1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:23,876 Speaker 1: Pushkin Hay Slight Changers. I have some exciting news. I've 2 00:00:23,916 --> 00:00:27,236 Speaker 1: written a book. It's called The Other Side of Change, 3 00:00:27,716 --> 00:00:31,916 Speaker 1: Who we become when life makes other plans. It's available 4 00:00:31,996 --> 00:00:35,996 Speaker 1: for pre order today at changewithmaya dot com slash book. 5 00:00:36,596 --> 00:00:39,836 Speaker 1: I would appreciate your early support of this project so much. 6 00:00:40,476 --> 00:00:43,316 Speaker 1: Is truly the thing I'm most proud to have created. 7 00:00:44,236 --> 00:00:46,156 Speaker 1: You can find the link to pre order in our 8 00:00:46,196 --> 00:00:49,596 Speaker 1: episode description. Thanks so much, and now onto the show, 9 00:01:00,476 --> 00:01:03,636 Speaker 1: Hay Light Changers. Just a heads up, there's a brief 10 00:01:03,676 --> 00:01:06,436 Speaker 1: mention of sexual assault in this episode at the five 11 00:01:06,516 --> 00:01:09,316 Speaker 1: minute mark. It's not explicit, but if you want to 12 00:01:09,356 --> 00:01:11,996 Speaker 1: skip over that minute, please do and take care. 13 00:01:14,156 --> 00:01:19,156 Speaker 2: I actually thought that I would feel safe if everybody 14 00:01:19,276 --> 00:01:25,756 Speaker 2: around me was okay, that if everybody around me was happy, 15 00:01:25,836 --> 00:01:30,316 Speaker 2: if everybody around me was not disappointed, if everybody around 16 00:01:30,356 --> 00:01:35,076 Speaker 2: me liked me or thought I was cool, then I 17 00:01:35,116 --> 00:01:35,876 Speaker 2: would be okay. 18 00:01:37,036 --> 00:01:40,636 Speaker 1: Mel Robbins is a best selling author and podcast host. 19 00:01:41,436 --> 00:01:44,756 Speaker 2: And the problem with that is that the one thing 20 00:01:44,836 --> 00:01:48,876 Speaker 2: you can't control in life is other people, and so 21 00:01:49,036 --> 00:01:53,276 Speaker 2: to hand your safety and sense of self over to 22 00:01:53,396 --> 00:01:56,996 Speaker 2: other people's moods and thoughts and expectations of you means 23 00:01:57,036 --> 00:02:01,196 Speaker 2: you will forever in your entire life, always feel as 24 00:02:01,276 --> 00:02:04,156 Speaker 2: though you're not in control of what's happening. 25 00:02:04,796 --> 00:02:08,956 Speaker 1: On today's show. To all my people, pleasers, control freaks, 26 00:02:09,196 --> 00:02:13,796 Speaker 1: perfectionists and micromanagers, we're learning to let it all go. 27 00:02:15,716 --> 00:02:19,716 Speaker 1: I'm Maya Schunker, as scientist who studies human behavior, and 28 00:02:19,836 --> 00:02:22,636 Speaker 1: this is a slight change of plans. I show about 29 00:02:22,636 --> 00:02:25,036 Speaker 1: who we are and who we become in the face 30 00:02:25,196 --> 00:02:37,036 Speaker 1: of a big change. If you've ever found yourself bending 31 00:02:37,076 --> 00:02:41,116 Speaker 1: over backwards to meet other people's expectations or trying to 32 00:02:41,196 --> 00:02:44,996 Speaker 1: control their emotions and behaviors, I promise that you are 33 00:02:45,076 --> 00:02:49,716 Speaker 1: not alone. Mel Robbin's, host of the wildly popular The 34 00:02:49,716 --> 00:02:53,236 Speaker 1: Mel Robins podcast, has a new book out called The 35 00:02:53,316 --> 00:02:56,556 Speaker 1: Let Them Theory. It's all about how to stop giving 36 00:02:56,596 --> 00:02:59,756 Speaker 1: other people so much power and to let go of 37 00:02:59,796 --> 00:03:03,476 Speaker 1: our need to control them. To better understand her interest 38 00:03:03,556 --> 00:03:06,556 Speaker 1: in this philosophy, I wanted to know more about Mel's 39 00:03:06,596 --> 00:03:11,076 Speaker 1: relationship with control. What kind of messages do you feel 40 00:03:11,276 --> 00:03:14,676 Speaker 1: that you were absorbing as a child about what it 41 00:03:14,796 --> 00:03:17,476 Speaker 1: meant to live a good life, to live at a 42 00:03:17,556 --> 00:03:18,156 Speaker 1: happy life. 43 00:03:19,556 --> 00:03:22,916 Speaker 2: You know this is a difficult question for me to answer, 44 00:03:23,436 --> 00:03:26,196 Speaker 2: I don't have a lot of memories from my childhood, 45 00:03:27,276 --> 00:03:33,356 Speaker 2: and I know why, and the reason why is because 46 00:03:33,756 --> 00:03:36,716 Speaker 2: I basically kind of lived in a constant state of 47 00:03:36,756 --> 00:03:39,876 Speaker 2: being on edge or being in fight or flight, which 48 00:03:39,916 --> 00:03:44,196 Speaker 2: is very common if you have any past trauma, or 49 00:03:44,276 --> 00:03:48,116 Speaker 2: if you have had any adverse childhood experiences, or if 50 00:03:48,196 --> 00:03:51,356 Speaker 2: you just live in a household where the moods of 51 00:03:51,396 --> 00:03:54,156 Speaker 2: the adults are chaotic, or there are things going on 52 00:03:54,516 --> 00:03:57,036 Speaker 2: that you shouldn't have to deal with as a child. 53 00:03:57,356 --> 00:04:00,676 Speaker 2: But what I would say is that when I think 54 00:04:00,716 --> 00:04:05,436 Speaker 2: about my childhood and very happy times, my mom and 55 00:04:05,476 --> 00:04:07,876 Speaker 2: I would always go to the farmer's market and all 56 00:04:07,956 --> 00:04:12,156 Speaker 2: the farmers would be at their various stalls. My mom 57 00:04:12,636 --> 00:04:17,596 Speaker 2: knew every single person there. She knew whether they had 58 00:04:17,676 --> 00:04:20,196 Speaker 2: kids or grandkids, she knew the name of the dogs. 59 00:04:20,516 --> 00:04:23,676 Speaker 2: As she would be picking up the radishes or squeezing 60 00:04:23,716 --> 00:04:26,716 Speaker 2: the peaches, they'd be chatting up a storm about the 61 00:04:26,756 --> 00:04:29,316 Speaker 2: weather or the crops, or how their. 62 00:04:29,236 --> 00:04:32,836 Speaker 3: Kid is doing. And it really made. 63 00:04:32,716 --> 00:04:35,796 Speaker 2: An impression on me. And so I would say, a 64 00:04:35,836 --> 00:04:38,476 Speaker 2: good life, in my mind, is one where you are 65 00:04:38,916 --> 00:04:42,756 Speaker 2: living your life in relation to other people, and you 66 00:04:42,836 --> 00:04:45,756 Speaker 2: are showing up in a way where you're interested in 67 00:04:45,796 --> 00:04:47,876 Speaker 2: them and their well being and what they're doing. 68 00:04:48,636 --> 00:04:52,356 Speaker 1: It's so interesting because you said living a good life 69 00:04:52,396 --> 00:04:54,636 Speaker 1: is about living in relation to others, and I can 70 00:04:54,676 --> 00:04:57,076 Speaker 1: see that that can be a double edged sword. You 71 00:04:57,156 --> 00:04:59,996 Speaker 1: might become beholden to the views of others and their 72 00:04:59,996 --> 00:05:02,676 Speaker 1: impression of you. And I am curious to know you 73 00:05:02,756 --> 00:05:04,956 Speaker 1: mentioned that you were kind of in a constant state 74 00:05:05,116 --> 00:05:10,916 Speaker 1: of being on edge, probably hypervigilant. Tell me more about 75 00:05:11,356 --> 00:05:14,716 Speaker 1: what your relationship with control was like as it pertained 76 00:05:14,756 --> 00:05:18,196 Speaker 1: to trying to control your environment and the people in it. 77 00:05:19,316 --> 00:05:22,436 Speaker 2: For me as a young kid, it was a lot 78 00:05:22,476 --> 00:05:25,556 Speaker 2: around wondering what mood certain people were going to be 79 00:05:25,596 --> 00:05:29,996 Speaker 2: in in the household, and this sense that I have 80 00:05:30,236 --> 00:05:34,596 Speaker 2: to behave a certain way in order to make sure 81 00:05:34,876 --> 00:05:38,556 Speaker 2: that things are peaceful or people are happy, or nobody's 82 00:05:38,556 --> 00:05:41,876 Speaker 2: mad at me. Like it was just this constant state 83 00:05:41,996 --> 00:05:46,476 Speaker 2: of something's wrong, I'm about to get in trouble, and. 84 00:05:46,516 --> 00:05:48,956 Speaker 3: The you know, I like. 85 00:05:49,156 --> 00:05:50,996 Speaker 2: The thing that I should say is that I had 86 00:05:50,996 --> 00:05:53,076 Speaker 2: this incident when I was in the fourth grade where 87 00:05:53,156 --> 00:05:55,396 Speaker 2: I woke up in the middle of the night at 88 00:05:55,396 --> 00:05:57,676 Speaker 2: a big family ski trip and there was an older 89 00:05:57,756 --> 00:06:00,836 Speaker 2: kid on top of me, and you know, they were 90 00:06:00,876 --> 00:06:04,756 Speaker 2: doing something very inappropriate, and I possmed. I just froze 91 00:06:04,836 --> 00:06:07,036 Speaker 2: and rolled over and I don't even remember how it 92 00:06:07,156 --> 00:06:10,356 Speaker 2: ended because I left my body. And I think from 93 00:06:10,356 --> 00:06:14,476 Speaker 2: that point forward, I had this intense sense in my 94 00:06:14,596 --> 00:06:19,156 Speaker 2: body that something was terribly wrong, and I didn't tell anybody. 95 00:06:19,716 --> 00:06:23,316 Speaker 2: And I didn't tell anybody because as an eight year old, 96 00:06:23,516 --> 00:06:26,316 Speaker 2: I thought somehow I had done something wrong, which meant 97 00:06:26,316 --> 00:06:28,956 Speaker 2: I was going to get in trouble. And that core 98 00:06:29,076 --> 00:06:33,076 Speaker 2: experience I did something wrong and waking up every morning 99 00:06:33,116 --> 00:06:37,156 Speaker 2: feeling like something bad has happened is what haunted me 100 00:06:37,956 --> 00:06:42,356 Speaker 2: all the way into my thirties because I suppressed the experience. 101 00:06:43,236 --> 00:06:48,596 Speaker 2: And so to your question, the way that control played 102 00:06:48,636 --> 00:06:52,996 Speaker 2: out for me is I outsourced it. I actually thought 103 00:06:53,036 --> 00:06:59,076 Speaker 2: that I would feel safe if everybody around me was okay, 104 00:07:00,156 --> 00:07:04,796 Speaker 2: that if everybody around me was happy, if everybody around 105 00:07:04,836 --> 00:07:08,636 Speaker 2: me was not disappointed, if everybody around me liked me 106 00:07:08,796 --> 00:07:13,516 Speaker 2: or thought I was cool, then I would be okay. 107 00:07:14,276 --> 00:07:17,996 Speaker 2: And the problem with that, when we unpack it, is 108 00:07:17,996 --> 00:07:23,316 Speaker 2: that that is the one thing and the one strategy 109 00:07:23,436 --> 00:07:27,036 Speaker 2: that actually will never put you in control of anything, 110 00:07:27,156 --> 00:07:30,756 Speaker 2: because the one thing you can't control in life is 111 00:07:30,836 --> 00:07:33,476 Speaker 2: other people. You can't control what they think, what they do, 112 00:07:33,556 --> 00:07:36,156 Speaker 2: how they feel, what they expect of you, the lies 113 00:07:36,196 --> 00:07:40,156 Speaker 2: they might tell, the disappointment they You can't control any 114 00:07:40,196 --> 00:07:44,116 Speaker 2: of that. And so to hand your safety and sense 115 00:07:44,156 --> 00:07:48,676 Speaker 2: of self over to other people's moods and thoughts and 116 00:07:48,756 --> 00:07:52,636 Speaker 2: expectations of you means you will, forever in your entire life, 117 00:07:52,836 --> 00:07:57,036 Speaker 2: always feel as though you're not in control of what's happening. 118 00:07:57,396 --> 00:07:58,476 Speaker 3: Yeah. 119 00:07:58,596 --> 00:08:00,596 Speaker 1: What is so interesting to me, though, is that you 120 00:08:01,476 --> 00:08:04,396 Speaker 1: place an even greater burden on yourself because you are 121 00:08:04,436 --> 00:08:08,956 Speaker 1: both giving power to others while seating that their behavior 122 00:08:09,236 --> 00:08:13,396 Speaker 1: we're a direct function of you and your behaviors. What 123 00:08:13,516 --> 00:08:17,756 Speaker 1: an enormous weight to carry as a young child. And 124 00:08:17,876 --> 00:08:20,076 Speaker 1: I feel like what's coming to mind for me is 125 00:08:20,556 --> 00:08:24,556 Speaker 1: the illusion of control, where we overestimate the degree to 126 00:08:24,556 --> 00:08:27,356 Speaker 1: which we determine outcomes in our lives. But what's really 127 00:08:27,356 --> 00:08:29,836 Speaker 1: interesting is that they study people and they found that 128 00:08:31,316 --> 00:08:34,556 Speaker 1: there's a continuum here where you can move from either 129 00:08:34,596 --> 00:08:38,156 Speaker 1: an internal locus of control to an external locus of control, 130 00:08:38,756 --> 00:08:41,796 Speaker 1: and people with an external locus of control are much 131 00:08:41,836 --> 00:08:45,476 Speaker 1: more comfortable with uncertainty and ambiguity and things not quite 132 00:08:45,476 --> 00:08:49,116 Speaker 1: going to plan because they understand that exogenous factors, the 133 00:08:49,156 --> 00:08:52,916 Speaker 1: external world actually plays a really big role in dictating 134 00:08:52,916 --> 00:08:56,236 Speaker 1: our lives. Then, people who are in the internal locus 135 00:08:56,276 --> 00:09:00,276 Speaker 1: of control, we ascribe events to our own doing, so 136 00:09:00,396 --> 00:09:03,476 Speaker 1: our successes are ours, and our failures are ours, and 137 00:09:03,516 --> 00:09:07,156 Speaker 1: the behaviors of others are ours. Right, And a strong 138 00:09:07,196 --> 00:09:11,036 Speaker 1: internal locus of control is association with greater happiness and 139 00:09:11,076 --> 00:09:15,676 Speaker 1: greater well being and greater purpose overall, except that when 140 00:09:15,716 --> 00:09:18,996 Speaker 1: things don't go according to plan, we're much more likely 141 00:09:19,276 --> 00:09:22,516 Speaker 1: to self blame. We're much more likely to self break 142 00:09:23,236 --> 00:09:27,396 Speaker 1: because we are the only explanation for why things didn't 143 00:09:27,436 --> 00:09:30,916 Speaker 1: go well. And so what I'm hearing is that young 144 00:09:30,996 --> 00:09:36,316 Speaker 1: Mele developed a really powerful internal locus of control where 145 00:09:36,316 --> 00:09:39,476 Speaker 1: everything fell back on you. That's a lot. 146 00:09:39,916 --> 00:09:40,596 Speaker 3: It is a lot. 147 00:09:40,916 --> 00:09:43,716 Speaker 1: So you have this relationship with control when you're a child, 148 00:09:43,756 --> 00:09:47,356 Speaker 1: and then as an adult you run up against the 149 00:09:47,516 --> 00:09:51,756 Speaker 1: limits of your ability to maintain that equanimity in your 150 00:09:51,836 --> 00:09:55,156 Speaker 1: environment when you and your family hit rock bottom, right, 151 00:09:55,196 --> 00:09:58,676 Speaker 1: your husband's business crashes as a result of the Great Recession. 152 00:09:59,276 --> 00:10:00,436 Speaker 3: Oh, and stupidity. 153 00:10:00,596 --> 00:10:02,996 Speaker 2: I mean, like, there's a lot of stupid, like myself 154 00:10:02,996 --> 00:10:05,436 Speaker 2: included like, I'm not going to blame it out there, like. 155 00:10:05,396 --> 00:10:07,876 Speaker 3: There are some things that we did that were just dumb. 156 00:10:07,956 --> 00:10:10,436 Speaker 1: Yeah, I should have known internal locus of control. Gal. 157 00:10:10,516 --> 00:10:12,916 Speaker 1: Of course, you're going to make sure that you take accountability. 158 00:10:13,076 --> 00:10:16,716 Speaker 1: I love this. You're eight hundred thousand dollars in debt 159 00:10:17,116 --> 00:10:19,716 Speaker 1: at this point. You were in your early forty one, 160 00:10:19,796 --> 00:10:23,276 Speaker 1: forty one yep, trying to raise three kids. Bring me 161 00:10:23,396 --> 00:10:26,916 Speaker 1: back to that moment and what that might have taught 162 00:10:26,956 --> 00:10:29,596 Speaker 1: you or not taught you about kind of the limits 163 00:10:29,596 --> 00:10:31,436 Speaker 1: of your control, or how you might want to rethink 164 00:10:31,476 --> 00:10:32,316 Speaker 1: that relationship. 165 00:10:33,036 --> 00:10:34,676 Speaker 2: Oh my god, there's so much that it taught me. 166 00:10:35,116 --> 00:10:37,796 Speaker 2: You know, when you're in a rock bottom moment, the 167 00:10:37,836 --> 00:10:40,436 Speaker 2: worst thing somebody can say to you is you're going 168 00:10:40,476 --> 00:10:42,396 Speaker 2: to look back on this as a blessing, Like you 169 00:10:42,436 --> 00:10:44,196 Speaker 2: literally want to punch people in the face. 170 00:10:45,196 --> 00:10:45,276 Speaker 4: No. 171 00:10:45,356 --> 00:10:47,996 Speaker 2: I was forty one, and you know, look, I'm a 172 00:10:48,276 --> 00:10:51,836 Speaker 2: very ambitious person, and never in my life had I 173 00:10:51,876 --> 00:10:54,636 Speaker 2: made a vision board where I had cut out images 174 00:10:54,676 --> 00:11:01,636 Speaker 2: that said bankruptcy, alcoholism, million dollars in debt, foreclosure, divorce. 175 00:11:02,436 --> 00:11:04,556 Speaker 2: That was not part of the plan, of course, And 176 00:11:04,636 --> 00:11:08,316 Speaker 2: what's interesting is We can talk reinvention and pivots and 177 00:11:08,676 --> 00:11:13,756 Speaker 2: everything saying all we want right, but when it's happening 178 00:11:13,836 --> 00:11:20,836 Speaker 2: to you, it's a different experience because what happens is 179 00:11:20,876 --> 00:11:25,236 Speaker 2: your emotions takeover and you start to tell yourself a 180 00:11:25,276 --> 00:11:26,916 Speaker 2: story that you're never going to get out of this. 181 00:11:26,956 --> 00:11:29,036 Speaker 2: And for me, what that meant is, I lost my job. 182 00:11:29,796 --> 00:11:31,916 Speaker 2: We were eight hundred thousand dollars in debt because we 183 00:11:31,916 --> 00:11:36,996 Speaker 2: were complete freaking idiots by cashing out our life savings 184 00:11:37,036 --> 00:11:39,836 Speaker 2: and shoving it into his business. After one location of 185 00:11:39,876 --> 00:11:43,196 Speaker 2: a pizza restaurant went okay, and then all of a sudden, 186 00:11:43,356 --> 00:11:46,276 Speaker 2: you know, two thousand and seven hits two thousand and eight, 187 00:11:46,476 --> 00:11:49,596 Speaker 2: the recession hits our houses upside down. We have leans 188 00:11:49,636 --> 00:11:53,116 Speaker 2: on it. We've cashed out everything we own. I've got 189 00:11:53,116 --> 00:11:55,476 Speaker 2: three kids under the age of ten. Friends and family 190 00:11:55,516 --> 00:11:59,756 Speaker 2: have invested in this business, and the bills are starting 191 00:11:59,796 --> 00:12:03,196 Speaker 2: to pile up on the counter, and I'm pulling a 192 00:12:03,316 --> 00:12:05,276 Speaker 2: kid out of town soccer because we can't afford one 193 00:12:05,316 --> 00:12:09,836 Speaker 2: hundred and twenty five dollars. And I'm having trouble some 194 00:12:09,876 --> 00:12:11,796 Speaker 2: weeks because Chris is not getting paid and I don't 195 00:12:11,836 --> 00:12:15,196 Speaker 2: have a job. Putting gas in the car tank. Financial 196 00:12:15,236 --> 00:12:21,236 Speaker 2: stress is crushing and you can't escape it, and there's 197 00:12:21,236 --> 00:12:25,276 Speaker 2: a lot of shame around it, and so I drank 198 00:12:25,316 --> 00:12:29,236 Speaker 2: myself into the ground. I became very angry and avoidant. 199 00:12:29,396 --> 00:12:33,636 Speaker 2: I started blaming everything on my husband, and I became paralyzed. 200 00:12:34,036 --> 00:12:36,556 Speaker 2: I was in like a frozen trauma response, which is 201 00:12:36,596 --> 00:12:38,156 Speaker 2: the exact same thing that happened to me when I 202 00:12:38,236 --> 00:12:41,436 Speaker 2: was eight years old. And because I felt like I 203 00:12:41,476 --> 00:12:44,476 Speaker 2: couldn't control everything that was happening, I just ran away 204 00:12:44,476 --> 00:12:46,916 Speaker 2: from it. I got drunk, I yelled at my husband. 205 00:12:47,236 --> 00:12:49,796 Speaker 2: I became a person. I didn't recognize the kids were 206 00:12:49,796 --> 00:12:54,436 Speaker 2: missing the bus. I couldn't or I didn't think I 207 00:12:54,476 --> 00:12:59,756 Speaker 2: could control the demise that was looming. But I could 208 00:13:00,076 --> 00:13:05,516 Speaker 2: control avoiding it. I could hit the snooze button six times. 209 00:13:06,076 --> 00:13:11,596 Speaker 2: I could numb myself at night, I could avoid the bills. 210 00:13:11,596 --> 00:13:16,716 Speaker 2: Because avoidance is a major form of control, anger is 211 00:13:16,756 --> 00:13:21,316 Speaker 2: a major form of controlled and so my control was 212 00:13:21,356 --> 00:13:25,116 Speaker 2: still there, it was just being aimed at the wrong things. 213 00:13:25,316 --> 00:13:28,236 Speaker 1: Yeah, so that leads us to the need for let 214 00:13:28,276 --> 00:13:31,036 Speaker 1: them bring me back to the moment when you were 215 00:13:31,076 --> 00:13:34,036 Speaker 1: first exposed to it. Obviously, it's rooted in ancient wisdom. 216 00:13:34,076 --> 00:13:36,716 Speaker 1: But you know, I hear wise things all the time, 217 00:13:36,796 --> 00:13:38,236 Speaker 1: and they kind of can just go in one year 218 00:13:38,276 --> 00:13:40,196 Speaker 1: and out the other, Like I want to know what 219 00:13:40,316 --> 00:13:43,076 Speaker 1: made it stick for you in that moment in your life. 220 00:13:43,756 --> 00:13:47,596 Speaker 2: I've been trying to be less controlling my whole life. 221 00:13:47,676 --> 00:13:51,316 Speaker 2: I've tried to be stoic. I have tried to be 222 00:13:51,356 --> 00:13:56,196 Speaker 2: more Buddhist. I have tried to manage my response. And 223 00:13:56,196 --> 00:14:00,196 Speaker 2: it's one thing when you're sharing ideas. It's a whole 224 00:14:00,236 --> 00:14:05,036 Speaker 2: other thing when the teacher shows up and the student 225 00:14:05,156 --> 00:14:10,276 Speaker 2: is ready. It's the difference between concept and the moment 226 00:14:11,316 --> 00:14:16,836 Speaker 2: when that concept hits you like a freaking sledgeing, exactly. 227 00:14:17,276 --> 00:14:19,836 Speaker 2: And so I was at the high school prom with 228 00:14:19,876 --> 00:14:25,076 Speaker 2: my son. I was being a super micromanagy mom, really annoying. 229 00:14:25,156 --> 00:14:27,236 Speaker 2: If you've ever been in a situation where you're all 230 00:14:27,276 --> 00:14:29,116 Speaker 2: stressed and the words are coming out of your mouth 231 00:14:29,116 --> 00:14:30,716 Speaker 2: and you wish you could shove them back in, that 232 00:14:30,836 --> 00:14:31,076 Speaker 2: was me. 233 00:14:31,676 --> 00:14:32,316 Speaker 3: So I was just. 234 00:14:32,316 --> 00:14:34,356 Speaker 2: Micromanaging him, you know, you got a tux and let 235 00:14:34,396 --> 00:14:36,796 Speaker 2: me tee the thing, and shoving the flowers at him 236 00:14:36,876 --> 00:14:39,276 Speaker 2: even though his date doesn't want a corsage. And now 237 00:14:39,276 --> 00:14:41,116 Speaker 2: it's starting to rain, and I'm like, you can't get 238 00:14:41,116 --> 00:14:43,116 Speaker 2: your shoes wet, and her hair is going to get ruined, 239 00:14:43,156 --> 00:14:45,316 Speaker 2: and you can't go to the taco stand before dinner 240 00:14:45,356 --> 00:14:47,316 Speaker 2: because then your tuxedo is going to be wet. And 241 00:14:47,356 --> 00:14:52,076 Speaker 2: my daughter was home and she reaches out and grabs 242 00:14:52,116 --> 00:14:56,036 Speaker 2: my bicep and she's like, you're being annoying. If she 243 00:14:56,076 --> 00:14:58,596 Speaker 2: doesn't want flowers, letter, if it's going to ruin his shoes, 244 00:14:58,676 --> 00:15:00,996 Speaker 2: let them. If he wants to get soaking wet, let them. 245 00:15:00,996 --> 00:15:02,636 Speaker 2: If she's going to ruin her hair, letter, And it 246 00:15:02,676 --> 00:15:04,476 Speaker 2: was just like this, let them, let them, let them. 247 00:15:04,556 --> 00:15:07,596 Speaker 2: It's their prom, not yours for crying out loud. Let 248 00:15:07,636 --> 00:15:11,356 Speaker 2: them do what they want to do. And there was 249 00:15:11,436 --> 00:15:14,516 Speaker 2: just something about the nails of my biceps and the 250 00:15:14,676 --> 00:15:17,796 Speaker 2: cringe in her voice and the cascade of the let, 251 00:15:17,876 --> 00:15:21,516 Speaker 2: let let that my shoulders has dropped, and I just 252 00:15:21,636 --> 00:15:24,796 Speaker 2: kind of had this obvious epiphany where I'm just like, 253 00:15:25,796 --> 00:15:26,916 Speaker 2: why am I worried about this? 254 00:15:28,636 --> 00:15:31,476 Speaker 3: Seriously? Why why am I? Why am I concerned about this? 255 00:15:32,196 --> 00:15:36,676 Speaker 2: And the second that I just stopped trying to control it, 256 00:15:36,756 --> 00:15:40,396 Speaker 2: I felt peace, And then I could see that everybody 257 00:15:40,396 --> 00:15:46,436 Speaker 2: around me felt peaceful, And so I just started to say, 258 00:15:46,556 --> 00:15:51,436 Speaker 2: let them in any moment in my life where things 259 00:15:51,516 --> 00:15:54,676 Speaker 2: just felt stressful, traffic, let them the person's root in 260 00:15:54,716 --> 00:15:56,556 Speaker 2: front of me. You know, some days I've got the 261 00:15:56,676 --> 00:15:58,316 Speaker 2: energy to step in and be like, hey, you know, 262 00:15:58,596 --> 00:15:59,596 Speaker 2: they're they're they're doing the. 263 00:15:59,516 --> 00:16:00,036 Speaker 3: Best they can. 264 00:16:00,196 --> 00:16:01,996 Speaker 2: Some days they're just like, let them. I'm not going 265 00:16:02,076 --> 00:16:04,436 Speaker 2: to be the you know, manners police today. I just 266 00:16:04,476 --> 00:16:06,276 Speaker 2: don't have the energy for this. My mom's in a 267 00:16:06,316 --> 00:16:08,156 Speaker 2: bad mood, let her be in a bad mood. My 268 00:16:08,236 --> 00:16:11,116 Speaker 2: dad's disappointed, to be disappointed, let me show up with 269 00:16:11,116 --> 00:16:12,756 Speaker 2: a little bit more compassion. And so I just started 270 00:16:12,756 --> 00:16:15,476 Speaker 2: saying let them, let them, let them. And it was 271 00:16:15,636 --> 00:16:21,756 Speaker 2: so profound. And the first insight that I had was 272 00:16:21,836 --> 00:16:28,716 Speaker 2: I could not believe how much time I wasted on 273 00:16:29,036 --> 00:16:37,436 Speaker 2: stupid things. I couldn't believe how stressed out I was 274 00:16:37,876 --> 00:16:43,116 Speaker 2: due to dumb things. If you allow zoom calls and 275 00:16:43,276 --> 00:16:47,436 Speaker 2: traffic and you know, somebody's mood or a curt email 276 00:16:47,596 --> 00:16:51,916 Speaker 2: to constantly keep your amygdala humming and your body in 277 00:16:51,956 --> 00:16:54,716 Speaker 2: a stressed out state, you're gonna go home and take 278 00:16:54,716 --> 00:16:56,836 Speaker 2: it out in your family. And that's why you don't 279 00:16:56,836 --> 00:16:57,316 Speaker 2: have time and. 280 00:16:57,356 --> 00:16:59,836 Speaker 1: Energy because it's being sad. 281 00:16:59,556 --> 00:17:03,556 Speaker 2: Because it's getting drained all day long. Yes, And so 282 00:17:03,596 --> 00:17:09,156 Speaker 2: it became this like boundary with the world where I 283 00:17:09,196 --> 00:17:12,076 Speaker 2: started to recognize, wait a minute, my time and energy 284 00:17:13,036 --> 00:17:17,196 Speaker 2: has value, and I need to protect that time and 285 00:17:17,316 --> 00:17:21,836 Speaker 2: energy because I want to use that time and energy 286 00:17:21,876 --> 00:17:24,316 Speaker 2: to either better my life or to better the world 287 00:17:24,356 --> 00:17:28,036 Speaker 2: around me. And if I'm constantly allowing all this stuff 288 00:17:28,036 --> 00:17:31,236 Speaker 2: to drain me, I'm never going to have the energy 289 00:17:31,636 --> 00:17:34,396 Speaker 2: to do anything about what's wrong in the world or 290 00:17:34,836 --> 00:17:38,596 Speaker 2: what as bothering me in my relationships or with my health. 291 00:17:42,836 --> 00:17:44,996 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with a slight change 292 00:17:45,036 --> 00:17:56,916 Speaker 1: of plans. On the night of her son's prom, Mel 293 00:17:57,036 --> 00:18:01,236 Speaker 1: Robbins was trying to micromanage everything, like where her son 294 00:18:01,316 --> 00:18:03,916 Speaker 1: and his friend should go for dinner or whether his 295 00:18:04,036 --> 00:18:08,356 Speaker 1: date should wear a corsage. Then Mel's daughter said two 296 00:18:08,396 --> 00:18:12,436 Speaker 1: simple words, it's let them, And for whatever reason, it 297 00:18:12,556 --> 00:18:16,036 Speaker 1: was exactly what Mel needed to hear. She's held onto 298 00:18:16,076 --> 00:18:19,316 Speaker 1: those words ever since and has written an entire book 299 00:18:19,316 --> 00:18:22,036 Speaker 1: about it. I asked her to break it down in 300 00:18:22,116 --> 00:18:22,716 Speaker 1: more detail. 301 00:18:22,756 --> 00:18:25,396 Speaker 3: For me, the let them theory is simple. 302 00:18:26,796 --> 00:18:29,476 Speaker 2: The more you let other people live their lives the 303 00:18:29,476 --> 00:18:34,076 Speaker 2: better your life gets, and the more you learn how 304 00:18:34,076 --> 00:18:36,156 Speaker 2: to let people be who they are and who they're not, 305 00:18:37,636 --> 00:18:41,996 Speaker 2: the better your relationships get. And the theory itself is 306 00:18:42,036 --> 00:18:44,956 Speaker 2: about power and control, and the way that it works 307 00:18:44,996 --> 00:18:49,796 Speaker 2: is simple. There are two steps, and the first step 308 00:18:49,836 --> 00:18:53,436 Speaker 2: gets all of the fame, but it's the second step 309 00:18:53,476 --> 00:18:56,596 Speaker 2: that's actually where your power is. The first part is 310 00:18:56,836 --> 00:18:59,476 Speaker 2: let them. So when you're stressed out, when you're annoyed, 311 00:18:59,516 --> 00:19:03,556 Speaker 2: when you're hurt, when you're frustrated, when you're confused, when 312 00:19:03,636 --> 00:19:09,116 Speaker 2: you're just like feeling like somebody's disrespecting you or hurting you. 313 00:19:09,156 --> 00:19:11,476 Speaker 2: As weird as it sounds, you're going to quietly say 314 00:19:11,556 --> 00:19:14,996 Speaker 2: to yourself, let them. And I want to be very 315 00:19:14,996 --> 00:19:18,276 Speaker 2: clear about something. This is not a theory that says 316 00:19:18,356 --> 00:19:21,756 Speaker 2: you should let people hurt you. This is a theory 317 00:19:21,916 --> 00:19:25,356 Speaker 2: about where your control is and where your power is. 318 00:19:26,116 --> 00:19:27,756 Speaker 2: And the mistake that we make when we're in a 319 00:19:27,796 --> 00:19:32,756 Speaker 2: situation where there is disrespect or there is some kind 320 00:19:32,756 --> 00:19:38,716 Speaker 2: of hurtful behavior is we believe that that other person 321 00:19:38,796 --> 00:19:44,556 Speaker 2: is going to change. We get gas lit into thinking 322 00:19:45,436 --> 00:19:50,396 Speaker 2: that the power is in changing the other person. Let 323 00:19:50,436 --> 00:19:54,636 Speaker 2: them is simply a tool that reminds you that hoping 324 00:19:54,676 --> 00:19:58,196 Speaker 2: that they're going to change, or pouring time and energy 325 00:19:58,276 --> 00:20:02,436 Speaker 2: into trying to make someone else change isn't where your 326 00:20:02,516 --> 00:20:06,596 Speaker 2: power is. Let them is kind of you saying, Okay, 327 00:20:06,716 --> 00:20:09,076 Speaker 2: this is who this person is. Their behavior is the truth. 328 00:20:09,276 --> 00:20:12,876 Speaker 2: Let me is the second part. Let me is where 329 00:20:12,916 --> 00:20:15,236 Speaker 2: you say to yourself, I can't control this other person. 330 00:20:16,716 --> 00:20:18,756 Speaker 2: Let me decide what I'm going to think about this, 331 00:20:19,036 --> 00:20:22,036 Speaker 2: Let me decide what I'm going to do or don't 332 00:20:22,276 --> 00:20:26,356 Speaker 2: do about this, and let me decide how I'm going 333 00:20:26,396 --> 00:20:28,476 Speaker 2: to process my own feelings about this. 334 00:20:29,276 --> 00:20:31,436 Speaker 3: And so in normal day to. 335 00:20:31,476 --> 00:20:35,516 Speaker 2: Day's circumstances, the way that this works is if somebody's disappointed, 336 00:20:35,756 --> 00:20:36,836 Speaker 2: let them be disappointed. 337 00:20:37,276 --> 00:20:38,156 Speaker 3: You can't make it. 338 00:20:38,076 --> 00:20:40,476 Speaker 2: To the thirty second birthday party where you're going to 339 00:20:40,556 --> 00:20:43,196 Speaker 2: meet at a Mexican restaurant and split a check with 340 00:20:43,236 --> 00:20:45,516 Speaker 2: fourteen people and not even talk to your friend that's 341 00:20:45,556 --> 00:20:48,196 Speaker 2: holding the birthday, and you've had a long day at 342 00:20:48,196 --> 00:20:50,756 Speaker 2: work and you just would rather go to a yoga. 343 00:20:50,556 --> 00:20:53,916 Speaker 1: Out of my brain, mel how do you know my life? Like? 344 00:20:53,996 --> 00:20:56,876 Speaker 2: Literally, let them be disappointed, because here's what I want. 345 00:20:56,756 --> 00:20:58,876 Speaker 1: You to a meditarian and I don't drink alcohol so 346 00:20:58,876 --> 00:21:00,716 Speaker 1: I always get ripped off when you do the fourteen 347 00:21:00,716 --> 00:21:01,796 Speaker 1: persons split. 348 00:21:01,836 --> 00:21:03,876 Speaker 2: Yes, because they're splitting the check and you didn't have 349 00:21:03,916 --> 00:21:05,716 Speaker 2: anything to drink, and it's loud as hell and you 350 00:21:05,716 --> 00:21:07,276 Speaker 2: don't want to be there, and it takes too long. 351 00:21:07,596 --> 00:21:10,556 Speaker 2: And so here's the thing. Let your friend be disappointed. 352 00:21:10,756 --> 00:21:12,556 Speaker 2: Tell them that you're not going to come tonight. It's 353 00:21:12,596 --> 00:21:15,956 Speaker 2: been a busy week at work. Let them be disappointed, acknowledgment, 354 00:21:16,036 --> 00:21:20,956 Speaker 2: and then let me remind myself that I need to 355 00:21:21,076 --> 00:21:23,716 Speaker 2: take care of myself. And let me ask my friend 356 00:21:24,276 --> 00:21:26,036 Speaker 2: if they'd be willing to go to a yoga class 357 00:21:26,076 --> 00:21:28,516 Speaker 2: this weekend and go get some tea, because I'd actually 358 00:21:28,516 --> 00:21:29,436 Speaker 2: like to catch up with you. 359 00:21:29,396 --> 00:21:30,716 Speaker 3: One on one. 360 00:21:30,916 --> 00:21:33,236 Speaker 2: And that's how you handle that situation and kind of 361 00:21:33,276 --> 00:21:37,116 Speaker 2: a day to day thing. In a more serious situation, 362 00:21:37,516 --> 00:21:41,956 Speaker 2: if you're dealing with somebody emotionally immature or that has 363 00:21:41,996 --> 00:21:46,076 Speaker 2: a very very challenging personality style, which I have in 364 00:21:46,116 --> 00:21:49,716 Speaker 2: my life, a person like this. The thing that I 365 00:21:49,756 --> 00:21:52,076 Speaker 2: can see now that I've been practicing let them and 366 00:21:52,156 --> 00:21:54,276 Speaker 2: let me, which is really about boundaries, what's mine to 367 00:21:54,316 --> 00:21:59,076 Speaker 2: own and what's yours? Down is I, for years just 368 00:21:59,156 --> 00:22:03,276 Speaker 2: expected this person to change. I wish they would. I 369 00:22:03,316 --> 00:22:05,516 Speaker 2: wish the dynamic would have been different, and so I 370 00:22:05,516 --> 00:22:11,556 Speaker 2: would go into every experienced And one of the things 371 00:22:11,596 --> 00:22:14,676 Speaker 2: that let them did is let them force me to 372 00:22:14,796 --> 00:22:20,036 Speaker 2: practice radical acceptance. Let them forced me to see the 373 00:22:20,116 --> 00:22:24,276 Speaker 2: situation and the person that I'm dealing with as they are, 374 00:22:25,276 --> 00:22:29,476 Speaker 2: instead of constantly explaining away behavior that I've been explaining 375 00:22:29,476 --> 00:22:32,836 Speaker 2: away for a very long time and somehow turning it 376 00:22:32,876 --> 00:22:36,476 Speaker 2: back as it's my fault. And then the let me 377 00:22:36,716 --> 00:22:42,116 Speaker 2: part helps me start to understand that if I'm going 378 00:22:42,196 --> 00:22:45,196 Speaker 2: to let this person be who they are, then let 379 00:22:45,316 --> 00:22:48,276 Speaker 2: me decide how much time and energy I'm going to 380 00:22:48,436 --> 00:22:52,236 Speaker 2: put with this person. Let me protect myself when I'm 381 00:22:52,276 --> 00:22:55,156 Speaker 2: around this person. Let me remind myself I can leave 382 00:22:55,156 --> 00:22:57,796 Speaker 2: a conversation or a dinner table, or a text chain, 383 00:22:57,956 --> 00:23:00,836 Speaker 2: or a date or an interview or like a family 384 00:23:00,916 --> 00:23:04,876 Speaker 2: thing anytime I want. And it starts to slowly remind 385 00:23:04,956 --> 00:23:07,916 Speaker 2: you in these dynamics that we get stuck with with 386 00:23:08,036 --> 00:23:11,236 Speaker 2: other people that there are little things you can do 387 00:23:11,396 --> 00:23:15,636 Speaker 2: when you first learn to separate yourself from managing the 388 00:23:15,716 --> 00:23:20,516 Speaker 2: other person and focus more on protecting yourself in the situation. 389 00:23:21,916 --> 00:23:24,116 Speaker 1: When it comes to accountability, which is something that you 390 00:23:24,236 --> 00:23:28,316 Speaker 1: raised when I reflect on my personal life. Granted, this 391 00:23:28,396 --> 00:23:31,276 Speaker 1: is also growing up in an Indian immigrant family where 392 00:23:31,316 --> 00:23:36,716 Speaker 1: my parents had no filters around giving me feedback. Some 393 00:23:36,756 --> 00:23:40,156 Speaker 1: of my greatest moments of growth stemmed from the people 394 00:23:40,196 --> 00:23:43,316 Speaker 1: in my life not just letting me be a certain way. 395 00:23:43,396 --> 00:23:46,236 Speaker 1: They didn't use let them. Instead, they were very forthcoming 396 00:23:46,276 --> 00:23:49,436 Speaker 1: with me about my weaknesses or their needs or maybe 397 00:23:49,556 --> 00:23:52,516 Speaker 1: how I'd even let them down. And so in their 398 00:23:52,676 --> 00:23:57,236 Speaker 1: articulating those feelings to me, I in turn was challenged 399 00:23:57,276 --> 00:23:59,916 Speaker 1: in some way. I was able to think differently. I 400 00:23:59,956 --> 00:24:02,676 Speaker 1: was able to do things differently. And so, how can 401 00:24:02,756 --> 00:24:05,476 Speaker 1: we apply the let them theory in the right places 402 00:24:05,516 --> 00:24:09,356 Speaker 1: so that it doesn't stop other people from engaging in 403 00:24:09,356 --> 00:24:12,916 Speaker 1: difficult conversations that could help us become better people, or 404 00:24:13,236 --> 00:24:15,556 Speaker 1: us engaging with other people to try to help them. 405 00:24:15,716 --> 00:24:19,756 Speaker 2: Yeah, let me is where you engage in the conversation. 406 00:24:20,476 --> 00:24:24,556 Speaker 2: Let me is where you tell the truth. Let me 407 00:24:25,076 --> 00:24:27,596 Speaker 2: is where you approach the people in your life that 408 00:24:27,636 --> 00:24:31,756 Speaker 2: you worried about, and instead of judging them, you approach 409 00:24:31,796 --> 00:24:35,276 Speaker 2: it with compassion and concern and support. Hey, I'm worried 410 00:24:35,316 --> 00:24:38,636 Speaker 2: about you. I notice you're not acting like yourself now 411 00:24:38,636 --> 00:24:41,556 Speaker 2: that you're dating this person? How are you feeling about 412 00:24:41,556 --> 00:24:44,876 Speaker 2: the relationship. I'm here to support you, you know, is 413 00:24:44,916 --> 00:24:47,516 Speaker 2: there anything I can do to support you? Is there 414 00:24:47,516 --> 00:24:50,196 Speaker 2: anything you want to do about this? Instead, what we 415 00:24:50,276 --> 00:24:53,716 Speaker 2: do is we avoid the conversation. We judge, We just 416 00:24:53,956 --> 00:24:57,636 Speaker 2: kind of don't have the hard conversation. We don't push 417 00:24:57,676 --> 00:25:01,476 Speaker 2: the people in our lives because we're afraid of having 418 00:25:02,076 --> 00:25:05,756 Speaker 2: any kind of tension with somebody. And so instead, I 419 00:25:05,796 --> 00:25:11,116 Speaker 2: think we have an epidemic of people walking around very 420 00:25:11,156 --> 00:25:18,396 Speaker 2: emotionally immature, stressed out, avoiding the conversations and avoiding taking 421 00:25:18,396 --> 00:25:22,996 Speaker 2: accountability for your needs and actually asking for it in 422 00:25:23,036 --> 00:25:27,476 Speaker 2: a way that is respectful and not emotional, instead of 423 00:25:27,716 --> 00:25:31,436 Speaker 2: constantly avoiding the conversation, then resenting people, and then being 424 00:25:31,436 --> 00:25:34,156 Speaker 2: pissed off. And so let's go back to what we've 425 00:25:34,156 --> 00:25:37,076 Speaker 2: been talking about. We've been talking about control. Every single 426 00:25:37,156 --> 00:25:39,356 Speaker 2: one of us needs to feel in control of our lives. 427 00:25:39,956 --> 00:25:42,076 Speaker 2: When we don't feel in control of our decisions or 428 00:25:42,076 --> 00:25:44,316 Speaker 2: our future, what we're doing this afternoon, or what's going 429 00:25:44,356 --> 00:25:47,676 Speaker 2: to happen at work tomorrow, we start to feel unsafe 430 00:25:47,756 --> 00:25:50,636 Speaker 2: and a little on edge, and the mistake that we 431 00:25:50,716 --> 00:25:53,316 Speaker 2: make is when someone else's behavior because they're dating somebody 432 00:25:53,316 --> 00:25:56,756 Speaker 2: we hate, or they're letting themselves go, or they're not 433 00:25:56,916 --> 00:26:00,396 Speaker 2: quote trying at school, or they can't get a job, 434 00:26:00,476 --> 00:26:03,676 Speaker 2: and now you're starting to worry that they're unmotivated. When 435 00:26:04,076 --> 00:26:07,116 Speaker 2: their behavior worries us, we now feel out of control. 436 00:26:07,196 --> 00:26:09,756 Speaker 2: So we step in and try to fix it. And 437 00:26:09,876 --> 00:26:12,396 Speaker 2: what happens when you do that is that you bump 438 00:26:12,476 --> 00:26:15,396 Speaker 2: up against that person's need for autonomy and control, and 439 00:26:15,436 --> 00:26:16,916 Speaker 2: so they're not going to do what you ask them 440 00:26:16,916 --> 00:26:17,116 Speaker 2: to do. 441 00:26:17,156 --> 00:26:19,116 Speaker 3: They might do it once to appease you and get 442 00:26:19,156 --> 00:26:20,996 Speaker 3: you authors back, yes. 443 00:26:21,196 --> 00:26:25,356 Speaker 2: But they're not actually going to create lasting change because 444 00:26:25,396 --> 00:26:28,596 Speaker 2: the change for a person has to come from within. 445 00:26:29,476 --> 00:26:31,916 Speaker 2: And so one of the reasons why the let them 446 00:26:31,956 --> 00:26:34,596 Speaker 2: theory is going to help you in situations where somebody 447 00:26:35,236 --> 00:26:36,556 Speaker 2: is in your life and you want to change them, 448 00:26:36,596 --> 00:26:38,636 Speaker 2: and we all we want to change everybody in our lives, 449 00:26:38,956 --> 00:26:40,236 Speaker 2: got opinions about everybody. 450 00:26:40,636 --> 00:26:42,476 Speaker 3: So the way that you do is you let them 451 00:26:42,516 --> 00:26:48,316 Speaker 3: be there and let me try a different approach. 452 00:26:49,356 --> 00:26:51,556 Speaker 1: You know, what I'm hearing, what I'm reflecting on as 453 00:26:51,596 --> 00:26:55,196 Speaker 1: you're sharing these sorts of stories, is that there's a 454 00:26:55,276 --> 00:26:59,196 Speaker 1: dynamic interplay between let them and let me throughout the 455 00:26:59,396 --> 00:27:04,516 Speaker 1: entire duration of the experience. These are like flexible categories. 456 00:27:04,516 --> 00:27:06,836 Speaker 1: You can start with let me, maybe you sit down, 457 00:27:06,916 --> 00:27:09,636 Speaker 1: you have a conversation. But what I say, see let 458 00:27:09,676 --> 00:27:14,996 Speaker 1: them serving as is a psychological safeguard such that if 459 00:27:14,996 --> 00:27:17,676 Speaker 1: you engage in the let me in good faith and 460 00:27:17,716 --> 00:27:20,436 Speaker 1: you explore all the options, you have a safe landing 461 00:27:20,516 --> 00:27:23,516 Speaker 1: with let them, which is, if I'm not able to 462 00:27:23,596 --> 00:27:26,316 Speaker 1: change them, I'm not going to allow it to erode 463 00:27:26,676 --> 00:27:28,116 Speaker 1: my well being and mental health. 464 00:27:28,396 --> 00:27:30,876 Speaker 3: Yes, or this relationship or this. 465 00:27:30,836 --> 00:27:36,036 Speaker 2: Relationship, because part of what actually creates friction and tension 466 00:27:36,116 --> 00:27:39,756 Speaker 2: and distance in a relationship is the opinion that somebody 467 00:27:39,796 --> 00:27:40,556 Speaker 2: else should change. 468 00:27:40,676 --> 00:27:41,756 Speaker 3: Yeah. And what I've. 469 00:27:41,596 --> 00:27:45,956 Speaker 2: Found is if you create this space where you let 470 00:27:45,996 --> 00:27:48,316 Speaker 2: people be, you let people have their feelings, You let 471 00:27:48,396 --> 00:27:52,076 Speaker 2: people have their opinions, You let people have their expectations, 472 00:27:52,116 --> 00:27:55,036 Speaker 2: you let people have their timeline for their own healing, 473 00:27:56,596 --> 00:28:00,996 Speaker 2: and you hold a boundary that creates acceptance of that 474 00:28:01,116 --> 00:28:05,156 Speaker 2: person as they are, or at least witnessing them clearly 475 00:28:05,236 --> 00:28:08,476 Speaker 2: as they are. Now you have a separate boundary in 476 00:28:08,556 --> 00:28:12,196 Speaker 2: relation to them, which has let me, let me remind 477 00:28:12,236 --> 00:28:15,036 Speaker 2: myself that the only power that I have in this 478 00:28:15,156 --> 00:28:20,436 Speaker 2: relationship is myself, and if I want the relationship to change, 479 00:28:20,516 --> 00:28:24,596 Speaker 2: the only thing that will change it is me. And 480 00:28:24,756 --> 00:28:28,876 Speaker 2: if I focus on what's in my control, which is 481 00:28:29,076 --> 00:28:31,676 Speaker 2: what I think about this, what I do or don't do, 482 00:28:31,916 --> 00:28:35,516 Speaker 2: and how I process my emotions, I change how I 483 00:28:35,556 --> 00:28:38,036 Speaker 2: relate to this person, how much time I give, how 484 00:28:38,076 --> 00:28:41,396 Speaker 2: much energy I change, how reactive I am, and that 485 00:28:41,516 --> 00:28:45,036 Speaker 2: shifts the dynamic entirely. You know, the truth is this 486 00:28:45,076 --> 00:28:50,236 Speaker 2: thing brings you closer to people in your life because 487 00:28:50,556 --> 00:28:54,076 Speaker 2: when you create space for people to have different opinions 488 00:28:54,196 --> 00:28:56,716 Speaker 2: or disappointments or expectations and you don't make it your 489 00:28:56,796 --> 00:29:00,076 Speaker 2: job to change them or manage them, you're now actually 490 00:29:00,116 --> 00:29:04,836 Speaker 2: in relation with the person as they are, and you're 491 00:29:04,876 --> 00:29:08,156 Speaker 2: not in relationship with the possibility or what they hope 492 00:29:08,156 --> 00:29:10,236 Speaker 2: they'd be, or trying to change them or the tension 493 00:29:10,276 --> 00:29:12,716 Speaker 2: of the die. Now, I just see you exactly as 494 00:29:12,756 --> 00:29:15,356 Speaker 2: you are, And even though I don't understand your opinion, 495 00:29:15,996 --> 00:29:18,156 Speaker 2: if I'm the kind of person that wants to understand it, 496 00:29:18,276 --> 00:29:20,836 Speaker 2: let me try to understand why you think the way 497 00:29:20,836 --> 00:29:21,196 Speaker 2: that you do. 498 00:29:21,276 --> 00:29:23,516 Speaker 3: Instead of judging you and not talking to you about it. 499 00:29:24,276 --> 00:29:26,956 Speaker 1: I love what you just said because I just interviewed 500 00:29:26,996 --> 00:29:29,956 Speaker 1: Amanda Knox for the show and she was saying, true 501 00:29:29,956 --> 00:29:33,476 Speaker 1: freedom for her is seeing the world as it actually is, 502 00:29:34,196 --> 00:29:35,876 Speaker 1: not as you believe it should be. And you know, 503 00:29:35,956 --> 00:29:39,116 Speaker 1: this is a woman who's faced wrongful conviction after wrongful conviction. 504 00:29:39,316 --> 00:29:42,476 Speaker 1: She knows what she's talking about, and she felt like 505 00:29:42,676 --> 00:29:45,236 Speaker 1: that was the one definition of freedom that no one 506 00:29:45,276 --> 00:29:47,396 Speaker 1: could ever take away from her. And when you're saying 507 00:29:47,396 --> 00:29:50,596 Speaker 1: that to me, it's like, actually, what a beautiful thing 508 00:29:51,036 --> 00:29:53,356 Speaker 1: to engage with the world and that people in it 509 00:29:53,476 --> 00:29:56,716 Speaker 1: as they are. Yes, what a wonderful way to live. 510 00:29:57,036 --> 00:30:01,316 Speaker 1: Just even hearing you say that sends tingles down my spine. Yeah, 511 00:30:01,316 --> 00:30:05,596 Speaker 1: to free ourselves of every expectation and every preconceived notion 512 00:30:05,836 --> 00:30:07,916 Speaker 1: and every hope of what we want them to be 513 00:30:08,036 --> 00:30:09,916 Speaker 1: or could be, or how we want to be with 514 00:30:09,996 --> 00:30:12,596 Speaker 1: them whatever. It is, Like, we come to every social 515 00:30:12,636 --> 00:30:16,516 Speaker 1: interaction with so much, like we carry so much mental 516 00:30:16,516 --> 00:30:19,996 Speaker 1: and emotional baggage that just surrounds that interaction. And imagine 517 00:30:19,996 --> 00:30:22,756 Speaker 1: you just like strip away that artifice. What a raw 518 00:30:22,836 --> 00:30:27,276 Speaker 1: and beautiful interaction you could have. There's no agenda anymore. 519 00:30:27,476 --> 00:30:30,196 Speaker 2: No there's no agenda because you just see people as 520 00:30:30,236 --> 00:30:33,316 Speaker 2: they are, and you know, to your point, I think 521 00:30:33,396 --> 00:30:35,716 Speaker 2: so much of this comes from the conditioning that we 522 00:30:35,796 --> 00:30:39,076 Speaker 2: have about human relationships as children. 523 00:30:39,436 --> 00:30:39,956 Speaker 1: Yeah. 524 00:30:40,436 --> 00:30:43,556 Speaker 2: If you think about the experience of being a child, 525 00:30:44,436 --> 00:30:50,116 Speaker 2: your entire conditioning around relationships is from a power dynamic 526 00:30:50,236 --> 00:30:53,436 Speaker 2: where somebody expects things of you and tells you what 527 00:30:53,556 --> 00:30:58,196 Speaker 2: to do and parents you, and that's their job. But 528 00:30:58,236 --> 00:31:01,156 Speaker 2: then we become eighteen years old and we think that 529 00:31:01,156 --> 00:31:04,316 Speaker 2: that's what relationships are, that we're supposed to parent other people, 530 00:31:05,196 --> 00:31:08,876 Speaker 2: and that's not what adult relationships should be. Learning how 531 00:31:08,876 --> 00:31:12,476 Speaker 2: to see somebody exactly as they are and exactly as 532 00:31:12,516 --> 00:31:17,756 Speaker 2: they're not, and then choosing how you're going to show 533 00:31:17,876 --> 00:31:25,436 Speaker 2: up with them as they are that is a just groundbreaking, late, freeing, 534 00:31:25,716 --> 00:31:28,476 Speaker 2: beautiful idea. It's certainly brought me closer to people in 535 00:31:28,556 --> 00:31:32,596 Speaker 2: my life, and it's made me confront how much expectation 536 00:31:32,836 --> 00:31:36,356 Speaker 2: and judgment and opinions that I have about my kids, 537 00:31:36,396 --> 00:31:42,196 Speaker 2: about my husband, about anything. Yeah, and learn how to 538 00:31:42,316 --> 00:31:47,156 Speaker 2: have boundaries between your desire and conditioning, to manage people's 539 00:31:47,196 --> 00:31:51,356 Speaker 2: happiness and moods and hold space for people's experience instead, 540 00:31:51,396 --> 00:31:53,636 Speaker 2: and one of the other beautiful things that's happened for 541 00:31:53,676 --> 00:31:57,436 Speaker 2: me as a parent is that something was happening with 542 00:31:57,476 --> 00:32:01,316 Speaker 2: one of my kids that was upsetting. A breakup, problems 543 00:32:01,316 --> 00:32:05,716 Speaker 2: with friends, issues with money, anxiety, all this stuff that's 544 00:32:05,756 --> 00:32:08,956 Speaker 2: just normal stuff of life, right. I would just rush 545 00:32:08,996 --> 00:32:10,356 Speaker 2: in and try to take it away. I would come 546 00:32:10,396 --> 00:32:12,036 Speaker 2: in with the advice. I would tell them what to do, 547 00:32:13,156 --> 00:32:18,716 Speaker 2: and I was stepping over the actual thing that needed 548 00:32:18,716 --> 00:32:25,156 Speaker 2: to be done, which is literally listen, validate somebody's feeling, 549 00:32:25,836 --> 00:32:27,916 Speaker 2: let them have the experience. And then here's the most 550 00:32:27,916 --> 00:32:33,916 Speaker 2: important thing. If you believe in the person's capacity and 551 00:32:34,036 --> 00:32:38,116 Speaker 2: capability to move through this challenge and learn from it, 552 00:32:39,396 --> 00:32:43,476 Speaker 2: then your role in their life is very different because 553 00:32:43,516 --> 00:32:47,276 Speaker 2: you move from a fixer to a person who stands 554 00:32:47,316 --> 00:32:53,236 Speaker 2: on the sidelines, reminding and coaching that you have the 555 00:32:53,276 --> 00:32:59,196 Speaker 2: ability to deal with this, to learn from it, to 556 00:32:59,276 --> 00:33:02,756 Speaker 2: survive this, to come stronger from it. You put people 557 00:33:02,876 --> 00:33:06,836 Speaker 2: back into the driver's seat of their life. As you're 558 00:33:06,916 --> 00:33:10,356 Speaker 2: sitting there next to them saying, I can see your 559 00:33:10,396 --> 00:33:14,196 Speaker 2: heart broken. You know, I'm sorry is happening to you, 560 00:33:14,356 --> 00:33:18,476 Speaker 2: and I believe in your ability to move through this. 561 00:33:18,556 --> 00:33:20,596 Speaker 2: I believe that you're going to be okay. But is 562 00:33:20,636 --> 00:33:23,676 Speaker 2: there anything that you want to do about this right now? 563 00:33:23,876 --> 00:33:28,156 Speaker 1: Yeah, when you look back now on young mel and 564 00:33:29,156 --> 00:33:32,716 Speaker 1: what she felt she needed in order to have a 565 00:33:32,756 --> 00:33:37,436 Speaker 1: stable existence, which is to manage and control her environment 566 00:33:37,596 --> 00:33:39,156 Speaker 1: right the people in it, and for all of them, 567 00:33:39,156 --> 00:33:41,156 Speaker 1: to make them all happy, do all the right things, 568 00:33:41,236 --> 00:33:44,836 Speaker 1: check all the boxes. And then you reflect on yourself today. 569 00:33:44,876 --> 00:33:49,196 Speaker 1: I mean, the evolution's extraordinary. How would you summarize what 570 00:33:49,236 --> 00:33:53,796 Speaker 1: your current relationship with control is in relation to other people? 571 00:33:54,676 --> 00:34:01,596 Speaker 2: Well, it is a daily practice because everybody has a 572 00:34:01,636 --> 00:34:05,196 Speaker 2: hardwired need to feel in control and that's never going away. 573 00:34:06,196 --> 00:34:13,076 Speaker 2: But boy, has it been transformational to really have tools 574 00:34:13,996 --> 00:34:18,236 Speaker 2: to be able to help me decipher what's in my 575 00:34:18,356 --> 00:34:22,076 Speaker 2: control and what's not. What do I have power over 576 00:34:22,196 --> 00:34:24,796 Speaker 2: and what do I not? Where do I want to 577 00:34:24,876 --> 00:34:29,836 Speaker 2: give my time and attention because time and intention and 578 00:34:29,876 --> 00:34:33,716 Speaker 2: your energy those are the single most valuable things you 579 00:34:33,756 --> 00:34:35,676 Speaker 2: have in life because where you put your time and 580 00:34:35,676 --> 00:34:38,556 Speaker 2: what you pour your energy into determines the experience you 581 00:34:38,636 --> 00:34:41,876 Speaker 2: have in life. I mean, it's just been life changing 582 00:34:41,876 --> 00:34:46,876 Speaker 2: because I actually do feel more in control and I 583 00:34:46,916 --> 00:34:50,876 Speaker 2: more importantly feel very peaceful most of the time. 584 00:35:11,276 --> 00:35:14,396 Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. Just as a reminder, 585 00:35:14,556 --> 00:35:17,196 Speaker 1: you can pre order my new book, The Other Side 586 00:35:17,196 --> 00:35:20,356 Speaker 1: of Change at the link in our episode description or 587 00:35:20,396 --> 00:35:24,036 Speaker 1: at Change with maya dot com slash book and join 588 00:35:24,116 --> 00:35:26,876 Speaker 1: me next time when we hear from best selling author 589 00:35:26,996 --> 00:35:32,116 Speaker 1: and podcast host Glennon Doyle about her lifelong search for belonging. 590 00:35:33,636 --> 00:35:38,116 Speaker 4: Many times in my life, I've had moments where I'm like, Oh, 591 00:35:38,156 --> 00:35:41,316 Speaker 4: I'm out of here. I won't spend another moment in 592 00:35:41,396 --> 00:35:43,756 Speaker 4: this cafeteria, in this high school, in this marriage, in 593 00:35:43,796 --> 00:35:44,556 Speaker 4: this life. 594 00:35:44,836 --> 00:35:47,756 Speaker 1: That's next week on A Slight Change of Plans. See 595 00:35:47,796 --> 00:35:51,916 Speaker 1: you then. A Slight Change of Plans is created, written 596 00:35:51,996 --> 00:35:55,436 Speaker 1: and executive produced by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change 597 00:35:55,476 --> 00:35:59,556 Speaker 1: family includes our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate 598 00:35:59,636 --> 00:36:04,196 Speaker 1: Parkinson Morgan, our producers Britney Cronin and Megan Lubin, and 599 00:36:04,276 --> 00:36:08,516 Speaker 1: our sound engineer Erica Huang. Louis Scara wrote our delightful 600 00:36:08,556 --> 00:36:11,916 Speaker 1: theme song, and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A 601 00:36:11,956 --> 00:36:15,116 Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, 602 00:36:15,236 --> 00:36:18,236 Speaker 1: so big thanks to everyone there, and of course a 603 00:36:18,436 --> 00:36:21,556 Speaker 1: very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow a 604 00:36:21,556 --> 00:36:24,796 Speaker 1: slight change of plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker 605 00:36:25,036 --> 00:36:25,836 Speaker 1: see you next week. 606 00:36:45,636 --> 00:36:48,716 Speaker 2: Can I just tell you something, the worse I look, 607 00:36:49,276 --> 00:36:52,756 Speaker 2: the better our content does. And I'm looking pretty decent today. 608 00:36:52,836 --> 00:36:53,356 Speaker 3: So we're fun. 609 00:36:53,476 --> 00:36:54,436 Speaker 1: We're totally screwed.