WEBVTT - Moore's Ford Bridge Murders: Part Two | Janice Duncan 0:00:09.280 --> 0:00:11.559 My parents took me to see the Bonnie and Clyde 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:15.160 death car when I was eight years old. The man 0:00:15.240 --> 0:00:19.080 that owned it let me sit in it. Now, of course, 0:00:19.160 --> 0:00:22.160 was not a criminologist at that time, but I was, 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:26.120 I thought a Bonnie and Clyde expert. And what I 0:00:26.200 --> 0:00:28.800 realized in that moment when he let me sit in 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:33.960 that car, there was nowhere I could move. There wasn't 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:38.360 bullet holes. There was one hundred and sixty bullet holes 0:00:38.360 --> 0:00:41.159 in that car, and as small as I was at 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:43.360 the time, I couldn't hide from any of them. 0:00:43.880 --> 0:00:46.360 So that told me the magnitude of what. 0:00:46.400 --> 0:00:50.960 Happened at that sine, the importance of that event taught 0:00:51.000 --> 0:00:54.720 me You've got to go to the sink. You've got 0:00:54.760 --> 0:00:56.840 to go to the source, you've got to walk it, 0:00:56.920 --> 0:00:59.960 you've got to understand it. And I never forgot that 0:01:00.800 --> 0:01:03.960 even years later when I wanted to learn more about 0:01:03.960 --> 0:01:06.440 the FBI, I wanted to go to Washington, d C. 0:01:07.200 --> 0:01:09.920 To the FBI building and take the tour. I wanted 0:01:09.959 --> 0:01:14.399 to see it myself. I will tell you, as a 0:01:14.440 --> 0:01:19.520 cold case investigator, you cannot overstate the importance of going 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:21.080 to the scene and understanding it. 0:01:21.920 --> 0:01:23.400 With the Bonnie and Clyde vehicle. 0:01:23.840 --> 0:01:28.120 There were three or four fake Bonnie and Clyde cars, 0:01:28.760 --> 0:01:33.520 people that actually took similar vehicles and shot them up 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:37.160 so that they could make money with these cars. Ted 0:01:37.280 --> 0:01:41.840 Hinton put a stop to that because he at the 0:01:41.920 --> 0:01:45.640 time in nineteen thirty four marked that car in a 0:01:45.680 --> 0:01:48.400 place only he knew, in a way that only he knew, 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:51.560 so that when it literally went to trial, he was 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:56.040 able to pinpoint which vehicle was the authentic Bonnie and 0:01:56.040 --> 0:02:01.040 Clyde death car. Fifty miles east of it. On a 0:02:01.080 --> 0:02:05.680 small farm, jealousy brewed as hot as the Georgia sun. 0:02:06.600 --> 0:02:12.200 On July fourteenth, nineteen forty six, a sharecropper named Roger 0:02:12.240 --> 0:02:17.160 Malcolm was accused of stabbing a farmer named Barnett Hester 0:02:17.960 --> 0:02:22.800 with an ice pick. Mister Malcolm tried to run, but 0:02:23.000 --> 0:02:26.480 was captured by the Hester family and held until sheriff 0:02:26.560 --> 0:02:31.079 deputies could arrive. About six point thirty. Mister Malcolm went 0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:36.040 to jail that night. His wife was fearful that a 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:39.800 mob would storm the jail and kill him, so she 0:02:39.960 --> 0:02:43.640 begged her boss. Lloyd Harrison, who owned the farm, was 0:02:43.680 --> 0:02:47.720 one of the largest land owners in Monroe County, to 0:02:47.840 --> 0:02:51.760 please go bail him out so they wouldn't kill him, 0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:56.600 and Lloyd Harrison said no. Two days later, a mob 0:02:56.760 --> 0:03:00.720 met about three miles south out on Highway one at 0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:04.760 Toller's Woods. Now there's no documentation of what that meeting 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:09.560 was about, but I've always believed they met to plan 0:03:10.480 --> 0:03:15.119 the murder of mister Malcolm. Miss Malcolm asked Lloy Harrison 0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:19.320 repeatedly for the next eleven days to please go bail 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:20.160 him out. 0:03:20.440 --> 0:03:23.120 To save his life. He refused. 0:03:24.080 --> 0:03:28.359 Then suddenly, on July twenty fifth, he told Miss Malcolm 0:03:28.720 --> 0:03:31.600 go get the Dorsey's and let's go to town and 0:03:31.639 --> 0:03:35.160 get Roger out of jail. Now Roger's bell was six 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:41.280 hundred dollars today, that's about ten thousand dollars. Eleven days 0:03:41.320 --> 0:03:45.560 after the stabbing, Roger was a free man, and he 0:03:45.840 --> 0:03:51.080 and his wife, Dorothy, and George and May Murray went 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:54.200 and got into Lloy Harrison's car and headed back to 0:03:54.280 --> 0:03:58.640 his farm. Mister Harrison did not go back on the 0:03:58.680 --> 0:04:02.840 paved road as the crow flies to his far He 0:04:02.880 --> 0:04:07.960 took the unpaved long way home. As he approached the 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:13.800 small moors Ford Bridge, there was a mob waiting twenty 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:16.680 to twenty five men were on that bridge and blocked 0:04:16.760 --> 0:04:19.160 him in the front and in the back in his 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:25.400 car came to a complete stop. The men demanded that 0:04:25.640 --> 0:04:28.440 Roger get out of the car. There was a man 0:04:28.480 --> 0:04:31.479 in a three piece suit with a big brim hat 0:04:32.000 --> 0:04:36.640 that approached the car unmasked with a firearm, and he 0:04:36.880 --> 0:04:39.080 ordered mister Malcolm out of the car, and then he 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:43.040 ordered mister Dorsey out of the car. Miss Dorsey recognized 0:04:43.080 --> 0:04:46.799 several of the men. She begged them by the name 0:04:47.440 --> 0:04:51.480 not to kill her husband. All four victims were tied together, 0:04:52.600 --> 0:04:56.240 and the man in the suit ordered everyone to shoot 0:04:56.560 --> 0:05:02.160 at the count of three. He repeated this instruction numerous times, 0:05:03.120 --> 0:05:07.880 ensuring that every single man on that bridge shot, so 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:11.440 that everyone was guilty of murder, so that no one 0:05:11.760 --> 0:05:16.960 would break ranks and talk. Lloyd Harrison was unharmed and 0:05:17.080 --> 0:05:19.440 was able to go on his way. He told law 0:05:19.520 --> 0:05:22.960 enforce men he didn't recognize anybody on the bridge. Now 0:05:22.960 --> 0:05:27.719 he's the wealthiest landowner in this county, and he didn't 0:05:27.760 --> 0:05:30.320 recognize one man out of twenty five. 0:05:31.400 --> 0:05:35.080 Yet his young female. 0:05:34.800 --> 0:05:40.279 Worker knew several by name. I saw some similarities in 0:05:40.320 --> 0:05:44.880 these two cases. Now one was nineteen thirty four and 0:05:44.920 --> 0:05:48.640 the other case was nineteen forty six. And what I 0:05:48.760 --> 0:05:54.280 found striking was both cases started in a car. Someone 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:58.520 in each of the cars was accused of killing or 0:05:58.560 --> 0:05:59.960 attempting to kill somebody. 0:06:00.440 --> 0:06:03.000 The shooters were laying in wait. 0:06:03.400 --> 0:06:10.160 On both cases, all shooters shot multiple times into the subjects. 0:06:10.520 --> 0:06:13.919 Crowds gathered at both scenes and took mementos from the scenes. 0:06:14.440 --> 0:06:18.760 Dead bodies had their pictures put in the paper. More 0:06:18.800 --> 0:06:23.120 than one person was shot at both scenes. Different weapons 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:27.560 were used in both of these scenes. Subjects were unaware 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:31.880 that there was a mob laying in wait. Clyde Barrow 0:06:32.040 --> 0:06:35.680 tried to join the Navy, and George Dorsey was in 0:06:35.760 --> 0:06:36.320 the service. 0:06:36.520 --> 0:06:37.400 He was in the Army. 0:06:38.040 --> 0:06:42.000 In both cases, women were also shot and killed, which 0:06:42.080 --> 0:06:47.320 was extraordinarily rare. Both cases, the subjects had just gotten 0:06:47.400 --> 0:06:51.240 something to eat, and in both cases they were set 0:06:51.320 --> 0:06:55.520 up to stop at a location where they were killed. Y'all, 0:06:55.600 --> 0:06:58.440 let's get into this case and let's talk about it 0:06:58.760 --> 0:07:02.560 from somebody that's been to the scene. And tonight I 0:07:02.640 --> 0:07:09.000 have the absolute honor to welcome Janie Duncan. Janis is 0:07:09.000 --> 0:07:14.200 a clinical therapist. She's a behavioral consultant and in her 0:07:14.320 --> 0:07:17.400 free time she has decided to be a doctoral candidate. 0:07:18.480 --> 0:07:22.880 She's a college she's a college professor. She is a 0:07:23.080 --> 0:07:27.800 former coworker of mine. She is my dear friend, and 0:07:27.880 --> 0:07:31.360 she is one of the most gifted investigative minds I've 0:07:31.400 --> 0:07:38.640 ever worked with. So Jannis Duncan, welcome to z Own seven. Hey, 0:07:40.600 --> 0:07:43.000 And I will tell you she's got a fabulous sense 0:07:43.000 --> 0:07:45.840 of humor, which when you work the type of cases 0:07:45.840 --> 0:07:49.239 that we do, it certainly is a gift. 0:07:49.600 --> 0:07:50.320 And I'll tell you I. 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:53.440 Will tell you all that this case in particular, we 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:56.840 had some good nights up in the war room. So Janie, 0:07:57.120 --> 0:07:59.760 I think it's important when we're talking about this case, 0:07:59.840 --> 0:08:01.560 I want to go ahead and tell the folks it's 0:08:01.600 --> 0:08:07.640 the Moor's Ford Bridge Lyncheon. It's the last mass lyncheon 0:08:07.800 --> 0:08:11.640 in the United States. And when we started the Cold 0:08:11.640 --> 0:08:16.000 Case Investigative Research Institute, Janis Duncan was one of those 0:08:16.000 --> 0:08:19.480 people that would come in early, stay late, come during 0:08:19.520 --> 0:08:23.000 a holiday weekend to make sure the students got all 0:08:23.040 --> 0:08:25.560 they needed in order to take these cases to the 0:08:25.680 --> 0:08:28.640 level that we needed them to get to to try 0:08:28.640 --> 0:08:32.520 to find some answers and solvability factors. Janice, Let's talk 0:08:32.520 --> 0:08:35.560 a little bit about back in the day on this case, 0:08:35.600 --> 0:08:38.520 in particular when we would be in the war room, 0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:45.199 sometimes past midnight, meeting with representatives and senators and political 0:08:45.240 --> 0:08:51.080 figures and religious figures, trying to navigate this case. When 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:54.080 we first got into it, my memory is you and 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:57.040 I were just having a blast that we were learning 0:08:57.040 --> 0:09:00.800 so much, and we were meeting some incredible people, and 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:04.080 the students were just on fire with this back. 0:09:04.520 --> 0:09:09.400 They were I remember mostly first of all the human 0:09:09.480 --> 0:09:13.360 from our students, which was also very helpful. Yes, they 0:09:13.400 --> 0:09:16.640 were also very dedicated to their studies too, they. 0:09:16.559 --> 0:09:17.400 Wanted to learn. 0:09:18.000 --> 0:09:21.319 One of the things that we always remember trying to 0:09:21.360 --> 0:09:25.160 do with the students was to quote unquote give them 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:29.600 hands on experience as best as we could without actually 0:09:30.000 --> 0:09:35.679 taking them out on an active crime scene. So you 0:09:35.760 --> 0:09:41.000 were always really instrumental in assisting us in recreating crime scenes. 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:45.720 But I think that when we actually visited this scene, 0:09:46.040 --> 0:09:50.600 I don't know that we actually recognized it initially because 0:09:50.679 --> 0:09:53.040 by the end of it, after all those hours we 0:09:53.040 --> 0:09:56.000 were out there, I know you remember how emotional it 0:09:56.040 --> 0:10:00.200 actually got, particularly for me, And how do you go 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:05.000 from laughing and joking to crying and shaking with anxiety. 0:10:06.240 --> 0:10:10.800 So I think that it's an experience that I'll never forget. 0:10:11.679 --> 0:10:14.920 It has always stayed with me, and I think that 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:18.280 the students could also. Those former students can tell you 0:10:18.480 --> 0:10:23.199 that that was a defining moment in their educational careers. 0:10:23.679 --> 0:10:27.960 The education that we were given was so real and 0:10:28.040 --> 0:10:33.360 so raw because you had gone to a university. I 0:10:33.360 --> 0:10:37.200 don't even know how to properly say it. That the 0:10:37.440 --> 0:10:41.520 historical value that you were given as a young person, 0:10:42.360 --> 0:10:45.080 I don't think can be overstated. When you think of 0:10:45.520 --> 0:10:49.679 the Duskegee Airman, I mean, there's nobody that shouldn't stop 0:10:49.760 --> 0:10:52.679 dead in their tracks and understand what you're talking about. Right, 0:10:52.880 --> 0:10:57.400 So you had that at your university. You had the 0:10:57.480 --> 0:11:00.079 Lynching Museum, and I think a lot of people I 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:02.080 didn't even know that exists. But that's one of the 0:11:02.120 --> 0:11:05.040 places that we tapped into while working this case. 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:07.200 And I don't think I've ever shared this with you, 0:11:07.360 --> 0:11:12.200 but when I was actually a student there, well, you 0:11:12.240 --> 0:11:16.240 know how it was on one of those spirited nights 0:11:16.320 --> 0:11:19.400 that we were out laid, probably just come from a party, 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:22.360 you know, had been drinking kool aid all night or something, 0:11:23.120 --> 0:11:28.600 and we actually ended up on the other side of campus, 0:11:28.720 --> 0:11:32.479 some friends of mine. It was completely on the opposite 0:11:32.520 --> 0:11:35.439 side of where our dormitories were. 0:11:36.160 --> 0:11:39.319 But anyway, we ended up over there. And this is long. 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:42.880 Before like now, the campus is completely different almost as 0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:44.920 far as the renovations and the things they built. But 0:11:45.440 --> 0:11:49.480 we actually were able to see the inside of one 0:11:49.480 --> 0:11:52.040 of the areas where they actually kept these men that 0:11:52.120 --> 0:11:56.040 they experimented on, and everything was almost still intact. Now, 0:11:56.080 --> 0:11:58.520 of course it was dirty, it was dusty, but the 0:11:58.520 --> 0:12:02.160 beds were still there. You really couldn't see the bloodstains, 0:12:02.200 --> 0:12:05.920 but it was you could see remnants of where something 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:10.720 was there. So, needless to say at that time, because 0:12:10.760 --> 0:12:13.559 that was back in the nineties, we got the hell 0:12:13.600 --> 0:12:16.080 out of there, but it was just unreal that it 0:12:16.200 --> 0:12:18.719 was actually still there intact the way that it was 0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:21.959 and they had never done anything with it at that point. 0:12:22.120 --> 0:12:26.280 That's the kind of history that you were witnessed to, right, 0:12:26.920 --> 0:12:29.920 I mean, that's remarkable, And I know our students there 0:12:30.000 --> 0:12:31.280 was a night up. 0:12:31.200 --> 0:12:33.520 In the war room and they. 0:12:33.400 --> 0:12:35.400 Had all the you know, maps on the wall, and 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:38.400 they had the photographs and statements and all that sort 0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:39.880 of thing, and they. 0:12:39.800 --> 0:12:43.360 Were there was a group. Tammy was involved, Bates was involved. 0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:46.680 They were that group, and they were talking behind me, 0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:49.640 and you were sitting to my right and Don Bela 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:52.560 was sitting to my left, and the students were just 0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:54.520 going back and forth about what can we do. It's 0:12:54.559 --> 0:12:58.240 been you know, seventy years, and can anything be done? 0:12:58.920 --> 0:13:02.880 And I just offhand said, well, bullets don't disintegrate. And 0:13:02.920 --> 0:13:05.520 then I remember we looked at each other and we're like, 0:13:06.200 --> 0:13:10.760 bullets don't disintegrate, right, let's go get them exactly so, 0:13:12.120 --> 0:13:15.160 and I remember at that point, you know, Dawn was like, well, 0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:18.480 you're gonna need a warrant. You know, always a lawyer, always. 0:13:18.200 --> 0:13:20.880 A downer, So stay down. 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:23.960 Yeah, I mean you're like, we can get over that fence, 0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:28.080 are you kidding? But it was important because that night 0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:32.520 changed everything as far as what the Institute was absolutely 0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:34.839 going to be about. We were no longer going to 0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:38.240 be theory based. We were going to be action oriented 0:13:38.600 --> 0:13:41.640 and if we can go locate some evidence, then let's 0:13:41.640 --> 0:13:42.000 do it. 0:13:47.000 --> 0:13:47.800 For this case. 0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:52.600 The last mass lynching, Moore's Ford Bridge, you had at 0:13:52.720 --> 0:13:57.080 least twenty to twenty five people shooting a multitude of 0:13:57.080 --> 0:14:01.240 different weapons from handguns to long gun you know, rifles 0:14:01.240 --> 0:14:05.720 and shotguns, and this just barrage of gunfire that rang 0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:10.680 out and it ran right along the Appalachi River. There 0:14:10.760 --> 0:14:14.800 was one witness, remember that, Jennie, I do. So there 0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:17.560 was a little boy, y'all that was hiding in the field. 0:14:17.600 --> 0:14:20.400 He had been playing and he saw all the cars 0:14:20.440 --> 0:14:22.680 and he identified one car and said it was tan 0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:24.960 with you know, the red dome light on the top. 0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:28.280 It was a sheriff's vehicle and they thought from South Carolina. 0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:32.800 He kind of pinpointed exactly where this took place. And 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:38.040 for us, again we say, well, let's go, let's go 0:14:38.120 --> 0:14:42.160 do what we do. We made the students understand the times. 0:14:42.600 --> 0:14:44.560 So when you work a cold case, one of the 0:14:44.640 --> 0:14:49.160 most important things is you have to understand nineteen forty 0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:50.200 six exactly. 0:14:50.600 --> 0:14:51.760 So we spent a lot. 0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:55.560 Of time up there explaining what is a sharecropper, what 0:14:55.680 --> 0:14:58.440 is a house worth? How do people work their whole 0:14:58.480 --> 0:15:01.360 lives and their children work, their grandchildren work, and they're 0:15:01.400 --> 0:15:03.320 still on the same farm because they can't get off 0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:03.560 of it. 0:15:03.760 --> 0:15:06.240 And I think they had the hardest time understanding that 0:15:06.320 --> 0:15:09.400 because of where their mindset and the way the world 0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:14.160 was at that time, they couldn't even imagine it. That 0:15:14.600 --> 0:15:17.880 was an interesting part. So I think it was really 0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:21.000 important that we actually took that step to go out 0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:24.960 there because they couldn't visualize it at all. To them, 0:15:25.040 --> 0:15:27.320 I think at some point it was, oh, this is 0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:30.080 just this is just history, This is just these are 0:15:30.120 --> 0:15:32.800 just words, you know, this is just the way that 0:15:32.840 --> 0:15:36.480 this was actually written and explained. But being there and 0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:40.280 actually feeling that changed everything for them about this case. 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:43.960 When we were getting ready to go literally from classroom 0:15:44.000 --> 0:15:49.040 to crime scene, and we talked about you know, the times, 0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:52.960 what is the sharecropper, the voting rights, you know, the 0:15:52.960 --> 0:15:57.840 different politicians and things. What was the turning point for 0:15:57.960 --> 0:16:00.320 you other than meeting with Johnny Leecley. 0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:05.960 When I started in this field was private probation, then 0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:09.000 I went to the parole office, then I went to 0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:09.920 house arrest. 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:12.280 Then I went to private directions. 0:16:12.960 --> 0:16:16.680 So it's almost like a part of me was kind 0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:21.200 of like a student at the same time, because at 0:16:21.240 --> 0:16:24.280 the same time I couldn't imagine it either. You know, 0:16:24.600 --> 0:16:28.000 crime was different than the way that law enforcement responded 0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:31.760 to crime was different at that time. To actually hear 0:16:32.040 --> 0:16:37.320 from someone who was causing the pain. I think was 0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:40.560 the turning point for me. I was a little reluctant, 0:16:40.760 --> 0:16:45.680 but I was actually interested, Like is this guy really serious? 0:16:46.320 --> 0:16:49.680 Is he really going to talk to us about these things? 0:16:50.240 --> 0:16:51.680 I just couldn't imagine that. 0:16:52.280 --> 0:16:55.520 For those that work in our world, this is like 0:16:55.920 --> 0:16:59.560 Super Bowl Sunday. You're never going to have the Imperial 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:02.520 Wizard of the klu Klutzklan talk to you. You're you're 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:05.119 never going to have that person lay out a case 0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:08.399 and why this is clan connected or why it's not. 0:17:09.320 --> 0:17:13.080 And so we had the opportunity to do this and 0:17:13.119 --> 0:17:14.240 it was real cloak. 0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:17.959 And dagger, and you know, again, Janis and I worked 0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:22.080 at a college predominantly African American with an African American president, 0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:24.960 and you know when you buzz in his office real 0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:26.680 quick and go, hey, we got a speaker next week, 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:28.720 We're going to meet with great love it. I like 0:17:28.800 --> 0:17:31.679 it when y'all have people here, gets the students, you know, 0:17:31.760 --> 0:17:33.720 connected to the real world and that sort of thing. 0:17:33.960 --> 0:17:35.600 And I'm like great, and he's like, who is it? 0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:43.359 The former Imperial Wizard of the plan. He's like, I 0:17:43.359 --> 0:17:47.760 think you need to have a seat, right, you got 0:17:47.800 --> 0:17:50.239 to talk about it a little bit, and then he 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:53.959 understood and he got it, and then it was our 0:17:54.080 --> 0:17:56.119 job to now go tell the students because we couldn't 0:17:56.119 --> 0:17:59.840 take everybody. So we had picked who we thought was 0:18:00.400 --> 0:18:03.639 an eclectic group, a good group, a solid group. But 0:18:03.720 --> 0:18:07.720 I remember Bates looked right at me. Yeah, and she said, 0:18:08.600 --> 0:18:14.639 what do you mean, farmer? And I said, well, I 0:18:14.680 --> 0:18:18.000 have a good friend that's divorced but still has sex 0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:22.000 with her former husband. So I don't know what it means. 0:18:22.119 --> 0:18:24.440 I just know that that's how he introduced himself as 0:18:24.480 --> 0:18:25.280 the former. 0:18:25.840 --> 0:18:27.640 I said, but let's do this. Let's meet with him, 0:18:28.119 --> 0:18:29.120 see what he has to say. 0:18:29.160 --> 0:18:33.879 Because the reality is in this profession, when somebody calls 0:18:33.960 --> 0:18:37.640 the police, or you're assigned somebody during probation or parole, 0:18:38.240 --> 0:18:42.280 or you're working into jail, you don't get to decide 0:18:42.880 --> 0:18:46.440 who you work with. Absolutely, So you have got to 0:18:46.480 --> 0:18:49.920 be able to talk to anybody, you know, You've got 0:18:49.960 --> 0:18:52.439 to be able to get that information that you need 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:54.440 to move this case in some way. 0:18:55.520 --> 0:18:57.560 So that's what we're going to try to do. And 0:18:57.600 --> 0:18:59.080 she was like, m but. 0:18:59.080 --> 0:18:59.960 I'll be honest with you. 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:01.320 I wasn't really sold either. 0:19:01.600 --> 0:19:04.800 Initially, I was a little and I think that's just 0:19:04.880 --> 0:19:06.960 because because. 0:19:06.720 --> 0:19:09.160 I am black, and because. 0:19:10.480 --> 0:19:14.680 I don't know, that's just an emotional type of topic. 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:18.399 And I don't know. 0:19:19.160 --> 0:19:23.080 Okay, of course we know that. You know, there are 0:19:23.119 --> 0:19:26.400 a lot of people that probably still have those types 0:19:26.440 --> 0:19:29.720 of beliefs, but they're not walking around in white sheets 0:19:29.760 --> 0:19:33.920 and hoods. But to actually, I don't think I ever 0:19:34.000 --> 0:19:36.960 thought I would actually be sitting that close to one 0:19:37.359 --> 0:19:41.359 and actually having that kind of dialogue. But once he 0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:44.440 got to talking, you know, I was sitting there giving 0:19:44.520 --> 0:19:49.040 him the side eye too quietly. But but once he 0:19:49.160 --> 0:19:51.720 got going, and you know, in the conversation, I could 0:19:51.840 --> 0:19:53.760 see how genuine he actually was. 0:19:55.000 --> 0:19:56.920 It just it poured out of him. 0:19:57.280 --> 0:19:58.480 I'm going to tell you it's one of the most 0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:01.720 remarkable meetings I've ever seen, I think because I think 0:20:01.760 --> 0:20:05.359 I watched Bates more than anybody in that meeting, because. 0:20:05.640 --> 0:20:08.480 She was angry, but she wanted to go. 0:20:08.680 --> 0:20:11.240 She wanted to do the you know, professional thing, as 0:20:11.240 --> 0:20:14.639 it were, and she thought he might seriously have some 0:20:14.720 --> 0:20:18.399 great intel, which is what we were all hoping. But 0:20:19.080 --> 0:20:23.200 this gentleman's name was Johnny Lee Clearing, and Johnny Lee 0:20:23.240 --> 0:20:26.440 agreed to meet with us. He had had some death 0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:30.400 threats since leaving the clan, so he said, I will 0:20:30.400 --> 0:20:32.959 only tell you the address where I'll meet y'all that morning, 0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:36.120 and we went and we met with him kind of 0:20:36.600 --> 0:20:40.520 cloak and dagger, you know, right, and you know, when 0:20:40.560 --> 0:20:43.879 he started to talk, I was I went right in, 0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:45.240 you know, let's talk about more sport. 0:20:45.880 --> 0:20:48.000 Was it a clan ordered hit? You know? 0:20:48.320 --> 0:20:52.280 And he went, well, I'll get there, but is it 0:20:52.320 --> 0:20:53.720 okay with you if I talked to. 0:20:53.680 --> 0:20:57.119 The students first, and I was like, of course. 0:20:58.320 --> 0:21:05.800 And he started explaining his childhood, and one of our 0:21:05.840 --> 0:21:10.600 students had a similar story where her parents she had 0:21:10.640 --> 0:21:13.840 lost both of them to violence. And he started to 0:21:13.880 --> 0:21:17.119 explain that his mom died of an overdose and his 0:21:17.240 --> 0:21:23.000 dad committed suicide in front of him. And I watched 0:21:23.080 --> 0:21:26.720 Lashan and she kind of looked at me, and she 0:21:26.800 --> 0:21:30.560 looked back at him, and I'm like, Okay, this might 0:21:30.640 --> 0:21:34.960 go differently than any of us ever expected. And as 0:21:35.040 --> 0:21:39.960 he kept telling that story, and then he told of 0:21:40.040 --> 0:21:43.400 more trauma that he suffered and more abuse that he suffered, 0:21:44.760 --> 0:21:47.960 his story started to resonate with some of our students 0:21:48.000 --> 0:21:51.720 that had young people in their family that went toward 0:21:51.800 --> 0:21:55.359 a gang for comfort and money and family type feelings. 0:21:56.200 --> 0:22:00.640 They got it, they understood that. Wait a minute, he's 0:22:01.160 --> 0:22:03.480 telling me a story that's got nothing to do with 0:22:03.640 --> 0:22:08.840 race and everything to do with how he felt and 0:22:08.880 --> 0:22:10.280 what he needed. 0:22:09.960 --> 0:22:13.159 And what he wasn't getting. And you know, you're looking at. 0:22:13.119 --> 0:22:16.960 Some of these young people going, ain't that your story exactly? 0:22:17.680 --> 0:22:19.359 And you know, the funny thing about that is that 0:22:19.680 --> 0:22:23.200 I think that's when I was getting my second masters 0:22:23.240 --> 0:22:26.679 in psychology, which is why I'm a therapist today. 0:22:27.359 --> 0:22:30.480 But that right there, I think. 0:22:30.520 --> 0:22:32.879 When I had I remember having a conversation with a 0:22:32.920 --> 0:22:36.360 few of the students after that, and I was trying 0:22:36.400 --> 0:22:39.639 to explain to them too, you have to start looking 0:22:39.680 --> 0:22:42.840 at things you need to know or kind of try 0:22:42.880 --> 0:22:46.880 to get an understanding of what caused him to actually 0:22:46.920 --> 0:22:50.679 behave that way and actually to have those beliefs. And 0:22:50.760 --> 0:22:54.600 so we started revisiting that conversation that he had about 0:22:55.000 --> 0:22:59.680 the violence and abusive you know, that childhood that he had, 0:23:00.119 --> 0:23:02.560 you know, the violence that he saw, the violenceated witness, 0:23:02.640 --> 0:23:05.440 and that kind of trauma can cause you to go 0:23:06.600 --> 0:23:09.639 any kind of way anyway, like you said, joining gangs 0:23:09.760 --> 0:23:12.320 or doing all these things just to find some type 0:23:12.320 --> 0:23:15.000 of comfort, or it may have been almost like a 0:23:15.040 --> 0:23:18.199 coping skill form, you know, some way to kind of 0:23:18.240 --> 0:23:22.200 manage those feelings, you know, or as an escape. Some 0:23:22.240 --> 0:23:25.679 people turn to drugs, some people do other things. So 0:23:26.440 --> 0:23:29.120 I think he was pretty troubled the fact that he 0:23:29.240 --> 0:23:32.159 was able to actually get to a place in his 0:23:32.280 --> 0:23:36.000 life where he was actually able to leave the clan 0:23:36.200 --> 0:23:39.840 and actually start telling his story I think it was 0:23:39.880 --> 0:23:41.440 actually therapeutic for him too. 0:23:41.960 --> 0:23:46.480 And as his story went on, he told about making 0:23:47.000 --> 0:23:50.240 a lot of money. He talked about how he actually 0:23:50.280 --> 0:23:53.439 got into the Klan, that all his life he was 0:23:53.480 --> 0:23:56.560 told he was worthless, wasn't going to ever amount anything, 0:23:56.720 --> 0:23:59.880 was just white trash. And suddenly there's a guy one 0:24:00.920 --> 0:24:04.920 saying white people are the greatest, that white people invented 0:24:04.960 --> 0:24:10.040 airplanes and automobiles and everything else worth anything. And it 0:24:10.119 --> 0:24:15.399 shocked him because he had never heard anybody brag about 0:24:15.400 --> 0:24:19.520 his race. And he wrote the man basically a fan letter, 0:24:20.040 --> 0:24:21.679 and he didn't think anything else about it. 0:24:21.720 --> 0:24:22.200 That was it. 0:24:22.680 --> 0:24:24.919 And then one day this limousine pulls up and this 0:24:25.000 --> 0:24:27.159 man gets out and says, are you Johnny Lee Cleary? 0:24:27.160 --> 0:24:31.359 And he says yes, and he said, well, if you 0:24:31.440 --> 0:24:33.639