1 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:11,559 Speaker 1: My parents took me to see the Bonnie and Clyde 2 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:15,160 Speaker 1: death car when I was eight years old. The man 3 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:19,080 Speaker 1: that owned it let me sit in it. Now, of course, 4 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 1: was not a criminologist at that time, but I was, 5 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:26,120 Speaker 1: I thought a Bonnie and Clyde expert. And what I 6 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: realized in that moment when he let me sit in 7 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 1: that car, there was nowhere I could move. There wasn't 8 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: bullet holes. There was one hundred and sixty bullet holes 9 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:41,159 Speaker 1: in that car, and as small as I was at 10 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: the time, I couldn't hide from any of them. 11 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 2: So that told me the magnitude of what. 12 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 1: Happened at that sine, the importance of that event taught 13 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: me You've got to go to the sink. You've got 14 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: to go to the source, you've got to walk it, 15 00:00:56,920 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 1: you've got to understand it. And I never forgot that 16 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 1: even years later when I wanted to learn more about 17 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 1: the FBI, I wanted to go to Washington, d C. 18 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: To the FBI building and take the tour. I wanted 19 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:14,399 Speaker 1: to see it myself. I will tell you, as a 20 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 1: cold case investigator, you cannot overstate the importance of going 21 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 1: to the scene and understanding it. 22 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:23,400 Speaker 2: With the Bonnie and Clyde vehicle. 23 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:28,120 Speaker 1: There were three or four fake Bonnie and Clyde cars, 24 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: people that actually took similar vehicles and shot them up 25 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: so that they could make money with these cars. Ted 26 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: Hinton put a stop to that because he at the 27 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 1: time in nineteen thirty four marked that car in a 28 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 1: place only he knew, in a way that only he knew, 29 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 1: so that when it literally went to trial, he was 30 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: able to pinpoint which vehicle was the authentic Bonnie and 31 00:01:56,040 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 1: Clyde death car. Fifty miles east of it. On a 32 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 1: small farm, jealousy brewed as hot as the Georgia sun. 33 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 1: On July fourteenth, nineteen forty six, a sharecropper named Roger 34 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 1: Malcolm was accused of stabbing a farmer named Barnett Hester 35 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 1: with an ice pick. Mister Malcolm tried to run, but 36 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: was captured by the Hester family and held until sheriff 37 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:31,079 Speaker 1: deputies could arrive. About six point thirty. Mister Malcolm went 38 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: to jail that night. His wife was fearful that a 39 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:39,800 Speaker 1: mob would storm the jail and kill him, so she 40 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:43,640 Speaker 1: begged her boss. Lloyd Harrison, who owned the farm, was 41 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: one of the largest land owners in Monroe County, to 42 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 1: please go bail him out so they wouldn't kill him, 43 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 1: and Lloyd Harrison said no. Two days later, a mob 44 00:02:56,760 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 1: met about three miles south out on Highway one at 45 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 1: Toller's Woods. Now there's no documentation of what that meeting 46 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 1: was about, but I've always believed they met to plan 47 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:15,119 Speaker 1: the murder of mister Malcolm. Miss Malcolm asked Lloy Harrison 48 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: repeatedly for the next eleven days to please go bail 49 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 1: him out. 50 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 2: To save his life. He refused. 51 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:28,359 Speaker 1: Then suddenly, on July twenty fifth, he told Miss Malcolm 52 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 1: go get the Dorsey's and let's go to town and 53 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: get Roger out of jail. Now Roger's bell was six 54 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: hundred dollars today, that's about ten thousand dollars. Eleven days 55 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 1: after the stabbing, Roger was a free man, and he 56 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: and his wife, Dorothy, and George and May Murray went 57 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 1: and got into Lloy Harrison's car and headed back to 58 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 1: his farm. Mister Harrison did not go back on the 59 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 1: paved road as the crow flies to his far He 60 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: took the unpaved long way home. As he approached the 61 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 1: small moors Ford Bridge, there was a mob waiting twenty 62 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: to twenty five men were on that bridge and blocked 63 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:19,160 Speaker 1: him in the front and in the back in his 64 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 1: car came to a complete stop. The men demanded that 65 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 1: Roger get out of the car. There was a man 66 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:31,479 Speaker 1: in a three piece suit with a big brim hat 67 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: that approached the car unmasked with a firearm, and he 68 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: ordered mister Malcolm out of the car, and then he 69 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:43,040 Speaker 1: ordered mister Dorsey out of the car. Miss Dorsey recognized 70 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:46,799 Speaker 1: several of the men. She begged them by the name 71 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:51,480 Speaker 1: not to kill her husband. All four victims were tied together, 72 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 1: and the man in the suit ordered everyone to shoot 73 00:04:56,560 --> 00:05:02,160 Speaker 1: at the count of three. He repeated this instruction numerous times, 74 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 1: ensuring that every single man on that bridge shot, so 75 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: that everyone was guilty of murder, so that no one 76 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 1: would break ranks and talk. Lloyd Harrison was unharmed and 77 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 1: was able to go on his way. He told law 78 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: enforce men he didn't recognize anybody on the bridge. Now 79 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:27,719 Speaker 1: he's the wealthiest landowner in this county, and he didn't 80 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 1: recognize one man out of twenty five. 81 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 2: Yet his young female. 82 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 1: Worker knew several by name. I saw some similarities in 83 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: these two cases. Now one was nineteen thirty four and 84 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 1: the other case was nineteen forty six. And what I 85 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:54,280 Speaker 1: found striking was both cases started in a car. Someone 86 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 1: in each of the cars was accused of killing or 87 00:05:58,560 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: attempting to kill somebody. 88 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 2: The shooters were laying in wait. 89 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:10,160 Speaker 1: On both cases, all shooters shot multiple times into the subjects. 90 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:13,919 Speaker 1: Crowds gathered at both scenes and took mementos from the scenes. 91 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 1: Dead bodies had their pictures put in the paper. More 92 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 1: than one person was shot at both scenes. Different weapons 93 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 1: were used in both of these scenes. Subjects were unaware 94 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 1: that there was a mob laying in wait. Clyde Barrow 95 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 1: tried to join the Navy, and George Dorsey was in 96 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 1: the service. 97 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 2: He was in the Army. 98 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 1: In both cases, women were also shot and killed, which 99 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 1: was extraordinarily rare. Both cases, the subjects had just gotten 100 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 1: something to eat, and in both cases they were set 101 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 1: up to stop at a location where they were killed. Y'all, 102 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: let's get into this case and let's talk about it 103 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 1: from somebody that's been to the scene. And tonight I 104 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 1: have the absolute honor to welcome Janie Duncan. Janis is 105 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 1: a clinical therapist. She's a behavioral consultant and in her 106 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 1: free time she has decided to be a doctoral candidate. 107 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: She's a college she's a college professor. She is a 108 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 1: former coworker of mine. She is my dear friend, and 109 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 1: she is one of the most gifted investigative minds I've 110 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 1: ever worked with. So Jannis Duncan, welcome to z Own seven. Hey, 111 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 1: And I will tell you she's got a fabulous sense 112 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 1: of humor, which when you work the type of cases 113 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:49,239 Speaker 1: that we do, it certainly is a gift. 114 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 2: And I'll tell you I. 115 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 1: Will tell you all that this case in particular, we 116 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: had some good nights up in the war room. So Janie, 117 00:07:57,120 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: I think it's important when we're talking about this case, 118 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 1: I want to go ahead and tell the folks it's 119 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 1: the Moor's Ford Bridge Lyncheon. It's the last mass lyncheon 120 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 1: in the United States. And when we started the Cold 121 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 1: Case Investigative Research Institute, Janis Duncan was one of those 122 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: people that would come in early, stay late, come during 123 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 1: a holiday weekend to make sure the students got all 124 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 1: they needed in order to take these cases to the 125 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: level that we needed them to get to to try 126 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: to find some answers and solvability factors. Janice, Let's talk 127 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:35,560 Speaker 1: a little bit about back in the day on this case, 128 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 1: in particular when we would be in the war room, 129 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:45,199 Speaker 1: sometimes past midnight, meeting with representatives and senators and political 130 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:51,080 Speaker 1: figures and religious figures, trying to navigate this case. When 131 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 1: we first got into it, my memory is you and 132 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: I were just having a blast that we were learning 133 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 1: so much, and we were meeting some incredible people, and 134 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:04,080 Speaker 1: the students were just on fire with this back. 135 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 3: They were I remember mostly first of all the human 136 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 3: from our students, which was also very helpful. Yes, they 137 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 3: were also very dedicated to their studies too, they. 138 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 4: Wanted to learn. 139 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:21,319 Speaker 3: One of the things that we always remember trying to 140 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 3: do with the students was to quote unquote give them 141 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 3: hands on experience as best as we could without actually 142 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:35,679 Speaker 3: taking them out on an active crime scene. So you 143 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 3: were always really instrumental in assisting us in recreating crime scenes. 144 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 3: But I think that when we actually visited this scene, 145 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 3: I don't know that we actually recognized it initially because 146 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 3: by the end of it, after all those hours we 147 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 3: were out there, I know you remember how emotional it 148 00:09:56,040 --> 00:10:00,200 Speaker 3: actually got, particularly for me, And how do you go 149 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 3: from laughing and joking to crying and shaking with anxiety. 150 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 3: So I think that it's an experience that I'll never forget. 151 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 3: It has always stayed with me, and I think that 152 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 3: the students could also. Those former students can tell you 153 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:23,199 Speaker 3: that that was a defining moment in their educational careers. 154 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 1: The education that we were given was so real and 155 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 1: so raw because you had gone to a university. I 156 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 1: don't even know how to properly say it. That the 157 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 1: historical value that you were given as a young person, 158 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 1: I don't think can be overstated. When you think of 159 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:49,679 Speaker 1: the Duskegee Airman, I mean, there's nobody that shouldn't stop 160 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:52,679 Speaker 1: dead in their tracks and understand what you're talking about. Right, 161 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: So you had that at your university. You had the 162 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:00,079 Speaker 1: Lynching Museum, and I think a lot of people I 163 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 1: didn't even know that exists. But that's one of the 164 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 1: places that we tapped into while working this case. 165 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:07,200 Speaker 3: And I don't think I've ever shared this with you, 166 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 3: but when I was actually a student there, well, you 167 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 3: know how it was on one of those spirited nights 168 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 3: that we were out laid, probably just come from a party, 169 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 3: you know, had been drinking kool aid all night or something, 170 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 3: and we actually ended up on the other side of campus, 171 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:32,479 Speaker 3: some friends of mine. It was completely on the opposite 172 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:35,439 Speaker 3: side of where our dormitories were. 173 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:39,319 Speaker 4: But anyway, we ended up over there. And this is long. 174 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 3: Before like now, the campus is completely different almost as 175 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 3: far as the renovations and the things they built. But 176 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 3: we actually were able to see the inside of one 177 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 3: of the areas where they actually kept these men that 178 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 3: they experimented on, and everything was almost still intact. Now, 179 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 3: of course it was dirty, it was dusty, but the 180 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 3: beds were still there. You really couldn't see the bloodstains, 181 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 3: but it was you could see remnants of where something 182 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 3: was there. So, needless to say at that time, because 183 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:13,559 Speaker 3: that was back in the nineties, we got the hell 184 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 3: out of there, but it was just unreal that it 185 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:18,719 Speaker 3: was actually still there intact the way that it was 186 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:21,959 Speaker 3: and they had never done anything with it at that point. 187 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: That's the kind of history that you were witnessed to, right, 188 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 1: I mean, that's remarkable, And I know our students there 189 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 1: was a night up. 190 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 2: In the war room and they. 191 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: Had all the you know, maps on the wall, and 192 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 1: they had the photographs and statements and all that sort 193 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 1: of thing, and they. 194 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 2: Were there was a group. Tammy was involved, Bates was involved. 195 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:46,680 Speaker 1: They were that group, and they were talking behind me, 196 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: and you were sitting to my right and Don Bela 197 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 1: was sitting to my left, and the students were just 198 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 1: going back and forth about what can we do. It's 199 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 1: been you know, seventy years, and can anything be done? 200 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 1: And I just offhand said, well, bullets don't disintegrate. And 201 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 1: then I remember we looked at each other and we're like, 202 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 1: bullets don't disintegrate, right, let's go get them exactly so, 203 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 1: and I remember at that point, you know, Dawn was like, well, 204 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 1: you're gonna need a warrant. You know, always a lawyer, always. 205 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 2: A downer, So stay down. 206 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:23,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean you're like, we can get over that fence, 207 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 1: are you kidding? But it was important because that night 208 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 1: changed everything as far as what the Institute was absolutely 209 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:34,839 Speaker 1: going to be about. We were no longer going to 210 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 1: be theory based. We were going to be action oriented 211 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 1: and if we can go locate some evidence, then let's 212 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 1: do it. 213 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 2: For this case. 214 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 1: The last mass lynching, Moore's Ford Bridge, you had at 215 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 1: least twenty to twenty five people shooting a multitude of 216 00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 1: different weapons from handguns to long gun you know, rifles 217 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 1: and shotguns, and this just barrage of gunfire that rang 218 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:10,680 Speaker 1: out and it ran right along the Appalachi River. There 219 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 1: was one witness, remember that, Jennie, I do. So there 220 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:17,560 Speaker 1: was a little boy, y'all that was hiding in the field. 221 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 1: He had been playing and he saw all the cars 222 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: and he identified one car and said it was tan 223 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 1: with you know, the red dome light on the top. 224 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 1: It was a sheriff's vehicle and they thought from South Carolina. 225 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 1: He kind of pinpointed exactly where this took place. And 226 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 1: for us, again we say, well, let's go, let's go 227 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: do what we do. We made the students understand the times. 228 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 1: So when you work a cold case, one of the 229 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 1: most important things is you have to understand nineteen forty 230 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: six exactly. 231 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 2: So we spent a lot. 232 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: Of time up there explaining what is a sharecropper, what 233 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 1: is a house worth? How do people work their whole 234 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 1: lives and their children work, their grandchildren work, and they're 235 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: still on the same farm because they can't get off 236 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 1: of it. 237 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 3: And I think they had the hardest time understanding that 238 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 3: because of where their mindset and the way the world 239 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 3: was at that time, they couldn't even imagine it. That 240 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 3: was an interesting part. So I think it was really 241 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 3: important that we actually took that step to go out 242 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 3: there because they couldn't visualize it at all. To them, 243 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 3: I think at some point it was, oh, this is 244 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 3: just this is just history, This is just these are 245 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 3: just words, you know, this is just the way that 246 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 3: this was actually written and explained. But being there and 247 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 3: actually feeling that changed everything for them about this case. 248 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 1: When we were getting ready to go literally from classroom 249 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 1: to crime scene, and we talked about you know, the times, 250 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 1: what is the sharecropper, the voting rights, you know, the 251 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 1: different politicians and things. What was the turning point for 252 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 1: you other than meeting with Johnny Leecley. 253 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 3: When I started in this field was private probation, then 254 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 3: I went to the parole office, then I went to 255 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 3: house arrest. 256 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 4: Then I went to private directions. 257 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 3: So it's almost like a part of me was kind 258 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 3: of like a student at the same time, because at 259 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 3: the same time I couldn't imagine it either. You know, 260 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 3: crime was different than the way that law enforcement responded 261 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 3: to crime was different at that time. To actually hear 262 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 3: from someone who was causing the pain. I think was 263 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 3: the turning point for me. I was a little reluctant, 264 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 3: but I was actually interested, Like is this guy really serious? 265 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 3: Is he really going to talk to us about these things? 266 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 3: I just couldn't imagine that. 267 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 1: For those that work in our world, this is like 268 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 1: Super Bowl Sunday. You're never going to have the Imperial 269 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 1: Wizard of the klu Klutzklan talk to you. You're you're 270 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:05,119 Speaker 1: never going to have that person lay out a case 271 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:08,399 Speaker 1: and why this is clan connected or why it's not. 272 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 2: And so we had the opportunity to do this and 273 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 2: it was real cloak. 274 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:17,959 Speaker 1: And dagger, and you know, again, Janis and I worked 275 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 1: at a college predominantly African American with an African American president, 276 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 1: and you know when you buzz in his office real 277 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 1: quick and go, hey, we got a speaker next week, 278 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 1: We're going to meet with great love it. I like 279 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:31,679 Speaker 1: it when y'all have people here, gets the students, you know, 280 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 1: connected to the real world and that sort of thing. 281 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 1: And I'm like great, and he's like, who is it? 282 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:43,359 Speaker 1: The former Imperial Wizard of the plan. He's like, I 283 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 1: think you need to have a seat, right, you got 284 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:50,239 Speaker 1: to talk about it a little bit, and then he 285 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:53,959 Speaker 1: understood and he got it, and then it was our 286 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:56,119 Speaker 1: job to now go tell the students because we couldn't 287 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 1: take everybody. So we had picked who we thought was 288 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 1: an eclectic group, a good group, a solid group. But 289 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 1: I remember Bates looked right at me. Yeah, and she said, 290 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:14,639 Speaker 1: what do you mean, farmer? And I said, well, I 291 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: have a good friend that's divorced but still has sex 292 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 1: with her former husband. So I don't know what it means. 293 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:24,440 Speaker 1: I just know that that's how he introduced himself as 294 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 1: the former. 295 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:27,640 Speaker 2: I said, but let's do this. Let's meet with him, 296 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:29,120 Speaker 2: see what he has to say. 297 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 1: Because the reality is in this profession, when somebody calls 298 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:37,640 Speaker 1: the police, or you're assigned somebody during probation or parole, 299 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 1: or you're working into jail, you don't get to decide 300 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:46,440 Speaker 1: who you work with. Absolutely, So you have got to 301 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 1: be able to talk to anybody, you know, You've got 302 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:52,439 Speaker 1: to be able to get that information that you need 303 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:54,440 Speaker 1: to move this case in some way. 304 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 2: So that's what we're going to try to do. And 305 00:18:57,600 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 2: she was like, m but. 306 00:18:59,080 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 3: I'll be honest with you. 307 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 4: I wasn't really sold either. 308 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 3: Initially, I was a little and I think that's just 309 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 3: because because. 310 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:09,160 Speaker 4: I am black, and because. 311 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 3: I don't know, that's just an emotional type of topic. 312 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:18,399 Speaker 4: And I don't know. 313 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 3: Okay, of course we know that. You know, there are 314 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:26,400 Speaker 3: a lot of people that probably still have those types 315 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 3: of beliefs, but they're not walking around in white sheets 316 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:33,920 Speaker 3: and hoods. But to actually, I don't think I ever 317 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 3: thought I would actually be sitting that close to one 318 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:41,359 Speaker 3: and actually having that kind of dialogue. But once he 319 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:44,440 Speaker 3: got to talking, you know, I was sitting there giving 320 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 3: him the side eye too quietly. But but once he 321 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:51,720 Speaker 3: got going, and you know, in the conversation, I could 322 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 3: see how genuine he actually was. 323 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:56,920 Speaker 4: It just it poured out of him. 324 00:19:57,280 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you it's one of the most 325 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 1: remarkable meetings I've ever seen, I think because I think 326 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:05,359 Speaker 1: I watched Bates more than anybody in that meeting, because. 327 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 2: She was angry, but she wanted to go. 328 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 1: She wanted to do the you know, professional thing, as 329 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:14,639 Speaker 1: it were, and she thought he might seriously have some 330 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:18,399 Speaker 1: great intel, which is what we were all hoping. But 331 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:23,200 Speaker 1: this gentleman's name was Johnny Lee Clearing, and Johnny Lee 332 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 1: agreed to meet with us. He had had some death 333 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:30,400 Speaker 1: threats since leaving the clan, so he said, I will 334 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:32,959 Speaker 1: only tell you the address where I'll meet y'all that morning, 335 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:36,120 Speaker 1: and we went and we met with him kind of 336 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 1: cloak and dagger, you know, right, and you know, when 337 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 1: he started to talk, I was I went right in, 338 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 1: you know, let's talk about more sport. 339 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 2: Was it a clan ordered hit? You know? 340 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 1: And he went, well, I'll get there, but is it 341 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 1: okay with you if I talked to. 342 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:57,119 Speaker 2: The students first, and I was like, of course. 343 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 1: And he started explaining his childhood, and one of our 344 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 1: students had a similar story where her parents she had 345 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 1: lost both of them to violence. And he started to 346 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:17,119 Speaker 1: explain that his mom died of an overdose and his 347 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 1: dad committed suicide in front of him. And I watched 348 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 1: Lashan and she kind of looked at me, and she 349 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 1: looked back at him, and I'm like, Okay, this might 350 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 1: go differently than any of us ever expected. And as 351 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 1: he kept telling that story, and then he told of 352 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:43,400 Speaker 1: more trauma that he suffered and more abuse that he suffered, 353 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 1: his story started to resonate with some of our students 354 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 1: that had young people in their family that went toward 355 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 1: a gang for comfort and money and family type feelings. 356 00:21:56,200 --> 00:22:00,640 Speaker 1: They got it, they understood that. Wait a minute, he's 357 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 1: telling me a story that's got nothing to do with 358 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 1: race and everything to do with how he felt and 359 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 1: what he needed. 360 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:13,159 Speaker 2: And what he wasn't getting. And you know, you're looking at. 361 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: Some of these young people going, ain't that your story exactly? 362 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:19,359 Speaker 3: And you know, the funny thing about that is that 363 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 3: I think that's when I was getting my second masters 364 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,679 Speaker 3: in psychology, which is why I'm a therapist today. 365 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:30,480 Speaker 4: But that right there, I think. 366 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:32,879 Speaker 3: When I had I remember having a conversation with a 367 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:36,360 Speaker 3: few of the students after that, and I was trying 368 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,639 Speaker 3: to explain to them too, you have to start looking 369 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:42,840 Speaker 3: at things you need to know or kind of try 370 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:46,880 Speaker 3: to get an understanding of what caused him to actually 371 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:50,679 Speaker 3: behave that way and actually to have those beliefs. And 372 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 3: so we started revisiting that conversation that he had about 373 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 3: the violence and abusive you know, that childhood that he had, 374 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 3: you know, the violence that he saw, the violenceated witness, 375 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:05,440 Speaker 3: and that kind of trauma can cause you to go 376 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,639 Speaker 3: any kind of way anyway, like you said, joining gangs 377 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 3: or doing all these things just to find some type 378 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 3: of comfort, or it may have been almost like a 379 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:18,199 Speaker 3: coping skill form, you know, some way to kind of 380 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:22,200 Speaker 3: manage those feelings, you know, or as an escape. Some 381 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:25,679 Speaker 3: people turn to drugs, some people do other things. So 382 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,120 Speaker 3: I think he was pretty troubled the fact that he 383 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,159 Speaker 3: was able to actually get to a place in his 384 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 3: life where he was actually able to leave the clan 385 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 3: and actually start telling his story I think it was 386 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:41,440 Speaker 3: actually therapeutic for him too. 387 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 1: And as his story went on, he told about making 388 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,240 Speaker 1: a lot of money. He talked about how he actually 389 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,439 Speaker 1: got into the Klan, that all his life he was 390 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 1: told he was worthless, wasn't going to ever amount anything, 391 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,880 Speaker 1: was just white trash. And suddenly there's a guy one 392 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,920 Speaker 1: saying white people are the greatest, that white people invented 393 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 1: airplanes and automobiles and everything else worth anything. And it 394 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:15,399 Speaker 1: shocked him because he had never heard anybody brag about 395 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 1: his race. And he wrote the man basically a fan letter, 396 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:21,679 Speaker 1: and he didn't think anything else about it. 397 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:22,200 Speaker 2: That was it. 398 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:24,919 Speaker 1: And then one day this limousine pulls up and this 399 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:27,159 Speaker 1: man gets out and says, are you Johnny Lee Cleary? 400 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:31,359 Speaker 1: And he says yes, and he said, well, if you 401 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:33,639 Speaker 1: come with me today, you'll have a job, you'll live 402 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:35,359 Speaker 1: in a mansion, you'll go to school, and you'll have 403 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 1: brand new clothes. And if you ever had a steak dinner. 404 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 1: And he said, no, sir, I've never had a steak dinner. 405 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 1: And he said, well you'll have one tonight. 406 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,480 Speaker 3: And imagine how that silence to someone who had been 407 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 3: through his experiences. 408 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 1: This kid was living in a trailer with his teenage 409 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 1: sister and her boyfriend that were not great to him. 410 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,639 Speaker 1: To the right was a group of African American kids 411 00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 1: and he didn't fit in and he got beat up 412 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,119 Speaker 1: a lot. So when this guy comes along and offers 413 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 1: him literally the world, he got in that limousine quick 414 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 1: as he could and he started doing little jobs, just 415 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 1: like some of our kids in gangs. 416 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 2: He was just making deliveries. 417 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:18,400 Speaker 1: He was just taking packages and you know, doing errands 418 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,399 Speaker 1: for these grown men. He didn't know what he was 419 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 1: really doing, but he was making crazy money. Right when 420 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 1: you were working in probation, you saw this repeatedly, didn't you. 421 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:29,200 Speaker 4: I did. 422 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:31,639 Speaker 1: Some of these folks that are running gags, I mean 423 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 1: they're grooming children just like sexual predators do. 424 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:35,880 Speaker 4: Oh. 425 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:40,119 Speaker 1: Absolutely, and they're not just lip service. They're giving you 426 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 1: what they say they're going to give you. And now 427 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 1: you've got a pocket full of money and your brand 428 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:47,480 Speaker 1: new clothes, you're eating steak. And it ain't long before 429 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 1: you did school. And Johnny Lee clearly lived it. And 430 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,440 Speaker 1: then it was time to get promoted. So he had 431 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 1: to start earning his keep, so to speak. And you know, 432 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 1: that's when his life really got. As they say for 433 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 1: the folks at home, what started to happen was you 434 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,879 Speaker 1: had some good people trying to vote, and he was 435 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 1: going to put a stop to it. And he was 436 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 1: going to use intimidation, he was going to use any 437 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 1: means that he had at his disposal, little Jo, you know, 438 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 1: stop black churches from promoting voter registration. So one of 439 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:30,160 Speaker 1: the first things he did was he decided, well, I'm 440 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 1: gonna go over there and burn the church. 441 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 2: And he did. 442 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, and do you remember what happened The next morning 443 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:40,160 Speaker 1: He drove by to see his handiwork and they were 444 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 1: singing in the ashes smoldering steel. They were standing and singing, 445 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,440 Speaker 1: and the preacher saw him drive by and waved to him. 446 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 4: Come over. 447 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 1: Johnny Lee was like, you got to be kidding me, 448 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:55,680 Speaker 1: Why is he waving at me? Why is he being 449 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:56,200 Speaker 1: nice to me? 450 00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 4: And see that moment could have been confusing for him. 451 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 1: You should have been angry, you should have been afraid 452 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 1: of me, you should be running. But they weren't. They 453 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 1: were happy for all intentsive purposes, they were joyful. He 454 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:10,200 Speaker 1: did not understand it. 455 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:15,920 Speaker 3: I often wondered if he ever wanted to separate himself 456 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,680 Speaker 3: from that at some point prior to when he actually did, 457 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,600 Speaker 3: And was that like an internal battle that he had. 458 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 1: I think possibly, because I think Reverend Watt spotted it. 459 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 1: I mean he saw it in him. He saw that 460 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 1: there was good in him. He saw that you don't 461 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:34,800 Speaker 1: have real hate for anybody. 462 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:36,119 Speaker 4: It's learned behavior. 463 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:46,440 Speaker 1: The first time we went out to the bridge, we're 464 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 1: just walking, we're taking pictures. There's no activity, there's no reenactment, 465 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 1: there's nothing. We just are visually looking at the bridge. 466 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:53,440 Speaker 2: That's it. 467 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,439 Speaker 1: Little two lane road out in the middle of nothing, 468 00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 1: surrounded by woods and farms. 469 00:27:58,920 --> 00:27:59,440 Speaker 2: That was it. 470 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,600 Speaker 1: But I remember looking at the bridge and right there 471 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 1: on the railing was spray paint KKK. 472 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I'm like seriously, and. 473 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:16,120 Speaker 3: I'm like thinking, y'all ready to go to McDonald's. 474 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:19,360 Speaker 2: It was it was almost so ludicrous to me. 475 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,480 Speaker 3: So juvenile, but I was still looking for the keys. 476 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 1: And I understand, but to me it was so juvenile 477 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,919 Speaker 1: and ridiculous. There was no fear in it for me 478 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,959 Speaker 1: because that was just almost so obvious that that's what 479 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 1: you would spray paint. 480 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:36,639 Speaker 2: It was almost like you didn't even try. 481 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 1: You know, this was something that you know, to me, 482 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 1: was not part of the truth, that wasn't. 483 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 2: Part of why we were even there. 484 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 1: And I was not convinced that the Klan had anything 485 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 1: to do with this lyncheon. I thought it was just 486 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 1: the town's folk. I thought it was the Hester family 487 00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 1: and Lloyd Harrison and that group. Now, I want to 488 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 1: be very very clear. That's not to say there weren't 489 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 1: klansmen on the bridge exactly, but there were klansmen on 490 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 1: the bridge the same that there were Methodists on the bridge. 491 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 1: You just happen to be more than one thing. You 492 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 1: can be a klansman and a Methodist and a doctor. 493 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,400 Speaker 1: You can be a klansman, an episcopagan and a lawyer. 494 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 1: I mean, you can be all of these things at 495 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 1: the same time. But it never felt to me that 496 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 1: it was a clan orchestrated hit. And here's the thing 497 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 1: about you. You and I, I would say, at times, 498 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 1: our humor is beyond irreverent. We could get in trouble 499 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 1: a lot, we could at work. It was funny. I 500 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:52,479 Speaker 1: wouldn't take any of it back. But I think that humor, 501 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,840 Speaker 1: again in this career, helped save you a little bit. 502 00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 1: It's is because I remember the night we went to 503 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,479 Speaker 1: the bridge. If you're living in it, and you're standing 504 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 1: in these woods and y'all, there ain't no houses near, 505 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 1: there's no street lights, there's no moon. 506 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 2: I mean, it was dark, and all of. 507 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 1: A sudden, out of nowhere, you see this truck coming 508 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 1: down this little bitty two lane road, and you don't 509 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 1: know what's going to happen. And you know that people 510 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 1: know that you're there because there's nothing there. So when 511 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,760 Speaker 1: you stop at the only you know, gas station, and 512 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 1: you stop at the only convenience store, and you stop 513 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 1: at the only little tiny restaurant, they know you're there. 514 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 1: And people sometimes come to see what you're doing. Sometimes 515 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 1: they try to scare you off. But we weren't the 516 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:40,240 Speaker 1: group that was gonna be scared off. 517 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 2: I tell you that, no and it. 518 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 3: Was obvious they were trying to intimidate us because they 519 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 3: literally they won't move it. And then all of a 520 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 3: sudden they slowed down. Okay, it's miss Daisy, and now confused, 521 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 3: why are you slowing down that much? And they literally 522 00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 3: their heads were literally turned and they were looking directly 523 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:00,160 Speaker 3: at us. 524 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 2: Yep, yeah, directly at us. Well, you know again, when you. 525 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:11,479 Speaker 1: Have the last mass lynching, and that's how everybody calls it, 526 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 1: that's what everybody understands it to be. And they know 527 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 1: we've met with the ex Imperial Wizard of the Klan, 528 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:21,960 Speaker 1: and we've met with politicians and religious leaders. I mean, 529 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 1: our students met some incredible people. We met some incredible people. 530 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 1: For me, Moore's Ford Bridge it is a civil rights case. 531 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:35,960 Speaker 1: It is for me one of those cases that you 532 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 1: just take with you and you say, you know what, 533 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 1: when somebody says it's seventy years old, there ain't nothing 534 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 1: you can do. I know they're wrong because we did 535 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 1: a lot on this case. We did, you know, your 536 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 1: area of expertise, and some of the other folks that 537 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:55,320 Speaker 1: we brought along, I believe anyway, put this case in 538 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 1: a spotlight that it had never been in because we 539 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 1: brought an our cheologists, we brought somebody from DNR that 540 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 1: was an artifacts expert, we had a ballistics expert. 541 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 2: We had you, we had me. 542 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: I mean it was significant, and then we had prosecutors. 543 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 1: And so when we set out to try to find 544 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 1: some evidence, and we decided, well, there's only one way 545 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 1: to get out there without a warrant, and that's just 546 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 1: to get permission. 547 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 2: And we did that. 548 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,960 Speaker 1: Ironically, it was a farmer and he's like, yeah, you 549 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 1: can come out here and search it. 550 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:35,560 Speaker 2: And it's I think one. 551 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 1: Of the greatest weekends that we've had as far as 552 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:40,960 Speaker 1: cold case investigative work. 553 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 3: Of course, nobody ever expected to find anything. If you did, 554 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:46,880 Speaker 3: it might have been one little showcase and that may 555 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 3: have been here. 556 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 4: Had to dig for it. 557 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:52,480 Speaker 3: But the fact that they were literally sitting right there 558 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 3: on top of the ground, like did somebody just come 559 00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 3: scattered these out here or what like? It was unbelievable. 560 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:06,000 Speaker 3: And I still can't believe they were, Like who actually 561 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:09,520 Speaker 3: walked that scene before the fashion investigate that scene? I 562 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 3: know the times were different, but how do you leave all? 563 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 4: How is that? How was it all? 564 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 3: It almost seemed like it was still intact the entire 565 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:20,600 Speaker 3: crime scene. It was just still intact. 566 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 2: Well, the first thing we had to do was clear it. 567 00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 1: And you remember, I mean even Huck was chopping down 568 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:30,040 Speaker 1: trees and you and Caroline were moving mattresses and beer cans, 569 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,040 Speaker 1: and right all the students. 570 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 2: Went to work. 571 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 1: Our students did the labor of clearing the area. Then 572 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 1: the Kinnesaw students were the archaeologist, and then Georgia State 573 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:46,360 Speaker 1: brought students that had ground penetrating radar right and so 574 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 1: we were able to show that the bullets that were 575 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 1: not on top of the ground and the shellcasings that 576 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 1: weren't right on top were two inches underground, straight down. 577 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:01,520 Speaker 2: This wasn't a cartoon. Bullets don't come out of a gun, 578 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:03,479 Speaker 2: change direction and goes straight in the ground. 579 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,719 Speaker 1: So that to me, when you started putting flags in 580 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:12,240 Speaker 1: where every bullet, fragment or casing was found, it started 581 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:16,080 Speaker 1: to be a very clear picture center mass, center mass, 582 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,720 Speaker 1: center mass, center mass, where the four victims were laying. 583 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:22,799 Speaker 1: And it was very clear to me. We had our 584 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:28,000 Speaker 1: first bullet in forty five minutes, and after three days 585 00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:33,200 Speaker 1: we had over one hundred bullets, fragments, casinges or artifacts. 586 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:34,719 Speaker 1: I mean, that's remarkable to me. 587 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:35,840 Speaker 4: It still amazes me. 588 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:39,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think in that moment, Gus, when everything 589 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 3: kind of I don't even think we're even joking anymore. 590 00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:46,400 Speaker 3: After that, nobody was smiling. It was just emotional. 591 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,799 Speaker 1: The very first one, we're all high five and we're 592 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,560 Speaker 1: all excited because it actually happened, and we're making phone calls. Member, 593 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,200 Speaker 1: we called the president, we called other experts that couldn't 594 00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:59,399 Speaker 1: make it that day, and we were telling everybody because 595 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,520 Speaker 1: we were just jubilant. I mean, there was no way 596 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,560 Speaker 1: we had just done this. And then we found five, 597 00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:08,280 Speaker 1: and then we found eleven, and then we found twenty seven, 598 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,960 Speaker 1: and then again after the weekend is over, we have 599 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:14,759 Speaker 1: over one hundred. And I think there were a couple 600 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:18,160 Speaker 1: of significant things for me. One was a button, One 601 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:23,160 Speaker 1: was a cardboard casing for shotgun shell, and one was 602 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 1: a nickel literally from nineteen forty six. I mean, you can't. 603 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:28,440 Speaker 2: Argue with that. 604 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:29,840 Speaker 3: To me, you can't. 605 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 1: And then you know that there was twenty people and 606 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,239 Speaker 1: they all had different weapons, and now we have at 607 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:38,680 Speaker 1: least twenty seven different weapons. It was a remarkable day, no. 608 00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:41,200 Speaker 2: Question about it. And do you remember, I'll tell you 609 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:42,080 Speaker 2: when it changed for me. 610 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 1: The family member from the Malcolms was there, do you remember, 611 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 1: And we had that first bullet. It was a bullet, 612 00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,439 Speaker 1: not a casing, and he came over and he said, 613 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:54,239 Speaker 1: can I hold it? And I said, of course, and 614 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:56,920 Speaker 1: I put it in his hand and he asked me, 615 00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:01,880 Speaker 1: is there blood on it? And I could hardly answer 616 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 1: him right because I thought, this precious man literally thinks 617 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:11,360 Speaker 1: his loved one's blood could be on this bullet that 618 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,480 Speaker 1: he is now holding, and wants to know that, even 619 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,720 Speaker 1: though conceptually he knew with all the rain and wind 620 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,560 Speaker 1: and dirt and all that there's not blood left on it. 621 00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:24,920 Speaker 1: But for him, that's where his heart went, and it 622 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:25,880 Speaker 1: was almost too much. 623 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 3: It was I think just if it had been I 624 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 3: think he felt like that would have been something that 625 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:35,320 Speaker 3: he a part of, that person that he could have 626 00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:38,560 Speaker 3: just held on to. I will say when we got 627 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:43,239 Speaker 3: back to campus the following week, we could see the 628 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:47,239 Speaker 3: change in them. I Mean, they were always always so 629 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:52,280 Speaker 3: serious about the importance of, you know, learning from us, 630 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:59,879 Speaker 3: but I think if the entire semester, I think that 631 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:03,960 Speaker 3: right there it was all they needed. They always talked 632 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:07,080 Speaker 3: about hands on experience, hands on experience, and I think 633 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:10,160 Speaker 3: they felt a taste of that because of everything we 634 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:13,200 Speaker 3: experienced that day, the overall impact that it had on 635 00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:13,920 Speaker 3: those students. 636 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:17,520 Speaker 1: Oh, and me one hundred percent, and and my children, 637 00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:21,480 Speaker 1: I mean, Huck and Caroline, you know. But for me, 638 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:27,239 Speaker 1: what I loved also is all the intimidation. We even 639 00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 1: got hate mail, which I called fan mail. 640 00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,480 Speaker 2: Right, you weren't going to stop them. 641 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,920 Speaker 1: Not one person dropped out, not one person didn't want 642 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,240 Speaker 1: to go, not one person didn't show up. If anything, 643 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:42,520 Speaker 1: we turned around and had students from other programs we 644 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,719 Speaker 1: didn't even know, right, and then they had you know, 645 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:51,840 Speaker 1: such you know, great support from some very powerful people. 646 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:53,480 Speaker 2: It was good work. Jannis. 647 00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:56,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I tell you something, I miss bart of days. 648 00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:57,279 Speaker 4: I do. 649 00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:01,120 Speaker 3: I miss those days. To me, that's what. 650 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 4: Education is about. 651 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,719 Speaker 3: Yeah, higher education is different depending on where you were, 652 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:09,240 Speaker 3: but we actually were making a difference. 653 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:11,239 Speaker 2: And you can tell it by the messages we get 654 00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:12,560 Speaker 2: today from those students. 655 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:13,560 Speaker 4: Oh absolutely. 656 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:17,200 Speaker 1: But I can tell you our students that have gone 657 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:19,840 Speaker 1: into this field are some of the best out there. 658 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:22,920 Speaker 1: They are, and you put so much into them, and 659 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:27,600 Speaker 1: you're so proud of them, and they're doing extraordinary. 660 00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:29,799 Speaker 3: Even when the dream Killer gave them one that they 661 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:30,960 Speaker 3: still came on back. 662 00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:33,040 Speaker 2: They came back, They gave me the side. 663 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:34,320 Speaker 4: I ain't came on back. 664 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:36,960 Speaker 2: One more semester. 665 00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:38,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm gonna. 666 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:39,279 Speaker 3: Get out of it this time. You know, I don't 667 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:39,879 Speaker 3: give me this time. 668 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:44,680 Speaker 1: Okay, we'll see it works, it works, Yeah, Janie, I 669 00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:47,200 Speaker 1: can't thank you enough for being with me on scene. 670 00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,160 Speaker 1: I can't thank you enough for working with me all 671 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,680 Speaker 1: those years. And I can't thank you enough for being 672 00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:53,360 Speaker 1: with me tonight. 673 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:56,239 Speaker 3: Oh those are time of the best years, some of 674 00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:58,400 Speaker 3: the best years and save it West Thursday nights. 675 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:01,200 Speaker 2: But I appreciate you so much. And I'm going to 676 00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:02,480 Speaker 2: end Zone seven the way I. 677 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,600 Speaker 1: Always do with a quote from somebody from my Zone 678 00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:09,799 Speaker 1: seven And this quote comes from Representative Tyrone Brooks, and 679 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:16,920 Speaker 1: Representative Brooks said to me and Janice Duncan and our students. Quote. 680 00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 1: This crime got the attention of a college student, you know, 681 00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:24,200 Speaker 1: a morehouse man, a seventeen year old who took the 682 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:28,600 Speaker 1: time to write a letter to the Atlanta Constitution because 683 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:32,840 Speaker 1: he was mad about the immortality of this racism. 684 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:35,520 Speaker 2: And the letter clearly showed that. 685 00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:38,120 Speaker 1: He had a passion for social justice. 686 00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:41,600 Speaker 2: The letter was signed very simply. 687 00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:43,200 Speaker 4: M. L. 688 00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:44,040 Speaker 2: King Jr. 689 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:49,239 Speaker 1: So you college students here with Cheryl and Janice can 690 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:50,000 Speaker 1: do something. 691 00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:56,160 Speaker 2: You have done something. I'm Cheryl McCollum and this is Zone. 692 00:39:55,920 --> 00:40:07,880 Speaker 1: Seven attacks such pagan