1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:02,480 Speaker 1: Podcast play God. 2 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 2: Welcome to the Taking a Walk Podcast, Music History on foot. 3 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:18,120 Speaker 2: You can find the podcast on Apple, Spotify, the podcast playground, 4 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts. This episode with your 5 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:25,279 Speaker 2: host Buzz Night as a guest who's been in the 6 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 2: middle of music history his entire career. Danny Goldberg is 7 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:34,559 Speaker 2: the president of gold Village Entertainment. His career accomplishments include 8 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 2: personal manager, label president, author, and public relations man. Danny 9 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:45,200 Speaker 2: Goldberg is Buzz Night's guest on Taking a Walk Next. 10 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:49,559 Speaker 3: Well, Danny, thank you so much for being on the 11 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 3: Taking a Walk podcast. 12 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:53,480 Speaker 1: We are at your palatial. 13 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 3: Home office here in midtown Manhattan. I was the idiot 14 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 3: that said to Danny, Hey, Danny, maybe we could take 15 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 3: a walk on a side street, and he goes. 16 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, but I'm right around the corner from Penn Station. 17 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:07,960 Speaker 1: There's no quiet side. True. 18 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:10,959 Speaker 4: That is true. This is a noisy neighborhood. But this 19 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:13,479 Speaker 4: has been a good office for me these last few years. 20 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:16,559 Speaker 1: It's near all the trains. Perfect. 21 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 3: So when did you realize you were first hooked in 22 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:20,959 Speaker 3: your life on music? 23 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: Do you remember that moment? I think it was. I 24 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 1: think it was in high school. 25 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:35,679 Speaker 4: I was walking down the corridor, and in those days 26 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 4: it was just the beginning of portable record players and 27 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 4: a kid who I didn't know that well, who was 28 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 4: her old of me? He says, you've got to listen 29 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:46,119 Speaker 4: to this, And it was a ballot of a thin 30 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 4: Man by Dylan on the album Highway sixty one that 31 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 4: just had come out with the famous tagline something is 32 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 4: happening here and you don't know what it is, do you, 33 00:01:55,040 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 4: mister Jones? And that was quite a moment that a 34 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:08,639 Speaker 4: record could have so much emotional and intellectual depth, you know, 35 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 4: it wasn't just something to sing along to or party two. 36 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 4: So that was certainly a key moment, you know, in 37 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 4: terms of my love affair. 38 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 1: With rock and roll. 39 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 4: I mean I also the summer before I had heard 40 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 4: Steve phil Oaks's song love Me, Love Me, I'm a Liberal, 41 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 4: and that was also quite an eye opener for me. 42 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 4: So those who were probably the two important moments. 43 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: And then a third moment was the first time I 44 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 1: ever smoked pot. 45 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 4: And I remember to this day, which is this is 46 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:45,799 Speaker 4: all nineteen sixty five, Fall of sixty five. 47 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 1: Basically the records that were played at the party. It 48 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: was the Love and spoonful daydream. 49 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 4: It was out of our heads by the Rolling Stones, 50 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:57,079 Speaker 4: rubber sold by the Beatles. So that group of moments 51 00:02:57,120 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 4: is clustered together in my teenage memories, but. 52 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:04,079 Speaker 1: One or more of those were when I fell in 53 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 1: love with the culture. 54 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 4: I didn't know at that time I was going to 55 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:10,080 Speaker 4: be able to make a living through that passion, but 56 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:11,640 Speaker 4: I knew I had the passion. 57 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 3: And it is quite a coincidence that on this day 58 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 3: that we're recording this podcast, it happens to be Bob Dylan's. 59 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:21,360 Speaker 1: Birthday, second birthday. God bless them, right. 60 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 3: So your leadership skills throughout your career have been quite impressive. 61 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 3: Who shaped your leadership skills? 62 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 4: Well, I had a couple of a few different bosses 63 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 4: that were role models in different ways. The first that 64 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 4: comes to mind would have been Lee Salters, who was 65 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 4: a pr guy extraordinary of the previous generation. And when 66 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 4: I was twenty two, I got a job being kind 67 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 4: of a long haired rock publicist and a company where 68 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 4: they had Barbaras Rising and Frank Sinatra and Broadway shows, 69 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 4: and you know, he was His heyday was really the 70 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 4: forties and the fifties, but he was really understood the 71 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 4: mindset of the news media and the idea that to 72 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 4: get anyone's attention in a press release, he always said 73 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:19,480 Speaker 4: that no one's going to read the second paragraph if 74 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:22,359 Speaker 4: they're not interested in the first paragraph, and within the 75 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:24,799 Speaker 4: first paragraph, no one's going to read the second sentence 76 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:28,280 Speaker 4: if they're not interested in the first sentence. He had 77 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 4: a lot of other concepts like that about just pr 78 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 4: one oh one that I've certainly carried with me. So 79 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 4: I wouldn't characterize that exactly as leadership, but it was 80 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 4: thought leadership in a way of just understanding how to 81 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:44,840 Speaker 4: communicate to the media and the discipline of what it 82 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:48,799 Speaker 4: was to really make an impact beyond just asking people 83 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:52,280 Speaker 4: for favors, but to come up with a good story. 84 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:54,840 Speaker 1: Then, in terms of the line of work that I'm 85 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: in now. 86 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 4: And for the last fifteen years, which is personal management, 87 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 4: I certainly look at Peter Grant, led Zeppelin's manager, as 88 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 4: a boss that I had that really. 89 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:09,039 Speaker 1: Left some lessons behind. 90 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 4: He was a complicated guy, tough guy, good to me, though, 91 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:14,279 Speaker 4: I have to say, and good for led Zeppelin in 92 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 4: terms of his belief in them, and his mantra was. 93 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 1: Can I curse on this podcast? Of course, you know, 94 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: his mantra was. 95 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 4: It doesn't matter what the fuck anyone else cares about. 96 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 4: It doesn't matter what the record company says, it doesn't 97 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:34,040 Speaker 4: matter what the promoter says, it doesn't matter what the 98 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 4: media says. All that matters is what the band says. 99 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:42,280 Speaker 4: And if the band has led Zeppelin. I think that 100 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 4: that was not just the spiritual artistic reality, that was 101 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 4: the business reality, you know, So understanding the centrality of 102 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 4: the artist and the context of the music business and 103 00:05:55,880 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 4: to align yourself with that, that was certainly some thing 104 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:03,159 Speaker 4: that has stuck with me. And then in terms of 105 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 4: the idea of how to be a boss, which is 106 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:09,479 Speaker 4: I think really a lot of the question, certainly working 107 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 4: for Doug Morris, you know he was he he hired 108 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 4: me in Atlantic and then promoted me to run Warner 109 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 4: Brothers you know, maybe president of Atlantic and chairman of 110 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 4: Warner Brothers Records, the two jobs that changed my life 111 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 4: in terms of my status in the business. And you know, 112 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 4: he he was someone who would walk around the offices 113 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:34,920 Speaker 4: of Atlantic asking everyone how their weekend was. He he liked, 114 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 4: he would fight to pay his people more, He engendered 115 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 4: tremendous loyalty, and then the trade office. He expected it 116 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 4: was loyalty in return, and you know, had a very 117 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:48,279 Speaker 4: relentless kind of a work ethic. But just kind of 118 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 4: watching him operate was another was another important droll model. 119 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 4: And then finally the fourth boss that I would say 120 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 4: I learned from was Alon Levy, who was the CEO 121 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 4: of PolyGram Worldwide, who hired me to run Mercury Records, 122 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 4: and and he just had a you know, a tremendous 123 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 4: grasp of detail of every aspect of the business, and 124 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 4: you know, again just threw us Moses. 125 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 1: I hopefully picked up some. 126 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 4: Of his his skills in that in that area. 127 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 1: But those are the bosses I had that left me 128 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 1: better than when I joined them. 129 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 4: So I don't know if that's exactly the answer to 130 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 4: the question, but that's the only one I can think of. 131 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 3: So I was thinking about your varied rules and your 132 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 3: interaction with your artists. Have you ever gotten good at 133 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 3: having a premonition when the phone rings, knowing it might 134 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 3: not be something good on the other end from the 135 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 3: call from an artist at that time? 136 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 1: I don't know, I. 137 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 4: Am I'm not quite sure how to answer that. 138 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 1: I mean, I think. 139 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 4: As a manager is the role where I think you 140 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 4: have the closest relationship with the artists because you're really 141 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 4: working for them in all aspects of their life. And 142 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 4: that's been what I've done the list a dozen years 143 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 4: or show, and I did it earlier in my career too, 144 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 4: for a period of time. And you know, I think 145 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 4: if you're close, you can develop a sense of how 146 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:40,319 Speaker 4: they're feeling and what might be a problem. But I 147 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 4: wouldn't say I've had a premonition, And the one or 148 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 4: two examples I can think of, I really wouldn't particularly 149 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 4: want to talk about because they involved, you know, sad things. 150 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 4: But I do think that when you're working with an 151 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 4: artist the way many managers do, in the way I do, 152 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 4: you really are tuned into their feelings in a way 153 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:07,200 Speaker 4: that you kin you kind of get a sense of 154 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 4: when they might. 155 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 1: Be worried about something or upset or something like that. 156 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 4: So there is a little bit of esp involved, but 157 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 4: I don't know there rises to the level of a premonition. 158 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 3: So when you think of the qualities of artists that 159 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 3: you've been around over your career, what are some of 160 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 3: the qualities that you feel make them successful? If you 161 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 3: could boil a few of them down. 162 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 1: Well. 163 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 4: Obviously, the first one is talent. You can't create that 164 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 4: with willpower. So somebody like Kurt Cobain or Steve Burrell 165 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 4: or you know, Bondie Raid or some of the people 166 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 4: I've worked with, I mean, they just they had tremendous 167 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 4: natural gifts. Not everyone who's talented is successful, but it's 168 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:57,960 Speaker 4: hard to be successful without you know, having talent. 169 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 1: Then certainly a desire to be successful. 170 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 4: I've never seen anyone become successful by accident. Some people 171 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 4: that came easier to and some harder too. But there 172 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 4: are so many obstacles in the entertainment business, whether it's 173 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:16,320 Speaker 4: getting exposure, whether it's getting paid for what you do, 174 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 4: whether it's trying to convince people to support what you do. 175 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 4: Not to mention the physical rigors of things like touring, 176 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 4: that the people that are successful all have a work ethic, 177 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:32,320 Speaker 4: even if they may be undisciplined in some aspects of 178 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 4: their personal life, they show up for shows and they 179 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 4: generally the people I've worked with have been pretty disciplined 180 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 4: about dealing with making motivating the people around them to 181 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 4: support them, whether it's people in. 182 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 1: The media or people at a record company or. 183 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 4: Crew or other musicians and stuff like that, and then 184 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:56,319 Speaker 4: finally perseverance because with very few exceptions, there's a lot 185 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 4: of setbacks and you've got to be willing to get 186 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 4: off the proverbial canvas and go out. 187 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 1: Of time and time again in order to make it, 188 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: you know. 189 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 4: So I think talent is the first threshold, but strong worth, ethic, 190 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 4: discipline and a sort of a drive to be successful, 191 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 4: you know, is needed. Also with Gordon, the late former 192 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 4: movie staring screenwriter of the thirties and forties, I saw 193 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 4: around a talk show once and she said to make 194 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 4: any show businesses not enough to have talent, you also 195 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 4: have to have a talent for having talent. 196 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:35,439 Speaker 1: So I kind of know what she means. 197 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 4: And you kind of sense that there are some people 198 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 4: that are talented that you just can see their self, 199 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:43,320 Speaker 4: sabotagers and other people that have a gleam in their 200 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:45,840 Speaker 4: eye and you just know nothing's going to stop them. 201 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 3: What's the current state of the music industry and where 202 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 3: do you think the future of the music industry is headed? 203 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 4: Well, first of all, the music industry is really not 204 00:11:56,920 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 4: the right way I would describe, but I think it's 205 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 4: industries because there's certainly there's the recording business, which is 206 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 4: usually what people mean when they say the music business. 207 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:10,559 Speaker 4: But there's this other giant business, the live entertainment business 208 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:13,679 Speaker 4: concerts that for a lot of artists that they make 209 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 4: most of the money. 210 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 1: I mean, someone like Bruce Springsteen makes a. 211 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 4: Lot more money touring right now than he does from records, 212 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 4: Rolling Stone the same thing, the biggest touring acts in 213 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 4: the world. 214 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 1: So I think the live. 215 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 4: Business is not that different from what it's been over 216 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 4: the last fifty years, except there is this audience of 217 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 4: people over forty who will pay more money for tickets 218 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 4: than ever was the case with previous generations because the 219 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 4: love affair of sort of people over forty and the artists. 220 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 4: People who came of age in the rock era have 221 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:57,080 Speaker 4: an emotional connection to more artists than people did of 222 00:12:57,120 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 4: the previous generation. Previous generation had a couple of people 223 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 4: Tony Bennett and Frank Snadra come to mind that we're 224 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 4: able to keep careers going because. 225 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:07,200 Speaker 1: People just wanted to see them. But there's like fifty rock. 226 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 4: Artists like that where people will pay hundreds of dollars 227 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:13,440 Speaker 4: to see them. So that's a change, But the basic 228 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 4: business model is the same. How much are the ticket prices, 229 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:18,439 Speaker 4: how many seats are there, how much did you sell 230 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 4: of that? What goes to rent, what goes to marketing, 231 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 4: and what goes to the person who took the financial 232 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:26,679 Speaker 4: risk as promoter, and what goes to the artists. And 233 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 4: for quite some time, certainly and led Zeppelin's manager Peter 234 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 4: Grant was the one who changed the paradigm for quite 235 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 4: a long time. You know, artists have gotten in the 236 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 4: ballpark of ninety percent of the profits from concerts. There's 237 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 4: other fees on top thanks to clawbacks some money and 238 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 4: ticket fees or servicing fees or what they make from 239 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:49,719 Speaker 4: merch but that business. 240 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 1: Model isty is pretty much the same. 241 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 4: Obviously, COVID had a dramatic effect on that business, and 242 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 4: there's still some after effects from it in terms of 243 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 4: I think there's certain people that aren't to go to 244 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:02,080 Speaker 4: concerts again that went. 245 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: Before, but it's pretty much pretty much the same. 246 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 4: It's probably more international than it's ever been. I mean, 247 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 4: I don't think there's going to be too many shows 248 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:13,440 Speaker 4: in Moscow in the next few years. And that was 249 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 4: actually a place you could go and do gigs for years. 250 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 4: And I don't know what Chinese is going to be 251 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 4: like for concerts, but generally speaking, you know, Latin America, 252 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 4: some parts of Africa, Europe in particular, Australia, Canada, the 253 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 4: United States, these are It's a. 254 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 1: Global business, the record business. The recording business, and when. 255 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 4: It includes the way people make money from songwriting, so 256 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 4: called music publishing, has changed completely with the advent of streaming, 257 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 4: and no one like I'm not the person who can 258 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 4: predict what's going to happen next. I'm not a technically 259 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 4: sophisticated I just try to understand on behalf of the 260 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 4: people I represent what the playing field is. You know, 261 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 4: today and today streaming is the main way people are 262 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 4: absorbing music. You know, it's biased in favor of people 263 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 4: with the way the money is divided up as biased 264 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 4: in favor of people with younger audiences. Chris, a twelve 265 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 4: year old might want to listen to the same song 266 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 4: thirty times a day, and people my age once a 267 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 4: day is probably enough. But we're still paying our ten 268 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 4: dollars a month or whatever it is. So you know, 269 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 4: there's the algorithm has some built in biases that we 270 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 4: just have to live with. It's a good playing field 271 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 4: if you have a catalog because the multiples, as they say, 272 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 4: what people will pay to buy catalogs of songs or recordings. 273 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 4: Is it a high point. But if you're just on 274 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 4: your way up, you know, or in the middle middle, 275 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 4: it's not as good as it was twenty years ago. 276 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 4: But business keeps changing, technology keeps changing. One thing I 277 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 4: think is not changed is the emotional connection between fans 278 00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 4: and the music and the musical arts that they like 279 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 4: that's monetized changes, the business model changes, how to market 280 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 4: it changes, but the essential relationship between a fan and music, 281 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 4: I think is exactly the same. And the job of 282 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 4: those of us in the business is to figure out 283 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 4: how to how to get paid for that and how 284 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 4: to get artists. 285 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 1: Paid for that, you know. 286 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 4: But the soul of the business is the same, but 287 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 4: the mechanics of the recording part of it is just 288 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 4: completely different than it was, and in a million different ways. 289 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 3: You know, Do you have a position on what AI 290 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 3: is going to do to the business? 291 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 4: No? 292 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 1: I you know, I think I don't know what AI 293 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 1: is going to do. 294 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 4: It's obviously the big subject of conversation in the last 295 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 4: few months since Chatchibt debuted, and there's all sorts of 296 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 4: anxiety about it will it marginalize certain. 297 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 1: People and eliminate jobs. 298 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 4: And I would imagine it's you know, there's certain kinds 299 00:16:55,640 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 4: of music that I think probably it can computer could 300 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 4: create in a competitive way. Uh, And then there's a 301 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:08,720 Speaker 4: certain kind that I think it couldn't, you know. And 302 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:11,920 Speaker 4: I think again, the live business is going to be 303 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:15,399 Speaker 4: less affected by it because the people are paying for 304 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:20,200 Speaker 4: that experience, whether it's Taylor Swift or Bruce Springsteen or Beyonce. 305 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 4: It's about being in the room with that particular human 306 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 4: being and with their fans, and that is not affected 307 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 4: by it in terms of what people are going to 308 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:37,200 Speaker 4: dance to or sing along to. You know, I would 309 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 4: imagine that it'll you know, AI might create, might create 310 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:41,879 Speaker 4: some catchy hooks. 311 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:42,199 Speaker 3: You know. 312 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 4: It's another tool for artists also the same way the 313 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:49,359 Speaker 4: synthesizer became a tool for artists, pro tools became a 314 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 4: tool for artists. So I think there'll be artists that 315 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 4: use it as a tool the way the great artists 316 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:57,919 Speaker 4: throughout history have done. There'll be certain people that maybe 317 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 4: have been doing a certain kind of work that they 318 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 4: won't be able to do anymore, like what happens with technology. 319 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:10,400 Speaker 4: But you know, the kind of artists I work with, 320 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,159 Speaker 4: which are very personal artists who are kind of taking 321 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 4: their self expression, people like Steve Earle or Mike Scott 322 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 4: of the Water Boys, or you know, I think of 323 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:23,120 Speaker 4: other artists that I don't work with, but who I admire, 324 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 4: you know, in that category. You know, I think it's 325 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 4: just another tool for them to use, But the relationship 326 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 4: between them and their fans is not going to be 327 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:34,120 Speaker 4: adversely affected by it. But it's going to change things 328 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 4: in ways that smarter people than me will have to articulate. 329 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 1: You know, I'm. 330 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:44,639 Speaker 4: An old fart, but I'm not scared of it. I'm 331 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:47,919 Speaker 4: curious about it. There's also, by the way, not just 332 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 4: artificial intelligence, there's also artificial stupidity. You know, these algorithms 333 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 4: are still only as good as the human beings that 334 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 4: create them, and they make mistakes. I mean, I went 335 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 4: on check GBT just asked for them to describe my 336 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 4: own career too, curious what it would say, and it 337 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:08,919 Speaker 4: made a significant mistake. Now I'm sure they'll get the 338 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 4: bugs out of it, but you know, look, it's a 339 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 4: new tool, just like computers were and smartphones were, and 340 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 4: it's going to make some people feel very old, and 341 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 4: other people are going to use it as a tool 342 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 4: and do things they couldn't do before. Same thing with 343 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 4: the world of a virtual reality. You know that's going 344 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 4: to be a tool for some artists. You know, it's 345 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 4: not going to replace the desire to go see sports 346 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 4: or a concert live. 347 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 1: But you know, it took stereo quite a while before 348 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:42,119 Speaker 1: people like the Beatles and. 349 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:44,879 Speaker 4: Knew how to use it as an artistic tool. But 350 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:48,479 Speaker 4: usually as these new tools emerged, creative geniuses figure out 351 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 4: how to make art out of it. 352 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:51,160 Speaker 1: And I'm sure that'll be this case with. 353 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 4: Some of the various tributory AI is kind of a 354 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:57,919 Speaker 4: catchual for a lot of different computer generated things. 355 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:03,200 Speaker 3: So you mentioned that performance aspect of things. You've been 356 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 3: to so many live performances in your life. Are there 357 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 3: any in particular that really stick out to you that 358 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:16,359 Speaker 3: are just embedded so deeply in your brain that you'll 359 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 3: never forget it. 360 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 4: Well, when you're in the business, you have two categories. 361 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,679 Speaker 1: There's people I've worked with and then it's just shown 362 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 1: I've shows I've seen. 363 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 4: So you know, I'm very enamored to the people I 364 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:37,439 Speaker 4: work with, So let's just take them off of that category. 365 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:41,240 Speaker 4: Because it's kind of it's kind of distorted by my 366 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 4: own relationship with them and my self interest. 367 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:48,639 Speaker 1: Certainly, I mean Springsteen, I've never seen him do a 368 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:49,120 Speaker 1: bit show. 369 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 4: He's certainly one of the greatest, if not the greatest, 370 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 4: rock performer. When I first saw bat Meddler, I thought 371 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 4: it was one of the most amazing performers I've ever seen. 372 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,360 Speaker 4: Still stands out of my mind when I go back 373 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:05,199 Speaker 4: earlier in my life, when I was just starting as 374 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 4: a so called rock crig. I mean, the first time 375 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:09,879 Speaker 4: I saw loud nol Aim right the third it just 376 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:13,720 Speaker 4: blew my mind that really I didn't know that somebody, 377 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 4: it was so many years after dealing it had created 378 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 4: a scene in the village and then left it that 379 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:23,440 Speaker 4: somebody could still do that same. But the first time 380 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 4: I saw Christophfersoner John Prine, those were just people I 381 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:28,120 Speaker 4: was lucky enough to see in my early twenties when 382 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 4: they were still playing clubs. 383 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: So you know, if. 384 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:37,679 Speaker 4: You'd ask me tomorrow, I'd probably come up with a 385 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 4: different list. But that first time I saw bb King, 386 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:42,440 Speaker 4: I was just the kid and prob I was able 387 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 4: to get a ticket and. 388 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:46,119 Speaker 1: I saw him at the village Gate. It was just 389 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 1: that I could be in the room with BB King 390 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 1: while he was playing a guitar. 391 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 4: But I don't know that it was not just about him, 392 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 4: although he was very consistently great. 393 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 1: It was about who I was. 394 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:57,960 Speaker 4: At that moment, and it was so new to me 395 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 4: to be able to see live music, you know. But 396 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 4: on any given night, I thought Nirvana was very consistent 397 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 4: as a live band. Steve World's extraordinarily consistent. The water 398 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,399 Speaker 4: Boys are extraordinary. Martha Wainwright, who I've worked with for years, 399 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 4: amazing live performer. Again, I am biased, but of the 400 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 4: people I haven't worked with, it's the people I mentioned, 401 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:19,359 Speaker 4: I guess are what It's stuck in my head when 402 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 4: you asked me the question. 403 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:23,360 Speaker 1: So you mentioned phil Oaks earlier. 404 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think of you know, activism obviously, and 405 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:32,200 Speaker 3: I think of today's times with artists and activism. Are 406 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:35,960 Speaker 3: you disappointed there's not enough activism today with musicians? 407 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 1: No? No, I feel the opposite. 408 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:40,480 Speaker 4: I mean, I actually wrote a book about the twenty 409 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 4: twenty election called Bloody Crossroads twenty twenty Art, Entertainment and 410 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 4: Resistance to Trump, where I really. 411 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:48,200 Speaker 1: Spent a lot of time and a lot of it 412 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:49,120 Speaker 1: was written during. 413 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,919 Speaker 4: Lockdown, during the COVID period, where it's just documenting all 414 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 4: the different artists that were commenting on politics at that time, 415 00:22:56,080 --> 00:23:00,159 Speaker 4: and it was much more than any other time. In 416 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 4: my observation, I mean, to have Taylor Swift and Cardi 417 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 4: b the biggest pop acts in the world in America anyway, 418 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 4: weighing in so clearly and explicitly about an election. I 419 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:15,880 Speaker 4: never saw Mariah Carrie or Madonna doing that. I never 420 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 4: saw the Rolling Stones doing that. I never saw the 421 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:21,399 Speaker 4: Beatles doing it. I saw John Lennon as an individual 422 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:27,159 Speaker 4: was politically outspoken in his day. And I think the 423 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 4: range of people who weighed in during that period, from 424 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,480 Speaker 4: Lucinda Williams, Ross and Cash, I mean, it's an incredibly 425 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:37,399 Speaker 4: long list. So I think that the younger generation of 426 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 4: artists that people had kind of had to deal with 427 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:44,639 Speaker 4: the Trump or in particular, are more politically engaged. 428 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 1: Than the people were in the sixties. 429 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:50,119 Speaker 4: And my generation likes to romanticized political activism of the 430 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:52,640 Speaker 4: sixties and lumping in with rock and roll and Woodstock 431 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 4: Festival said love and peace, peace piece piece, And there 432 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:57,680 Speaker 4: was a Vietnam War going on, but there was only 433 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,480 Speaker 4: a handful of artists that were really bplicitly engaged in 434 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:05,879 Speaker 4: the anti war protest. The Jefferson Airplane were the Crosby Stills, 435 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 4: Nashty at Ohio, obviously, Country Joe and. 436 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:10,919 Speaker 1: The Fish Dylan. 437 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:13,399 Speaker 4: The early part of Dylan's career was political, and then 438 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:17,160 Speaker 4: he stopped writing that many political songs. He'd occasionally returned 439 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 4: to the subject. I loved Phillops. It was my first 440 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 4: favorite artist. He wasn't a mass appeal artist, but he 441 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 4: was a remarkable. 442 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 1: You know. 443 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,879 Speaker 4: But I don't you know, the Jimmy Hendrix never did 444 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 4: a political song. Janis Joplin never did a political song. 445 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 4: The Grateful Dead, you know, pretty apolitical. 446 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:39,719 Speaker 1: Later they show up for an environmental event or something. 447 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:41,199 Speaker 1: You know. 448 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:43,439 Speaker 4: A lot of the big artists of the sixties were 449 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 4: not particularly political. 450 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 1: Oh. 451 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:47,400 Speaker 4: I just have to flash back, though, when I'm talking 452 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:51,480 Speaker 4: about great shows that I've ever seen. Leonard Cohen during 453 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:53,920 Speaker 4: the last decade of his life, every time I saw 454 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 4: him it was like going to church. I mean, those 455 00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:59,399 Speaker 4: live shows during that period of his life to me 456 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 4: definitely at the top of the list of shows for 457 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:05,919 Speaker 4: me personally that really moved me deeply. 458 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,120 Speaker 3: Do you have some favorite venues that you've seen shows 459 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 3: or had artists at, or is it too big of 460 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 3: a list. 461 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,480 Speaker 4: Well, I mean, I'm a great fan of the City Winery. 462 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 4: I think what Michael Dorf has done is incredible. He's 463 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 4: created a space for audience with a sound and the 464 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 4: way things are presented there. 465 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:32,400 Speaker 1: It's it's to be way. 466 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:35,880 Speaker 4: Better as an experience as a fan than the previous 467 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:40,639 Speaker 4: generations of clubs ever had. I mean, I was, you know, 468 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 4: to me, clubs are most of the legendary clubs are 469 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 4: legendary not because of the real estate or the physical 470 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 4: space or the way that people were, but because of. 471 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 1: Who played there. 472 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 4: Like CBGB's very famous because the Ramones and Patty Smith 473 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,359 Speaker 4: and television talking heads and Blonde they all played there 474 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 4: at the moment when they didn't have other places to play. 475 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:06,679 Speaker 4: And Hilly Crystal certainly had an incredibly good taste to 476 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 4: give those artists a platform. 477 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:09,480 Speaker 1: But it was not a. 478 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 4: Pleasant place physically to be bottom line legendary shows here. 479 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 1: I loved going to the bottom Line. 480 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 4: I was always treated incredibly well there by Alan Pepper 481 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,960 Speaker 4: who ran it, you know. But I like the food 482 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,399 Speaker 4: at the City Winery a lot better, you know, I 483 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 4: mean Fillmore East was a big deal to me in 484 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 4: my beginning of my career. Was incredible privilege to be 485 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 4: able to go there, to get tickets there. 486 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:38,679 Speaker 1: I thought that had a special quality to it. 487 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 4: But that again had a lot to do with the culture, 488 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 4: the musical culture of the times. 489 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 1: But Bill Graham had a vision about what a rock. 490 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,360 Speaker 4: Show should be that was distinctive from other promoters, and 491 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:50,440 Speaker 4: it was you could feel it at the film More East. 492 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,480 Speaker 1: And at the Fillmore West. I just lived in New York, so. 493 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,360 Speaker 4: But you know, I think the artists are a lot 494 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,479 Speaker 4: more important than where they played, right. 495 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,680 Speaker 3: I love the city Wineries, especially how it's in all 496 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:06,400 Speaker 3: oh It's in. 497 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:07,119 Speaker 1: So many cities. 498 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 4: The one I've been, I haven't been to all of them, 499 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 4: but I've been the one in Chicago and Nashville, both 500 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:15,119 Speaker 4: fantastic rooms, and I hear nothing but good things. I 501 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 4: haven't been to all of them yet, but I think 502 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 4: that's really created a new category for artists and audiences 503 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 4: that I'm very much appreciate right now. 504 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 3: You know, so when you think of all of your 505 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 3: roles through your career, it's varied in terms of what 506 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 3: you've done. Yeah, yeah, has each one of those roles 507 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,159 Speaker 3: continue to serve you today in terms of how you 508 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:46,920 Speaker 3: lead and work and manage. 509 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 4: I think, you know, the fact that I worked at 510 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:57,959 Speaker 4: and ran record companies for six years helps me understand 511 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 4: what people at record companies are going through at any 512 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 4: given moment in time. 513 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:03,879 Speaker 1: I think that's a bit of a help. 514 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 4: I think the fact that I was a publicist certainly 515 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 4: allows me to communicate, I think, on a pretty high 516 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 4: level with publicists and to help strategize in that area. So, 517 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 4: you know, I think that everybody who was a manager 518 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:22,720 Speaker 4: did something else first, and they all bring whatever they 519 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:26,639 Speaker 4: did to the job. So those are my backgrounds. I 520 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 4: think they help inform what I do now. 521 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:33,639 Speaker 3: Yeah, so Grunge, really you were at the. 522 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:36,680 Speaker 1: Beginning of the birth of. 523 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 3: You couldn't have realized how significant it was at the 524 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 3: moment in time you were in. 525 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 1: Could you. 526 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 4: Well, I think you're talking about really Nirvana. 527 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 1: That's my clim to fame. 528 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 4: I've always known that if there's ever an obituary of me, 529 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 4: it's likely to say ex Nirvana manager, and if it 530 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 4: says anything about my work, because it was such a 531 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 4: privilege to work with that band at that time, and 532 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 4: you know, Kurt Cobain did not was not crazy about. 533 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 1: The word grunge. 534 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 2: You know. 535 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 4: It was kind of a marketing word that served the 536 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 4: purpose of some of the you know, record companies in Seattle, 537 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 4: some pop in particular, and the media liked it, and 538 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 4: I guess it was supposed to be some hybrid between 539 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 4: heavy metal and punk. 540 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 2: You know. 541 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 4: He was not crazy about thinking that people were putting 542 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 4: him in a category. He saw himself as an individual 543 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 4: artist who drew on a lot of different influences but 544 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 4: invented something of his own, which I think history has 545 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 4: proven to be true. 546 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 1: But I certainly didn't know Nirvana was going to be 547 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:46,200 Speaker 1: as big as. 548 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 4: They were when I first met them and decided to 549 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 4: manage them. It happened very quickly, though I also if 550 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 4: I could plug it. I did write a book about 551 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 4: working with Kurt Colt, serving the Servant, and kind of 552 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 4: documents that whole thing from because I worked with them 553 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 4: from you know, when they before they were they had 554 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 4: done the one indie record and through never Mind and that, 555 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 4: you know. 556 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 1: Until until Kurt died. It happened very very fast, because. 557 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 4: The song smells like Steve teen Spirit happened very fast. 558 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 4: I mean there's no mystery about what the inflection point 559 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,120 Speaker 4: was that song in the video that accompanied it, you 560 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 4: know one you know, in in August of in July 561 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,760 Speaker 4: of nineteen ninety one, no one knew about it except 562 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 4: a few of us who worked with the band, And 563 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 4: by the end of the year it was the number 564 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 4: one record, not just in America but all over the 565 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 4: world and. 566 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 1: So so and and it was not just a hit song. 567 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:41,960 Speaker 1: It was a song that was a vehicle for a whole. 568 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 4: Punk subculture that had been a niche audience, and the 569 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 4: and the and the graphics, language and attitudes of that 570 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 4: then became, you know, mainstream, and you know, right behind 571 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:56,480 Speaker 4: it came pro jam and soundgarden. 572 00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 1: You know. 573 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 4: Never mind, that was the one that broke the door 574 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 4: open and set a climate where, you know, the year earlier, 575 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 4: radio commercial rock radio was not interested in any anything 576 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 4: with the word punk in it. And a year later, 577 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 4: you know, it was at the center of the programming 578 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,160 Speaker 4: of some of the big stations like K Rock and 579 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:24,000 Speaker 4: others around the country. So that was an inflection point 580 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 4: that happened very very fast. So certainly, when I first 581 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 4: was working with Nirvana, I had no idea it was 582 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,240 Speaker 4: going to be a pop global phenomenon. 583 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:34,400 Speaker 1: I knew they were great. 584 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 4: I knew Kurt's voice and his songwriting sent him apart 585 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:42,360 Speaker 4: from the other artists that were popular in the punk subculture, 586 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 4: and I felt it was going to be very successful 587 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 4: within that genre. But I didn't know it was going 588 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 4: to so quickly transcend the genre. I don't think any 589 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 4: of us did. But we knew he was something special. 590 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:56,240 Speaker 4: All he had to do was see him on stage 591 00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 4: once and you knew this was a special person. And 592 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 4: he wrote books, he wrote songs. Most punk artists didn't 593 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 4: write those kind of songs that had choruses that you 594 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 4: could humme along to, but still had that rebelliousness, that energy, 595 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 4: and that raw emotionalism of punk. He created a. 596 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 1: You know again, he had his influences. 597 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:18,920 Speaker 4: He was influenced by the Pixies and by a number 598 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 4: of other artists, but he took it. 599 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 1: To a whole other level. 600 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 3: So you mentioned the breakout of obviously Nirvana and the 601 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:30,240 Speaker 3: radio aspect of that. 602 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 1: How do you feel about radio today. 603 00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:42,120 Speaker 4: Well, it's got a lot of competition it didn't used 604 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:46,400 Speaker 4: to have. You can listen to Apple Music or Spotify 605 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 4: in the car. 606 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:51,240 Speaker 1: It's built into it. You know, my new plug in 607 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 1: hybrid Apple's just built into it. You know. 608 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 4: So it's got the competition of streaming, which I think 609 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:03,640 Speaker 4: is a huge problem if you're trying to get people 610 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:07,480 Speaker 4: to listen to music. You know, there's no commercials. 611 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 1: Let's throt with that and you can hear whatever you want. 612 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 4: It's also look, I'm gonna admit, I hope this doesn't 613 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 4: violate the vibe. 614 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:18,600 Speaker 1: Of what you do. But I'm also a fan of 615 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 1: what Sirius does. 616 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 4: I think they provide programming that's more customized than what 617 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 4: a commercial radio station can do because of the nature 618 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 4: of the technology and the nature of the people who 619 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 4: subscribe to it. So I think it's incredibly challenging for 620 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 4: commercial radio stations to. 621 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 1: Deal with that. 622 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 4: I don't envy the people who have to program and 623 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,240 Speaker 4: figure out, you know, how to get the ratings that 624 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 4: they need to get to you know, keep the parent 625 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 4: company happy. 626 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,920 Speaker 1: And it's a very very challenging thing for music. 627 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 4: Obviously, radio still is unique when it comes to news 628 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 4: and sports, and I think talk radio for people that 629 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 4: are in the car, you know, there's a certain significant 630 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 4: portion of commuter, especially older ones who just esthetically that's 631 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 4: what they want to listen to. But I think for 632 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 4: music radio, it's really really challenging and it takes I'm 633 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:15,359 Speaker 4: glad I'm not the one who has to figure out 634 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:19,799 Speaker 4: how to make a music radio station work. But you know, 635 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 4: people in America and all around the world spend a 636 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,920 Speaker 4: lot of their time in cars, and there is a 637 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:30,719 Speaker 4: different experience with the radio. There's the opportunity to be surprised, 638 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:33,440 Speaker 4: you know, by what the next song is going to be. 639 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 1: So as much fun as it is to pick your own. 640 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 4: Songs, there's certain mastributory equality to that, as opposed to 641 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:43,680 Speaker 4: just trusting somebody else to program it and to introduce 642 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 4: the songs. And I still like listening to certain stations 643 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:53,800 Speaker 4: because I want to hear the curation of somebody who's listened. 644 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:55,239 Speaker 1: To a lot more stuff than I have, you know, 645 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:56,000 Speaker 1: And I think. 646 00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:00,480 Speaker 4: There are certain geniuses in programming that were able to 647 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:02,600 Speaker 4: do that in the way that really gets. 648 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:04,440 Speaker 1: A big enough audience for them to keep doing it. 649 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 1: But it's incredibly challenging compared to the way it was 650 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:09,400 Speaker 1: before the digital age. 651 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:13,680 Speaker 3: Would air America that we're still around, you were CEO 652 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:17,919 Speaker 3: of it, obviously, would it be successful now? 653 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:21,120 Speaker 4: In your opinion, Well, Air America had a lot of 654 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:23,880 Speaker 4: problems that I don't want to go into, but it 655 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 4: was under chronically underfunded from the beginning. 656 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:29,160 Speaker 1: But I think if Al. 657 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:35,000 Speaker 4: Franken, who is the flagship person at Air America, wanted 658 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:37,360 Speaker 4: to do a radio show, I think he could have 659 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:40,160 Speaker 4: a successful radio show right now, There's no question in 660 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 4: my mind. 661 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 1: He got good ratings. 662 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,399 Speaker 4: He wasn't getting as big ratings as Rush Limboy did, 663 00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:46,080 Speaker 4: but he came closer than you would think. 664 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:47,680 Speaker 1: He had a real gift for it. 665 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,480 Speaker 4: If Rachel Maddow, who was on Air America, wanted to 666 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:53,960 Speaker 4: do a radio show, now, I think she'd find an audience. 667 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,279 Speaker 4: But she seems to be doing quite well on television. 668 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:01,400 Speaker 4: So those are certainly two too particular people that I 669 00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:03,759 Speaker 4: think would do just fine if they wanted to do 670 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:08,720 Speaker 4: a radio show. Now it's you know, there's something again 671 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:11,880 Speaker 4: called talent that transcends ideology. There are people that are 672 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:15,320 Speaker 4: just talented are communicating as broadcasters, and. 673 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:18,640 Speaker 1: You know, I think we had a couple of them. 674 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:20,960 Speaker 4: We didn't have an infrastructure that had any kind of 675 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:23,239 Speaker 4: a business plan that could give it a chance to 676 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:27,920 Speaker 4: blossom as a network, but it produced some notable people, 677 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 4: the two I mentioned, and of course Mark Maron, who 678 00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:36,680 Speaker 4: I you know, had had to the unpleasant task of 679 00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:38,160 Speaker 4: having to cancel his show. 680 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 1: Because it was losing money. 681 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:41,759 Speaker 4: Not his fault, it was just the people that were 682 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:44,960 Speaker 4: supposed to fund the place didn't come up with the money. 683 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,560 Speaker 4: And I don't think he likes me very much as 684 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,160 Speaker 4: a result of the role I was required to play then. 685 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:51,000 Speaker 1: But what a. 686 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,400 Speaker 4: Success he's had as a podcaster. I mean, that's one 687 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:57,360 Speaker 4: of the most successful podcasts. No disrespect to this podcast, 688 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,840 Speaker 4: but I would I would imagine you'd be happy to 689 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 4: get his numbers, and and you know, so I think that, 690 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:09,160 Speaker 4: you know, we have a mutual friend who you mentioned 691 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,520 Speaker 4: before we started this, Johnsonton, who picked all of those people, 692 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:16,160 Speaker 4: and you know, I think he's, you know, deserves a 693 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:20,000 Speaker 4: lot of credit for his judgment as as a programmer 694 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:23,640 Speaker 4: in giving those people a platform, none of whom had 695 00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:26,680 Speaker 4: done radio before, and all of whom are kind of 696 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:28,400 Speaker 4: household names today. 697 00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:30,319 Speaker 1: So that was a failed. 698 00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:32,160 Speaker 4: Business for reasons that aren't worth going into in a 699 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:36,400 Speaker 4: conversation like this. Happy to have a different conversation about that, 700 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:39,400 Speaker 4: but it did, it did. 701 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:42,480 Speaker 1: It did unearth some very very significant talent. 702 00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:49,640 Speaker 3: So in closing, you've done so much, what's on your roadmap, 703 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:55,160 Speaker 3: either for this company or personally that you haven't done well. 704 00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:57,440 Speaker 4: I'm a one day at a time guy, especially as 705 00:37:57,440 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 4: I get older. 706 00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:01,160 Speaker 1: I'm just trying to do a good job every day. 707 00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:02,000 Speaker 1: You know. 708 00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:04,480 Speaker 4: I really love the people I work with. I've had 709 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,200 Speaker 4: a parallel career as a writer. I've published five books 710 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:09,640 Speaker 4: and I'm starting to work on another one, but it's 711 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:11,000 Speaker 4: too early to talk about it. 712 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:12,600 Speaker 1: I just want to do. 713 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:17,560 Speaker 4: You know, somebody Doug Marris so I mentioned earlier, who 714 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:19,840 Speaker 4: hired me to be president of Atlantic and who was probably 715 00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:23,239 Speaker 4: the pre eminent record executive of the last thirty or 716 00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:28,600 Speaker 4: forty years. He ran Universal, Warners and Sony. You know, 717 00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:31,400 Speaker 4: he ran all the majors. No one's ever done that. 718 00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:35,120 Speaker 4: You know, He's like the goat in terms of what 719 00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:37,360 Speaker 4: he accomplished. At one point he had said to me, 720 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:38,919 Speaker 4: because he was older than me, you know, he said, 721 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:40,800 Speaker 4: you know, first part of your career you want to 722 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:43,200 Speaker 4: get somewhere, and the second party you just want to 723 00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:47,400 Speaker 4: stay there, you know. And I didn't understand what he 724 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:49,239 Speaker 4: meant then because I was trying to get somewhere, but 725 00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:50,239 Speaker 4: I sure understand that. 726 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:50,520 Speaker 3: Now. 727 00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:54,000 Speaker 4: My goal is to just be able to stay involved 728 00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:58,839 Speaker 4: with artists, to be part of this business. And each 729 00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:02,279 Speaker 4: project has itself and gals attached to it, and that 730 00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:03,480 Speaker 4: was become by gals. 731 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:07,160 Speaker 3: I'm so grateful that you took the time to be 732 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:08,759 Speaker 3: on the podcast, so. 733 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:11,200 Speaker 1: Flatter that you wanted me man, Thank you, thank you 734 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:11,799 Speaker 1: so much. 735 00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:18,319 Speaker 2: Taking a Walk with Buzznight is available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, 736 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:21,000 Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts.