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Speaker 1: You're listening to Math and Magic, a production. I heart radio.

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Speaker 1: So we came up with this logo and they ran

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Speaker 1: a trade campaign to full pages and they took a

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Speaker 1: shot of me. It looked like I had shaved the

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Speaker 1: logo into my head. So are we completely bald except

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Speaker 1: for the exclamation point and the E and the captions that?

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Speaker 1: Trust me, it'll catch on to this day, people mentioned

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Speaker 1: that to me, it went viral. It went viralent, viral,

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Speaker 1: before the days of things going viral. It was great fun,

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Speaker 1: but I didn't actually shave my head. Welcome to Math

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Speaker 1: and Magic, Stories from the Frontiers and Marketing. I'm Bob Pittman,

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Speaker 1: and on this episode we have someone who made his

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Speaker 1: mark as a creative, but certainly as an expert on

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Speaker 1: the math side as well. You're Almone, the CEO of MPR.

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Speaker 1: He's an old old friend. Started out as a deal

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Speaker 1: personality at age fifteen, by the way, with the unaired

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Speaker 1: name of Lee Masters. He went on to become a

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Speaker 1: successful air talent programmer, running radio stations and finally even

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Speaker 1: owning radio stations. He was the operating head of v

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Speaker 1: H one and MTV and It's Heyday. He started e

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Speaker 1: Entertainment television television network. He was at CEO. He had

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Speaker 1: a great success there and they went on to be

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Speaker 1: the head of Liberty Investment, where he made smart bets

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Speaker 1: on companies like Price Line and t VO. He became

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Speaker 1: an investor for himself after that. Served on the boards

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Speaker 1: of E W, scripts, C NET, XM Radio. He was

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Speaker 1: on the board of the Museum of Contemporary Art in

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Speaker 1: l A. He was the chair of the Southern California

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Speaker 1: a c l U for fifteen years. He loves and

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Speaker 1: collects art. He has a wonderful family. He's a nice guy.

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Speaker 1: He's known for his huge heart and sharp mind. Welcome you, Almon,

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Speaker 1: Thank you, Bob. So we're gonna start before we really

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Speaker 1: get into the media questions. We want to get you

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Speaker 1: in sixties, so I don't think too long to say.

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Speaker 1: The first thing that comes to your mind will jump

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Speaker 1: into it. Sure, do you prefer Twitter or Instagram? Instagram?

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Speaker 1: El Paso or New York City? Oh that's a tough one.

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Speaker 1: I'd have to say New York. But I did have

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Speaker 1: a lot of fun in El Paso. Grateful Debt or

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Speaker 1: Steve Miller band, Dead, MTV or E Entertainment. Oh Man

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Speaker 1: I'd have to say, you know, MTV was so much fun.

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Speaker 1: I would have to go with the MTV Okay, Sunrise

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Speaker 1: or Sunsets, m Sunset Yo. MTV raps are the Weekend

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Speaker 1: Rock Yo, MTV wraps, Boats or planes, Planes, Lee Masters

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Speaker 1: are all mom, I'm not fond of either of them. Well,

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Speaker 1: you have to pick one. I have to pick one.

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Speaker 1: I'd have to pick you are it's about to get harder.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, secret talent. I don't know that I

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Speaker 1: have any secret talent. Oh, cross road puzzles. Favorite city,

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Speaker 1: Los Angeles. Smartest person you know, Bob Pittman. Oh yeah, right,

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Speaker 1: childhood hero, childhood hero, Bob Pittman. Oh yeah, Okay, we

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Speaker 1: got excluding Bob Pittman. Favorite superhero, John Malone. Favorite piece

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Speaker 1: of art in your collection James Terrell. Favorite TV show

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Speaker 1: as a kid and now, Oh, favorite TV show as

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Speaker 1: a kid. I loved American Bandstand. That was really formative

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Speaker 1: for me. Today. Game of Thrones, historical Little Winston Churchill,

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Speaker 1: proudest career achievement here working at Npure favorite podcast. Oh

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Speaker 1: I can't answer that. I'd be a dead man. Okay,

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Speaker 1: we'll give you a pass on that one quote to

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Speaker 1: live by m back to Winston Churchill. Never give up,

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Speaker 1: Never give up, Never give up. Who would play you

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Speaker 1: in a movie? Brian Cranston? Do you just look like

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Speaker 1: Brian Cranston? What would be the title of your memoir? WHOA?

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Speaker 1: How did I get here? Okay, we're gonna end with

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Speaker 1: this one, because it really goes all through your history. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: us Live concert Pink Floyd. What year? Probably seventy three,

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Speaker 1: the year I met you, as a matter of fact,

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Speaker 1: So let's jump into it. Sure, let's start with your childhood.

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Speaker 1: You grew up in Bucks County, Pennsylvania. Tell me a

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Speaker 1: little bit about your mom and dad and how you

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Speaker 1: grew up. My father taught English literature and then he

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Speaker 1: edited a small newspaper new Hope, Pennsylvania, a real emphasis

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Speaker 1: on reading and literature. Didn't have a television in the

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Speaker 1: house or radio. As a matter of fact, I contend

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Speaker 1: that my entire career has been an active rebellion against

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Speaker 1: the way I was raised. My mother was an artist,

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Speaker 1: a graphic designer, so there was a real focus on

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Speaker 1: creativity in our house. And where did you find out

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Speaker 1: what was going on the radio or TV? If he

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Speaker 1: didn't have one in the house at friends. I wasn't

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Speaker 1: prohibited from watching or listening. I just wasn't allowed to

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Speaker 1: have one in the house, so it was very exotic

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Speaker 1: for me. So radio, how did you get started? I

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Speaker 1: was probably like eleven or twelve is when I really

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Speaker 1: glombed on the radio and loved it and loved listening

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Speaker 1: to it. That's when I said I would be great

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Speaker 1: playing records would be awesome. So I had a number

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Speaker 1: of jobs after school, save money, got my engineer's license

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Speaker 1: when I was fifteen because the little radio station in

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Speaker 1: my hometown you had to have a first class radio license.

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Speaker 1: So I saved up all my money and at the

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Speaker 1: fifteen went to Radio Engineering Institute and Sarasota, Florida for

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Speaker 1: a five week cram course so you can memorize the

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Speaker 1: answers to the FCC test. And I got my license

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Speaker 1: at fifteen and came back. They didn't want to hire

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Speaker 1: me at all, but they needed somebody to run the

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Speaker 1: religious tapes on Sunday and they didn't have anyone with

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Speaker 1: the first class radio license, so they were kind of

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Speaker 1: four stoff hire me, so an act of desperation on

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Speaker 1: their part, and that's how we started. Do you still

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Speaker 1: have the first class radio license. It's framed somewhere. I

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Speaker 1: don't think the FCC even uses those anymore, but I

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Speaker 1: have it somewhere. Those were the old days when the

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Speaker 1: disc jockeys were also the engineers, right combo job from

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Speaker 1: that period. You know, you've been a creative guy your

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Speaker 1: whole career. You've invented a lot of things and built

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Speaker 1: a lot of things. What did you learn that was

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Speaker 1: helpful to you as a creative type or a marketer.

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Speaker 1: Most of that learning and knowledge came over long periods

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Speaker 1: of time and mostly trial and error. I was a

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Speaker 1: fan and consumed a lot of media because I wasn't

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Speaker 1: allowed to as a kid. Then when I got into

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Speaker 1: the business, I think it was just a function of

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Speaker 1: experimenting and learning from others. I won't use the word stealing,

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Speaker 1: We'll use the art term appropriating things that I saw

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Speaker 1: other people doing that seemed to work. So you would

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Speaker 1: characterize your early career as being I'm gonna borrow other

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Speaker 1: people's Yeah, talk a little bit about Lee Masters. When

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Speaker 1: did that come about? When? What? When I decided I

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Speaker 1: want to be a disc jockey and I thought at

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Speaker 1: that time the name yr Moan as an air name

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Speaker 1: to not easy to remember, it's not easy to spell,

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Speaker 1: it's not easy to say, and of course this is

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Speaker 1: pre NPR. Now it's the perfect NPR name, but at

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Speaker 1: the time not what you would expect for this jockey.

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Speaker 1: So in my fifteen year old brain, I wanted to

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Speaker 1: come up with something that sounded big, and Lee Masters

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Speaker 1: is what I created. Lee Masters for a long time,

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Speaker 1: a long thirty five years. Somewhere in the back of

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Speaker 1: my brain, you're still Lee Masters. So let's talk about

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Speaker 1: the path you start out in this little radio station.

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Speaker 1: How did it go from there? I always I always

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Speaker 1: said that my career was always trying to find somebody

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Speaker 1: that was more desperate than I was. I think one

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Speaker 1: of the things that was helpful in my career because

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Speaker 1: I was young, didn't have any really big needs, didn't

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Speaker 1: have a family at the time, I could just pick

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Speaker 1: up and move and like a lot of people we

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Speaker 1: know into business, we moved around a lot and just

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Speaker 1: looked for the next opportunity. And I was always looking

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Speaker 1: for a station that was well programmed, because I knew

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Speaker 1: if the station sounded really good, I would probably sound better.

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Speaker 1: Louisville is where I met you, right, I was eighteen

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Speaker 1: and you were twenty maybe yep. So how did you

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Speaker 1: wind up in Louisville. I've been working in Indianapolis, and

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Speaker 1: at the time, I think Louisville was actually and still

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Speaker 1: is a smaller market. But the radio station there was

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Speaker 1: really successful, w A k y wacky wacky, big personalities.

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Speaker 1: I think it was owned by Lynn Broadcasting, and they

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Speaker 1: owned w f i L in Philadelphia, which was a

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Speaker 1: station I thought was the greatest top forty radio station

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Speaker 1: on the planet. I wanted to work for them, so

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Speaker 1: in my mind I had this plan. I'd go to

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Speaker 1: work for them in Louisville, do a good job, and

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Speaker 1: I'd find my way to Philadelphia. And when I was

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Speaker 1: ultimately offered the job, it was midnight to six and

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Speaker 1: the money wasn't that great, and I ended up not

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Speaker 1: doing it. But that was a lot of my logic.

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Speaker 1: You were on the first people I knew who was

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Speaker 1: in the meditation. While we were all talking rock music,

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Speaker 1: you were talking philosophy. So how did that happen? I

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Speaker 1: was pretty high strung, and I found that over the

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Speaker 1: years of doing it, I could never say with any

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Speaker 1: certainty that any of the good things that were happening

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Speaker 1: in my life were directly related to it. But at

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Speaker 1: a certain point I said, I'm not going to risk it.

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Speaker 1: I seems to be working. I'm gonna stick with it.

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Speaker 1: I still meditate. It's been forty six, forty seven years.

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Speaker 1: Do you think it enhances your creativity? I think probably.

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Speaker 1: You know, David Lynch has written beautifully about creativity and meditation,

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Speaker 1: and of all the things that he discusses about meditation,

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Speaker 1: that's the one that kind of resonates the most, which

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Speaker 1: is that when I meditate, I don't necessarily meditate to

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Speaker 1: find a solution to a problem, but it helps me

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Speaker 1: relax and get centered. So when I come out of

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Speaker 1: the meditation, I tend to be able to solve some

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Speaker 1: of the things I am having to deal with with

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Speaker 1: a little more agility. I don't know that I can

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Speaker 1: ever remember or having a moment of inspiration while I

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Speaker 1: was meditating it, but afterwards. So you run through this

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Speaker 1: radio career. You and I worked together in New York. Actually,

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Speaker 1: you and I were on the TV together on a

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Speaker 1: show called Album Tracks that ran after Saturday Night Live,

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Speaker 1: which you can find. Don't tell anybody where they can

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Speaker 1: if I don't tell anybody. Whether it's pretty bad, don't

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Speaker 1: tell anybody. But with a lot of hair and a

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Speaker 1: lot of mustaches, and you left to go be a

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Speaker 1: station owner in El Paso. You've been a creative guy.

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Speaker 1: You've had to come up with ideas. You probably I

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Speaker 1: didn't really like sales because you were a creative type

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Speaker 1: and those were those sales guys. How did all this

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Speaker 1: change with ownership when you go to El Paso? And

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Speaker 1: that's a great question and something I really had to

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Speaker 1: deal with because I was on the creative side of

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Speaker 1: the town and had been programming. I bought this a

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Speaker 1: MFM in El Paso, Texas. I've been working for you

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Speaker 1: at w NBC and I was twenty six. My friends

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Speaker 1: were saying, you'd go anywhere for a dollar. I used

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Speaker 1: to joke that I bought the number eighteen radio station

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Speaker 1: in a seventeen station market, and people say, well, how

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Speaker 1: did you do that? I said, well, there was a

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Speaker 1: station in Warrez, Mexico that was actually beating us in

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Speaker 1: al Paso. But I actually had a great time. It

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Speaker 1: was just a great experience. But it was a bit

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Speaker 1: frightening because I was approaching it as a programmer. We

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Speaker 1: had an FM country station Country at the time it

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Speaker 1: really started to take off with the urban cowboy phenomena

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Speaker 1: and what was going on in Houston at Gillies. But

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Speaker 1: within a year we had the number one station in

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Speaker 1: the city playing FM country. So I figured this is

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Speaker 1: gonna be great. I had taken on all this debt

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Speaker 1: to buy the station. I'm just gonna go around to

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Speaker 1: the retailers and the advertisers and the advertising agencies and

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Speaker 1: they'll just put money on the station. And we had

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Speaker 1: a very successful competitor and AM country station and a

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Speaker 1: guy who owned it and ran it named Jim Phillips.

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Speaker 1: And i would go around to advertisers and I'd never

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Speaker 1: done this before, and I was intimidated by it, frightened

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Speaker 1: by itt want to do it, but it was it

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Speaker 1: was a matter of life or death. And I would

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Speaker 1: go to these agencies and say, you know, we're the

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Speaker 1: number one station in the city, and you know you

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Speaker 1: should advertise on us. And I got the same reaction

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Speaker 1: almost everywhere. And you know, I can't buy advertising on

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Speaker 1: your station. I said, well why not. Jim Phillips is

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Speaker 1: my best friend, were Jim Phillips is the godfather of

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Speaker 1: my children? Or Jim Phillips is a relative, and I

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Speaker 1: was like stunned. I couldn't believe it. We had the

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Speaker 1: number one station and I couldn't get any advertising on

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Speaker 1: it because this guy had developed these really strong relationships.

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Speaker 1: And that is the moment when I realized how important

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Speaker 1: relationships are in anything, and particularly in selling. He showed

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Speaker 1: up for everything. He would go to everybody's birthday, parties, weddings,

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Speaker 1: three events in an after he'd spend twenty minutes, a

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Speaker 1: half hour, and then he'd go to something else. So

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Speaker 1: I said, I'm going to have to replicate that, and

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Speaker 1: I started doing that. And then I would say, look,

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Speaker 1: even though we have the number one station of town,

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Speaker 1: I'm not asking not to advertise on his station. Why

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Speaker 1: don't you spend for your business. It would be good

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Speaker 1: for you and only kate a little of your budget,

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Speaker 1: give us ten percent of your budget, and then spend

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Speaker 1: the rest of it with him. And very slowly we

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Speaker 1: were able to get the revenue, but it took a

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Speaker 1: lot longer, and it was all about the power of relationships.

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Speaker 1: Years later, I went back to El Paso to do

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Speaker 1: a speaking engagement, and part of the deal with the

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Speaker 1: people that asked me to come in and I said,

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Speaker 1: I'll do it. I have one thing you have to

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Speaker 1: do for me. So what's that. I said, you got

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Speaker 1: to set a meal for me and Jim Phillips, I

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Speaker 1: want to sit down and say hi to him. So

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Speaker 1: we met at the Steiner and he came in and

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Speaker 1: he said, man, you really taught me programming. You kicked

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Speaker 1: our ass. And I said, yeah, but you taught me

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Speaker 1: sales and it was this great moment and those are

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Speaker 1: lessons you still used today. Yeah. Absolutely, I still think

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Speaker 1: in a world that's so data driven, it's all face

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Speaker 1: to face and I know you do it with your company.

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Speaker 1: There's nothing more powerful than face to face attack. By

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Speaker 1: the way, I look at you on social and I

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Speaker 1: see you in every city in the country at the

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Speaker 1: NPR stations, then it's very impressive. And I suspect you

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Speaker 1: found a lot of pretty interesting people around the country.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's a great fun. I've done two cross

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Speaker 1: country trips. A friend of mine called me up when

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Speaker 1: I took this job at NPR, and he said, why

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Speaker 1: don't we fly across the country together and let's visit

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Speaker 1: small NPR stations that no one from NPR has been to.

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Speaker 1: And I said, it's a great idea. So we spent

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Speaker 1: ten days flew across the country and visit a lot

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Speaker 1: of radio stations. And then a couple of years later,

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Speaker 1: I have never driven across the country. I decided to

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Speaker 1: do that and I drove from the east coast to

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Speaker 1: the west coast and visited stations. So we have two

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Speaker 1: hundred and sixty three member stations and I've been in

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Speaker 1: a hundred of them. Wow, and it was fun. But

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Speaker 1: I ate a lot of Delhi sandwiches, and good for

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Speaker 1: you're bad for you? The Delhi sandwich not so good

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Speaker 1: takeaways Lessons for me. It's never worked out the way

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Speaker 1: I expected it would. It's always longer, more difficult, more secuitous.

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Speaker 1: Anyone that's an entrepreneur knows how difficult it is to

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Speaker 1: build anything successful. I don't know if it's a naivitate

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Speaker 1: or stupidity, but it's a great virtue because if I

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Speaker 1: knew how difficult some of the things would be before

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Speaker 1: I started, I probably wouldn't have done them. And it

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Speaker 1: turned out. Okay, it worked out. Just hold on a second,

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Speaker 1: because we've got so much more to talk about. We'll

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Speaker 1: be back after a quick break. Welcome back the math

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Speaker 1: and magic. We're here with y'r all moment. You have

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Speaker 1: a great radio career, you jumped to TV. I've been

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Speaker 1: trying to get you to come to join us a

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Speaker 1: number of times, but finally talked to you out of

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Speaker 1: radio to come to v H one. What did you

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Speaker 1: find was different about TV from radio? Were the fundamentals

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Speaker 1: that struck you at that moment? For me, it was

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Speaker 1: a great transition from the radio world to the television

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Speaker 1: world because there were so many similarities. If you had

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Speaker 1: picked me up and tried to drop me into a

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Speaker 1: broadcast network to do scripted filmed entertainment, I would have,

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Speaker 1: I think, flailed and failed miserably. But ultimately we all

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Speaker 1: learned a lot of lessons about the fragility of this

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Speaker 1: brand new thing, music videos. And that was something that

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Speaker 1: we all kind of had to learn in real time

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Speaker 1: because at first everything that I had learned as a

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Speaker 1: programmer worked, and then I found that it started not working,

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Speaker 1: and it was humbling, it was embarrassing, and it didn't

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Speaker 1: There was so much heat around music videos at the time,

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Speaker 1: and there were so many people watching and being really enthralled.

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Speaker 1: But but I think ultimately it became less interesting it

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Speaker 1: was television and we were using a lot I was,

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Speaker 1: at least using a lot of radio rules for a

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Speaker 1: different medium, and people were making four minute decisions of

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Speaker 1: what they were going to watch and not thirty minute

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Speaker 1: and sixty minute or ninety minute decisions, and ultimately had

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Speaker 1: to switch strategy to go to content that people would

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Speaker 1: watch for longer periods of time, long form, and that

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Speaker 1: was very controversial at the time, but you know it worked.

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Speaker 1: What were your first shows? This was one of the

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Speaker 1: most wrenching strategic decisions because MTV had been, as you

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Speaker 1: well know, is music television all the time, We're testing

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Speaker 1: all sorts of ideas and people when we asked them

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Speaker 1: about putting non music programming on, the answer was no,

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Speaker 1: absolutely not. The ultimate thought was, well, what would be

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Speaker 1: the obvious things that fit with music? And we started

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Speaker 1: with the Weekend Rock and hiring Kurt Loader from Rolling

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Speaker 1: Stone magazine and taking the MTV news segments and making

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Speaker 1: it a half hour show that worked, and then rockumentaries

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Speaker 1: specials as the second. The third was Club MTV let's

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Speaker 1: do an American band stand for today, Let's play music

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Speaker 1: videos and hired Downtown Julie Brown. That was a hit.

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Speaker 1: Every show that went on did well. Then we're getting

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Speaker 1: really cocky and think, man, we really know how to

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Speaker 1: make hits. But I think it was more a reflection

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Speaker 1: of the fact that music videos at the time had

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Speaker 1: run their course. The most controversial one remote Control of

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Speaker 1: the game show, and all the research came back said

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Speaker 1: you can't do a game show. And I remember saying

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Speaker 1: to our good friend Marshall Cohen. We worked with an

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Speaker 1: MTV and still does work with both of us. Here

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Speaker 1: research Google, Yes, I said, I think we're asking the

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Speaker 1: wrong question. The question should be if we were to

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Speaker 1: do a game show, what would it look like? And

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Speaker 1: the answer came back, well, it should be your reverence

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Speaker 1: be crazy. We used all the information and hired Ken

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Speaker 1: Ober and Colin Quinn and Adam Sandler was a regular

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Speaker 1: on the show and it was a monster. But the

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Speaker 1: additional research the way we asked it indicated that it

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Speaker 1: would have been a disaster. It worked out great for

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Speaker 1: were you able yep? Oh yeah, yeah, and so you

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Speaker 1: were on a great run. Here there's some management changes.

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Speaker 1: Can I talk about this? There are two peers, one

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Speaker 1: of them gets promoted above you. This is probably a

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Speaker 1: situation a lot of people get into tell me about

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Speaker 1: your decision and then what you think about it in hindsight. Well,

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Speaker 1: and MTV, this was after you had left. There was

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Speaker 1: a position open for the presidency and it was me

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Speaker 1: and another guy, and it went on for a long

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Speaker 1: period of time. I was really seen as the creative

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Speaker 1: guy and the other guy was a business guy, and

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Speaker 1: the decision was to go with the business guy. It

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Speaker 1: was tough for me because I really thought I should

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Speaker 1: have that job, and I was very unhappy. But I

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Speaker 1: loved working there, I really did, and I made peace

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Speaker 1: with it and I said I'm gonna attempt to make

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Speaker 1: it work. I continued on for a period at the time,

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Speaker 1: and then what happened was the guy that had got

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Speaker 1: the promotion didn't like me being there, and ultimately I

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Speaker 1: was pushed out I think maybe six eight months afterward.

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Speaker 1: Shocked everybody. It shocked me. The traumatic thing was not

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Speaker 1: not getting the promotion. The traumatic thing was losing my job.

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Speaker 1: And there was a real personal lesson on this. So

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Speaker 1: much of the way I saw myself and defined myself,

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Speaker 1: I think, like many of us at MTV at the time,

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Speaker 1: was through affinity with the company and with the brand.

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Speaker 1: So I was devastated. I had never had anything like

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Speaker 1: that happened to me. It was just wrenching. I really

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Speaker 1: felt horrible. Now the good news is because of our

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Speaker 1: successes there. Two days later, HBO called me and said,

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Speaker 1: we got this cable network called Movie Time. We're looking

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Speaker 1: for a CEO. Would you be interested. I had been

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Speaker 1: approached by a recruiter I think four months before about

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Speaker 1: the same job. I said, are you kidding me? I

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Speaker 1: would never do that. That's awful. I would never do

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Speaker 1: that job. So now, of course I'm out of work.

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking maybe I should take a look at it.

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Speaker 1: And was able to negotiate my first equity where I

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Speaker 1: could own a piece of the company and get some

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Speaker 1: value if I grew it. So I was out of

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Speaker 1: work for basically. I was in negotiations forty eight hours

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Speaker 1: after I was But it still didn't feel good. And

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Speaker 1: years later, you know, I would talk to Tom Freston,

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Speaker 1: who took over as chairman when you left the company,

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Speaker 1: and he said, you know, it's the worst business decision

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Speaker 1: I've ever made. And I said, Tom, don't fret. It

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Speaker 1: turned out pretty good for me. For me, not for me.

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Speaker 1: You went on to Movie Time and of course movie

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Speaker 1: Tim who cares about that? You took that network and

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Speaker 1: you turned it into E Entertainment Television, and boy were

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Speaker 1: you on fire. I remember there was something about you

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Speaker 1: shaving the logo in your head. Well, people thought I did.

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Speaker 1: We had a trade ad. This is a great message

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Speaker 1: of the power of terrific creative The ad agency that

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Speaker 1: we used at the time, B B d OH had

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Speaker 1: this campaign. At the time, it was unusual to have

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Speaker 1: a one letter network, one letter and an exclamation point. Right.

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Speaker 1: That's another one of those fascinating behind the scenes conversations.

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Speaker 1: Because we were going to call it entertainment television. We

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Speaker 1: knew that we had done all this research. Do we

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Speaker 1: call it E N T Do we call it e

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Speaker 1: t V? And playoff the MTV thing? Do we call

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Speaker 1: it E N t V? What do we do? And

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Speaker 1: we did all this research against the three names, and

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Speaker 1: it came back it was E t V. We were

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Speaker 1: just going to be E TV, spinning off of the

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Speaker 1: the MTV. So we hire this creative team to go

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Speaker 1: away and do the logo and this marketing package for us.

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Speaker 1: They were coming up to my house in Connecticut and

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Speaker 1: they're doing a big presentation about the new logo and

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Speaker 1: they've got it hidden on one of these big poster

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Speaker 1: boards covered with a cloth as they always do this

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Speaker 1: big wind up pitch and then they do the big

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Speaker 1: reveal and I look at this exclamation point and the

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Speaker 1: e I said, where's the rest? They we decided not

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Speaker 1: to do it. I said, what we we spent all

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Speaker 1: this you did what? They said, No, no, no, we

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Speaker 1: don't like a TV we wanted to be. I said,

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Speaker 1: it is not what we hired you for. And they

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Speaker 1: basically convinced me that it was different, it would break through,

430
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:27,880
Speaker 1: and we ended up doing it and it worked out.

431
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:31,280
Speaker 1: We launched the network. The ad agency, a different group

432
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,280
Speaker 1: from the design group. I had this idea. We were

433
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,159
Speaker 1: trying to get carriage on the cable systems across the country,

434
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:40,560
Speaker 1: so the network before was a dog total. So you

435
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:44,000
Speaker 1: had a big rebuild job to do getting carriage as

436
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:47,159
Speaker 1: well as getting users right. So it was tough because

437
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:51,120
Speaker 1: it already had a really tainted brand. The cable operators

438
00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:53,160
Speaker 1: didn't want have anything to do with the advertisers didn't

439
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:55,000
Speaker 1: want everything to do with it. We had to completely

440
00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 1: reposition it. So we came up with this logo and

441
00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:01,400
Speaker 1: they ran a trade campaign just for the cable operators.

442
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:05,040
Speaker 1: So it was in Multi Channel News and Cable Vision magazine.

443
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:08,600
Speaker 1: There were probably three or four magazines. Was like two

444
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 1: full pages and they took a shot of me. It

445
00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:14,400
Speaker 1: looked like I had shaved the logo into my head,

446
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 1: so I was completely bald except for the exclamation point

447
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:21,200
Speaker 1: and the E and the captions that. Trust me, it'll

448
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:25,320
Speaker 1: catch on to this day, people mentioned that to me.

449
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:29,160
Speaker 1: I said it ran three times across four magazines, so

450
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:32,520
Speaker 1: total of twelve. It went viral. It went viralent viral,

451
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 1: before the days of things going viral. I think this

452
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 1: was people's zeroxyne and tearing it out and sending to someone.

453
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 1: But it was great fun. But I didn't actually shave

454
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 1: my head. It was it was disappointed. I thought it

455
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 1: was you really shaped the head. So you're known for

456
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:49,879
Speaker 1: building strong teams at E you built a fantastic team.

457
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:51,439
Speaker 1: I mean, you've got to convince people to come to

458
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,479
Speaker 1: this terrible network that nobody wants to be associated with,

459
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,720
Speaker 1: that has one letter instead of three letters for a name.

460
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,200
Speaker 1: How did you build a team? And what lesson? See

461
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 1: a takeaway that you use even today building teams. And

462
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:06,199
Speaker 1: we didn't have much money either, which really made it

463
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:11,320
Speaker 1: even more complicated, and so out of desperation came the strategy,

464
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:16,240
Speaker 1: which was, instead of me trying to go to look

465
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 1: at other cable networks and hire the best possible person

466
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:23,160
Speaker 1: I could, I couldn't afford it. I didn't have the money.

467
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 1: And I thought about myself having been in a number

468
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 1: two spot and wanting to move to a number one spot.

469
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 1: In almost every one of these organizations, there's somebody in

470
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 1: the number two spots that's really excellent that's being blocked

471
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:41,160
Speaker 1: by somebody that's not going anywhere. So I said, maybe

472
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 1: I can afford them, And that's kind of what the

473
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 1: operating strategy was. So one by one we hired people.

474
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:49,440
Speaker 1: I needed a great head of distribution, so we looked

475
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:51,960
Speaker 1: at a lot of cable networks and found somebody that

476
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,040
Speaker 1: was in the number two slot. Did the same thing

477
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 1: for sponsorship, for advertising sales. The guy who ran ad

478
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:00,919
Speaker 1: sales for me for years, Dave Cassaro. I hired him

479
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 1: from Fox Broadcast Network. He was the number two guy

480
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 1: in New York and his boss wasn't going anywhere. Was

481
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,360
Speaker 1: highly successful, so I was able to cut a deal

482
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,959
Speaker 1: with him. And again because he was a sales guy.

483
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,399
Speaker 1: I didn't have to give him a huge salary, but

484
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,560
Speaker 1: I wanted to give him a huge upside on performance,

485
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,879
Speaker 1: so I was able to snag him. It's a really

486
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 1: funny story because we were so poor at the time.

487
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,639
Speaker 1: We couldn't even afford daily Nielsen ratings. You know, in

488
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 1: the television business, every day you come in and overnights

489
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 1: the overnight's first thing you have in the morning is

490
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 1: you give your cup of coffee and you're looking at

491
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 1: the ratings and you saw how you did yesterday for

492
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:40,359
Speaker 1: each fifteen minutes segment. We were so poor we bought

493
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,440
Speaker 1: the ratings once a week, and it wasn't even by

494
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,119
Speaker 1: hour or half hour fifteen minutes. It was by just

495
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 1: broad day parts. The audience was so small it was unreportable.

496
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,120
Speaker 1: The sheet of paper would be a field of asterix,

497
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 1: and it maybe midday Saturday, ten to three on Saturday,

498
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 1: I'd get a point one, which was great writing today,

499
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:07,640
Speaker 1: which was that's funny. Yes, it was rounded up. Dave Cassaro,

500
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 1: who ran advertising sales, would call me up every Monday.

501
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:13,159
Speaker 1: He was in New York. I would be in my

502
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 1: office at nine o'clock in l A and he would go,

503
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,120
Speaker 1: I can't believe you talked me into leaving my great job.

504
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,639
Speaker 1: I can't believe it. And he would look at the

505
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 1: ratings and he would just what are you going to

506
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,680
Speaker 1: do to get the ratings? So and this went on

507
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,200
Speaker 1: every Monday for months and months and months, and slowly.

508
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 1: You know what we did was we focused on that

509
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 1: one day part Saturday Middays where he had a barely

510
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,120
Speaker 1: a point one. What can we do to leverage that

511
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:42,680
Speaker 1: and just build that up and then move those viewers

512
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 1: to another day part. And after a series of moves

513
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:51,360
Speaker 1: and one massive failure after another, we finally got there

514
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 1: and we grew distribution and some of the hits you

515
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:57,879
Speaker 1: had from that era where the big one was Talk Soup,

516
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 1: which is a great creative story. I love telling this

517
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,360
Speaker 1: one because I think there's a phenomenal lesson in it.

518
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:08,919
Speaker 1: We had given the programming department a budget. I said, Okay,

519
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 1: I want six thirty minute shows for prime time. That's

520
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:17,400
Speaker 1: all we could afford doing. That's three our block. We're

521
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,359
Speaker 1: going to run it from eight until eleven, and it

522
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 1: will repeat it. That will be the West Coast feed.

523
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 1: That's the philosophy. Come back with your lineup of six

524
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 1: half hour shows. So they go away, they work on it,

525
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:32,920
Speaker 1: got the big presentation, same thing. The big poster board

526
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,240
Speaker 1: is up in the conference room. Now they've got a

527
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 1: sheet over it. They do the reveal and I said,

528
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 1: they're only five here. I said, am I missing something?

529
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 1: Is there's something else? No? No, we ran out of money.

530
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 1: We don't have money for six. I just said, that's crazy.

531
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 1: We gotta have six. We can't do it two and

532
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 1: a half hour block and repeat it. We have to

533
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 1: do a three hour block. Well, we don't already money.

534
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 1: I said, you gotta come up with something. So I'm

535
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:00,080
Speaker 1: running at the beach and run at the beach you

536
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 1: every morning, and I'm thinking, what can I do for

537
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 1: no money at all. It was at the period of time.

538
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 1: Do you remember HARALDA. Rivera had the talk show and

539
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 1: he had some skinheads on these, you know, white nationalists,

540
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 1: and guy picks up a metal chair and hits Haraldo

541
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 1: over the head with the chair and breaks his nose.

542
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 1: Everybody was showing that clip, and I went, man, that's

543
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 1: great television. There were all these talk shows at the time.

544
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 1: Sally Jesse, Raphael Jenny Jones, went Morton and Jerry Springer.

545
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 1: There were tons of them, and every one of them

546
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 1: had that bizarre moment. I'm running at the beach and

547
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 1: I'm thinking, what can I do for free? We could

548
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 1: lift that outrageous moment from every one of those talk

549
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 1: shows if we promoted after the thing was done, was

550
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 1: and tomorrow and Jerry Springer, it's going to be blah

551
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. Bay. So I come in to the

552
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 1: programming meeting and I said, I've got an idea. I said,

553
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 1: I don't think it's a culterally great idea, but it's

554
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 1: an idea, and it won't cost us. Anybody will shoot

555
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 1: it in front of a blue screen. The set will

556
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 1: be a stool, it will have a host, and that's it,

557
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 1: and we'll run these clips and we'll get it for free.

558
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 1: We'll produce it for nothing. There was dead suns. Then

559
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 1: they finally started talking and said, we can't do that's

560
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 1: a terrible idea. That's awful television. I go, well, I

561
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 1: don't think it's a particularly great idea myself, but it's

562
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 1: better than your idea. You have no idea. I have

563
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 1: an idea. An idea is better than no idea. So

564
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 1: I said I'll tell you what, if you have an

565
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 1: idea that's even remotely close toine for the budget that

566
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 1: mine is, we'll go with yours, and if you don't,

567
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 1: we'll go with mine. Of course, they go away. Three

568
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 1: weeks later they come back. They have nothing, so they

569
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 1: cast Greg kinnear as the host. They said, he's a

570
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 1: good looking guy, he can read a prompter. He doesn't

571
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 1: have any personality. Go, no, no, he really does, he

572
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 1: really does. We just let us do a test. So

573
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 1: I said fine. So they showed me the tape and

574
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 1: he was awesome. I said, why wasn't he like this

575
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 1: on movie time? He's great. So they came up with

576
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 1: the name Talk Soup. We launched six shows. Of those shows,

577
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 1: there was one moderate hit, you know e News Daily,

578
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 1: and there was one monster runaway hit which was talking.

579
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 1: It was a monster and it was just pure desperation.

580
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 1: By the way, the best ideas come out of desperation.

581
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 1: I agree. So you're there, big success, you leave and

582
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 1: you go join the legendary John Malone at Liberty tell

583
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 1: us about that. It was the longest run I had anywhere.

584
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 1: I was there for nine years, and then the company

585
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 1: got sold Comcast after nine years, I was not creatively challenged.

586
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 1: I had an idea. At the time, we built a

587
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 1: great team. We had a great ad sales group, great

588
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 1: distribution group, great marketing group, and you know, I thought

589
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 1: what we could do was if we could get the

590
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:04,959
Speaker 1: owners to buy some of these independent, small, medium sized

591
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 1: cable networks, we could consolidate and make a lot of money.

592
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 1: But I just couldn't get them to do it. So

593
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 1: I got frustrated. Liberty owned I think ten percent of

594
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 1: us at the time, and Dobb Bennett was the CEO.

595
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 1: They worked with John Malone. They knew I was getting Nancy,

596
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 1: and so they kept bringing ideas to me. John said,

597
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 1: we owned ten percent, we want and so ultimately he

598
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 1: came to me with this idea of Liberty Digital, which

599
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 1: was become an investment arm for Liberty Media. On the

600
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 1: digital side, Malone had sold tc I cable system to

601
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 1: a T and T, and one of the provisions in

602
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:45,760
Speaker 1: this deal is that they could have some bandwidth on

603
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 1: all the systems even when they sold it. And they

604
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 1: wanted to create twelve twenty four hour day, fully interactive

605
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 1: e commerce channels, and so they wanted me as a

606
00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 1: programmer to create this business does a turn and out.

607
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 1: Even today, that technology, the set top box technology is

608
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 1: not there, but that was the intention of the company.

609
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 1: And in the meantime they said, here, we'll put fifty

610
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 1: million dollars in cash in and we'll put some other assets,

611
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 1: and typical fashion, he gave me a bunch of dogs

612
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 1: and said, fix those. I'll put them in your portfolio

613
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,120
Speaker 1: and make some investments. I'm not an investment professional. I

614
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 1: wasn't then, so I put together a team of people

615
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 1: that were from strategic consulting firms like McKenzie and ellie

616
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 1: k and Bain that had a lot of experience and

617
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 1: due diligence and doing deals that I didn't have, and

618
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 1: we just started making investments. And the timing was pre bubble,

619
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 1: so a lot of them were rocket ships. And that's

620
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,720
Speaker 1: how I got into the investment business, kind of by accident.

621
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 1: You didn't seem to miss working. You sort of enjoyed

622
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 1: your life. Oh yeah, very much. So although I was working,

623
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 1: I wasn't. I think my line was got misquoted. I

624
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 1: actually had said working full time time for other people

625
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 1: is overrated, and everybody heard heard it as working is overrated.

626
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 1: But it was just working full time well, yeah, maybe.

627
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 1: So for thirteen years I just worked for myself. I

628
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:16,840
Speaker 1: was working, I just wasn't running a company. I was

629
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 1: just doing investments and sitting on boards of companies I

630
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 1: invested in. What motivated you to go back to running something?

631
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 1: How'd that happened? Well? It was very different because I

632
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,360
Speaker 1: didn't want to go back to work. Um. In fact,

633
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:33,280
Speaker 1: I absolutely was opposed to it. I wanted to allocate

634
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:39,399
Speaker 1: about of my time to not for profits, which cheer

635
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:41,880
Speaker 1: for I think thirteen fourteen years of the a c

636
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 1: l U Southern California, civil liberty is very important to me. UM.

637
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 1: But I also got involved in public radio and KPCC

638
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 1: in l A had just been started as a second

639
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 1: NPR member station there. Really got deeply involved. It was

640
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:57,800
Speaker 1: really fun being back in radio, even though it was

641
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 1: a different kind of radio. There had been a lot

642
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,400
Speaker 1: of turnover in the CEO position at NPR. I really

643
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:08,400
Speaker 1: love public radio. I really like the mission. I really

644
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 1: love the service and the content, the journalism. And when

645
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 1: the position came open, I was asked if I would

646
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 1: even consider it. I said, you know, I don't want

647
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 1: to work. I don't want to go to work. I've

648
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 1: got a great life. That's the one thing, that's the

649
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 1: one thing on the planet that I would do. So

650
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:28,879
Speaker 1: I made a commitment to spend five years here, and

651
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 1: that's kind of how it came to be. I remember

652
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 1: the conversation you were. You were wrestling with it, and

653
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 1: I actually thought you were not going to do it,

654
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 1: but obviously the passion got you. So you arrive at NPR,

655
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 1: one of the great brands in audio, You look around,

656
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,919
Speaker 1: you meet everybody. What you think was the big opportunity, Well,

657
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:48,880
Speaker 1: you know, my take was that the mission and the

658
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:52,920
Speaker 1: primary focus of the organization, which is journalism and storytelling,

659
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:57,280
Speaker 1: was and has been from the beginning, very very good,

660
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 1: and so I didn't see that as being what needed help.

661
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:04,359
Speaker 1: But the business side of the equation had not been

662
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 1: particularly well tended to five or six years in a

663
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 1: row of losses, and I saw a huge opportunity from

664
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:16,320
Speaker 1: a sponsorship standpoint, from a fundraising standpoint, better station relationships.

665
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 1: A lot of people don't know this. We don't own

666
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:21,839
Speaker 1: the stations, we don't manage the stations. They're fully independent,

667
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 1: and that's one of the beauties of the system because

668
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:28,960
Speaker 1: they provide local service, they're locally owned, locally managed locally operated,

669
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 1: but I really saw an opportunity to kind of reduce

670
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:36,399
Speaker 1: the friction between the stations and the network, develop partnerships,

671
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 1: help the stations, help us grow the revenue side of

672
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 1: the business, and that's kind of what we focused on

673
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 1: and rebuilding the management team to do that. When I

674
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:49,800
Speaker 1: go talk to advertisers, I'm in the audio business. Everybody

675
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 1: wants to talk about two things, smart speakers and podcast

676
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 1: So tell us the story about podcasting here. NPR has

677
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 1: been in that business for a long time. A lot

678
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,439
Speaker 1: of it be in just as being able to listen

679
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:05,880
Speaker 1: to some of the programming that the network did on

680
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 1: demand on your own whenever you wanted to, and so

681
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:12,919
Speaker 1: we had kind of a leg up. And also because

682
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:16,120
Speaker 1: we've been doing spoken word for forty eight years, we

683
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:19,799
Speaker 1: have that expertise and audio and storytelling, and so that

684
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 1: gave us a real advantage in scale. When podcasting is

685
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 1: a category took off with listeners and with advertisers, we

686
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:31,239
Speaker 1: really kind of had au phole position. It's been a

687
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 1: real god's end. It's been great for the organization for

688
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,839
Speaker 1: many other reasons, not just the business side of it,

689
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 1: in terms of reaching new people, expanding our mission bringing

690
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 1: new people into public radio, particularly a younger audience that

691
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 1: maybe doesn't have the affinity for the news service initially,

692
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 1: but also in things like NPR Music and some of

693
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 1: the other content targeting a younger audience or a more

694
00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:58,879
Speaker 1: diverse audience. So it gives us a chance to really

695
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:02,719
Speaker 1: grow the brand, to get both into the NPR experience

696
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,959
Speaker 1: that comes to the network when news becomes something that's

697
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 1: interesting or important to them. And it's also had another

698
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 1: interesting effect, which is we put people that have been

699
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:18,400
Speaker 1: on the network for years, traditional journalists and correspondence in

700
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:22,440
Speaker 1: a podcast with let's say a younger group of talent.

701
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 1: It really affects the sound of the network. We keep

702
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:30,440
Speaker 1: the journalistic standards high, but making it more accessible to people,

703
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:34,399
Speaker 1: more conversational, more informal, has really expanded the audience. Well,

704
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:35,879
Speaker 1: you guys have done a great job. As a matter

705
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,760
Speaker 1: of fact, we did the first I Heeart Podcast Awards

706
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 1: this year and you guys won the award for really

707
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 1: being a pioneer in this business. So thank you for that.

708
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 1: We're really appreciative. You've announced you're stepping down to CEO

709
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 1: when your contract expires, and you're gonna be the chief fundraiser.

710
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:55,319
Speaker 1: That's like the harder job, isn't it. You and your

711
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 1: wife Pam, who's by the way, spectacular partner of years,

712
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:00,080
Speaker 1: and are kicking it off with a ten million all

713
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 1: our donations. So not only fundraising. You're like saying, Okay,

714
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:03,960
Speaker 1: I put my money up. Now what are you going

715
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 1: to do? What are your plans for that? I mean,

716
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 1: what kind of goal do you have for MPR through

717
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:12,319
Speaker 1: that effort. Well, we have big aspirations. Will be our

718
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 1: fiftieth anniversary, So we think it's a great opportunity to

719
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 1: reach out to the people that are big believers in

720
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 1: public service journalism what we've done at NPR, and to

721
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 1: work with us and our member stations so we can

722
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:26,920
Speaker 1: raise money not just for us, but also try to

723
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 1: be helpful to them. Back to the business side of it,

724
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 1: major gifts, the fundraising piece has never been a big

725
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 1: initiative at the organization, I think to the detriment of

726
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 1: us at NPR into the stations, So we think there's

727
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 1: a great opportunity. The personal number I have in my

728
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 1: head for us here is million. That's what I'd like

729
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:53,799
Speaker 1: to do before. So I'm not gonna answer my phone

730
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 1: until you get to Anton's I was just trying to

731
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 1: get that on the table. You are a board member

732
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:01,000
Speaker 1: of the Museum of Contemporary Art in l A for

733
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 1: quite a while, and art is a very important part

734
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 1: of your life. You had a great collection and a

735
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,320
Speaker 1: lot of people come visit it. Where did that come from?

736
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 1: Both of my parents had a real affinity for art.

737
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:15,000
Speaker 1: My mother was a graphic designer. My father loved art.

738
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 1: We grew up outside Philadelphia. Never once took me to

739
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:23,200
Speaker 1: a museum, not once, but he would talk about art,

740
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:25,759
Speaker 1: and so I think that probably had an impact. And

741
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:30,320
Speaker 1: then ultimately, I think art can really open one's eyes

742
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 1: to the world and get you to think about a

743
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 1: different perspective. And so if you're in the business of

744
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 1: trying to come up with creative solutions to anything, even

745
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 1: if it's something mathematical, I just think it's an interesting

746
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 1: stimulant for the brain. At some subconscious level. I think

747
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:52,400
Speaker 1: it is something that helps me with my own creativity

748
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:55,240
Speaker 1: and my own problem solving. So let's jump real quickly.

749
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:59,720
Speaker 1: Let's do some quick responses to looking at the future.

750
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 1: Let's hit some of them. Future podcasting I think huge

751
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:09,279
Speaker 1: and it's exciting for many reasons. Audio documentaries. I think

752
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:12,359
Speaker 1: we're going to see a lot of expansion in other categories.

753
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:15,399
Speaker 1: Some of the work you're doing on comedic stuff. Can

754
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:20,200
Speaker 1: I plug Ron Burgundy? I think you know right now,

755
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:24,280
Speaker 1: what's the number? Twenty seven percent of the population listens

756
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:27,440
Speaker 1: to a podcast once a week. There's so much headroom

757
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 1: for growth. I think it's going to grow in terms

758
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:32,920
Speaker 1: of the number of people that listen the number of

759
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:36,360
Speaker 1: podcasts they listen to. That's pretty formidable as it is.

760
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 1: Seven I think is the average if you're listening to podcasts,

761
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:43,400
Speaker 1: and I think different forms, different lengths. So I am

762
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 1: very bullish about it. I think it's an exciting opportunity.

763
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:52,880
Speaker 1: TV networks, Yeah yeah, I still think brands really matter.

764
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:58,719
Speaker 1: Is Netflix a TV network? I don't know. People treat

765
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:01,280
Speaker 1: it that way. It is a rand and they're doing

766
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:04,919
Speaker 1: a lot of great original content. It's fascinating because now

767
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 1: you've got Hulu doing the same, Amazon doing the same,

768
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 1: and it's making, you know, the people that had really

769
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 1: been in the lead position before, like HBO and Showtime,

770
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 1: really have to step up and compete. We've both made

771
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 1: our careers working on brands. I think brands still will matter.

772
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:26,839
Speaker 1: I think it's going to be much much harder to do.

773
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:31,480
Speaker 1: And the scale of the money that's being spent on

774
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:34,919
Speaker 1: this Amazon is a twelve billion, thirteen billion. It's more

775
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:38,479
Speaker 1: money than you spent on talks. Just buy a little

776
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 1: bit ad agencies, ad agencies. Well, you know I've heard

777
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:46,279
Speaker 1: and you would know this better than I. I don't

778
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:50,239
Speaker 1: know that the for years the business separated. It used

779
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:52,759
Speaker 1: to be one stop. You'd had someone to do the

780
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 1: buying and the planning for a campaign and also do

781
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:57,840
Speaker 1: the creative and then they kind of got split. You

782
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 1: had creative shops and you had buying shops. And I'm

783
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:05,279
Speaker 1: hearing from people now what's going back to consolidation under

784
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 1: one roof. I don't know enough about that business to know,

785
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:13,240
Speaker 1: but I do know that great creativity is I think

786
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 1: going to be the thing that makes a difference because

787
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:18,960
Speaker 1: the data. I don't think you keep an edge for

788
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:21,640
Speaker 1: very long. I think with creativity you can math and

789
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 1: magic there you go exactly find out what it is.

790
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:26,160
Speaker 1: We've got to excite people about it to get him

791
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:29,880
Speaker 1: to do some Privacy. The Times right now is running

792
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:36,280
Speaker 1: a whole series of articles on privacy. It's it's breathtaking

793
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 1: what's happening. I think it will become the issue of

794
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:41,920
Speaker 1: the day as people become much more aware of it.

795
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 1: A lot of young people don't seem to care. There

796
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:47,240
Speaker 1: is a I think a crossover point. My oldest daughter

797
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:49,960
Speaker 1: never really thought about it, didn't think much about it.

798
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:52,360
Speaker 1: But I wanted to get her a smart speaker. She says, no,

799
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:54,239
Speaker 1: I don't want to have that microphone in my house.

800
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 1: I go, this is important to my business. You must

801
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:00,320
Speaker 1: have a smart speaker. She has relented. She has one now,

802
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 1: but it was interesting as a thirty four year old.

803
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:06,920
Speaker 1: Her notion and her concern about privacy is much different

804
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:09,319
Speaker 1: now than it was when she was twenty. We think

805
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:12,319
Speaker 1: about MTV, we think about e we think about all

806
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:15,839
Speaker 1: these exciting ideas. How do you think people find these

807
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:18,280
Speaker 1: new voices and come up with these new ideas today?

808
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:20,319
Speaker 1: And do you think people are doing it? I look

809
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 1: back in the early days of the motion picture business

810
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:27,440
Speaker 1: and you look at somebody like Irving Thalberg, who was

811
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:32,640
Speaker 1: hired by Carl Lemley to run Universal. I think he

812
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 1: was nineteen or twenty at the time, and then Louis B.

813
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 1: Mayer hired him to be vice president of production for MGM,

814
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:43,600
Speaker 1: and he did all the classics, the great MGM films.

815
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 1: I think he was twenty three at the time that

816
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:51,400
Speaker 1: he produced and oversaw all of those incredible films and

817
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:54,160
Speaker 1: Orson Welles. One of the things I love about Orson

818
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 1: Wells is a lot of people don't notice his favorite

819
00:44:56,640 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 1: medium was radio, and the reason was said, the listener

820
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:04,160
Speaker 1: has to fill in some of it. The listener has

821
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:07,879
Speaker 1: to participate to create the story. And so he did

822
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:12,279
Speaker 1: War of the World's when I think he was one,

823
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:14,719
Speaker 1: and he started working a Citizen King when he was

824
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 1: twenty three. I was mentioning this somebody one time, and

825
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:22,400
Speaker 1: the response, which really helped inform my thinking, was really

826
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:25,839
Speaker 1: young minds come up with great creative ideas and are

827
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:29,719
Speaker 1: given the shot in new, really new businesses, but no

828
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:32,760
Speaker 1: one's going to take the chance on an established indassy

829
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 1: throwing the keys. I think about you when you were

830
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:39,480
Speaker 1: w m a Q in Chicago at twenty Charlie Warner,

831
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 1: who hired me, must have been out of his mind.

832
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 1: Why would you hire a twenty year old kid to

833
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 1: go to NBC's big am clear channel radio station in Chicago,

834
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:50,799
Speaker 1: And then why would they take me to New York

835
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:55,960
Speaker 1: at age's unbelievable, but they threw the keys. It's easy

836
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:58,920
Speaker 1: in theory, it's very hard in practice. I think the

837
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:02,239
Speaker 1: answer is you've got to find Bob Pittman, You've got

838
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:05,600
Speaker 1: to find Orson Wells, You've got to find Irving Felberg,

839
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:08,239
Speaker 1: because they're out there. I don't know who they are,

840
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 1: what I have the courage to do it throw the

841
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:14,520
Speaker 1: keys to them? Probably not, but I think that's the

842
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:18,440
Speaker 1: an certain So this is about stories from the frontiers

843
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:21,840
Speaker 1: of marketing. You are young ones. What advice would you

844
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:24,400
Speaker 1: be looking for that you could give somebody. The biggest

845
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 1: lesson for me, maybe there's something of value in this

846
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:31,600
Speaker 1: for somebody else. Is the power of great ideas, the

847
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:36,160
Speaker 1: power of great creative are hugely important, particularly in a

848
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:40,239
Speaker 1: world where data is pervasive. This is not disparaging that

849
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:42,800
Speaker 1: at all. You've gotta have that. Those are table stakes.

850
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:45,879
Speaker 1: Everybody's gonna have it. Some people are gonna be better

851
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 1: at interpreting it than others, but everyone's gonna have access,

852
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:51,319
Speaker 1: and it's going to be an arms race, and that

853
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:54,720
Speaker 1: will always be something everybody has to have. The layer

854
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:58,480
Speaker 1: over that, which I think is very important, and it's

855
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:02,839
Speaker 1: the real value add whether talking about radio, television, networks,

856
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:07,759
Speaker 1: ad agencies, filmed entertainment is the creative piece. I don't

857
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:11,440
Speaker 1: hear as much conversation about the creative piece of the

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00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 1: equation as I do about data. If I were a marketer,

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00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 1: to differentiate myself from everybody else, I would focus on

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00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:21,680
Speaker 1: that this sort of insists in the right place. This

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00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:25,440
Speaker 1: podcast is about the mathew magical marketing, the analytical. We

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00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 1: gotta measure it. And of course once you measure it,

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00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 1: know everything. That doesn't cause anybody to do anything, you

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00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 1: have to do something about it. That's the magic. So

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Speaker 1: as you think about it, who's the greatest mathematician, you know,

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00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 1: the greatest mathematician, the person who just got the data,

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00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:46,360
Speaker 1: understands it, has those insights. John Malone. Who's the greatest magician?

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00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 1: M hm, wow, I don't know. I gotta think about that.

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00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 1: In the greatest magician, I'm stumped. There's so many people

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00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:00,719
Speaker 1: that have done just really great work. I would have

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00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:07,759
Speaker 1: to Spielberg. We'll take it. Thanks Jarl, Thanks Leavings, Thanks

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00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:13,840
Speaker 1: to my great friend, Thank you, Bob. Here are some

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00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:16,000
Speaker 1: things I picked up for my old friend. Y're all

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00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:20,200
Speaker 1: moan one relationships or everything in business. You all picked

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00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:22,840
Speaker 1: that up from a salesman in El Paso who attended

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00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 1: everybody's birthday and baptism, and it's a lesson he hasn't forgotten. Two.

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Speaker 1: Desperate situations can be great for creativity. If you all

878
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 1: have more money for programming, he might never have come

879
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 1: up a talk suit. Three. The key to finding new

880
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:40,360
Speaker 1: voices and not letting your brand get lapped is to

881
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:43,000
Speaker 1: throw young people the keys and let them drive. It

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00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:45,640
Speaker 1: could be scary, but it's something both Yarl and I believe.

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00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:04,320
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. I'm Bob Pittman. That's it for today's episode.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening to Math and Magic, a

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00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:09,879
Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. This show is hosted by

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00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 1: Bob Pittman. Special thanks to Sue Schillinger for booking and

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00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:16,440
Speaker 1: wrangling our wonderful talent, which is no small feat. Nikki

888
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 1: Etre for pulling research bill plaques, and Michael Asar for

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00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 1: their recording help, our editor Ryan Murdoch, and of course

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Speaker 1: Gayle Raoul, Eric Angel, Noel Mango and everyone who helped

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Speaker 1: bring this show to your ears. Until next time,