WEBVTT - Herpes: Symptoms and Stigma 0:00:05.480 --> 0:00:10.160 I'm Jacob Goldstein. This is incubation on today's show Herpes. 0:00:11.840 --> 0:00:14.960 Yeah, I became the Herpes Girl for a while, which 0:00:14.960 --> 0:00:19.159 I didn't expect, and there's some pros and cons to that. 0:00:19.880 --> 0:00:23.239 I was really delighted by how excited people were to 0:00:23.239 --> 0:00:26.560 have this conversation, but it was also very strange and 0:00:26.600 --> 0:00:29.200 like I would go back to my college campus around 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:31.240 that time and people would be like, it's the herpes girl. 0:00:31.520 --> 0:00:34.360 I'd be like, Hi, you've. 0:00:34.159 --> 0:00:40.920 Heard Ella Dawson writes about sex and culture and she's 0:00:40.960 --> 0:00:44.000 also one of the billions of people billions with a 0:00:44.040 --> 0:00:47.280 bee living with herpes. We'll hear a lot more from 0:00:47.280 --> 0:00:50.440 Ella later on, but first let's do a little herpes 0:00:50.479 --> 0:00:52.640 one on one For this part of the show, I 0:00:52.720 --> 0:00:57.160 called up a herpes authority on a wault. Is it 0:00:57.200 --> 0:00:58.840 true that you're the Queen of Herpes? 0:00:59.160 --> 0:01:04.920 Yes, that's my less formal title. Let's just say I 0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:08.120 was introduced like that about now twenty years ago, and 0:01:08.160 --> 0:01:11.959 I decided to adopt that namucher and I've been doing 0:01:11.959 --> 0:01:15.600 herpes work now for thirty years. There are not a 0:01:15.640 --> 0:01:19.920 lot of experts in this field, and I've stuck with it. 0:01:20.640 --> 0:01:23.399 In addition to being Herpe's royalty. Anna is also a 0:01:23.440 --> 0:01:27.440 professor of epidemiology at the University of Washington, and today 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:30.280 we're turning to Anna to explain five key things to 0:01:30.360 --> 0:01:33.319 know about herpes. By the way, Anna talks about the 0:01:33.400 --> 0:01:36.160 two types of herpes that we usually hear about, which 0:01:36.200 --> 0:01:41.560 are known as HSV one and HSV two. So thing 0:01:41.640 --> 0:01:44.880 number one to know about herpes, most people have it. 0:01:45.400 --> 0:01:49.480 How many people in the world are infected with herpes. 0:01:50.480 --> 0:01:52.920 Well, it depends if you're talking about HSV one or 0:01:53.120 --> 0:01:57.440 HSV two. HSV one about two thirds of people in 0:01:57.480 --> 0:02:01.960 the world have HSV one infection and most of its oral, 0:02:02.160 --> 0:02:06.760 but not all. Some of it is genital, and about 0:02:07.280 --> 0:02:10.639 fourteen percent or so have genital HSV two infection. 0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:14.720 Wow, So that's thing number one to know about herpes. 0:02:15.080 --> 0:02:18.280 Thing number two, it's really common to have herpes and 0:02:18.320 --> 0:02:19.040 not even know it. 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:24.959 Only about twenty percent of people who have HSV two infection, 0:02:25.120 --> 0:02:28.000 which is the main cause of genital herpes, at least 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:31.080 historically know that they have genital herpes. 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:33.959 Next thing to know. Part of the reason so many 0:02:33.960 --> 0:02:36.720 people don't know they have herpes is that testing is 0:02:36.800 --> 0:02:38.440 notoriously unreliable. 0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:42.359 The problem is that many of these essays that are 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:46.960 now commercially available, they're not that accurate. And what's happened 0:02:47.000 --> 0:02:51.400 because the frequency of herpes has gone down, but the 0:02:51.440 --> 0:02:55.560 frequency of testing has gone up, the proportion that's actually 0:02:55.960 --> 0:02:58.160 diagnosed incorrectly has increased. 0:02:58.600 --> 0:03:00.480 So there are a lot of false positive A lot 0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:02.840 of people get herpes tests that say they have herpes 0:03:02.880 --> 0:03:03.880 when in fact they do not. 0:03:04.720 --> 0:03:08.440 Right, Because we have people who got tested for whatever 0:03:08.520 --> 0:03:10.640 reason for HSV two. They had a new partner, they 0:03:10.639 --> 0:03:13.280 were anxious about it, and the test came back positive 0:03:13.480 --> 0:03:18.960 for HSV two. I had somebody who didn't believe that 0:03:19.000 --> 0:03:21.680 they have it and the gynecologists tell them to go 0:03:21.760 --> 0:03:25.520 to therapy to accept it. She was subsequently tested with 0:03:25.560 --> 0:03:29.840 an accurate test and the geynecologist was wrong. Right, So 0:03:29.880 --> 0:03:32.000 we're giving people a false diagnosis. 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:36.280 You and your colleagues have developed a better test than 0:03:36.320 --> 0:03:37.000 the common test. 0:03:37.120 --> 0:03:37.640 Is that right? 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:42.560 My colleague who was here actually before me, did develop 0:03:42.640 --> 0:03:46.240 a better test that is still available through University of Washington, 0:03:48.200 --> 0:03:51.560 but it's only available here. It's what's called the Western blot, 0:03:52.200 --> 0:03:55.480 which means that we look at the ability of the 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:58.800 immune system to respond to a very wide range of 0:03:58.880 --> 0:04:03.280 proteins of not just one or two like the commercial assays. 0:04:04.440 --> 0:04:06.600 So I get to tell a fair number of people 0:04:06.640 --> 0:04:09.280 that I cured their herpes because they thought they have 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:11.960 it by the commercial assay, and then it turns out 0:04:12.000 --> 0:04:12.560 that they don't. 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:17.520 The fact number four, Herpes is incurable. With lots of 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:21.400 other viral infections, the body figures out how to eliminate 0:04:21.440 --> 0:04:25.000 the virus from the body entirely, but herpes isn't like that. 0:04:25.360 --> 0:04:28.240 Herpes has evolved to have this really clever trick that 0:04:28.320 --> 0:04:30.480 allows it to evade the human immune system. 0:04:31.120 --> 0:04:36.400 Herpies hides in the cells of the nervous system, and 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:40.960 the nervous system is what's called immuneprivileged site. Is that 0:04:41.000 --> 0:04:44.560 there's not a lot of immune cells there, so it 0:04:44.680 --> 0:04:48.440 is able to hide in a form that's inactive. It's 0:04:48.480 --> 0:04:52.880 called latent. It infects bundles of nerves that are along 0:04:53.200 --> 0:04:57.160 your spinal accord, and at that point it doesn't elicit 0:04:57.240 --> 0:04:59.040 much of an immune response. 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:02.280 And there are just kind of hangs out, not eliciting 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:04.680 an immune response, and then comes out of hiding at 0:05:04.680 --> 0:05:05.320 some point later. 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:10.200 It elicits fair little immune response when it's there, and 0:05:10.240 --> 0:05:14.760 then in response to triggers that are not very well defined, 0:05:16.080 --> 0:05:19.480 it will come out and make its journey back inside 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:22.920 the nerve all the way down to the either genital 0:05:23.760 --> 0:05:26.240 area or to the oral area, depending on whether you're 0:05:26.240 --> 0:05:28.360 talking about oral or genital herpes. 0:05:29.279 --> 0:05:32.599 Okay, now we come to the fifth and final key 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:37.760 herpes fact. HSV one, which has historically caused oral herpes, 0:05:38.080 --> 0:05:40.359 has in the past few decades been causing more and 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:42.680 more cases of genital herpes. 0:05:43.400 --> 0:05:47.599 And so they are susceptible to acquiring HSV one in 0:05:47.640 --> 0:05:50.840 an area that probably before was not susceptible because they 0:05:50.839 --> 0:05:54.880 were already infected at a different site. So now they 0:05:54.960 --> 0:05:59.920 initiate sexual activity and they could acquire a genital h's view, 0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:06.640 the other reason that people say is that people now 0:06:06.680 --> 0:06:10.599 have more oral sex. But it's very hard for me 0:06:10.680 --> 0:06:15.360 to believe that this generation invented oral sex. So I 0:06:15.400 --> 0:06:20.280 am more a believer in the fact that people are 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:23.160 growing up without HSV one as an explanation. 0:06:27.800 --> 0:06:32.360 Thanks to doctor Anna Wald, Queen of Herpes, when we return, 0:06:32.520 --> 0:06:35.359 we'll hear more from Ella Dawson about what it was 0:06:35.400 --> 0:06:38.039 like learning that she had herpes and what it's been 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:52.080 like living with it. Ever since that's in just a minute. 0:06:53.120 --> 0:06:55.799 Ella Dawson is a writer. She writes a lot about 0:06:55.800 --> 0:06:58.800 sex and culture, and she has also written a fair 0:06:58.839 --> 0:07:01.839 bit about having her which turns out to be a 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:03.960 subject that has a lot to do with both sex 0:07:04.000 --> 0:07:04.640 and culture. 0:07:05.839 --> 0:07:08.240 So I woke up at the end of my junior 0:07:08.320 --> 0:07:10.360 year of college. I remember it was supposed to be 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:13.640 the day of the big Spring Fling concert, uh, and 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:15.400 I just felt peculiar. 0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:19.000 I had some uncomfortable symptoms. 0:07:19.040 --> 0:07:24.200 I would say I had a smattering of raised sores 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:28.720 that were quite painful to touch around my genitals. And 0:07:29.200 --> 0:07:32.160 I think my immediate thought. 0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:35.560 Was, are these ingrown hairs? Is this some kind of rash? 0:07:35.640 --> 0:07:38.560 Like I wanted desperately for it to be something normal 0:07:38.720 --> 0:07:39.840 and easily treatable. 0:07:40.280 --> 0:07:42.320 But when you google, you know. 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:46.200 Raised red sores herpes is pretty much the first thing 0:07:46.240 --> 0:07:49.760 that you'll see. And so, yeah, it was not fun. 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:54.120 Herpees outbreaks, particularly your first outbreak, tend to be painful. 0:07:54.320 --> 0:07:58.560 It's not my favorite experience in the world. And like 0:07:58.720 --> 0:08:01.840 any panicked twenty year old, I went to Google and 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:05.440 kind of typed in what I was feeling, and the 0:08:05.480 --> 0:08:08.960 Internet immediately told me I was going to die. So 0:08:09.640 --> 0:08:13.560 I classic, and so I called the student health clinic 0:08:13.640 --> 0:08:18.040 on campus, and thankfully the nurse who I saw there 0:08:18.200 --> 0:08:22.160 was incredibly kind and gracious and took one look at 0:08:22.160 --> 0:08:24.160 the symptoms I was expressing and said, you know, this 0:08:24.680 --> 0:08:28.040 looks like genital herpes. We see this all the time, 0:08:28.280 --> 0:08:34.120 particularly among female students. And that was very comforting. 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:35.079 As well as very terrible. 0:08:36.120 --> 0:08:38.560 It was not a fun day, I would say, but 0:08:38.720 --> 0:08:42.640 I got incredible medical care. And yeah, I would give 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:45.319 it two out of five stars. I would say it's 0:08:45.360 --> 0:08:46.199 an experience. 0:08:49.000 --> 0:08:50.600 I mean, it could be worse, given that it's a 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:54.679 diagnosis of a disease. Any more than zero stars is okay. 0:08:54.920 --> 0:08:55.199 Right. 0:08:57.240 --> 0:09:01.960 So the nurse, as you probably havees a rare case, 0:09:02.040 --> 0:09:08.120 perhaps of a healthcare professional confirming a Google diagnosis. Do 0:09:08.880 --> 0:09:10.440 you have a test? Is that it? 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:10.840 Like? 0:09:10.960 --> 0:09:11.000 What? 0:09:11.480 --> 0:09:11.680 Then? 0:09:12.840 --> 0:09:13.160 Yeah? 0:09:13.240 --> 0:09:17.160 So she took a culture directly from a sore, and 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:19.760 that tends to be, from my understanding, the most reliable 0:09:19.760 --> 0:09:23.520 form of herpes testing. If you are not expressing symptoms, 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:26.559 you can take a blood test for herpes, but those 0:09:26.600 --> 0:09:30.880 tend to be unreliable and expensive. So it was kind 0:09:30.880 --> 0:09:33.560 of lucky that I immediately went in on day one 0:09:33.760 --> 0:09:36.280 and had a culture taken because I was able to 0:09:36.320 --> 0:09:39.439 get a very clear diagnosis within a few days when 0:09:39.440 --> 0:09:42.360 the labs came back and I tested positive for genital 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:46.720 HSV one, which is usually associated with oral herpes, but 0:09:47.160 --> 0:09:50.360 it's quite common these days for people to have genital 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:53.160 herpes from HSV one because of oral sex. 0:09:53.679 --> 0:09:56.600 So you get the labs, they confirm that you in 0:09:56.600 --> 0:09:59.360 fact have her bees, and then what. 0:10:01.360 --> 0:10:01.560 Hello. 0:10:02.160 --> 0:10:05.520 I had a lot of uncomfortable conversations. Called my mom 0:10:06.040 --> 0:10:08.160 and I said, you know, I have some bad news, 0:10:08.600 --> 0:10:11.400 and she immediately asked, are you pregnant. I was like, no, no, no, no, no, 0:10:11.480 --> 0:10:15.480 I have herpes, and she goes, oh, that's fine. She was. 0:10:17.400 --> 0:10:19.120 It was really nice. 0:10:19.360 --> 0:10:22.600 I was so terrified and I was worried, so I 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:26.160 appreciate that she was just unflappable and she just wanted 0:10:26.160 --> 0:10:27.360 to know that I was okay. 0:10:28.040 --> 0:10:28.920 My parents were great. 0:10:29.320 --> 0:10:32.280 The more difficult conversations I had to have were I 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:35.600 had to tell the person I was dating, who was 0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:39.760 not the nicest person already and was a big jerk 0:10:39.800 --> 0:10:43.320 about it. I think his immediate concern was for himself, 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:44.800 which is totally fair. 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:46.800 I also called. 0:10:46.520 --> 0:10:49.120 Some exes just to say you know, Hey, I got 0:10:49.200 --> 0:10:52.800 diagnosed with this. I don't know if you've been tested. 0:10:52.840 --> 0:10:55.600 I don't know if you know your history. But for 0:10:55.640 --> 0:10:58.880 the most part, people were really surprised, but gracious and 0:10:58.960 --> 0:11:02.320 understanding that this is not something that anyone does maliciously. 0:11:02.679 --> 0:11:03.439 Viruses happen. 0:11:04.800 --> 0:11:09.360 Did What did you know about herpes when you got 0:11:09.400 --> 0:11:11.719 diagnosed or just before you got diagnosed? 0:11:12.600 --> 0:11:15.240 Next to nothing. I think herpes in particular is a 0:11:15.240 --> 0:11:19.560 strange virus because everyone knows that herpes is a skin 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:21.960 condition that you can get and that is incurable, and 0:11:21.960 --> 0:11:25.120 it's actually transmitted, but very few people know what the 0:11:25.120 --> 0:11:29.240 symptoms actually are, how it's actually transmitted, how to prevent it, 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:32.160 what the testing looks like. I thought I knew a 0:11:32.200 --> 0:11:34.640 lot about it, and then I very quickly realized, oh, 0:11:34.800 --> 0:11:39.240 I am very ignorant. And I had absorbed a lot 0:11:39.240 --> 0:11:44.120 of stigmatizing messages about it from pop culture, from sex education, 0:11:45.320 --> 0:11:48.080 from the Hangover. And there's an infamous line in the 0:11:48.080 --> 0:11:51.400 Hangover of what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas except 0:11:51.440 --> 0:11:54.040 for herpes, that shit'll come back with you. So like, 0:11:54.640 --> 0:11:57.920 that was what I knew of herpes before this, and 0:11:58.000 --> 0:12:01.360 so I was really baffled as I learned more about 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:05.480 how the virus functions in the body, Like, when you 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:09.040 have herpes, you are not having symptoms the vast majority 0:12:09.040 --> 0:12:11.880 of the time. I've had herpes for ten years now, 0:12:12.000 --> 0:12:16.960 and I've maybe had active herpee symptoms outbreaks for four 0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:20.440 weeks of those ten years. It's had a minimal impact 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:23.520 in my life. And that is not what I expected. 0:12:23.840 --> 0:12:25.560 When I was diagnosed with herpes. I was like, am 0:12:25.600 --> 0:12:27.520 I going to have an outbreak forever? Am I going 0:12:27.600 --> 0:12:28.840 to be in this pain forever? 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:30.040 And no. 0:12:30.679 --> 0:12:34.559 Viruses are weird and they don't behave the way you expect. 0:12:35.480 --> 0:12:39.640 So at some point you go from talking about having 0:12:39.640 --> 0:12:43.400 herpes with your friends and former partners and your family 0:12:43.600 --> 0:12:47.840 to talking about herpes in public and writing and speaking. 0:12:48.080 --> 0:12:49.760 How do you make that leap? 0:12:50.600 --> 0:12:50.800 Oh? 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:52.880 Yeah, I mean in a nutshell. 0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:55.920 What happened was I graduated college, I started writing a blog. 0:12:56.600 --> 0:12:58.839 I started writing a little bit about having herpes on 0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:01.160 that blog, and then a friend of a friend worked 0:13:01.200 --> 0:13:03.680 for women's health and said, would you like to write 0:13:03.679 --> 0:13:06.600 an article about this for SGI Awareness Month which is April? 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:10.640 And I said sure. That was called I think it 0:13:10.679 --> 0:13:13.800 was why I love telling people, I have herpes, which 0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:17.160 is a very clicky title, and then that went extremely 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:22.400 viral online. I was twenty two. I was completely unprepared 0:13:22.440 --> 0:13:24.280 for that. I thought maybe a few hundred people would 0:13:24.320 --> 0:13:28.320 read it. I got thousands of emails and Facebook messages 0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:32.440 from people. It was aggregated all over the internet because 0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:36.240 it was very unusual to see someone willingly say, Hey, 0:13:36.280 --> 0:13:37.880 I have herpes and let's talk about it. 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:41.880 So you write this article it goes viral. What is 0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:45.360 life after that immediate moment as a person who is 0:13:45.640 --> 0:13:47.679 sort of internet famous for having herpes. 0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:51.240 Yeah, I became the herpes Girl for a while, which 0:13:51.280 --> 0:13:55.440 I didn't expect, and there's some pros and cons to that. 0:13:56.160 --> 0:13:59.520 I was really delighted by how excited people were to 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:02.719 have this commonversation and to hear from other folks who 0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:05.400 had herpes who read my work and felt very seen 0:14:05.480 --> 0:14:06.280 and understood. 0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:09.320 But it was also very strange. 0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:13.120 To have that suddenly become what Google suggests when you 0:14:13.200 --> 0:14:16.120 type in my name, it adds herpes at the end, 0:14:16.679 --> 0:14:18.640 And like I would go back to my college campus 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:21.480 around that time and people be like, it's the herpes Girl. 0:14:21.760 --> 0:14:31.280 I'd be like, Hi, you've heard. 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:33.080 So I want to talk more broadly about herpes in 0:14:33.240 --> 0:14:37.760 popular culture, and in particular, there is this Time magazine 0:14:37.800 --> 0:14:40.760 story from all the way back in nineteen eighty two 0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:44.320 that people still talk about when they talk about herpes. 0:14:44.560 --> 0:14:47.400 And I know you've written about this particular story, so 0:14:48.440 --> 0:14:50.440 just to kind of give a flavor of it, I 0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:53.760 want to read a line from that story from that 0:14:53.880 --> 0:14:58.120 article here. It is also known as the Scourge, the 0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:01.640 New Scarlet Letter, the VD of the Ivy League. It's 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:05.200 like they're introducing a boxer, the VD of the Ivy 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:09.760 League and Jerry Folwell's Revenge. Herpes has emerged from relative 0:15:09.800 --> 0:15:13.520 obscurity and exploded into a full fledged epidemic. 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:18.880 It's giving chaos. It's giving panic. 0:15:19.760 --> 0:15:22.000 Tell me about that story and the sort of broader 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:25.240 role it played in the public imagination of herpes. 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:31.000 That Time magazine story and cover are so iconic that 0:15:31.000 --> 0:15:33.600 it's got like this woman in eighty shoulder pads and 0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:35.320 a big scarlet H on it. 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:38.320 The H is like a New Scarlet Letter. It's an 0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:39.880 allusion to the Scarlet Letter, right. 0:15:40.040 --> 0:15:42.320 I think that's even the title of the article. That 0:15:42.520 --> 0:15:48.960 article is the most Banana's hysterical science writing I've ever read, 0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:53.400 and they interview all these people who say crazy things 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:55.880 about how herpes has impacted their life. Some people claim 0:15:55.880 --> 0:15:59.680 that they're willfully infecting hundreds of people because they feel 0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:02.840 bitter and they want revenge upon society. 0:16:02.880 --> 0:16:03.240 Like it is. 0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:09.440 It's like a Jerry Springer episode that's off the rail 0:16:09.480 --> 0:16:11.840 on it. I shouldn't even insult the late Jerry Springer 0:16:11.880 --> 0:16:13.600 like that. He would not talk about herpes like this. 0:16:15.000 --> 0:16:16.640 It is just it's vile. 0:16:17.440 --> 0:16:20.040 And a lot of folks point to that article as 0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:24.040 being kind of this pivot where herpes went from being 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:27.920 something fairly normal and common to something that was incredibly 0:16:27.960 --> 0:16:33.400 stigmatized because it was it was so bombastic and like 0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:36.840 a cover of Time magazine that really impacts culture, especially 0:16:36.920 --> 0:16:37.520 in the eighties. 0:16:37.600 --> 0:16:39.520 Like in the eighties, it was a huge deal. It's 0:16:39.520 --> 0:16:43.200 hard to think of now what would be like Taylor 0:16:43.200 --> 0:16:45.560 Swift would have to like give a speech about it 0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:47.720 or something, right like, it's hard to think of something 0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:49.320 that's as big of a deal now as that would 0:16:49.320 --> 0:16:49.800 have been then. 0:16:50.320 --> 0:16:52.520 And even if you didn't read the article, even if 0:16:52.560 --> 0:16:54.800 you didn't pick it up, just seeing that cover, that 0:16:54.840 --> 0:16:58.440 big scarlet h stays in people's minds, And I love 0:16:58.520 --> 0:17:01.680 the framing of it being like Scourge of the Ivy League, 0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:04.399 Like there's so much in there about class and like 0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:09.400 and about race, Like it's basically saying, hey, even affluent 0:17:09.440 --> 0:17:11.359 white people, you can get this, and you should be 0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:15.879 you should be afraid, like and again like Jerry Folwell's Revenge, 0:17:15.920 --> 0:17:18.800 it's saying like, this is a consequence of us having 0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:22.960 more liberal sexual feelings and values. This is this is punishment, 0:17:23.480 --> 0:17:25.600 and that is still very cemented in the way we 0:17:25.600 --> 0:17:28.600 think about STIs of this is a consequence. This is 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:31.439 a reflection of your value as a person. You have 0:17:31.600 --> 0:17:35.240 messed up, and now you are ruined forever. It's like, actually, no, 0:17:35.840 --> 0:17:38.119 this is a very normal thing. And viruses have nothing 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:40.240 to do with your character or your choices. They're just 0:17:40.240 --> 0:17:40.920 a viruses. 0:17:41.680 --> 0:17:46.080 Besides the hangover, do you have a like second least 0:17:46.160 --> 0:17:49.200 favorite pop culture reference to herpes, or, for that matter, 0:17:49.240 --> 0:17:51.600 any pop culture references surphees that you think are actually 0:17:51.760 --> 0:17:53.040 helpful or good. 0:17:54.040 --> 0:17:57.760 Herpies pops up all of the time in pop culture. 0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:03.400 I think s A Saturday Night Live is an interesting, 0:18:04.440 --> 0:18:08.040 interesting source text to put my academic hat on for 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:12.480 attitudes about herpes because SNL has had some horrible herpes 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:15.480 jokes and some great ones, even just in the last 0:18:15.520 --> 0:18:16.119 few years. 0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:20.000 So wait, what's a great herpes joke? 0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:22.320 This is the thing. 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:26.640 Herpes is like a lot of taboo topics. You can 0:18:26.680 --> 0:18:29.399 make a funny joke about them if you do it 0:18:29.440 --> 0:18:32.720 in a way that is humanizing and informed. For example, 0:18:32.840 --> 0:18:37.040 SNL did an amazing sketch about COVID nineteen. It was 0:18:37.080 --> 0:18:40.240 about a family of the COVID virus in their home 0:18:40.480 --> 0:18:43.320 and other viruses coming to visit, and like the herpes 0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:46.440 virus lived next door, and there were just really funny 0:18:46.520 --> 0:18:49.439 little bits in it that were not making fun of 0:18:49.520 --> 0:18:51.679 people who have the virus, but just making fun of 0:18:51.680 --> 0:18:53.159 the virus and how it functions. 0:18:54.560 --> 0:18:55.360 Now, who is that? 0:18:58.480 --> 0:19:00.639 It's your neighbors. We just wanted to out of nowhere 0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:02.600 and say hello, well this is. 0:19:02.520 --> 0:19:03.880 A surprise, honey. 0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:05.280 Have you met the herpes? 0:19:05.720 --> 0:19:08.760 I haven't, actually, even though statistically I probably should have. 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:13.280 I'm oral, and this is my wife genital, please please 0:19:13.359 --> 0:19:14.040 call me jen. 0:19:16.160 --> 0:19:18.760 I just howled laughing at it. 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:20.560 It was like Bo and Yang with like a big 0:19:20.760 --> 0:19:25.480 herpes virus contraption on his head, and that made me 0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:28.320 very happy. 0:19:28.359 --> 0:19:31.280 It's ten years later. Now, are you still the herpes girl? 0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:34.840 I would like to think I am no longer the 0:19:34.880 --> 0:19:38.680 herpes girl. My career has taken me in different directions. 0:19:38.720 --> 0:19:41.000 I think the thing about herpes is that you run 0:19:41.040 --> 0:19:43.199 out of things to say about it. There are other 0:19:43.240 --> 0:19:45.560 people who have more interesting stories to tell. Black women 0:19:45.600 --> 0:19:47.760 are far more likely to be impacted by herpes and 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:50.359 to face different challenges when getting the treatment they need. 0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:55.840 It can lead to or exacerbate abusive relationships. You might 0:19:55.880 --> 0:19:58.600 be kind of vulnerable to being taken advantage of because 0:19:58.960 --> 0:20:02.720 you think that your damaged goods. So that's where I 0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:05.280 write a lot these days, is in that kind of area. 0:20:05.760 --> 0:20:08.520 But yeah, I'm not embarrassed to be the herpes girl. 0:20:08.600 --> 0:20:11.480 I just there are more herpes girls out there who 0:20:11.520 --> 0:20:14.480 deserve their day in the sun. 0:20:15.800 --> 0:20:16.119 Ella. 0:20:16.880 --> 0:20:19.960 It's great to talk with you, and truly interesting, really interesting. 0:20:20.280 --> 0:20:22.800 It's very fun to have a conversation about herpes. 0:20:22.840 --> 0:20:23.800 It's not just like. 0:20:24.440 --> 0:20:25.680 How did you get it? 0:20:25.880 --> 0:20:26.560 Sad is. 0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:30.480 Your life over herpes is fascinating, and I think if 0:20:30.480 --> 0:20:33.720 we bring curiosity to these conversations as opposed to judgment, 0:20:33.760 --> 0:20:37.840 we can learn so much. Thank you, so much, Thank 0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:39.760 you so much for having me on. It's been a pleasure. 0:20:42.080 --> 0:20:45.440 Ella Dawson's debut novel will be published in twenty twenty four. 0:20:45.640 --> 0:20:50.600 It's called But How Are You Really? Thanks to my 0:20:50.640 --> 0:20:54.359 guest today, Ella Dawson and Anna Wald. Next week on 0:20:54.440 --> 0:20:58.800 our final episode of the season, a twist Viruses that 0:20:58.920 --> 0:21:04.640 actually help human beings. I'm talking about phages, bacterial phages. 0:21:05.440 --> 0:21:08.440 Life is evolved in a soup of viruses, and most 0:21:08.480 --> 0:21:12.760 of those viruses are phages. And if a kind of 0:21:12.840 --> 0:21:17.000 alien life form was to just pluck a random bit 0:21:17.119 --> 0:21:21.080 of the Earth and look for life, they would probably 0:21:21.080 --> 0:21:22.440 find phages and nothing else. 0:21:26.320 --> 0:21:29.399 Incubation is a co production of Pushkin Industries and Ruby 0:21:29.480 --> 0:21:34.400 Studio at iHeartMedia. It's produced by Gabriel Hunter Chang, Ariela Markowitz, 0:21:34.440 --> 0:21:37.959 and Amy Gaines McQuaid. Our editors are Julia Barton and 0:21:38.040 --> 0:21:42.560 Karen Schakerjie Mastering by Anne Pope, fact checking by Joseph Fridman. 0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:47.280 Our executive producers are Katherine Girodeau and Matt Romano. I'm 0:21:47.359 --> 0:22:02.320 Jacob Goldstein. Thanks for listening.