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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, Saga and Crystal here.

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Speaker 2: All right, so we got Laura Lumer now directing State

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Speaker 2: Department policy when it comes to the admission of kids

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Speaker 2: from Gaza who are seeking treatment in the United States.

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Speaker 2: Let's go and put this up on the screen. She

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Speaker 2: tweeted this exclusive. Despite the US saying we are not

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Speaker 2: accepting Palestinian refugees into the United States under the Trump administration,

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Speaker 2: I've obtained video footage of Palestinians who claim to be

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Speaker 2: refugees from Gaza coming into the US by San Francisco

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Speaker 2: and Houston, Texas this month. The Palestinians traveled from Gaza

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Speaker 2: to the US with the help of a group called Healed,

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Speaker 2: Heal Palestine. How did Palestinians get visas under the Trump

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Speaker 2: administration to get into the US? Did the State Department

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Speaker 2: approve this? How did they get out of Gaza? Is

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Speaker 2: Secretary Rubio aware of this? So after Lumar tweets, hey,

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Speaker 2: we don't want these kids coming in from Gaza, lo

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Speaker 2: and behold department. State Department says all visitor visas for

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Speaker 2: individuals from Gaza are being stopped while we conduct a

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Speaker 2: full and thorough review of the process and procedures used

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Speaker 2: to issue a small number of temporary medical humanitarian visas

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Speaker 2: in recent days. And I'll play in just a second

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Speaker 2: Marco Rubio. He was asked about some of this on

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Speaker 2: the Sunday Shows. Very actually lean questioning of him.

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Speaker 4: But whatever.

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Speaker 2: In any case, just to be totally clear, you know,

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Speaker 2: even what she's saying here about Palestinian refugees, personally, I

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Speaker 2: would support it, but that's not what we're talking about.

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Speaker 2: We're talking about temporary B two visas that are used

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Speaker 2: to allow people to come in and seek medical treatment.

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Speaker 2: They are good for six months at a time. You

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Speaker 2: have to seek an extension, prove you're continuing to receive

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Speaker 2: medical treatment. You're not eligible for work, you're not eligible

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Speaker 2: for permanent residency.

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Speaker 4: That's what we're talking about here.

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Speaker 2: We're talking about kids, oftentimes who had their arms and

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Speaker 2: legs blown off frequently by American bombs, who are being

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Speaker 2: allowed in in very limited numbers in order to seek

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Speaker 2: medical treatment here in the United States. And that is

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Speaker 2: what Laura Lumer objects to, and that is who, by

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Speaker 2: the way, describes yourself as a quote unquote proud islamophobe,

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Speaker 2: and who the State Department is listening to in blocking

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Speaker 2: these visas. So let's go ahead and take a listen

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Speaker 2: to Marco Rubio on the Sunday Shows, and then we'll

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Speaker 2: get soccersurrection on the other side.

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Speaker 5: Why did the State Department just announce that they're halting

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Speaker 5: visitor visas for all gossens coming here for medical aid.

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Speaker 5: Why would some of these kids, for example, who are

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Speaker 5: coming to hospitals for treatment be a threat.

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Speaker 6: Well, first of all, it's not just kids, it's a

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Speaker 6: bunch of adults that are accompanying them. Second, we had

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Speaker 6: outreach from multiple congressional offices asking questions about it, and

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Speaker 6: so We're going to reevaluate how those visas are being granted,

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Speaker 6: not just to the children, but how those visas are

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Speaker 6: being granted to the people who are accompanying them, and,

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Speaker 6: by the way, to some of the organizations that are

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Speaker 6: facilitating it. There is evidence been presented to us by

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Speaker 6: numerous congressional offices that some of the organizations bragging about

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Speaker 6: and involved in acquiring these visas have strong links to

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Speaker 6: terrorist groups like Hamas, and so we are not going

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Speaker 6: to be in partnership with groups that are friendly with Hamas.

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Speaker 6: So we need it. We're going to pause those visas.

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Speaker 6: There was just a small number of them issued to children,

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Speaker 6: but they come with adults accompanying them, obviously, and we

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Speaker 6: are going to pause this program and reevaluate how those

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Speaker 6: visas are being vetted and what relationship of any has

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Speaker 6: there been by these organizations to the process of acquiring

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Speaker 6: those visas. We're not going to be in partnership with

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Speaker 6: groups that have links or sympathies towards Hamas.

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Speaker 4: So there you go, Sager, they're Hamas well.

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Speaker 3: Listen, I agree that the Pals Union shouldn't come here

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Speaker 3: because I think they should stay in their current place,

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Speaker 3: and they should be allowed to seek medical care in

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Speaker 3: their own area, which they cannot do because they have

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Speaker 3: all been leveled. Also, there is a very developed country

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Speaker 3: called Israel, which has hospitals and specialized medical care. If

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Speaker 3: they really cared about Palestinian children, they could treat them

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Speaker 3: if they would like to. They're you know, open, they

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Speaker 3: brag about it, right, We've got all these five star

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Speaker 3: medical equipment, etc. The reason why, And again I looked

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Speaker 3: into it just like you did. These are not refugees,

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Speaker 3: people who are permanently living here. They're on a permanent

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Speaker 3: or on a temporary visa to seek specialized medical care,

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Speaker 3: which does not allow permanent residency. I guess it's fair

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Speaker 3: to say that sometimes that does lead to permanent residency.

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Speaker 1: So, okay, whatever, that's their objection.

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Speaker 3: But what drives me nuts is the way that this

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Speaker 3: is what drives me nuts, is the way that we

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Speaker 3: have all this double standard. We literally just let it

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Speaker 3: is really pedophile flee the allegedly an alleged pedophile flee

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Speaker 3: the country after he was in a sting here.

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Speaker 1: That's no diplomatic outcry.

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Speaker 3: The State Department, if anything, probably facilitated it allegedly.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, where's Laura.

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Speaker 1: Where's it exactly?

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Speaker 3: So what do we care about security or any event

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Speaker 3: More recently, our government actually launched a hate crime investigation

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Speaker 3: after a soldier returned from fighting in Gaza and faced

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Speaker 3: some backlash or whatever here in the United States. And

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Speaker 3: I'm like, yeah, I mean he's a foreigner. By according

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Speaker 3: to the US passport, you're supposed to lose your you

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Speaker 3: are literally supposed to lose your citizenship if you go

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Speaker 3: abroad and fight in a foreign military And now our

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Speaker 3: federal resources are being marshaled to protect so we have

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Speaker 3: not only just a double standard, but a six standard here.

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Speaker 3: So yes, let's make it so that they can stay

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Speaker 3: exactly where they're from and seek medical attention.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that there's an easy way to do that. Maybe

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Speaker 1: that's not really something you want to do.

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Speaker 4: You know what Gaza actually had.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they had a lot of possible white I.

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Speaker 2: Remember extensive medical care inside of Gaza, especially given the

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Speaker 2: difficult conditions that have been imposed on them for years

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Speaker 2: and years and decades by Israel. But they had quite

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Speaker 2: a sophisticate No, yeah, no more, because you bombed it all,

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Speaker 2: you destroyed it all. And this is the thing, like

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Speaker 2: you know from if I'm to take a sort of

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Speaker 2: like right wing perspective or channel a right wing perspective.

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Speaker 4: If you don't want.

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Speaker 2: A lot of refugees displaced, then stop backing the fucking

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Speaker 2: wars that you think that Palestinians want to have to

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Speaker 2: have their kids' arms blown off and seek treatment here.

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Speaker 2: You think that's the life that they envision for themselves.

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Speaker 2: Of course not they would like to be in Gaza,

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Speaker 2: They would like to be in their homes. But guess

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Speaker 2: what our tax dollars went to destroying and turning all

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Speaker 2: of Gaza, including as the medical system into rubble. And

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Speaker 2: so given that context to then object to, we're talking

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Speaker 2: about a small number of kids coming here, and we

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Speaker 2: can put we can put this one eleven year old boy,

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Speaker 2: this is D four up on the screen, coming here

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Speaker 2: to speak, seek specialized treatment. And you object to that,

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Speaker 2: you I mean to me, it is so depraved, It

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Speaker 2: is so sick as to be almost beyond words. These

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Speaker 2: little kids who have had their childhood robed from them.

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Speaker 2: God knows the trauma that they've experienced, the loved ones

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Speaker 2: in their lives, the family members that they've lost, who

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Speaker 2: will never be able to gain back their limbs and

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Speaker 2: their their peace of mind that was stolen from them.

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Speaker 2: And then the one little bit of kindness we have

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Speaker 2: to be able to get them out of Gaza and

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Speaker 2: get the medical treatment. And you're mad about that. That

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Speaker 2: is so disgraceful, It is just unbelievable.

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Speaker 3: Well, this was a big debate back o men during

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Speaker 3: the Syrian crisis that I remember over the Syrian refugee stuff.

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Speaker 3: And you know, the Europeans obviously invited all these Syrian

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Speaker 3: refugees and Afghan refugees into the country. Destabilized, responsible for Brexit,

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Speaker 3: has caused problems basically now to this day. But you're,

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Speaker 3: like you said, to channel or more right wing perspective,

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Speaker 3: the solution the whole time was why do we keep

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Speaker 3: funding this? We are responsible for basically creating the political

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Speaker 3: crisis and the problem here that is fueling all of this.

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Speaker 1: There's a I'll get canceled for this one.

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Speaker 3: But there is a term or a phrase come up

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Speaker 3: with a guy named Steve Sailor, which is invade the world.

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Speaker 3: Invite the world, which is basically like go abroad in

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Speaker 3: search of monsters to destroy, destroy them, destabilize them, either

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Speaker 3: on behalf of Israel or support policy to do so

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Speaker 3: and then invite them, you know, to your own country.

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Speaker 3: Now again, you know, the Israelis, out of two sides

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Speaker 3: of their mouth are like, these people are so horrific

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Speaker 3: that we cannot even be forced to live next to them.

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Speaker 3: And then the second breath, they're like, by the way

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Speaker 3: America and everybody else, you need to take them. It's like, well, okay,

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Speaker 3: so that basically you don't really believe that you just

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Speaker 3: don't want to live next to them. I support their

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Speaker 3: right to seek medical care in their own territory and

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Speaker 3: or in Israel for creating that crisis and to allow also,

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Speaker 3: you know, this is the other question of you're destroying

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Speaker 3: all the hospitals and then you're blocking all the aid

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Speaker 3: that's even coming in there with GHF. I mean, all

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Speaker 3: of these doctors who have gone into Gaza, all of

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Speaker 3: them report massive problems even getting in there. Don't they

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Speaker 3: have to go through the UAE or some other special

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Speaker 3: system to even to be able to provide it. They

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Speaker 3: lose power when they're doing. These things occur because of

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Speaker 3: what we are supporting. This is the classic invade and

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Speaker 3: invite scenario that Sailor described.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know, I mean, I think with Lumer. Really,

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Speaker 1: what you're watching.

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Speaker 3: Is kind of this like weaponized like hysteria over Palestinians

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Speaker 3: and others, where if they actually cared about not wanting

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Speaker 3: Palestinians to have to go anywhere, which of course they don't,

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Speaker 3: they support it, they actually support the mass ethnic cleansing

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Speaker 3: really of what's going on, then you would support basically

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Speaker 3: telling Israel no.

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Speaker 1: And you know, if we have a blanket.

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Speaker 3: Policy that Israelis and Gozins and all these others, and

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Speaker 3: I'm not going to get any of our more of

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Speaker 3: our money and have much more of a fair application,

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Speaker 3: but we don't. Our federal government basically rolls out the

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Speaker 3: red carpet for former IDF soldiers who are coming here,

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Speaker 3: who will response well, in some cases we're creating much

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Speaker 3: of this, but then you know, the victims of it

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Speaker 3: are then treated with contempts.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. The whole thing is cool.

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Speaker 2: And just so you know the type of people that

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Speaker 2: she is objecting to being able to get treatment here,

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Speaker 2: let's go ahead and play D four. This is a

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Speaker 2: little eleven year old boy and his family who you know,

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Speaker 2: local news did a piece on and they arrived in Atlanta.

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Speaker 4: Let's take a lesson.

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Speaker 7: You've seen Algabar and is slowly learning how to be

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Speaker 7: a kid again in the suburbs of Atlanta. He came

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Speaker 7: here all the way from Gaza after losing his legs

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Speaker 7: in an airstrike last year.

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Speaker 1: Okay, he doesn't want to talk.

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Speaker 7: Arrived in the US for medical treatment through the nonprofit

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Speaker 7: Heal Palestine. Here in Atlanta. He'll need more surgery and

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Speaker 7: eventually prosthetic legs, he said, I'm fine for medical attention

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Speaker 7: nearly caused the family to split apart.

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Speaker 2: So that's who, you know, That's who Rubio was saying, Oh,

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Speaker 2: these are linked to terrorists. This is some mass this

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Speaker 2: is who Lumer is, you know, pitching a hysterical fit

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Speaker 2: about to try.

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Speaker 4: To block their entry.

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Speaker 2: And I truly just find the whole thing to be

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Speaker 2: a grotesque and disgusting.

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Speaker 3: I think it again is gross in Israel and the

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Speaker 3: pro Israel context. I mean, I don't think it's a secret,

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Speaker 3: but like, part of the problem is that there's always

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Speaker 3: weaponized empathy for mass refugee status. But I mean, it's

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Speaker 3: almost feels silly to have that argument or discussion right

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Speaker 3: now because we're not No one's proposing that no one

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Speaker 3: is saying, well, actually Israel is proposing some sort of

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Speaker 3: mass refugee expulsion. But there's not a serious debate right

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Speaker 3: now to invite hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of

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Speaker 3: Palestinians you know, here to America. That's not actually what's

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Speaker 3: even really part of the question. This is not even

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Speaker 3: like the starting point of any of it. It's not

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Speaker 3: a realistic political outcome other than the one that's being

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Speaker 3: pushed by these Really.

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Speaker 1: If it were then way, I would be willing to

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Speaker 1: have it.

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Speaker 2: Agree, we are the ones who we are the reason

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Speaker 2: this little boy doesn't have legs, right, he lost family matter,

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Speaker 2: I believe he lost his father, like we are the

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Speaker 2: reason for that. And like the tiniest bit of I mean,

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Speaker 2: this is a pathetic drop in the bucket. I think

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Speaker 2: a few hundred kids. I mean, it's so minimal, and

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Speaker 2: this is the thing that you're up at arms about.

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Speaker 2: It's again, it is so disgusting. And if it, like,

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Speaker 2: if you don't want for these children to have to

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Speaker 2: seek medical care abroad, then support the ending of the

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Speaker 2: bombing and starving of them so that yes they.

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Speaker 4: Could where they would actually like to be at.

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Speaker 2: Their homes with their loved ones with their limbs and

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Speaker 2: body syntact.

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Speaker 8: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I believe.

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Speaker 3: Ryan also was pointing out that in many of the

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Speaker 3: cases it was a hyper specialized medical because people are like, oh,

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Speaker 3: why do they have to come here? And he's like, well,

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Speaker 3: in many of these cases, it's a very specific type

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Speaker 3: of medical treatment available in the United States that's being

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Speaker 3: paid for by donors and others. With the scrutiny of

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Speaker 3: the State Department on the B two visa, Lumer has

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Speaker 3: been saying like, oh, well, why don't they go to

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Speaker 3: Arab countries, And it's like, well, there in some cases

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Speaker 3: there are literally only specific procedures where they have doctors

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Speaker 3: like available in the United States.

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Speaker 1: That's what I saw him in his back and forth

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Speaker 1: with Lumor.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, I mean, overall, it just goes to show

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Speaker 3: you the level of which we can have just like

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Speaker 3: complete hysteria and panic in some sort of service of Israel,

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Speaker 3: you know, here with the victims of a policy which

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Speaker 3: is directly supported by the last two administrations by tax

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Speaker 3: dollars and others. Yeah, what exactly is the way that

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Speaker 3: we square it? And by the way, if it was

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Speaker 3: a child like an October seventh victim and they were

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Speaker 3: blocked from coming over here. What do you think these

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Speaker 3: people would at Oh yeah, you know you want to

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Speaker 3: go there for a second, Like, let's do that.

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Speaker 2: Let me just before we get to pee, let me

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Speaker 2: just read this exchange from Lumour and Ryan just to

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Speaker 2: get it in here, because yeah, our man has been

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Speaker 2: doing doing battle. He's been doing battle in the trenches

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Speaker 2: over this one. So Lumor quote tweeted a drop site

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Speaker 2: report and said, why should Palestinians be treated in American

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Speaker 2: hospitals for free while US veterans are homeless on the street,

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Speaker 2: unable to get healthcare. This is why everyone hates them,

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Speaker 2: because they want to come to our country, get free

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Speaker 2: healthcare and never assimilate while Americans struggle to pay their bills.

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Speaker 2: Not even Americans get free healthcare. But you want Palestinians

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Speaker 2: to have free healthcare while you are America. Last unreal?

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Speaker 2: As if Ryan doesn't want Americans to get free healthcare.

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Speaker 2: By the way, and this lady, you think she has

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Speaker 2: ever supported free healthcare for all Americans? Okay, anyway, Ryan responds,

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Speaker 2: Trump slashed Medicaid, slashed the VA, slashed ACA exchange subsidies,

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Speaker 2: and increased the military budget to over trillion dollars.

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Speaker 4: But Lumer wants people to think the.

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Speaker 2: Reasoning not of healthcare, is that a Palestinian child got

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Speaker 2: treated thanks to donations from people heartbroken at what Israel

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Speaker 2: and the US, by the way, is doing to children.

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Speaker 4: This is a lie.

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Speaker 2: The trillion dollars being spent to blow the arms and

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Speaker 2: legs off of children is the problem, not the children themselves.

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Speaker 2: Well said my friend, Well said Ryan Grimm. We covered

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Speaker 2: this last week, but just as a refresher pete footage

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Speaker 2: Edge went on pot Save America.

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Speaker 4: John Faffer was doing the questioning and.

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Speaker 2: He just made an absolute mess of his answers on Israel,

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Speaker 2: said a lot of words, said absolutely nothing. It was pathetic.

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Speaker 2: He got absolutely destroyed online, huge backlash to his comments.

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Speaker 2: So just as a reminder, because we've got an update

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Speaker 2: on this, just as a reminder of what he said.

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Speaker 2: This was his response to, Hey, do you think we

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Speaker 2: should recognize a Palestinian state?

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Speaker 1: Do you think it's time to recognize a Palestinian state?

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Speaker 8: I think that that's a profound question that arouses a

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Speaker 8: lot of the biggest problems that have happened with Israel's

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Speaker 8: survival or Israel's rights to survival in the diplomatic scene,

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Speaker 8: and many of the people who have taken that step

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Speaker 8: historically have done so for different reasons than what we

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Speaker 8: see happening with European countries. I think we need to

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Speaker 8: step back and we need to do whatever it takes

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Speaker 8: to ensure that there is a real two state solution

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Speaker 8: and that no one, not even likes in Thatta Yahu,

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Speaker 8: can veto the international community's commitment to a two state

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Speaker 8: solution where you have Palestinians and Israelis living with safety,

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Speaker 8: with security, with rights, that can happen. We have to

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Speaker 8: actually show some commitment to it.

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Speaker 2: So again the question was should we recognize a Palestinian state?

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Speaker 2: All of that long gobbledegook was the answer, which started

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Speaker 2: off with that's a profound question that arouses a lot

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Speaker 2: of the biggest problems with regard to Israel's right to survival. Oh, thanks, Pete. Thanks,

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Speaker 2: that was really useful, And all of his answers were

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Speaker 2: like that. So it was so bad that he actually

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Speaker 2: went to Politico to try to clean up the mess.

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Speaker 2: So we can put this up on the screen. This

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Speaker 2: is an interesting article overall about what they describe as

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Speaker 2: DEM's twenty twenty eight litmus test on Israel, and they

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Speaker 2: say Budhages discovered that this was and they're so out

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Speaker 2: of touch. It's crazy that he didn't realize this would

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Speaker 2: be an issue. But in any case, here's party for

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Speaker 2: what he said. He said Democrats like all Americans, but

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Speaker 2: certainly Democrats are sickened by what's happening and trying to

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Speaker 2: hold several things in mind at the same time, all

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Speaker 2: of which can be true. That what has to happen

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Speaker 2: next is the killing has to end. He told Politico

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Speaker 2: in an interview. The hostages have to come home, the

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Speaker 2: people of Gaza need aid unimpeded, and all of that

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Speaker 2: should be happening immediately. They describe that as a sharper

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Speaker 2: sponse than in his interview. I don't know how sharp

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Speaker 2: that is, but in any case, it goes on. He

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Speaker 2: says of the criticism of his podcast interview quote.

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Speaker 4: I get it.

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Speaker 2: It's important to be clear about something this enormous, in

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Speaker 2: this painful. It's just that it's so enormous and it's

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Speaker 2: so painful soccer that sometimes his words can fail.

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Speaker 4: It's just that he feels it so deeply.

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Speaker 2: He didn't express himself properly, okay, but the next piece

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Speaker 2: up on the screen, we got one more here. So

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Speaker 2: Buddhajudg sees a larger paradigm shift on the issue. Falling

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Speaker 2: the blowback this week to his response on the podcast,

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Speaker 2: he's now trying to directly answer democrats questions about his

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Speaker 2: positions on Israel. Ask whether Pastinian state should be recognized,

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Speaker 2: he told Politico a two state solution has to come

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Speaker 2: in the context of a credible and enforceable and negotiated process.

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Speaker 2: I think if you just try to do it unilaterally,

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Speaker 2: it's not going to change anything for people on the ground,

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Speaker 2: and it'll just be words.

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Speaker 4: On a page.

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Speaker 2: As for passing more decades long military aid packages, buddhajij said,

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Speaker 2: we have to shift to a more case by case

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Speaker 2: approach instead of a blanket approach. And he added Nena

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Speaker 2: Who's military campaign is even more horrifying when you contemplate

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Speaker 2: this is happening with US support. So I don't know

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Speaker 2: how great he did cleaning this up. It's still a lot,

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Speaker 2: in my opinion of gobbledegook that completely misses the moral

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Speaker 2: clarity that Democrats certainly want to see from him.

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Speaker 4: But Socger it was noteworthy.

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Speaker 2: That he felt the need to go in and play

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Speaker 2: clean up at all after you know, the answers that

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Speaker 2: he gave. This classic like Pete McKinsey speak of, let

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Speaker 2: me like restate the question and then bullshit around until

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Speaker 2: you don't notice that I didn't answer your question at all.

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Speaker 4: He would have gotten away with that just a few

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Speaker 4: years ago.

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Speaker 2: No question, And now people are like, no, we want

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Speaker 2: an answer. Where do you stand? And the Democratic base

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Speaker 2: is overwhelmingly of the view that this is a genocide.

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Speaker 2: All weapons need to stop, there needs to be an end,

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Speaker 2: and that this is horrifying and there needs to be

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Speaker 2: total and complete moral clarity when it comes to this systay.

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Speaker 3: I think what they horseshoe on it will be eventually

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Speaker 3: is and this is why Buddha Jedge made the mistake

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Speaker 3: of just like trying in the very beginning to give

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Speaker 3: his guy obboldegook answer is going to be the eventual

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Speaker 3: place that Slotkin ended up after our interview, which is

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Speaker 3: they're going to stay silent. The ambitious ones will stay

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Speaker 3: silent for now. I doubt they'll ever get to genocide.

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Speaker 3: I think what they'll say is I support no more

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Speaker 3: weapons to the state of Israel.

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Speaker 1: That is the like.

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Speaker 3: Horseshoe between whatever is left of liberal Zionism and of

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Speaker 3: the activist class, who is going to rejoice at seeing

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Speaker 3: somebody like Gavin Newsom or others be like, yeah, we're

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Speaker 3: not going to support and you know, realistically, that's what

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Speaker 3: it's going to look like at an actual policy level.

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Speaker 3: So in my opinion, what budhaje Edge has shown is

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Speaker 3: the political trepidation of even trying to square the circle

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Speaker 3: by not just outright declaring several things at a concrete

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Speaker 3: level Palestinian statehood offensive web not even offensive weapons to Israel.

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Speaker 3: I think those will be the two actual litmus tests.

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Speaker 3: And if I think about it, in the Podsave America clip,

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Speaker 3: the one that went very viral was him saying we're

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Speaker 3: not going back to the pre October seventh status quo. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: that I think again is another Pods with the Pods guys. Yeah, No,

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Speaker 3: I think it was John Favreau who said it. And

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Speaker 3: who's the other one, I forget his name?

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Speaker 1: Love it, love it? Yeah, I love it. Yeah, they

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Speaker 1: were all.

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Speaker 3: But my point is that that will be I think

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Speaker 3: where the eventual nexis ends, where the activist class will

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Speaker 3: be satisfied at a policy level and in terms of

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Speaker 3: the reality of like where this base and policy actually

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Speaker 3: looks like, that's what it means. It means the special

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Speaker 3: relationship is over offensive weapon or weapons period, while your

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Speaker 3: gangsterism continues. Is not on the table US protecting you.

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Speaker 3: With the United Nations not going to happen anymore, the

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Speaker 3: anti Semitism resolutions and the APAC stuff, it's like, no,

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Speaker 3: you know, I mean, think about it in the future

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Speaker 3: at a can you win a Democratic primary at the

438
00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:48,040
Speaker 3: presidential level if you appear recently on the A PACK stage,

439
00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:50,119
Speaker 3: I would say, no, I don't think it's going to happen,

440
00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:54,520
Speaker 3: especially with the and so looking at that politically and

441
00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:58,879
Speaker 3: how that operationalizes, like J Street itself is going to

442
00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:00,879
Speaker 3: be the only place where it's even remotely safe.

443
00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:02,439
Speaker 1: A PACK is done for it.

444
00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,040
Speaker 3: And when we had Abdul sayat here on the show,

445
00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:08,479
Speaker 3: he kept calling it like a maga billionaire organization, and

446
00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:11,440
Speaker 3: I was like, okay, man, like that is kind of true.

447
00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:13,480
Speaker 3: But there's a lot of Democrats who support A pack

448
00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,639
Speaker 3: as well. But that's the framing I saw where this

449
00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:17,800
Speaker 3: is all going to end up.

450
00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:21,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I personally think that the language of

451
00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:23,399
Speaker 2: calling it a genocide is going to be important too,

452
00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:26,399
Speaker 2: because it's a signal I don't. I do, because it's

453
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:28,960
Speaker 2: a signal of that sense of moral clarity. And so

454
00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:31,320
Speaker 2: while of course the policy is the most important thing

455
00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:33,800
Speaker 2: in terms of what you're going to do, that is

456
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:36,439
Speaker 2: the real litmus test of do you get it? Like

457
00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:38,199
Speaker 2: are you willing to say the thing that is the

458
00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:40,080
Speaker 2: most difficult to say right now? And for people who

459
00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:42,280
Speaker 2: care a lot about this issue, but that's I will

460
00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:43,800
Speaker 2: tell you that is what.

461
00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:45,520
Speaker 1: That's not the entire democratic base.

462
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:47,440
Speaker 3: I mean, the No King's protest is bigger than any

463
00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:49,560
Speaker 3: other protests in the entire It's not it's not about Gossa.

464
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:51,440
Speaker 4: It's not the entire democratic base.

465
00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:55,440
Speaker 2: But I do think it is becoming increasingly central dividing

466
00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,600
Speaker 2: line because it is a symbol of not just where

467
00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:00,320
Speaker 2: to stand on this issue, but are are you going

468
00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:02,399
Speaker 2: to be independent? Do you have integrity? Are you going

469
00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:04,119
Speaker 2: to fight? Are you going to be different? And it

470
00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:06,960
Speaker 2: really does come back to that tan of Hazy quote

471
00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:09,639
Speaker 2: quotes quote of if you aren't willing to stand up

472
00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:11,600
Speaker 2: against a genocide, how can we trust that you're going

473
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:14,239
Speaker 2: to stand up against Trump stand up for democracy, and

474
00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:16,840
Speaker 2: I think that is increasingly the sense among a large

475
00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:17,560
Speaker 2: pertion of the demo.

476
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:19,920
Speaker 3: I'm just skeptical. That just seems very like defund the

477
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:22,080
Speaker 3: police logic. It's like, if you don't have the full

478
00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:24,520
Speaker 3: activists on board, I feel like they should have learned

479
00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:26,440
Speaker 3: their lesson. If you're going to get everything you want

480
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:28,320
Speaker 3: on a policy level, just shut up and take it.

481
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:30,840
Speaker 1: Like, why are you upset? I mean in terms of.

482
00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:35,280
Speaker 2: Because Sogers, it's about that signifier of you know, this

483
00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:37,760
Speaker 2: is the thing that's the hardest to do on this issue, right,

484
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:40,639
Speaker 2: It's the hardest thing to do on this issue is

485
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,000
Speaker 2: to actually say the truth that it's a genocide. And

486
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:45,040
Speaker 2: so if you're not willing, if you're still trying to

487
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:48,240
Speaker 2: dance around that reality and come up with some sort

488
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,639
Speaker 2: of tortured rationale of why you you know, they're not

489
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,000
Speaker 2: like you, they do believe that a genocide is such

490
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:54,600
Speaker 2: a thing and a.

491
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:55,840
Speaker 4: Board that should be used.

492
00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:59,320
Speaker 2: If you're still dancing around, then yeah, you just look

493
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:03,119
Speaker 2: like a army, dishonest politician who is not willing to

494
00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:05,760
Speaker 2: be clear, even you know, in defense of you know,

495
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:06,880
Speaker 2: innocent people who are.

496
00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:08,800
Speaker 3: Being I just find it very hard to believe that

497
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:11,520
Speaker 3: it is the sole litmus test for a Democratic politician.

498
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:13,639
Speaker 3: Like I said, no, Kings is the biggest protest in

499
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,080
Speaker 3: the country. That's much more like Gavin Newsom, We're going

500
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:18,960
Speaker 3: to fight coded that's not about Israel at all. Gavin

501
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,160
Speaker 3: one of the most popular politicians right now.

502
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:21,639
Speaker 1: I get it.

503
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,000
Speaker 3: You know, for a lot of younger people, this is

504
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:25,879
Speaker 3: just again where I think with the defund logic is

505
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:27,600
Speaker 3: going to come in, It's like, oh, is that going

506
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:29,960
Speaker 3: to become the single troll of the Democratic primary?

507
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:30,720
Speaker 1: Like I don't think so.

508
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,080
Speaker 3: And I feel like they should probably learn a lot

509
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,880
Speaker 3: of their lesson from demanding you know, specific rhetorical concession.

510
00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:39,199
Speaker 3: If they agree with you one hundred percent in how

511
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:41,479
Speaker 3: this is going to be actionalized and you're still not

512
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 3: going to support them, I think that would be preposterous

513
00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:46,120
Speaker 3: for the way that it goes about. And I do

514
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:49,000
Speaker 3: think that the way that the Republicans are currently Like

515
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 3: if you look at the way that people are so

516
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:54,639
Speaker 3: upset about Republicans' actions right now, a lot of it

517
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 3: is Israel, a lot of it is Ice, but I

518
00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,919
Speaker 3: would say broadly it's a feeling of gangsterism as in

519
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,520
Speaker 3: they are getting away with everything that they want, from

520
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 3: jerrymandering to support for Israel to ice. They've taken over

521
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:09,919
Speaker 3: and they're fighting with power. That's where I feel like

522
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,440
Speaker 3: Newsom's energy in terms of saying things like we're no

523
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:15,679
Speaker 3: longer going to sit around and hold up signs. We

524
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:19,159
Speaker 3: have to fight back. That is the core nexus of

525
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:22,679
Speaker 3: what the Democrat demands. If he doesn't say the word genocide,

526
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 3: are people really not going to support him? No, I

527
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:27,640
Speaker 3: just I've see no way that that's going to work

528
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:29,640
Speaker 3: out like this is very activist brain.

529
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:30,320
Speaker 4: No, I don't.

530
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:32,879
Speaker 2: I think you're wrong about what it will, what it

531
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,720
Speaker 2: indicates to people, and why it is going to be.

532
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 2: Because the thing with Newsom is he doesn't really have

533
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:40,440
Speaker 2: to answer any questions on this right now because he's governor,

534
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:41,760
Speaker 2: but he will when he runs.

535
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:43,119
Speaker 1: It'll be three years.

536
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 2: You will have to answer questions on this. And what

537
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 2: people are looking for is almost like a democratic Trump

538
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:50,680
Speaker 2: who is going to say the shit you're not supposed

539
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:52,959
Speaker 2: to say. And yes, in the context of you know,

540
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,919
Speaker 2: his fight on jerrymandering, he is doing that thing. But

541
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 2: if you're still a smarmy politician who is wrapping themselves

542
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 2: twist seeing themselves and pretzels about just this one word.

543
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,199
Speaker 2: Then it's an indicator of who you really are and

544
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,320
Speaker 2: how committed you really are to being clear, being forceful,

545
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 2: you know, having that moral clarity. But you know, we'll see, Look,

546
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:14,639
Speaker 2: I will see how it all plays out here. But

547
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,399
Speaker 2: I just I know there's going to be someone, because

548
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:21,240
Speaker 2: the lane is wide open, someone who fully occupies that

549
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,639
Speaker 2: sort of like Zoron lane and is truly like anti

550
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:28,320
Speaker 2: zionist is you know, says we should arrast Netnahoo and

551
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:30,399
Speaker 2: cutting off all the weapons, not just like oh the

552
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,199
Speaker 2: offensive ones and the defensive ones, blah blah blah. There

553
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 2: is going to be a lane wide open for that person.

554
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,440
Speaker 2: There will be someone who will occupy that lane, and

555
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 2: I think they will get significant support. It will, you know,

556
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,400
Speaker 2: and it will push everybody else on the issue aside.

557
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 1: I wouldn't deny that. I think that certainly will happen.

558
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:47,440
Speaker 3: I would look at as an overton window pusher and

559
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:49,959
Speaker 3: somebody who will definitely kind of be looked at as

560
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:51,359
Speaker 3: a pain in the ass or anything. Do I think

561
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 3: that person's going to win solely on that. No, And

562
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 3: I don't think that's why zoron one either. I don't

563
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 3: think it's the only reason you want at least is

564
00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 3: the only reason.

565
00:25:57,680 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 9: That he want.

566
00:25:58,119 --> 00:25:59,639
Speaker 4: It's not the only reason you won, but I did.

567
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:00,359
Speaker 1: It's gonna have to be.

568
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,960
Speaker 2: It was more important than what even I initially thought.

569
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 2: Maybe let's go ahead and get to this next part,

570
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 2: because this does indicate the like how the Democratic leadership

571
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,600
Speaker 2: is desperately trying to catch up to where the base is.

572
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 2: Catherine Clark, who is the Democratic House whip so she's

573
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:21,120
Speaker 2: the number two most powerful Democrat in the House, appears

574
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 2: to have called Gaza, what Israel's doing in Gaza a

575
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 2: genocide at an event, Let's go ahead and take a

576
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:27,639
Speaker 2: listen to a little bit of this, and.

577
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 10: We each have to continue to have an open heart

578
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 10: about how we do this, how we do it effectively,

579
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,520
Speaker 10: and how we take action in time to make a difference,

580
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:42,960
Speaker 10: whether that is stopping the starvation and genocide and destruction

581
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 10: of Gaza, or whether that means we are working together

582
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:52,919
Speaker 10: to stop the redistricting that is going on taking away

583
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 10: the vote from people.

584
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:57,680
Speaker 2: So she says they're stopping the genocide in Gaza. She

585
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,920
Speaker 2: joins a very small number of Democrats and very small

586
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:06,119
Speaker 2: number overall of elected representatives who have called it a genocide.

587
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:10,239
Speaker 2: Politico asked her about it. They said, you know, they

588
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 2: didn't walk back. Her office did not walk back the characterization,

589
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 2: said the massachiefs is Democrats position on the fighting in

590
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 2: the region has not changed. Quote what Clark's position on

591
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 2: the war has not changed, the Israelian polstining people deserve

592
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 2: security and peace. It can only be achieved through a

593
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,159
Speaker 2: permanent ceasefire, immediate return on the remaining hostages, and a

594
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:27,399
Speaker 2: surge of humanitarian aid to Gaza. It should not be

595
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:29,920
Speaker 2: controversial to say that Israeli children did not deserve to

596
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 2: be kidnapped and murdered by Hamas, nor she would be

597
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 2: controversial to say Palestinian children, who bear no responsibility for

598
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 2: Amasa's atrocities, to not deserve to.

599
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 4: Be killed by war or starvation.

600
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,920
Speaker 2: A secure future for Israeli Palestinian children demands a real

601
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 2: two state solution and a permanent end to efforts to

602
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 2: deny their rights to exist. So didn't walk it back totally,

603
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,440
Speaker 2: but did sort of, like, I guess, provide context for

604
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 2: the language here. Nevertheless, Sacer, I think it is quite

605
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 2: a significant development that you have the number two in

606
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 2: the House now, so again this position, and it will

607
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 2: provide a sort of it will provide a permission structure

608
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 2: I think for others in the House Democratic Caucus and

609
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 2: other elected Democratic leaders to take that position to the

610
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:10,159
Speaker 2: other thing that I think provides a permission structure is

611
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:11,879
Speaker 2: Obama back in Zoron.

612
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 4: It's a big deal for that as well.

613
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:14,639
Speaker 1: That's fair. Yeah, totally.

614
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,679
Speaker 3: I mean I still wonder how much of the NEXTUS

615
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 3: is on genocide and not what I said about October

616
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:26,440
Speaker 3: seven status quo about policy levels of offensive weapons, et cetera.

617
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 1: I'm willing to be totally wrong.

618
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 3: I mean, remember if you think words and all that

619
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 3: don't matter, do you remember how much Hillary refusing to

620
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 3: say radical Islamic terrorism? I know that was just popped

621
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 3: into my head is a counter argument to myself. I

622
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:41,120
Speaker 3: was like, Wow, maybe I'm totally wrong. I mean, maybe

623
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 3: that's the only signal that some people want to.

624
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 2: Hear, because yeah, I mean a lot of times people

625
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 2: don't really dig into the policy details. It's like, what

626
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 2: are you signaling with your language? You know, are you

627
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 2: signaling that you're this just like doesn't give a fuck

628
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 2: on Barns truthteller or are you doing some sort of

629
00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 2: weasly politician y bullshit that gives you room to, you know,

630
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 2: not piss off the donors too much and be able

631
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 2: to shift your position down the road.

632
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 1: It's matter fair. I mean, in retrospect, it's crazy that

633
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 1: Hillary didn't just say it, like on the stage. What

634
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 1: did she say? She's like radical jahadism, right.

635
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 4: I don't remember.

636
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:13,959
Speaker 1: It's like, just say it. Lady gets the same thing.

637
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 4: It doesn't matter, major fixation.

638
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 1: It was huge.

639
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 7: All right.

640
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 3: We've got Seth Harp standing by, let's get to it.

641
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 3: Joining us now is journalist Seth Harp. He is the

642
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 3: author of an explosive new book. Let's go ahead and

643
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 3: put it up there on the screen. He's been teasing

644
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 3: it to us now for quite some time, the Fort

645
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 3: Bragg cartel, drug trafficking, and murder in the Special Forces. Seth,

646
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 3: you have been making the rounds now with this book

647
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 3: with some extraordinary new reporting and revelations. But at a

648
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 3: very high level, why don't you just describe what you

649
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 3: found at Fort Bragg, the consequences of our twenty years

650
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 3: of action abroad, and what it wrought with the US

651
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 3: Special Forces inside of their community.

652
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 9: Sure, the book is basically an investigation into some unsolved

653
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 9: murders that took place on Fort Brag among Special Forces

654
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 9: soldiers who were involved in trafficking drugs. But in the

655
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 9: course of investigating those murders and trying to determine who

656
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 9: committed them, I came upon a much larger story of

657
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 9: drug trafficking and impunity at Fort Bragg, culminating in a

658
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 9: huge number of soldier deaths beginning in twenty twenty and

659
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 9: continuing all the way through twenty twenty four. So the

660
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 9: book really draws in a lot of those themes, and

661
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 9: as you said, tries to show how that very high

662
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 9: mortality rate and high rate of criminality in the Special

663
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 9: Forces in the airborne Wars is attributable fundamentally to the

664
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 9: way that our soldiers and troops have been used over

665
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 9: the past twenty years of forever.

666
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 2: War and seth the book reads like I mean the structures,

667
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 2: I think really well done. It reads like a murder mystery,

668
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 2: and then you also zoom out and talk about these

669
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,719
Speaker 2: broader implications. And one of the pieces you really did

670
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 2: get into, which shocked hasn't been fully explored to my

671
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 2: knowledge previously, is the way that our war in Afghanistan

672
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 2: helped fuel a drug crisis here at home. Can you

673
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 2: lay out some of those connections for people, because you know,

674
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 2: and I'm sure that this was part of the story.

675
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 4: The story that we've told here is that.

676
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 2: You know, you had the increase in Purdue farm and

677
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 2: these other pharmaceutical companies start pushing oxy, people get addicted,

678
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 2: then they turn to the street. I'm sure that's one

679
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 2: part of what was going on here. But take us

680
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 2: into the your reporting on how the Afghan drug trade,

681
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 2: you know, fueled by our war there, ends up coming

682
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 2: back home.

683
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 9: So the narrative in which heroin addiction in the United

684
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 9: States is precipated are precipitated, excuse me, by overly lacks

685
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 9: prescribing practices around opiate drugs. That's true, that's not a

686
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 9: false narrative. However, what it leaves out is that during

687
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 9: the twentys and twenty tens, there was a flood of

688
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 9: supply of heroin in the United States, enormous availability, high potency,

689
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 9: and my book tries to show how the majority of

690
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 9: that heroin came from Afghanistan while it was under occupation

691
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 9: by US forces, which is an angle of the war

692
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 9: that has not been thoroughly explored today.

693
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 3: So one of the things that I wanted to get

694
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 3: into are some of the really extraordinary stuff that you

695
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 3: uncovered in your book. I mean, just pure like wanton behavior,

696
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,240
Speaker 3: you know by some of the troops that you're alleging there.

697
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 3: Can you go into that, including titanium teeth for dogs

698
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 3: and eating human flesh. These have been the most controversial

699
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 3: claims you've made in the book.

700
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 9: So that detail is really passing detail in the book. However,

701
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 9: it is something that people seized upon online. There was

702
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 9: an operator who was suffering from extreme moral injury PTSD

703
00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 9: drug addiction who was involved in the drug trafficking ativities

704
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 9: at Fort Bragg. His name was Billy Levine. He had

705
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 9: been a dog handler on Delta Force, and in fact

706
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 9: he had adopted one of the unit's working animals after

707
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 9: it had been retired. And I related a story that

708
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 9: Billy told to the sister of another Green Beret in

709
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 9: which he said that the dog had had its titanium

710
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 9: teeth removed uporn retirement in order to prevent it from

711
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 9: posing a danger to people, because while in service, the

712
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 9: dog had actually developed a taste for human flesh. Again,

713
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 9: this was something in the nature of hearsay that I

714
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 9: repeated in the book. It was a credible enough claim,

715
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 9: but people seized upon that online and were saying, this

716
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 9: detail has to be made up. However, no sooner did

717
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 9: that pylum begin than somebody anonymously posted a video of

718
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 9: a clearly marked Delta Force canine or a Special Forces

719
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 9: canine in the event, doing almost exactly what I had

720
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 9: described in the book. I don't want to horrify people

721
00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 9: by describing it in graphic detail, but it was amazing

722
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 9: to see video evidence of exactly what I had alleged

723
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 9: emerge just like that.

724
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 1: So not to turn this into a gotcha or anything.

725
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:09,799
Speaker 3: The reason I'm asking is I did have some people

726
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 3: in the community reach out to me about your book,

727
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 3: and they knew that you and I were close, and

728
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 3: they were alleging that you had not reached out to

729
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 3: them for comment in some of these specific instances. This

730
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 3: isn't to put down your work, but I do want

731
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 3: to ask you because the very specific claims have been

732
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:27,320
Speaker 3: made here about not being reached out for comments, specifically

733
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 3: on some of these allegations using some of the hearsay

734
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 3: and other things, and then claiming a firing. I believe

735
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 3: of a person or sorry, claiming a voluntary leaving when

736
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:38,880
Speaker 3: they were fired in one particular case, I want to

737
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:40,359
Speaker 3: give you a chance to address that, just to get

738
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 3: it on the record.

739
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:46,239
Speaker 9: Sure, that's just not true. We contacted everyone who's named

740
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 9: in the book, or made an attempt to contact them

741
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:50,879
Speaker 9: if they are named, we made an attempt to contact them.

742
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 1: And all of the.

743
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:54,399
Speaker 9: Allegations that we make about the unit, we make about

744
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 9: Delta Force, about the Special Forces, all of that has

745
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 9: gone to the Special Forces Command with an opportunity for

746
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 9: them to comment. They have declined every single time, including

747
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,319
Speaker 9: most recently when Politico did an excerpt. We sent them

748
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,320
Speaker 9: a very long email outlining every single thing that we

749
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:12,959
Speaker 9: were going to say in the article, and they said,

750
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 9: because your comment involves a special or because your question

751
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 9: involves a special mission unit, we cannot comment. So I

752
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:21,959
Speaker 9: find it to be kind of a double game they're playing,

753
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 9: where at the one point they hide behind the unit

754
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:27,719
Speaker 9: secrecy and say that we can't comment on any of

755
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 9: these allegations, and then when the book comes out, they say, well,

756
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,720
Speaker 9: you didn't really talk to any of us. It's also

757
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 9: not true that I didn't interview Delta Force operators. It's quiet.

758
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 9: There's several who are named in the book, and there's

759
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 9: even more who spoke to me completely off the record,

760
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,800
Speaker 9: on condition that I not even described them. So the

761
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 9: idea that no one was contacted, that there were allegations

762
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 9: that were a surprise, people are just simply making that up.

763
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:53,320
Speaker 9: I don't know where they're getting that. We don't go

764
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 9: into that. We don't say every single note comment is

765
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 9: recited in the book because that gets boring, but that

766
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,240
Speaker 9: that allegation is based this want.

767
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:01,920
Speaker 1: To make sure it was addressed.

768
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 2: Let's talk a little bit more about DELSA Force, which

769
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 2: is where you focus your reporting. I mean, first of all,

770
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:09,759
Speaker 2: for people don't know who don't know where did Deltaforce

771
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,439
Speaker 2: come from, how was it established, and in what way

772
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:15,840
Speaker 2: have they been used and deployed during the War on

773
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:17,480
Speaker 2: Terror in particular, So.

774
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:20,440
Speaker 9: Delta Force started out as a very specialized and very

775
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 9: elite counter terrorism unit in the early nineteen eighties or

776
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 9: in the late nineteen seventies. Originally, for many years it

777
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,479
Speaker 9: was not used very often because of its high degree

778
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 9: of specialization and use in things rare missions such as

779
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 9: hostage rescue, it continued to have that niche roll after

780
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:42,360
Speaker 9: nine to eleven, and it wasn't really until the surge

781
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:44,719
Speaker 9: in Iraq in two thousand and seven, two thousand and eight,

782
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 9: as I relate in an early chapter of my book,

783
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:49,320
Speaker 9: in which the unit became something much more of a

784
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:53,480
Speaker 9: death squad that was used in night missions, going out

785
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:57,240
Speaker 9: night after night and just hitting targets that were believed

786
00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 9: to have something to do with the insurgency in Iraq.

787
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:04,319
Speaker 9: And that was a model that was expanded to Afghanistan

788
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,360
Speaker 9: during President Obama's term in office, and we heard a

789
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 9: lot about this when it was called by the euphemism

790
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:13,319
Speaker 9: night rates, dron strokes and drone strikes, and night rates

791
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:18,399
Speaker 9: really became the entire American war effort, and Delta Force

792
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 9: was always at the leading edge of that. Other people

793
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 9: in the special forces community have criticized, because I follow

794
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 9: the message boards, the book has become very controversial among

795
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,360
Speaker 9: these folks, And one thing that they were saying was

796
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 9: that a lot of times when they hit targets, they're

797
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 9: just capturing targets, and they're equivaling with the idea that

798
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:41,479
Speaker 9: Delta just shows up and just massacres everyone on site.

799
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 9: Now it's true that Delta Force does do capture missions.

800
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 9: That certainly happens. I'm not in a position to say

801
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 9: what the exact proportion is. But also just last night,

802
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,400
Speaker 9: I saw some comments by a former Delta Force commander

803
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:58,320
Speaker 9: named Jeff Tigs in which he was saying basically the

804
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 9: exact same kind of things as I was saying about

805
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 9: the UNI. He says, when we show up, we will

806
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 9: kill you, your family, your village, your pets, your goldfish

807
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,440
Speaker 9: was an exact quote from this individual, and he added

808
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:15,759
Speaker 9: that when the black helicopters show up, everyone dies. That's

809
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 9: coming from ADULTA Force commander to a podcaster named Dalton

810
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:23,279
Speaker 9: Fury just a few days ago. So I stand by

811
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 9: my portrayal adulta Force in the book. It was based

812
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 9: on rigorous research and investigations and interviews.

813
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 3: Seth to me if I zoom out, and I know

814
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 3: this all sounds tedious, but as you know, when dealing

815
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 3: with special forces people, they like to get into the leads.

816
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:40,799
Speaker 3: Controversy is very big amongst them. They enjoy snipeing each

817
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 3: other on podcasts. Don't ask me why, but this has

818
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,439
Speaker 3: been long part of their own community. When I zoom

819
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:50,239
Speaker 3: out and I think about your book. It's about the

820
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 3: toll that the Forever War took on the people who

821
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:56,919
Speaker 3: fought them, who fought them the most, the psychological toll,

822
00:38:57,400 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 3: and the lack of leadership from the Pentagon and others

823
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:04,360
Speaker 3: to wrecktgnize of what fourteen fifteen deployments of gangsterism, of

824
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 3: just you know, wantonly going in running missions under the

825
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 3: cover of darkness, of killing people even capture even if

826
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,319
Speaker 3: you're doing so legally. You're not doing anything wrong, I'm saying,

827
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:16,920
Speaker 3: but what that is going to breed into you as

828
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:19,920
Speaker 3: an individual, and what you write in the book is

829
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 3: to show all of these unsolved murders on a per

830
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 3: capita basis, you know, exploration of drug use, of the

831
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 3: psychological toll that it takes on anyone to serve in

832
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:33,880
Speaker 3: this type of environment. And I'm just saying, within that context,

833
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:37,000
Speaker 3: is that how you viewed the inevitable rise of what

834
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 3: you say is a Fort Brad cartel.

835
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,920
Speaker 9: Yes, absolutely. And I'm not trying to portray some of

836
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 9: the enlisted operators who the book follows their careers and

837
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 9: their lives and their deaths. I'm not trying to portray

838
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 9: them as monsters. On the contrary, I try to portray

839
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 9: them very much as humans and show how they started

840
00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 9: off from a place of good intentions, started off as

841
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 9: normal guys, joined the military, progressively rose through the ranks,

842
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:05,840
Speaker 9: and became more and more in nerd to the nightly

843
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 9: killing vests in Iraq and Afghanistan and the terrible consequences

844
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 9: that had on their bodies, their minds, and their souls. Inevitably,

845
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:19,360
Speaker 9: this is what our foreign policy breeds and military bases

846
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:21,839
Speaker 9: like for bragging and the lives of these people who

847
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:25,200
Speaker 9: get chewed up and spit out by this system, which

848
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 9: you know, it's a policy to use these just the

849
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 9: special forces groups and the Navy Seals and other elite

850
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 9: formations to prosecute these wars that we maintain because American

851
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:40,840
Speaker 9: voters don't want to see large divisions of troops deployed

852
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,720
Speaker 9: to foreign countries. They don't want to see conventional troops

853
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:46,759
Speaker 9: coming back in body bags, and so relying on the

854
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:50,319
Speaker 9: special forces to wage wars out of sight and out

855
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 9: of mind of the public is really, I think a

856
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 9: deliberate policy choice. But you end up with having the

857
00:40:56,160 --> 00:41:00,320
Speaker 9: same guys deployed again and again ten times, twelve times,

858
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:04,280
Speaker 9: fifteen times. These war zones. And that's just those terrible

859
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 9: things to a person.

860
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:07,800
Speaker 4: As you say, yeah, no doubt about it.

861
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 2: And I can't imagine what it does too, if you've

862
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:13,960
Speaker 2: killed on behalf of the US government and you come

863
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 2: to lose faith in that mission. Like the level of

864
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 2: moral injury and the level of nihilism that that would

865
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:26,399
Speaker 2: instill in you, I, you know, is beyond fathoming. I'd

866
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:28,720
Speaker 2: love for you to take us through a specific example

867
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:31,279
Speaker 2: here if we can zoom into the micro just so

868
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 2: people can get a sense of some of the you know,

869
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 2: the murders that you detail. One consistent theme also is

870
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 2: the lack of accountability, because these guys are so valuable

871
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:47,240
Speaker 2: to the US government and probably know so many things

872
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:49,399
Speaker 2: that they don't want coming forward as well. So that's

873
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:51,600
Speaker 2: another significant piece of the story that you're telling here.

874
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:56,759
Speaker 2: But tell us about the beheading of Enrique Roman Martinez,

875
00:41:57,040 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 2: which is one of the stories that you detail in

876
00:41:59,200 --> 00:41:59,520
Speaker 2: the book.

877
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 9: Yes, one of the strangest episodes of this spate of

878
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 9: murders at Fort Bragg was the death of Enrique Roman Martinez.

879
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:09,760
Speaker 9: He was a little bit different from my other subjects.

880
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:12,359
Speaker 9: He was a very young soldier in the conventional Army

881
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:16,440
Speaker 9: in the eighty second Airborne Division. He disappeared on a

882
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 9: camping trip with several of his fellow soldiers from Fort Bragg,

883
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 9: who say who told police the next day that they

884
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 9: just woke up and he was gone. By the way

885
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:28,600
Speaker 9: Enrique Roman Martinez, although by all accounts he was a

886
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:31,919
Speaker 9: nice kid, he was dealing drugs on Fort Bragg. In fact,

887
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 9: he was deeply involved in that world. He was selling

888
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 9: psychedelic drugs in particular out of his barracks room. And

889
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:42,799
Speaker 9: so that was an important detail because that same night,

890
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:44,719
Speaker 9: the night they went on a camping trip, he also

891
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 9: took a large dose of LSD and was suffering a

892
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:51,360
Speaker 9: bad trip. That was the last thing that his friends

893
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 9: knew of him. They said they woke up the next

894
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 9: morning he was gone. However, a couple of days later,

895
00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:00,920
Speaker 9: his decapitated head washed ashore on the beach where they

896
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 9: had been camping, or nearby on a nearby island, showing

897
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:09,440
Speaker 9: that he had been murdered. Several medical examiners determined that

898
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:11,880
Speaker 9: his head had been chopped off with a hatchet or

899
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 9: axe or some other kind of heavy and sharp hand tool.

900
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:18,040
Speaker 9: It is one of the most mysterious and baffling cases

901
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:23,120
Speaker 9: in the Annals of Military Crime, and I devote two

902
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:27,759
Speaker 9: chapters dedicated to getting to the bottom of this mysterious case,

903
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,960
Speaker 9: which almost ends up being like an episode of the

904
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:33,359
Speaker 9: X Files more than some of the you know, sort

905
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:38,040
Speaker 9: of like mafia style crime that the other murders were

906
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:41,880
Speaker 9: characterized by. So the case of Enrique Roman Martinez is

907
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 9: in the mix and all of this, and I hope

908
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 9: that my book will provide the definitive account of what's

909
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 9: known of his murder today.

910
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:51,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's actually an interesting question.

911
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:53,400
Speaker 3: What was your goal in writing the book, Seth There

912
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 3: seems to be this theory amongst these former four Brag

913
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,440
Speaker 3: guys like he wanted to embarrass us or any of that.

914
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:01,359
Speaker 3: I mean, knowing you a little bit, I don't think

915
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 3: that was really your goal at all, outside of being

916
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:06,959
Speaker 3: journalistically interesting. Were there any policy takeaways that you would

917
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:08,359
Speaker 3: have liked to see as a result of the book.

918
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:11,840
Speaker 9: Yes, there certainly were policy takeaways that I came to,

919
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:14,959
Speaker 9: but originally know that wasn't my intention. I certainly didn't

920
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:17,480
Speaker 9: set out to write a book about policy. I really

921
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:19,320
Speaker 9: wanted to get to the bottom of the murders of

922
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 9: Billy Levine. And Timothy Dumas that took place on for

923
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:25,160
Speaker 9: brag that was fundamentally my goal, that drove the whole

924
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 9: project from the beginning to end. But in order to

925
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 9: understand those two men and what they were up to,

926
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:34,880
Speaker 9: it was necessary to delve into their respective lengthy military

927
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:37,960
Speaker 9: histories and provide the context for the wars they fought in.

928
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 9: And in doing so, I'm not going to sugarcoat what

929
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 9: these wars have been all about or what the unit

930
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 9: is like. And so regarding policy changes that I would

931
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:53,239
Speaker 9: like to see, there are many. I think our militaries

932
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 9: in deep, deep need of reform. Really, the most fundamental

933
00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:00,319
Speaker 9: policy change wouldn't be directly to change any think about

934
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:02,839
Speaker 9: the military so much is to wind down all these

935
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:05,520
Speaker 9: foreign wars and not have the need to have these

936
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:09,160
Speaker 9: small units going out and doing assassination and abduction missions

937
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:11,800
Speaker 9: almost every night, which by the way, they continue to

938
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:15,440
Speaker 9: do in a Rock and Syria with virtually no media

939
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:19,319
Speaker 9: coverage of it and very little oversight from the Trump administration.

940
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:23,359
Speaker 9: So foreign policy changes I think are more vital than

941
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:26,440
Speaker 9: specific technical changes to the structure of the military. But

942
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 9: down there you could also you could also advocate for

943
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:32,920
Speaker 9: certain policy changes I think the use of special forces

944
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:35,320
Speaker 9: should be de emphasized. I don't think it's a I

945
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:39,480
Speaker 9: don't think it's a successful strategic model. The idea that

946
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:43,279
Speaker 9: we're going to use elite troops, intelligence agencies, you know,

947
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:47,360
Speaker 9: the air force, and the surveillance apparatus, proxy forces, you know,

948
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 9: this whole model of war fighting that developed under the

949
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:53,719
Speaker 9: Obama administration I think has been a total failure. And

950
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:58,280
Speaker 9: so you know, moving towards a more conventional military, winding

951
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:00,839
Speaker 9: down foreign wars. I think those are the two most

952
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 9: critical things that would alleviate some of the some of

953
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:06,920
Speaker 9: the criminality and mortality we've seen a basis like Fort

954
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:08,759
Speaker 9: Bragg and also fur Hood and other bases too.

955
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:13,320
Speaker 2: Really well said, President Trump has increased the defense budget,

956
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:16,080
Speaker 2: of course most presidents do, and it's now over a

957
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:17,360
Speaker 2: trillion dollars.

958
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:21,440
Speaker 4: How how effective is our military? How capable are they?

959
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 9: I think people complacently assume that because we spend a

960
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:28,719
Speaker 9: trillion dollars in our military every year, that we must have,

961
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 9: you know, the greatest fighting for us on earth, And

962
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:34,360
Speaker 9: that's just not true anymore. The military spending is so

963
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:39,200
Speaker 9: incredibly outrageously wasteful that it's hard to see where all

964
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 9: the money goes when you're actually looking at the military.

965
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 9: You know, I was at Trump's military parade not too

966
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:49,160
Speaker 9: long ago covering that, and it did not look like

967
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:51,719
Speaker 9: a force that a trillion dollars had been spent on

968
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:55,080
Speaker 9: by any means. You know, a lot of the armored vehicles,

969
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:58,760
Speaker 9: all of the military's workhorse armored vehicles, are so badly

970
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:01,360
Speaker 9: out of date, forty fifty years old in some cases.

971
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 9: You know, the black Hawk helicopter is performing really poorly.

972
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:08,760
Speaker 9: There's been an incredible number of helicopter crashes recently. Another

973
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:12,800
Speaker 9: subject that's been under reported, but it culminated in the

974
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:16,000
Speaker 9: crash of that Army black Hawk helicopter with a Regional

975
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:19,520
Speaker 9: jetliner over the Botomac River earlier in January. That was

976
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:23,040
Speaker 9: symptomatic of all these crashes that are taking place. And

977
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:25,719
Speaker 9: the military is struggling with recruiting. All of twenty twenty

978
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:28,240
Speaker 9: five was a little better than past years, but it's shrinking.

979
00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:31,680
Speaker 9: It's at the smallest size ever. I really call into

980
00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:36,360
Speaker 9: question whether the Army is even capable of fulfilling you know,

981
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:38,880
Speaker 9: it's core mission. If if a division needed to be

982
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 9: deployed on sudden notice or something like that because of

983
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:45,960
Speaker 9: the institutional decline the scene a basis like Fort Bragg,

984
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:49,360
Speaker 9: and I really think that, you know, the national defense

985
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:52,160
Speaker 9: budget has got to be rained in because that spending

986
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:54,439
Speaker 9: is not going where it needs to go. I don't

987
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:57,360
Speaker 9: know where it's going, but you know, we saw earlier

988
00:47:57,360 --> 00:47:59,799
Speaker 9: in this year the US Navy went head to head

989
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:02,440
Speaker 9: with who these I don't know what their military budget is,

990
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:04,960
Speaker 9: but that's a country that's that makes that makes Haiti

991
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:09,200
Speaker 9: look relatively affluent, and the who theis arguably prevail that

992
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 9: directation with the US Navy over the over the straight

993
00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:16,560
Speaker 9: uh controlling access to the red seat. I mean, that

994
00:48:16,719 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 9: was just such a pathetic performance that the military turned in.

995
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:25,040
Speaker 9: That's another you know, uh symptom or another manifestation of

996
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:28,399
Speaker 9: the weakness and decline that that that we have seen

997
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:31,600
Speaker 9: in the military and are seen despite this gargantuan spending.

998
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, not only not only do you not know

999
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 2: where that money, apparently know what knows where that money

1000
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 2: goes given the fact that the Pentagon is you know,

1001
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:41,879
Speaker 2: can't pass a budget, can't pass an audit, and can't

1002
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:44,480
Speaker 2: account for significant portions of their budget.

1003
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:48,880
Speaker 9: Right and more and more things are being written to

1004
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:52,200
Speaker 9: like the laws that provide aid to Ukraine. It's written

1005
00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:56,239
Speaker 9: into those laws that that that that spending can't ever

1006
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:59,520
Speaker 9: be audited, which is just crazy. You know, they're making

1007
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:02,360
Speaker 9: sure that the like Cigar, which cityed retrospective the Special

1008
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:08,640
Speaker 9: Inspector Jennifer Afghanistan Reconstruction provided some clarity and some limited

1009
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:12,800
Speaker 9: accountability for how the war in Afghanistan was waste. And

1010
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:15,160
Speaker 9: there's actually provisions of law that make sure that we'll

1011
00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:17,319
Speaker 9: never learn that same kind of information about the war.

1012
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:20,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're s Sigar was one of the most important

1013
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:24,800
Speaker 3: journalistic resources in Washington. I actually think it was critical

1014
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:27,759
Speaker 3: in eroding support for the war in Afghanistan because people

1015
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:30,800
Speaker 3: just cover their claims, and we did it for years

1016
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:31,320
Speaker 3: and years.

1017
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:32,640
Speaker 1: Always the stories that.

1018
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:34,919
Speaker 3: We wrote on it would go viral because people saw

1019
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:36,759
Speaker 3: how much of a waste it was. We don't have

1020
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:39,400
Speaker 3: a single clue, even though it's a similar amount of

1021
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:42,080
Speaker 3: money that we've sent over to Ukraine. Seth, I could

1022
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:43,480
Speaker 3: talk to you all day, man, Thank you so much

1023
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 3: for joining us. Congratulations on the book. We hope everybody

1024
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:47,800
Speaker 3: goes and buys. We're going to link down in the description.

1025
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:50,080
Speaker 4: Thank you, Seth, Thank you guys for having me.

1026
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:52,200
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for watching guys, we appreciate it. We're

1027
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:53,680
Speaker 1: gonna have a great show for it. Buddy tomorrow, See

1028
00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:53,920
Speaker 1: you then,