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Speaker 1: Coming up on You Need Therapy.

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Speaker 2: Confidence and empowerment are very quiet. I think fear and

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Speaker 2: insecurity are very loud. I started to realize that not

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Speaker 2: being an expert isn't a liability, it's a real gift.

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Speaker 3: If we don't know something about ourselves at this point

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Speaker 3: in our life, it's probably because it's uncomfortable to know.

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Speaker 2: If you can die before you die, then you can

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Speaker 2: really live. There's a wisdom at death's door. I thought

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Speaker 2: I was insane, Yeah, and I didn't know what to

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Speaker 2: do because there was no internet.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, man, I'm like, I feel like everything

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Speaker 3: is hard.

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Speaker 1: Hey, y'all, my name is Kat. I'm a human first

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Speaker 1: and a licensed therapist second. And right now I'm inviting

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Speaker 1: you into conversations that I hope encourage you to become

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Speaker 1: more curious and less judgmental about yourself, others, and the

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Speaker 1: world around you. Welcome to You Need Therapy, y'all. You

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Speaker 1: are in for such a treat today. I have been

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Speaker 1: waiting to share this episode with you for weeks and

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Speaker 1: I have a friend and fellow therapist, Courtney Grimes on

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Speaker 1: to talk to you guys, And really, I had this

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Speaker 1: conversation for myself because it all started when she said

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Speaker 1: something on a trip that we had gone on with

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Speaker 1: a couple other therapists to tour some treatment centers. She

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Speaker 1: said something and it clocked in my brain and I

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Speaker 1: couldn't stop thinking about it, and I said to myself,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to have you on the podcast because We're

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Speaker 1: going to have this conversation for everybody to hear, because

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Speaker 1: I know it will be fruitful and I know it

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Speaker 1: will be helpful. So I could talk about Courtney for

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Speaker 1: hours and how wonderful she is and how accomplished she is,

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Speaker 1: and how smart she is and how impactful she has

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Speaker 1: been in the world. But what I'm gonna do is

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Speaker 1: let her show you that through all of the amazing

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Speaker 1: things that she says. During this episode, I was writing

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Speaker 1: down note after note when we were speaking like I

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Speaker 1: could not I felt like I couldn't make eye contact

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Speaker 1: with her because I kept being like, we have to

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Speaker 1: write this down. I have to write this down because

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Speaker 1: she says so many things that are so important and

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Speaker 1: that made like fireworks go off in my head. She's

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Speaker 1: just awesome. You can tell she was created to be

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Speaker 1: doing the work she's doing, and I feel like I

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Speaker 1: am rambling on like I'm like part of the Courtney

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Speaker 1: Grams fan Club, and maybe I am, and maybe I'm

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Speaker 1: going to be the president. So if anybody after this

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Speaker 1: episode wants to join the fan club, all the other

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Speaker 1: spots are open. I'm sure Courtney would love that. But

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Speaker 1: one thing I do want to mention before I introduce

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Speaker 1: our conversation is a program she has created called the Collective.

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Speaker 1: It offers a new level of care for treatment, which

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Speaker 1: is called extended Outpatient, and it focuses on something that

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Speaker 1: gets left out quite a bit when it comes to

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Speaker 1: treatment and recovery and therapy and all that comes with that,

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Speaker 1: And we talked about that in the episode, so you'll

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Speaker 1: hear us. But it is such a cool program. It

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Speaker 1: has come and been developed out of experience finding what's

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Speaker 1: not working and finding what's missing and then filling in

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Speaker 1: those holes. And if you guys hear us talk about

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Speaker 1: it and you want to know more, you can find

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Speaker 1: out more by going to my collectivecare dot com. I

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Speaker 1: will also put links to everything you need to know

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Speaker 1: about Courtney and everything you need to know about the

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Speaker 1: Collective in the show notes, So if you want to

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Speaker 1: learn more about that, just click on the show notes.

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Speaker 1: Click on those links, they'll be there for you. I

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Speaker 1: highly recommend being a part of anything Courtney does, anything

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Speaker 1: she touches, honestly. So I want to say thank you

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Speaker 1: Courtney for this conversation because it is probably one of

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Speaker 1: my favorites that I've had when it comes to the podcast.

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Speaker 1: So without any more of my fangirling, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: just let you guys hear all that Courtney had to

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Speaker 1: say and all that I had to say about what

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Speaker 1: Courtney had to say. Here's my conversation with Courtney Grimes. Courtney, Hi, Hi.

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Speaker 1: I like to start. I started this last year with

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Speaker 1: a couple of people because introductions can be awkward and

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Speaker 1: uncomfortable for myself and other people. So I like to

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Speaker 1: hear what people would like to be introduced as if

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Speaker 1: I could not use your job title.

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Speaker 2: Interesting question like how.

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Speaker 1: Would you want me to introduce you to a group

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Speaker 1: whether you're speaking or like you're at a dinner party.

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Speaker 1: And I'm like, this is Courtney. She is blank, but

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Speaker 1: I cannot say she is a therapist.

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Speaker 2: You would say this is Courtney and she gets paid

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Speaker 2: to make people cry and watch them, but that's your job.

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Speaker 2: So who who?

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Speaker 1: How do you want people to know you outside of that?

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Speaker 2: Outside of that, I would say, big spirit, big thinker,

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Speaker 2: sort of a global worldview kind of person, super open,

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Speaker 2: don't meet strangers.

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Speaker 1: You don't meet strangers.

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Speaker 2: I love humans and I kind of hate us at

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Speaker 2: the same time. But I love us. We're great. We're great.

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Speaker 2: So I am a I like to think of myself

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Speaker 2: as a collector of human narratives.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I like that you said big thinker, because you are.

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Speaker 1: And I like that you said. Did you say I

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Speaker 1: don't mean a stranger? You don't. You're like friends with

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Speaker 1: literally anybody that even makes a glance at you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we're all the same.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're like, I know your story. Now you looked

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Speaker 1: at me.

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Speaker 2: I be friends. Yes, it's super annoying.

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Speaker 1: I don't think it's annoying. Do you think it's annoying

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Speaker 1: to other people? Are annoying to you?

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Speaker 2: Oh? To everybody? They're like, why are you touching my hair?

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Speaker 2: It's so pretty?

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Speaker 1: Isn't it hard as a therapist to not when you

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Speaker 1: are I'm a love language physical touch, So I when

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Speaker 1: I'm talking to somebody, I just like want to hold them.

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Speaker 2: Yes, isn't that hardist their arm and like and like

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Speaker 2: scratch their back. Everyone's like, this is this is an efficult? Yeah? Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you didn't ask for consent, You're like, I signed nothing.

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Speaker 1: Yes, Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 1: So also, I have a couple of fun questions before

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Speaker 1: we get into the stuff. Because Courtney, as you guys know,

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Speaker 1: is a therapist. So when I have therapists on, we

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Speaker 1: tend to well sometimes I mean, we're gonna have fun

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Speaker 1: because Courtney, but we tend to talk to about more

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Speaker 1: serious stuff. So that we would start with some fun things.

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Speaker 1: What are two of the most important things you learned

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Speaker 1: about being a therapist after you already were one.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if I can limit that to too,

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Speaker 2: So first I would say being a therapist after I

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Speaker 2: started to actually sit in sessions with human lives and

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Speaker 2: people and stories. They don't really teach you how to

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Speaker 2: do that in school. No, Like it's not in a book.

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Speaker 2: It's not in a book or a classroom. Yeah, right,

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Speaker 2: So I think that was sort of a punch in

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Speaker 2: the face when I first When you first start out,

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Speaker 2: you're like, oh my god, this is somebody's life. Don't

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Speaker 2: screw this up. Don't screw this They're coming to you

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Speaker 2: because they don't know what's up and they need to

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Speaker 2: figure some stuff out. So I think the mess of

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Speaker 2: the human life, the messiness of it, the tangles we

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Speaker 2: all kind of there isn't ever like a clear cut answer.

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Speaker 2: There's not like a therapy answer. There's not like a oh,

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Speaker 2: here's your problem. Let me flip a page fifty in

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Speaker 2: my therapy manual and this is.

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Speaker 1: What I say.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, like that's not That was sort of a

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Speaker 2: slap in the face and it's like, oh my god.

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Speaker 2: And it's so crazy too, because you can have two

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Speaker 2: or three people that you work with who have similar issues,

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Speaker 2: but the answers are all going to be different for

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Speaker 2: that person because they're having their own experience. And I

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Speaker 2: know you and I have talked about that before too.

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Speaker 2: It's the miriad of each human experience and human narrative

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Speaker 2: is so unique. And that for me bleeds into kind

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Speaker 2: of the second big thing that I've learned over the years,

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Speaker 2: back way way up as a therapist. I need to

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Speaker 2: take up the least amount of space in the room.

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Speaker 2: It's not about me. It's not about what I think

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Speaker 2: or what I feel. All that has to be checked

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Speaker 2: at the door, right so I have then the luxury

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Speaker 2: of total objectivity. I can look at this person and

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Speaker 2: see them almost as a compassionate little puzzle. And so

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Speaker 2: my client and I will work to deconstruct the puzzle

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Speaker 2: and pull all these pieces apart and fear how to

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Speaker 2: reconstruct that puzzle to make things kind of work a

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Speaker 2: little bit better for them. But I mean, I do

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Speaker 2: the same thing with my therapist. Right, So when I

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Speaker 2: am in my fire and I'm in my life and

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Speaker 2: I'm too close to all my relationships and my people

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Speaker 2: and all mysh, I can't see past the flame. I

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Speaker 2: can't I can't see on the outside of my own fire. Right,

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Speaker 2: So then she has the luxury of objectivity. As someone

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Speaker 2: watching me being on fire, I'd be like, yo, hoomide,

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Speaker 2: the bucket of water is down there by your pat

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Speaker 2: you might want to just reach down for that.

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Speaker 1: It's right there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you can't see it, it's right there. You know.

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Speaker 1: Both of those things I think are so important because

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Speaker 1: one thing I thought, I didn't know I was going

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Speaker 1: to be a therapist until I like basically was in

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Speaker 1: grad school, and I was like, how did I get

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Speaker 1: get it? And I remember, because I was my major,

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Speaker 1: I was in child and family studies, and I remember

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Speaker 1: my advisor was American family therapist, but I thought I

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Speaker 1: was going to go work for just a nonprofit or something.

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Speaker 1: So I remember looking at my advisor being like, Wow,

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Speaker 1: what a special kind of ailien in human that like

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Speaker 1: she has all these things programmed in her head that

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Speaker 1: she knows what to say. And I think when you

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Speaker 1: said I don't like open a book and say, oh,

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Speaker 1: she said this, now I go here and it says now,

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Speaker 1: say that's amazing.

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Speaker 2: To be so easy. It would make our jobs so easy.

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Speaker 1: It would make our jobs really easy, but then we

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Speaker 1: would be really bad at our jobs.

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Speaker 2: It would also make the human experience very easy, which

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Speaker 2: is it's not right right.

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Speaker 1: So I think that was something when I learned that, like, oh,

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Speaker 1: nobody can teach a therapist exactly what to say. That's

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Speaker 1: not a thing. That was scary and also at the

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Speaker 1: same time kind of.

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Speaker 2: Cool because I was deliberating. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And then also the part learning that it's not about

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Speaker 1: me for me that came when I realized that I

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Speaker 1: am not here to save everybody. Yeah, Like I thought

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Speaker 1: it was really powerful and then I was like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: if I'm not here to have glory of saving somebody's

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Speaker 1: life and I'm just here to like help them do that.

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 1: Totally different game, that's right, Which is why on the podcast,

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Speaker 1: I know you guys listening probably hear this from me

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Speaker 1: a lot, and I'm sure you get this from clients

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Speaker 1: that are like, you saved my life, and I'm always like, no,

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Speaker 1: I didn't, No, I wasn't there. Yeah, I'm like, you

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Speaker 1: did that. You did that, That's right, And why I

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Speaker 1: so often and like I don't want to answer. I

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Speaker 1: have a segment on here where people send in questions

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Speaker 1: and I answer them, and I usually answer them back

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Speaker 1: with questions because the goal is for you to know

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Speaker 1: you more than you than I do, like, not for

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Speaker 1: me to know you, and I don't want that power.

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Speaker 1: I don't ever want to be looked at as a therapist.

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Speaker 1: Maybe in my personal life I have these issues, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, but as a therapist, I don't want to

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Speaker 1: ever be looked at as any kind of idol. Right,

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Speaker 1: I'm just a person that knows some things and can

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Speaker 1: see things that other people can't see all the time.

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 1: So I love that. And then my next question, if

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Speaker 1: you could invent a potion to cure one thing. I'm

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Speaker 1: in my Harry Potter era right now.

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Speaker 2: I can't stop Over Christmas, I watch all.

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Speaker 1: The movies and now I'm listening to the books and

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Speaker 1: I'm like planning a trip to go to Harry Potter World,

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Speaker 1: like right now. So that's where this question came in

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Speaker 1: my head. But if you could invent a potion to

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Speaker 1: cure one thing that clients you hear clients come to

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Speaker 1: you often wanting to in quotes, fix, what would you

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Speaker 1: want to be able to cure loneliness?

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Speaker 2: I knew you were gonna say that, Okay, well, hands down,

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Speaker 2: it's something that everybody feels now more than ever. But

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Speaker 2: I think that it's something that everybody feels and nobody

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Speaker 2: talks about. I think we are now in this age

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Speaker 2: or this era, whatever you wanna call it, where it's

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Speaker 2: become more important than ever for our shell to look perfect,

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Speaker 2: be perfect, be on, try to monetize stuff on social media,

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Speaker 2: like we're all we're all so focused on the shell

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Speaker 2: on the outer, no one's really talking about what's going

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Speaker 2: on in the inside in a vulnerable way, if that

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Speaker 2: makes sense. And over the years, what I have found

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Speaker 2: and what I experience in my own life is We're

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Speaker 2: all going through the exact same shit. Everybody is. It

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Speaker 2: is the human experience, and nobody's talking about it. So

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Speaker 2: client after client after hour after hour after day after

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Speaker 2: month after year, I'm listening to all of these fantastic, gorgeous, brilliant,

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Speaker 2: wonderful humans come in and tell me that they don't

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Speaker 2: have any friends. They feel like they're the only one

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Speaker 2: going through what they're going through. Where do I meet

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Speaker 2: people people don't like me? And I'm thinking, You're like,

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Speaker 2: you're incredible. How is this possible? And then the more

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Speaker 2: I kept hearing the story from all these different people,

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Speaker 2: I'm like, oh my god, we all have the same story.

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Speaker 2: I would invent a potion to cure loneliness. In my

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Speaker 2: very humble opinion, it seems to be the root of

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Speaker 2: everything else. I think there is so much happening with mental, emotional, spiritual,

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Speaker 2: social health that can be stripped down. We really really

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Speaker 2: peel those onions. It comes down to feeling alone.

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Speaker 1: Amen. I agree with everything you'd have said and what

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Speaker 1: is popped into my brain. We have actually created this

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Speaker 1: manufactured vulnerability that gives us the ability to pretend better

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Speaker 1: that we are being vulnerable but really, we are less

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Speaker 1: vulnerable than we ever have been. And I'll give you

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Speaker 1: example of oh this spoils me to my core when

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Speaker 1: people post a picture of them crying oh God on Instagram,

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Speaker 1: and I will say I did recently. I think I

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Speaker 1: posted this to Instagram. I posted a picture of me

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Speaker 1: crying after I watched did you watch from Scratch on Netflix?

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Speaker 2: From start to finish?

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Speaker 1: I know?

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Speaker 2: Were you not audibly sobbing like a baby? Yeah? And

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Speaker 2: then I photographed it and put it online just kidding, No,

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Speaker 2: I did do that.

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Speaker 1: I'm saying that because I did that. I was bawling.

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Speaker 1: I had not cried like that, because that that can happen.

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Speaker 1: That story is like and it happens all the time. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: that's not important, but I do. I have to say

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Speaker 1: this because I did. I took a picture and send

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Speaker 1: it to my boyfriend and said when are you coming home?

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Speaker 1: And he was like, what is going.

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Speaker 2: On with you?

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Speaker 1: And I posted that picture and said, like has anybody

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Speaker 1: else seen Scratch from Scratch? Blah blah blah. I'm like,

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Speaker 1: so sad. But that was not me being vulnerable because

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Speaker 1: I was crying. I wasn't trying to share anything really,

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Speaker 1: deep about my life. I just was like, this movie

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Speaker 1: is so sad, like for this show. So yeah, I

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Speaker 1: did that. But I see when people are like in

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Speaker 1: the midst of something hard, or their kids are acting up,

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Speaker 1: or they didn't get something they wanted. And never in

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Speaker 1: my life in the midst of true despair like that

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Speaker 1: have I been like, hold on, I got to get

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Speaker 1: my phone and share this on Instagram. I have my

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Speaker 1: experience and then I might share that with somebody. But

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Speaker 1: to me, it's almost like exploiting an emotion versus connected.

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Speaker 2: Well and hear what you're saying too, right, So like

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Speaker 2: if I post those kinds of photos on Instagram, what

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Speaker 2: is it that I'm after? Yeah, connection, I'm after somebody

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Speaker 2: to reach out to me and say, hey girl, you okay?

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Speaker 2: What's going on?

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Speaker 1: Versus what if I texted somebody right or called somebody?

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Speaker 2: But that's that's scary, that's vulnerability that yes to say

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Speaker 2: hey can I talk to you? I need you?

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: So again, even with that kind of stuff, when we

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Speaker 2: pull back that manufactured vulnerability, why what's the motive of

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Speaker 2: doing that? More than likely it's some kind of connection

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Speaker 2: or validation. So again, like I am finding that it

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Speaker 2: really comes down to loneliness or feeling all alone, and

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Speaker 2: so so that shows up everywhere all over people's lives, right,

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Speaker 2: and then that manifests into mental illnesses, depression, anxiety, things

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Speaker 2: like that. Right, and then we use food and booze

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Speaker 2: and social media and shopping and all the things to

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Speaker 2: medicate the depression and anxiety, and the medicaid or the

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Speaker 2: depression and the anxiety really are just a byproduct of

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Speaker 2: feeling all alone in this world. And I mean, I

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Speaker 2: know this makes me sound a million years old, but

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Speaker 2: this world, God, I feel like it's getting bigger and

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Speaker 2: bigger and smaller and smaller all at the same time,

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Speaker 2: you know what I'm saying. It's like I feel like

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Speaker 2: the two or three degrees of separation is like really

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Speaker 2: really applicable. But at the same time, I'm like, oh

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Speaker 2: my god, there's so many Like it's it's so much.

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Speaker 2: I get really overwhelmed from all of the stuff, all

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Speaker 2: of the TikTok all of this. It's so much, and

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Speaker 2: this pressure to like put out all this. I'm thinking like,

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Speaker 2: oh my.

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Speaker 1: God, like we aren't. We're not meant to have that

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Speaker 1: much and meant.

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Speaker 2: To consume the way we consume or our.

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Speaker 1: Brains can't process it. That. Yeah, conversation with somebody about

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Speaker 1: social media a couple of years ago, and she helps

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Speaker 1: me kind of think differently about how I demonize social media,

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Speaker 1: because again, I like social media, but it's almost like

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Speaker 1: these things have created problems. They are helpful in some way,

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Speaker 1: but those there's also problems now, and we haven't caught

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Speaker 1: up and tried to look at the issues and resolve those.

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Speaker 1: We just start putting band aids on them.

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Speaker 2: But that is our culture, that's how we roll, right,

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Speaker 2: And I definitely do not demonize social media. I think

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Speaker 2: there's so much some good that comes from it, but

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Speaker 2: I think, like anything else, people will misuse it like

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Speaker 2: anything else. I don't think it's any different from anything

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Speaker 2: else in the whole world in that way, right, And

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Speaker 2: I think that we try to use it like we

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Speaker 2: try to use anything else to get our needs met.

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Speaker 1: Yeah that's really it. Yeah, Well, I guess I wonder

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Speaker 1: this even thinking about that, Like if we didn't have

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Speaker 1: social media and I needed some connection, I was feeling

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Speaker 1: really lonely, and so I post this picture of me crying.

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Speaker 1: If I didn't have social media to do that, what

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Speaker 1: would I do, I would probably have another vice. I

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Speaker 1: wouldn't probably call my friend.

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Speaker 2: Maybe. I mean I grew up without the Internet, without

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Speaker 2: social media, without all of that stuff. That stuff really

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Speaker 2: really hit when I was kind of in my late twenties. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so I mean we didn't have that as an option,

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Speaker 2: and I would call my mom, I would call my friend,

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Speaker 2: I would talk to my there would be a human

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Speaker 2: being sitting with me.

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Speaker 1: I guess I think that, yeah, because now I'm coming

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Speaker 1: back to like, I do have the belief that, for

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Speaker 1: the most part, we're going to choose the easier option.

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Speaker 1: Oh of course, so we have an easier option. So

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Speaker 1: I'm going to choose that. But I didn't have an

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Speaker 1: easier option, then I would choose the only option, right, Yes,

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Speaker 1: you got it, all right, So I can't wait for

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Speaker 1: you to come out with that potion me too. We're

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Speaker 1: going to be a bajillionaire.

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Speaker 2: We're going to retire cat for sure.

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Speaker 1: So I asked Courtney to come here for a couple

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Speaker 1: of reasons, one being we went on a I don't

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Speaker 1: even know what to call this trip, what is it

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Speaker 1: like excursion? We want an excursion to California with a

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Speaker 1: couple other people that work in therapy world, and we

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Speaker 1: had a lot of conversations about a lot of things,

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Speaker 1: but we talked a lot about mental health in general,

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Speaker 1: and something that you said a couple times that it's

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Speaker 1: as though I was searching for that sentence, but I

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Speaker 1: didn't know I was searching for it, and that's why

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Speaker 1: I feel like I can't let it go.

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Speaker 2: Wow, But I'm like, oh god, what did I say?

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Speaker 1: Well, when you said, in the real world, nobody cares

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Speaker 1: about your recovery. And we were touring some treatment centers,

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Speaker 1: and both of us have an experience of working out

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Speaker 1: patient with clients individually and in treatment centers. And I

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Speaker 1: started in a treatment center that's all I knew, and

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Speaker 1: so I would set people up fur their aftercare plans.

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Speaker 1: But I really probably didn't know what I was doing

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Speaker 1: because I had never been in that world. And so anyway,

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Speaker 1: we're out there talking to either the treatment centers, the

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Speaker 1: people there, or just each other about, Okay, well, what

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Speaker 1: do we see as a common issue, Like there's so

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Speaker 1: much good treatment in yes the world, there are so

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Speaker 1: many good professionals, there's so there's so many avenues for

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Speaker 1: people to get help, But why is it that over

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Speaker 1: and over and over and over again. I would see

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Speaker 1: this as somebody who worked in treatment before I was

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Speaker 1: on the side. And for those who are listening, you're like,

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Speaker 1: what are you talking about? When I say treatment, I

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Speaker 1: mean like residential treatment where you go somewhere, you live

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Speaker 1: there for at least thirty days, and you've limited contact

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Speaker 1: with outside world, all of your vices are taken away.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of structure like that is where I

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Speaker 1: when you think of rehab, that's kind of what I'm

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Speaker 1: talking about. That's where I worked, and now I'm in

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Speaker 1: this outpatient world where I see a client maybe once,

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Speaker 1: maybe twice a week, for an hour at a time.

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Speaker 1: And so what I saw and what I learned early

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Speaker 1: on is I don't know what the actual stat is.

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Speaker 1: So if I'm wrong, I'm not. This is an example

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Speaker 1: of the statistic. But back then, I was reminded very

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Speaker 1: often that really, one out of ten of your clients

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Speaker 1: is going to make it. And I mean, yeah, it

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean they're going to die as soon as they

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Speaker 1: leave treatment, but one out of ten of your clients

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Speaker 1: is going to actually find long term recovery from whatever

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Speaker 1: it is. One out of ten of your clients is

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Speaker 1: going to actually find long term recovery from whatever it is.

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Speaker 1: That's so crazy to me because these clients that I'm

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Speaker 1: working with, more than ten percent of them leave treatment

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Speaker 1: being so excited to go out and have this new experience.

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Speaker 1: They're so excited about finally liking themselves. And I can't

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Speaker 1: wait to actually go back to school and get a

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Speaker 1: new job or I can't wait to be in healthy

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Speaker 1: relate like so excited. And if I went back and

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Speaker 1: looked at all the clients from treatment that I had,

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Speaker 1: even the ones that I was like that one's going

435
00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:04,160
Speaker 1: to make it that they're going to make it relapse yep.

436
00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:08,240
Speaker 1: So I want you to tell me where this sentence

437
00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:10,919
Speaker 1: in the real world. No one cares about your recovery.

438
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:12,920
Speaker 1: Where does that come from? Because I know it doesn't

439
00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:15,120
Speaker 1: come from a place of like I hate people.

440
00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:17,320
Speaker 2: No, not at all. It actually comes from a place

441
00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:21,199
Speaker 2: of experience. So about twenty years ago, I started a

442
00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:24,399
Speaker 2: pretty brutal eating disorder recovery. I was pretty sick for

443
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,679
Speaker 2: a while and started my recovery process. And what I

444
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:30,560
Speaker 2: noticed when I got I don't want to say like

445
00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:32,239
Speaker 2: got through with the process, but you start to kind

446
00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:34,280
Speaker 2: of come out of it and things are you learn

447
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:38,160
Speaker 2: all of these tools, you learn all of these ways

448
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:40,840
Speaker 2: to keep yourself healthy, to stay in recovery from this

449
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:45,840
Speaker 2: particular addiction. And I would feel really really excited about

450
00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:48,560
Speaker 2: this new life I was going to have, right, but

451
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,520
Speaker 2: then I would like go home and my roommate's on keto,

452
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:54,240
Speaker 2: or I call my mom and she's on a diet,

453
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:55,720
Speaker 2: or you.

454
00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:56,280
Speaker 1: Turn on the TV.

455
00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:58,159
Speaker 2: You turn on the TV and there's ads for like

456
00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,879
Speaker 2: fat free. All this stuff really pissed me off, and

457
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:05,359
Speaker 2: I'd been like this, how am I supposed to stay

458
00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:08,560
Speaker 2: recovered from an eating disorder when all of the stuff

459
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:10,719
Speaker 2: is around me? And then it would like blow up

460
00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,480
Speaker 2: my relationships because I would get mad at my roommate,

461
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:15,480
Speaker 2: where I get angry with my mom and pick fights

462
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:17,080
Speaker 2: with the mom. You shouldn't be doing that, and oh

463
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,919
Speaker 2: my gosh, these address right, And so it caused so

464
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:24,680
Speaker 2: much turmoil and anger and like unrest in myself until

465
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:28,240
Speaker 2: I realized, wait, court yo, yo yo, hold up, nobody

466
00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:32,199
Speaker 2: gives a shit, Nobody cares that you're recovering from an

467
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:36,320
Speaker 2: eating disorder. You're the only one who really really is

468
00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:41,360
Speaker 2: responsible for taking care of this. I can't change American culture,

469
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:43,800
Speaker 2: and Lord knows, I'm not gonna be able to change

470
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:47,200
Speaker 2: my mom's diet patterns. That's been that's been a place

471
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:50,440
Speaker 2: for long. She doesn't want to long time. Yeah, long time.

472
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:55,680
Speaker 2: And in realizing that from myself all those years ago,

473
00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,399
Speaker 2: it was this weird it's gonna sound really weird, but

474
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:03,479
Speaker 2: it was like this relief almost. It relieved the anger

475
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:05,720
Speaker 2: that I was penting, that I had pent up. It

476
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 2: sort of like helped all of this hostility and othering

477
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:14,440
Speaker 2: that I was doing evaporate, and I thought, the rest

478
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:18,080
Speaker 2: of the world, it's not everybody else's job to cater

479
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 2: to me and what I need. It's my job to

480
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,000
Speaker 2: recognize what I need and get my needs met. And

481
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:25,479
Speaker 2: it's nobody else's fault and I don't have to be

482
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 2: They're not doing anything wrong, they're just living their life.

483
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 2: So it was really healing in that way. So then

484
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,720
Speaker 2: fast forward to me entering this field and becoming a

485
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 2: mental health care professional, and I saw that with everyone

486
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,879
Speaker 2: that I was working with, these beautiful, lovely, amazing people

487
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 2: coming home from rehab facilities, whether it was for drinking,

488
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 2: for drug trauma, eating, whatever it is, right, And what

489
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,199
Speaker 2: I was noticing is that we're all having this kind

490
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,960
Speaker 2: of same recovery experience where you go off to these

491
00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:58,880
Speaker 2: beauty I mean you and I toured them. They're breathtaking.

492
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 2: I'm like, when where's my I'm sweet, Oh my god,

493
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 2: this lace is incredible. There's always says this out it's

494
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,920
Speaker 2: incred's gorgeous. Not that what this is so and they're

495
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,320
Speaker 2: everywhere and that just the kindest, most amazing people run

496
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 2: these places, and there is such a need for that

497
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 2: right there. Sometimes there is a need when people get

498
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,239
Speaker 2: in too deep with stuff like I did, right, You

499
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:24,400
Speaker 2: just get in too deep and you have to sort

500
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:28,320
Speaker 2: of go to a bubble, like a little safe, warm,

501
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 2: bunny filled confetti falling treatment bubble where everything's like awesome, right,

502
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,359
Speaker 2: and you're like surrounded by everybody who speaks the language,

503
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,920
Speaker 2: and everybody like everything that leaves your mouth, everybody else

504
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:43,200
Speaker 2: in the room is like, oh my god, same here. Yeah,

505
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:46,480
Speaker 2: Like that's amazing and it's so empowering and it's so validating.

506
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 2: The problem with that is is isn't real life? Right?

507
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:53,120
Speaker 2: So what I was finding is that all of these

508
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 2: people who are these beautiful, gorgeous, amazing people are coming

509
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:59,679
Speaker 2: back from these places and they've done beautiful work, like

510
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,199
Speaker 2: you said, for thirty days, sixty days, ninety days, sometimes longer,

511
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 2: and they come home and they're on fire for life,

512
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:08,359
Speaker 2: and they're on fire for the recovery, and they're the

513
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,720
Speaker 2: healthiest maybe they've ever been, and they're so excited about

514
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:13,639
Speaker 2: all this new stuff that's going to happen. But they

515
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 2: go right back to the same environment that made them sick.

516
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:21,359
Speaker 2: And the expectation is that the environment's gonna shift and

517
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:24,400
Speaker 2: cater to me and what I need to maintain this

518
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:29,919
Speaker 2: bunny confetti filled bubble that's not real. It's treatment, and

519
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 2: treatment is beautiful and it's needed. There also has to

520
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 2: be some type of ownership coming home where it's like, Okay,

521
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,120
Speaker 2: I have to now internalize that little bubble that has

522
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 2: to live inside of me, and I can't force anybody

523
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:46,119
Speaker 2: else to be in that bubble with me. That's not

524
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 2: how the world works, right. So, like I remember having

525
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 2: a conversation with somebody once they came home. They've been

526
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:54,199
Speaker 2: gone for sixty days for alcohol use to sort for

527
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 2: substance use to sort it with alcohol. She comes home

528
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 2: and came to session. She'd been maybe a month, month

529
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 2: and a half and was freaking out because her boyfriend

530
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 2: wanted to go to the Titans game with her, to

531
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 2: go see a football game, and she's like, I can't

532
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:10,399
Speaker 2: do it. There's like beer everywhere people are drinking. I

533
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 2: can't be there. I can't be there. And I say, well, money,

534
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,639
Speaker 2: why why why can't you be there? I can't be around.

535
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:18,680
Speaker 2: I can't be I can't go to bars, I can't

536
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 2: I can't go to sporting but I can't go. And

537
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 2: I said, well, sweetheart, if if you think that you

538
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 2: can live the rest of your life not ever being

539
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:30,159
Speaker 2: around alcohol at all, ever, you're gonna like really not

540
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 2: be able to leave your living room.

541
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 1: Right.

542
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:35,199
Speaker 2: You've got to learn how to internalize that bubble and

543
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 2: internalize all of that stuff to where you can maintain

544
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 2: that and be level set and expose yourself to all

545
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:43,879
Speaker 2: of these triggers and be able to come out of

546
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 2: that just fine. And don't ask or expect or want

547
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 2: the whole world to not drink bud light. If you're

548
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:51,639
Speaker 2: in the room, they're gonna do it. And that's okay,

549
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:55,159
Speaker 2: that's okay they can't. But you are still safe. And

550
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 2: so when I say things like.

551
00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,119
Speaker 1: Oh that's important, Yeah, I think you just saying like

552
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:01,400
Speaker 1: they're still gonna drink it and you are still safe.

553
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it does not threaten your safety. It's yes,

554
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 2: and it's not either or everybody else is still very

555
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 2: much free to live their life and make their choices

556
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,919
Speaker 2: just like you are, and them making their choices for

557
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 2: their life truly, truly doesn't have to closeline or completely

558
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 2: derail your own prod. It's okay, it's okay. And I

559
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 2: think that that is where you see a lot of

560
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:29,200
Speaker 2: people kind of relapse. They don't have either the resources

561
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 2: or the support or even like, in this weird way,

562
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 2: the permission.

563
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, well because what I to do. Kind I heard

564
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: in a lot of that is this belief is created

565
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 1: that safety is one hundred percent dependent on our environment.

566
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 2: Versus dangerous stuff.

567
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 1: And yes, versus safety is something that I create within myself, right,

568
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 1: And when I heard that from somebody, that was really

569
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 1: game changing because I kind of had that experience of like, oh,

570
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 1: safety isn't when I've had ten experiences where I've hung

571
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 1: out with my family and nobody's mentioned that I look

572
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 1: skinny or that oh look at this, I don't know

573
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 1: example of some kind of diet that I'm doing like,

574
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 1: that's not safety of that. No, safety is that like

575
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 1: I know certain things to be true within myself, then

576
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 1: I believe that I'm capable of certain things that I

577
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 1: know what I need versus these people are behaving the

578
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 1: way I want them to behave.

579
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 2: That's right, And you see it pop up a lot

580
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 2: in relationship, right, and this will probably be something that

581
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 2: I will struggle with the rest of my life. Is

582
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 2: just sort of that codependent little kind of twin kind

583
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 2: of kind of bangs around on the back of your

584
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 2: brain like I'm only okay if you're okay with me,

585
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 2: if you're happy with me and you like me, then

586
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 2: I feel safe. Well, that's given you a lot of power, boot,

587
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 2: Like I need to be able to feel safe even

588
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 2: if you are upset with me, even if you don't

589
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 2: like me, even if I try to play with your

590
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 2: hair and you yell assault and fire and run out

591
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 2: of the room, You're still the lawsuit hits fine, but

592
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 2: it's but it shows up everywhere, right, Like we try

593
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 2: to put our safety in other things or other people

594
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 2: or ideas or environments, and it really does. I think

595
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 2: that's where we get tripped up.

596
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 1: Okay, I like that you said that with relationships because

597
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 1: this is a little off topic, but it is on topic.

598
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 1: You know, the experience of I'm sure you have clients

599
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 1: like this where they're dating and the whole focus pre

600
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 1: date is is this person gonna like me versus this person?

601
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 1: And so you go into this this date without a

602
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 1: strong sense of I would say safety using that language,

603
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 1: or like a sense of self or any of that,

604
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 1: but what will use safety? You go into that date

605
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 1: without it, and then let's say they they don't text you,

606
00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 1: then it is in session next week talking to their

607
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 1: therapeust horrible?

608
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 2: What's wrong with me? Terrible?

609
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 1: What did I do wrong? And it is like speaking

610
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 1: an unknown language to somebody when you say, what if

611
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 1: you didn't do anything wrong? What if sometimes people just

612
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 1: don't like you because you're not compatible or because it

613
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 1: just is what it is. There doesn't have to be

614
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 1: an underlying reason. And that's okay, because not everybody is

615
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 1: going to like you, and that is just reality, that's right.

616
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 1: That's it's impossible. If everybody were to like me, then

617
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 1: I would have to be the most inauthentic person in

618
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 1: the world.

619
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 2: Well, you wouldn't even be one person, Yes, exactly, it

620
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 2: would be really. It reminds me of I work with

621
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 2: a lot of higher profile actors, celebrities, things like that,

622
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 2: and a lot of these folks when they first start

623
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,720
Speaker 2: out and they're kind of auditioning for parts, they don't

624
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 2: get it, and it's like, well, I'm a horri I

625
00:31:57,320 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 2: was horrible, and my audition made it like me. I

626
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 2: was too fat, I was too thin, I was too loud,

627
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 2: I was too quiet, all these things. And I'm like,

628
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 2: maybe that director already had a very specific idea of

629
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 2: that character and what he wanted that character to look like,

630
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 2: sound like height, hark, all of it, and he just

631
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 2: is waiting for that person to walk in the room.

632
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 2: He's waiting for that person to walk in the room.

633
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 2: It just wasn't you. That conception was there before you

634
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 2: even found out there was an audition, before you're been there. Also,

635
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 2: somebody said something to me a while back about you know,

636
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 2: in the in dating context, right, like to find your person,

637
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 2: you're gonna have to say no to ninety nine percent

638
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 2: of the other people. Otherwise you have to say no.

639
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 2: Of course it's not gonna right, That's how you find

640
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 2: your your person.

641
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 1: I love thinking about that, Like I can sit there

642
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 1: and think about that for in a while, I'm so

643
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 1: many hours because yes, for if I'm looking for one person,

644
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 1: now I do believe that I could probably be okay with.

645
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 1: But if I'm looking for one person to settle down with,

646
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 1: that means I am saying no to a lot.

647
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 2: Of other person in the world, a lot of people,

648
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 2: a lot of stuff. And it doesn't mean there's anything wrong.

649
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 2: They're wonderful. It's just not what you're particularly looking for

650
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 2: for you, yes, and that's okay.

651
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 1: Yes. So and I think that when you have the experience,

652
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 1: when you finally are like I get it, it's like,

653
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 1: how did I not get that?

654
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 2: I know, right, I know, I know.

655
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:28,719
Speaker 1: But I do like that example of the with the

656
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 1: acting of oh my gosh, I must be bad and it's.

657
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 2: Like, no, you're wonderful.

658
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 1: You could be perfect for this part and the worst

659
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 1: option for that part.

660
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 2: And it's okay, it's okay. Okay.

661
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 1: So we got a little bit off topic, but we

662
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,080
Speaker 1: do what we like about this. So we kind of

663
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 1: touched on the idea that like, Okay, there's a hole

664
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 1: in this treatment world of we set people up, we

665
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 1: give them all these things, they do all this and

666
00:33:55,960 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 1: they get out of treatment, ready to go, and then

667
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 1: it's almost like people drown. Yeahlie in your eyes seeing

668
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 1: this happen over and over and even having your own experience.

669
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 1: Going back to the idea of potions, where can we

670
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 1: as a mental health field and humans, they can be

671
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 1: two different answers. Where can we fill in that gap

672
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:23,840
Speaker 1: of treatment sets us up well but also sets us

673
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 1: up to fail in the real world? Yeah, where can

674
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 1: we fill in those holes? How can we fill in those.

675
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:30,840
Speaker 2: I mean, I love that. I think especially if anybody's

676
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:34,319
Speaker 2: listening who is in an outpatient role. I all right,

677
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:36,440
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna get on my little soapbox for just

678
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,880
Speaker 2: a second. We love that, and it's a little rickety,

679
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:43,479
Speaker 2: but you know it still holds me and say that

680
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:48,440
Speaker 2: we are a capitalist economy, right, America is all about

681
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 2: the individual. It's the American dream, right, Like you can

682
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:52,879
Speaker 2: rise up out of anything and create your own path

683
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 2: and make your own way. I love that. It's a

684
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 2: it's beautiful, it's awesome. You see people do it all

685
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:02,959
Speaker 2: the time. It's incredible. However, Comma, ain't that individualistic sort

686
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 2: of nature that we are as a country as a

687
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 2: culture has really trickled into mental health. So here's what

688
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 2: I mean by that. I can scoop you up, Kat

689
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 2: and I can do amazing work with you as an

690
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:19,720
Speaker 2: individual in the context of our conversations and our sessions

691
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:24,000
Speaker 2: and our work. Homie, it is all about you. Where

692
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 2: we're falling short, I think is a field as a

693
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:29,880
Speaker 2: profession where we're really letting people down. We're not teaching

694
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,799
Speaker 2: people how to function in a system and reminding them

695
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,799
Speaker 2: that it isn't all about you. The world is not

696
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 2: all about you. It's not all about you. You are

697
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 2: a part of something way, way bigger. And so it's again,

698
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 2: it's not either or, it's yes and yes in your

699
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:51,719
Speaker 2: bubble and your heart and your life. Of course, you

700
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:53,800
Speaker 2: need to put yourself first. Of course you've got to

701
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 2: take care of your own needs, but not to the

702
00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:03,320
Speaker 2: detriment of others. Right, So it's yes and yes. Maintain

703
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 2: your recovery. Yes, do what you got to do for you,

704
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,759
Speaker 2: and understand that there's other people with needs too, there's

705
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:11,720
Speaker 2: other people with feelings, there's other people in the world.

706
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 2: There's other people in your little systems, whether it's at

707
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 2: school or your family or at work, and you were

708
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 2: a part of that.

709
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:25,240
Speaker 1: That idea has been I'll speak personally versus professionally really

710
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 1: helpful because I was one of those people, which is

711
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 1: a natural thing. I want people to hear. Who was

712
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:37,000
Speaker 1: so resentful of the world when it came to just

713
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 1: diet culture, mentality, totally so resentful, And looking back on it,

714
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:43,719
Speaker 1: I wonder if there's a part of me that's like,

715
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 1: really did think like the world was out to get me?

716
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 2: Well it feels that way, Yeah, it does.

717
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 1: Like my family's out to get me.

718
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 2: Everybody hates me. Yeah, why do they want me to fail? Totally?

719
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 1: What's wrong with me?

720
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:56,319
Speaker 3: Right?

721
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:00,120
Speaker 1: And hearing you say that and applying to me that

722
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:03,279
Speaker 1: stuff in my own life I think has allowed me

723
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:09,399
Speaker 1: to have healthy boundaries but not rigid relationships. I love

724
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:14,759
Speaker 1: that because the initial desire is cut those people off.

725
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 1: That's right, cut those places off. I can never go

726
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 1: to a gym again. I never can watch a TV

727
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:26,880
Speaker 1: show again. I can never be self deprecating anyway, Like

728
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 1: I can't like everything's so serious.

729
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 2: I can't exhale and just relax into my life.

730
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,720
Speaker 1: I can't have Yeah, that's right. So now I see

731
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:39,480
Speaker 1: when I things that I would have taken personally, now

732
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:41,960
Speaker 1: I see as things I have nothing to do with me,

733
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 1: for example, For I think this is something that people

734
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 1: probably can relate to. More So, I'm not saying that

735
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:49,359
Speaker 1: this mom, If you're listening, I'm not attacking you right now.

736
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 1: But like, let's say that my mom was somebody who

737
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 1: every week was like which she didn't do this, so

738
00:37:57,440 --> 00:37:59,399
Speaker 1: I feel safe saying this, but like who every week

739
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 1: was like I found this new diet that I think

740
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 1: will work for you, or every week, hey, I started

741
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 1: this new cleanse or cleanse. It is not about my

742
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:14,680
Speaker 1: mom trying to fix something that's wrong with me. Correct,

743
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:17,920
Speaker 1: That can be something that is all about my mom

744
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 1: who's working on their own stuff. And who am I

745
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:25,719
Speaker 1: to say as an bystander that they're doing their life wrong?

746
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

747
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,279
Speaker 1: Now, if my mom's coming to me and asking for

748
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 1: feedback and help and whatever.

749
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:32,719
Speaker 2: I might be like.

750
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 1: I might be like, well, this behavior seems a little off,

751
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 1: and like I wonder if this says But that's what

752
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 1: I do for my job, right, That's why I can

753
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 1: give that feedback to clients. But who am I to

754
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:46,240
Speaker 1: say when it comes to the world that what everybody

755
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 1: is doing because it didn't work for me. It isn't

756
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:51,720
Speaker 1: allowed to be what works for them in that moment

757
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 1: because what I know about addiction, and I don't want

758
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:58,440
Speaker 1: people to hear something I'm not saying. I'm not saying

759
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 1: that addiction is good. But what I do know about

760
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 1: it is it is a solution to a problem that

761
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 1: works for a period of time, and then it stops

762
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:08,359
Speaker 1: working right and we have a hard time accepting that

763
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 1: that's right. So my eating disorder worked for me for

764
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:12,800
Speaker 1: a period of time.

765
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 2: Yes, it did, and mine too.

766
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,279
Speaker 1: It could have saved somebody's life at one point. And

767
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:20,160
Speaker 1: who am I to say as a bystanderd, not as

768
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 1: a mental health professional, But who am I to say

769
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 1: in that world to say, like, you're wrong, you're wrong,

770
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 1: you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong, because if somebody said

771
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 1: that to me at a certain point in my life,

772
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 1: it actually could have done more harm. Yeah, But who

773
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 1: am I to say in that world to say like,

774
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 1: you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong,

775
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 1: because if somebody said that to me at a certain

776
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 1: point in my life, it actually could have done more harm.

777
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 2: Totally, And I love that you said it's a solution

778
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 2: until it's not. I think that this kind of stuff

779
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:52,600
Speaker 2: creeps up on you, right, Like you don't wake up

780
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:54,759
Speaker 2: one day and have an eating disorder. You don't wake

781
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 2: up one day addicted to alcoholic I guess. I mean

782
00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:00,880
Speaker 2: that could happen, I guess, But typically it's more like

783
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:05,839
Speaker 2: it's a so we're looking to medicate something on the inside, right,

784
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 2: because the inside is not settled in safe right. And

785
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 2: yes they look like beautiful, convenient, quick quick solutions, but

786
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:18,880
Speaker 2: they're very maladaptive solutions. Just because they're maladaptive doesn't mean

787
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:22,279
Speaker 2: it's not working right. It's working. It's not gonna work

788
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 2: out well in the long run, but it's working right now,

789
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 2: right Like if I, you know, put down a bottle

790
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 2: of wine, I'm gonna feel all right for a little

791
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:29,799
Speaker 2: while until I wake up tomorrow and I feel like shit.

792
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 2: But like it works until it's right. So I like

793
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 2: the way that you phrase that. And when I when

794
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:39,279
Speaker 2: I work with clients who are in any kind of

795
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 2: addiction recovery process, whether it's a chemical dependency or a

796
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 2: process addiction like an eating disorder, I try to never

797
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 2: demonize the addiction. I almost have gratitude for my eating disorder.

798
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 2: It got me through some pretty rough stuff. It really,

799
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 2: it might have saved me for a little while, right,

800
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 2: But then that the addictive nature of all of the

801
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:04,320
Speaker 2: dieting and the restrict all the stuff, right, grabs a

802
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:05,839
Speaker 2: hold of your brain and then you're not in charge

803
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:07,319
Speaker 2: of it anymore, and it's in charge of you, and

804
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:09,280
Speaker 2: then it's like, oh my god, and then you face plants.

805
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:12,080
Speaker 2: So it's a whole it's a whole system. And I

806
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:13,839
Speaker 2: think to you, know, to bring it back to what

807
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:17,120
Speaker 2: you were saying before too, I will always need to

808
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:24,520
Speaker 2: maintain my own recovery simultaneously, like understanding simultaneously that it's

809
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 2: not all about me. There are billions of other people

810
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:29,760
Speaker 2: in the world, and each little life is all about

811
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:32,480
Speaker 2: them too, So I, yes, I have to take care

812
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 2: of myself, and yes, I've got to prioritize my recovery process,

813
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 2: of course I do. And I have to honor everybody

814
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 2: else's process and everybody else's experience, because there is no

815
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 2: one right experience to have.

816
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 1: Which goes back to what you said in the very beginning,

817
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:48,879
Speaker 1: there's not a manual, so God, that'd be so great, right, Yeah,

818
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:50,760
Speaker 1: But that's why when we see things that are similar

819
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:53,359
Speaker 1: in other people it's like, let me tell you that

820
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 1: how that was a problem for me, and how I

821
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:57,560
Speaker 1: stopped and why this and I did it at this point

822
00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:00,760
Speaker 1: and okay, but they very well get to the point

823
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 1: that you got it, but maybe not and that's not

824
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 1: for us, and that's okay, And that's okay. I can

825
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 1: still have my safety, yes, without solving everybody else's issues.

826
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 2: Yes, And I think a succinct way to kind of

827
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:16,640
Speaker 2: think about that is someone else's right to self determination

828
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:17,840
Speaker 2: doesn't threaten mine.

829
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 1: Oh that's good. We all say that again.

830
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 2: We all have the right to self determination, right, so

831
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 2: your right to self determination doesn't threaten my right to myself.

832
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 2: It's it's both we can we that it can all

833
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:31,840
Speaker 2: exist altogether.

834
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 1: That's so good. That is everybody write that down and

835
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:39,319
Speaker 1: when you're hyper focusing on everybody else, you go back.

836
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:41,880
Speaker 2: They've got the right to make their decisions. Just now,

837
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 2: I will say this, We don't have the right to

838
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:49,400
Speaker 2: hurt other people. We don't have the right to How

839
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:51,799
Speaker 2: do I say it, like, like I have I have

840
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 2: the right to feel angry, but I don't have the

841
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 2: right to punch you in the Facebook because I'm angry.

842
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,360
Speaker 1: Yes, right, yes, yes, yes, So.

843
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:01,239
Speaker 2: I think there's an ownership and there's an accountability that's

844
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:03,479
Speaker 2: kind of being lost with a lot of mental health

845
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 2: stuff these days. Right, So it's like I have to

846
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 2: own my self determination without threatening without imposing a threat

847
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:12,279
Speaker 2: on someone else as well.

848
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 1: I'm okay, so this is coming up in my head

849
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:16,839
Speaker 1: right now, and I want to say this and tease

850
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 1: us out. So we started talking about this, like loneliness

851
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 1: epidemic in the world right outside of the conversation we're

852
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:26,720
Speaker 1: having now. And then we're having this conversation about how

853
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 1: you know, people who will go to treatment get set

854
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:33,360
Speaker 1: up to fail and they come back into the world,

855
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 1: and we start to pick apart the world and the

856
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 1: issue with that because as I was thinking about that,

857
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 1: I was like, wait, okay, if we are then creating

858
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 1: more individualism within ourselves outside of treatment, then am I

859
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:55,840
Speaker 1: setting myself up to be more lonely? But the answer

860
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:59,239
Speaker 1: is no, because going back to what I said when

861
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 1: I said, I've been able to have better relationships because

862
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:04,759
Speaker 1: I can have boundaries, but it doesn't have to be

863
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:08,319
Speaker 1: so rigid. That's the whole and I hope this is

864
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:10,799
Speaker 1: making sense to everybody, but that's the whole where I

865
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:13,839
Speaker 1: come out of treatment, it's either black or white, it's

866
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:16,959
Speaker 1: either yes or no. And so I very often become

867
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 1: very secluded because to stay safe, I have to stay

868
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 1: alone because other people threaten my recovery. But the solution

869
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 1: is no, you can be in relationship with people and

870
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:31,160
Speaker 1: their stuff that doesn't match with your exact stuff doesn't

871
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 1: have to threaten your safety.

872
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:35,839
Speaker 2: That's right, or your decision right.

873
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:38,680
Speaker 1: So how do I learn how to sit in that

874
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 1: space where there are people that are going to disagree

875
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:43,880
Speaker 1: with me. There's people that are going to behave differently

876
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 1: than me. There are people that are going to just

877
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 1: have different sets of beliefs, which is a whole issue

878
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:51,720
Speaker 1: right now where we cannot tolerate it. Can We cannot

879
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:55,000
Speaker 1: tolerate anybody who doesn't agree with every single thing you say.

880
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 2: What you just said, That is the epicenter of sub centeredness.

881
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the of it.

882
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:05,279
Speaker 2: So what you'll find typically is folks who are very

883
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 2: insecure in their recovery. I call it baby deer legs.

884
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 2: They're just kind of they're new, they're a little bit shaky,

885
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:16,319
Speaker 2: they're not quite ready to stand it. They're not a

886
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,399
Speaker 2: tall oak tree kind of Yeah, kind of presence yet

887
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:21,520
Speaker 2: within themselves, right kind of I was there, We're all

888
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:23,760
Speaker 2: there when we get out of it. At that point

889
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 2: in your recovery, you do need to surround yourself with

890
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:30,720
Speaker 2: folks that mirror a recovered life back to you until

891
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 2: you get a little stronger in your own recovery, and

892
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:36,959
Speaker 2: then you gotta kind of start to join other people,

893
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 2: right and not limit yourself. It's the same thing with

894
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 2: folks who cannot tolerate other and this is a whole

895
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:48,479
Speaker 2: other podcast. Religious beliefs, political believe any anybody who thinks

896
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:50,840
Speaker 2: or feels, or reacts to things differently than me. I

897
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:53,080
Speaker 2: can't tolerate it. If I'm insecure with what I think

898
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:57,160
Speaker 2: and feel. I have baby deer legs with my opinions.

899
00:45:57,200 --> 00:45:59,839
Speaker 2: I have baby deer legs with my reactions to things.

900
00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 2: I'm still getting to know this part of myself, et cetera,

901
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 2: et cetera. At that point, you cannot tolerate anything but

902
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:09,279
Speaker 2: a mirror. You have to have that mirrored back to you. Right,

903
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 2: So it's like I'm okay, right, this is okay that

904
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:12,960
Speaker 2: I think this and I feel this, and I do

905
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:14,279
Speaker 2: it right right, like you do it too right. You

906
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:16,080
Speaker 2: got to do it too. Wait, you don't do it,

907
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:21,760
Speaker 2: get out. But like, the more the more like secure

908
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:25,320
Speaker 2: you become in your recovery process, the more you become

909
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:30,120
Speaker 2: secure in what you truly know to be true about you.

910
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:33,400
Speaker 2: I really believe it comes down to a core safety.

911
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:36,400
Speaker 2: The safer you feel on the inside on the inside,

912
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:38,920
Speaker 2: the more you can tolerate on the It's like, okay,

913
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:42,360
Speaker 2: because it's not a threat. It's cool. I got you girl, Like,

914
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:45,240
Speaker 2: it's it's cool you think differently, or you do life differently,

915
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:48,239
Speaker 2: or you you know you do sugar free this or

916
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:51,480
Speaker 2: gluten for okay, cool. I don't need that mirror back

917
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:54,200
Speaker 2: to me anymore because I'm so safe on the inside

918
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 2: with me and who I am and what I need

919
00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:58,640
Speaker 2: that I can love you for exactly who and what

920
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 2: you are. And that's wonderful.

921
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:04,919
Speaker 1: You know what I did. Oh, I'm cringing. And if

922
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:07,960
Speaker 1: my friends are listening to this, you're like probably sitting

923
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:09,920
Speaker 1: there about to sit there and say, I've been waiting

924
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 1: for you to say that. But when you said that

925
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 1: thing about sugar free, I remember very clearly when I'm

926
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:19,880
Speaker 1: like in my I probably was baby dear, but I

927
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:26,879
Speaker 1: thought but I was, Yes, I am so empowered and

928
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:29,920
Speaker 1: I am woke, and I'm this and I'm that, and

929
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:34,239
Speaker 1: I like, wouldn't let my friends say things about themselves

930
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:38,399
Speaker 1: like I feel ugly or I even things like does

931
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:41,719
Speaker 1: this do these genes make my legs look this way?

932
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:46,240
Speaker 1: Or I wouldn't let them say anything that has anything

933
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:49,239
Speaker 1: to do with them having any insecurity. I would like,

934
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 1: you can't say that, And I know where it came from.

935
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:53,839
Speaker 1: It comes from this place of like, I want my

936
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:57,359
Speaker 1: friends to talk well about themselves. I want us to

937
00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:00,400
Speaker 1: be focusing on what's good. I don't want my friends

938
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:02,600
Speaker 1: to think that what they look like is the most

939
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 1: important thing about them. Like, I understand where that came from,

940
00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:10,400
Speaker 1: But that had to be so freaking annoying because it

941
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:12,920
Speaker 1: is part of the human experience to be insecure about

942
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:16,000
Speaker 1: certain things. And I don't have to act like I

943
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:20,479
Speaker 1: am totally one hundred and fifteen percent obsessed with every

944
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 1: single part of myself to be in recovery. Amen, Like

945
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:27,520
Speaker 1: I can actually not like what something looks like.

946
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:33,960
Speaker 2: I'm like, you are female an American, right, it's in

947
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:36,400
Speaker 2: our DNA to not like the like stuff about the

948
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:38,200
Speaker 2: way we look. Yes, but you don't have to go

949
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:41,400
Speaker 2: nose diving into an eating disorder about it right? Right exactly?

950
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:42,799
Speaker 2: It's like, what am I gonna do?

951
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:46,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's not allowing people to have their experience

952
00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:51,640
Speaker 1: is so not necessary because my friend thinking something it

953
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 1: really was about me. I think it's because it goes

954
00:48:54,239 --> 00:48:56,799
Speaker 1: back to like when people say that around me, around me,

955
00:48:57,200 --> 00:48:59,959
Speaker 1: I feel like I then start thinking about my stuf

956
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:03,719
Speaker 1: and what I'm insecure about. And I needed to learn that, like, hey,

957
00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:06,440
Speaker 1: I can hold my insecurities and also hold the things

958
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:08,840
Speaker 1: I'm confident about. Like, let's say something that my friend

959
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:11,359
Speaker 1: is insecure about on their body I don't really care

960
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:13,680
Speaker 1: about on mine. I can hold those things to be

961
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:16,799
Speaker 1: true even though it's not their truth. And I am

962
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:19,120
Speaker 1: finally to a point where I can do that. And

963
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:22,279
Speaker 1: I am telling you I don't think I could have

964
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:25,359
Speaker 1: done recovery that way. It was so freaking exhausting all

965
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:28,839
Speaker 1: the time to be hyper focused on what everyone else

966
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:31,560
Speaker 1: is saying, what every else is doing? Again, what's on

967
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:34,799
Speaker 1: the TV? Am I doing everything? Right? Am I doing? Like?

968
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:34,960
Speaker 3: Oh?

969
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:37,719
Speaker 1: I shouldn't have that thought, I shouldn't live it's manual, yes,

970
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:40,120
Speaker 1: And now I'm like, oh, I get to be a

971
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:44,440
Speaker 1: human being who sometimes changes her outfit four times a

972
00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:48,160
Speaker 1: day because I can't find something that I like. That's right,

973
00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:51,759
Speaker 1: And I'm allowed to have a day where i don't

974
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:53,480
Speaker 1: want to be in a picture, and I'm allowed to

975
00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:56,920
Speaker 1: have a moment where I'm having thoughts that I don't

976
00:49:56,960 --> 00:49:59,520
Speaker 1: want to have, but that does not threaten the fact

977
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:02,439
Speaker 1: that I can make good decisions for myself and also

978
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:05,120
Speaker 1: still love myself. And so I'm going off on it tangent,

979
00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:08,160
Speaker 1: but yeah, I think that is very just so important

980
00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:12,239
Speaker 1: for people to allow. It's almost like I'm talking about

981
00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:17,520
Speaker 1: something very simple, allow grayness to exist in other people's lives,

982
00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:19,239
Speaker 1: my life recovery.

983
00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:21,120
Speaker 2: I want to say something to that because I think

984
00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:24,839
Speaker 2: it's so important. In my very humble opinion, I think

985
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:28,640
Speaker 2: everything in the entire universe boils down to either love

986
00:50:29,239 --> 00:50:31,960
Speaker 2: or fear. Now, some people call it good and evil.

987
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:37,040
Speaker 2: In my personal experience, it's love or fear. So let

988
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:40,200
Speaker 2: me break down what you just said in that context, right, Like,

989
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:43,640
Speaker 2: I have so much compassion for that stage of recovery

990
00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:47,040
Speaker 2: and the fear associated with it. Right, So, the baby

991
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:51,520
Speaker 2: deer legs or the intolerance of things and people and viewpoints,

992
00:50:51,560 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 2: and you know behaviors around you. If I feel the

993
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 2: need to control everything, why do humans need a false

994
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:01,560
Speaker 2: sense of control like that? Right?

995
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:03,080
Speaker 1: Scared we're scared to death?

996
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:07,319
Speaker 2: Okay, what am I scared of? Well, I'm afraid of death.

997
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:10,880
Speaker 2: I'm afraid of being left out. I'm afraid of not

998
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:14,239
Speaker 2: being loved. I'm afraid of not being good enough, I'm

999
00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:19,319
Speaker 2: afraid of not belonging. I'm afraid of etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. Right, so,

1000
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 2: there's something on the inside that we are terrified of

1001
00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:25,920
Speaker 2: that is fear based that then will manifest in these

1002
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:30,480
Speaker 2: kind of controlling thoughts and controlling behaviors. We don't really

1003
00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:32,440
Speaker 2: have a whole lot of control in this world outside

1004
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:35,520
Speaker 2: of ourselves. We just don't. Right, So the idea that

1005
00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:37,880
Speaker 2: we want to control everything around us, I have so

1006
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:41,680
Speaker 2: much compassion for that because when you pull that layer back,

1007
00:51:41,719 --> 00:51:44,439
Speaker 2: what's underneath it as somebody who's scared to death, who

1008
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:50,120
Speaker 2: doesn't yet have that really strong, stoic oak tree of

1009
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:55,000
Speaker 2: safety inside of them quite yet, right, just yet? So

1010
00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:58,200
Speaker 2: all of this stuff boils down to fear. Now, on

1011
00:51:58,239 --> 00:51:59,160
Speaker 2: the flip side.

1012
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:03,480
Speaker 3: Of that coin, if I sit back and let cat

1013
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:05,920
Speaker 3: make all of her decisions and run her life the

1014
00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:08,960
Speaker 3: way she sees fit for her. She's not infringing on

1015
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:11,759
Speaker 3: me or my ability to make my decisions or run

1016
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:14,360
Speaker 3: my life. And sometimes we agree on stuff and sometimes

1017
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:16,840
Speaker 3: we don't, and that's okay. But I never feel the

1018
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:21,239
Speaker 3: need to control you. That boils down to love and safety. Right,

1019
00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:24,359
Speaker 3: I'm safe on the inside, so it's me and cat

1020
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:26,920
Speaker 3: instead of me or cat, and I'm free to just

1021
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:29,160
Speaker 3: love you. I just love you, and I love everything

1022
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:33,440
Speaker 3: about you, And in my opinion, it allows for a

1023
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 3: deeper type of relationship. And I then allow you to

1024
00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:41,399
Speaker 3: teach me more about me by being your friend and

1025
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:44,600
Speaker 3: being in relationship with you, and it helps me grow.

1026
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:48,040
Speaker 3: So in my opinion, everything you can really do that

1027
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:49,959
Speaker 3: with just about anything boil it down to me either

1028
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:52,960
Speaker 3: love or fear, and fear is usually a lie.

1029
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:56,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I am like sitting here thinking about putting

1030
00:52:56,920 --> 00:52:59,520
Speaker 1: that in context of all my relationships past and present.

1031
00:53:01,040 --> 00:53:01,760
Speaker 2: We're just scared.

1032
00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:04,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, I have a lot of conversations to have with

1033
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:08,000
Speaker 1: you off off of this podcast. They're not we don't

1034
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:09,600
Speaker 1: need to have them on here, but yeah, that is

1035
00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:12,000
Speaker 1: so good. That's another thing that you guys need to

1036
00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:16,239
Speaker 1: write down. You need to write down the I can

1037
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:18,800
Speaker 1: be safe, like safeties within. What was the thing about

1038
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:19,560
Speaker 1: my self determined?

1039
00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:22,480
Speaker 2: Your right to self determination does not threaten mine?

1040
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:26,399
Speaker 1: Okay? And then also things boil down to love, fear or.

1041
00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:28,760
Speaker 2: Fear, and fear is usually just in our own minds. Yes,

1042
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:32,080
Speaker 2: it's not even it's not even happening. It's I'm real.

1043
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:34,680
Speaker 1: You also said this when we were in California. You said, like,

1044
00:53:34,719 --> 00:53:35,680
Speaker 1: anxiety is not real.

1045
00:53:35,719 --> 00:53:38,400
Speaker 2: It's not real. Yes, I know. I love that because

1046
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:40,239
Speaker 2: so many people will fight me out They're like, yes

1047
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:42,200
Speaker 2: it is. I feel it. I've medicated for it, and

1048
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:44,080
Speaker 2: I'm like, yeah, girl, I can bill insurance with it.

1049
00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:48,040
Speaker 2: But that doesn't make it like a real thing. Like

1050
00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:50,799
Speaker 2: what do you mean, my girl? I feel it every

1051
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:54,279
Speaker 2: you you feel the effects of what we call anxiety.

1052
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:57,000
Speaker 2: But it's like a psych buzzword. It's real popular, it's

1053
00:53:57,040 --> 00:53:59,440
Speaker 2: a DSM word. Now you know, you can get pills

1054
00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:02,040
Speaker 2: for it and all that shit. But when you again,

1055
00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:05,000
Speaker 2: when you pull that back, it's just this really unique

1056
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:10,520
Speaker 2: individual combination of anger and fear. That's what it's a combo.

1057
00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:10,799
Speaker 1: Right.

1058
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:12,320
Speaker 2: I used to say, you're terrified.

1059
00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:14,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, I used to say, anxiety is a fancy word

1060
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:17,719
Speaker 1: for fear and scared. Yeah, and and like you said,

1061
00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:19,759
Speaker 1: the fear. A lot of it's stuff we make up

1062
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:20,439
Speaker 1: in our head.

1063
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:22,320
Speaker 2: It's right, what if? What if? What if? Yes?

1064
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:22,759
Speaker 1: What if?

1065
00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:25,160
Speaker 2: And I say this all day to everybody. I'm like, guys,

1066
00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:29,840
Speaker 2: there's what if, and there's what is. If something starts

1067
00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:33,840
Speaker 2: with what if, that's in your imagination. That's why it

1068
00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:37,120
Speaker 2: starts with what if. Oh my god, Yes, that's how

1069
00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:41,359
Speaker 2: you know, imagination fantasy from reality. There's what if and

1070
00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:43,800
Speaker 2: what is? And if? It's what if in a reel.

1071
00:54:44,239 --> 00:54:46,279
Speaker 2: In a reel, you're making it up. It's the movie

1072
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:48,120
Speaker 2: in your head. Come back out here with me. I

1073
00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:49,400
Speaker 2: miss you when you go away, Come.

1074
00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:55,719
Speaker 1: Out, come back. Oh my god. Okay, that's so good.

1075
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:56,160
Speaker 2: Okay.

1076
00:54:56,719 --> 00:54:59,880
Speaker 1: So what we've done is we've identified kind of the

1077
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:02,799
Speaker 1: hole in the treatment system and how it leaves us,

1078
00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:05,239
Speaker 1: you know, set up to fail even when we have

1079
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:09,160
Speaker 1: really good intentions for to succeed. And we've identified this

1080
00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:12,719
Speaker 1: solution which makes sure that I'm getting this correct. A

1081
00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:14,880
Speaker 1: lot of it is the ability for me to maintain

1082
00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:18,680
Speaker 1: safety within myself and connection with people that aren't all

1083
00:55:18,719 --> 00:55:27,239
Speaker 1: on the same page as me at the same time, So,

1084
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:34,319
Speaker 1: how have you seen this done in your professional life? Like,

1085
00:55:34,719 --> 00:55:37,840
Speaker 1: how have you seen and how would you encourage somebody

1086
00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:41,080
Speaker 1: to set themselves up to eventually get from that baby

1087
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:44,440
Speaker 1: deer legs spot to the spot where I can stand.

1088
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:48,440
Speaker 2: Love that question. Great question. I don't know how people

1089
00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:51,120
Speaker 2: are going to feel about this answer, but I think

1090
00:55:51,120 --> 00:55:51,840
Speaker 2: it's just the truth.

1091
00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:52,919
Speaker 1: Okay, I like that.

1092
00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:57,800
Speaker 2: I think the most direct route to empowerment is personal

1093
00:55:57,840 --> 00:56:02,000
Speaker 2: accountability and responsibility. Now, when I talk to people about that,

1094
00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:06,760
Speaker 2: they hear it sometimes in a context of blame and fault,

1095
00:56:07,239 --> 00:56:09,760
Speaker 2: like you're to blame for this, or it's your fault

1096
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:13,359
Speaker 2: for your life being that way. Kind of yeah, right,

1097
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:16,200
Speaker 2: not in a bad way, in a good way. So

1098
00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:19,759
Speaker 2: the more I can zoom out and look at my

1099
00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:22,799
Speaker 2: life and really see the manifestation of all of my

1100
00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:26,239
Speaker 2: choices and decisions, yeah, I've made some pretty shitty ones.

1101
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:29,040
Speaker 2: I think anybody who knows me knows that. But at

1102
00:56:29,040 --> 00:56:32,600
Speaker 2: the same time, one hundred percent of it's in my control,

1103
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:35,799
Speaker 2: which means that I then have all the power to

1104
00:56:35,880 --> 00:56:38,880
Speaker 2: change it, and I'm not sitting around waiting on somebody

1105
00:56:38,960 --> 00:56:41,080
Speaker 2: else or something else to happen, like I don't have

1106
00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:43,960
Speaker 2: to wait. I get to step up and like make

1107
00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:47,680
Speaker 2: different choices to produce different outcome. Right. But before I

1108
00:56:47,719 --> 00:56:50,719
Speaker 2: can do that, really be empowered to make those choices,

1109
00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:54,120
Speaker 2: I have to back up and take accountability for my choices.

1110
00:56:54,520 --> 00:56:57,720
Speaker 2: So it's like, well, I'm eating just sort of recovery

1111
00:56:57,719 --> 00:56:59,160
Speaker 2: because my mom died it all the time, and my

1112
00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:02,080
Speaker 2: eating sort totally her fault. Okay, yeah, maybe that's how

1113
00:57:02,080 --> 00:57:05,480
Speaker 2: it kicked off. But I'm an adult now, so now

1114
00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:07,440
Speaker 2: I have the power of choice. I'm not eight years

1115
00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:11,040
Speaker 2: old anymore. Right, Yeah, maybe that's how it all started,

1116
00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:13,960
Speaker 2: But why is it still sticking around? I need to

1117
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:16,120
Speaker 2: make different choices for me, and I need to be

1118
00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:17,760
Speaker 2: empowered to make those choices.

1119
00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:21,200
Speaker 1: Oh my god. Yes, let me ask you a question.

1120
00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:25,480
Speaker 1: When we talk about accountability and responsibility, Yeah, defensiveness pops,

1121
00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:28,919
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, of course, of Why do you think that

1122
00:57:29,040 --> 00:57:30,240
Speaker 1: comes fear?

1123
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:33,640
Speaker 2: I yeah, we're terrified, right, So you know, Caa, if

1124
00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:34,960
Speaker 2: you look at me and you're like Courtney, you need

1125
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:38,080
Speaker 2: to take accountability and responsibility, I hear. Oh my god,

1126
00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:40,360
Speaker 2: I'm in trouble. Oh my god, I'm terrified. She hates me.

1127
00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:42,680
Speaker 2: She doesn't love them anymore. I'm not good enough. Wait,

1128
00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:45,440
Speaker 2: so what happens to guard me from that pain and

1129
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:49,240
Speaker 2: that fear defensiveness. I'm gonna get angry. I'm gonna snap back,

1130
00:57:49,320 --> 00:57:52,640
Speaker 2: I'm gonna blame shift, I'm gonna start pointing fingers. I'm

1131
00:57:52,640 --> 00:57:55,080
Speaker 2: gonna defend my position. I'm gonna feel it's really really

1132
00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:57,360
Speaker 2: important for you to understand me.

1133
00:57:57,560 --> 00:57:58,240
Speaker 1: That I'm good.

1134
00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:02,520
Speaker 2: I'm good. KAT need to justify that right now. Flip

1135
00:58:02,600 --> 00:58:05,600
Speaker 2: that coin over. If I'm safe on the inside and

1136
00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:07,720
Speaker 2: you saying to me court, you really need to take

1137
00:58:07,720 --> 00:58:11,439
Speaker 2: accountability and responsibility, I'd be like, oh god, maybe I do.

1138
00:58:11,760 --> 00:58:14,360
Speaker 2: Maybe there's some amends I need to make, maybe any okay,

1139
00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:17,400
Speaker 2: and I can recognize that as part of my humanity

1140
00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:22,560
Speaker 2: and stay safe. Nothing's threatened, I'm not afraid, if that

1141
00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:26,720
Speaker 2: makes sense. But before I can be peace filled enough

1142
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:29,919
Speaker 2: to be empowered, I think there's got you. We got

1143
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:33,840
Speaker 2: a level set with accountability and responsibility and understand that

1144
00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:37,640
Speaker 2: we truly are responsible just for us. And that's an

1145
00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:39,200
Speaker 2: awesome thing. Yeah.

1146
00:58:39,240 --> 00:58:42,479
Speaker 1: I love that's I love you talking about that as

1147
00:58:43,000 --> 00:58:47,200
Speaker 1: a positive thing, because when when things are I want

1148
00:58:47,200 --> 00:58:48,960
Speaker 1: to use the word fault but I don't feel like

1149
00:58:48,960 --> 00:58:49,360
Speaker 1: that's the right.

1150
00:58:49,440 --> 00:58:51,600
Speaker 2: No, everybody, Yeah, I.

1151
00:58:51,520 --> 00:58:53,520
Speaker 1: Have an ikey. I don't even want to say that word,

1152
00:58:53,560 --> 00:58:57,439
Speaker 1: but it's like things are well, then I can then

1153
00:58:57,640 --> 00:58:58,920
Speaker 1: do something about it.

1154
00:58:59,160 --> 00:59:00,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, great thing.

1155
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:04,720
Speaker 1: What is it that we need to be doing? Like

1156
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:07,320
Speaker 1: going back to the original question, So I take accountability

1157
00:59:07,360 --> 00:59:09,040
Speaker 1: and responsibility and that leads to what.

1158
00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:13,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, it leads to freedom. So I think confidence and

1159
00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:18,280
Speaker 2: empowerment are very quiet. I think fear and insecurity are

1160
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:23,800
Speaker 2: very loud. So when I feel activated and loud and

1161
00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:27,560
Speaker 2: I'm having a big feel about something, I'm probably scared

1162
00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:29,720
Speaker 2: shitless of something on the inside. So what I do

1163
00:59:29,800 --> 00:59:33,800
Speaker 2: is I have learned to recognize that almost chemical adrenaline

1164
00:59:33,840 --> 00:59:36,920
Speaker 2: like reaction in myself, and I'll big yo, you need

1165
00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:40,040
Speaker 2: to sit on your hands, dude, Like, okay, self, you

1166
00:59:40,120 --> 00:59:43,640
Speaker 2: need to time out. Let this chemical, let this adrenaline

1167
00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:45,680
Speaker 2: drain out of your body, out of your toes. And

1168
00:59:45,720 --> 00:59:49,560
Speaker 2: when this passes, zoom out and like, okay, what something

1169
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:53,400
Speaker 2: something just got okay clicked on in there? What is that?

1170
00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:54,720
Speaker 2: What am I afraid of? Okay?

1171
00:59:54,720 --> 00:59:56,320
Speaker 1: I have to write this down because I don't want

1172
00:59:56,320 --> 00:59:57,919
Speaker 1: to forget this. And you guys can't see my face,

1173
00:59:57,960 --> 01:00:00,320
Speaker 1: but I just my jaw dropped because that was so good.

1174
01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:03,440
Speaker 1: Saty and confidence and empowerment are very quiet.

1175
01:00:03,480 --> 01:00:06,160
Speaker 2: I think they're quiet. I think when someone's truly confident

1176
01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:08,960
Speaker 2: and truly empowered with who they are as an animal,

1177
01:00:09,760 --> 01:00:12,560
Speaker 2: as a spiritual being, having a human experience, I think

1178
01:00:12,600 --> 01:00:16,720
Speaker 2: it's a quiet, piece filled experience because you don't have

1179
01:00:16,720 --> 01:00:22,720
Speaker 2: anything to prove to anybody, especially yourself. I think I

1180
01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:27,080
Speaker 2: think in security and fear are loud, they're deafening, they

1181
01:00:27,120 --> 01:00:31,120
Speaker 2: are in your face. They are self important. They can

1182
01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:35,120
Speaker 2: cripple yourself and they can cripple other people. They're they're

1183
01:00:35,280 --> 01:00:38,440
Speaker 2: space taking, they're just they're big, right, Well, of course,

1184
01:00:38,480 --> 01:00:40,800
Speaker 2: I mean, look at animals in the animal world when

1185
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:44,040
Speaker 2: they're terrified. There's so many different animals that like puff

1186
01:00:44,120 --> 01:00:46,560
Speaker 2: up or raise up on their hind legs, they get

1187
01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:49,560
Speaker 2: real big. In love, we're not any different. We're not

1188
01:00:49,640 --> 01:00:53,200
Speaker 2: any different, right. So what I have found is that

1189
01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:57,040
Speaker 2: if I'm having a reaction to something, a thought, I

1190
01:00:57,160 --> 01:00:59,840
Speaker 2: have something that's happened in the world, something that somebody

1191
01:00:59,840 --> 01:01:04,920
Speaker 2: else says, it's threatening, that quiet empowerment that I have, Okay,

1192
01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:07,120
Speaker 2: that's okay, I just got to look at that. It's

1193
01:01:07,160 --> 01:01:10,040
Speaker 2: an arrow to redirect me to a piece of myself

1194
01:01:10,080 --> 01:01:11,800
Speaker 2: that I need to work on and look at, which

1195
01:01:11,840 --> 01:01:13,880
Speaker 2: never stops. Like we never are right, we never get there,

1196
01:01:13,960 --> 01:01:16,040
Speaker 2: We never like, oh my god, I'm totally enlightened now.

1197
01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:18,080
Speaker 2: Like it just it never stops.

1198
01:01:18,160 --> 01:01:18,240
Speaker 1: Right.

1199
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:21,320
Speaker 2: There's always something new to learn, always something new to

1200
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:24,360
Speaker 2: observe about yourself. But I think the goal is the

1201
01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:28,160
Speaker 2: trick is to observe it like a science experiment and

1202
01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:31,680
Speaker 2: not judge it. It's not bad, it's not wrong, it's

1203
01:01:31,800 --> 01:01:32,400
Speaker 2: just there.

1204
01:01:32,840 --> 01:01:34,120
Speaker 1: That's yeah, that's okay.

1205
01:01:34,120 --> 01:01:36,520
Speaker 2: I just take it's okay, it's cool, it's all right.

1206
01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:38,080
Speaker 2: Let's just take a look at it and be curious.

1207
01:01:38,120 --> 01:01:40,360
Speaker 2: Let's poke at it and see what flies out of there.

1208
01:01:40,480 --> 01:01:43,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, we have more things for you to write down.

1209
01:01:44,320 --> 01:01:46,160
Speaker 1: This is probably the most notes you've ever taken in

1210
01:01:46,520 --> 01:01:49,600
Speaker 1: a podcast here. The confidence and empowerment are very quiet.

1211
01:01:50,080 --> 01:01:53,800
Speaker 1: So and then that whole idea of let's observe something

1212
01:01:53,840 --> 01:01:56,320
Speaker 1: and look at it like a science experiment. I always

1213
01:01:56,320 --> 01:01:58,520
Speaker 1: say to client's like, this is an experiment. Like what

1214
01:01:58,560 --> 01:02:00,920
Speaker 1: we're doing is we're experimental teen with things.

1215
01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:04,960
Speaker 2: But it's scary because experiment. The outcome of experiments are unknown,

1216
01:02:05,240 --> 01:02:08,000
Speaker 2: and we are wired to fear the unknown. I'll have

1217
01:02:08,080 --> 01:02:09,840
Speaker 2: a lot of It's really sad it's getting younger and

1218
01:02:09,880 --> 01:02:12,800
Speaker 2: younger now, but I mean down to like ten eleven

1219
01:02:12,880 --> 01:02:15,400
Speaker 2: twelve year olds. Moms will bring them in to work

1220
01:02:15,440 --> 01:02:18,040
Speaker 2: with me. I mean up until I think the oldest

1221
01:02:18,080 --> 01:02:20,800
Speaker 2: person I've ever worked with on this particular topic was

1222
01:02:20,840 --> 01:02:24,200
Speaker 2: in her sixties. I want to be confident. I want

1223
01:02:24,240 --> 01:02:26,720
Speaker 2: to feel confident or here my daughter is so insecure.

1224
01:02:26,720 --> 01:02:29,960
Speaker 2: I want to teacher to be confident. And my work

1225
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:34,440
Speaker 2: with every single human is Confidence isn't something I teach you.

1226
01:02:35,120 --> 01:02:39,280
Speaker 2: Confidence isn't something you learn. Confidence doesn't exist outside yourself.

1227
01:02:39,560 --> 01:02:43,320
Speaker 2: It's your natural state. Confident is how you came into

1228
01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:48,800
Speaker 2: this world. You learn to be afraid. We learn social fears,

1229
01:02:48,920 --> 01:02:51,440
Speaker 2: right like if you do that on the playground, that

1230
01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:54,440
Speaker 2: makes you a bad girl. We learn what's wrong, we

1231
01:02:54,680 --> 01:02:58,240
Speaker 2: learn what it's all learned. So what happens is each

1232
01:02:58,680 --> 01:03:01,040
Speaker 2: new thing we learn to be afraid of stamps down.

1233
01:03:01,320 --> 01:03:05,360
Speaker 2: Stamps down, shoves down, pushes down that natural confidence. So

1234
01:03:05,920 --> 01:03:08,840
Speaker 2: confidence is what Booy's up to the top. When you

1235
01:03:08,840 --> 01:03:12,320
Speaker 2: strip all the fear away, you don't work to get it,

1236
01:03:12,320 --> 01:03:17,400
Speaker 2: it's already there. You're working too hard. Oh yes, you're

1237
01:03:17,440 --> 01:03:20,480
Speaker 2: working too hard maintaining all these fears. And when the

1238
01:03:20,520 --> 01:03:23,280
Speaker 2: fear goes away, the confidence is like like comes right

1239
01:03:23,320 --> 01:03:25,320
Speaker 2: back up and you're like, I'll pick a wedgie at

1240
01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:25,800
Speaker 2: a restaurant.

1241
01:03:25,840 --> 01:03:26,280
Speaker 1: I don't care.

1242
01:03:27,000 --> 01:03:28,800
Speaker 2: No, I'm just kidding. Maybe I'm kidding.

1243
01:03:29,400 --> 01:03:33,600
Speaker 1: No, No, it ever a hundred percent. And if you

1244
01:03:33,600 --> 01:03:36,560
Speaker 1: guys are like, really apply this to your life, because

1245
01:03:36,880 --> 01:03:39,480
Speaker 1: how often do we hear build? We have to build confidence.

1246
01:03:39,520 --> 01:03:40,680
Speaker 1: You have to build out. We have to build it,

1247
01:03:40,720 --> 01:03:43,200
Speaker 1: Like what are the we need the materials to build it.

1248
01:03:43,200 --> 01:03:44,920
Speaker 1: It's like no, no, no, no, no, it is built.

1249
01:03:44,960 --> 01:03:48,760
Speaker 2: We have to shed shed, shed, shed all of the

1250
01:03:48,880 --> 01:03:52,120
Speaker 2: learned fear shed it. It's not real. Somebody taught you that.

1251
01:03:52,800 --> 01:03:55,200
Speaker 2: Somebody taught you that as a control tactic, like ditch it,

1252
01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:58,000
Speaker 2: ditch it, it's in your way, it's in your way

1253
01:03:58,000 --> 01:04:00,240
Speaker 2: now and again, like anything else, I think there was

1254
01:04:00,280 --> 01:04:02,120
Speaker 2: a time and a place for that. Like little kids,

1255
01:04:02,160 --> 01:04:03,560
Speaker 2: you know, you got to teach them how to function

1256
01:04:03,600 --> 01:04:07,720
Speaker 2: in a society. Absolutely, but it works until it doesn't work.

1257
01:04:07,760 --> 01:04:12,160
Speaker 2: And I think that sometimes fear, which should be used

1258
01:04:12,160 --> 01:04:15,200
Speaker 2: appropriately right, we take it too far, just like it's social,

1259
01:04:15,320 --> 01:04:18,560
Speaker 2: just like anything else, right where it becomes in control

1260
01:04:18,840 --> 01:04:22,880
Speaker 2: of us and it buries any kind of self awareness

1261
01:04:22,920 --> 01:04:24,760
Speaker 2: or confidence we have. And I hear this all the

1262
01:04:24,800 --> 01:04:28,240
Speaker 2: time too, like, well, I'm afraid to think something even

1263
01:04:28,320 --> 01:04:31,040
Speaker 2: positive of myself because that means I'm arrogant. And I

1264
01:04:31,080 --> 01:04:32,720
Speaker 2: don't want people to think like I'm a bitch or

1265
01:04:32,760 --> 01:04:34,400
Speaker 2: I'm vain or whatever, and I'm.

1266
01:04:34,200 --> 01:04:37,520
Speaker 1: Like, I'm a narcissist. Yeah, No, narcissis aren't worried about

1267
01:04:37,520 --> 01:04:39,160
Speaker 1: being narcissist, right exactly, if you're.

1268
01:04:39,080 --> 01:04:44,960
Speaker 2: Asking that question, Noticing something or being co that you're

1269
01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:48,240
Speaker 2: good at or being confident in something is not arrogant.

1270
01:04:48,440 --> 01:04:52,040
Speaker 2: Thinking that that makes you better than everybody makes you arrogant.

1271
01:04:53,000 --> 01:04:55,080
Speaker 2: That's something totally different.

1272
01:04:55,360 --> 01:04:57,919
Speaker 1: Let me get your thought on this. This is Kat

1273
01:04:58,000 --> 01:05:02,520
Speaker 1: right now, thoughts coming together, trying to form yes. So,

1274
01:05:02,760 --> 01:05:05,760
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks ago, I released a podcast talking

1275
01:05:05,760 --> 01:05:09,480
Speaker 1: about self worth versus self esteem and something that I

1276
01:05:09,520 --> 01:05:14,800
Speaker 1: know now and believe now about self esteem is it.

1277
01:05:14,600 --> 01:05:18,080
Speaker 1: It is something that we have been taught we need

1278
01:05:18,120 --> 01:05:22,720
Speaker 1: to build, but it's something we build through outside experiences.

1279
01:05:22,760 --> 01:05:25,920
Speaker 1: Like my self esteem is higher if I'm the smartest

1280
01:05:25,920 --> 01:05:28,440
Speaker 1: in the class, or my self esteem is higher if

1281
01:05:28,680 --> 01:05:30,720
Speaker 1: somebody says I'm the prettiest in the room, or my

1282
01:05:30,720 --> 01:05:33,800
Speaker 1: self esteem is higher because it's something that I worked.

1283
01:05:34,200 --> 01:05:37,280
Speaker 1: And then I got the issue with that is that

1284
01:05:37,360 --> 01:05:40,360
Speaker 1: if self esteem comes when you're better, then only some

1285
01:05:40,400 --> 01:05:42,840
Speaker 1: people can have self esteem and some people can't. And

1286
01:05:42,880 --> 01:05:46,000
Speaker 1: then we're also like what you said, it's the difference

1287
01:05:46,000 --> 01:05:48,880
Speaker 1: between being like self confident and arrogant. It's like, I

1288
01:05:48,920 --> 01:05:52,440
Speaker 1: think I'm better than you because of this thing, and

1289
01:05:52,480 --> 01:05:54,040
Speaker 1: so then it gets us in this trap where we

1290
01:05:54,200 --> 01:05:56,480
Speaker 1: always it's like a cycle where we always need to

1291
01:05:56,520 --> 01:05:59,080
Speaker 1: be building self esteem because it only lasts for a

1292
01:05:59,080 --> 01:06:01,720
Speaker 1: period of time and if we go from one room

1293
01:06:01,720 --> 01:06:05,360
Speaker 1: to another, they might care about my job, but they don't,

1294
01:06:05,640 --> 01:06:07,600
Speaker 1: So then I have to build something over here.

1295
01:06:07,960 --> 01:06:09,440
Speaker 2: Exhausting, isn't it? Yes?

1296
01:06:09,520 --> 01:06:13,520
Speaker 1: And so I'm wondering, this is something that I want

1297
01:06:13,520 --> 01:06:15,080
Speaker 1: you guys that are listening, like, this is something I'm

1298
01:06:15,120 --> 01:06:19,200
Speaker 1: teasing out. Is there something we need to do about

1299
01:06:19,760 --> 01:06:22,680
Speaker 1: or study or think about when it comes to what

1300
01:06:22,760 --> 01:06:25,560
Speaker 1: we're focusing on, Like what's the difference between self esteem

1301
01:06:25,920 --> 01:06:30,440
Speaker 1: and confidence? Because confidence feels more connected to self worth.

1302
01:06:30,520 --> 01:06:35,160
Speaker 1: I inherently am worthy, yes, as a human being. Period, Like,

1303
01:06:35,200 --> 01:06:37,160
Speaker 1: we don't have to make it any more complicated than that.

1304
01:06:38,400 --> 01:06:41,880
Speaker 1: Self esteem is I am good because kind.

1305
01:06:41,720 --> 01:06:43,360
Speaker 2: Of it's conditional, it's quantified.

1306
01:06:43,520 --> 01:06:47,560
Speaker 1: Right, So when we're talking about confidence, we're saying, hey,

1307
01:06:47,960 --> 01:06:49,840
Speaker 1: you don't actually don't need the self esteem like that

1308
01:06:49,960 --> 01:06:52,560
Speaker 1: is a thing that we've made up correct to help

1309
01:06:52,560 --> 01:06:55,480
Speaker 1: people feel better about themselves. And that is why we

1310
01:06:55,560 --> 01:06:59,440
Speaker 1: have maybe a narcissism epidemic right now, because we have

1311
01:06:59,520 --> 01:07:03,240
Speaker 1: been telling people in order to have confidence, you then

1312
01:07:03,560 --> 01:07:06,280
Speaker 1: have to be better than everybody versus in order to

1313
01:07:06,360 --> 01:07:08,000
Speaker 1: have confidence, you just have to have stop you just

1314
01:07:08,040 --> 01:07:09,160
Speaker 1: being afraid that you're not good.

1315
01:07:09,280 --> 01:07:11,320
Speaker 2: You just have to be good.

1316
01:07:11,360 --> 01:07:12,720
Speaker 1: God, did that make sense?

1317
01:07:12,800 --> 01:07:16,040
Speaker 2: There's that? Yeah, you just have to be That's it.

1318
01:07:16,200 --> 01:07:18,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay. I don't know if I'm gonna feel about

1319
01:07:18,400 --> 01:07:20,600
Speaker 1: myself saying this later in life, but I just feel

1320
01:07:20,640 --> 01:07:23,200
Speaker 1: like maybe we need to write a book called Nobody

1321
01:07:23,200 --> 01:07:26,360
Speaker 1: Cares about Your Self Esteem or like stan for Losers

1322
01:07:26,440 --> 01:07:28,840
Speaker 1: or like something like that, or like that has to

1323
01:07:28,880 --> 01:07:29,680
Speaker 1: stop being well.

1324
01:07:29,720 --> 01:07:32,480
Speaker 2: I think you're right. And periods of my life where

1325
01:07:32,520 --> 01:07:35,200
Speaker 2: self esteem has been so crucial and critical to me

1326
01:07:35,400 --> 01:07:38,680
Speaker 2: it's that it's that same idea where you look. It's

1327
01:07:38,720 --> 01:07:43,240
Speaker 2: you're seeking validation. You're looking for something or somebody outside

1328
01:07:43,240 --> 01:07:45,840
Speaker 2: of you to tell you that you're okay. And any

1329
01:07:45,880 --> 01:07:47,760
Speaker 2: phase of my life where I need that, I'm sure

1330
01:07:47,760 --> 01:07:49,240
Speaker 2: i'll have another one at some point. I mean it

1331
01:07:49,280 --> 01:07:51,760
Speaker 2: comes in yeahs right, Like you don't arrive one day

1332
01:07:51,760 --> 01:07:55,000
Speaker 2: and everything's fixed. But during those seasons of my life

1333
01:07:55,040 --> 01:07:58,000
Speaker 2: there's something I'm really scared of. On the inside. I

1334
01:07:58,040 --> 01:08:00,200
Speaker 2: have a little bit of a different take on on

1335
01:08:00,360 --> 01:08:03,600
Speaker 2: self or like being worthy. I don't think anybody's worthy.

1336
01:08:03,720 --> 01:08:06,360
Speaker 2: I don't think that's a real thing worthy of what

1337
01:08:06,720 --> 01:08:10,680
Speaker 2: who decides that? It's there's still a barometer. I think

1338
01:08:10,720 --> 01:08:13,320
Speaker 2: that's all I don't think. I think we just simply are.

1339
01:08:13,840 --> 01:08:16,280
Speaker 2: I don't think anybody's good or bad, but that's who

1340
01:08:16,320 --> 01:08:18,920
Speaker 2: wor they are unworthy. I just think we are. I

1341
01:08:18,920 --> 01:08:20,720
Speaker 2: think there's choice and consequence.

1342
01:08:21,400 --> 01:08:25,360
Speaker 1: I like what you're saying, and I hear people being like,

1343
01:08:25,720 --> 01:08:27,719
Speaker 1: I don't know what to do with that. Yeah, because

1344
01:08:27,800 --> 01:08:30,640
Speaker 1: that doesn't give me an answer, that doesn't give me

1345
01:08:31,080 --> 01:08:31,919
Speaker 1: a roadmap.

1346
01:08:32,000 --> 01:08:34,639
Speaker 2: And what you just said is baby, dear legs, Yeah

1347
01:08:34,720 --> 01:08:37,280
Speaker 2: that is, and that's Okay, that's okay. I have so

1348
01:08:37,439 --> 01:08:38,479
Speaker 2: much compassion for that.

1349
01:08:38,560 --> 01:08:41,400
Speaker 1: So this is Oh, guys listening that know me and

1350
01:08:41,439 --> 01:08:43,479
Speaker 1: know how I feel about this. This right hero we're

1351
01:08:43,520 --> 01:08:48,080
Speaker 1: talking about coming from a very seasoned therapist that I

1352
01:08:48,160 --> 01:08:54,080
Speaker 1: highly respect. This is why I cannot stand people on

1353
01:08:54,120 --> 01:08:56,960
Speaker 1: the internet and who are selling you these books five

1354
01:08:57,000 --> 01:08:57,680
Speaker 1: steps to this?

1355
01:08:57,880 --> 01:08:58,439
Speaker 2: Oh God?

1356
01:08:58,720 --> 01:09:02,719
Speaker 1: Who are these self help gurus? Who are I mean, sure,

1357
01:09:02,760 --> 01:09:06,120
Speaker 1: you can be self proclaimed anything, and not everybody needs

1358
01:09:06,160 --> 01:09:07,760
Speaker 1: to have a degree from a school to be able

1359
01:09:07,760 --> 01:09:10,559
Speaker 1: to help people. But that is why I have such

1360
01:09:10,600 --> 01:09:14,960
Speaker 1: an issue. It's because we're making shit up when we

1361
01:09:15,000 --> 01:09:18,200
Speaker 1: really need to be breaking things down. But people are

1362
01:09:18,280 --> 01:09:21,320
Speaker 1: uncomfortable with what you just said.

1363
01:09:21,360 --> 01:09:24,040
Speaker 2: And I think that naturally so right, I was uncomfortable

1364
01:09:24,040 --> 01:09:26,280
Speaker 2: when I first started to put some of this stuff together.

1365
01:09:26,320 --> 01:09:28,920
Speaker 2: I'm like that, And here's why it makes me uncomfortable

1366
01:09:29,000 --> 01:09:33,000
Speaker 2: because I'm American and I am programmed and trained to

1367
01:09:33,240 --> 01:09:36,559
Speaker 2: work and earn and achieve. And I'm thinking, wait a minute,

1368
01:09:36,720 --> 01:09:39,040
Speaker 2: so you're saying that, like I've built my whole life

1369
01:09:39,040 --> 01:09:41,240
Speaker 2: and my sense of self on this premise that like

1370
01:09:41,760 --> 01:09:44,759
Speaker 2: I can't earn there's no roadmap. Wait, wait a minute,

1371
01:09:44,760 --> 01:09:46,840
Speaker 2: Wait a minute. Wait a minute, And I had to

1372
01:09:46,920 --> 01:09:49,479
Speaker 2: take a lot of time and undo a lot of

1373
01:09:49,520 --> 01:09:51,960
Speaker 2: those messages and things that we learn. And of course,

1374
01:09:52,080 --> 01:09:54,800
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, that's why I have so much compassion

1375
01:09:54,960 --> 01:09:59,240
Speaker 2: for folks new to this idea that you just get

1376
01:09:59,280 --> 01:10:04,799
Speaker 2: to be you're totally safe again as a spiritual creature

1377
01:10:04,840 --> 01:10:07,559
Speaker 2: having a human experience. Yeah, and you're having the same

1378
01:10:07,640 --> 01:10:10,200
Speaker 2: experience we're all having in your own unique way.

1379
01:10:10,120 --> 01:10:13,040
Speaker 1: Because it's harder to unlearn things than to learn things. Yes,

1380
01:10:13,040 --> 01:10:15,599
Speaker 1: And that's where a lot where this all is coming from.

1381
01:10:15,720 --> 01:10:18,120
Speaker 2: It is and so it's the idea is like I

1382
01:10:18,120 --> 01:10:20,519
Speaker 2: can be happier by doing less. Wait a minute, I'm

1383
01:10:20,560 --> 01:10:24,719
Speaker 2: working too hard. Wait a minute, I'm doing too much.

1384
01:10:25,560 --> 01:10:28,880
Speaker 2: Yeah what yeah, yeah, So I've seen all of this

1385
01:10:29,000 --> 01:10:32,559
Speaker 2: stuff for ever. I mean I've been I've been working

1386
01:10:32,560 --> 01:10:36,280
Speaker 2: with clients for over a decade. And it's not rare.

1387
01:10:36,360 --> 01:10:38,800
Speaker 2: It's it's it's become just sort of just sort of

1388
01:10:38,800 --> 01:10:42,160
Speaker 2: this common experience, right, and especially with our treatment model,

1389
01:10:42,760 --> 01:10:47,200
Speaker 2: with mental and behavioral healthcare treatment in the United States

1390
01:10:47,439 --> 01:10:49,760
Speaker 2: really all over the world, it's we've got these real

1391
01:10:49,920 --> 01:10:53,360
Speaker 2: high intense levels of care, right that are so needed

1392
01:10:53,360 --> 01:10:56,800
Speaker 2: and so appropriate, but what's happening is, you know, all

1393
01:10:56,800 --> 01:10:59,639
Speaker 2: of my folks are coming home to me from these

1394
01:10:59,640 --> 01:11:01,360
Speaker 2: places and they drop down, like you said, I'll see

1395
01:11:01,400 --> 01:11:03,960
Speaker 2: them an hour a week if I'm lucky, and there's

1396
01:11:04,040 --> 01:11:07,599
Speaker 2: too big of a gap. So I've been complaining about

1397
01:11:07,640 --> 01:11:10,599
Speaker 2: this for years and years and years. And about five

1398
01:11:10,680 --> 01:11:13,120
Speaker 2: years ago, I was on the phone with my mom

1399
01:11:13,840 --> 01:11:17,560
Speaker 2: really upset because yet another one of my clients was relapsing,

1400
01:11:17,920 --> 01:11:21,720
Speaker 2: and I felt ethically somebody should do something about this,

1401
01:11:21,840 --> 01:11:24,160
Speaker 2: like what's going on. She said, honey, you talk about

1402
01:11:24,160 --> 01:11:26,320
Speaker 2: this all the time, and I said I do, and

1403
01:11:26,320 --> 01:11:28,439
Speaker 2: she's like, yeah, you're always so upset that there's not

1404
01:11:29,040 --> 01:11:31,960
Speaker 2: anything to help people with what they need, like an

1405
01:11:32,360 --> 01:11:35,040
Speaker 2: in between, And I said I do, and she goes, yeah,

1406
01:11:35,240 --> 01:11:39,840
Speaker 2: So either you do something about it or hush. I said, okay, Mom,

1407
01:11:39,880 --> 01:11:44,040
Speaker 2: if that's your real name, damn it, all right, call

1408
01:11:44,080 --> 01:11:46,320
Speaker 2: me out on my shit. That's all right. Cool. So

1409
01:11:46,360 --> 01:11:49,439
Speaker 2: I hung up, and I was like, oh God, I

1410
01:11:49,520 --> 01:11:51,080
Speaker 2: have to do I have to do something. I have

1411
01:11:51,160 --> 01:11:54,080
Speaker 2: to do. There has to be something. So the answer

1412
01:11:54,160 --> 01:11:57,960
Speaker 2: to the perceived issue here I came up with what

1413
01:11:58,040 --> 01:12:03,080
Speaker 2: I call the collective. The collective is a new level

1414
01:12:03,080 --> 01:12:06,840
Speaker 2: of care. It's between higher levels of care like residential,

1415
01:12:07,400 --> 01:12:09,840
Speaker 2: partial hospitalization, I hope with things like that, right, which

1416
01:12:09,880 --> 01:12:14,480
Speaker 2: there is such a need for that absolutely, and outpatient,

1417
01:12:14,960 --> 01:12:18,000
Speaker 2: which is just seeing a therapist, kind of regular maintenance

1418
01:12:18,240 --> 01:12:22,120
Speaker 2: growth like more slower like slower growth, things like that.

1419
01:12:22,200 --> 01:12:25,439
Speaker 2: But it's it's so limited, right because we don't I mean,

1420
01:12:25,520 --> 01:12:28,240
Speaker 2: we're so overbooked and there's so much need on an

1421
01:12:28,240 --> 01:12:34,280
Speaker 2: outpatient level. So what the collective is called is EOP,

1422
01:12:34,600 --> 01:12:37,400
Speaker 2: which is Extended out Patient. It's and it's a set

1423
01:12:37,479 --> 01:12:41,519
Speaker 2: period of time, so it's only eight weeks, and the

1424
01:12:41,720 --> 01:12:46,280
Speaker 2: entire program is all centered around what we call a

1425
01:12:46,439 --> 01:12:51,080
Speaker 2: social health platform. Social health is not addressed anywhere. Nobody's

1426
01:12:51,120 --> 01:12:54,040
Speaker 2: talking about it. There is research on this, but it's

1427
01:12:54,080 --> 01:12:58,520
Speaker 2: not widely used, it's not commonly practiced. And my opinion,

1428
01:12:58,600 --> 01:13:03,400
Speaker 2: what I have been seeing is so many resources for

1429
01:13:03,560 --> 01:13:08,519
Speaker 2: mental health, emotional health, physical health, spiritual health, all the

1430
01:13:08,840 --> 01:13:12,000
Speaker 2: facets of human growth, but there's nothing to help folks

1431
01:13:12,040 --> 01:13:15,679
Speaker 2: develop socially. And that's where we're seeing the biggest deficit

1432
01:13:15,720 --> 01:13:19,400
Speaker 2: in this country right now, right is more isolation, more loneliness.

1433
01:13:19,439 --> 01:13:22,080
Speaker 2: And if it's true, if we're onto something here where

1434
01:13:22,120 --> 01:13:27,040
Speaker 2: there's so much physical, spiritual, mental, and emotional health issues.

1435
01:13:28,000 --> 01:13:31,040
Speaker 2: We're peeling back all of these issues to find the

1436
01:13:31,040 --> 01:13:35,400
Speaker 2: common denominator. It's separation, and it's isolation and its loneliness

1437
01:13:35,439 --> 01:13:38,160
Speaker 2: and it's othering and it's everybody feels so alone. And

1438
01:13:38,200 --> 01:13:41,360
Speaker 2: I think we all are figuring that out and seeing

1439
01:13:41,400 --> 01:13:45,040
Speaker 2: the fallout after twenty twenty and the lockdown and the separation,

1440
01:13:45,200 --> 01:13:48,880
Speaker 2: it became. It became so glaringly.

1441
01:13:48,360 --> 01:13:50,080
Speaker 1: Obvious it was to ignore it.

1442
01:13:50,080 --> 01:13:52,040
Speaker 2: It was too b It just blew up overnight and

1443
01:13:52,040 --> 01:13:53,960
Speaker 2: I thought, oh my god, now everybody's gonna see, like

1444
01:13:54,000 --> 01:13:56,360
Speaker 2: this is what we're talking about, right And I just

1445
01:13:56,400 --> 01:13:59,120
Speaker 2: started the Collective right before the pandemic, and I'm like,

1446
01:13:59,240 --> 01:14:02,000
Speaker 2: oh my god. My dad's an attorney and he's like, abort,

1447
01:14:02,200 --> 01:14:07,320
Speaker 2: get out, shut it down. You're like I looked at him,

1448
01:14:07,320 --> 01:14:10,400
Speaker 2: just kind of square in the eye, and I said, no, sir, no, no,

1449
01:14:11,120 --> 01:14:14,040
Speaker 2: because I feel like it was such a beautiful opportunity

1450
01:14:14,080 --> 01:14:16,920
Speaker 2: for everybody to come face to face what we've been

1451
01:14:16,920 --> 01:14:19,519
Speaker 2: dealing with all along, and it blew up in a

1452
01:14:19,560 --> 01:14:21,599
Speaker 2: way that, like you said, it could not be ignored.

1453
01:14:22,320 --> 01:14:25,200
Speaker 2: So the Collective is an eight week program. The groups

1454
01:14:25,360 --> 01:14:30,200
Speaker 2: that move through are closed, right, So any group work

1455
01:14:30,240 --> 01:14:32,120
Speaker 2: you do at a higher level of care, the groups

1456
01:14:32,120 --> 01:14:35,200
Speaker 2: are homogenius, right, So everybody in there is going to

1457
01:14:35,280 --> 01:14:37,479
Speaker 2: be just like you because again it's baby deer like,

1458
01:14:37,520 --> 01:14:39,479
Speaker 2: so you've got to have that mirrored back to you.

1459
01:14:39,800 --> 01:14:43,120
Speaker 2: Of course, that is absolutely what you needed at that

1460
01:14:43,160 --> 01:14:46,519
Speaker 2: point in the process. The collective exists and the groups

1461
01:14:46,520 --> 01:14:51,160
Speaker 2: are closed because it allows people to develop a sense

1462
01:14:51,200 --> 01:14:55,880
Speaker 2: of social health. Right. The groups are small, no more

1463
01:14:55,920 --> 01:14:59,439
Speaker 2: than eight people, and they're all mixed diagnostically. So we'll

1464
01:14:59,439 --> 01:15:02,840
Speaker 2: have folks there who are coming home from a rehab center.

1465
01:15:02,880 --> 01:15:05,760
Speaker 2: We're mixed with folks who are who are stepping up

1466
01:15:05,760 --> 01:15:08,679
Speaker 2: from an outpatient level, mixed with folks who have never

1467
01:15:08,720 --> 01:15:11,560
Speaker 2: been in therapy before. We'll have people with brand new diagnoses,

1468
01:15:11,600 --> 01:15:13,840
Speaker 2: We'll have people with no diagnoses. We'll have people with

1469
01:15:13,880 --> 01:15:16,400
Speaker 2: substance use issues, people with eating disorders, and people who

1470
01:15:16,479 --> 01:15:21,480
Speaker 2: just feel sad. Yeah right, but that's such a beautiful

1471
01:15:21,560 --> 01:15:23,519
Speaker 2: little microcosm of real life.

1472
01:15:23,560 --> 01:15:25,840
Speaker 1: That's real life, that's what you're talking about. It's like,

1473
01:15:25,920 --> 01:15:28,080
Speaker 1: these people don't all have to be just like me

1474
01:15:28,200 --> 01:15:29,599
Speaker 1: for me to be okay with these people.

1475
01:15:29,600 --> 01:15:31,439
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and so that's what we do, and we

1476
01:15:31,560 --> 01:15:34,960
Speaker 2: kind of teach people how to manage and own and

1477
01:15:35,000 --> 01:15:39,719
Speaker 2: be accountable for themselves in their life while in connection

1478
01:15:39,800 --> 01:15:42,360
Speaker 2: with other people who are doing the same thing. And

1479
01:15:42,520 --> 01:15:45,720
Speaker 2: what we're finding is that it's it's incredible, Kat, Like,

1480
01:15:46,560 --> 01:15:49,360
Speaker 2: the people who graduate this program are different human beings

1481
01:15:49,360 --> 01:15:51,320
Speaker 2: than the ones we met two months ago, and I

1482
01:15:51,320 --> 01:15:54,320
Speaker 2: think it's because they feel safe and they don't rely

1483
01:15:54,360 --> 01:15:56,639
Speaker 2: on the collective to make them feel safe. They don't

1484
01:15:56,640 --> 01:16:00,200
Speaker 2: rely on rely on therapy, they don't rely on sobriety.

1485
01:16:00,240 --> 01:16:03,519
Speaker 2: It's inside of them. They keep that they are squarely

1486
01:16:03,560 --> 01:16:05,960
Speaker 2: in charge of that, and there's so much peace and

1487
01:16:06,000 --> 01:16:09,679
Speaker 2: empowerment and everything just kind of calms down when that

1488
01:16:09,960 --> 01:16:13,040
Speaker 2: moves from an external locus of control to an internal one.

1489
01:16:13,439 --> 01:16:16,439
Speaker 2: It's pretty profound. So it's really cool to be a

1490
01:16:16,439 --> 01:16:19,320
Speaker 2: part of it. I love the name of it, the Collective.

1491
01:16:19,600 --> 01:16:22,880
Speaker 2: Everybody thinks it's like me and the staff that we're

1492
01:16:22,880 --> 01:16:26,759
Speaker 2: the collective, and I'm like, no, it's all of y'all. Yeah,

1493
01:16:26,800 --> 01:16:30,800
Speaker 2: it's everybody. Yeah, it's everybody. It's all of us. Yeah,

1494
01:16:30,920 --> 01:16:34,559
Speaker 2: we just work here. But the collective, it's the body

1495
01:16:34,560 --> 01:16:37,120
Speaker 2: of folks moving through this program and learning how to

1496
01:16:37,160 --> 01:16:40,440
Speaker 2: do community with each other, and then after each group graduates,

1497
01:16:40,479 --> 01:16:43,639
Speaker 2: after the eight weeks, we have this giant aftercare community

1498
01:16:43,680 --> 01:16:45,800
Speaker 2: where all of the groups get to be introduced to

1499
01:16:45,840 --> 01:16:49,599
Speaker 2: the folks who graduated before them, and they're continually introduced

1500
01:16:49,600 --> 01:16:51,960
Speaker 2: to all the people who graduate after them. So the

1501
01:16:52,000 --> 01:16:56,400
Speaker 2: network of like minded people can grow and grow and

1502
01:16:56,439 --> 01:16:58,599
Speaker 2: grow and grow, and they're all so different from each other,

1503
01:16:59,040 --> 01:17:03,479
Speaker 2: different walks of life, different socioeconomic backgrounds, different experiences, and

1504
01:17:03,520 --> 01:17:07,599
Speaker 2: it's the most beautiful healing calming. It's pretty incredible. It's

1505
01:17:07,640 --> 01:17:08,280
Speaker 2: pretty awesome.

1506
01:17:08,840 --> 01:17:11,800
Speaker 1: You know what is what I just thought of is

1507
01:17:12,600 --> 01:17:14,200
Speaker 1: did you ever go to camp as a kid?

1508
01:17:14,360 --> 01:17:14,559
Speaker 2: Yes?

1509
01:17:14,880 --> 01:17:19,120
Speaker 1: Okay, so I remember going to camps and I ended

1510
01:17:19,160 --> 01:17:21,840
Speaker 1: up in college, I volunteered at these camps and that's

1511
01:17:21,920 --> 01:17:24,240
Speaker 1: more of my experience than being an actual camper. But

1512
01:17:24,280 --> 01:17:28,479
Speaker 1: you go to this place that you're connected to all

1513
01:17:28,560 --> 01:17:33,080
Speaker 1: these people that are literally so different from you, and

1514
01:17:33,120 --> 01:17:35,680
Speaker 1: then you ask yourself, like, wait a second, how can

1515
01:17:35,720 --> 01:17:38,200
Speaker 1: I be like BFF with this person? Yeah, you know,

1516
01:17:38,400 --> 01:17:41,400
Speaker 1: like this is so wide and how But then you're like,

1517
01:17:41,479 --> 01:17:43,880
Speaker 1: I learned so much from this person and I don't

1518
01:17:43,880 --> 01:17:46,280
Speaker 1: want to let go of this person, And oh my gosh,

1519
01:17:46,320 --> 01:17:48,120
Speaker 1: I never would have met this person if there wasn't

1520
01:17:48,160 --> 01:17:51,040
Speaker 1: a place like this. And like when you say social health,

1521
01:17:51,040 --> 01:17:54,160
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh yeah, we're so separated in that and

1522
01:17:54,320 --> 01:17:57,439
Speaker 1: you're giving us and you're giving humans and experience to

1523
01:17:57,479 --> 01:18:00,759
Speaker 1: like go learn that we are allowed to be with people,

1524
01:18:01,200 --> 01:18:03,880
Speaker 1: Like we can take our camp friends home with us, yes,

1525
01:18:04,080 --> 01:18:05,720
Speaker 1: like they don't have to stay at camp. Sound like,

1526
01:18:05,760 --> 01:18:06,880
Speaker 1: we go to camp and that's where you can be

1527
01:18:06,920 --> 01:18:09,200
Speaker 1: friends with people that don't look just like you, dude.

1528
01:18:09,280 --> 01:18:12,439
Speaker 2: Camp friends are everywhere. They're everywhere. They're in your office,

1529
01:18:12,520 --> 01:18:15,200
Speaker 2: they're at your school, they live next door, they're everywhere.

1530
01:18:15,479 --> 01:18:18,599
Speaker 2: Because that's that's it, right, Like, instead of othering somebody

1531
01:18:18,640 --> 01:18:22,000
Speaker 2: because the shell is different, learn the skills and the

1532
01:18:22,040 --> 01:18:24,559
Speaker 2: tools to understand that on the inside, it's all exactly

1533
01:18:24,600 --> 01:18:26,599
Speaker 2: the same. We just want to love and be loved back.

1534
01:18:26,800 --> 01:18:30,560
Speaker 2: That's it. Yes, And let's coexist with different shells, but

1535
01:18:30,640 --> 01:18:32,920
Speaker 2: let's connect that the squishy inside part.

1536
01:18:33,160 --> 01:18:36,040
Speaker 1: Yes, Oh my god, all right, So thank you for

1537
01:18:36,080 --> 01:18:36,439
Speaker 1: being here.

1538
01:18:36,560 --> 01:18:39,000
Speaker 2: Oh my god, what an honor. Thank you for having me.

1539
01:18:39,120 --> 01:18:41,720
Speaker 1: We literally could stay here for three more hours, but

1540
01:18:42,160 --> 01:18:44,960
Speaker 1: for the sake of everybody's lives, we're not going to

1541
01:18:45,000 --> 01:18:47,240
Speaker 1: do that, So thank you for being here. I'm going

1542
01:18:47,280 --> 01:18:49,719
Speaker 1: to anybody who's listening who wants to know more about Courtney,

1543
01:18:49,720 --> 01:18:51,920
Speaker 1: who wants to know more about the Collective or anything

1544
01:18:51,920 --> 01:18:54,640
Speaker 1: that we've talked about. I will put links so you

1545
01:18:54,640 --> 01:18:58,080
Speaker 1: can just click something real easy and then be shot

1546
01:18:58,160 --> 01:19:00,759
Speaker 1: right to the interwebs of where that lives and connect

1547
01:19:00,760 --> 01:19:02,320
Speaker 1: in that way. That will be in the show notes.

1548
01:19:02,400 --> 01:19:04,240
Speaker 1: So just click on wherever you're listening to this, we'll

1549
01:19:04,240 --> 01:19:07,000
Speaker 1: be in there and give the Collective a follow. What's

1550
01:19:07,040 --> 01:19:08,240
Speaker 1: your Instagram handle for?

1551
01:19:08,320 --> 01:19:10,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's at my collective care.

1552
01:19:10,840 --> 01:19:14,439
Speaker 1: Okay, amazing, wonderful. Yes, we'd love to have you, and

1553
01:19:14,479 --> 01:19:16,400
Speaker 1: that's gonna do it for us. So thanks for listening.

1554
01:19:16,439 --> 01:19:18,559
Speaker 1: If you have questions, So, if you guys have any questions,

1555
01:19:19,120 --> 01:19:22,400
Speaker 1: any feedback, anything, send that to Catherine at Unique Therapy

1556
01:19:22,479 --> 01:19:26,519
Speaker 1: podcast dot com. Remember we do couch talks on Wednesday

1557
01:19:26,520 --> 01:19:28,600
Speaker 1: where I answer questions that you guys send to me,

1558
01:19:29,000 --> 01:19:31,639
Speaker 1: which usually ends up me being a person who's asking

1559
01:19:31,800 --> 01:19:34,320
Speaker 1: questions back to you. But if you have questions specifically

1560
01:19:34,360 --> 01:19:37,280
Speaker 1: about things we talked about in this episode, in this conversation,

1561
01:19:38,000 --> 01:19:41,360
Speaker 1: know that I welcome those. There's a lot in here

1562
01:19:41,479 --> 01:19:44,240
Speaker 1: there's a lot that I'm about to write down, so yeah,

1563
01:19:44,280 --> 01:19:47,960
Speaker 1: send your curiosity my way, and maybe Courtney will be

1564
01:19:48,000 --> 01:19:50,400
Speaker 1: back here again. I would love it, yes, all right,

1565
01:19:50,680 --> 01:19:52,360
Speaker 1: bye guys,