1 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:07,320 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Bridget and this is Annie, and you're 2 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: listening the stuff Bomb Never told you. And today we 3 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:24,479 Speaker 1: want to revisit one of my favorite Sminty episodes that 4 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 1: we've done here on the show, and that is the 5 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 1: topic of black women of Riot Curl. Um. This is 6 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 1: a topic that is near and dear to my heart 7 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:38,720 Speaker 1: as a black woman punk rocker myself. Um, I love 8 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:42,520 Speaker 1: riot curl music, punk music, all music, really, but punk 9 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 1: music has a a special place in my heart. And 10 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 1: this episode does too. Yeah, and it happens to coincide 11 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:53,200 Speaker 1: with another project that, um, you've been working on, Bridget, 12 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 1: and one that I'm very excited about and I think 13 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: that our listeners would be very excited about, I hope. 14 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 1: So I'm really excited to share it with y'all. So 15 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 1: you've ever listened to Sminty and thought, gee, I'd love 16 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:07,039 Speaker 1: to hear Bridget talk more about activism and music and 17 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 1: art and culture. Well, now's your chance. I am so 18 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 1: happy to announce a partnership between How Stuff Works and 19 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 1: Afro Punk called Afro Punk Solution Sessions podcast hosted by 20 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: yours truly and my good friend Eve's Jeff Cote. Um. Really, 21 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: what we want to do with afro punk is do 22 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 1: a deep dive in cultural and social and political identity 23 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 1: through things like activism and art and politics and dance 24 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 1: and all of that. And yeah, if you if you 25 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 1: know anything about afro punk, you know it's a huge, 26 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: vibrant global movement that has culture and arts festivals in Atlanta, Brooklyn, Paris, 27 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: Johannes Brooks, South Africa. Um. It really started from a 28 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: documentary called Afro Punk about black identity in punk spaces 29 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 1: and sort of what it's like being kind of double marginalized. 30 00:01:57,400 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: Um as many people of color who are involved in 31 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 1: these kinds of spaces find themselves, and from there it 32 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 1: really spun out into a cultural movement. Yeah. And I've 33 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:09,640 Speaker 1: had the pleasure of working on some of them and 34 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 1: also hearing it come together, and it's it's really beautiful 35 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 1: and powerful. I'm super proud and super pumped. And uh, 36 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 1: you did fantastic working on a bridge. Well, Anny, you 37 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 1: also did fantastic work on it. Because our gal Annie, 38 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 1: before I was ever even really in the mix. Spent 39 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: how long in Johannesburg, Um, I think seven days, about 40 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 1: eight days. Spent eight days in Johannesburg, South Africa. She 41 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 1: went with almost no notice to gather footage of Afro 42 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: punc Johannesburg and Solution Sessions Johannisburg, and it came out masterfully. 43 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 1: So it's really kind of a it's an interesting bedfellows 44 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 1: kind of project. If you listen to some of the 45 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:55,679 Speaker 1: other House Stuff Works podcasts, it's there's a lot of 46 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:59,919 Speaker 1: familiar voices involved, both in front of the scenes and 47 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:03,080 Speaker 1: behind the scenes. If you listen to Question booth Um 48 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 1: Our Own, Dylan Fagin is a producer on Afropunk. Annie 49 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 1: has her hands in the pot an afropunk Um. If 50 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:12,800 Speaker 1: you listen to Stuff of Life, Julie Douglas is involved 51 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 1: in Afro Punk. So it's really kind of a fun 52 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 1: collaborative project from some folks some of y'all might know 53 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:22,960 Speaker 1: if you listen to other shows on the network. Absolutely 54 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:25,640 Speaker 1: and if that hasn't gotten you excited enough, we have 55 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 1: a little, a little taste of a bit of a 56 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:31,359 Speaker 1: trailer for you right here. Are you tired of politicians 57 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 1: who make a lot of promises but don't get anything done, 58 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 1: fed up with white people constantly threatening to take away 59 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: your rights, Exhausted by being treated like you're less than human, 60 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 1: done with it being underestimated, sick and tired of being 61 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 1: sick and tired. Well, here at Afro Punk, we've got 62 00:03:47,080 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 1: the solutions be time. The American dream is being able 63 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: to walk out, work hard on your own and meet 64 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 1: the world on your own terms, and be celebrated for 65 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 1: being black and walking in that trip. It's very important 66 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: to me. It's important to have any kind of space 67 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:22,480 Speaker 1: affirms that they are not exclusionary, be an alternative to 68 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:28,839 Speaker 1: what is wrong represented as this sort of monolithic, singular 69 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 1: idea of black identity and popular culture. Because I've education 70 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:47,719 Speaker 1: has always been a tool for our collective liberation. We 71 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 1: have to teach our kids to build networks and build coalition. 72 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 1: So we educate our kids in this collective consciousness across 73 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:56,480 Speaker 1: multiple intersections of identity, then we can start to build 74 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:59,719 Speaker 1: our own institutions in our community. And you know, that's 75 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: really to me the answer m M. That is the 76 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 1: point of today's conversation to understand how it is that 77 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 1: we need to really band together, to come together, to 78 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:23,600 Speaker 1: have our coalition, to have our community life is not 79 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 1: just divisive, it's actually people are coming together overcoming racism 80 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:32,160 Speaker 1: operates on the belief that we can continue to address 81 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:37,239 Speaker 1: the symptoms of educational and equity, or we can finally 82 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:41,839 Speaker 1: address the cause, which is systemic racism. I think it's 83 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:47,040 Speaker 1: so important that we begin to shape the shame, the guilt, 84 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 1: to stand up for ourselves, to reclaim our bodies, reclaim 85 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:56,279 Speaker 1: our minds, reclaim our souls, and reclaim the the the 86 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 1: things that belong to us. To be proud of who 87 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 1: you are and know that your story is powerful. The 88 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:06,919 Speaker 1: solution sessions, it's where real world problems meet fearless solutions. 89 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 1: So yeah, if you are listening to that and you thought, gee, 90 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 1: my issue in life is that I'm not hearing bridget 91 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: Taut enough. I mean, I hate to say that, Like 92 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 1: if you know me, you know, like I'm I hate 93 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 1: self promotion, and even this feels very like, oh I 94 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:27,160 Speaker 1: hate this. But it would be really awesome if you 95 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: could subscribe, if you could rate and review us, because 96 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: that really does help um folks find the show and 97 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:35,160 Speaker 1: their feeds. And honestly, this is this is the kind 98 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:38,559 Speaker 1: of show that I've always wanted to make. I'm dating 99 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:41,480 Speaker 1: myself quite a bit here, but I remember when Apropunk 100 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: was first put on my radar I was in college, 101 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 1: was a sophomore in college, and people were sort of 102 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:49,040 Speaker 1: passing the DVD of the documentary around to the dorms, 103 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:51,279 Speaker 1: and you know, people were gathering in small groups to 104 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:54,119 Speaker 1: watch it. And for me, as a as a woman 105 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 1: of color who was interested in music and culture, it 106 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:01,360 Speaker 1: was like seeing myself reflected on screen. And you know, 107 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: I often felt like a bit of an odd duck 108 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, and watching the Appropunk documentary 109 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 1: that was one of the first times I thought, oh 110 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 1: my god, there's so many of us. It's not just 111 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 1: me who feels out of place all the time and 112 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 1: never feels like they quite fit in and is interested 113 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 1: in sort of what those conversations mean. So that sounds 114 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: like you, or if that sounds like a conversation that 115 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 1: you would be interested to have with us, please check 116 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 1: it out. You can find us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, 117 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts. And please listen, rate, subscribe, 118 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 1: review all of that, and yeah, please enjoy this collaborative 119 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: dream project of mine. Yes, your new Bridget. When you're 120 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 1: a college sophomore and you're watching the documentary, look at 121 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:48,480 Speaker 1: you now, Oh my god, College Bridget will be figger 122 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 1: pants right now. Maybe I did my pants out of happiness. 123 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 1: Maybe maybe you did. Um. Yeah, so please check that out, 124 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 1: and in the meantime, check out this. Uh. This the 125 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 1: old favorite of ours. If you've listened to Kristen and 126 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 1: Caroline tackle this topic. UM, We're gonna be doing it 127 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 1: a little bit different, so you can think of this 128 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 1: as really a companion piece to the really great episode 129 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: they put out um called Women and Punk Um. I 130 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 1: have been a long term love lover of all things punk, 131 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 1: really all things in music. In college, I was actually 132 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: a radio DJ at my local college radio station, w 133 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 1: u z m B, Greenville, North Carolina. Oh my god, 134 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 1: you've been behind the mic for a while. No wonder 135 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:35,680 Speaker 1: you look such sat for the podcast. Yes, I was DJ. 136 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 1: Cole Slaw was my handle, and that is a reference 137 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 1: to Enan Cole Slaw from the comic book ghost World. 138 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 1: And I DJ a radio show only punk music. So 139 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 1: I've been a big punk fan for a long time. 140 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 1: I've always loved to Riot Girl, and today I am 141 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 1: so thrilled to talk through some of the ways that 142 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:57,680 Speaker 1: black women have kind of sadly been erased in the 143 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:00,679 Speaker 1: history of punk music and the history of retail. Um, 144 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 1: the story behind what you might think of as riot 145 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:06,680 Speaker 1: girl and why that is. Yeah, and punk rock, I 146 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 1: think is typically thought of as a white thing. It is, right, 147 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: or at least it's predominantly even like punk rock of 148 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 1: the eighties and nineties. We think of a lot of 149 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 1: British bands that come to mind, like the Clash what 150 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 1: is It, the Sex Pistols, and even into the sort 151 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:28,840 Speaker 1: of nineties grunge, which I know is not technically the 152 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 1: same exact thing as punk. I'm no punk expert, but 153 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 1: I think of a lot of angry white people totally 154 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 1: and I think I think that perception does persist. And 155 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 1: I think that's fair because punk definitely has roots in 156 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 1: this hyper masculine um response to sort of white working 157 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 1: class frustration, particularly in the UK. So it's totally fair. 158 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean that there wasn't a place for 159 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 1: black musicians, particularly black women, in these movements. Um. There's 160 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,599 Speaker 1: this great quote from Day's magazine. There's no denying that 161 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 1: the UK ay punk scene was in part driven by 162 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 1: the anger and isolation felt by white working class But 163 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 1: punk music is not the sole property of whiteness. Even 164 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 1: though too many people of my generation. It may appear 165 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 1: that way at first glance. Like many fests of pop culture, 166 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 1: its historical image has been whitewashed. When you think about 167 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 1: punk's history, its bands like the Class, the sex Pistols, 168 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:22,080 Speaker 1: the Ramones that immediately come to mind, and so I 169 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 1: think it's important that even though yes, it may have 170 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 1: these roots in white frustrations of the working class, punk 171 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 1: music has the same kind of roots in black communities. Yeah, 172 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:36,839 Speaker 1: and in so many ways, as we've talked about music 173 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:41,839 Speaker 1: and cultural appropriation the past, o'mley comes to mind. But 174 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:45,319 Speaker 1: what I find really interesting about punk here is that 175 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: that article goes on to say that in many ways 176 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 1: black people were the original counterculture figures, and in so 177 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 1: many ways like rock and roll, has its roots in 178 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 1: black culture completely. I mean, if you've taken you know 179 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 1: class us is on on a cultural anthropology and where 180 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 1: punk and rock and roll come from. It really undeniably 181 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:09,560 Speaker 1: does have roots in black musicians, going back to folks 182 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: like Chuck Berry and Bou Didley. These are folks who 183 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 1: were really improvising, really trying a lot of new things, 184 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:16,959 Speaker 1: and a lot of why things like rock and roll 185 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 1: and then later punk, why they stuck around so so firmently. So, 186 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 1: for instance, there's always been this really obvious connection between 187 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:26,959 Speaker 1: punk music and you know, musical genres like reggae. I 188 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:29,680 Speaker 1: think that you can definitely hear their influence in there. 189 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 1: And it's just like this journalist Charlie Birken Hursts notes, 190 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:36,560 Speaker 1: the spirit of punk is present and always has been 191 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 1: in music made by black people. So really, when you're 192 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:41,959 Speaker 1: thinking of punk, is this white art form, it can 193 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:43,560 Speaker 1: just as easily be said to be a black art 194 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 1: form as well. Yeah, so that is interesting how when 195 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 1: you think of punk rock in particular, it has been whitewashed, 196 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 1: even though the roots of punk rock came from a 197 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 1: lot of black artists. If you think about rock and 198 00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 1: roll writ large, there's a lot of whiteness associated with 199 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:04,320 Speaker 1: rock and roll and with its spinoff of punk rock. 200 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 1: But in reality, a lot of that cultural appropriation started 201 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 1: way back in the fifties. So n y Use cultural 202 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 1: anthropologist Professor Maureen Mahn explains in this book what Are 203 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:19,960 Speaker 1: You Doing Here? A Black Woman's Life and Liberation in 204 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:23,199 Speaker 1: Heavy Metal. She says that it you know this, as 205 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: more white people started to be attracted to rock and roll, 206 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 1: black people started to think this is for them, not 207 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 1: for us. There were always black people participating and present, 208 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: but they had started to be outnumbered. So beyond the 209 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 1: sheer out numbering, white rock musicians often had more success 210 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 1: performing songs originally recorded by black blues, R and B 211 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:47,200 Speaker 1: and rock musicians. I'm thinking Elvis, right, Elvis became he 212 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 1: was the original Miley right, like, he became controversial, and 213 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:54,680 Speaker 1: he became known for the ways in which that white 214 00:12:54,760 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 1: Southern dude was basically embracing artistry that had originally really 215 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 1: been a black thing. Right. And if you've ever seen 216 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:05,079 Speaker 1: the movie dream Girls, which by the way, if you 217 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 1: haven't seen it, it's so good. Um. They illustrate this 218 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:11,359 Speaker 1: so nicely with the idea of they have this soulful 219 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 1: song that this majority that this black girl group you know, sings, 220 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:19,080 Speaker 1: and that when that song is re recorded by white 221 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 1: teenagers that sound very bubbly, it becomes an instant smash hit. Um. 222 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 1: And so I think, you know, there are so many 223 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:27,960 Speaker 1: illustrations of that throughout culture, but really it's it's just 224 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:32,320 Speaker 1: like Marine Mahomes says, this idea that it becomes something 225 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 1: that you then associate with whiteness, whether it actually has 226 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:39,319 Speaker 1: roots in whiteness alone, in regardless of that, it just 227 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 1: becomes something that you think of as white. And I think, 228 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 1: as someone who has been a long, you know, lover 229 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,079 Speaker 1: of all kinds of music, but specifically punk, that certainly 230 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:51,679 Speaker 1: jibs with my personal experience. You know, I grew up 231 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 1: feeling very isolated being like a black punk fan, particularly 232 00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 1: a black, a black female punk fan. But I grew 233 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 1: up feeling really self conscious for liking something that was 234 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:05,599 Speaker 1: quote unquote for white kids. Um I grew up. I 235 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 1: wouldn't say I was teased for it, but I was 236 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:11,840 Speaker 1: never very open about my my love of punk. And 237 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:14,439 Speaker 1: I like all all different kinds of music, but particularly 238 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: I really like punk, but I never felt comfortable talking 239 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 1: about it. When I would buy CDs at the record store, 240 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 1: I always remember feeling this kind of weird sense of 241 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 1: shame or I would sometimes, this is so embarrassing, but 242 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: I would sometimes ask, um. I remember I was buying 243 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: a Wheezer CD, and I asked, do you guys offer 244 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 1: gift wrapping? Because I didn't want the teller to be like, oh, 245 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:38,240 Speaker 1: why is this black girl buying a Wheezer CD? Has 246 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 1: that really been part of my and I think from 247 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 1: the research, you actually see a lot of black kids 248 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 1: who grew up feeling this way. Um, there's been an 249 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 1: entire movement started called the afro punk movement that started 250 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 1: as a collection of message boards online or other black 251 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 1: punk fans to find each other and connect and swap 252 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 1: stories and swap zines and swap CDs out. That whole 253 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 1: movement has grown into an international phenomenon. They have they 254 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 1: have a global festival, They have festivals in South Africa 255 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 1: and New York, Atlanta, Brooklyn, and it's really taken off 256 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 1: as this cultural thing now it's sort of it started 257 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 1: as sort of this thing that a lot of black 258 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: kids felt kind of anxiety around, but now it's sort 259 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: of the who's who, like the black glam glam folks 260 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 1: you see lots of You know, there was a spread 261 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 1: and Vogue magazine of the various fashions that afro punk 262 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 1: and performs there, and it's now it's this like very hip, 263 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: cool thing. But in the beginning, it definitely did not 264 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 1: feel that way. So would you say afro punk is 265 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 1: it different genre or is it a reclaiming of a 266 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 1: genre that had been whitewashed. I think it's a reclaiming, 267 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 1: and I think it's sort of carving out space for 268 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 1: these black punk fans who have long felt isolated, ignored, erased, 269 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 1: or just felt kind of weird about liking something that 270 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 1: has been associated so heavily with whiteness. It's a reclaiming 271 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 1: and a way of opening up space for those folks 272 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 1: to connect and meet each other and feel good about it. 273 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 1: So basically, what it comes down to is that black 274 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 1: folks aren't the people that we talk about when we 275 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 1: talk about punk music. And we're gonna talk about why 276 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: that's such a big problem after this quick break and 277 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 1: we're back. So the erasure of people of color from 278 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 1: depictions of the punk movement really came to a head 279 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 1: pretty recently, and it's criticism that the recent Riot Girl 280 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 1: collection at n y U s Fail Library and a 281 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 1: recent book of the same name chronicling the movement that 282 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 1: all but erased black women. Now, Christen and Caroline again, 283 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 1: they have this great episode all about the Riot Girl 284 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 1: movement and they mentioned this collection, this n y U collection, 285 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 1: in that episode. So wait, can you back up and 286 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 1: explain to me? Because I had not really heard the 287 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 1: term riot girl before today's episode, So what what is 288 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 1: Riot Girl all about? Yeah, So, according to Race and 289 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 1: Riot Girl, from a journal out of the University of 290 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 1: Washington's Department of Gender Studies, quote iyot Girls an international 291 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 1: underground feminist movement, mainly youth oriented, that initially emerged from 292 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:08,720 Speaker 1: the West Coast American alternative and punk music scene. Um, 293 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 1: you could think of that as bands like The Slits, 294 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:15,160 Speaker 1: the Raincoats, Heavens. To Betsy, this was really and Carol 295 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: Christen and Caroline shout out to them because they break 296 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:20,440 Speaker 1: this down so nicely. This was really a movement about 297 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:24,440 Speaker 1: young women getting to college feeling a little bit frustrated 298 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 1: with the lack of ability to talk about things they 299 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 1: were dealing with, things like sexual assault, things like sexism, 300 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 1: and expressing those frustrations through music. And in this case, 301 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 1: riot Girl is spelled with a bunch of rs in there, right, 302 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 1: so it's like a growl girl. Yeah. So these are 303 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:47,120 Speaker 1: like angry young women screaming, slash shouting, slash singing there 304 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:50,200 Speaker 1: their feels, which I think is a really cool artistic 305 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:55,880 Speaker 1: expression of uh, totally understandable and righteous anchor. Yeah. I mean, 306 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 1: i I'm just to be clear, I love Riot Girl. 307 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 1: I think a lot of we're gonna talk about in 308 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:05,119 Speaker 1: today's episode, critiques and pushes back on the whiteness of 309 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 1: the spaces that Riot Girl presented. But I really found 310 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 1: my voice through a lot of these screaming young women, 311 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 1: through folks like Kathleen Hannah was one of my idols, 312 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 1: through bands like Latigra. These were groups that that really 313 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:20,440 Speaker 1: were seminal in my development. So I don't want to 314 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:22,640 Speaker 1: come off like I'm trashing them, because I'm definitely not. 315 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 1: But I think it's important that we sort of I 316 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:30,359 Speaker 1: think back to the criticisms of the movement and why 317 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:33,120 Speaker 1: certain women maybe didn't feel as involved as they maybe 318 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:36,919 Speaker 1: could have or should have, and it actually really reflects 319 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:40,679 Speaker 1: the fractions within the feminist space more broadly. Right. I 320 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 1: think we've talked on this and this show, and by 321 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:46,639 Speaker 1: the way, I think we're screaming angry women on the 322 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 1: podcast Variety on occasion too. So I fully identify with 323 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 1: this artistry and this art form. But you know, we've 324 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 1: talked on this show before about the friction when it 325 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:02,879 Speaker 1: comes to movements to end racism and movements to end 326 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 1: sexism and the importance of intersectionality, and this is really 327 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 1: taking that intersectional feminist lens and bringing it to the 328 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:12,680 Speaker 1: punk music scene. Totally basically the same arguments that black 329 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 1: feminists and white feminists are having today and online spaces 330 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 1: and academia. Those same arguments were happening on the mosh pit, 331 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 1: you might say, during the riot girl movement, things like yeah, 332 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:27,199 Speaker 1: I mean, oh my god, I forgot about that. Have 333 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:30,159 Speaker 1: you ever been in a mosh pit? I've yeah, I've like, 334 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: not always consensually like I've been. I've born witness to 335 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:36,439 Speaker 1: a mash but I've been on the outer ring of 336 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:39,400 Speaker 1: a mosh pit. Oh man, I've been in a couple 337 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:41,199 Speaker 1: of mosh pits. I'll never forget seeing a friend of 338 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 1: mine break her nose taking an elbow to the face 339 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 1: at a no age hard I didn't take an elbow 340 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 1: to the nose. I saw my friends, which is hardcore, 341 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 1: was at the end of your concert out. I think 342 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:00,159 Speaker 1: she was like, we have to leave right now, like 343 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:02,360 Speaker 1: gushing blood from my notes, as like wait, I want 344 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 1: to see I want to stay. Oh my god. It's 345 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:09,440 Speaker 1: really these issues of intersectionality really coming to a head 346 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 1: in the riot cral spaces, the same things that I 347 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:15,359 Speaker 1: think a lot of feminists still grapple with today, things like, um, 348 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:18,480 Speaker 1: issues of the white middle class women being elevated over 349 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:21,440 Speaker 1: those of women of color, things of having to choot, 350 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:23,159 Speaker 1: feeling like you have to choose between your race and 351 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:25,679 Speaker 1: your gender as opposed to having that be, you know, 352 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: an intersectional framework. These are the same arguments we're having today, 353 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:30,159 Speaker 1: and they were the same arguments playing out in the 354 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 1: riot cral scene. That's fascinating to see how it applies 355 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 1: to totally different subsets of society, of the artistic and 356 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 1: musical variety. Right. And this article by Gabby bess and 357 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:45,920 Speaker 1: broadly called alternatives to Alternatives, the Black Girls riot ignored, uh, 358 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:52,120 Speaker 1: really underscores the experience of being let's say, a young 359 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:56,639 Speaker 1: black punk fan like you Bridget and reading these things 360 00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:02,119 Speaker 1: like Newsweek article that literally to find the movement, the 361 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:05,679 Speaker 1: riot girl movement as something that was quote young, white, 362 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:10,879 Speaker 1: suburban and middle class, basically literally erasing black women or 363 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:15,879 Speaker 1: women who didn't fit any of those categorizations. Um. And 364 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:19,879 Speaker 1: it just sort of confirmed the explicit whiteness that was 365 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 1: brought to the riot girl scene by journalists who are 366 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:25,639 Speaker 1: covering it and describing it to those who might not 367 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 1: have been in it exactly and a line that resonated 368 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 1: with me so much from that article. There were black 369 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 1: women who imbibe with the spirit of punk in their 370 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 1: bones outside the riot girl movement as well. These women 371 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:39,720 Speaker 1: carved out their own feminist pathways into the hardcore scene 372 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:43,479 Speaker 1: precisely because they were rendered invisible by the riot girl movement. 373 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 1: And what I think jumps out at me at that 374 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 1: quote is that because black women were marginalized both by 375 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 1: the larger punk scene, you know, with lots of white dudes, 376 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:55,120 Speaker 1: and through the riot girl scene that emerged from that scene, 377 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 1: which is mostly white women. Um, they really were forced 378 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 1: to carve out their own pathway for expression and kind 379 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 1: of build these alternatives to the alternatives alternative, Right If 380 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:07,880 Speaker 1: if punk is an alternative and riot Girls an alternative 381 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 1: to punk, these black women had to say, Okay, We're 382 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 1: making another alternative to all those different alternatives. It's again 383 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:18,119 Speaker 1: existing at the intersection of being a black woman in 384 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:21,639 Speaker 1: a space that makes all women marginalized and then further 385 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:26,359 Speaker 1: makes women of color not feel included in that space 386 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 1: that was carved out for women in a male dominated 387 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:32,720 Speaker 1: space exactly. Um, there's a really famous black feminist theorist 388 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 1: called named Pat Hill. Collins, and she has this great 389 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:39,200 Speaker 1: theory called the matrix of domination, which basically means that 390 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,880 Speaker 1: as black women are marginalized women, all of our oppression 391 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:45,680 Speaker 1: is interconnected and sort of magnified because it's interconnected. And 392 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:49,199 Speaker 1: in reading about you know, black punk women that just 393 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 1: I was thinking about that theory like jumping up in 394 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,920 Speaker 1: my head as I was reading. One of these black 395 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:57,640 Speaker 1: punk rockers who was interviewed for this article really sort 396 00:22:57,640 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 1: of hit the dail on the head. She said, the 397 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 1: double burden of being a black girl who has to 398 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:03,640 Speaker 1: deal with the white girls in the scene on top 399 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 1: of being a girl who has to deal with the 400 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,439 Speaker 1: white boys who dominated the mosh pit at punk shows. 401 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 1: And so again you can see how it's this double 402 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 1: bind of having to deal with the isolation from these 403 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 1: white guys in mosh pits who were awful, and having 404 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 1: to deal with these white riot girls who could also 405 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:24,640 Speaker 1: be awful in their own ways. It sounds like, as well, yeah, 406 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 1: and can we explore what we mean by being awful 407 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 1: just a little bit here too, because it doesn't take 408 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:34,200 Speaker 1: explicit intent to be awful in this case, what we're 409 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 1: really talking about is not being inclusive, and that is 410 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 1: just as awful because you're basically erasing the right of 411 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:44,639 Speaker 1: women of color in this case to exist in a 412 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 1: space that doesn't even acknowledge their present exactly. UM, one 413 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 1: of the punk rockers interviewed in this article, really talked 414 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 1: about how for her this idea that a lot of female, 415 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 1: white female riot girls had that you know, I want 416 00:23:57,760 --> 00:23:59,480 Speaker 1: to do a mosh pit where it's gonna be safe, 417 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 1: it's just gonna be women. She'd actually talked about how 418 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:04,359 Speaker 1: she never felt unsafe because she was a woman. She 419 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 1: felt unsafe because she was black, and the the conversation 420 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 1: that was going on around UM women in punk scenes 421 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 1: and how they were treated totally forced her to erase 422 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,879 Speaker 1: her blackness, even though that's impossible. And so it's just 423 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:18,640 Speaker 1: like what you said. When I say awful, I mean 424 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:23,720 Speaker 1: just not keeping in mind um inclusivity and intersectionality when 425 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:27,399 Speaker 1: you're talking about this, and then also making marginalized women 426 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 1: feel like they should be grateful for even being included 427 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 1: at all, saying, you know, oh, the fact that you 428 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 1: were even invited into this scene. It doesn't matter if 429 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 1: we overlook you or erase you or completely don't even 430 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:40,399 Speaker 1: speak to your issues. You should be thankful to be 431 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: here at all. And I see that large in the 432 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 1: feminist movement a lot those tensions definitely, And I think 433 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 1: that also became such an issue when Riot Girl was 434 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:55,199 Speaker 1: treated in a retrospective light more recently so at that 435 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 1: n y U collection. Looking back at Riot Girl, UM, 436 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 1: I find it really fascinating to say that, UM. Now, 437 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 1: with it becoming this sort of symbol that we can 438 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 1: look back on for punk and women in punk, the 439 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 1: fact that women of color being left out even in 440 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:17,919 Speaker 1: retrospection is truly problematic. It doubles down on that experience 441 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,879 Speaker 1: of ignorance, It doubles down on that exclusion of women 442 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,199 Speaker 1: of color being invited to even look back on that 443 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 1: era and look back on that movement and look back 444 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 1: on the rise of the punk scene. And as Mimi 445 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 1: t Win, Professor of Gender Studies and Women Studies and 446 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,879 Speaker 1: Asian American Studies at the University of Illinois, Urbana Champagne 447 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 1: put it, quote, with Riot Girl now becoming the subject 448 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 1: of so much retrospection, I argue that how the critiques 449 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,400 Speaker 1: of women of color are narrated is important to how 450 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:54,359 Speaker 1: we remember feminisms and how we produced feminist futures. If 451 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 1: riot Girl fell apart because of a race riot. How 452 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 1: is this to be remembered as catastropefic melee, as course correction, 453 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 1: as a brief interruption, And how then are we to 454 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 1: face the future with certain progress having been achieved or 455 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:13,680 Speaker 1: with violence including a ratire, deferral or annexation not having ended. 456 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:18,439 Speaker 1: So basically, what she's saying is looking back on this movement, 457 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:20,960 Speaker 1: how we talk about race impacts, how we can all 458 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,639 Speaker 1: move forward, if in either an inclusive or not so 459 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 1: inclusive way. Definitely. And I struggled with this a little 460 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: bit because I love a lot of these Riot Girl figures, 461 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: and why I loved them is because they talked openly 462 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 1: about things that weren't pretty and weren't great and weren't easy. 463 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 1: They talked about sexual assault, they talked about, you know, 464 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,639 Speaker 1: the patriarchy. They talked about things that weren't easy, and 465 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 1: it's I see them now, and I really wish I 466 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:47,480 Speaker 1: had seen more artists using race and conversations around race 467 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 1: in their art in those ways. Um, but one musician 468 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 1: that I really want to shout out and who was 469 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 1: really Siminar in black punk and the Riot Girl and 470 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,880 Speaker 1: alternative movements that sprang up for black women is Tamark 471 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:02,399 Speaker 1: Lle Brown. She's an artist who has performed with bands 472 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 1: like Fishbone, which is another seminal mostly black punk band, 473 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 1: and other acts like Outcasts shout out to them because 474 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 1: we're here in Atlanta. And she even was the face 475 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,680 Speaker 1: of the documentary about afro Punk, So if you if 476 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,440 Speaker 1: you bought that movie that DVD, she is the woman 477 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,680 Speaker 1: on the cover um And she's actually talked about how, 478 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:24,640 Speaker 1: even though she is associated with the afro punk movement now, 479 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 1: back in the day, like in the nineties in New 480 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:30,200 Speaker 1: York City, she didn't have the benefit of an online 481 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 1: message board for black punks and it was a totally 482 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:36,359 Speaker 1: isolating experience for her. And she writes about how sort 483 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 1: of riot Girl at the time just wasn't speaking to 484 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:41,400 Speaker 1: her issue. She was a black woman living in these 485 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:45,119 Speaker 1: really intense urban environments that were infested with crime, and 486 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,119 Speaker 1: she didn't feel safe. And so this idea that riot 487 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:54,400 Speaker 1: Girl for her represented this sort of um safe, sanitized 488 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,960 Speaker 1: version of white womanhood that just did not jibe with 489 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:00,440 Speaker 1: what she was experiencing, which is being a aqu woman 490 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,639 Speaker 1: with a shaved head having to exist in these you know, 491 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 1: very tough streets and sort of lived day to day. 492 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,639 Speaker 1: She didn't see her own experiences being reflected in the 493 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 1: music that Riot Girl was putting out right, And I 494 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 1: love the way that she described that frustration as saying, quote, 495 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:20,199 Speaker 1: riot girl felt like a bubble gum expression. You know, 496 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:22,400 Speaker 1: she's talking about having to be out in the world 497 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,639 Speaker 1: and just survive. I have to survive. I have to 498 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:31,359 Speaker 1: defend myself, she said, not not like her counterparts, who 499 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 1: were sort of the white punk artists in the riot 500 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:36,920 Speaker 1: girl scene, saying things like you just think I can't 501 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 1: play because I'm a girl, you know. She really described 502 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 1: it as being a really, uh, a lack of equivalence, 503 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 1: and in terms of the complaints that she was talking 504 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 1: about and sort of the frustration and anger that she 505 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 1: brought to her punk artist ry versus some of what 506 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,240 Speaker 1: was more mainstream in the riot girl movement. Totally, and 507 00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 1: I think we should talk more about Brown her eventual 508 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 1: contributions to the riot girl scene in the alternatives that 509 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 1: sprang up after this quick break and we're back, and 510 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 1: we were just talking about how black women feeling isolated 511 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 1: from the punk and riot girl scenes, we're really forced 512 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 1: to carve out their own spaces as an alternative to 513 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,000 Speaker 1: the Riot Girl scene that did not seem very inclusive 514 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 1: to them. And what I love about this is that 515 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 1: it starts with a party, like most good things in life. 516 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:34,120 Speaker 1: Um Brown met up with other rockers like Maya Glick 517 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 1: and Honey Child Coleman and eventually organized something called Sister 518 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 1: Girl Riots, a series of d i y punk shows 519 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 1: for black women as an alternative to the punk scene 520 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 1: that was dominated by white men and the Riot Girl 521 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 1: scene dominated by white women. Their first show was Valentine's 522 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 1: Day of and it sounds lit. I just love the 523 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 1: like reclaiming of the name to Sister Girl with the 524 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 1: hard Girl in there too, which is a great way 525 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 1: to sort of highlight the sisters involved in the scene 526 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 1: right like black women in the scene. And one have 527 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:12,000 Speaker 1: good fun facts about the Sister Girl Riots is that 528 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 1: they made space for white ally ships, so they really 529 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 1: went out of their way to be inclusive Um, even 530 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,480 Speaker 1: more so than I would say Riot Girl as a 531 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: movement had been for black women or for women of 532 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 1: color in the punk scene. So iconic feminist punk band 533 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 1: UM sort of lead the Slitzes are up. One of 534 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 1: your favorite musicians so much she performed as a you know, 535 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 1: as a white woman in the Riot Girl scene. She 536 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 1: performed as an opener at a Sister Girl ally. Um, 537 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 1: so it's it's really interesting to see that behavior of 538 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 1: inclusivity modeled through the Sister Girl riots. And so you 539 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: might be thinking, why does anyone care about this? Who cares? 540 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 1: No Black women in punk? Sure? Why is it an issue? 541 00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 1: But it's an issue because of representation really doesn't matter. 542 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,560 Speaker 1: If you listen to our Lisa Simpson episode, you know 543 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 1: that it's important for people of all kinds to see 544 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,720 Speaker 1: themselves reflected in different spaces, and growing up, I never 545 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 1: saw myself reflected in this this scene that I loved 546 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 1: so much and that connected that I connected with so much. 547 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 1: And so having these conversations now and going back and 548 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 1: lifting up the examples of black women in the punk 549 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 1: scene is very, very important. And I think that someone 550 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 1: who noted this very well is Laurnda Davis, who is 551 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 1: the president of the Black Rock the Black Rock Coalition. 552 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:31,840 Speaker 1: She argues for the necessity of more representation, not just 553 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:34,080 Speaker 1: for black women in punk, but for black women in general. 554 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,560 Speaker 1: She writes, I never looked at a magazine and thought 555 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 1: that that was what I was supposed to look like. 556 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:40,560 Speaker 1: On the one hand, it's actually kind of liberating to 557 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 1: to not be the standard for what womanhood is. That 558 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 1: standard put a lot of women in boxes, and they 559 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:48,680 Speaker 1: lived their lives trying to get out of that box. 560 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,120 Speaker 1: Black women were never even allowed in the box. I 561 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,959 Speaker 1: wasn't looking at a TV saying, oh, that represents me. 562 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:56,880 Speaker 1: I wasn't listening to music telling me about my experience. 563 00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 1: I had experiences that told me I wasn't concerned with 564 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,760 Speaker 1: these things that the happy songs were about. And so 565 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:06,000 Speaker 1: I think that quote really nails it for me. Why 566 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 1: it's so important to see yourself reflected, why representation really 567 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 1: does matter in media of all kinds, including music totally. 568 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,720 Speaker 1: And I think it's any episode about the history of 569 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,560 Speaker 1: black women and punk would be we be ever missed 570 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 1: and not mentioned that one of the songs that I 571 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 1: think of as the feminist punk battle cry is actually 572 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 1: we have it because of a black woman. Um you 573 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 1: probably know the song. It's O Bondage Up Yours by 574 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,760 Speaker 1: the X ray Specs, and they had this amazing black 575 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 1: woman uh singer called poly Styrene, which is a pawn 576 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 1: on sort of the plastic thing that you get your 577 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:45,520 Speaker 1: hamburgers wrapped in um. And really, what I think makes 578 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 1: this song such a feminist battle cry is the opening lines, 579 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 1: which if you know the song, you know how it 580 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 1: goes well, which we're going to play. Yeah, our listeners, 581 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: you should definitely put it um. It starts with her 582 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 1: saying really quietly, some people think that little Girl should 583 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 1: be seen and not heard, but I say, and then 584 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 1: it turns into this intense, intense screech oh, bondage up 585 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 1: yours and it's just an amazing song. You'll hear it soon. 586 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 1: It's so great. If you don't know it, you're gonna 587 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 1: love it. Some people think little Girl should be sin 588 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:22,120 Speaker 1: and not heard, but I think bondage the ass, won't, 589 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 1: I say, Fay. And what I love is not only 590 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 1: the artistry that she brings to her music, but also 591 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:56,080 Speaker 1: her background, her story um they hear. In The Independent, 592 00:33:56,280 --> 00:34:00,240 Speaker 1: they write of Polly as a dumpy, frumpy, m most 593 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 1: wilfully unsexual girl from Brixton with braces on her teeth. 594 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:09,600 Speaker 1: Polly Styrene was a perfect candidate to find herself through punk, 595 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 1: turning this persona on its head into an art form. 596 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:16,919 Speaker 1: She became one of the movement's principal female figures. Her 597 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,839 Speaker 1: song Oh Bondage up yours a feminist rallying cry, I 598 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 1: love it so much. And even Kathleen Hannah's, who was 599 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 1: often cited as an early originator of riot Girl, although 600 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 1: she would probably push back against that title, she often 601 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:33,240 Speaker 1: cites Polly as a major musical influence. In Polly's obituary 602 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,360 Speaker 1: in The New York Times, Kathleen Hannah was quoted as saying, Polly, 603 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 1: it's the way for me as a female singer who 604 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,719 Speaker 1: wanted to sing about ideas. Her lyrics influence everyone I 605 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 1: know who makes music, and I think that's so important 606 00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,719 Speaker 1: when you have this person who was often cited as 607 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 1: a seminal figure in punk, who went on to do 608 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,799 Speaker 1: all these really important female lead projects like Latigue and 609 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 1: Pakimi Kill, saying, Oh it wasn't for Polly and ex respects, 610 00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 1: these folks might not even be here. And let's talk 611 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:04,280 Speaker 1: a little bit it now about some black women artists 612 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:06,200 Speaker 1: in the punk scene now that we should all be 613 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:09,000 Speaker 1: paying more attention to, because for me, I think the 614 00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:12,280 Speaker 1: confines of what qualifies as punk or after a punk 615 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,800 Speaker 1: can be more blurry than um. I don't know, I 616 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,000 Speaker 1: feel like for me, as I think less of an 617 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 1: audiophile than you be, it can be a little bit 618 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,480 Speaker 1: blurry to understand exactly what punk we should be checking 619 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:28,360 Speaker 1: out now. So what artists would you recommend our listeners? If? 620 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 1: If you're yeah, if you're interested in more rock music 621 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:34,879 Speaker 1: from black ladies, there's a lot of your in luck, 622 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:37,600 Speaker 1: it's a great time for it. Um. One band that 623 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,080 Speaker 1: I have to sort of shout out is the Alabama Shakes. 624 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 1: Alabama Shakes is fronted by a black woman. Their hit 625 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,279 Speaker 1: song Don't Want to Fight one Grammys for Best Rock 626 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:49,160 Speaker 1: Song and Best Rock Performance, and when they won, it 627 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:51,520 Speaker 1: was the first time a black woman had one or 628 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:56,720 Speaker 1: been nominated in those categories since Tracy Chapman in It's Crazy, 629 00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:00,400 Speaker 1: And shout out to Tracy Chapman because like four speaking 630 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 1: of formative black women in my in my musical history 631 00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:08,000 Speaker 1: as punk, Tracy Chapman, she's more She's not really punk, 632 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:12,320 Speaker 1: she's more rock. I don't know, yeah, not aren't me. 633 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:15,839 Speaker 1: Another band to checkout is a feminist punk band from 634 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:19,480 Speaker 1: London called Big Joanie Um. The lead singer of this 635 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:22,080 Speaker 1: band actually has a ted X talk about being a 636 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:25,480 Speaker 1: black feminist and punk of course, called O Bondage of 637 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,919 Speaker 1: Yours definitely check out and you might not even think 638 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:31,319 Speaker 1: of them as punk. But two artists that I love 639 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:35,360 Speaker 1: that you should definitely check out if you are Beyonce 640 00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 1: and Solange Knowles. Beyonce used to really be thought of as, 641 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:42,040 Speaker 1: you know, just a pop musician, but with her seminal 642 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:45,279 Speaker 1: album Lemonade, she was actually nominated for a Grammy for 643 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:48,239 Speaker 1: her song Don't Hurt Yourself in the category of Best 644 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:51,600 Speaker 1: Rock Performance and perform. Yeah. I don't think people really 645 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 1: know this about her, but that album really was a 646 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:58,319 Speaker 1: big step in terms of her branching out and sort 647 00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:02,160 Speaker 1: of people opening their opening the door for other kinds 648 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:05,520 Speaker 1: of music to be considered um rock. That track she 649 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:09,040 Speaker 1: co created with Jack White from White Stripes, right, so 650 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:11,719 Speaker 1: he or he was at least sampled on that track too, 651 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:16,799 Speaker 1: and he is like, the White Stripes is rocket for sure. Um. 652 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,400 Speaker 1: I know there was a lot of noise when Beyonce 653 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:22,279 Speaker 1: was nominated in a rock category from people who were 654 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:26,760 Speaker 1: probably super hardcore traditional rockers, but according to Recording Academy 655 00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:30,839 Speaker 1: Senior Vice president Bill Frymouth, he told Metal Injection, I 656 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:32,759 Speaker 1: think what we found this year is that so many 657 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:35,680 Speaker 1: artists that have that were in rock or rock adjacent 658 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:38,320 Speaker 1: were taking more sonic risk this year than ever before, 659 00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:40,920 Speaker 1: and it made for a really exciting, dynamic landscape in 660 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,759 Speaker 1: that field. That Beyonce recording has Jack White in it, 661 00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:46,560 Speaker 1: and it has Led Zepplin samples and in it. I 662 00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,040 Speaker 1: think it's Beyonce really stretching. It's an artist at the 663 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:51,360 Speaker 1: height of her musical powers, and it's really reaching in 664 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:54,440 Speaker 1: many different directions and we're all better for it. And 665 00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:59,719 Speaker 1: I just love it's so great sonic risk. I love 666 00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:03,600 Speaker 1: that let's all take more sonic risk. Let's all be 667 00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:07,440 Speaker 1: more like Beyonce in all ways. UM. And again, Beyonce 668 00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:10,880 Speaker 1: isn't the only Knowles family member who is known for 669 00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:14,360 Speaker 1: taking those kinds of risks. UM. Probably my favorite album 670 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:16,480 Speaker 1: of the last five years is Solange Knowles as a 671 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:18,680 Speaker 1: Seat at the Table. If you haven't listened to it, 672 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:21,719 Speaker 1: turn off this podcast and put it on. It will 673 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:24,840 Speaker 1: turn their life. UM. But basically, she talks about how 674 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,359 Speaker 1: one of the seminal songs on that album was really 675 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:31,080 Speaker 1: rooted in exactly the kind of things that we're talking about. UM, 676 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:33,520 Speaker 1: the isolation that she felt as a black woman interested 677 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:36,040 Speaker 1: in punk and alternative music. So in an interview, she 678 00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:39,160 Speaker 1: explained how the song fo Boo really has punk rock roots. 679 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:41,239 Speaker 1: She says, what I think of fu Boo and the 680 00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,480 Speaker 1: album as a whole, I think of punk music and 681 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,600 Speaker 1: how white kids were allowed to be completely disruptive, allowed 682 00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:49,360 Speaker 1: to be an anti establishment and express rage and anger. 683 00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:51,319 Speaker 1: They were allowed to have the space to do all 684 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,000 Speaker 1: of that, even if it meant being violent or destroying property, 685 00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:57,480 Speaker 1: and that wasn't exactly inclusive to us. If we created 686 00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:00,440 Speaker 1: the groundwork for rock and roll, if we were inclusive 687 00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:02,479 Speaker 1: and we were violent and a string property and able 688 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:04,359 Speaker 1: to express that kind of rage, that it would not 689 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:06,600 Speaker 1: be allowed in the same way. And so even though 690 00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:08,560 Speaker 1: Fubu is not a song that you might think of 691 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,120 Speaker 1: a traditionally punk, it really is rooted in exactly what 692 00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:14,200 Speaker 1: we're talking about today, this feeling of isolation that a 693 00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:17,080 Speaker 1: lot of black kids grew up feeling looking at their 694 00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:21,160 Speaker 1: white punk counterparts. And Fu Boo stands for something for us, 695 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:23,680 Speaker 1: by us, And it reminds me of the way that 696 00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:26,520 Speaker 1: we talk about protests a little bit, like I've seen 697 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:30,160 Speaker 1: that mirrored in Oh this is such a peaceful, non 698 00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:35,320 Speaker 1: violent protests full of white women on on the women's strike, 699 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:40,560 Speaker 1: contrary to Black Lives Matter protests that we've gotten violent 700 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:43,960 Speaker 1: in the past, and it's like, well, violence is not 701 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:47,520 Speaker 1: seen as threatening all the time when it comes from 702 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:52,280 Speaker 1: a white kid setting up trash can on fire, whereas 703 00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:57,239 Speaker 1: at a predominantly black demonstration, like the same kinds of 704 00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:00,600 Speaker 1: behaviors are framed really differently and seen as more threatening. 705 00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:03,280 Speaker 1: And think about I've always I think that's a great example, 706 00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:07,720 Speaker 1: and I've always thought, you know, threatening behavior gets threatening behavior. 707 00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:09,520 Speaker 1: And so when I was at the Women's march, I 708 00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:12,200 Speaker 1: didn't see things like tanks, I didn't see an oversized 709 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:14,200 Speaker 1: police presence. And so if you go to a Black 710 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,839 Speaker 1: Lives Matter march or rally, the fact that those things 711 00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:20,480 Speaker 1: are already there before it even starts, I think, kind 712 00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:23,879 Speaker 1: of becomes an indicator for what kind of climate they're 713 00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:28,640 Speaker 1: already preparing for. It's like a ratcheting up that happened exactly. 714 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:31,440 Speaker 1: Both interesting. Well, I think that's such a great point 715 00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:34,239 Speaker 1: about punk, because punk is violent and it's undertones, right, 716 00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:38,720 Speaker 1: it's about expressions of anger and outbursts, and so creating 717 00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:43,240 Speaker 1: a space for black women in particular to buck gender 718 00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:47,680 Speaker 1: norms and to buck racial norms of what's expected and 719 00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:54,120 Speaker 1: what's tolerated in a really angry artistry. Um is important. Yeah, 720 00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:57,000 Speaker 1: I mean, what's more punk rock than growing up in 721 00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:00,440 Speaker 1: a situation where you are dealing with microaggressions all day along. 722 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:03,080 Speaker 1: I think back to myself coming home in junior high 723 00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:05,920 Speaker 1: and turning on my stereo and just rocking the f 724 00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:09,160 Speaker 1: out some some punk music and just getting that out 725 00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:10,799 Speaker 1: at the end of the day. And I think it's 726 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:13,360 Speaker 1: important for black kids to be able to do that 727 00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:16,000 Speaker 1: and have that space the same as their white counterparts. Yes, 728 00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:19,359 Speaker 1: so's minty listeners, We want to hear from you. What 729 00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:23,279 Speaker 1: is your favorite way to rock out, to punk rock 730 00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:26,879 Speaker 1: or to let loose and lets let your sort of 731 00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:33,680 Speaker 1: music expression, share your frustration with the patriarchy or with injustice. 732 00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:39,040 Speaker 1: How are you musically uh letting your punk flag fly nowadays? 733 00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:42,600 Speaker 1: So we want to hear from you black punk bands 734 00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,879 Speaker 1: and punk fans of all of all stripes. You can 735 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:48,400 Speaker 1: hit us up on Instagram at stuff mom ever told you. 736 00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:50,920 Speaker 1: You can tweet at us at mom Stuff podcast, or 737 00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:52,880 Speaker 1: you can send us an email at mom Stuff at 738 00:41:52,880 --> 00:42:02,520 Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com. Two th