1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,480 Speaker 1: In my book, I document this early moment in the 2 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: White House during the transition between the Obama and the 3 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:11,200 Speaker 1: Trump administration, where Obama's Homeland Security advisor was organizing this 4 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 1: disaster exercise for the Trump transition team and she was 5 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:19,760 Speaker 1: going over several crises, several deadly disasters, one of which 6 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: was a pandemic, and Miller's predecessor, Cecilia Munos, she was 7 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 1: sitting right next to Miller, and she noticed that he 8 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: was pecking away at his phone the whole time, and 9 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: she felt like he wasn't paying attention. And you know, 10 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: she's not a big fan of the Trump administration, but 11 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 1: she wanted them to know what to do in the 12 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: event of a deadly crisis. So she turned to Stephen 13 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 1: Miller and she asked him, is there anything that I 14 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 1: can help you with? And he responded immediately yes, And 15 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 1: I'm paraphrasing, but essentially his words were, I want to 16 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 1: know how do I make sure that I'm the one 17 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: pulling the strings on immigration policy? How do I make 18 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: sure that national security experts are not interfering with what 19 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 1: I want to do on immigration? And that's how he 20 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: ended up approaching his position. Over the course of his 21 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: time at the White House. 22 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 2: From Futuro Media, It's Latino USA a Maria Josan Today 23 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 2: a look at the man behind President Trump's immigration cracked out. 24 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:39,119 Speaker 2: Since the early days of the Trump administration, Stephen Miller 25 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 2: has been hard at work transforming the United States immigration system. 26 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 2: Miller has been the driving force behind the Trump administration's 27 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 2: most controversial policies, from family separation. 28 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 3: It was voices like this little girl's heard in a 29 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 3: recording first obtained by Pro Publica that provided a glimpse 30 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 3: into the consequences so the directive issued in. 31 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 2: April to slashing the number of asylum seekers and refugees 32 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 2: allowed into the United States. 33 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:11,239 Speaker 4: Under this new rule, any migrants coming up from Central 34 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 4: America through the southern border would have to have sought 35 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 4: asylum in one of the other countries they passed through 36 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:18,959 Speaker 4: in order to be eligible here in the US. 37 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 2: To dramatically restricting immigration into the United States during the 38 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 2: coronavirus pandemic, bringing it to an almost complete halt. Miller 39 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:35,919 Speaker 2: grew up in California during the nineteen nineties. As a teenager, 40 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:39,959 Speaker 2: he fell in with right wing media personalities and developed 41 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:46,919 Speaker 2: a reputation for opposing multiculturalism at his high school. After college, 42 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:50,639 Speaker 2: Miller got into politics as a communications staffer for right 43 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 2: wing politicians, including the former Minnesota congress Member Michelle Bachman 44 00:02:56,080 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 2: and Alabama Senator Jeff Sessions. Miller's rise to power is 45 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 2: chronicled in the new book Hate Monger Stephen Miller, Donald Trump, 46 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 2: and the White Nationalist Agenda by Jing Guerrero, who's an 47 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 2: investigative reporter based in southern California. Guerrero spent much of 48 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 2: the Trump administration reporting on immigration and the US Mexico 49 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 2: border for the San Diego NPR affiliate KPDS. She traces 50 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 2: Miller's rise through more than one hundred and fifty interviews, 51 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:32,920 Speaker 2: including many with Miller's friends, family members, and colleagues, and 52 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 2: as the November election approaches, the book takes a closer 53 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 2: look at a man who has become one of the 54 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 2: most powerful members of the Trump White House and the 55 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 2: right wing ideas and mentors who have shaped him. Jan 56 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 2: Guerrero joins me now to talk about Stephen Miller's California 57 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 2: roots and what does immigration policies have looked like on 58 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 2: the ground in borner communities. Jin Gueretto, Welcome to Latino USA. 59 00:03:58,240 --> 00:03:59,119 Speaker 1: It's great to be here. 60 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 2: So, Gene, when is it that you decide to pivot 61 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 2: from reporting on the border in San Diego to basically 62 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 2: focusing on digging into Steven Miller in his life And 63 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 2: what made you want to do that? 64 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: I mean, for me, it was a result of reporting 65 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:20,039 Speaker 1: on the family separation practice. I'd been interviewing all of 66 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:23,279 Speaker 1: these parents whose children had been pulled from their arms 67 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 1: by US officials, including a father from Malsalvador with a 68 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 1: one year old boy named Matteo, who was locked up 69 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:33,679 Speaker 1: for eight months without seeing his boy, and he hadn't 70 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 1: broken any laws, he had no criminal record, not. 71 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 2: Being able to hug them, kiss them, play with them. 72 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 1: At least four Central American men in this o time 73 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: Masage Detention Facility say officials took their children from them 74 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:52,839 Speaker 1: after they arrived at the border asking for asylum. You know, 75 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: the White House was saying that the separation policy was 76 00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:59,719 Speaker 1: about law and order. But I was on the ground 77 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: and at the busiest port of entry in the US, 78 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 1: and I knew that they were also separating people who 79 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:10,719 Speaker 1: hadn't broken any laws. And for me, that raised the question, 80 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 1: if this isn't about law and order? Then what is 81 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 1: it about? And that's kind of what led me to 82 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: turn to Stephen Miller, who is the man who was 83 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 1: crafting these policies. And then the more I learned about him, 84 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 1: the more fascinated I became, like, how does a Jewish 85 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 1: American who is a descendant of refugees and who grew 86 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 1: up in California at the same time that I did, 87 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:39,840 Speaker 1: how does that person come to craft Trump's harshest policies 88 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 1: targeting asylum seekers and refugees people like his great grandparents. 89 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:52,480 Speaker 2: So would you say that when you first started thinking 90 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:55,919 Speaker 2: about Stephen Miller and thinking about who he was in 91 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 2: the context of the policies that you were seeing reflected 92 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 2: on the ground, did you come at it with a 93 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:04,799 Speaker 2: kind of open mind, Because the title of your book 94 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:06,840 Speaker 2: is Hate Longer Right. 95 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 1: I really approached this project with an open mind. I 96 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:15,360 Speaker 1: don't believe in straight up villains. And what was surprising 97 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 1: to me is that the more I got to know 98 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 1: Steven Miller, the less complex he became. To me. It's 99 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: a case study in radicalization. It's what happens when someone 100 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:32,160 Speaker 1: is consumed by an ideology and ends up the most 101 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:33,920 Speaker 1: powerful advisor in the White House. 102 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 2: So Stephen Miller is raised in Santa Monica, California. But 103 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 2: Stephen Miller was actually a child when California was at 104 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:49,280 Speaker 2: a very different point in terms of its understanding of demographics. 105 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 3: In nineteen ninety four seven tried to stop immigrants living 106 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:57,719 Speaker 3: in California illegally from getting healthcare, public education, and other 107 00:06:57,800 --> 00:06:58,840 Speaker 3: social services. 108 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 2: And this is the case California that Stephen Miller and 109 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 2: I guess you were growing up in. Exactly was that 110 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 2: a central part of his radicalization? 111 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, so white people in California became a minority in 112 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 1: that decade, and there was just this incredible backlash against 113 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 1: brown people as a result of that. You had Republican 114 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 1: Governor Pete Wilson blaming all of the state's problems on 115 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 1: what he called the invasion at the border. You had 116 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: these advertisements running, you know, with this ominous voice. 117 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 2: They keep coming. Two million illegal immigrants in California. 118 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 4: The federal government won't stop them at the border, yet 119 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 4: requires us to pay billions to take care of them. 120 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 1: And in addition to Prop One eighty seven, which really, 121 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 1: you know, was a devastating blow to migrant children, except 122 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 1: that it was ultimately ruled unconstitutional, there were attacks on 123 00:07:56,680 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 1: affirmative action, there were attacks on bilingual education, and Miller 124 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 1: was really a product of that environment, in part because 125 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 1: he himself was going through a tumultuous period at home 126 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 1: with his family, and according to my conversations with people 127 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 1: who knew him, he was sort of looking for someone 128 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 1: to blame. And that is when Miller starts to express 129 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 1: these extremely conservative and contrarian viewpoints. Breaking up with one 130 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 1: of his friends because of his Mexican heritage, for example, 131 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: he ends up going to Santa Monica High School, this 132 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:37,200 Speaker 1: really diverse public high school, where he would go around 133 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:41,839 Speaker 1: telling his Mexican classmates to speak English. At one point, 134 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: he ends up running for student government on a platform 135 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 1: that was clearly meant to rile up some rage. Am 136 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: I the only one. 137 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 2: Who is sick and tell a tool to pick up 138 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:56,599 Speaker 2: my trash and we have plenty of talent. 139 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 1: People watching that beach. They thought it was clearly racist 140 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 1: because there's like a handful of custodians for this very 141 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 1: large school, and most of them were people of color, 142 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 1: So it struck people as almost like he was trying 143 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 1: to incite a riot. One of the student government leaders 144 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 1: had to push him off the stage because she thought 145 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 1: that people were going to just start brawling as a 146 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:24,720 Speaker 1: result of Miller's rhetoric. And what's really important to highlight 147 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 1: is that, like as all of this was happening, Miller 148 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: had started to be mentored by these two local right 149 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 1: wing figures who ended up playing a critical roles in 150 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 1: his career. And those people are David Horowitz and Larry Elder. 151 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 2: And you got to talk to both David Horowitz and 152 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 2: Larry Elder about Steven Miller. So how did they end 153 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 2: up mentoring this kid from Santa Monica, which you know 154 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 2: is basically a pretty liberal place. 155 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, so I obtained private correspondence between these two men 156 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 1: and Steven Miller that showed that they really helped indoctri 157 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: nate him as a teenager. And starting with Larry Eldert, 158 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 1: so he's he calls himself the stage from South Central. 159 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: He's this black conservative, longtime talk radio and TV host. 160 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 5: What about black racism, black bigotry, and black anti semitism? 161 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 1: And he believes that black people are more racist than 162 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 1: white people and that racism against people of color is 163 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 1: no longer a serious issue. So Miller calls into Elder's 164 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 1: radio show when he's in high school to complain about 165 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 1: his school, and Elder told me he was very impressed 166 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:43,200 Speaker 1: with how articulate Miller was as a young man. He 167 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: was impressed with how Miller dressed in a very formal way, 168 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 1: and he decided that he was going to have Miller 169 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: on more regularly, and they basically from that point on 170 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 1: became lifelong friends, with Elder reassuring Miller that he wasn't 171 00:10:57,320 --> 00:10:59,359 Speaker 1: being racist in his actions. 172 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 2: And who's David Horowitz? 173 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 1: He's a former Marxist. 174 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 4: Maybe wondering how it came to be that an. 175 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 3: Agnostic Jew, an ex radical would write a book about 176 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 3: the war to destroy Christian. 177 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 1: America who ended up becoming a conservative writer. He runs 178 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 1: this group called the David Horowitz Freedom Center, and Horowitz 179 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: teaches young conservatives that the political left poses a literal 180 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: existential threat to America because of their allyship with Muslims, 181 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 1: black people, and others, all of whom happened to be 182 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 1: people of color. The Southern Poverty Law Center identifies him 183 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:46,440 Speaker 1: as anti Muslim and an anti immigrant extimist, but he 184 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:49,680 Speaker 1: insists he's not a white notionalist. He's not racist. He 185 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 1: sees himself as colorblind. So Stephen Miller heard about David 186 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 1: Horowitz through one of his conservative friends, and he ended 187 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 1: up reaching out to him to invite him to speak 188 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 1: at Santa Monica High School. And Horowitz had actually heard 189 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:09,679 Speaker 1: Stephen Miller on the Larry Elder Show and also been 190 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:12,960 Speaker 1: taken by him, and so he agreed to come to campus, 191 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:17,320 Speaker 1: and after they met, Horowitz ends up becoming like this 192 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 1: father figure to Stephen Miller. Stephen Miller ends up graduating 193 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 1: from Santa Monica High and moving on to study political 194 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 1: science at Duke University, and he ends up inviting David 195 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 1: Horowitz to speak. 196 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:33,960 Speaker 2: Making this event happen was not easy. 197 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:41,079 Speaker 3: We besieged many departments, many institutions at Duke University for funding. 198 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 1: Many of them wanted nothing to do with us. And 199 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 1: then that's when Horowitz comes to tell students that they 200 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 1: are being indoctrinated by their teachers into hating America, the. 201 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 5: The basement of the university, the abysiness standards of the university. 202 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 1: He rails against indoctrination, meanwhile indoctrinating Stephen Miller through high 203 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 1: school and through college and encouraging him to believe that 204 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 1: he had to save the country from certain destruction. Through 205 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:18,080 Speaker 1: all of this, Miller was seen as sort of a pariah. 206 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 1: You know, people just kind of roll their eyes, dismissed him. 207 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:23,679 Speaker 1: He just seems so out there that they didn't think 208 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 1: he could ever really come to power. He graduates without 209 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 1: a job, but Horowitz ends up connecting him with Tea 210 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 1: Party Congresswoman Michelle Bachmann, later with John Shadeg of Arizona, 211 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 1: and finally with Alabama Senator Jeff Sessions. So, as you 212 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 1: can see, Horowitz essentially sets Miller up career wise. 213 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 2: Coming up on Latino Usay, we talk with author Jin 214 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 2: Gerero about how Stephen Miller got obsessed with immigration. Stay 215 00:13:56,160 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 2: with us, yes, Hey, we're back. And before the break, 216 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 2: we were talking with author Jin Guerrero about the right 217 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 2: wing figures who helped launch Stephen Miller's career in politics. 218 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 2: A few years after arriving in Washington, d C. Miller 219 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 2: joined the Trump campaign as a is the advisor and speechwriter. 220 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 2: With the support of conservative allies like Jeff Sessions and 221 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 2: Steve Bannon, Miller eventually rose to become one of the 222 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 2: president's most trusted and longest lasting advisors. Let's get back 223 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 2: to the conversation with Jing Guerrero, So Larry Elder, David Horowitz, 224 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 2: these people who shape Stephen Miller's ideology early on. They're 225 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 2: very interested in race and divisions between the left and 226 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 2: the right. But these guys are not necessarily focused on 227 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 2: the issue of immigration. But Stephen Miller ends up becoming 228 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 2: totally obsessed with zeroing in on immigrants and refugees. So 229 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 2: how does that happen? 230 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 1: You know a lot of the white nationalist literature that 231 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 1: he was reading, some of which Horowitz told me that 232 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 1: he believes that he's the one who introduced Miller to 233 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 1: a lot of it. Sees immigration and limiting immigration as 234 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 1: a way to protect white male supremacy and as a 235 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 1: way to protect against white genocide, this conspiracy theory that 236 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: people of color systematically replacing white people. But the very 237 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 1: first time that it came onto his radar was when 238 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 1: he was at Duke University, when he decided to organize 239 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 1: an event with Richard Spencer, who is now a well 240 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: known neo Nazi. They invited Peter Brimlow, who is a 241 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: white nationalist who founded this website called v Dare, and 242 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 1: he's obsessed with immigration as a way of keeping the 243 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 1: country white, like limiting immigration in order to keep the 244 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: country white. And that is when Stephen Miller first is 245 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 1: introduced to the immigration issue as an important part of 246 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: his belief system. And when he's working with Michelle Bachman, 247 00:16:56,200 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 1: there was an incident where a woman who was thendocumented. 248 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:04,399 Speaker 1: She ends up hitting a school bus with her car 249 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 1: and people die, and Stephen Miller latches onto this tragedy 250 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:14,119 Speaker 1: to say that it could have been avoided if only 251 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:16,360 Speaker 1: this woman had been deported, if only people had paid 252 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:19,440 Speaker 1: attention to her immigration status and deported her. And that 253 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:22,120 Speaker 1: is when he started to realize like the power that 254 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 1: immigration had as a way of inciting anger, Like he 255 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 1: realized that this was also like a very powerful tool. 256 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:31,159 Speaker 1: And then from that point on it was sort of 257 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:34,680 Speaker 1: like falling into this rabbit hole. I think he gets 258 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,119 Speaker 1: to Jeff's Sessions office and one of the very first 259 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 1: things that he has to do is craft sessions communications 260 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 1: around Sonia Soto Mayor being confirmed to the Supreme Court, 261 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 1: and became very obsessed with the fact that she was Latina. 262 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 5: So I think it's noteworthy that when I ask about 263 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 5: Judge Soto Mayors now find a statement that it was Latina. 264 00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 5: Would come to a better conclusion than others. 265 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: Trying to characterize that as being a you know, a 266 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 1: disqualifier because it allegedly made her a bias judge. 267 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 5: Judge sotomayown, we were required into how your philosophy, which 268 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:16,639 Speaker 5: allows subjectivity in the courtroom, affects your decision making. 269 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:20,160 Speaker 1: So I think he just increasingly starts to become more 270 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 1: and more obsessed with immigration. 271 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 2: So you write about how he was the brains behind 272 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 2: many of the Trump administration's most controversial policies, these things 273 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:32,880 Speaker 2: that he imagined and said, let's put this into effect, 274 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 2: you know, this whole closing down the borders to asylum seekers, 275 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 2: forcing them to remain in Mexico by policy, And you 276 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 2: were actually watching these policies unfold on the ground, you 277 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 2: were in de quat and San Diego. So tell us 278 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:52,240 Speaker 2: what you see as Miller's impact on our immigration system 279 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:53,440 Speaker 2: as it is right now. 280 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:59,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, he has narrowed the focus of the Department of 281 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 1: Homeland Security, which has a very broad mandate to protect 282 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 1: the American people from domestic terrorism and public health crises 283 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 1: like the one that we're seeing, to really focus on 284 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 1: sifting out poor people and people who are seeking asylum 285 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 1: and refuge in this country. Mostly these are refugees from 286 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:23,959 Speaker 1: African countries and asylum seekers from Central America who are 287 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 1: his primary targets. And I can't tell you how many 288 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 1: mothers I've interviewed who have been stuck, and many of 289 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 1: them are stuck in Tijuana with their children, terrified, having 290 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 1: come all the way from Central America and Haiti and 291 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:46,919 Speaker 1: the Democratic Republic of Congo and found themselves being told 292 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 1: we're not taking anyone else. 293 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:49,879 Speaker 2: We're full. 294 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 1: You know, Trump continues to paint this as a law 295 00:19:55,560 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 1: and order approach, but anything that Stephen Miller is when 296 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 1: you connect the dots, as I did in my book, 297 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:08,360 Speaker 1: between what he's doing and where he's drying motivation from, 298 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 1: it isn't about national security. It's about race. 299 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 2: You said that at the beginning, you approached Stephen Miller 300 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,880 Speaker 2: with an open mind. So was there a turning point 301 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 2: for you when you basically said, no, it really is 302 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:27,200 Speaker 2: all about race for this guy. 303 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: For me, it happened when I read this book called 304 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 1: The Camp of the Saints, which is a white supremacist 305 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 1: book that Stephen Miller promoted in twenty fifteen while he 306 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:44,959 Speaker 1: was working for Sessions, by recommending that Breitbart do an 307 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:49,439 Speaker 1: article characterizing the book as prophetic, and the book is 308 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: about the destruction of the white world by non white people. 309 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: Non white people are described in really horrific, animalistic terms 310 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 1: are meant to incite hatred in the reader, calling them monsters, 311 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 1: and the book explicitly calls for hate and violence against 312 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:15,879 Speaker 1: those characters. Knowing that Steven Miller promoted that book, for me, 313 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:19,439 Speaker 1: that was a turning point where I realized that the 314 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 1: emotion that Miller is fluent in the language that Miller 315 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 1: speaks is hate. And you know, as journalists, we're very 316 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 1: careful about using labels like racist and xenophobic because we 317 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 1: don't know what people are thinking most of the time. 318 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 1: And I think for the most part that's been really good. 319 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:42,119 Speaker 1: But I think that it's also our reluctance to call 320 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 1: things what they are has also created space for white 321 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 1: supremacists to operate within our institutions with impunity. And so 322 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: in my book, I show how Miller is laundering a 323 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:58,400 Speaker 1: white nationalist agenda through the language of economics and heritage 324 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 1: and national security. 325 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 2: You ended up speaking with more than one hundred people 326 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:05,879 Speaker 2: for this book who knew Steven Miller and know him personally, 327 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 2: but you never did get a chance to speak to 328 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:11,159 Speaker 2: Miller himself. Why was that. 329 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:14,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, I reached out to Stephen Miller and the White 330 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: House right away. You know, at first they were acting 331 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:21,960 Speaker 1: like they were thinking about it, but eventually they stopped responding. 332 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:25,719 Speaker 1: And I mean, he was always very careful about like 333 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 1: not wanting to be seen as the mastermind behind all 334 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 1: of this, because he knows that that upsets Trump. And 335 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 1: I think it's possible that the fact that I was 336 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 1: writing an entire book about him was what turned him off, 337 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 1: just because he assumed that it was going to, you know, 338 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:46,240 Speaker 1: make his role a little bit more higher profile than 339 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:49,120 Speaker 1: he would like. Because Trump likes to think that he's 340 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 1: the one in charge, and Stephen Miller's really good at 341 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:54,639 Speaker 1: making Trump believe that that's the case. 342 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 2: So people are thinking about what's going to happen in 343 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 2: November this presidential election. There's a lot of concern about 344 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:06,920 Speaker 2: the state of our democracy. Given that you've spent more 345 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,439 Speaker 2: time than most people thinking about Steven Miller and what 346 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 2: he's imagining. What do you think is next for him 347 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,399 Speaker 2: in terms of the border and the immigration and refugee system. 348 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,439 Speaker 1: You know, the Trump administration, so far has focused on 349 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 1: targeting immigrants. I believe that if they win in November, 350 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 1: they are going to be much more focused on expanding 351 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:31,119 Speaker 1: their targets to include black people, to include other people 352 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: of color, and to include progressives, some of which we 353 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 1: are already seeing today. Like Trump for a long time 354 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 1: kind of shied away from using any like explicitly negative 355 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:44,920 Speaker 1: language to talk about black people, but lately that's been changing. 356 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 1: And if you see, like David Horowitz Miller's mentor, he 357 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:51,880 Speaker 1: talks about how Black Lives Matter is a Nazi organization 358 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 1: of terrorists, I think we're going to see more of 359 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,159 Speaker 1: that rhetoric coming out of Trump. I mean, Trump is 360 00:23:56,160 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 1: already calling Black Lives Matter the symbol of hate. And 361 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,199 Speaker 1: you know, if trumpluses, I think Miller is always going 362 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 1: to have allies in the far right, a nativist movement. 363 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,199 Speaker 1: The question is whether that movement is going to be 364 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:15,880 Speaker 1: relegated to the fringes again after November. 365 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 2: Jin Giretto, thank you so much for your work. We 366 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 2: appreciate it. 367 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:24,400 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. 368 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 2: Maria Jean Guerrero's book Hate Monger, Stephen Miller, Donald Trump, 369 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 2: and the White Nationalist Agenda is out now. This episode 370 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 2: was produced by Alisa Scarse and edited Sophia Palisaka. The 371 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 2: Latino USA team includes Miel Massis, Luis Trees, Julieta Martinelli, 372 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 2: Gini Montalbo, and Alejandra Salasa, with help from Andrea Lopez Russado, 373 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:15,480 Speaker 2: adrian Na Dabiev and Raoul Perez. Our engineers are Stephanie Lba, 374 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 2: Julia Caruso and Lia shab Our. Director of Programming and 375 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:22,959 Speaker 2: Operations is Natalia fide Juz. Our digital editor is Amandel Cantra. 376 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 2: Our New York Women's Foundation Ignite fellow is Julia Rocha. 377 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:30,119 Speaker 2: Our theme music was composed by Zenia Renos. If you 378 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:32,399 Speaker 2: like the music you heard on this episode, stop by 379 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 2: Latino Usa dot org and check out our weekly Spotify playlist. 380 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,440 Speaker 2: I'm your host and executive producer Maria j. Josa. Join 381 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:41,880 Speaker 2: us again on our next episode, and in the meantime, 382 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 2: look for us on all of your social media. Hi 383 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 2: los BeO aasta proxima Ciao. 384 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:54,640 Speaker 6: Latino Usa is made possible in part by California Endowment, 385 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 6: building a strong state by improving the health of all Californians, 386 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 6: the John D. And can T. MacArthur Foundation, and the 387 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 6: Heising Simons Foundation Unlocking Knowledge, opportunity and possibilities. More at 388 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 6: hsfoundation dot org. 389 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:21,679 Speaker 2: I'm Maria no Hossam. Next time on Latino USA, we 390 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 2: break down the spell of Ima Sumac, the famous Peruvian diva, 391 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:29,640 Speaker 2: an inca princess known as the Queen of Exotica. She's 392 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,880 Speaker 2: adored around the globe, but heavily criticized in her home 393 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:37,120 Speaker 2: country because of the stereotypes she portrayed. That's next time 394 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:39,400 Speaker 2: on Latin U USA.