1 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:07,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from hostal corks 2 00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Caroline 3 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:18,640 Speaker 1: and I'm Kristen. Um. Something interesting about our topic today 4 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 1: is the link, the gendered link between women and stealing stuff, 5 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: which called me ignorant, Kristen, But I really did not 6 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:33,160 Speaker 1: know that the origins of the concept of kleptomania lay 7 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 1: with ladies. Yeah, I didn't know that either. First of 8 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: let's just offer an umbrella view of shoplifting in the 9 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: United States. There's a lot of people do it, a lot, 10 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:48,160 Speaker 1: so many people in fact, that it costs US retailers 11 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 1: ten billion dollars a year, but they only catch about 12 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: twenty four per cent of them. But among all of 13 00:00:55,280 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 1: those shoplifters, very few would qualify as kleptomaniacs. Yeah, there 14 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:04,960 Speaker 1: is a difference between just somebody who shoplifts or steal 15 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: stuff and an actual kleptomaniac. The word itself comes from 16 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:14,400 Speaker 1: the Greek cleptin to steal, although it was first called 17 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 1: klopomania and was coined in eighteen sixteen by Andrew Mathai, 18 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 1: a Swiss doctor, who defined it as both a desire 19 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: for theft and theft without need, and this very sensitive 20 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 1: doctor used it to describe thieves who impulsively stole unneeded 21 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 1: items out of quote unquote pure insanity. Yeah. And then 22 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:35,120 Speaker 1: a little while later in eighteen forty, a pair of 23 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: French doctors later changed the word to kleptomania to describe 24 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:46,279 Speaker 1: behaviors characterized by irresistible involuntary urges. And the two points 25 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: about theft without need and the involuntary urge is gonna 26 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 1: be something really important when it becomes applied specifically to women, 27 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 1: because kleptomania is often thought of as a woman's disease, 28 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 1: because us two thirds of diagnosed kleptomaniacs are women, right, 29 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:07,279 Speaker 1: and we should look at this as we have pointed 30 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 1: on in other issues of the mind that we have 31 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 1: talked about before, Women tend to present with more psychological 32 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 1: issues like this because they tend to go seek actual 33 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: mental health help more than men do. Yeah. Some wonder 34 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: whether there is a gender bias at work in terms 35 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: of that diagnosis of kleptomania more for women, since women 36 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 1: who steal tend to get a psychiatric evaluation, whereas men 37 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:38,640 Speaker 1: who steal tend to get prison time. Well, we are 38 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 1: very delicate flowers, So thank god. Um anyway, kleptomania, it 39 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 1: turns out we're right when we say that it's not 40 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 1: necessarily that more women than men experience kleptomania. We both 41 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,960 Speaker 1: get it, but we get it differently. This is coming 42 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: from a two thousand eight study and seeing us spectrums. 43 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:00,800 Speaker 1: They looked at nine adults for two thousand one to 44 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 1: two thousand seven with kleptomania. Both men and women showed 45 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 1: substantial symptoms, but women were more likely to be married, 46 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:13,359 Speaker 1: have a later age at shoplifting onset, steal household items 47 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 1: and hoard those stolen items, and have an eating disorder. 48 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 1: They were less likely, however, to steal electronics than men 49 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 1: and less likely to have another impulse controlled disorder. So 50 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 1: those researchers concluded that when it comes to kleptomania that 51 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:32,240 Speaker 1: they really need to take gender into account in terms 52 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 1: of devising prevention and treatment strategies. But I mean, it's 53 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: almost impossible to disentangle gender and women from kleptomania because 54 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 1: if we go back in time to when the term 55 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: was being developed and passed around, it was something that 56 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 1: developed as an answer to the rise of shoplifting. Specifically 57 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: among women. And the sources that were about to cite 58 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: are Tammy C. Whitlock's Crime, Gender and Consumer Culture in 59 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 1: the nineteenth century England and an essay and they're called 60 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: Solving the Problem of the Criminal Consumer Women in Cleptomania, 61 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 1: And then the book by Elaina Stabelson When Ladies Go 62 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 1: a Thieving, which I love the title of it sounds 63 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 1: like we should write a song about it. Indeed. But 64 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: so these these sources talk about the rise of not 65 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 1: only shoplifting, but kleptomania in particular, as kind of a 66 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:30,039 Speaker 1: symptom of the times. Uh, A lot of things, a 67 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 1: lot of conditions were being medicalized that previously had you 68 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 1: would have just gotten hanged for. But so let's look 69 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: at what's going on. We've got the industrial revolution, right, 70 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:41,159 Speaker 1: so goods were being made in bulk in factories, not 71 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:44,279 Speaker 1: at home. This leads to the rise of the consumer 72 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: culture and the middle class who suddenly has a lot 73 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 1: of leisure time. Can you tell that I'm glossing over 74 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:51,599 Speaker 1: a lot of stuff? Well, so, during this time, women 75 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 1: are still responsible for doing most of the consuming and 76 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 1: acquiring goods for the family. But with this rise in 77 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 1: new goods, you know, bulk items. You have these new 78 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: department stores or the precursors to department stores that offered 79 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: a kind of freedom in this titilating environment of of items. 80 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 1: So how do we explain at this time, women, these 81 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 1: middle class women who were well off, how do we 82 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:21,360 Speaker 1: explain them stealing? Well, we do that in the language 83 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 1: of physical and mental illness. Yeah, early in the nineteenth century, um, 84 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 1: there was an idea that this compulsive shoplifting only affected 85 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:36,679 Speaker 1: women and why because certainly had to do with uterine 86 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 1: disease or pre menstrual tension. That was I mean, those 87 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 1: were the explanations at the time. And uh, there was 88 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 1: a quote talking about how it began as a genderless, 89 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:49,839 Speaker 1: if not classless ailment. But then the cliptomania diagnosis slowly 90 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 1: developed throughout the nineteenth century to become the favored explanation 91 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 1: for cases of female middle class shoplifting, because it would 92 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 1: have been so handles for a middle class woman to 93 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: be sent to jail as a common criminal. So if 94 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 1: you were a poor woman at the time and you 95 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:09,599 Speaker 1: got caught stealing, then you were just stealing and you 96 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 1: got sent to jail because you were a thief. But 97 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:14,160 Speaker 1: if you are were a woman of any means whatsoever, 98 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:20,279 Speaker 1: then you were simply being sort of uh compelled by 99 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 1: your crazy uterus to steal something, and so you needed 100 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 1: medical treatment, not prison time. And for Jane Austen fans 101 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 1: out there, her aunt was one of the first big 102 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: shoplifting cases that affected because she was a middle class 103 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 1: woman and she was caught stealing a spool of lace 104 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 1: from a store. And at the time, cleptomania really was 105 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 1: not a term that had been widely circulated. But after 106 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:52,599 Speaker 1: the fact she became labeled as a kleptomaniac because why 107 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 1: else would a woman of her means in standing steal 108 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:58,599 Speaker 1: a spool of lace? And speaking of lace, I mean 109 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 1: that was a hot commodity back in the day. These 110 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 1: middle class women were doing their darndists to get their 111 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 1: hands on uh expensive silks, ribbons, like we said, lace. 112 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 1: They weren't going and stealing like a cantalope. I mean, 113 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 1: they were stealing like things to make themselves look fancy. 114 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 1: And it wasn't too hard to conceal those items because 115 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 1: they were wearing so many clothes that they could literally 116 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 1: just sneak it up into their bustle or something like that. 117 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 1: And trot out of the store. Um and the fact 118 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: that there was new plate glass window technology that facilitated 119 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: these large storefront displays for the very first time, and 120 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 1: you had merchandise out on the floor in a way 121 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 1: that it had never been before. And so all of 122 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 1: a sudden you just have this these smorgas board of 123 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: things that women could take. But the whole shoplifting craze portrayed, 124 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 1: it was portrayed as you know, an affliction of these 125 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 1: mad women, because it was usually wealthier women who probably 126 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 1: could have afforded to buy that spool of lace. Right, 127 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: But this whole, this whole diagnosis itself of kleptomania is 128 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 1: so waited, it's so it has so much baggage and 129 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 1: is so heavily value laden because it says so much 130 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 1: about the views of women themselves. It's not just about 131 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 1: stealing stuff. It's about there is something wrong with women. 132 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 1: Women are inferior. There must be something wrong with them 133 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 1: to make them take the stuff that they don't need. 134 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 1: A poor woman, sure, well, she's poor, she needs to 135 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:37,200 Speaker 1: steal that stuff. What what could possibly explain a wealthier 136 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 1: woman stealing Well, it's simply the ova stimulation of the bazaars, 137 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 1: doctors would say, because again it was very fashionable to 138 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 1: be seen at these places. This was the error when 139 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: you have the rise of conspicuous consumption and you want 140 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: to look good and being seen out shopping was a 141 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: sign of your class. And so doctors are thinking, well, 142 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:00,199 Speaker 1: I mean, these women are are leaving the home and 143 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 1: they're just seeing all these things and they don't know 144 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 1: what to do. And of course in the nineteen tens, 145 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: Freudians would link it to female sexual repression, because why 146 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 1: else would a woman steal but to fill some barren 147 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 1: hole in her womb with lace, with lace, lacey womb. 148 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 1: I love it, but yeah, they did. They linked it 149 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 1: to sexual desire to like, well, they're just acquiring and 150 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 1: acquiring and acquiring, because maybe they're not acquiring at home. 151 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: And it's also interesting to see how our perception of 152 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 1: kleptomania what drives it changes over time. After World War One, 153 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: for instance, it was considered a sign of acting out 154 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 1: to soothe mass trauma, because that's the hallmark of kleptomania, 155 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 1: you don't actually need things. Stealing is different from kleptomaniac 156 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:51,440 Speaker 1: shoplifting because, for instance, with the case of Winona Ryder 157 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 1: in two dozen two and she got caught stealing from 158 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 1: Saxfith Avenue a lot of the garments that she had. 159 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 1: She had carelessly the tag out, so there were holes 160 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:03,599 Speaker 1: in the clothes. She was never going to wear them. 161 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 1: She just got the thrill, apparently out of stealing them. 162 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:10,440 Speaker 1: So a clinician said, yeah, I mean it's interesting. I 163 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 1: this is another topic Kristen where I'm like that, that's 164 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 1: not me. No, none of this has ever applied to me. 165 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 1: It did, and it did once. Yeah, you were you 166 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 1: a little cleptomaniac. I literally a little cleptomaniac. And I 167 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 1: only did it once, and the shame was enough to 168 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 1: make sure that I never did it again. I my 169 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 1: parents would take me to this like neighborhood nanny babysitter 170 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 1: person sometimes. And there was one day where I was leaving. 171 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 1: My parents had come to get me right as another 172 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: family was dropping off their little girl for an overnight stay, 173 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 1: and her overnight bag carelessly just left there in the hallway. 174 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:47,559 Speaker 1: And I walked by and I saw this little stuff bunny, 175 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 1: and I was like, well, that's gonna be mine now, 176 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 1: and so I took it and it was like this 177 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 1: little bunny that I had no need for. It wasn't 178 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 1: even that cute, like it was in a little Ballerina costume. 179 00:10:56,679 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 1: Oh god, if that little girls listening, who's a grown 180 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 1: up woman? Now? I'm really really sorry. But I never 181 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 1: used it. I never played with it. I hated to 182 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: look at it. I just threw it to the bottom 183 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: of my toy chest. And it wasn't until I think 184 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: I was cleaning out the basement and my parents house 185 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:13,119 Speaker 1: like years later that I found and was like, oh god, trash. 186 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 1: I just didn't even want to look at it again. 187 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:18,680 Speaker 1: Oh no, because you were so I was so ashamed. Yeah, 188 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 1: yeah I was. I think I was always too too 189 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 1: terrified to steal anything. Um. But because it was so 190 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 1: initially associated with women, and even still I feel like 191 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: if you if you say the word kleptomania, people say, 192 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:37,559 Speaker 1: oh when own a writer or just something that women 193 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 1: tend to do, because it was so gendered from the 194 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: get go. There was an interesting thing that happened in 195 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies, and this is coming from an article 196 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 1: published in the New Inquiry talking about kleptomania as a 197 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 1: woman's disease. Why we think of it that way, and 198 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 1: Auther talks about how in the seventies it was no 199 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 1: longer treated as a disorder but as an ideology, saying 200 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 1: that the hip, rebellious, typically male shoplifter had been invented, 201 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 1: both in real life and on the page. And the 202 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:09,960 Speaker 1: author goes on to talk about how books like Saul 203 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 1: Bellows Augie Marsh portray these almost romantic shoplifters like Augie 204 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:18,320 Speaker 1: Marsh would always steal books and and what what a 205 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,040 Speaker 1: wonderful thing for a young man to do. You know, 206 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:23,439 Speaker 1: he just steals books because he wants to read, um, 207 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 1: whereas you know, a woman stealing clothes is deranged with 208 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: a wandering womb or something. Um. But she goes on 209 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 1: to talk about how New York there's a New York 210 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 1: Times article that came out a couple of years ago 211 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 1: citing the most commonly stolen authors, and it says, quote, 212 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 1: it's mostly younger men stealing the books. They think it's 213 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:46,200 Speaker 1: an existential rite of passage to steal their homeboy. Um. 214 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 1: So that's just an interesting example of how it's applied 215 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 1: differently to men, because I guess because it's thought of 216 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: as as just something that women do just out of 217 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:04,199 Speaker 1: for quality almost right. And one recent pop culture reference 218 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:07,679 Speaker 1: to kleptomania, especially the term just getting thrown around, was 219 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 1: the Bling Ring, which is has been made into a movie. Um. 220 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:14,559 Speaker 1: There these were five teens who stole more than three 221 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:18,199 Speaker 1: million dollars in jewelry and designer goods from young Hollywood 222 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:22,679 Speaker 1: kids like Paris Hilton, Lindsay Lohan, Megan Fox, et cetera 223 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 1: between October two thousand and eight to August two thousand nine, 224 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 1: and one of the teens, Nick Prugo, claimed that it 225 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 1: was peer pressure that he really just wanted to keep 226 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 1: his friends, one of whom was Rachel Lee, who he 227 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 1: said was the ring leader. So then Rachel was described 228 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: by another one of the teens as a klepto freak. 229 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 1: But as we'll get into when we talk about the definitions, 230 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:45,840 Speaker 1: and as we've talked about a little bit, is Rachel 231 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 1: Lee really a cleptomaniac? Not really if we look at 232 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 1: the definition, because she tended to be doing it out 233 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:55,440 Speaker 1: of just revenge or boredom or an obsession with celebrity fashion. Yeah, 234 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:59,319 Speaker 1: she wanted those the clothes that they had so badly, 235 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 1: at least in the way that uh, Prugo told it 236 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:06,720 Speaker 1: to Vanity Fair writer Nancy Joe Sales, and um it 237 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 1: reminded me though really quickly, when I was reading When 238 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 1: Ladies Go a Thieving My note is ye old bling 239 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:17,559 Speaker 1: ring because talking about in the nineteenth century, it seems 240 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 1: like the exact same thing as was driving Rachel Lee 241 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: and the other members of the Bling Ring UH in 242 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 1: two thousand and eight and two thousand nine when they 243 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: were going on their thieving rampage. UH. In the nineteenth century, 244 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 1: for the female shoplifter, drapery firms remained the favorite haunts, 245 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 1: and women continue to steal items like lace and ribbon, 246 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 1: which were expensive and easily purloined, and the boulder shoplifters 247 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: favored the expensive silks, which could be quickly and profitably liquidated. 248 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 1: And also one of the largest categories for theft at 249 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 1: the time for which women were actually sent out to 250 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 1: Australian penal colonies was the theft of wearing apparel, just 251 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 1: the same kind of thing we were stealing other people's clothes, 252 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 1: being obsessed with a look or an image. But again, 253 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 1: though that question, it would Rachel Lee and similar Bling 254 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: ringers actually be kleptomaniacs because there is that irresistible urge 255 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 1: to steal items that they don't generally need. All of 256 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 1: the kids came from well off families, well off enough 257 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 1: that they certainly could buy their own clothes, right Yeah. 258 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 1: And I mean, the definition of kleptomania, like we said, 259 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 1: is that irresistible urge to steal items that you generally 260 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 1: don't need. But they weren't doing the other hallmark, which 261 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 1: is stealing items of little value. These items literally were 262 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 1: very valuable, including just wads of cash that they would 263 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 1: find laying around sometimes. Um. The Mayo Clinic describes it 264 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 1: as an impulse controlled disorder, usually under the umbrella of 265 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 1: things like pyromania, trick tillamnia, which is when you compulsively 266 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 1: eat your own hair, compulsive gambling. It's something where you 267 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 1: cannot resist the temptation to perform an act even though 268 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 1: you know that it's harmful to yourself or somebody else. 269 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 1: And it's usually spontaneous and also in public places. And 270 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 1: that spontaneity makes me think that a clinician would not 271 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 1: diagnose the blingering with kleptomania because they planned it out 272 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 1: pretty carefully. I mean, they might be kind of like celebrity, obsessive, 273 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 1: um or envious of a certain lifestyle. But I don't 274 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: know that they would be quite the same as a 275 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: true cleptomaniac. And let's not forget that again, this is 276 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 1: not the same thing as shoplifting. Fewer than five percent 277 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 1: of shoplifters are actual compulsive cleptomaniacs. Yeah. And even though 278 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 1: there has been no epidemiological study on kleptomania, which is 279 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 1: kind of surprising considering how casually we tend to throw 280 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 1: out the term um, some clinicians suggests that at least 281 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: point six percent of the general population would fall under 282 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 1: the kleptomaniac category. Um. But that shame and embarrassment that's 283 00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 1: often associated with the kleptomania cycle of stealing and then 284 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: like you did, Caroline, you felt terrible about it and 285 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 1: you were embarrassed, UM something that maybe because of that, 286 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 1: it's underestimated because no one wants to report it. No 287 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 1: one wants to fuss up unless they actually got caught 288 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 1: in the act and had to write. Well, it's interesting though, 289 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 1: I mean, there is that cycle of symptoms, but it's 290 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 1: cleptomania is actually linked to a lot of things. Like 291 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 1: we said, it's an impulse control disorder that does also 292 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:26,400 Speaker 1: have links to eating disorders, but it also has linked 293 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:29,679 Speaker 1: to depression, and researchers have found that a lot of 294 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 1: times this the theft itself is used to alleviate depression symptoms, 295 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: and patients with cleptomania that they've studied do report high 296 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 1: lifetime rates of depression that usually ends up proceeding that behavior. Well, 297 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 1: it makes sense because it's usually a three part process 298 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 1: where a cleptomania will feel this increased tension where they 299 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:55,199 Speaker 1: have to steal something, and so then they do it, 300 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 1: and they initially feel gratification pleasure like oh, they got 301 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 1: away with it, okay, But then the game, the guilt 302 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 1: and shame set in and it starts back all over again, 303 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:12,199 Speaker 1: which certainly would play into depressive symptoms and probably feed depression. 304 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:16,439 Speaker 1: And considering that pattern of the tension leading up to it, 305 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 1: in the initial gratification, even though you know you're doing 306 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:23,440 Speaker 1: something that's probably not good for you. Clutomania is often 307 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 1: related to addictive behaviors, and some people think that stealing 308 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:31,720 Speaker 1: triggers a dopamine release, which is why you feel so good. 309 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:34,640 Speaker 1: It's the same way where if you are an alcoholic, 310 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 1: for instance, there's that tension leading up to you getting 311 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 1: that first drink and then you feel that release once 312 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:45,200 Speaker 1: you finally become intoxicated. Then afterwards the guilt and shame. Right, 313 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: And there is also an overarching theory which I had 314 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,440 Speaker 1: never heard of before during this research. There's a theory 315 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: that it could have something to do with problematic connections 316 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 1: between different parts of the brain talking to each other, 317 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 1: and that possibly people with head injuries could damage circuits 318 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 1: between the orbital and frontal lobes of the brain, causing 319 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 1: low blood flow and like we said, bad connections, So 320 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 1: there could be like an actual physical reason too that 321 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 1: this is happening. Yeah, because the parts of the brain 322 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:17,159 Speaker 1: that they think might be affected or dysfunctional in a 323 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 1: way are the parts involving information exchange. And then the 324 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 1: part of the brain the limbic system that controls our 325 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:28,119 Speaker 1: moods and desires. So it's like something is breaking down 326 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 1: between um, what we're being compelled to do and what 327 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: we know we should not do, and then how we 328 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 1: are deriving uh, senses of satisfaction and things like that. Right, 329 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:44,119 Speaker 1: And if you look at the comorbid condition rates, other 330 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 1: impulse control disorders make up twenty of co occurring conditions 331 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 1: substance use mood disorders to a hundred percent of people 332 00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:59,159 Speaker 1: presenting with cleptomania, and a lot of times too. This 333 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 1: is something that star it's at a very young age. 334 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:04,439 Speaker 1: Even though it might take a while for someone to 335 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:09,439 Speaker 1: get caught, it's not uncommon for the compulsive thieving to 336 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:14,200 Speaker 1: begin at an age as young as five. And Terence Shulman, 337 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:16,159 Speaker 1: who's the founder and director of the Shulman Center for 338 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 1: Compulsive Theft, Spending and Hoarding, says that most people start 339 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:23,199 Speaker 1: out stealing just a little bit, usually in reaction to 340 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 1: some sort of emotional distress or as an act of rebellion, right, 341 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 1: something like being overdisciplined, abused, or even shamed. And psychologist 342 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: Jeff Guardair said that, yeah, it could be a sign 343 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 1: of emotional disturbance, lack of permanence in their lives, taking 344 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:42,159 Speaker 1: back power from a strictly disciplined childhood. So maybe this 345 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:44,480 Speaker 1: is just children. I mean, I have no idea why 346 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 1: I did it. I had a perfectly normal childhood, I 347 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:49,879 Speaker 1: mean relatively well, you still once, I don't think that 348 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:52,639 Speaker 1: would be Like, I don't know what compelled me to 349 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:55,120 Speaker 1: do it then, because I absolutely did not need it. 350 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 1: It's not something I particularly wanted. It had no value 351 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:00,119 Speaker 1: to me. It was just like it's there, an I'm 352 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:01,680 Speaker 1: gonna take it, and it's gonna be mine. But it 353 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:05,440 Speaker 1: sounds like that classic thing of testing boundaries, just saying 354 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 1: I probably shouldn't do this, but I'm gonna do it anyway. 355 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 1: I know. I was like, it's like a total cartoon 356 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:14,160 Speaker 1: moment of like shifty eyes looking around grabbing it. Don't 357 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 1: even know if my parents noticed, but yeah, I mean, 358 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 1: it could just be that these children, maybe for whatever reason, 359 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 1: feel a little out of control and are seeking to 360 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:25,160 Speaker 1: do something to sort of bring a sense of control back. 361 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:30,199 Speaker 1: But obviously, if the behavior continues and UM becomes a 362 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 1: cycle in someone's life, there are treatments out there for it. UM. 363 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:37,160 Speaker 1: It's not uncommon for cleptomania to be treated with antidepressants, 364 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 1: mood stabilizers, anti seizure medications, or addiction medications, depending on 365 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:47,479 Speaker 1: what the comorbidity is because usually you cleptomania isn't just 366 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 1: existing in a silo. There are other things that are 367 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 1: going on as well, which is also why, in addition 368 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:58,200 Speaker 1: to medication, psychotherapy is also used pretty often, right, But so, 369 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:00,919 Speaker 1: you know, we've talked about the symptoms then and what 370 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 1: kleptomania kind of almost forces you to do, and how 371 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:08,359 Speaker 1: that diagnosis came about, and how it was used to 372 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 1: defend people. But nowadays it's really not that great of 373 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 1: a legal defense because it's kind of just not taken 374 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:20,120 Speaker 1: that seriously. Yeah, I mean, we should note that cleptomania 375 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 1: has only been intermittently recognized by the American Psychiatric Association 376 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,960 Speaker 1: that publishes the d s M, which is the you know, 377 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 1: the Bible as it's often called, of mental illness. It's 378 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:35,399 Speaker 1: only been recognized off and on since the nineteen fifties, 379 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 1: and in nineteen sixty two it was listed in the 380 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 1: d s M as a supplementary term, not a primary diagnosis. 381 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 1: Then in sixty eight it was admitted altogether, and then 382 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:50,200 Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty it was reintroduced as an impulse controlled disorder. So, yeah, 383 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 1: in light of all that, there is a question of 384 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: whether kleptomania is a unique mental disorder that people suffer from, 385 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 1: since it often does co occur with other psycholo logical 386 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 1: disorders like addiction, eating disorder, and depression, And it seems 387 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:10,159 Speaker 1: like what kleptomania experts are trying to figure out at 388 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:14,399 Speaker 1: this point is kind of what goes along with it, 389 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,159 Speaker 1: because Terence Shulman, who I referenced earlier, talks about how, 390 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: you know, stealing can become addictive for many people as 391 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:26,640 Speaker 1: it mimics addiction to other negative behaviors like gambling. But 392 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 1: the cleptomania by itself shouldn't be seen as an addiction. 393 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 1: It's more, he says, the feelings that cause people to 394 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 1: act out and do it, that's what should be diagnosed, 395 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:43,119 Speaker 1: such as underlying anxiety, depression, compulsion, and o c D. Right, so, 396 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 1: as far as legal defenses go, I mean, cleptomania just 397 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 1: doesn't seem like it would get you very far well, 398 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: And I wonder once you start looking back at the 399 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 1: roots of the term and how it came about as 400 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 1: really a safety net for middle class women to keep 401 00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:01,439 Speaker 1: them out of prisons, and also tying in with that 402 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:07,119 Speaker 1: these antiquated Victorian notions that women were simply inferior, and 403 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 1: a lot of female affliction in quotes was often just 404 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 1: linked back to some form of hysteria dealing with either 405 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 1: sexual repression or us not being able to have a baby. 406 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 1: In our arms so that we wouldn't be able to 407 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 1: steal lace or something like that. I wonder too, though, 408 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 1: and this is a question for any experts out there 409 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,959 Speaker 1: whether it's even a term that should exist at all. 410 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 1: I mean, it's obviously an impulse control problem. It's a 411 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 1: it's a disorder, but I feel like the term has 412 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:42,359 Speaker 1: become it's so has such a loaded and incorrect history, right, Like, 413 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 1: I mean, like it obviously seems more like a sub 414 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:47,920 Speaker 1: type of impulse Well, it is, it's a subtype of 415 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:50,640 Speaker 1: impulse control disorder, but maybe you should just say that 416 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 1: person has an impulse controlled disorder that causes them to steal, 417 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:56,439 Speaker 1: or to gamble, or to pull their hair out. And 418 00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 1: kind of on the reverse of this, um, I think 419 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 1: it's seems like a lot more attention needs to be 420 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:06,399 Speaker 1: paid to that potential gender bias that if a woman 421 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 1: is caught stealing, she's a lot more likely to be 422 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 1: psychiatrically evaluated. So why why don't we offer the same 423 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:17,119 Speaker 1: thing to men, because obviously it's it's probably happening for 424 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 1: them as well. It could just be like that division 425 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: between middle class women and poor women in nineteenth century England, 426 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: well and that's I mean, that gets into a whole 427 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:29,720 Speaker 1: conversation about how we view who a criminal is. Right, 428 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,480 Speaker 1: we just assume men are doing things maliciously, that they're 429 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 1: committing crimes, whereas, oh, well that woman must be mentally ill, yeah, 430 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 1: or she you know it can't be helped in some 431 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 1: way because she must be driven because of destitution, or 432 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 1: she has mouths defeed or something like that. So it's 433 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:48,680 Speaker 1: funny like as I was reading these these historical perspectives 434 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:53,200 Speaker 1: on kleptomania, my overarching thought was, oh, good, so women 435 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,879 Speaker 1: couldn't even have agency in their own crimes. That's good. 436 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 1: So basically we're arguing for the at the hammer of 437 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 1: the law to come down harder on women. No, no, Well, 438 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:09,920 Speaker 1: it's always uh interested to hear from listeners. UM, if 439 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:13,880 Speaker 1: you have experienced kleptomania, if it's something that you deal with, 440 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: definitely let us know. Well, we will protect your anonymity. UM. 441 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: But I would be curious to know if any of 442 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 1: the jibs with UM someone's experience with it. UM. And 443 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:29,119 Speaker 1: also I hope that those historical tidbits about clepto mania 444 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 1: and Jane Austen's and I hope that that was as 445 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:34,720 Speaker 1: fun for you to learn as it was for me 446 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 1: and Caroline to learn. So send us your thoughts about 447 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 1: clepto mania, shoplifting, thievery, the blingering. Has anybody seen it? 448 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:45,879 Speaker 1: I want to see it. Uh. You can send your 449 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 1: emails to mom Stuff at Discovery dot com, or you 450 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,400 Speaker 1: can tweet us at mom Stuff Podcast, or of course 451 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 1: you can send us a message on Facebook as well. 452 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 1: And we've got a couple of messages to read when 453 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 1: we get back from a quick break. And now that 454 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 1: to some letters, Kristen, here is one from Amanda. She says, 455 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:09,480 Speaker 1: I loved your podcast on seeing through glasses stereotypes because 456 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:15,000 Speaker 1: I am the poster child for dateless nearsightedness. My sister, however, 457 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:16,920 Speaker 1: who needs no such help with her vision, has had 458 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,360 Speaker 1: no such trouble. No complaints here, though, true to your findings, 459 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 1: I am more often stereotyped as intelligent looking and more 460 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 1: capable than my glasses less friends. Next time a guy 461 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,919 Speaker 1: catches my eye, I suppose I'll ditch my frames for contacts, 462 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,160 Speaker 1: though I'm still holding out for a saintly male who 463 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:38,160 Speaker 1: can see worth even in those cursed with horrible vision. Amanda, 464 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:43,240 Speaker 1: don't ditch your glasses for boys. You do what makes 465 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 1: you happy, slash able to see men will make passes 466 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 1: at girls who wear glasses. Well, I've got one here 467 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:56,399 Speaker 1: from Michelle and the subject line is douching can be 468 00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:01,919 Speaker 1: fun not she right? And and just just the warning 469 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,919 Speaker 1: out there she's about to talk about the giants, So 470 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 1: here we go. Michelle says, hello there, Oh, how I 471 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 1: wish I had found your podcast a month ago. I 472 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,879 Speaker 1: could have saved myself a lot of uncomfortable times. I 473 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:15,679 Speaker 1: just found you guys this past week and have been 474 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 1: listening to some podcasts from way back when, including one 475 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:22,399 Speaker 1: on douching. My mom was supremely uncomfortable taking me just 476 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:24,359 Speaker 1: to buy bras, so of course asked me her about 477 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 1: douching was a way out of the question. So I 478 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 1: found out about it through my husband. I had a discharged. 479 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 1: It smelled a little iffy for a couple of days, 480 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:32,919 Speaker 1: and we couldn't afford a trip at the doctor's office. 481 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 1: Asking my mom for advice was not going to happen. 482 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 1: But thankfully his family dynamics are very different than money, 483 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 1: he had no problem asking his mom. She recommended douching. 484 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 1: She's been doing it all of her life to counter 485 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 1: her frequent urinary tract infections. So, having no idea whatsoever 486 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 1: what I was getting into, I decided to douche hello 487 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 1: and behold, two days later, I was blessed with my 488 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:58,240 Speaker 1: very first yearinary tract infection. While chugging cranberry juice, I 489 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 1: decided to finally research douching and found the same results 490 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 1: that you guys reported. Never again will I try anything 491 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 1: involving my body without some extra research. Michelle, I'm so 492 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 1: sorry to hear that you had to go through with that. 493 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 1: And as I was reading the email in the note 494 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 1: about how your mother in law has douche all of 495 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 1: her life to counter her frequent urinary tract infections, I 496 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,960 Speaker 1: think I know why she gets frequent urinary tract infections. Yeah, 497 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,600 Speaker 1: I think a single trip to the doctor for a diagnosis, 498 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,720 Speaker 1: maybe some antibiotics, get get a nice check up in 499 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 1: a pats near like let's not well, as she notes, though, 500 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:36,800 Speaker 1: you know, she couldn't afford a trip to a Dartnell. 501 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 1: I'm talking about her mother in law. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, 502 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 1: I'm I'm saying that that that years long cycle of 503 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,960 Speaker 1: her mother in law has been experiencing, Like why would 504 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 1: you want to continue experiencing that well, because a lot 505 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 1: as we talked about in the podcast, a lot of 506 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 1: a lot of women don't know because their mother handed 507 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 1: it down to them as the way to keep their 508 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 1: vagina's clean. But as we have set up in on 509 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 1: this podcast, done with a douche, just say no the 510 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 1: douche ladies, why it still exists? I it bobbles my mind? Yeah, um, 511 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 1: but you're not alone though, according to the US Health 512 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 1: and Human Services of Women Ages, I believe still douche. 513 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 1: So break the cycle. Break the cycle, ladies. And Jen's 514 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 1: just just saying them all right. So that's it. If 515 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 1: you have any comments about douching, gold, the mania, or 516 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 1: anything else, uh, send us an email. Mom Stuff Discovery 517 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 1: dot com is our email address. You can also tweet 518 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 1: us at mom Stuff Podcast. You can like us on 519 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 1: Facebook send us a message there. You can follow us 520 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 1: on Tumbler as well. 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