WEBVTT - Systems Holding, Systems Folding 0:00:11.720 --> 0:00:14.520 Good morning, peeps, and welcome to WOKP Daily with me 0:00:14.680 --> 0:00:18.680 your girl Daniel Moody from the Home Bunker. Folks, I 0:00:18.720 --> 0:00:21.920 am very excited to bring you a conversation with one 0:00:21.960 --> 0:00:24.120 of our friends of the show and friends of mine, 0:00:24.440 --> 0:00:28.280 Jentaub now Jen, as you know when we brought her 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:30.240 on the show in the past. We get into the 0:00:30.320 --> 0:00:33.919 legal weeds. We talk about white collar crime, we talk 0:00:33.920 --> 0:00:36.479 about Donald Trump, we talk about the Supreme Court, we 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:41.520 talk about grifting. But on this episode, I actually wanted 0:00:41.520 --> 0:00:46.839 to talk about the humanity in the law and not 0:00:47.080 --> 0:00:51.839 being able, or I should say this, being able to 0:00:53.120 --> 0:00:59.080 view the law not as this neutral power structure, because 0:00:59.120 --> 0:01:02.600 we know that people are not neutral. We know that 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:06.160 the judges and the lawyers that preside over our legal 0:01:06.200 --> 0:01:12.360 system are coming from a varied perspectives, upbringings, understanding and 0:01:12.560 --> 0:01:16.000 reasons why they are there in the first place. So 0:01:16.040 --> 0:01:20.319 in this conversation with Jen today, we talk about her 0:01:20.440 --> 0:01:24.200 law students. We talk about the things that are providing 0:01:24.280 --> 0:01:28.000 us hope in these really dark times. We talk about 0:01:28.240 --> 0:01:32.479 systems holding and systems folding, and what the future looks 0:01:32.520 --> 0:01:35.800 like for us as we move into the twenty twenty 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:41.520 four election cycle year. Given all that has transpired and 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:45.920 continues to transpire while I'm doing this recording, there is 0:01:46.040 --> 0:01:53.080 so much happening everywhere, and everywhere looks bad. But if 0:01:53.120 --> 0:02:00.320 you are not actively intentionally looking for the light, you 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:04.040 will find yourself consumed in darkness. And so I hope 0:02:04.080 --> 0:02:08.239 that this episode with our friend Gentaalb provides a little 0:02:08.240 --> 0:02:15.520 bit of a spark. Folks. I am always grateful whenever 0:02:15.560 --> 0:02:19.960 I get to bring on friends, people who I genuinely 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:23.840 care about to this show, to ook at daily, and 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:27.240 I'm always happy to welcome back gent Tobb, our friend, 0:02:27.320 --> 0:02:31.120 law professor and author of Big Dirty Money and Other 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:34.520 People's Houses and host of the podcast Booked Up with 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:40.680 gen Tobb. Jen there is I mean, it isn't even 0:02:40.720 --> 0:02:44.720 an elephant in the room. It's like we're just inside 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:49.359 of the elephant at this point. And you know, before 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:52.799 we even started recording, it was what should we talk about? 0:02:52.960 --> 0:02:57.320 Because it is like we're just in a place of 0:02:57.440 --> 0:03:04.520 overwhelm where everything everywhere that you look is devastating. It 0:03:04.600 --> 0:03:10.280 is invoking grief, It is invoking despair, hopelessness, all of 0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:15.120 these things that I know that my listeners are feeling 0:03:15.160 --> 0:03:18.720 because they are sharing, and what I've been trying to 0:03:18.800 --> 0:03:22.080 do over the past week on this show, Jen, is 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:25.200 to really talk about how we take care of each other, 0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:28.000 how we take care of ourselves and each other during 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:33.120 this time, how we collectively stand up for and discuss humanity, 0:03:33.320 --> 0:03:38.040 something that is just you know, as old as you know, 0:03:38.400 --> 0:03:42.000 as all as time, but that we seem to have 0:03:42.160 --> 0:03:45.480 lost sight of. And so I just want to start 0:03:45.520 --> 0:03:50.440 off with, you know, for you who teaches, you know, 0:03:50.560 --> 0:03:53.640 stands up in front of young people who are aspiring 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:57.960 right to do something good to you know, to be 0:03:58.120 --> 0:04:02.480 of service. How are you finding this moment and how 0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:06.880 are you taking care of yourself as you you know, 0:04:06.960 --> 0:04:09.040 I think that part of being a professor in a 0:04:09.080 --> 0:04:12.320 lot of ways is performing. It's what teachers have to do, 0:04:12.560 --> 0:04:15.200 you know, to to bring people in. How are you 0:04:15.280 --> 0:04:18.279 able to manage at this time? 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:22.760 Well, thank you so much for asking. I've been able 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:26.800 to fortunately this week because this is when you and 0:04:26.880 --> 0:04:30.719 I are talking. My schedule is like a Monday, Wednesday, 0:04:30.760 --> 0:04:33.440 Thursday this fall, and Monday was Indigenous People's Day so 0:04:33.480 --> 0:04:36.880 I didn't have to go in, and then on Wednesday 0:04:37.080 --> 0:04:40.120 we had a appellate court visit, so one of my 0:04:40.200 --> 0:04:45.000 classes got to watch lawyers make arguments right in that class. 0:04:45.120 --> 0:04:46.800 Then we had the follow up on Thursday, and and 0:04:46.880 --> 0:04:49.400 I sort of set aside the regular lesson, which was 0:04:49.400 --> 0:04:53.360 some sort of technical lesson on federal court procedure, to 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:56.680 hear what they thought of the oral argument. And that 0:04:56.800 --> 0:04:59.359 was a way and they were so talkative, and I 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:03.520 think it was a sideways into talking about feelings and 0:05:03.600 --> 0:05:08.080 talking about fears and talking about humanity and I'll explain 0:05:08.120 --> 0:05:10.719 in a second why, and talking about imposture syndrome. Because 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:15.240 there were several people arguing before these judges these appeals, 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:17.359 and I only was there for half of it, for 0:05:17.400 --> 0:05:19.840 the civil cases. In the morning, there were some criminal cases, 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:22.159 and so I wanted this to get We were talking 0:05:22.160 --> 0:05:24.200 about one case in particular, what did I think the 0:05:24.240 --> 0:05:26.240 outcome would be? And that was kind of technical, right, 0:05:26.680 --> 0:05:28.440 But then I want to know what they thought about 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:32.320 the lawyer's performances. And they all these hands shop shot off. 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:34.279 People were popping out of their seats to talk, and 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:36.760 I'm like, okay, let this go. And so it was 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:39.400 really interesting because first they were like, that was so 0:05:39.480 --> 0:05:43.040 embarrassing that one lawyer representing a criminal defendant. This person 0:05:43.240 --> 0:05:46.719 is charged with these heinous crimes and might be deported, 0:05:47.360 --> 0:05:49.440 and this lawyer did a terrible job, right, and so 0:05:49.480 --> 0:05:51.839 that's like that our system shouldn't work that way. And 0:05:51.880 --> 0:05:54.080 then there was some people who said, yeah, but the 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:56.480 judges were laughing at that lawyer because they were doing 0:05:56.520 --> 0:05:58.120 such a bad job, and that made us laugh and 0:05:58.160 --> 0:06:01.360 we feel bad about that the judges. So there was 0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:03.880 all this stuff that happened, and I realized it wasn't 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:06.720 just I know that maybe this seems an odd thing 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:09.480 for me to say, but I think allowing for those 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:12.599 kinds of impressions, and not just the analytical side of 0:06:12.640 --> 0:06:17.240 an argument, but letting students share their feelings about something 0:06:17.320 --> 0:06:20.120 that wasn't one of these painful current events, that they 0:06:20.160 --> 0:06:22.640 could all they could debate over what they thought about 0:06:22.680 --> 0:06:25.960 the behavior. And you know, that was the moment where 0:06:26.000 --> 0:06:28.200 I was able to do my thing that I often say, 0:06:28.200 --> 0:06:31.040 which is, you know, law is the language of power. 0:06:31.240 --> 0:06:32.920 And by the way, most of my students are first 0:06:32.960 --> 0:06:36.400 gen students. I am at a sort of regional law school. 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:41.120 Amazing students who are trying to do all kinds of 0:06:41.120 --> 0:06:45.279 different things with their degrees, lift themselves up economically, someone 0:06:45.400 --> 0:06:47.599 to help the community. People have all kinds of different 0:06:47.640 --> 0:06:51.320 ideas with what they'll do with the degree. And you know, 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:53.960 they watch role models. They saw lawyers they wanted to 0:06:53.960 --> 0:06:56.760 emulate and ones they didn't. They saw judges they liked 0:06:56.800 --> 0:07:00.320 and ones that they didn't. And I think this speech 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:02.960 that I was able to talk about about law being 0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:05.240 the language of power and how you know, I always say, 0:07:05.240 --> 0:07:08.240 you know, generations ago, during feudalism, you know, you had 0:07:09.120 --> 0:07:11.480 a big mode and you had an army, and now 0:07:12.080 --> 0:07:14.640 law and law can be boring and challenging, and you 0:07:14.720 --> 0:07:16.800 need to have access in many to go to law school. 0:07:17.000 --> 0:07:18.720 And I said, on top of that, even when you're 0:07:18.720 --> 0:07:21.840 a lawyer, then you're up against judges who've been raised 0:07:21.840 --> 0:07:24.560 in this system, even if they think they're doing the 0:07:24.640 --> 0:07:27.120 right thing, to have a kind of imperious attitude. And 0:07:27.200 --> 0:07:29.120 I said, you know, you don't have to do that 0:07:29.200 --> 0:07:30.760 as a judge. I said, if you're a judge and 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:33.560 you see someone struggling, if you let them know they're 0:07:33.600 --> 0:07:35.680 fucking up, like it's not going to make them do 0:07:35.760 --> 0:07:38.800 a better job for their client, how do you show 0:07:38.840 --> 0:07:40.880 your humanity? And then another student said, yeah, but that 0:07:40.920 --> 0:07:43.440 person it's you know, I don't have a problem with 0:07:43.480 --> 0:07:45.640 the judge behaving that way because that lawyer shouldn't have 0:07:45.680 --> 0:07:47.600 been there. And I'm thinking, okay, like I just let 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:50.840 them all express what they wanted to express, and I 0:07:50.920 --> 0:07:53.760 think it was a really cool class. Now I'm a 0:07:53.880 --> 0:07:57.160 day behind and my lesson, but it was I think 0:07:57.320 --> 0:07:59.760 a gift to me to be able to hear them 0:08:00.160 --> 0:08:02.640 talk in that way about how to be a person 0:08:02.640 --> 0:08:05.600 in the world and these challenging circumstances as a lawyer. 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:08.320 But it has also allowed me not to have to 0:08:08.360 --> 0:08:11.200 perform and act like everything was normal. So that's the 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:13.080 ant long winded answer to your question. 0:08:13.600 --> 0:08:15.680 No, but I think but I think that that's right, 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:18.520 even though you just said that you're a day behind 0:08:18.560 --> 0:08:20.760 in lessons, because I think that that was a lesson. 0:08:21.240 --> 0:08:23.800 I think that oftentimes, and a lot of these you 0:08:23.840 --> 0:08:28.160 know what your books and your writing and your work 0:08:28.240 --> 0:08:32.960 is about, these white collar professions have people assume a 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:36.599 different costume and identity in order to fit in to 0:08:37.240 --> 0:08:42.560 the status quo of what is supposedly acceptable behavior and 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:46.920 action and dress and talk and tone in these different spaces. 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:50.200 And so when you are saying that your students are 0:08:50.240 --> 0:08:54.800 first generation, largely first generation. They're entering into the law 0:08:55.480 --> 0:08:58.040 right for a different reason. And so I just want 0:08:58.040 --> 0:09:00.880 to give you the space to talk about, you know, 0:09:01.160 --> 0:09:03.520 what have you heard from some of your students as 0:09:03.600 --> 0:09:07.240 to why they enter into a profession that largely at times, 0:09:07.480 --> 0:09:11.120 you know, is a punch is a punchline, right for comedians, 0:09:11.200 --> 0:09:14.840 is a is a battering ram for for other places, 0:09:14.840 --> 0:09:21.240 that a first generation individual entering into a law school 0:09:21.679 --> 0:09:24.880 has a different perspective and mindset than than what we 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:29.000 believe to be the traditional quote unquote law student. 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:31.520 So I'm glad you asked that. I always asked my 0:09:31.559 --> 0:09:34.840 first year students to send me a photo and sort 0:09:34.840 --> 0:09:36.720 of either why they wanted to go to law school 0:09:36.800 --> 0:09:40.120 or what their what their super secret superpower is or 0:09:40.200 --> 0:09:42.360 could be. You know, so I get these interesting things, 0:09:42.360 --> 0:09:44.440 and so I learned about a lot of them. You know, 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:47.720 I can give you a handful of examples. I have 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:51.160 a student who spent some time in prison, and that's 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:55.880 experience of the criminal justice system wasn't great. And I 0:09:55.960 --> 0:09:59.720 think you know he but he also sees lawyers as 0:10:00.720 --> 0:10:03.360 being really interesting people who work within the law, and 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:05.360 when he watched it was interesting I asked the students, 0:10:05.360 --> 0:10:07.080 because I didn't get to see all the lawyers arguing. 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:09.520 I said, you know, I could see the race and 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:11.560 gender composition of the ones I saw, but what was 0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:14.439 the rest of the day. And except for one person, 0:10:14.520 --> 0:10:17.560 everybody was white? And this student said to me, you know, 0:10:17.600 --> 0:10:19.520 one of them, the student I'm thinking of, you know, 0:10:19.559 --> 0:10:21.240 he raises his hand, he said, well, one person looked 0:10:21.280 --> 0:10:23.240 like he was brown, and that was the guy arguing 0:10:23.280 --> 0:10:25.160 for the Commonwealth, and one of the you know, for 0:10:25.200 --> 0:10:28.719 the government, and one of the Krim and one of 0:10:28.720 --> 0:10:31.959 the Krim arguments or the appeals. I guess that was 0:10:32.000 --> 0:10:33.280 a case, or maybe it was I think that might 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:36.800 have been a suppression of due to an unlawful search. 0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:39.560 I can't remember what it was. Whatever the situation was, 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:42.240 he really liked that person, and so it's interesting. This 0:10:42.280 --> 0:10:44.320 is some one one example of someone who was a 0:10:44.320 --> 0:10:47.040 defendant in the criminalistic system but also wants to be 0:10:47.280 --> 0:10:49.880 a prosecutor. And I think that could be a good thing. 0:10:50.000 --> 0:10:51.719 You know, this is a compassionate person. And when I 0:10:51.800 --> 0:10:54.080 heard about the students said that one of the prosecutors 0:10:55.120 --> 0:10:57.720 something had been misstated on the record and he wanted 0:10:57.760 --> 0:11:01.160 to make sure the judges knew the right information, it 0:11:01.160 --> 0:11:04.559 didn't actually hurt help his case. He clarified something that 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:06.679 would have helped the defendant and they all respected that. 0:11:06.720 --> 0:11:10.199 So like this is something other students, you know, they 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:12.520 want to go into family law, maybe because of their 0:11:12.679 --> 0:11:16.840 own background. Others, you know, they need some A lot 0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:19.920 of the ones who end up around me want to 0:11:19.920 --> 0:11:24.200 go into business law because they've really been interested in 0:11:24.280 --> 0:11:30.000 numbers or they you know, they had a family that 0:11:30.040 --> 0:11:32.640 had maybe a business and they want to try to 0:11:32.640 --> 0:11:37.360 be independent in that way. But it's interesting, there's often 0:11:37.840 --> 0:11:42.040 my students often you know, that imposter complex can be 0:11:42.080 --> 0:11:43.719 a thing. And so in addition to what I was 0:11:43.760 --> 0:11:45.160 saying to them, I said, you know, now you know, 0:11:45.240 --> 0:11:48.400 I said, these judges were actually pretty nice. I said, wait, 0:11:48.440 --> 0:11:50.840 do you see a Supreme Court argument? And I said 0:11:50.880 --> 0:11:52.520 one thing you can do if you're feeling, you know, 0:11:52.559 --> 0:11:54.320 what lawyers do, the ones that you saw up there, 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:56.760 I said that we're doing a great job. They've practiced 0:11:56.760 --> 0:11:58.600 a lot. And I said, there are these things that 0:11:58.600 --> 0:12:01.040 people say. It's called like murder board is the expression 0:12:01.320 --> 0:12:03.680 where before you're going to go in to an argument 0:12:03.760 --> 0:12:06.120 in a pellet argument, before judges as opposed to dealing 0:12:06.160 --> 0:12:07.439 with a jury. When you're going to do one of 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:09.719 these tough arguments with the judges are going to cut 0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:12.400 you off and zero you in and ask all kinds 0:12:12.440 --> 0:12:15.199 of questions you may not know the answer to. People 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:18.240 prepare in advance and they have their friends act like 0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:21.160 mean people, and then you can build up your confidence. 0:12:21.480 --> 0:12:24.240 But you know, it was it's but yeah, they go 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:28.000 into law for all kinds of reasons, and a lot 0:12:28.040 --> 0:12:31.559 of them, a lot of them, don't. You know. A 0:12:31.559 --> 0:12:35.200 lot of people can pass as somebody who had a 0:12:35.240 --> 0:12:40.400 normal childhood or had a middle class upbringing, and and 0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:42.520 I say pass you know, I think you know, in 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:44.800 particular the complexity of a lot of my first gen 0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:49.280 white students who didn't. And they're trying to act they 0:12:49.280 --> 0:12:53.240 don't necessarily have a community around feeling like it was 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:56.800 okay to have come from, you know, a poor white family. Right, 0:12:56.840 --> 0:12:59.520 So they're trying to dress in a certain way or 0:12:59.600 --> 0:13:01.640 look of certain way and look like the profession, all 0:13:01.679 --> 0:13:04.720 the while knowing, you know, what their family life was like, 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:07.120 maybe a family member also in prison, right, And so 0:13:07.120 --> 0:13:09.720 it's it's you know, people don't always share that. But 0:13:09.760 --> 0:13:12.280 if you get to know the students, you understand what 0:13:12.320 --> 0:13:15.200 that background is, and then others are just ordinary middle 0:13:15.240 --> 0:13:16.600 class kids, you know, just a mix. 0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:24.720 It's really interesting when you know, we're watching so many 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:28.600 different cases and so many different judges right these days 0:13:28.640 --> 0:13:33.480 that are becoming spotlighted figures because of the cases that 0:13:33.520 --> 0:13:37.079 they're covering. Right, whether we're looking at Aileen Cannon down 0:13:37.240 --> 0:13:42.240 in Florida, whether we're looking at h you know, tany 0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:46.520 chunkin in New York, if you're looking at you know, 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:49.560 the DA's right, whose names we can you know, kind 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:55.080 of rattle off. These are attorneys, right, These are people people, right, 0:13:55.040 --> 0:14:01.440 and went into this profession for varied reasons and their backgrounds. 0:14:01.480 --> 0:14:06.960 While we love to use the concept of the law 0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:10.520 being quote unquote blind, which is a totally also ablest 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:15.840 thing to say, it probably needs to be changed. But 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:19.720 when we use those kind of refrains, it's like this 0:14:19.960 --> 0:14:24.720 false idea that we can be neutral. And I want 0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:26.720 to be able to dig into that with you, because 0:14:27.640 --> 0:14:32.080 the law as it has been set up has never 0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:36.840 been neutral. Right. The law, whether you're looking at family law, 0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:40.240 if you're looking at employment law, you're looking at you know, 0:14:40.840 --> 0:14:46.640 has always had the traditional quote unquote norm which falls 0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:53.320 on white, middle class male, you know, dominant perspective, and 0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:56.200 it's just like who were I feel like, more so 0:14:56.480 --> 0:15:01.560 now than ever, I feel like folks are asking themselves 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:05.720 and also outwardly, who was this created for? And So 0:15:05.800 --> 0:15:08.560 when you think about the law in terms of how 0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:11.440 you even knew it when you entered into law school 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:16.720 till now as a professor, how has your understanding of 0:15:17.560 --> 0:15:21.600 the law and its power right and the power dynamics 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:23.920 that plane play shifted. 0:15:26.240 --> 0:15:31.480 I think that I always looked, you know, I always 0:15:31.520 --> 0:15:35.240 sort of try to see things as they are, and 0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:40.200 so I was not I wasn't delusional when I went 0:15:40.240 --> 0:15:46.360 to law school, like I understood how you know, law worked, 0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:48.320 the difference between and what was on the books and 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:52.640 what happened in real life. But I think what I 0:15:52.720 --> 0:15:57.680 have learned over the years is that people in power, 0:15:57.720 --> 0:16:03.320 whether it's judges or prosecutors or members of Congress, actually 0:16:03.360 --> 0:16:07.680 have a lot more space and discretion that's perfectly legal 0:16:07.720 --> 0:16:12.360 to use in ways that take into consideration the very 0:16:12.400 --> 0:16:17.080 real human beings in front of them, and that there 0:16:17.080 --> 0:16:20.480 are ways that judges can get, you know, I can say, 0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:24.680 get away with doing good or get away with doing bad. 0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:27.120 And I know that seems very simplistic, but the examine 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:32.160 example would be someone like Judge Cannon in Florida slowing 0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:36.320 things down in the document's trial, doing these little things 0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:39.680 that will delay, being hostile toward the prosecutors acting in 0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:42.720 a way with our discretion. That doesn't like really line 0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:45.760 up like these other defendants who deserve actually to have 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:49.720 independent counsel not or at least have a discussion with 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:52.040 independent counsel so they can make a choice whether they 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:54.720 want to still be with the lawyer that's going to 0:16:54.840 --> 0:16:57.720 that works for Trump and therefore or you know, I 0:16:57.720 --> 0:16:59.440 would say works for Trump is on the side of 0:16:59.480 --> 0:17:02.920 the you know, the sort of the other defendants who 0:17:02.920 --> 0:17:04.520 are allied with Trump, in other words, can they have an 0:17:04.560 --> 0:17:08.119 independent council representing them or at least the option. And 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:10.359 you know, the fact that she's kind of delaying and 0:17:10.720 --> 0:17:13.680 standing in the way of that is really a problem. 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:17.879 And yet there's no actual way, there's no mechanism to 0:17:17.920 --> 0:17:19.879 stop her, similar to the fact that if a different 0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:23.320 judge were in that position, they could actively say in 0:17:23.359 --> 0:17:27.840 my courtroom, I want the truth to come out, and 0:17:27.880 --> 0:17:30.200 I want every defendant if there's a conflict of interest 0:17:30.200 --> 0:17:33.480 to have real representation, which seems to be fully in 0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:36.119 line with the Constitution, and they could do the opposite. 0:17:36.160 --> 0:17:38.560 So I guess what I would say is people who 0:17:38.640 --> 0:17:42.160 hide behind this idea that the judge is just sort 0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:45.399 of like you know, turning on the lights, turning on 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:47.880 the justice, you know, the you know, the balls and strikes, 0:17:48.040 --> 0:17:50.840 turning on the you know, the electric picture, and they're 0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:52.879 just going to like stand there as an umpire and 0:17:52.880 --> 0:17:55.480 watch things go by. It's not actually how law works. 0:17:55.560 --> 0:17:57.240 Because I think of a you know, a good judge 0:17:57.240 --> 0:18:00.679 I really admire and Nancy Gertner, who was a judge 0:18:01.440 --> 0:18:03.600 in Massachusetts. I had lunch with her last year and 0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:06.480 she spoke to our students, and it was incredible about 0:18:06.560 --> 0:18:09.720 how she talked about how much discretion she could have 0:18:10.240 --> 0:18:14.119 when she was dealing with young defendants, defendants, you know who, 0:18:14.280 --> 0:18:16.880 especially in criminal defendants. The things that she would do 0:18:17.320 --> 0:18:21.359 within her discretion to create time, to create space, to 0:18:21.400 --> 0:18:25.320 create opportunities for fairness and justice. It almost like brought 0:18:25.320 --> 0:18:28.800 tears to my eyes. So, you know, I think I 0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:31.359 think it's really I think, you know, the overwhelm that 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:36.520 you talk about the overwhelm around us can obscure for 0:18:36.640 --> 0:18:39.919 us that sometimes it's just one person in front of 0:18:39.960 --> 0:18:44.480 us that we're dealing with, and that you know, even 0:18:44.520 --> 0:18:47.040 if it's your job where you see tens of thousands 0:18:47.080 --> 0:18:50.320 of people, that's the person across from you where it's 0:18:50.359 --> 0:18:53.800 their only time, their first time in something terrified out 0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:57.920 of their minds, or maybe it's happened again and again 0:18:57.960 --> 0:18:59.959 and they've got some trauma. It doesn't even matter if 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:02.679 it's a criminal defendant or even a civil defendant. This 0:19:02.720 --> 0:19:07.320 summer's business, someone's whatever it is everyone in front of you. 0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:10.639 You can choose your humanity or you can choose to 0:19:10.720 --> 0:19:14.440 hide behind systems and not look at your own role. 0:19:14.680 --> 0:19:16.600 And you know, there's a lot of space for that. 0:19:16.800 --> 0:19:20.199 The law is the law. Sometimes you know there's interpreting 0:19:20.640 --> 0:19:23.800 the law, but very often there's legal precedent that guides 0:19:23.840 --> 0:19:26.280 what you need to do. But there's also a lot 0:19:26.320 --> 0:19:29.800 of space in how you conduct yourself. And I you know, anyway, 0:19:30.040 --> 0:19:31.480 I hope that answered your question. 0:19:31.520 --> 0:19:34.520 It does, but jen with a couple of minutes that 0:19:34.560 --> 0:19:36.320 we have left, I do want to ask you this, 0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:47.879 which is you know the law and the integrity of 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:52.520 the law and our faith in the legal system is 0:19:52.680 --> 0:19:57.160 wavering greatly at this time. Our faith that the constitution 0:19:57.560 --> 0:20:01.239 will hold, that those that take in both right and 0:20:01.280 --> 0:20:04.439 sign up for their duties will do so from a 0:20:04.520 --> 0:20:10.359 place centered around humanity, that seems to be wavering and faltering. 0:20:10.920 --> 0:20:16.440 And I'm just curious as to you know, this next year, 0:20:16.560 --> 0:20:19.680 twenty twenty four is like the year of law, it's 0:20:19.720 --> 0:20:23.320 the year of democracy, it's the year of humanity. What 0:20:23.440 --> 0:20:27.560 do you I guess, what is allowing you if you 0:20:28.080 --> 0:20:32.959 can hold on to hopefulness and faith that the systems 0:20:33.280 --> 0:20:36.200 will hold. 0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:43.440 Interesting premise, Okay, the systems, Yeah, don't. I don't. It's 0:20:43.480 --> 0:20:46.240 so interesting that you ask that, because I don't have 0:20:46.720 --> 0:20:50.280 that faith that the systems will hold. I think some 0:20:50.440 --> 0:20:56.600 systems have broken already and they could be possibly repaired. 0:20:56.680 --> 0:20:59.000 I think the fact, I think, I'll tell you the 0:20:59.040 --> 0:21:02.080 fact that we have of the leading candidate for the 0:21:02.160 --> 0:21:06.040 major political party being someone who's under four indictments major 0:21:06.080 --> 0:21:10.360 civil cases, has been adjudicated a equivalent of a rapist. 0:21:11.320 --> 0:21:14.439 Need I go on and oh oh, and even perhaps 0:21:14.440 --> 0:21:20.639 more importantly, over refused to refuse to acknowledge the legitimate, 0:21:20.720 --> 0:21:25.000 lawful results of an election and orchestrated a failed coup. 0:21:26.480 --> 0:21:28.760 So so where is the part about how the how 0:21:28.800 --> 0:21:35.360 things held? Where are you seeing that? I rather think 0:21:35.440 --> 0:21:37.200 that it's broken and we're trying to put it back 0:21:37.200 --> 0:21:40.640 together right now because this idea of like feeling, oh 0:21:40.640 --> 0:21:42.639 my god, is this thing going to fall apart? Feels 0:21:42.640 --> 0:21:44.080 like a lot of pressure. I'm kind of like, well, 0:21:44.119 --> 0:21:45.800 this is a shit show. Am I allowed to say that? 0:21:46.040 --> 0:21:48.880 You know? This is a disaster. This is a disaster, 0:21:49.480 --> 0:21:54.760 and now we're in rebuilding because I just I don't 0:21:54.800 --> 0:21:56.320 I don't want to do this. Will it hold? It 0:21:56.320 --> 0:21:57.480 hasn't helped, It has not held. 0:21:57.640 --> 0:22:01.080 And see and I and I you're putting me in 0:22:01.119 --> 0:22:04.119 a role that I'm not often in, Uh, you know 0:22:04.240 --> 0:22:07.720 which I'm trying to be in, which is optimism, which 0:22:07.760 --> 0:22:10.919 is that you know, did it hold? I think that 0:22:11.040 --> 0:22:16.280 because we're not under the Trump regime and administration right now, 0:22:16.960 --> 0:22:21.360 it did hold? Right Like, if if he had been successful, 0:22:21.720 --> 0:22:24.480 if all of these people now that have now been 0:22:24.520 --> 0:22:30.560 indicted were successful, we would be three years into the 0:22:31.119 --> 0:22:33.960 whenever Trump, you know, decided that he was going to 0:22:34.040 --> 0:22:37.160 be done and pass on his kingdom to his kids. 0:22:37.480 --> 0:22:39.720 Do you know what I'm saying so like that in 0:22:39.880 --> 0:22:42.680 that respect, you're actually cheering me up. 0:22:43.280 --> 0:22:46.199 Yes, I told you when I told you yesterday that 0:22:46.240 --> 0:22:48.640 I was cracked open and broken. Now do you see 0:22:48.640 --> 0:22:50.640 what I'm saying. If you're cheering me up? 0:22:51.119 --> 0:22:54.560 Thank you, Danielle, You're welcome because it's because I mean, 0:22:54.600 --> 0:22:57.200 I just want because I know that so many things 0:22:57.200 --> 0:23:01.560 are bad. But the truth is is that if they like, 0:23:01.600 --> 0:23:05.199 we're able to call it a failed coup because we 0:23:05.280 --> 0:23:08.280 are not living in the second term of the Trump 0:23:08.280 --> 0:23:14.359 administration right like, that's the reality. Donald Trump has been indicted. 0:23:14.520 --> 0:23:16.880 He has ninety one charges against him. Now we will 0:23:16.920 --> 0:23:21.040 see if the criminal justice system works in the way 0:23:21.080 --> 0:23:24.080 that it should, which currently you know, the fact that 0:23:24.160 --> 0:23:27.960 he has charges against him, Okay, But in my humble opinion, 0:23:28.000 --> 0:23:30.720