1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 2 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much 3 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: for tuning in. Let's hear it for a super producer 4 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:36,559 Speaker 1: who might as well be a member of the family, 5 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 1: mister Max Williams. 6 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 2: Who all in the family here. No, that sounds weird. 7 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:45,879 Speaker 2: That's wrong, That's not what I meant. I take it 8 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:48,920 Speaker 2: all back. Yeah, I don't know. Look, first of all, 9 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 2: maybe not trigger warning, I guess. But you know, sometimes 10 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 2: on a show called Ridiculous History, we do brush up 11 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 2: against topics that aren't inherently ridiculous or they're like sad 12 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 2: or are just kind of you know, messed up in 13 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 2: some way, shape or form, and then we often follow 14 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:07,120 Speaker 2: these well, it was a different time, but today we 15 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 2: are talking about incests. Let's just get it out there 16 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 2: to a degree, and we're not saying like, wow, that's 17 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:19,039 Speaker 2: some wacky stuff, these wacky cousin marrying geniuses, historical figures. 18 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 2: That's not the take that we're offering up at all. 19 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 2: But it is an interesting story or an interesting series 20 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 2: of stories just the same. And yeah, it was a 21 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:29,040 Speaker 2: different time. 22 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:33,279 Speaker 1: I'm Ben or Noel, and today we are talking about 23 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 1: people who married their first cousins throughout history. You know, 24 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:39,120 Speaker 1: as we said, we wanted a little bit of a 25 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 1: disclaimer at the top, and we are going to explore 26 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 1: this respectfully because as we'll see throughout the years, there 27 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: were often a lot there were a lot of social pressures, 28 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 1: and there were a lot of intervening variables or conditions 29 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 1: that will make more sense as we continue. Look, you know, 30 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 1: and shout out to research associate Max for this. There 31 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 1: are a lot of people in the world and if 32 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 1: you look at it, if you've ever done some of 33 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 1: those distant cousin quizzes and things like that, you know 34 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 1: that humanity is at least somewhat related to each other, 35 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: every member of it, right, and it increases exponentially the 36 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:23,359 Speaker 1: further away go, and like cousinship, But we also want 37 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 1: to add as a disclaimer, there are very serious, proven 38 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 1: scientific reasons why you should not marry or procreate with 39 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 1: people who are too closely related to you. And what 40 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 1: we're going to see today is that whether you are 41 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: a world renowned scientist, a infamous dictator, or an outlaw, 42 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 1: there are plenty of folks from so many demographics across 43 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 1: history who have not just married a cousin, which happens 44 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 1: still in the modern day, but married a first cousin 45 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 1: a pretty immediate relationship the one. 46 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 2: And you know, you did mention that this does still 47 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 2: happen from time to time to this day. But we 48 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 2: also historically have massive precedent for this in the form 49 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:14,640 Speaker 2: of royalty, you know. I mean they were marrying all 50 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 2: kinds of closely related blood relatives in an effort to 51 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 2: maintain a semblance of some sort of bloodline, you know. 52 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 2: And we also know that over time, sometimes not very 53 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 2: many generations, marrying within one's family in this way can 54 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 2: cause some serious issues and thinking of the Habsburg defects, 55 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 2: you know, problems with you know, things like hemophilia, all 56 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 2: kinds of issues. Yes, exactly, Ben the habsburgs. We're not 57 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 2: really talking about royalty today because those are sort of 58 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 2: the obvious ones, right, We're talking about folks who you 59 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 2: might not think of, like Albert Einstein, Yeah, famous braini. 60 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 1: Act I had a theory of relativity that goes outside 61 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 1: the world of physics. Of not walking away from that joke, 62 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 1: he had a turbulent relationship when he married his first cousin. 63 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: And we want to shout out Kara Goldfarb. Over All 64 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 1: this interesting, she said, quote, you don't have to be 65 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 1: Einstein to make a marriage work. In fact, you probably 66 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: shouldn't be. So let's talk about Elsa Einstein. She's often 67 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:24,720 Speaker 1: thought of as Albert's ryder die, you know, his number 68 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:29,720 Speaker 1: one person. She knew how to handle this brilliant, at 69 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: times difficult physicist. She nursed him back to health in 70 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:37,679 Speaker 1: nineteen seventeen when he got very very ill. She also 71 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: once he became a global celebrity, she was always with him, 72 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: trotting across the globe. But once you cut past the 73 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 1: surface level info and the headlines and all that stuff, 74 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: you see a darker picture. So Elsa was born Elsa 75 00:04:55,680 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: Einstein on January eighteenth, eighteen seventy six. Father is a 76 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:04,280 Speaker 1: guy named Rudolph. He is the cousin of Albert Einstein's father. 77 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:10,359 Speaker 2: But it does get a little weirder. Her mother and 78 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 2: Albert's mother were also related, like I, as closely related 79 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 2: as two women can be. They were sisters, and so 80 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:25,480 Speaker 2: Elsa and Albert were first cousins. Yeah, that's right, they're 81 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:29,599 Speaker 2: first cousins. Some of this lineage stuff gets makes your 82 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 2: head spin a little bit, but sure to make sure 83 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:34,599 Speaker 2: where yes, the in fact they were first cousins. 84 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,159 Speaker 3: My brain is still hurting from researching some of the 85 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 3: tangents in trivia later on. 86 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:41,599 Speaker 4: It is rough, it gets rough. 87 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 1: But we're in this together. And so when Elsa gets 88 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: married to Einstein, it's not her first marriage. She actually 89 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:53,559 Speaker 1: marries another guy named Max Lowenthal in eighteen ninety six, 90 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 1: and this couple goes on to have three children before 91 00:05:56,440 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 1: they divorced in nineteen oh eight. And Elsa Rique's her 92 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 1: maiden name at that time. So during her marriage, her 93 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 1: first marriage, she's Elsa Loenthal. After the divorce, she's Elsa Einstein, 94 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: and she marries Albert Einstein. Now, of course the couple 95 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:16,280 Speaker 1: was aware of their relationship. Having the same last name 96 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 1: is you know, it's a bit of a clue. And 97 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 1: Einstein also had a marriage previous to this. He married 98 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 1: a lady named Meliva Maria, a Serbian mathematician, in nineteen 99 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:34,920 Speaker 1: oh three, and it looks like they had a honeymoon period. 100 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:38,359 Speaker 1: They were charmed with each other, impressing each other. But 101 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:42,479 Speaker 1: if you go back through an archive of letters Einstein 102 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: wrote during his lifetime, more than fourteen hundred, then it 103 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 1: looks that over time he became detached, aloof and even 104 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,719 Speaker 1: a little bit cruel to his first wife, Meliva. 105 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:55,839 Speaker 2: That's right. I mean, you know, we often hear about 106 00:06:55,839 --> 00:07:02,359 Speaker 2: how difficult and at times vicious, brilliant human beings can be, 107 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 2: and Albert Einstein was no different. During this period, he 108 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 2: was starting to get closer and closer to Elsa. This 109 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 2: is nineteen twelve we're talking about here, and he was 110 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 2: still married to his first wife, Maria, who he apparently 111 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 2: treated abominably. He and Elsa had grown up together, you know, 112 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 2: so there was some fondness there already. You know, you 113 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 2: would think familial cousinly fondness that I guess was reassessed 114 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 2: in a somewhat bizarre fashion. But it was only around 115 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 2: that time that we mentioned, nineteen twelve, that they started 116 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 2: to develop a kind of a letter writing relationship, right, 117 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 2: that began to eat its way into romantic territory. Yeah, 118 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 2: courting via post and which was a thing people used 119 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:01,760 Speaker 2: to write letters. Massive beautiful romances were forged when people 120 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 2: couldn't be there face to face through letters. We have 121 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 2: tons of record of this in history. 122 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 1: I like Simone de Beauvier, that's a great correspondence real 123 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 1: ky of course. So Einstein falls sick like I said earlier, 124 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 1: and Elsa shows up and she takes care of Albert, 125 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 1: she nurses him back to health. In nineteen nineteen, he 126 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: divorces his first wife, and then he marries Elsa shortly 127 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 1: after in the same year, on June second, nineteen nineteen, 128 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 1: like pretty much right after his divorce is finalized. And 129 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 1: we've got a quote from him that shows he is 130 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: a little bit he's not quite Tinto's down on this. 131 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 1: He says, quote, the attempts to force me into marriage 132 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 1: come from my cousin's parents and is mainly attributable to 133 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 1: vanity through moral prejudice, which is still very much alive 134 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 1: in the old generation. So he's saying, they're making me 135 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 1: marry her because they think we're living in sin. 136 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 2: And that was often a prime factor, you know, and 137 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 2: what led to people getting married in those days, the 138 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 2: idea of making an honest man out of you or whatever, 139 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 2: you know, living in sin in the eyes of God 140 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 2: and doing right by that. So, yeah, we see a 141 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 2: lot of marriages that were not desired by both parties 142 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 2: as well, right. 143 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 1: Lots of social pressure and you know, Albert repeats the 144 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 1: same pattern that he did with his first wife. Over time, 145 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 1: he becomes increasingly distant from Elsa. He in fact, has 146 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:45,440 Speaker 1: a series of affairs with a number of women, younger women. 147 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:49,680 Speaker 1: And even though we know that Elsa's children from her 148 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 1: previous marriage thought of old al as a father figure, 149 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 1: it turns out he also kind of had a budding 150 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:06,679 Speaker 1: like Allen thing with his eldest stepdaughter. Oh good, he 151 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 1: actually thought of At one point he was like, I'm 152 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:13,839 Speaker 1: I know, I'm engaged to Elsa, my cousin, but I 153 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 1: might break it off and propose to her daughter instead. 154 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 5: Okay, wow, Albert Einstein, you know, the more you dig 155 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 5: into some of these folks, the less they deserve to 156 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 5: be on the cover of a children's book with a 157 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 5: giant head. 158 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 2: You know what I mean. 159 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:35,959 Speaker 1: You know what I mean. It's theory or relativity. 160 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 2: Indeed, yeah, it's interesting. But again, like you know, the 161 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 2: idea of becoming isolated and becoming distant, and you know, 162 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:44,679 Speaker 2: we see this with artists, We see this with you know, 163 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 2: folks who are just obsessed and consumed by their work. 164 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 2: And again, not to psychoanalyze Albert Einstein on a podcast, 165 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 2: but like I could see how a guy like that 166 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 2: would see a woman as someone that was there for 167 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 2: his gratification, you know, someone that is there to distract 168 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 2: him from his stressful existence and his toilings, you know, 169 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:08,079 Speaker 2: mental toilings. 170 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 1: You know, it happens. It happens a lot, you know, 171 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 1: very driven people. Isaac Asimov did not have a happy 172 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:18,079 Speaker 1: marital life. A lot of authors didn't, and a lot 173 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 1: of scientists didn't, you know. And at the same time, 174 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:25,560 Speaker 1: nothing happens in a vacuum. As we always say, it's 175 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: the nineteen thirties, let's fast forward to their anti Semitism 176 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 1: is on a dangerous rise, and a lot of right 177 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 1: wing groups start targeting Albert Einstein. So eventually he and 178 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,079 Speaker 1: Elsa say, we're going to have to relocate the family. 179 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 1: It's nineteen thirty three. Things are not looking good in Germany, 180 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 1: so we're going to move to the United States, and 181 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:52,319 Speaker 1: they put down roots in Princeton, New Jersey. The disasters 182 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 1: keep coming because shortly after they move, Elsa gets news 183 00:11:55,760 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 1: that her daughter Ilsa has developed cancer. She was living 184 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: in Paris at the time, so her mom goes to 185 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 1: France to be with her in her final days. This 186 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 1: is definitely terminal condition. She comes back to the US 187 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty five, and Elsa now has health issues, medical 188 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 1: conditions of her own heart and liver problems that just 189 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: keep getting worse. And what does Albert do. He closes 190 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 1: the door to his study figuratively, and he keeps click 191 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 1: clacking away on his work. 192 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 2: And sadly, Elsa passed away on December twentieth of nineteen 193 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:35,440 Speaker 2: thirty six in that home in Princeton, New Jersey. And 194 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 2: you know, for as much of a sob as Einstein 195 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 2: comes off in the story, it is reported that he 196 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 2: was genuinely at a loss over her passing, and a 197 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 2: family friend, a guy named Peter Buckney, said it was 198 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:59,200 Speaker 2: the first and only time he saw Albert Einstein cry. 199 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: And you know, everybody knows that any relationship, no matter 200 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 1: how beautiful, can have a lot of ups and downs, 201 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:12,719 Speaker 1: and it can be difficult to maintain any long term relationship. 202 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:15,120 Speaker 1: You know, you really have to show up every day 203 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:18,840 Speaker 1: for it. And we're not saying, obviously that Elsa and 204 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 1: Albert had the perfect marriage, but it does show us 205 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:28,960 Speaker 1: that he had emotional difficulties. Right, a brilliant physicist, but 206 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 1: not a super emotionally aware person. And we know this 207 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:37,199 Speaker 1: because of a letter he wrote to the son of 208 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:41,320 Speaker 1: one of his friends. His friend, Michelle Besso had passed away, 209 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 1: and Albert wrote this, what I admire and your father 210 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 1: is that for his whole life he stayed with only 211 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 1: one woman. That is a project in which I grossly 212 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 1: failed twice way to make it about you, bro. That's 213 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:53,679 Speaker 1: really weird. 214 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 2: That is a little weird. Yeah, there's no question. And 215 00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 2: again shout out to Kara gold Farm for all that's interesting. 216 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 2: Who hipped us to a lot of these very interesting 217 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 2: facts about you know, ultimately a great man, not necessarily 218 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 2: a great husband, you know. 219 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, and it jump in here. 220 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 3: I mean, so when I was writing this, there's a 221 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 3: lot of people who marry their first cousins, so I 222 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 3: try to pick people are kind of closer to us 223 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 3: in history and also ones that I could have that 224 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 3: there's plenty of research materials about, Like sure some of 225 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 3: these people can't find them about. When I picked these 226 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 3: three people, I did not expect to be grossed out 227 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 3: the most bi Albert Einstein. Of these three, I'm like, 228 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 3: this isn't gonna be the one that gross me out 229 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 3: the most, too. 230 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:41,239 Speaker 1: Well, don't worry about this right, as you know, will continue. 231 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 1: We will continue by going to the Middle East. The infamous, 232 00:14:54,440 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 1: infamously bad romance novelist and also a dictator of rock 233 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 1: for some time. Saddam Hussein. 234 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 2: I see, he. 235 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 1: Kinda had a pull quote for me here, one of 236 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 1: history's few truly bad guys. I agree with that. We 237 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 1: have so many strange things to talk about when it 238 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 1: comes to Hussein. He did write a copy of the 239 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 1: Quran in his own blood, for instance. He also he 240 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 1: also married his cousin, he sure did. 241 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 2: And Saddam Hussein's a guy that kind of didn't really 242 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 2: have many guardrails on the things that he felt that 243 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 2: he could or could not do. That's sort of the 244 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 2: way of the of the dictator. And you know, it's funny. 245 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 2: A lot of these I feel like, these, these individuals 246 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 2: we're talking about today could be their own episode of 247 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 2: Behind the Bastards. Pretty sure Saddam's got a few. Yeah, 248 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 2: but it's true. We don't know a whole lot though 249 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 2: about the first marriage that Saddam Hussein had to Saji 250 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 2: Sajida Talfa. We get this from Gina de muro Over 251 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 2: at all. That's interesting as well. Quote here from this piece. 252 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 2: Given that it is hard to step the fact from 253 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 2: the hearsay, often the little that is known concerning his 254 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 2: wife is just as disturbing as the worst rumors. Was 255 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 2: often the case, once again for folks like this, a 256 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 2: lot of smoke probably an awful lot of fire too. 257 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 2: So Saddam Hussein and Sajita Talfa had an arranged marriage 258 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 2: that was arranged by their parents when they were only 259 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 2: ten years old. This was agreed upon. Sajita was also 260 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 2: a Saddam's uncle's daughter, which by the whole cousin math 261 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 2: thing comes back to first cousins, right. 262 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, And we do have to say, you know, in 263 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 1: a place where people have arranged marriages, being related in 264 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 1: some way to your spouse or your would be spouse 265 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 1: was not considered necessarily a bad thing or a deal breaker. Oftentimes, 266 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 1: arranged marriages or negotiations between branches or clans of a 267 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 1: family right to further solidify some of the things we 268 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, you know, influenced lineage and so on. So 269 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 1: the couple gets hitched around nineteen sixty three. Even today 270 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 1: people aren't sure what the exact date was. They did 271 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:23,400 Speaker 1: go on to have five different children, and by most accounts, Sajida, 272 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:27,159 Speaker 1: who had been a school teacher before marrying Saddam, she 273 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:31,959 Speaker 1: liked the marriage. She liked some of the side benefits 274 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 1: because her husband was high ranking in the government, of course, 275 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:40,399 Speaker 1: and she enjoyed the social status. She was flexing with 276 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 1: designer clothes from Europe wherein jewelry. She dyed her hair blonde, 277 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:49,199 Speaker 1: and she became the first lady of a rock right. So, 278 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: one woman who met her said she aspired to be 279 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: light skinned and coated her face with so much powder 280 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: that it looked like quote, someone had thrown flour on her. 281 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 1: That's a pretty pretty rude, body shamy thing to say. 282 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, yeah, it's not great, but she wasn't super 283 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 2: pleasant either. That's that is that is what you hear 284 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:13,120 Speaker 2: also been. I believe the of the five children they had, 285 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 2: two of them were like the worst ones, like the 286 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 2: ones that you heard like, you know, I think whipping 287 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 2: the losing soccer team on the bottoms of their feet, 288 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:24,919 Speaker 2: ude and kuse during that period, you know, when they 289 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 2: are just absolute, absolute monsters. And I think there's there's 290 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 2: there's a couple of dramatized you know, kind of biopics 291 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:34,919 Speaker 2: about them. If I'm not mistaken, it's like called like 292 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:36,640 Speaker 2: the Devil's something or other. 293 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 1: That's right, Yeah, he I know. I did some research 294 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:46,959 Speaker 1: on Uday in particular, and he was just absolutely like 295 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:50,199 Speaker 1: a King Jeffrey from Game of Thrones, that level of 296 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 1: cartoonishly evil. And he had the you're you're talking about 297 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 1: the national football team. That's whenever they lost a match, 298 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:00,639 Speaker 1: he would he would have them arrested in Orchard. He 299 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:04,880 Speaker 1: did that with Olympic athletes representing Iraq as well. Now 300 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 1: that has nothing to do with the fact that his 301 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,359 Speaker 1: parents were cousins. He's just so bad that we're gonna 302 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 1: mention it. 303 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, very bad that The film I was talking about, 304 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:14,439 Speaker 2: by the way, it is called The Devil's Double. It 305 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:17,920 Speaker 2: came out in twenty eleven and it is about a 306 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 2: about body doubles, exactly the body double or political decoy 307 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 2: for Uday Hussein, who is played in the film by 308 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 2: Dominick Cooper, who plays both Ouda and La tiff Yahia, 309 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 2: who is the double. I would like to see this 310 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,200 Speaker 2: film and as an incredible poster, by the way, where 311 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 2: it's like oday sitting in a golden throne and everything's 312 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:42,360 Speaker 2: gold and He's completely painted gold head to toe. It's 313 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:45,200 Speaker 2: a really striking image. Reminds me of something like David 314 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 2: la Chappelle would do. 315 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 1: I did see The Devil's Double. I enjoyed it. It 316 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:52,359 Speaker 1: was during my I can't remeber what project it was 317 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:56,879 Speaker 1: for nihilistic film viewing period. Researching, I can'mero which project 318 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:00,440 Speaker 1: it was. Whereas researching a lot of dictators that time, 319 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:06,360 Speaker 1: all of whom have really interesting and disturbing stories. Saddam 320 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 1: is no different. Oh, shopkeepers in Bagdad. By the way, 321 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 1: we're very scared of Saddam's wife because she refused to 322 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:21,160 Speaker 1: pay full price for anything. She's apparently quite vindictive, and 323 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 1: opponents of the regime said she was just as violent 324 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:29,159 Speaker 1: and greedy as her husband. But Saddam controls the press, 325 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 1: you know, and he and his forces go out of 326 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 1: their way to make sure anything about his family just 327 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 1: shows him in the best lie ever, A super doting father, 328 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:44,480 Speaker 1: a very committed husband. There's an interview in nineteen seventy 329 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 1: eight where he says the most important thing about a 330 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 1: marriage is that the man must not let the woman 331 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 1: feel downtrodden, simply because she is a woman and he 332 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 1: is a man. That's pretty cool to say, right, that's 333 00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 1: very I think that is a very human and realistic 334 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 1: thing to say. But how much of those, you know, 335 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,679 Speaker 1: propagandist statements, like how true were they when the cameras 336 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:11,399 Speaker 1: were rolling? 337 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 2: But again back to dictators, they also you know, they 338 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 2: like to both f around and find out, but they 339 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 2: don't really have to reap any consequences. And when I 340 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 2: say f around, I just mean, you know, sleep around. 341 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 2: It is pretty common, open secret that anybody at that 342 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 2: level of power, absolute power, is going to do whatever 343 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 2: that person wants to do in terms of having multiple partners, 344 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 2: and Sadam was no exception. Despite that rosy image that 345 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 2: he would have had the press portray him as those 346 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 2: those rose colored glasses, you know, him as the doting 347 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 2: father of the family man and all that not the case. 348 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:54,160 Speaker 2: The marriage was largely for show, Asidam carried on numerous affairs, 349 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 2: one mistress in particular that truly was kind of his 350 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 2: number one, some Shabunder. Yeah. 351 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, And they were both already married to other people. 352 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: That didn't stop them from having a secret wedding in 353 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty six, and he and Shabandhar started appearing publicly 354 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:21,399 Speaker 1: in the late nineteen eighties. Shajdah is super unhappy about this, 355 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 1: as is the rest of the family, including Saddam's brother 356 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 1: in law and Saddam's first cousin, due to the nature 357 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 1: of the marriage. They were talking about dishonor. 358 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess that's my question. Ben is like, why 359 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 2: do that, Like, why actually have a double marriage? Is 360 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:43,159 Speaker 2: it literally just because you can? Because you know narcissism. 361 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,119 Speaker 2: I would say it's classic rules shouldn't apply to me. 362 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:50,240 Speaker 2: I am the main character of everything, and that's I mean, 363 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 2: that's a very simplistic way to put it, but there 364 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,120 Speaker 2: it is. He clearly did not feel. 365 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 1: Bound by More's or by the strength of his word 366 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 1: in vows. This guy, Saddam's brother in law, a guy 367 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:07,640 Speaker 1: named Adnan Kayirala, and we're not native speakers here, Thank 368 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,639 Speaker 1: you for bearing with us. This guy is complaining a 369 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:15,880 Speaker 1: little too much. He's starting to contradict the super happy, 370 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: faultless image Saddam spends so much time building, and so 371 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:29,359 Speaker 1: ad Noon dies in a helicopter crash, a freak helicopter crash. 372 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:34,159 Speaker 1: It's a freak crash because Saddam's bodyguards plant explosives on 373 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 1: the chopper. 374 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is known, right man, This is not just 375 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 2: kiss confirmed. Okay, cool. Yeah, Saddam's bodyguards did admit that 376 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 2: they planted explosive devices on the helicopter under order from 377 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:50,440 Speaker 2: Saddam himself. Of course, they weren't just doing it as 378 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 2: a little maybe i'll get an Ada boy here. Of course, 379 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 2: during the Gulf War, as we know, a lot of 380 00:23:55,400 --> 00:24:01,159 Speaker 2: members of the Hussein family had to leave Iraq, but 381 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:05,439 Speaker 2: they came back after it concluded, and there was a 382 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,959 Speaker 2: period during this time that Sajita had to give up 383 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 2: her lap of luxury kind of existence. But then she 384 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 2: ultimately had to do it, you know, for real in 385 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,199 Speaker 2: two thousand and three. Yeah. 386 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:24,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's because this was just before the bombing of Baghdad, 387 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:30,200 Speaker 1: like you know, like Outcast talks about. And she, according 388 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:34,440 Speaker 1: to the reports, she sought asylum in Britain with two 389 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:38,879 Speaker 1: of her daughters, and their official applications were never received. 390 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:42,399 Speaker 1: But of course the British government is aware of her past, 391 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 1: and they went public with the following declaration. They said, 392 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,159 Speaker 1: our country is under no obligation to give asylum to 393 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 1: people who've taken part in human rights abuses. They're saying 394 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:57,879 Speaker 1: she's not an innocent. She's not a refugee. She actively 395 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 1: participated in some her horrific things. And another point that 396 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,639 Speaker 1: came up with this was that she was living in 397 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,359 Speaker 1: the lap of luxury. She had a very opulent life 398 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 1: during her heyday, and all this wealth they accrued came 399 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 1: at a tremendous, profoundly disturbing cost to people of Iraq 400 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:23,159 Speaker 1: who were being thrown in prison by a police state 401 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 1: were often living in crushing poverty. So their argument was, 402 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 1: even if she was not directly involved in torture and 403 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,679 Speaker 1: murder carried out by the regime, all the wealth she 404 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:36,120 Speaker 1: had was blood money. 405 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:40,399 Speaker 2: Right, and she was. I mean, look, we can't really, 406 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 2: we can't really attest to the exact levels of like 407 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 2: culpability or you know, what she knew when she knew it. 408 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 2: It's tough to get exact there or even rough but likely, 409 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:57,439 Speaker 2: you know, living in that environment, it was known. And 410 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,159 Speaker 2: I keep saying that game of throne style, But you know, 411 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,880 Speaker 2: I mean, it's not difficult to figure out what's happening 412 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 2: and where this wealth is coming from if you're paying 413 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 2: even a small amount of attention. Yeah, I don't think. 414 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 1: She was surprised, right, if you had told her what 415 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:15,639 Speaker 1: the regime was doing. I don't think it would have 416 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,879 Speaker 1: been news to her. She's very much, if not a 417 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 1: willing participant, willing to profit from those acts of inhumanity. 418 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 1: And okay, we like Max set it up. We're talking 419 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:30,439 Speaker 1: about three today. We didn't want to end on a 420 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,680 Speaker 1: complete downer Game of Thrones villain style, So let's go 421 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 1: to a very famous person in deep mythos of America. 422 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 1: Let's go to Jesse James. 423 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 2: What was that? Was it? 424 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:55,200 Speaker 1: The assassination of Jesse James by the coward Robert Ford. 425 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:59,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, cool film with a great soundtrack by Nick Cave 426 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,920 Speaker 2: and in a long name, who's the other guy? Warren 427 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:08,399 Speaker 2: ellis not the comic book writer, but the bearded mandolin 428 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 2: violin guitar playing outlaw countryman that hangs out with Nick 429 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,160 Speaker 2: Ka all the time. Really really cool soundtrack and it's 430 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 2: a great film as well. But yeah, Jesse James, pew pew, 431 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:23,879 Speaker 2: In case you missed it was the sound of his 432 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 2: six guns going off, because that guy was a real 433 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 2: ace shooter. 434 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 1: He also was a real violent dude. And we're going 435 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:35,919 Speaker 1: to talk about this phenomenon in an episode coming up 436 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:40,359 Speaker 1: later pretty soon, about how Pirates became prolific in the Caribbean. 437 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:45,520 Speaker 1: This guy wanted to join up in the Civil War, 438 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:49,159 Speaker 1: so he was just a teenager when he connects with 439 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:53,919 Speaker 1: Confederate gorilla forces in eighteen sixty four, and at the 440 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 1: close of the war, he never really stops basically pillaging. 441 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: He knows that the Confederates lose the Civil War and 442 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 1: he becomes an outlaw, and so he's out there knocking 443 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 1: over banks and trains and stagecoaches. Real red dead redemption 444 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 1: two style. 445 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, like you said, Ben, he was such 446 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,679 Speaker 2: a young man when he kind of began this life. 447 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 2: It makes sense that he would just kind of, you know, 448 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 2: stay the course. And he also had some kind of 449 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,439 Speaker 2: familial influences that we're going to get into shortly. But 450 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 2: according to a biography from American Experience, Jesse was born 451 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 2: in Clay County, Missouri, on September fifth, eighteen forty seven. 452 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 2: His parents, Zerelda It's a great name and Robert James, 453 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 2: were hemp farmers. Okay, but well, okay, that's a dang ah. 454 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 2: I mean, like you know, people, I joke. Hemp was 455 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 2: a very very popular cash crop because it was you know, 456 00:28:56,240 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 2: used to make incredibly strong ropes. In fact, a lot 457 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 2: of the ropes in chips and even in theaters, for example, 458 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 2: they're referred to as hemps. Still to this day. It's 459 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 2: sort of like an old timey term for like really 460 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 2: strong road because in the old days, hemp was a 461 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 2: very available and popular material for making these. 462 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 1: And of course, you know, as we always want to 463 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 1: point out, this was not the kind of this was 464 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 1: not the kind of plant that you would smoke. It was, 465 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 1: as you said, mainly for industrial uses, making rope, making fiber, 466 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:35,719 Speaker 1: sometimes for clothing and so on. So they grow up 467 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,719 Speaker 1: on this hemp farm. Like you said, Jesse and his 468 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 1: older brother Frank watched the Civil War erupt and they 469 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,720 Speaker 1: decide they're going to march off from Clay County, Missouri 470 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 1: to fight for the Confederate cause. At this point, Jesse 471 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 1: James is still probably too young to go to war, 472 00:29:55,560 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 1: but he tells his parents Robert James, and his mom is, look, 473 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 1: I'm gonna go. I want to fight for the Confederates. 474 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 1: Zerrella's full name, by the way, is Zerelda Elizabeth Cole, 475 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 1: James Simms, Samuel, Sorry, why why are we telling you that? 476 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 1: Because we want you to make up a silly song 477 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 1: about it. And also because this will come into play 478 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 1: with the with the cousin coupling later and. 479 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:23,880 Speaker 2: As we talked about, you know, with some kind of 480 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 2: familial bonds, perhaps leading to a sense of righteous indignation 481 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,960 Speaker 2: on the part of young Jesse James, his brother, you know, 482 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:38,640 Speaker 2: going off and supporting a band of pro Confederate militiaman 483 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 2: you know, gorillas actually brought down the iron fist of 484 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 2: the Union on Jesse and his family. Jesse and his 485 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 2: stepfather were beaten and tortured for information by these folks 486 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:57,560 Speaker 2: because of what what Frank had done. 487 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this punishment, this which very much was may 488 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 1: have been the spark that led Jesse ultimately to join 489 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 1: a group of garias led by a guy named Bloody 490 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 1: Bill Anderson in the spring of eighteen sixty four. He's 491 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 1: just sixteen, but he's seen things no sixteen year old 492 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:21,400 Speaker 1: should ever have to see, and so he joins like 493 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 1: blood Meridian style and propagates this violence. They terrorize pro 494 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 1: Union folks sympathizers across the Missouri countryside. Jesse James participates 495 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 1: in a lot of deeply unclean stuff, including the Centralia 496 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:42,720 Speaker 1: massacre in which twenty two unarmed Union soldiers at a 497 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 1: hundred other Union soldiers are utterly butchered. He has bathed 498 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 1: in blood, right, he has baptized into a life of 499 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 1: incredibly violent activity. And you know, when you look at 500 00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 1: these biographies, like we mentioned PBS's American experience, these horrible 501 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:05,720 Speaker 1: formative events created the man he would become when he 502 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 1: grew up. 503 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. And at this point he starts kind 504 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 2: of canodling a little bit with a woman who would 505 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 2: become his wife, nicknamed z Mimes also known as these 506 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 2: names might be familiar to you, Zirelda Amanda Mimes. 507 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 1: I kind of like the internal rhyme. 508 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 2: Did's a very good one. Born on July twenty first, 509 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,960 Speaker 2: eighteen forty five in Logan, Kentucky to a pastor John, 510 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:34,320 Speaker 2: which I love. I just call him pastor John, Pastor 511 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 2: John W. Mims and Mary Mimes. The last name Memes 512 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,240 Speaker 2: is just very charming to me for some reason. Yeah, 513 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 2: Mary Mims, Mary James Memes rather and Zirelda was one 514 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 2: of twelve children that they had together, and her mother 515 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:56,640 Speaker 2: was Robert James's sister, right, Robert James, father of Jesse 516 00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 2: James sister Let's do the cousin math real quick, right, Okay, 517 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 2: where are we at? 518 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 1: Cousin math sounds like a cool down south hip hop beat. 519 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 2: But this they're aware of this, by the way. Oh yeah, 520 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 2: first we're at first, right, first cousins. 521 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 1: The first cousins Jesse and. 522 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,680 Speaker 2: Easiest cousin Math. By the way, Yeah, Jesse and Z. 523 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 1: Are very well aware of their familial connection the relationship, 524 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 1: but they still fall in love. While Jesse is living 525 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:32,560 Speaker 1: temporarily with his aunt and uncle. In eighteen sixty five 526 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:37,120 Speaker 1: in Missouri, the couple gets engaged and the engagement lasts 527 00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 1: nine years. During this time, our buddy Jesse is an 528 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 1: out and out outlaw, the James Younger Gang it was called. 529 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:50,800 Speaker 1: They're in full swing. Eventually, amid all the crime, they 530 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:56,280 Speaker 1: get married at Z's sisters home in Kearney, Missouri. This 531 00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,000 Speaker 1: is on April twenty fourth, eighteen seventy four, and fast 532 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:01,640 Speaker 1: forward about a year a little more. In a year, 533 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 1: Z has her first child, Jesse Edward Tim James Fellow 534 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 1: August baby shout out bro August thirty first, eighteen seventy five. 535 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:16,960 Speaker 1: The couple as twins. Later, just like three years later, 536 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:21,880 Speaker 1: February twenty eighth, eighteen seventy eight. However, there's a tragedy. 537 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 1: The twins are still born, or according to some accounts, 538 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:30,680 Speaker 1: they survive for a little bit, but they pass away 539 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:34,440 Speaker 1: within twenty four hours of being born. You know, of course, 540 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:38,800 Speaker 1: infant mortality very high at this time in American history. 541 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:43,040 Speaker 1: Eighteen seventy nine. The next year, Z has a daughter. 542 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:49,320 Speaker 1: She's named Mary Susan James. She survives, and she actually 543 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:51,600 Speaker 1: outlives the James Younger Gang. 544 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, the James and Younger Gang, not to be 545 00:34:56,200 --> 00:35:00,759 Speaker 2: confused with the incredible I believe a funk band James Gang, 546 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:02,800 Speaker 2: isn't that wasn't a funk band kind of music to 547 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:07,839 Speaker 2: James Gang play sorry in a rock band James James Gang, 548 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,200 Speaker 2: American rock band from Cleveland, Ohio, formed in nineteen sixty six. 549 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:17,160 Speaker 2: Go Cleveland Cleveland Rocks. Yeah, that's right. The James Younger 550 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 2: Gang stopped being active when one of the younger brothers 551 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 2: last why yep were captured during a raid in Northfield, Minnesota. 552 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:35,160 Speaker 2: Around the high damn polite over there, drinking their milk 553 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:39,720 Speaker 2: and eating their cheeses, their fine cheeses. That's Wisconsin and Minnesota. 554 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:43,480 Speaker 2: They like a good cheese in Minnesota as well. So 555 00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:47,600 Speaker 2: Jesse decided to start up a new gang, the James Gang. Yeah, 556 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,719 Speaker 2: h burst of creativity. Yeah, I like it. And they 557 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,279 Speaker 2: did continue a robin and a pillaging and uh, you know, 558 00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:58,680 Speaker 2: holding up trains and the like. And on September seventh 559 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:04,600 Speaker 2: of eighteen eighty one, Glendale, Missouri, they had their last stand. 560 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:08,440 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I mean in terms of not like death, 561 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:10,840 Speaker 2: but like the last big, big heist. 562 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:14,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, one last job. So they hold up this train 563 00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,560 Speaker 1: and then Jesse says, we're gonna move our family to 564 00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 1: a different town, get away from the heat a bit. 565 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:24,000 Speaker 1: It's Saint Joseph, Missouri. That's where they settle under Jesse's 566 00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:27,520 Speaker 1: assumed name. He calls himself Tom Howard. He has a 567 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:32,080 Speaker 1: ten thousand dollars reward over his head. So they have 568 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:34,839 Speaker 1: to they have to try to lie low or lay low. 569 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:40,320 Speaker 1: And Z tries to talk Jesse into living the square life, 570 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:43,440 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, like getting a solid job, 571 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:45,880 Speaker 1: you know, maybe go to church once in a while. 572 00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,080 Speaker 2: And Jesseward's a good square name, by the way. 573 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:52,439 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, And Jesse says, you know what, Hunt, You're right, 574 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:55,800 Speaker 1: I am definitely gonna settle down and have a square life, 575 00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:58,280 Speaker 1: right after one last bank rubber? 576 00:36:58,400 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 2: Oh, how is it gonna go? 577 00:36:59,600 --> 00:36:59,839 Speaker 1: A bit? 578 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 2: Is it gonna go? 579 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:01,200 Speaker 4: Well, it. 580 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 1: Depends on what side of the robbery you're on, right, 581 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:09,400 Speaker 1: So he's planning this robbery, it's so such a trope, 582 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,720 Speaker 1: one last job. He hangs out with Charles and Robert 583 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:17,560 Speaker 1: Ford or Bob Ford to his friends call it. And 584 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:22,719 Speaker 1: while they're planning this robbery, Bob kills Jesse James on 585 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:27,719 Speaker 1: April third, eighteen eighty two. Zee and her children are 586 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:32,920 Speaker 1: in the kitchen when the fatal gunshot occurs, and the kid, 587 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:36,359 Speaker 1: Jesse Junior, runs into the living room. He finds his 588 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:40,200 Speaker 1: father on the floor clearly has been shot in the head. 589 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:44,840 Speaker 1: Ze begins to scream. The little girl Mary starts crying. 590 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:49,160 Speaker 1: This is just an absolutely horrific situation. Zee is on 591 00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:52,439 Speaker 1: herne He's trying to staunch the blood, but it is far, 592 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:56,480 Speaker 1: far too late. Bob or Robert Ford may have been 593 00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,120 Speaker 1: a coward, but he was a good enough shot at 594 00:37:59,160 --> 00:37:59,800 Speaker 1: close range. 595 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:03,000 Speaker 2: Strange exactly, but I always picture, or at least maybe 596 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:06,080 Speaker 2: it's depicted off an in westerns, like someone will get 597 00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,560 Speaker 2: a head shot sometimes right and then not instantly die 598 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:11,400 Speaker 2: or have like the whole side of their head blown 599 00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:15,000 Speaker 2: off if it's with like a maybe a lower caliber pistol. Obviously, 600 00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:18,800 Speaker 2: shotguns a different story, but we're handguns like less powerful 601 00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,239 Speaker 2: in those days. Could you be more likely to get 602 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,120 Speaker 2: winged or even just like you know, even we hear 603 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:27,080 Speaker 2: about people surviving head shots sometimes in these days. 604 00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:29,320 Speaker 1: Sure, there are a lot of variables, you know what 605 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:31,480 Speaker 1: I mean. There's also not a lot of empty space 606 00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,719 Speaker 1: in the human body, so even a weak caliber is 607 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:37,880 Speaker 1: gonna is gonna do some damage. It's a good question 608 00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 1: because there are there are some pistols that were pretty strong, 609 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:44,640 Speaker 1: and then there's some other ones that you would think 610 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:48,840 Speaker 1: were maybe a little more lightweight. But that term shouldn't 611 00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:52,359 Speaker 1: even apply because guns can always be dangerous, you know. 612 00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:57,800 Speaker 1: So we could probably do an entire episode about Jesse 613 00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:02,080 Speaker 1: and Bob's relationship. It does make me want to rewatch 614 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:03,000 Speaker 1: that film, you know. 615 00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:05,080 Speaker 2: I've honestly never seen it, and I would very much 616 00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:06,160 Speaker 2: like to. I think it's great. 617 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:08,600 Speaker 1: I enjoyed it. I enjoy If you're a history buff, 618 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:11,600 Speaker 1: which I guess all three of us are, then you'll 619 00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 1: enjoy it. 620 00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:16,560 Speaker 2: It's fine. History's okay, it's mids three out of five. 621 00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:17,600 Speaker 2: I give history. 622 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:22,879 Speaker 1: But when Jesse dies, a lot of people who are 623 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:27,279 Speaker 1: aware that he is not really Tom Howard, and a 624 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:31,440 Speaker 1: lot of people in the larger United States, they say, well, 625 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:35,120 Speaker 1: this guy committed so many robberies. I bet is what 626 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:38,240 Speaker 1: widow is set for life. But that wasn't the case. 627 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:41,160 Speaker 1: Who was in a really dire straight The only stuff 628 00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:43,760 Speaker 1: they owned they had like a little bit of leftover 629 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:47,239 Speaker 1: stolen jewelry. They had some weapons, and then they had 630 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:51,120 Speaker 1: the things families have photos of each other, you know, 631 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:53,960 Speaker 1: nice letters. Here's a blanket I knit you when you 632 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:57,839 Speaker 1: were but a wee child. So they've got a lot 633 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:01,680 Speaker 1: of debt, and pretty soon they sell almost everything in 634 00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:05,400 Speaker 1: the household at an auction to pay their creditors, and 635 00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:08,720 Speaker 1: Z and the kids have to move in with Z's 636 00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:10,920 Speaker 1: brother in Kansas. 637 00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:13,600 Speaker 2: City, And as is often the case in these types 638 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:17,520 Speaker 2: of situations, it's the children who really get the rough 639 00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:22,000 Speaker 2: end of it. Ze did not emerge from the death 640 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:26,560 Speaker 2: of her husband Jesse unscathed. Despite not being harmed physically, 641 00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:33,520 Speaker 2: she suffered from serious depression and anxiety, crippling her ability 642 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:38,040 Speaker 2: to take care of her kids. She wore black all 643 00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:41,720 Speaker 2: the time and apparently never changed out of this black garb. 644 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,720 Speaker 2: She did not remarry. She became something of a hermit. 645 00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:52,160 Speaker 2: Jesse James Junior had to essentially much earlier than any 646 00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:58,200 Speaker 2: child should, become the primary earner for the household at 647 00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:00,760 Speaker 2: the age of eleven, to take care of his ailing 648 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:02,760 Speaker 2: mother and his young sister. 649 00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:07,640 Speaker 1: And Zie was, in her defense, a woman of integrity 650 00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:11,319 Speaker 1: in some regards. She refused for the rest of her life. 651 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:15,760 Speaker 1: And he offers to publish books or give insight into 652 00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:19,800 Speaker 1: the criminal career of Jesse James, who was already becoming 653 00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:24,640 Speaker 1: larger than life posthumously, he's becoming part of American mythology. 654 00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:27,920 Speaker 1: And she could have made their lives easier if she 655 00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:32,840 Speaker 1: capitalized on the activities of her late husband, but she didn't, 656 00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:36,200 Speaker 1: and so she passed away on November thirteenth, nineteen hundred 657 00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:41,160 Speaker 1: in Kansas City. She was buried in Cemetery Mount Olivet 658 00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:47,200 Speaker 1: in Kearney, Missouri, and about eighteen months later people exhume 659 00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:50,759 Speaker 1: her husband and move him from his original gravesite on 660 00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:54,919 Speaker 1: the James family farm to place his remains next to her. 661 00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:57,759 Speaker 1: And you can find those graves today the next time 662 00:41:57,800 --> 00:41:59,920 Speaker 1: you're in Kurdie, Missouri. 663 00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:01,600 Speaker 2: You're not a bummer ending, didn't we? 664 00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:01,919 Speaker 4: Y'all? 665 00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:04,920 Speaker 2: Well, we were going to deliver on that with some 666 00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:09,920 Speaker 2: tangents and trivia, some sort of nuggety little stories of 667 00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:14,080 Speaker 2: folks who fancied their cousins quite a bit. And I 668 00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:16,160 Speaker 2: think these ones we should lighten up the mood a 669 00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:19,240 Speaker 2: little bit, because, man, you know, dying in despair, wearing 670 00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:21,960 Speaker 2: all black and having your young eleven year old son 671 00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:24,200 Speaker 2: have to take care of you the rest of your 672 00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:27,400 Speaker 2: life ain't exactly the cheery ending that was promised. 673 00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:32,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, let's let's talk a little bit about something something 674 00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:37,759 Speaker 1: mechs you found here where you said, wow, private secretaries 675 00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:41,320 Speaker 1: to the president sure loved their cousins. It's a very 676 00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:45,680 Speaker 1: specific font of knowledge that we're we're about to explore. 677 00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,040 Speaker 1: I want to give a shout out to nominative determinism 678 00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:53,759 Speaker 1: and a guy named Samuel L. Gouveneir g o u 679 00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:56,480 Speaker 1: v e r n e u r. 680 00:42:57,160 --> 00:42:58,320 Speaker 2: That like a fancy governor. 681 00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:01,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a it's a it's a governor, but it's 682 00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:03,640 Speaker 1: six dollars more a counter, got it? 683 00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:04,040 Speaker 2: Got it? 684 00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:08,800 Speaker 1: Our buddy sam is the private secretary for a guy 685 00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:13,880 Speaker 1: who is his daddy uncle and fifth president in US history, 686 00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:14,960 Speaker 1: James Monroe. 687 00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:18,240 Speaker 3: Ben I absolutely love that you said daddy uncle because 688 00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:23,040 Speaker 3: this just gets so confusing because his actual uncle, not 689 00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:27,840 Speaker 3: by blood, but James Monroe, was married to Elizabeth Monroe, 690 00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:34,799 Speaker 3: who was Samuel L. Gouvernor's mom's sister, So his aunt 691 00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:39,560 Speaker 3: by blood uncle by marriage, but his dad or daddy 692 00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:44,240 Speaker 3: or dad in law, because Gouvernor married Maria Hester Monroe, 693 00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:48,520 Speaker 3: the daughter of Elizabeth and James Monroe. But this is 694 00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:50,799 Speaker 3: even weirder when we started hearing all the names and 695 00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:53,080 Speaker 3: also how utterly confusing all this crap. 696 00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:59,680 Speaker 2: Is Samuel L. Gouverneur, his mother was named Hester Gouverneer. 697 00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:03,640 Speaker 2: His wife once they actually did get married, was Maria 698 00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:08,120 Speaker 2: Hester Gouveneer. It's confusing, extra confusing, as you mentioned, Max, 699 00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:10,440 Speaker 2: and researching a lot of us stuff, it gets a 700 00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:15,560 Speaker 2: little Quagmiriy. So Maria Hester Gouvenier is not to be 701 00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:19,600 Speaker 2: confused with his second wife, Mary Digs Gouvenier. 702 00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:27,120 Speaker 1: Totally different, totally different, right, And Sam's sister's maiden name 703 00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:32,000 Speaker 1: was Maria Charlotte Gouveneer. Two of his children were named 704 00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:39,279 Speaker 1: Samuel Lawrence Gouverneir Junior and James Monroe Gouveneir also shout out. 705 00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:41,880 Speaker 1: Shout out to Max and the research brief who called 706 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:47,400 Speaker 1: Samuel L. Gouveneer America's number two most famous Samuel L. 707 00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:51,400 Speaker 2: Moving on to John Adams the Second, not to be 708 00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:55,680 Speaker 2: confused with our boy, John Quincy Adams, who Max you 709 00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:57,400 Speaker 2: referred to as the original sequel. 710 00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:01,880 Speaker 3: Explain, because there's John, there's John Quincy Adams, which is 711 00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:05,719 Speaker 3: his son, and there's John Adams the second. So John 712 00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:08,160 Speaker 3: Adams the Second is really kind of John Adams the third, 713 00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:11,680 Speaker 3: but he's not. Also, to get your heads up, is 714 00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:14,240 Speaker 3: really hard to find information about John Adams the Second, 715 00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:16,160 Speaker 3: because you type it into a search engine, it just 716 00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:19,480 Speaker 3: comes up with John Adams, second President of American history. 717 00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:27,000 Speaker 2: Max's with the facts of phone get backs. 718 00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:30,040 Speaker 4: He drops the knowledge just for you. 719 00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:32,960 Speaker 3: So good, there we got fat. 720 00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:38,160 Speaker 2: Indeed, John Adams was in fact the second president in 721 00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:45,480 Speaker 2: American history and was the successor to James L. Governaire, 722 00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:50,960 Speaker 2: holding the position of private secretary to John Quincy Adams. 723 00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:53,560 Speaker 2: John Adams the Second was the second son of John 724 00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:59,120 Speaker 2: Quincy Adams and Louisa Catherine Nae Helen Adams, with an 725 00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:02,680 Speaker 2: older brother named George Washington Adams, Get out of here, 726 00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:06,080 Speaker 2: and a younger brother named Charles Francis Adams. This is 727 00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:09,239 Speaker 2: like a Gabriel Garcia Marquezno, it's it's absurd. Later they 728 00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:12,279 Speaker 2: popped a scenior onto there, just to make things less 729 00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:14,960 Speaker 2: confusing more confusing. You mean, I don't know. 730 00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:17,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know at this point, but all the 731 00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:20,960 Speaker 1: way the cadences as you're talking about, that makes me 732 00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:23,960 Speaker 1: think this is a situation where you could make a 733 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:27,640 Speaker 1: really confusing school children's song that's supposed to help you 734 00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:31,520 Speaker 1: to remember but just becomes increasingly convoluted. 735 00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:33,879 Speaker 2: Let's put they might be giants right on it. Yeah, 736 00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:35,360 Speaker 2: there we go. We forget. 737 00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:41,120 Speaker 1: We forgot to say, why is private secretary important? Secretary 738 00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:44,400 Speaker 1: back then does not mean the same thing as secretary 739 00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:49,040 Speaker 1: often means now. The private secretary in this day and 740 00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:52,920 Speaker 1: age was a position that was kind of expected to 741 00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:57,279 Speaker 1: be based on nepotism. Your private secretary was usually a 742 00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:01,759 Speaker 1: direct close family member filling in and as you know, 743 00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:04,840 Speaker 1: as Max points out, it's also a position that seemed 744 00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:08,040 Speaker 1: to have a lot of first cousin marriers and as 745 00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:12,839 Speaker 1: a patented Williams Street so Okay, no, he did a 746 00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:18,480 Speaker 1: beautiful job outlining the relationship here. John Adams two becomes 747 00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:22,879 Speaker 1: this private secretary for the entirety of his father's presidential 748 00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:26,799 Speaker 1: career starting eighteen twenty five ending in eighteen twenty nine, 749 00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:30,400 Speaker 1: and then somewhere along the way eighteen twenty eight, he 750 00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:34,880 Speaker 1: marries his wife, Mary Catherine Helen at the White House 751 00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:38,640 Speaker 1: super fancy. Johnny and Mary had known each other for 752 00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:45,120 Speaker 1: a while because when Mary Catherine Helen's parents died, Mary 753 00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:47,719 Speaker 1: Catherine Helen was a child and she moved in with 754 00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:54,759 Speaker 1: her mother's sister, whose name was Louisa Catherine Helen Adams. 755 00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:59,360 Speaker 1: To make everything a lot worse, immediately, all three Adams 756 00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:04,640 Speaker 1: brothers started an intense competition to win Mary's hand, and 757 00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:10,160 Speaker 1: they aggressively courted their cousin first custom first cousin. And 758 00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:13,520 Speaker 1: this is These are just a few examples. This goes on, 759 00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:16,839 Speaker 1: but as as we said, everybody you know, it can 760 00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:19,840 Speaker 1: be confusing to keep track of all the individuals, especially 761 00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:23,080 Speaker 1: as the names get similar, and it could be difficult 762 00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:28,400 Speaker 1: today for people often to trace their own familial relationships. 763 00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:31,760 Speaker 1: That's why there is there was at least a dating 764 00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:34,600 Speaker 1: app in Iceland. You guys heard about this that would 765 00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:36,960 Speaker 1: tell you whether or not you were related to someone 766 00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:38,120 Speaker 1: you were trying to date. 767 00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:43,360 Speaker 3: Do you guys know the Snel I say, Irish dating show. 768 00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:47,279 Speaker 3: I think it's Bill Hayter is like the Bachelor, and 769 00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:52,560 Speaker 3: it's eighty Bryant, Kate mckannon and Cecily Strong are like 770 00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:54,719 Speaker 3: the three like bachelors, and it turns out that two 771 00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:55,879 Speaker 3: of them are related to him. 772 00:48:56,520 --> 00:48:57,800 Speaker 4: That actually is a benefit. 773 00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:00,440 Speaker 3: Like Adie Bryan's the one that's not related to so 774 00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:04,200 Speaker 3: she's just kind of eliminated off quietly, right, Yeah, that's. 775 00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:06,120 Speaker 4: Why that's where my brain's going with us right here. 776 00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:08,319 Speaker 1: And again, you know, as we said at the top, 777 00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:13,400 Speaker 1: we're not here to vilify people or to you know, 778 00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:16,600 Speaker 1: to make a mockery of them in this regard. But 779 00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:20,400 Speaker 1: it turns out there are a lot of prominent historical 780 00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:24,239 Speaker 1: figures that did in fact marry their first cousins, from 781 00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:30,600 Speaker 1: outlaws like Jesse James to groundbreaking scientists like Albert Einstein, 782 00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:33,520 Speaker 1: because at the end of the day, they're all human 783 00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:38,759 Speaker 1: and humans are inherently fallible. But Noel, speaking of fallibility, 784 00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:41,359 Speaker 1: I think we did okay on this one. We held 785 00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:44,200 Speaker 1: our own things I don't think we falibated. 786 00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:49,200 Speaker 2: No, wow, I'm salivating thinking of how little we falibated. Okay, 787 00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:52,920 Speaker 2: I think we've we've all collectively gone a little insane 788 00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:56,839 Speaker 2: from from naming and cousin math fatigue. But thanks for 789 00:49:56,840 --> 00:50:00,480 Speaker 2: bearing with us, y all ridiculous historians out there, and 790 00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:05,640 Speaker 2: thank you Max for this incredible and brain shattering research brief. 791 00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:06,560 Speaker 2: And thanks to you. 792 00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:11,200 Speaker 3: Ben behind the curtain, guys, behind the behind the gurkin. Yeah, 793 00:50:11,239 --> 00:50:12,880 Speaker 3: there's a lot of gurkhing in this episode. 794 00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:14,040 Speaker 4: It's this brief took. 795 00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:16,680 Speaker 3: An extra two weeks for me to get done because 796 00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:19,440 Speaker 3: once I started touching Adam's family, which the Adams family 797 00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:19,839 Speaker 3: is just. 798 00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:20,799 Speaker 4: Full of inbreeding. 799 00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:21,560 Speaker 2: They're creepy. 800 00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:24,239 Speaker 4: It's so creepy. Yeah, every time I opened it up 801 00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:26,080 Speaker 4: and I started researching, it broke my brain. I just 802 00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:26,560 Speaker 4: had to stop. 803 00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:30,440 Speaker 1: Well, thank you for your service, Max, and also thanks 804 00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:34,839 Speaker 1: to Jonathan Strickland aka the Quist. Thanks to Christoph rassiotis 805 00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:39,160 Speaker 1: East Jeffcoat here in spirit Nol. Of course, thanks to you. 806 00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:42,320 Speaker 1: Are you excited about this weird Pirate episode? 807 00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:46,759 Speaker 2: Oh gosh, ar maty boy boy boy am I EMM 808 00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:57,200 Speaker 2: see you nice time? Folks For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 809 00:50:57,320 --> 00:51:00,239 Speaker 2: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever did you 810 00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:01,640 Speaker 2: listen to your favorite shows