WEBVTT - Norma Kamali: “Be creative, be original, be innovative.” 0:00:02.880 --> 0:00:06.319 You're listening to Math and Magic, a production of iHeart Podcasts. 0:00:08.520 --> 0:00:10.600 Sometimes I'll wake up in the middle of the night, 0:00:10.800 --> 0:00:16.200 or I'll wake up in the morning, and these incredible 0:00:16.480 --> 0:00:21.080 ideas are right in the front of my brain and 0:00:21.520 --> 0:00:28.160 I'm excited by them. Hi. 0:00:28.200 --> 0:00:30.639 I'm Bob Pittman, and welcome to this episode of Math 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:34.000 and Magic. Stories from the Frontiers and Marketing. Today, we've 0:00:34.040 --> 0:00:38.080 got someone who has succeeded through generations of innovation, tapping 0:00:38.080 --> 0:00:41.720 into the moment and using technology and creativity to build 0:00:41.840 --> 0:00:45.479 and build and build her business and her brand. It's 0:00:45.520 --> 0:00:49.120 fashion icon Norma Kamali Normal was a New York kid 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:51.640 who went to school in New York and studied fashion 0:00:51.680 --> 0:00:56.040 illustration at fit Fashion Institute of Technology, but fell out 0:00:56.040 --> 0:00:59.280 of place with the fashion of that time. So after graduation, 0:00:59.440 --> 0:01:02.360 she took a as an airline clerk at Northwest Orian 0:01:02.400 --> 0:01:05.640 Airlines and use the perks of the job to go 0:01:05.680 --> 0:01:09.000 to London almost every weekend for four years. And that 0:01:09.120 --> 0:01:13.399 opened her mind to culture, art, fashion and different points 0:01:13.400 --> 0:01:16.400 of view, all the things that propel her to success 0:01:16.440 --> 0:01:19.320 in fashion. She was there at the great moments, including 0:01:19.319 --> 0:01:21.800 a front row seat at Studio fifty four and the 0:01:21.840 --> 0:01:25.280 transformative effect it had on culture, and how it elevated 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:28.520 designers to celebrity status. She's also had a hand in 0:01:28.600 --> 0:01:32.240 technology and art and has always been ready to adapt 0:01:32.360 --> 0:01:36.039 to the new. She's both creative and savvy in business. 0:01:36.240 --> 0:01:39.920 She's a longtime friend and a wonderful person. Normal. Welcome, Well, 0:01:40.040 --> 0:01:40.800 thank you, Bob. 0:01:40.959 --> 0:01:43.240 That one's very nice. I appreciate that. 0:01:43.640 --> 0:01:46.640 Well, we're going to dig into a lot of meat today, 0:01:46.959 --> 0:01:49.120 but first I want to do you in sixty seconds. 0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:49.880 Were you ready to go? 0:01:50.280 --> 0:01:50.880 I'm ready? 0:01:51.320 --> 0:01:55.760 Okay, here we go. Cats are dogs, dogs, early riser, 0:01:55.960 --> 0:02:02.120 night out, early coffee or tea, tea, streaming TV or podcast. 0:02:02.720 --> 0:02:04.360 Oh, I'm a big podcaster. 0:02:05.200 --> 0:02:10.560 Sneakers or heels to say both bright colors or neutrals. 0:02:11.480 --> 0:02:13.160 I do both on that one. 0:02:13.240 --> 0:02:20.000 Also, okay, powers or London London, Andy Warhol or Halston 0:02:20.720 --> 0:02:24.640 Andy Warhol, your sleeping bag, coat or your swimwear. 0:02:25.360 --> 0:02:30.680 I can't answer that it's too personal. I can't answer that. 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:33.560 I just love all the children. Yes, all time favorite 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:39.840 musical artist, Eda James. Smartest person you know, Gosh, I am. 0:02:39.800 --> 0:02:42.840 Very lucky to know a lot, I would say, Martin Edelman, 0:02:43.560 --> 0:02:44.240 I agree with you. 0:02:44.280 --> 0:02:46.520 There your go to exercise routine. 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:51.480 I've been doing physy fifty seven since two thousand and six. 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:55.240 Childhood hero Michaelangelo Believe it or. 0:02:55.200 --> 0:02:57.560 Not, technology you can't live without. 0:02:58.000 --> 0:03:04.040 Oh my god, AI favored decade now totally now. 0:03:04.200 --> 0:03:07.280 And the best advice you ever got Know. 0:03:07.400 --> 0:03:09.560 Thyself, my sixth grade teacher. 0:03:10.760 --> 0:03:14.320 Okay, let's jump down. What is so remarkable about you 0:03:14.440 --> 0:03:16.480 is that you started in the sixties and here you 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:20.080 are today, still going strong. There's a huge lesson in 0:03:20.160 --> 0:03:23.560 this for marketers and other business people. How have you 0:03:23.639 --> 0:03:26.440 managed to be relevant through all the changes in society 0:03:26.480 --> 0:03:29.760 and culture and how have you adjusted, adapted and connected. 0:03:30.480 --> 0:03:36.360 Understanding the importance of disruption is key. All of a sudden, 0:03:37.280 --> 0:03:40.440 you're off on a path that the rest of the 0:03:40.560 --> 0:03:44.720 planet is not even thinking about anymore. Of the are off. 0:03:44.560 --> 0:03:49.400 On something else, and so the idea of disruption that 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:54.680 you create yourself is critical. And there is no better 0:03:54.800 --> 0:04:00.000 time to explain the importance of that than right now. 0:04:00.880 --> 0:04:05.080 When you think about disruption, do you intend to disrupt 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:08.520 or do you just see something different and you move 0:04:08.640 --> 0:04:11.080 toward that and it turns out to be disruptive? 0:04:11.560 --> 0:04:15.520 For me as a designer, I'm more intuitive, So I 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:18.800 think that something is not right, something's not right, and 0:04:18.920 --> 0:04:24.560 then ideas come to me, and I find the ideas 0:04:24.680 --> 0:04:29.800 start to make changes in things that are going on 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:36.120 between my last collection and now everyone in this company 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:41.360 wants to kill me, basically because I've disrupted each and 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:45.200 everyone their lives and what they do because I felt 0:04:45.320 --> 0:04:49.719 we were on the verge of getting too comfortable. We 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:52.719 need to really make a big shift, and I was 0:04:52.760 --> 0:04:55.960 doing it personally, but I wasn't taking the company with me. 0:04:56.960 --> 0:05:01.440 And so hopefully they don't hate me too much longer 0:05:01.560 --> 0:05:05.560 and settle in and feel good about where the level 0:05:05.600 --> 0:05:07.279 we're at now and where we're going. 0:05:08.279 --> 0:05:10.640 You know, let's talk about creativity for a second. You 0:05:10.800 --> 0:05:13.680 said you're intuitive and the ideas come to you. Where 0:05:13.680 --> 0:05:14.920 are those ideas come from? 0:05:16.279 --> 0:05:18.320 Sometimes I'll wake up in the middle of the night, 0:05:18.560 --> 0:05:23.960 or I'll wake up in the morning and these incredible 0:05:24.200 --> 0:05:28.839 ideas are right in the front of my brain and 0:05:29.279 --> 0:05:34.560 I'm excited by them, and I don't know where they 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:38.800 come from. It's not something I heard before, it's not 0:05:39.040 --> 0:05:45.240 something I saw anywhere. And I just really feel like 0:05:45.600 --> 0:05:50.479 there's something communicating with me in some way. I really 0:05:50.800 --> 0:05:53.880 have that experience, and I've had it for as long 0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:57.279 as I can remember, and I almost felt guilty that 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:00.800 I don't know if this is me or something else 0:06:01.680 --> 0:06:05.479 giving it to me, and I'm sending it out there. 0:06:05.520 --> 0:06:09.000 But now more and more I hear other people have 0:06:09.040 --> 0:06:13.680 had the same experience, so there must be something about that. 0:06:13.960 --> 0:06:16.279 I don't want to question it. It's working for me, 0:06:16.520 --> 0:06:17.919 so I'm going with the flow. 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:20.120 You know, it's funny you talk about that, because I 0:06:20.160 --> 0:06:22.159 spend a lot of time thinking about it. I like, 0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:23.880 you wake up at about four or five in the 0:06:23.880 --> 0:06:26.200 morning with an idea and I can't go back to 0:06:26.200 --> 0:06:28.440 sleep until I write it down on its crystal clear, 0:06:28.600 --> 0:06:32.760 or I'm in a nice hot meditative shower and suddenly 0:06:32.960 --> 0:06:36.920 that speech I couldn't think about, or the line or 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:40.080 the whatever, it just comes into my brain. And some 0:06:40.120 --> 0:06:42.920 people have read some on it and say, what we're 0:06:42.960 --> 0:06:45.760 doing is that when we get to the meditative state, 0:06:45.839 --> 0:06:49.680 when we get to the level that we've now connected 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:53.840 and ideas can flow. Some say from our subconscious, which 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:56.760 is always working on stuff into our conscious. Others a 0:06:56.839 --> 0:06:59.880 little more spiritual will say it's coming from the universe, 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:04.240 consciousness or whatever. But if you'll let it. Every answer 0:07:04.279 --> 0:07:05.960 will come to you, but you got to get down 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:09.440 to sort of whatever's that meditative state for you. And 0:07:09.560 --> 0:07:11.320 interesting that that does it for you too. 0:07:11.880 --> 0:07:15.080 I agree with that. I think that we need restoration. 0:07:15.880 --> 0:07:19.960 But the spirit never sleeps. The spirit is always active, 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:21.000 the spirit is. 0:07:21.000 --> 0:07:22.680 Always in motion. 0:07:23.480 --> 0:07:28.800 And what happens is it is possible that that spirit 0:07:29.720 --> 0:07:34.720 is then bringing back something to us when we wait. 0:07:35.200 --> 0:07:39.280 It's interesting. David Eagleman, the neuroscientist from Stanford. He says 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:43.120 consciousness is like the broom closet in the mansion of 0:07:43.160 --> 0:07:46.960 our mind, that most of us is not the conscious us, 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:50.760 but it's the subconscious us. Let's go back a little 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:53.800 bit in time more sort of your business origin story. 0:07:54.320 --> 0:07:57.120 You spent all that time in London at a time 0:07:57.160 --> 0:07:59.640 when it was happening there in New York was clearly 0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:03.520 behind the times mid sixties. What did that exposure in 0:08:03.640 --> 0:08:06.160 London do to you? What did it open up in you? 0:08:07.120 --> 0:08:11.360 This was a big revolution as it is now right, 0:08:11.400 --> 0:08:16.840 and the revolution then was really the change from where 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:21.640 we were and then going into this baby boomer culture 0:08:21.760 --> 0:08:27.280 that just wore down everything. I remember going to London 0:08:27.480 --> 0:08:31.680 for the first time and not really knowing what was 0:08:31.840 --> 0:08:34.040 going on there or what was about to go on, 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:38.000 and I just wanted to start traveling. And I stayed 0:08:38.080 --> 0:08:42.679 at this little boarding house in Sloan Square, and I 0:08:42.720 --> 0:08:48.520 remember walking down the King's Road and everything was gray, gray, 0:08:48.600 --> 0:08:55.120 tweet gray sky, gray buildings, gray was raining, and I 0:08:55.800 --> 0:09:00.679 all of a sudden saw this one store and the 0:09:00.760 --> 0:09:08.480 whole front had a big colorful billboardy type cover on 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:13.520 the top of the entrance, and this music was blaring 0:09:13.720 --> 0:09:16.480 out of the store, and I thought, what is that. 0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:19.760 I was like a mok to a flame. I felt 0:09:19.760 --> 0:09:23.800 the hair on my arms rising, and I was just 0:09:24.320 --> 0:09:29.920 drawn to this sound and to the color, and at 0:09:29.960 --> 0:09:37.000 that moment I knew something was happening, something really different 0:09:37.200 --> 0:09:40.120 was happening, and none of that was in New York 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:43.199 or in the US yet. And I was there every 0:09:43.240 --> 0:09:49.000 weekend for four years, and through every weekend, I fortunately 0:09:49.480 --> 0:09:53.520 was in all the places where all of this was happening. 0:09:54.000 --> 0:10:00.400 And the musicians. My best friend in London's husband worked 0:10:00.400 --> 0:10:05.400 for Peter Grant, who was led Zeppelin's manager, notorious manager, 0:10:05.559 --> 0:10:08.920 and so I was staying at her house and they were. 0:10:08.800 --> 0:10:10.920 Always at her house, and there was all of. 0:10:10.840 --> 0:10:16.200 These things happening around me, and I was swept up, 0:10:16.640 --> 0:10:20.120 totally swept up. I mean, can you imagine having a 0:10:20.120 --> 0:10:23.959 conversation with Jimmy Hendrix. There, I am having a conversation 0:10:24.040 --> 0:10:26.640 with Jimmy Hendrix. I would come back to work and 0:10:26.720 --> 0:10:32.319 sit at the at my UNIVAC computer desk at the Airlines, 0:10:32.480 --> 0:10:36.080 and I couldn't even say who Jimmy Hendrix was because 0:10:36.120 --> 0:10:40.200 nobody would know because it was that early. And then 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:44.000 when it started to come to the US, I saw 0:10:44.120 --> 0:10:48.760 how this thing just exploded. And I was not sort 0:10:48.800 --> 0:10:52.600 of a fashion of the matching hat. 0:10:52.520 --> 0:10:56.559 Gloves mad men. Look, I was never into that. 0:10:57.160 --> 0:11:00.960 And then I saw, oh, this is me, this is freedom, 0:11:01.200 --> 0:11:07.319 this is anything. Be creative, be original, be innovative. And 0:11:07.480 --> 0:11:12.920 so that message was imprinted and never left me. 0:11:13.720 --> 0:11:16.319 I'm getting in the elution here. But you opened the 0:11:16.360 --> 0:11:20.800 successful store Manhattan originally bringing clothes from London. Why did 0:11:20.800 --> 0:11:23.240 you then start doing your own clothes? What was that 0:11:23.400 --> 0:11:26.000 jump from I'm going to sell these clothes up seeing 0:11:26.040 --> 0:11:28.600 in London to my own stuff. 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:33.320 Well, I had some ideas that I wasn't seeing anywhere, 0:11:33.559 --> 0:11:38.400 and it's very interesting. I was fearless and I just 0:11:38.559 --> 0:11:43.400 did whatever I was making eighty dollars a week, Bob, 0:11:44.080 --> 0:11:46.680 when I came up with this idea of getting a store. 0:11:46.760 --> 0:11:49.000 I found a store for two hundred and eighty five 0:11:49.040 --> 0:11:52.600 dollars a month, believe it or not, and it was 0:11:52.640 --> 0:11:56.440 in a basement, and that's where I started selling clothes. 0:11:56.480 --> 0:11:59.679 And then I thought, you know, I'm going to try 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:03.960 and do some things. And what was fascinating was in 0:12:04.080 --> 0:12:09.120 six MONTHSS I had a full page in Harper's Bazaarre 0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:14.920 of a skirt I made, and I was like, what 0:12:13.679 --> 0:12:19.240 is what is happening? So it gave me inspiration to 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:23.760 go on. But it was total ignorance. It was lack 0:12:23.880 --> 0:12:29.760 of knowledge or understanding of the downside risk. I just 0:12:30.000 --> 0:12:33.880 had this sense of confidence that I just don't understand 0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:35.000 where it came from. 0:12:35.040 --> 0:12:39.160 But I added, you went through a divorce and basically 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:44.200 started over under the on my own Omo Normakomali brand. 0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:47.000 How did you make that jump? I mean that's got 0:12:47.040 --> 0:12:49.520 to be pretty scary. You get some success, leave it 0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:50.880 behind and start over again. 0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:54.959 First of all, when you get married at nineteen for 0:12:55.440 --> 0:13:00.319 all the wrong reasons. He was a terrific guy and 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:05.880 believed in me completely and thought that I was the 0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:07.800 most talented thing ever. 0:13:08.000 --> 0:13:08.840 It was a dream. 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:14.080 And then you know, in that ten years between nineteen 0:13:14.880 --> 0:13:19.520 and thirty, you really are developing as a human being. 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:23.680 And when we met, I could go out dancing every 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:26.080 night and just be the happiest person in the world. 0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:30.040 And we loved to dance together. We would win money 0:13:30.040 --> 0:13:34.120 at dance contests and it was like great. But then 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:40.680 when we started the business, finally our lives changed so much. 0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:44.120 I was working all the time and I was so 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:49.480 happy to have found what my love and passion would be. 0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:54.280 And he wanted a different kind of life, a more 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:59.880 carefree life. He wasn't as interested in the business as 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:04.800 I was, and especially at the time, I think felt 0:14:05.559 --> 0:14:12.679 intimidated that I was so into this business and he 0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:19.840 was uncomfortable with the idea of it. So eventually, you know, 0:14:20.000 --> 0:14:24.320 people behave in a crazy way, and it got to 0:14:24.360 --> 0:14:27.080 the point where I think I need to leave this. 0:14:27.440 --> 0:14:33.080 And he also controlled the money, and I had ninety 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:36.920 eight dollars and it was a tough decision to leave 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:43.560 because I had no power to be self sufficient, but 0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:47.120 I just did it because I thought I was just 0:14:47.160 --> 0:14:50.240 going to lose my soul if I stayed there. And 0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:54.200 being there was everything to me. So it was a 0:14:54.200 --> 0:14:58.120 big shocker, and I had no idea, I had no plan, 0:14:58.880 --> 0:15:03.000 but I knew that it was just not a good 0:15:03.160 --> 0:15:07.200 place for me to be, and so I left. And 0:15:07.240 --> 0:15:11.320 then I finally told people that I needed help and 0:15:11.920 --> 0:15:14.720 that I needed to find way to borrow money or 0:15:14.800 --> 0:15:18.680 do something. And it was a big ask because like 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:21.800 I said, I had ninety eight dollars, but I could 0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:26.600 not believe the amount of people that really were so 0:15:26.880 --> 0:15:32.840 incredibly generous and helped me in my first business learning 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:37.640 was paying everybody back and being religious about it, and 0:15:37.760 --> 0:15:42.160 I realized the importance of really knowing about money and 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:45.600 being in control of how all of that works in 0:15:45.640 --> 0:15:46.240 a business. 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:50.440 Obviously, it worked out for you. You opened your famous retail 0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:53.400 boutique Alo was fifty sixth Street. But I want to 0:15:53.480 --> 0:15:57.720 jump to one other cultural moment which you played a 0:15:57.760 --> 0:16:00.640 big role in, which was Studio fifty four. I was 0:16:00.640 --> 0:16:03.120 a young guy, came to New York in nineteen seventy seven, 0:16:03.200 --> 0:16:05.760 just about the time Studio fifty four open, and I 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:08.480 was there a lot, and honestly, it was probably a 0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:11.400 turning point for me. I'd come from Chicago, grew up 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:15.360 in Mississippi. I'd never seen anything like it. How would 0:16:15.360 --> 0:16:18.000 you describe what Studio fifty four did the culture. 0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:25.280 The interesting thing is I never really went to Studio 0:16:25.400 --> 0:16:30.120 fifty four when it was open. At that point I 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:36.320 started dating Ian Schrieger, and I knew all about Studio 0:16:36.440 --> 0:16:42.560 fifty four. I would go and see all the decorations. 0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:45.600 For the parties and I would I knew everything. 0:16:45.200 --> 0:16:48.640 That was going on, and I was making clothes for 0:16:48.720 --> 0:16:51.680 everybody that went to Studio fifty four. It was a 0:16:51.760 --> 0:16:56.520 very prosperous time. And the way I met Ian was 0:16:56.760 --> 0:17:02.800 he wanted me to design Grace Jones' outfit for New 0:17:02.920 --> 0:17:06.919 Year's Eve and her backup guys, and that was my 0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:09.800 contribution to Studio fifty four. 0:17:10.400 --> 0:17:14.840 Well, you clearly had an impact. I think even the 0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:18.000 dorman were wearing your sleeping bag coat some cold nights. Yes, 0:17:18.119 --> 0:17:21.560 it was something different. I think all of us in 0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:25.600 New York certainly felt that we were witnessing a change. 0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:28.439 How did it affect fashion for you at that moment? 0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:32.679 You're so right that Studio fifty four had an impact. 0:17:32.880 --> 0:17:36.520 It was a global impact, just the way London was 0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:39.720 the right place at the right time in the sixties. Well, 0:17:39.880 --> 0:17:45.320 New York in the seventies had an incredible energy about it. 0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:50.879 It brought so many people to be a part of 0:17:51.000 --> 0:17:55.679 this big change and the amount of talents and the 0:17:56.000 --> 0:18:00.760 energy was extraordinary, and that was probably leave one of 0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:03.520 the highlights of New York fashion. 0:18:04.280 --> 0:18:07.040 And then when we started MTV in the early eighties 0:18:07.160 --> 0:18:10.280 nineteen eighty one, you were actually the first fashion designer. 0:18:10.680 --> 0:18:13.320 You actually and Perry Ellis were the two that sort 0:18:13.320 --> 0:18:16.400 of showed up for MTV, like you sort of got 0:18:16.440 --> 0:18:19.760 it that there's something else going on. By the way, 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:22.639 it was not only MTV, but it was cable networks. 0:18:22.680 --> 0:18:25.800 We were going from three TV networks to thirty TV 0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:29.280 networks and sort of mind blowing to those of us 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:32.480 who had come from a very restricted TV background. How 0:18:32.520 --> 0:18:36.080 did you think about that change going on, that sort 0:18:36.080 --> 0:18:38.280 of post Studio fifty four change. 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:42.879 I'll never forget going to the first MTV Awards with 0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:48.280 you and seeing Madonna, and that was such a great 0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:54.280 point in music history that this was this award show 0:18:54.400 --> 0:18:59.720 for a new concept in how you could see me 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:04.760 music and hear it, and it was bold and amazing 0:19:05.520 --> 0:19:10.800 and everybody was just blown away and it captured the culture. 0:19:10.960 --> 0:19:15.800 It captured everything that was going on and including fashion. 0:19:16.480 --> 0:19:20.320 I just fell in love with it. I was so 0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:27.760 overwhelmed with excitement. And I remember I had this incredible 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:31.080 budget with one of the companies I was doing my 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:34.479 sweats collection with, and I had a lot of money 0:19:34.560 --> 0:19:39.160 to do whatever I wanted, and so I was sure 0:19:39.640 --> 0:19:42.960 that there would be a fashion TV that would be 0:19:43.240 --> 0:19:50.040 like MTV, where you could see fashion with music and culture. 0:19:50.640 --> 0:19:54.000 And so I did these films and I even won 0:19:54.080 --> 0:19:57.200 an award for two of the films, but nobody could 0:19:57.240 --> 0:20:02.800 see them anywhere because nobody Buddy had the goal and 0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:06.520 the balls that you had to just land this out 0:20:06.600 --> 0:20:09.719 and not get out of the park to do that. 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:11.440 For fashion, what. 0:20:11.400 --> 0:20:14.760 Was interesting is the ancillary impact we had. And one 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:16.439 of the things we realized, there are two things we 0:20:16.560 --> 0:20:20.920 realized is that unless you were super super famous, no 0:20:20.960 --> 0:20:24.520 one knew what the musical artists looked like, because how 0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:27.280 would you know the no internet. This stuff was not 0:20:27.440 --> 0:20:31.560 usually literal pictures on albums, and so for the first time, 0:20:31.600 --> 0:20:35.479 we sort of made people who did music celebrities. And 0:20:35.560 --> 0:20:38.560 I remember the first five or six months of MTV, 0:20:39.000 --> 0:20:41.720 we would have artists constantly coming up and saying, my god. 0:20:41.760 --> 0:20:43.880 People stopped me on the street and said, I saw 0:20:43.920 --> 0:20:47.240 you on MTV. The other thing that we had was 0:20:47.280 --> 0:20:50.280 the impact on fashion is hadn't thought about it, but 0:20:50.320 --> 0:20:54.560 we realized that TV networks that really controlled access to 0:20:54.640 --> 0:20:58.240 what Americans knew about culture. And when we kicked with MTV, 0:20:58.320 --> 0:21:01.879 we started showing these fashions that people in Middle America 0:21:01.960 --> 0:21:04.640 had never seen. They didn't know what was going on 0:21:04.720 --> 0:21:08.399 in New York or CBGB's or London or anywhere else. 0:21:08.840 --> 0:21:13.640 It's so true, and it was very organic because on 0:21:13.680 --> 0:21:19.040 some of the very early performances and videos on MTV, 0:21:19.880 --> 0:21:24.080 I saw almost my full collection worn on a screen 0:21:24.320 --> 0:21:27.960 and thought, oh my god. And I had no idea. 0:21:28.119 --> 0:21:31.000 They were just buying these things and wearing them. 0:21:31.160 --> 0:21:33.320 And that also. 0:21:33.240 --> 0:21:37.320 Had a big impact on my business. Music to people 0:21:37.359 --> 0:21:39.480 had always been my customers, but. 0:21:39.680 --> 0:21:45.120 Now it was really this was definitely a real connection. 0:21:45.359 --> 0:21:49.760 I had more Math and Magic right after this quick break, 0:21:55.960 --> 0:21:58.880 Welcome back to Math and Magic. Let's hear more from 0:21:58.880 --> 0:22:04.080 my conversation Dorma Kamali before we jump to the future 0:22:04.560 --> 0:22:08.000 to today. Well, I'm going to go eaven a little farther. 0:22:09.040 --> 0:22:12.359 What lessons did you learn from your childhood that have 0:22:12.400 --> 0:22:14.840 helped you in life and your career. What was formative 0:22:14.840 --> 0:22:15.400 there for you? 0:22:16.400 --> 0:22:18.560 I think being. 0:22:19.880 --> 0:22:28.920 First generation, having a mother who was an immigrant finding 0:22:28.960 --> 0:22:34.760 her way, being an incredible image for me to follow, 0:22:35.920 --> 0:22:42.560 her work ethic, her belief in anything is possible and 0:22:42.600 --> 0:22:46.159 that it can happen in this country. All of that 0:22:47.280 --> 0:22:53.000 I am really really grateful for. I've never ever believed 0:22:53.080 --> 0:22:57.080 in my heart that something wasn't possible. I believed and 0:22:57.160 --> 0:23:01.840 I still do, that everything is possible. And she taught 0:23:01.840 --> 0:23:06.840 me that as an immigrant. So that's really deep and 0:23:06.880 --> 0:23:10.240 I'm incredibly grateful for that childhood experience. 0:23:11.080 --> 0:23:13.359 You have the mind of an artist and certainly the 0:23:13.400 --> 0:23:16.359 instincts of a business person. Have a huge name, an 0:23:16.520 --> 0:23:18.840 iconic brand, some of the great products in the history 0:23:18.840 --> 0:23:23.880 of fashion. But you never sold your business everybody else did. 0:23:23.920 --> 0:23:24.240 Why not? 0:23:25.119 --> 0:23:29.560 At the core, I'm a creative person. I never wanted 0:23:29.640 --> 0:23:33.159 to be the most famous or the richest designer in 0:23:33.200 --> 0:23:37.040 the world. I just wanted to be creative every day. 0:23:37.880 --> 0:23:44.520 And so the idea that I would have people telling me, no, 0:23:45.320 --> 0:23:48.920 we don't want you to do that AI project that 0:23:48.960 --> 0:23:52.200 doesn't fit in with the business plan, I would be crazy. 0:23:52.280 --> 0:23:57.280 Right now if somebody told me that. So that's basically it. 0:23:57.440 --> 0:24:01.040 My purpose has always been to live a life and 0:24:02.119 --> 0:24:06.320 protect that. I guess I decided I'll figure out a 0:24:06.320 --> 0:24:09.640 way to make it work. And I don't really look 0:24:09.680 --> 0:24:11.879 at money as the most important thing. 0:24:13.160 --> 0:24:16.400 So you come up with these ideas, but you run 0:24:16.400 --> 0:24:19.720 a business. How do you harness them in the business 0:24:19.760 --> 0:24:20.520 ideas too? 0:24:21.240 --> 0:24:27.080 In time, what's happened is I've learned to treat my 0:24:27.359 --> 0:24:32.760 business creatively the way I treat the designing part of it, 0:24:32.800 --> 0:24:38.480 the way I look at design. And so I take 0:24:38.800 --> 0:24:42.040 the challenge of this four times a year, as we 0:24:42.160 --> 0:24:47.639 designed four collections a year, incorporate it into the challenge 0:24:47.680 --> 0:24:52.080 of running a business, but also making it fun and 0:24:52.560 --> 0:24:55.720 having other things that we do. 0:24:55.880 --> 0:24:59.000 Like a podcast and like many other things. 0:24:59.240 --> 0:25:04.280 And I I think by incorporating the creative into every 0:25:04.359 --> 0:25:08.680 aspect of what I do, I think about the business 0:25:08.680 --> 0:25:11.359 and I also thrive as a creative person. 0:25:12.000 --> 0:25:14.520 You've talked about you do your business to give you 0:25:14.840 --> 0:25:18.080 complete creative control. I actually was a creative guy, and 0:25:18.119 --> 0:25:22.520 I went to the business side because I simplistically thought, ooh, 0:25:22.680 --> 0:25:24.760 if I run the business, I don't have to convince 0:25:24.800 --> 0:25:26.359 anyone it's a good idea and can do whatever I 0:25:26.359 --> 0:25:28.720 want to do. What I failed to realize was once 0:25:28.720 --> 0:25:30.440 I'm the business person, I don't have time to be 0:25:30.520 --> 0:25:33.639 the creative person anymore. Somehow you figured out how to 0:25:33.680 --> 0:25:36.320 do both. How do you manage that combination. 0:25:37.160 --> 0:25:43.640 One thing that I find incredibly helpful is asking advice 0:25:44.320 --> 0:25:48.800 and listening to the advice. And there are times where 0:25:48.840 --> 0:25:52.120 I think, I don't know if that's the best advice 0:25:52.200 --> 0:25:56.919 I've been given, But just really listening and then going 0:25:56.960 --> 0:25:59.840 to sleep and letting the little spirit dance all over 0:25:59.840 --> 0:26:01.840 the place and then telling me what to do in 0:26:01.880 --> 0:26:05.280 the morning is kind of the method to how I 0:26:05.520 --> 0:26:10.040 kind of balance it. Like you said, when you're involved 0:26:10.080 --> 0:26:11.320 in one part of it. 0:26:11.440 --> 0:26:14.159 When I do the collection, I have. 0:26:14.119 --> 0:26:20.240 To trust that everyone will follow the plan and then 0:26:20.320 --> 0:26:24.199 I can fully immerse myself in the collection. And I 0:26:24.280 --> 0:26:27.400 need some time to do that and then I'll regroup 0:26:27.440 --> 0:26:30.480 with them after. So a lot of it is time 0:26:30.600 --> 0:26:35.439 management and a lot of it is just thinking of 0:26:35.520 --> 0:26:37.480 a better way when it doesn't work. 0:26:38.200 --> 0:26:39.080 But it's tricky. 0:26:39.440 --> 0:26:42.919