1
00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:25,036
Speaker 1: Pushkin. It's February, that time of year when we all

2
00:00:25,076 --> 00:00:28,996
Speaker 1: feel like we're being bombarded with messages about love. Think

3
00:00:29,156 --> 00:00:32,996
Speaker 1: lots of red hearts, adds for diamond rings, laingerie chocolates,

4
00:00:33,116 --> 00:00:36,636
Speaker 1: and on and on. For those of us with romantic partners,

5
00:00:36,956 --> 00:00:40,196
Speaker 1: there's pressure to make the perfect reservation, by the perfect gift,

6
00:00:40,276 --> 00:00:43,156
Speaker 1: and plan that perfect date night. And if you're single,

7
00:00:43,316 --> 00:00:47,516
Speaker 1: the season often comes with feelings of loneliness and fomo. Honestly,

8
00:00:47,636 --> 00:00:50,276
Speaker 1: this time of year doesn't always feel great. It's like

9
00:00:50,316 --> 00:00:53,276
Speaker 1: a huge Hallmark card being collectively shoved in all of

10
00:00:53,316 --> 00:00:56,956
Speaker 1: our faces. This whole season is supposed to be about love,

11
00:00:57,356 --> 00:01:00,636
Speaker 1: but that can raise some pretty big questions like is

12
00:01:00,676 --> 00:01:03,476
Speaker 1: this what love is really about? And if not, how

13
00:01:03,516 --> 00:01:05,956
Speaker 1: many of us are actually experiencing the kind of deep

14
00:01:05,956 --> 00:01:09,596
Speaker 1: connection we need to feel happy or even just okay.

15
00:01:10,036 --> 00:01:12,316
Speaker 2: We ask people, you know, how often do they feel

16
00:01:12,356 --> 00:01:14,916
Speaker 2: loved and who do they feel loved most or leased by,

17
00:01:15,596 --> 00:01:19,516
Speaker 2: and we find that about seventy percent I believe don't

18
00:01:19,556 --> 00:01:21,396
Speaker 2: feel as loved as they want.

19
00:01:21,756 --> 00:01:25,036
Speaker 1: This is a psychologist Sonya Lubermerski, an expert on the

20
00:01:25,076 --> 00:01:26,036
Speaker 1: science of happiness.

21
00:01:26,436 --> 00:01:29,036
Speaker 3: They also said that there were romantic partners where the

22
00:01:29,116 --> 00:01:32,156
Speaker 3: people they most wanted to feel more loved from, so

23
00:01:32,196 --> 00:01:35,556
Speaker 3: they weren't getting as much as they wanted or even

24
00:01:35,716 --> 00:01:37,076
Speaker 3: in many cases needed.

25
00:01:37,556 --> 00:01:40,516
Speaker 1: And this is the psychologist Harry Ves, an expert on

26
00:01:40,556 --> 00:01:43,636
Speaker 1: the science of relationships. Sonya and Harry have come together

27
00:01:43,716 --> 00:01:46,076
Speaker 1: to co author a new book called How to Feel

28
00:01:46,116 --> 00:01:48,756
Speaker 1: Loved The Five Mindsets That give You More of What

29
00:01:48,836 --> 00:01:51,916
Speaker 1: matters most. The book explores why so many of us

30
00:01:51,996 --> 00:01:54,356
Speaker 1: don't feel as loved as we'd like, but it also

31
00:01:54,396 --> 00:01:56,116
Speaker 1: explores what we can do to change that.

32
00:01:56,396 --> 00:01:59,316
Speaker 3: I love talking about How to Feel Loved. The book

33
00:01:59,356 --> 00:02:02,916
Speaker 3: makes me feel loved and the experience of writing it

34
00:02:02,956 --> 00:02:07,276
Speaker 3: with Sonya was definitely a loving experience as well as

35
00:02:07,796 --> 00:02:09,036
Speaker 3: a literary experience.

36
00:02:09,796 --> 00:02:11,476
Speaker 1: You guys, do seem like you had like I don't

37
00:02:11,476 --> 00:02:13,556
Speaker 1: know if it's bromance is not the right word, but.

38
00:02:13,796 --> 00:02:15,836
Speaker 4: Something all right, we have great chemistry, right.

39
00:02:16,356 --> 00:02:19,036
Speaker 1: Stay tuned because in today's episode, the first of three

40
00:02:19,076 --> 00:02:21,516
Speaker 1: shows we're doing on the Science of Love, Sonya and

41
00:02:21,556 --> 00:02:24,876
Speaker 1: Harry will share some practical tips for strengthening our relationships

42
00:02:25,316 --> 00:02:27,996
Speaker 1: and not just romantic ones. We're also going to tackle

43
00:02:28,036 --> 00:02:30,396
Speaker 1: how to feel loved in the friendships, family ties, and

44
00:02:30,436 --> 00:02:34,116
Speaker 1: everyday connections we already have, plus the connections we're planning

45
00:02:34,116 --> 00:02:36,316
Speaker 1: to build in the future. We'll get into all of

46
00:02:36,396 --> 00:02:50,396
Speaker 1: Sonya and Harry's tips after some quick words from our sponsors.

47
00:02:53,756 --> 00:02:56,596
Speaker 1: So let's start with the big but obvious question, which

48
00:02:56,636 --> 00:02:59,036
Speaker 1: makes me think of a really bad ninety song. What

49
00:02:59,316 --> 00:02:59,916
Speaker 1: is love?

50
00:03:00,556 --> 00:03:03,036
Speaker 3: Well, there are many different definitions of love. Indeed, I

51
00:03:03,036 --> 00:03:05,156
Speaker 3: think it's one of the most ambiguous words in the

52
00:03:05,196 --> 00:03:08,596
Speaker 3: English language. You know, we can love chocolate ice cream,

53
00:03:08,876 --> 00:03:12,356
Speaker 3: can the New York mets, and we can love our parents,

54
00:03:12,356 --> 00:03:15,396
Speaker 3: and we can love our partners. So there are many

55
00:03:15,436 --> 00:03:19,356
Speaker 3: different definitions. The definition that we use in the book

56
00:03:19,876 --> 00:03:23,836
Speaker 3: is talking about the kind of deep, embodied experience that

57
00:03:23,916 --> 00:03:27,316
Speaker 3: you have when you have affection and caring and warmth

58
00:03:27,836 --> 00:03:31,036
Speaker 3: for other people in your lives that you are connected to,

59
00:03:31,276 --> 00:03:33,076
Speaker 3: that your life is intertwined with.

60
00:03:33,716 --> 00:03:35,156
Speaker 1: Well, when a lot of people think of love, they

61
00:03:35,196 --> 00:03:37,756
Speaker 1: think about the thing that you feel for someone else,

62
00:03:37,876 --> 00:03:40,036
Speaker 1: like I love my partner, I love chocolate ice cream.

63
00:03:40,436 --> 00:03:42,636
Speaker 1: But you really focused on the flip side of that,

64
00:03:42,916 --> 00:03:46,756
Speaker 1: the experience that you have of other people loving you. Sonya,

65
00:03:46,876 --> 00:03:48,636
Speaker 1: why that focus for the book.

66
00:03:48,836 --> 00:03:51,636
Speaker 2: As a happiness researcher, I think actually whether or not

67
00:03:51,676 --> 00:03:53,756
Speaker 2: you feel loved, and the extent to which you feel

68
00:03:53,756 --> 00:03:58,276
Speaker 2: loved by others maybe the most important factor in happiness.

69
00:03:58,316 --> 00:04:00,556
Speaker 2: And by the way, one reason is that we can

70
00:04:00,636 --> 00:04:02,356
Speaker 2: be loved, you know, we can have all these people

71
00:04:02,356 --> 00:04:05,556
Speaker 2: in our lives who objectively love us, but we don't

72
00:04:05,556 --> 00:04:08,316
Speaker 2: actually feel loved by them, or maybe not feel loved

73
00:04:08,316 --> 00:04:09,836
Speaker 2: by them as much as you want to be.

74
00:04:09,876 --> 00:04:12,796
Speaker 4: So that's a really important distinction, Harry.

75
00:04:12,836 --> 00:04:14,916
Speaker 1: I know this is something you thought about as a kid.

76
00:04:14,916 --> 00:04:17,516
Speaker 1: In your book, you admit how much you were tracking

77
00:04:17,676 --> 00:04:20,076
Speaker 1: how much you thought other people loved you. Could you

78
00:04:20,076 --> 00:04:23,156
Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about that middle school spreadsheeting.

79
00:04:23,956 --> 00:04:26,876
Speaker 3: I was certainly an insecure kid, particularly in middle school.

80
00:04:26,916 --> 00:04:30,476
Speaker 3: Is where I really remember that experience most vividly. I

81
00:04:30,556 --> 00:04:33,276
Speaker 3: went to summer camp and I was in a bunk

82
00:04:33,316 --> 00:04:37,236
Speaker 3: with about ten other boys my age, and I remember

83
00:04:37,956 --> 00:04:40,676
Speaker 3: waking up one night at the middle of the night

84
00:04:41,196 --> 00:04:44,436
Speaker 3: when there was obviously some kind of activity going on

85
00:04:44,556 --> 00:04:46,676
Speaker 3: where they were planning some kind of a raid on

86
00:04:46,716 --> 00:04:50,316
Speaker 3: another bunk, and they hadn't woken me up to take

87
00:04:50,396 --> 00:04:54,916
Speaker 3: part in that, and I felt just awful. And I

88
00:04:54,956 --> 00:04:58,676
Speaker 3: remember just naturally spending a lot of my time tracking

89
00:04:58,796 --> 00:05:02,196
Speaker 3: other people's behavior. You know, who was hanging out with whom,

90
00:05:02,236 --> 00:05:05,276
Speaker 3: who were friends with whom? And were they including me

91
00:05:05,516 --> 00:05:06,676
Speaker 3: or not including me?

92
00:05:06,876 --> 00:05:08,756
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I can feel that viscerally. I'm like

93
00:05:08,796 --> 00:05:11,116
Speaker 1: stuck with you on the bunk at like ten years old,

94
00:05:11,236 --> 00:05:14,956
Speaker 1: feeling that exactly. This is something that obviously you saw

95
00:05:14,996 --> 00:05:16,756
Speaker 1: as a kid, and I think we can all relate to.

96
00:05:16,956 --> 00:05:19,076
Speaker 1: But this is something that a lot of people are feeling,

97
00:05:19,156 --> 00:05:22,076
Speaker 1: not as middle schoolers but as adults. So this kind

98
00:05:22,076 --> 00:05:24,756
Speaker 1: of crisis of not feeling loved feel similar to another

99
00:05:24,796 --> 00:05:27,836
Speaker 1: crisis that Sonya is happiness researchers, we hear a lot

100
00:05:27,876 --> 00:05:30,996
Speaker 1: about this idea of the loneliness crisis. Is not feeling

101
00:05:31,076 --> 00:05:33,596
Speaker 1: loved the same as loneliness? Are there differences? What do

102
00:05:33,636 --> 00:05:34,036
Speaker 1: you think?

103
00:05:34,556 --> 00:05:34,756
Speaker 3: I mean?

104
00:05:34,796 --> 00:05:37,196
Speaker 2: You could argue that the root of loneliness is a

105
00:05:37,236 --> 00:05:41,156
Speaker 2: feeling of not feeling loved, not feeling loved, not feeling

106
00:05:41,156 --> 00:05:44,956
Speaker 2: like you belong, which really go together. And certainly you

107
00:05:44,996 --> 00:05:47,876
Speaker 2: can see that more and more people are acknowledging that

108
00:05:47,916 --> 00:05:49,756
Speaker 2: they are lonely or when you ask them, like how

109
00:05:49,756 --> 00:05:51,916
Speaker 2: many people do you have to talk to? You? You know,

110
00:05:51,956 --> 00:05:54,756
Speaker 2: in a crisis, there's fewer and fewer, less and less

111
00:05:54,756 --> 00:05:56,596
Speaker 2: with time. When you think about a lot of other

112
00:05:56,596 --> 00:06:02,196
Speaker 2: problems in our society, whether it's bullying or polarization or violence,

113
00:06:02,716 --> 00:06:05,396
Speaker 2: you could blame sort of not feeling loved or loneliness

114
00:06:05,436 --> 00:06:08,276
Speaker 2: for those problems as well. It's really even a bigger

115
00:06:08,276 --> 00:06:09,236
Speaker 2: problem than we think.

116
00:06:10,436 --> 00:06:12,556
Speaker 1: So, Harry, what are some of the consequences of not

117
00:06:12,596 --> 00:06:15,516
Speaker 1: feeling loved psychologically? What happens when we don't feel that.

118
00:06:15,796 --> 00:06:18,636
Speaker 3: When we don't feel loved. That feeling should not be

119
00:06:18,676 --> 00:06:23,516
Speaker 3: pooh pooed. It's not something that exists in isolation in US.

120
00:06:23,596 --> 00:06:28,116
Speaker 3: It goes along with many other kinds of consequences, certainly

121
00:06:28,316 --> 00:06:31,516
Speaker 3: a lack of emotional wellbeing and happiness, but it even

122
00:06:31,636 --> 00:06:34,396
Speaker 3: extends to the body and to our health. There are

123
00:06:34,396 --> 00:06:38,196
Speaker 3: scores of studies that show that the kind of feeling

124
00:06:38,196 --> 00:06:42,716
Speaker 3: that Sonya was describing are feelings that relate to just

125
00:06:42,756 --> 00:06:45,396
Speaker 3: about every health problem you can think of. For example,

126
00:06:45,676 --> 00:06:49,516
Speaker 3: heart disease is well known to relate to the feeling

127
00:06:49,556 --> 00:06:52,396
Speaker 3: of not being loved and feeling lonely. One of my

128
00:06:52,476 --> 00:06:55,316
Speaker 3: favorite studies is the study that was done in California

129
00:06:55,756 --> 00:06:59,676
Speaker 3: where they looked at cancer deaths and the absence of

130
00:07:00,156 --> 00:07:03,596
Speaker 3: meaningful connections, which certainly would be related to loneliness and

131
00:07:03,676 --> 00:07:08,236
Speaker 3: not feeling loved, predicted premature mortality from cancer and a

132
00:07:08,316 --> 00:07:11,396
Speaker 3: greater likelyhood that once you get cancer you would die

133
00:07:11,436 --> 00:07:11,796
Speaker 3: from it.

134
00:07:12,636 --> 00:07:13,916
Speaker 4: Basically a lack of connection.

135
00:07:14,036 --> 00:07:17,396
Speaker 2: That loneliness, the harm of that under the physical health

136
00:07:17,436 --> 00:07:21,636
Speaker 2: problems is equivalent to smoking fifteen cigarettes per day.

137
00:07:22,196 --> 00:07:24,516
Speaker 4: That number is just so compelling, Right.

138
00:07:24,636 --> 00:07:26,916
Speaker 3: I'll just throw in one more set of studies, which

139
00:07:26,916 --> 00:07:31,196
Speaker 3: I think are incredibly fascinating because these are experimental studies now.

140
00:07:31,396 --> 00:07:34,196
Speaker 3: So what they did in these studies is inject people

141
00:07:34,276 --> 00:07:38,676
Speaker 3: with a cold virus and then did some very sophisticated

142
00:07:38,716 --> 00:07:41,436
Speaker 3: work to see who got sick and who didn't get sick.

143
00:07:42,076 --> 00:07:46,276
Speaker 3: And guess what it was. The people who experienced themselves

144
00:07:46,276 --> 00:07:50,076
Speaker 3: as cut off from others and isolated were more likely

145
00:07:50,156 --> 00:07:53,956
Speaker 3: to get sick after having been exposed to the cold virus.

146
00:07:54,156 --> 00:07:56,236
Speaker 1: It's so amazing that we see these physical effects of

147
00:07:56,276 --> 00:07:59,196
Speaker 1: not feeling left to do we understand the mechanism, Harry.

148
00:07:59,996 --> 00:08:02,756
Speaker 3: That's a really important question, and it's one that a

149
00:08:02,796 --> 00:08:05,436
Speaker 3: lot of scientists are devoting their attention to. The First

150
00:08:05,436 --> 00:08:07,276
Speaker 3: thing I have to say is we don't really know.

151
00:08:08,196 --> 00:08:12,716
Speaker 3: The second thing I say is probably most of the

152
00:08:12,796 --> 00:08:18,196
Speaker 3: action comes from two places. One is simply happiness and

153
00:08:18,996 --> 00:08:24,196
Speaker 3: not being anxious, angry, depressed. Said, we know that positive

154
00:08:24,196 --> 00:08:28,396
Speaker 3: emotions trigger a whole series of biological responses that are

155
00:08:28,556 --> 00:08:31,956
Speaker 3: health promoting. We know that negative emotions trigger a lot

156
00:08:31,996 --> 00:08:36,356
Speaker 3: of biological processes that are harmful and deleterious, especially over

157
00:08:36,396 --> 00:08:39,996
Speaker 3: the long run. The second kind of way of thinking

158
00:08:39,996 --> 00:08:42,996
Speaker 3: about it, which is a little trickier, is the idea

159
00:08:43,036 --> 00:08:47,236
Speaker 3: that we probably have mechanisms within ourselves that are designed

160
00:08:47,236 --> 00:08:51,796
Speaker 3: by evolution to precisely carry out these connections. They're designed

161
00:08:51,876 --> 00:08:55,956
Speaker 3: to make us seek out others, to seek positive connections

162
00:08:55,996 --> 00:09:00,356
Speaker 3: with others, to respond well to them, to reciprocate to them.

163
00:09:00,916 --> 00:09:04,516
Speaker 3: And these mechanisms are within us, but we don't really

164
00:09:04,596 --> 00:09:07,236
Speaker 3: understand what they are and where they are. But there

165
00:09:07,236 --> 00:09:09,516
Speaker 3: are a lot of people trying to track that down,

166
00:09:09,596 --> 00:09:12,116
Speaker 3: and I suspect we'll know a lot more in the

167
00:09:12,156 --> 00:09:13,036
Speaker 3: next twenty years.

168
00:09:13,596 --> 00:09:16,716
Speaker 1: So the consefences of feeling not loved are huge, But

169
00:09:16,756 --> 00:09:18,876
Speaker 1: the problem is so many of us are feeling that way.

170
00:09:19,196 --> 00:09:20,636
Speaker 1: And one of the things I loved about your book

171
00:09:20,636 --> 00:09:23,156
Speaker 1: is that it walks through why we're feeling that way,

172
00:09:23,276 --> 00:09:25,516
Speaker 1: and all the ways that our mind gets not feeling

173
00:09:25,556 --> 00:09:28,156
Speaker 1: loved wrong. I think one of the ways we get

174
00:09:28,156 --> 00:09:30,076
Speaker 1: this wrong is we assume that if we're not feeling

175
00:09:30,156 --> 00:09:32,396
Speaker 1: loved and then we have to have some sort of

176
00:09:32,396 --> 00:09:35,476
Speaker 1: personal failure like I'm not attractive enough, or I'm not

177
00:09:35,516 --> 00:09:37,636
Speaker 1: interesting enough, or I'm not smart enough. If only I

178
00:09:37,676 --> 00:09:40,636
Speaker 1: could be more lovable than I would feel loved. Sonya,

179
00:09:40,676 --> 00:09:42,316
Speaker 1: why is this idea a bit wrong?

180
00:09:43,316 --> 00:09:44,516
Speaker 4: And I think you summarized it really well.

181
00:09:44,556 --> 00:09:46,756
Speaker 2: First of all, Yeah, the idea that if you don't

182
00:09:46,756 --> 00:09:48,836
Speaker 2: feel love, we think that the solution is to make

183
00:09:48,876 --> 00:09:52,476
Speaker 2: ourselves more lovable sort of more interesting, more attractive, more kind,

184
00:09:52,596 --> 00:09:55,756
Speaker 2: more funny, or somehow get the other person to love

185
00:09:55,836 --> 00:09:56,316
Speaker 2: us more.

186
00:09:56,476 --> 00:09:58,196
Speaker 4: And it sort of just turns out that doesn't work.

187
00:09:58,316 --> 00:10:00,276
Speaker 4: And actually, it doesn't mean that you need to sort

188
00:10:00,316 --> 00:10:01,316
Speaker 4: of change yourself.

189
00:10:01,676 --> 00:10:04,076
Speaker 2: It doesn't mean to change the other person to somehow

190
00:10:04,476 --> 00:10:06,836
Speaker 2: notice and love you more. When we arguing in the

191
00:10:06,836 --> 00:10:09,916
Speaker 2: book is what we need to do is change conversation,

192
00:10:10,316 --> 00:10:14,556
Speaker 2: which is a much more feasible, much less overwhelming, because

193
00:10:14,556 --> 00:10:16,676
Speaker 2: when you think about a relationship, a relationship is really

194
00:10:16,716 --> 00:10:19,876
Speaker 2: a series of conversations, and we could change the conversation

195
00:10:19,996 --> 00:10:22,476
Speaker 2: in a way that makes you feel more loved by

196
00:10:22,556 --> 00:10:24,556
Speaker 2: making the other person feel more loved.

197
00:10:25,556 --> 00:10:27,756
Speaker 1: To feel a little bit more loved, we need to

198
00:10:27,796 --> 00:10:31,116
Speaker 1: make other people feel loved. It almost feels like a

199
00:10:31,116 --> 00:10:33,796
Speaker 1: little bit of a paradox, or that we get it backwards.

200
00:10:34,196 --> 00:10:36,236
Speaker 1: What are some of the steps of making other people

201
00:10:36,276 --> 00:10:36,876
Speaker 1: feel loved?

202
00:10:37,676 --> 00:10:40,676
Speaker 3: Well, one of the things we argue is that it's

203
00:10:40,716 --> 00:10:45,196
Speaker 3: the way you approach the conversations that makes them result

204
00:10:45,356 --> 00:10:48,396
Speaker 3: in the kinds of experiences in which you will feel

205
00:10:48,596 --> 00:10:51,636
Speaker 3: loved and the other person will feel loved. So our

206
00:10:51,756 --> 00:10:55,356
Speaker 3: argument is that if you approach the conversation with the

207
00:10:55,436 --> 00:10:59,156
Speaker 3: mindset of helping the other person feel loved something that

208
00:10:59,276 --> 00:11:02,596
Speaker 3: is after all controllable about you, that will set off

209
00:11:02,636 --> 00:11:06,116
Speaker 3: a cycle of interaction that will allow you to feel

210
00:11:06,156 --> 00:11:10,436
Speaker 3: more loved. So the approach, in other words, is to

211
00:11:10,596 --> 00:11:14,116
Speaker 3: listen carefully, to communicate to the other person that you're

212
00:11:14,156 --> 00:11:17,236
Speaker 3: really interested in what they have to say. You know,

213
00:11:17,316 --> 00:11:21,236
Speaker 3: so many of us approach conversations as this is my

214
00:11:21,436 --> 00:11:24,076
Speaker 3: chance to show off what I think and feel, And

215
00:11:24,156 --> 00:11:27,316
Speaker 3: that's the exact wrong approach. The right approach is to

216
00:11:27,356 --> 00:11:30,276
Speaker 3: help the other person do that. So when they tell

217
00:11:30,276 --> 00:11:32,716
Speaker 3: you about something that happened to them. One of the

218
00:11:32,756 --> 00:11:35,996
Speaker 3: simplest phrases you can use is tell me more and

219
00:11:36,156 --> 00:11:39,876
Speaker 3: mean it. Of course, to do that with genuine curiosity,

220
00:11:40,276 --> 00:11:44,196
Speaker 3: because when other people experience that, a little light bulble

221
00:11:44,196 --> 00:11:47,436
Speaker 3: goes off inside their heads says, Wow, this person's really interested,

222
00:11:47,836 --> 00:11:50,596
Speaker 3: and then they become interested in you as well.

223
00:11:50,876 --> 00:11:53,676
Speaker 2: Again, intuition is to make ourselves more lovable, sort of

224
00:11:53,676 --> 00:11:55,916
Speaker 2: to show off or positive qualities. Right, so we want

225
00:11:55,916 --> 00:11:58,516
Speaker 2: to speak and sort of show how kind and interesting

226
00:11:58,556 --> 00:12:01,756
Speaker 2: and funny and intelligent we are to impress the other person.

227
00:12:01,916 --> 00:12:02,716
Speaker 4: And that does work.

228
00:12:02,756 --> 00:12:04,676
Speaker 2: I mean, it may work to impress them, but it

229
00:12:04,756 --> 00:12:06,236
Speaker 2: doesn't really forge a connection.

230
00:12:06,316 --> 00:12:08,396
Speaker 4: It doesn't really make them feel love it, or us

231
00:12:08,396 --> 00:12:08,876
Speaker 4: feel loved.

232
00:12:08,916 --> 00:12:12,996
Speaker 2: We're too focused on how we are coming across to

233
00:12:13,076 --> 00:12:15,196
Speaker 2: the other person as opposed to how we're coming forward,

234
00:12:15,236 --> 00:12:17,316
Speaker 2: which is really like, well we can actually do to

235
00:12:17,316 --> 00:12:19,676
Speaker 2: make the other person feel better. There's a kind of

236
00:12:19,676 --> 00:12:22,676
Speaker 2: famous like dating advice, which is on a first date,

237
00:12:22,836 --> 00:12:25,676
Speaker 2: you don't want to make yourself feel better about yourself,

238
00:12:25,676 --> 00:12:28,076
Speaker 2: you want to make them feel better about themselves.

239
00:12:28,356 --> 00:12:31,196
Speaker 1: But it's really counterintuitive. I think we assume that what's

240
00:12:31,236 --> 00:12:33,276
Speaker 1: under our control is showing off how great we are

241
00:12:33,276 --> 00:12:35,716
Speaker 1: getting other people to admire us. But what you're saying

242
00:12:35,756 --> 00:12:37,716
Speaker 1: is no, no, no, it's under your control. But what's

243
00:12:37,756 --> 00:12:40,236
Speaker 1: under your control is that you need to be responsive

244
00:12:40,316 --> 00:12:41,316
Speaker 1: to the other person.

245
00:12:41,796 --> 00:12:42,796
Speaker 4: Right, that's the first step.

246
00:12:42,836 --> 00:12:43,836
Speaker 1: You need to do that first.

247
00:12:44,116 --> 00:12:45,596
Speaker 4: Yeah, But what.

248
00:12:45,476 --> 00:12:48,356
Speaker 1: Does taking that first step look like in practice? What

249
00:12:48,396 --> 00:12:50,956
Speaker 1: are the strategies we can actually use to feel more

250
00:12:50,996 --> 00:12:54,676
Speaker 1: loved and to strengthen the connections that matter most. We'll

251
00:12:54,676 --> 00:12:57,876
Speaker 1: dive into all those answers when the Happiness Lab returns.

252
00:12:57,516 --> 00:12:58,036
Speaker 4: In a moment.

253
00:13:12,636 --> 00:13:15,996
Speaker 1: Social psychologists Sonya Lubermerski and Harry Reees want to help

254
00:13:16,036 --> 00:13:18,756
Speaker 1: a lonely world feel more loved, and they've come up

255
00:13:18,796 --> 00:13:21,836
Speaker 1: with five simple, evidence based mindsets that can help us

256
00:13:21,876 --> 00:13:25,116
Speaker 1: do just that. The first mindset is what they call sharing.

257
00:13:25,516 --> 00:13:27,556
Speaker 1: I asked Harry to describe what that looks like.

258
00:13:28,076 --> 00:13:31,596
Speaker 3: Sharing is simply the idea that in order to feel loved,

259
00:13:31,636 --> 00:13:34,716
Speaker 3: you need to open up about yourself. That is, let's

260
00:13:34,716 --> 00:13:38,956
Speaker 3: say I present a totally curated fantasy view of myself

261
00:13:38,996 --> 00:13:42,956
Speaker 3: to you. You may be impressed, and when you tell

262
00:13:42,996 --> 00:13:46,076
Speaker 3: me about how wonderful that sounds, how do I react? Well,

263
00:13:46,116 --> 00:13:49,356
Speaker 3: it feels hollow because that's not me. That's not the

264
00:13:49,516 --> 00:13:53,916
Speaker 3: me that I most feel. So when I hide myself

265
00:13:53,956 --> 00:13:58,116
Speaker 3: and instead emphasize all my positive qualities, it creates this

266
00:13:58,476 --> 00:14:02,516
Speaker 3: dynamic where the other person may well actually provide what

267
00:14:02,556 --> 00:14:05,796
Speaker 3: you're wanting, and yet it won't ring true because it's

268
00:14:05,876 --> 00:14:09,396
Speaker 3: not the person who I am. And instead, if you

269
00:14:09,436 --> 00:14:12,076
Speaker 3: can open up about the person that you really are,

270
00:14:12,876 --> 00:14:16,436
Speaker 3: then when there is some kind of positive feedbackcoming, it's

271
00:14:16,516 --> 00:14:20,836
Speaker 3: much easier to experience it as real, as genuine, and

272
00:14:20,916 --> 00:14:24,076
Speaker 3: as authentic. Now, it's important to realize that we don't

273
00:14:24,116 --> 00:14:27,236
Speaker 3: mean dump the story of your childhood on everybody in

274
00:14:27,276 --> 00:14:29,636
Speaker 3: the first five minutes you meet them. No, that's not

275
00:14:29,796 --> 00:14:33,036
Speaker 3: what we're saying. What we're saying is that you need

276
00:14:33,076 --> 00:14:37,236
Speaker 3: to simply be genuine and real in talking about who

277
00:14:37,276 --> 00:14:40,316
Speaker 3: you are, and over time you will be able to

278
00:14:40,356 --> 00:14:43,636
Speaker 3: tell those stories about your childhood and the weaknesses and

279
00:14:43,676 --> 00:14:46,556
Speaker 3: the shortcomings and the fears that you have. But that's

280
00:14:46,596 --> 00:14:49,116
Speaker 3: not something you do in the first five minutes. It's

281
00:14:49,116 --> 00:14:50,716
Speaker 3: something that comes down the road.

282
00:14:51,916 --> 00:14:54,116
Speaker 1: So this kind of sharing is really good for us.

283
00:14:54,156 --> 00:14:56,796
Speaker 1: It makes us feel loved, it makes other people love us,

284
00:14:56,876 --> 00:15:00,516
Speaker 1: but it can be incredibly scary it and feel super awkward.

285
00:15:00,996 --> 00:15:03,996
Speaker 1: And Sonya, this is what you've called the paradox of vulnerability.

286
00:15:04,156 --> 00:15:04,476
Speaker 1: What's that?

287
00:15:05,636 --> 00:15:09,276
Speaker 2: Yeah, So to feel loved, we need to be known.

288
00:15:09,436 --> 00:15:11,596
Speaker 2: If we're not really known to another person, who'll always

289
00:15:11,636 --> 00:15:14,556
Speaker 2: wonder would they still love me if they knew me?

290
00:15:15,476 --> 00:15:16,716
Speaker 4: The paradox of vulnerabilities.

291
00:15:16,756 --> 00:15:19,876
Speaker 2: And we think that if we reveal something vulnerable or

292
00:15:19,956 --> 00:15:22,156
Speaker 2: negative about us, maybe a self doubt, that we have,

293
00:15:22,196 --> 00:15:24,996
Speaker 2: an insecurity that we have, maybe even a trauma from

294
00:15:24,996 --> 00:15:27,956
Speaker 2: our childhood, that we would be liked less. And actually

295
00:15:27,996 --> 00:15:31,236
Speaker 2: it turns out that again when done at the right pace,

296
00:15:31,636 --> 00:15:34,116
Speaker 2: that actually we tend to be liked more when we

297
00:15:34,156 --> 00:15:36,756
Speaker 2: reveal something a little deeper about ourselves. Like I actually

298
00:15:36,876 --> 00:15:38,796
Speaker 2: was just talking to someone about After the Bay of

299
00:15:38,916 --> 00:15:41,876
Speaker 2: Pigs when John F. Kennedy admitted he made a mistake.

300
00:15:41,916 --> 00:15:43,796
Speaker 2: Apparently his approval ratings shot up.

301
00:15:44,236 --> 00:15:45,996
Speaker 1: Another thing I think we get wrong when it comes

302
00:15:46,036 --> 00:15:48,876
Speaker 1: to sharing is that we assume that people already know.

303
00:15:49,436 --> 00:15:51,836
Speaker 1: People say how's it going, and you're like fine, and

304
00:15:51,916 --> 00:15:54,236
Speaker 1: you kind of assume that people will see through, Well, no,

305
00:15:54,316 --> 00:15:56,876
Speaker 1: you're not fine. You're having a really tough day. This

306
00:15:56,956 --> 00:16:00,116
Speaker 1: is Perry, what you've called the illusion of transparency. I

307
00:16:00,116 --> 00:16:01,716
Speaker 1: think I can get it from the name, but walk

308
00:16:01,756 --> 00:16:02,596
Speaker 1: me through what this is.

309
00:16:02,916 --> 00:16:06,156
Speaker 3: Well, the illusion of transparency is the idea that we

310
00:16:06,276 --> 00:16:09,836
Speaker 3: think that what's going on in our heads is visible

311
00:16:09,956 --> 00:16:12,476
Speaker 3: to the people who we're interacting with. You know, my

312
00:16:12,556 --> 00:16:15,156
Speaker 3: wife is fond of saying to me, I can't read

313
00:16:15,196 --> 00:16:17,676
Speaker 3: your mind, and I want to say, but what do

314
00:16:17,756 --> 00:16:20,036
Speaker 3: you mean? You know me? You know, we've been together

315
00:16:20,196 --> 00:16:23,436
Speaker 3: for forty one years. But the reality is that other

316
00:16:23,476 --> 00:16:25,916
Speaker 3: people can't know what's in your head. They don't know

317
00:16:25,956 --> 00:16:28,676
Speaker 3: what your day was. And even if they know some

318
00:16:28,756 --> 00:16:31,916
Speaker 3: of the basic facts about what's going on, they don't

319
00:16:31,996 --> 00:16:35,116
Speaker 3: know how you experienced it. They don't know what your

320
00:16:35,196 --> 00:16:39,276
Speaker 3: experience of your life is like. So you really need

321
00:16:39,316 --> 00:16:42,556
Speaker 3: to be articulate about everything so other people can really

322
00:16:42,596 --> 00:16:42,996
Speaker 3: get it.

323
00:16:43,476 --> 00:16:45,436
Speaker 1: And so we need to share. We need to make

324
00:16:45,476 --> 00:16:49,196
Speaker 1: things transparent. But what are some practical strategies for doing that? Well,

325
00:16:49,276 --> 00:16:50,316
Speaker 1: any of your favorite tips?

326
00:16:50,356 --> 00:16:50,676
Speaker 3: Sonya?

327
00:16:51,236 --> 00:16:53,356
Speaker 4: Really just starting small. Someone asks you how you are.

328
00:16:53,396 --> 00:16:55,796
Speaker 2: Instead of saying I'm fine, you might say, oh, I

329
00:16:55,836 --> 00:16:57,636
Speaker 2: had a rough day, or you know, I was sort

330
00:16:57,636 --> 00:16:59,996
Speaker 2: of struggling today a little bit, So kind of starting

331
00:16:59,996 --> 00:17:02,636
Speaker 2: small and then maybe revealing a little bit deeper and

332
00:17:02,716 --> 00:17:04,916
Speaker 2: deeper more of your kind of full self.

333
00:17:05,596 --> 00:17:08,916
Speaker 4: The idea is that the other person hopefully will listen.

334
00:17:09,316 --> 00:17:11,596
Speaker 2: If they listen well and are responsive to us, they

335
00:17:11,596 --> 00:17:15,356
Speaker 2: make us feel understood and valued and loved. That would

336
00:17:15,436 --> 00:17:17,436
Speaker 2: encourage us to open up even more. So that's sort

337
00:17:17,436 --> 00:17:19,276
Speaker 2: of the cycle that we talk about. And then if

338
00:17:19,276 --> 00:17:22,196
Speaker 2: we show genuine curiosity and we listen really well with

339
00:17:22,396 --> 00:17:24,836
Speaker 2: warmth to the other person, they're going to feel even

340
00:17:24,836 --> 00:17:27,396
Speaker 2: a little bit more safety, more trust, and it'll be

341
00:17:27,436 --> 00:17:29,716
Speaker 2: easier for them to open up a little bit more.

342
00:17:30,556 --> 00:17:32,756
Speaker 3: Yeah, And what I would add to it is the

343
00:17:32,876 --> 00:17:37,836
Speaker 3: idea that in our close relationships, such as with your

344
00:17:37,876 --> 00:17:41,876
Speaker 3: living partners, it's very easy to build in a ritual

345
00:17:41,916 --> 00:17:44,396
Speaker 3: of you know, how was your day. But what a

346
00:17:44,436 --> 00:17:46,396
Speaker 3: lot of people do when they do how was your

347
00:17:46,476 --> 00:17:48,956
Speaker 3: day is, you know, recount a few facts and then

348
00:17:49,196 --> 00:17:52,116
Speaker 3: go on to answering their emails. And perhaps most of

349
00:17:52,196 --> 00:17:54,716
Speaker 3: us are so tired at the end of the day

350
00:17:54,756 --> 00:17:56,916
Speaker 3: that we don't really want to go into it. But

351
00:17:57,076 --> 00:17:59,196
Speaker 3: the whole point is that you do have to go

352
00:17:59,316 --> 00:18:02,916
Speaker 3: into it, and you know, to make that a priority

353
00:18:03,036 --> 00:18:06,076
Speaker 3: as opposed to the last thing that you do, and.

354
00:18:06,036 --> 00:18:08,396
Speaker 4: To ask each other questions, and I would say, the

355
00:18:08,516 --> 00:18:09,076
Speaker 4: right kind of question.

356
00:18:09,716 --> 00:18:11,236
Speaker 2: One of the points we make in our book is

357
00:18:11,236 --> 00:18:14,316
Speaker 2: that with longer term relationships, we sort of tend to

358
00:18:14,356 --> 00:18:17,236
Speaker 2: assume that we sort of know the person. You know,

359
00:18:17,236 --> 00:18:19,916
Speaker 2: when we first start meeting someone, whether it's a colleague

360
00:18:19,996 --> 00:18:22,156
Speaker 2: or a friend or a romantic partner, right, we ask

361
00:18:22,196 --> 00:18:25,036
Speaker 2: them a lot of questions, like we're so curious about them,

362
00:18:25,076 --> 00:18:26,796
Speaker 2: and then after a while we just kind of feel like, oh,

363
00:18:26,796 --> 00:18:29,996
Speaker 2: we now know this person, So we often stop asking,

364
00:18:30,116 --> 00:18:34,236
Speaker 2: which is actually kind of really sad because everyone's always changing,

365
00:18:34,276 --> 00:18:37,396
Speaker 2: Like we're always having new experiences and thoughts and doubts

366
00:18:37,396 --> 00:18:40,916
Speaker 2: and fears and dreams and wishes, right, And so to

367
00:18:41,076 --> 00:18:44,476
Speaker 2: keep asking questions sort of these kind of deeper questions

368
00:18:44,476 --> 00:18:45,436
Speaker 2: I think is really important.

369
00:18:45,716 --> 00:18:47,916
Speaker 3: Well, we just make the point, which I think would

370
00:18:47,916 --> 00:18:51,716
Speaker 3: be really useful. It's not the sharing of information that

371
00:18:51,876 --> 00:18:55,036
Speaker 3: is the important part of it. It's the conversation that

372
00:18:55,156 --> 00:18:59,276
Speaker 3: follows from sharing that's important. So if the sharing doesn't

373
00:18:59,356 --> 00:19:03,196
Speaker 3: lead to a conversation, it's just a monologue or an interview.

374
00:19:03,476 --> 00:19:07,476
Speaker 3: But when it leads to a conversation that's genuine, that's

375
00:19:07,716 --> 00:19:10,316
Speaker 3: where the benefit comes from from and.

376
00:19:10,276 --> 00:19:13,316
Speaker 1: This idea that conversation gets to the second important mindset

377
00:19:13,356 --> 00:19:16,316
Speaker 1: that's so critical for making other people feel loved. We

378
00:19:16,396 --> 00:19:19,476
Speaker 1: need to start listening to learn. How is listening to

379
00:19:19,556 --> 00:19:21,916
Speaker 1: learn different than we normally go about listening?

380
00:19:22,436 --> 00:19:25,076
Speaker 3: Well. One of the things that's so interesting about listening

381
00:19:25,076 --> 00:19:27,756
Speaker 3: research is that if you ask people are you a

382
00:19:27,796 --> 00:19:31,436
Speaker 3: good listener, something like ninety percent of people will say

383
00:19:31,436 --> 00:19:34,396
Speaker 3: that they are a good listener. If you ask people,

384
00:19:34,756 --> 00:19:37,996
Speaker 3: do the people around you listen well to you? That

385
00:19:38,076 --> 00:19:42,076
Speaker 3: number drops to about eight percent. It tells you that

386
00:19:42,156 --> 00:19:43,436
Speaker 3: there's a real gap there.

387
00:19:44,076 --> 00:19:46,716
Speaker 2: I think most people feel like they're like pretty good listeners,

388
00:19:46,716 --> 00:19:48,116
Speaker 2: but it turns out that most of us are not

389
00:19:48,196 --> 00:19:51,516
Speaker 2: good listeners, including myself. When we're listening, we're really like

390
00:19:51,636 --> 00:19:54,396
Speaker 2: rehearsing our answer that we're going to give. And I

391
00:19:54,476 --> 00:19:56,756
Speaker 2: do this all the time. It's like we're waiting for

392
00:19:56,796 --> 00:19:59,596
Speaker 2: like the mic to be given to us, and so

393
00:19:59,636 --> 00:20:03,676
Speaker 2: we're sort of listening to respond instead of listening to learn.

394
00:20:03,716 --> 00:20:06,836
Speaker 2: And so it really requires a kind of retraining of

395
00:20:06,876 --> 00:20:09,076
Speaker 2: our mind. And one way to do that is to

396
00:20:09,196 --> 00:20:11,596
Speaker 2: try to listen like you're gonna be tested on it.

397
00:20:11,676 --> 00:20:15,076
Speaker 2: The next day, Harry and I went to a listening workshop.

398
00:20:15,316 --> 00:20:18,236
Speaker 2: We were divided into diads, into pairs of two, and

399
00:20:18,276 --> 00:20:20,836
Speaker 2: we told us story to the other person, and then

400
00:20:20,876 --> 00:20:24,076
Speaker 2: we were supposed to retell the entire story. I remember

401
00:20:24,156 --> 00:20:25,556
Speaker 2: I was paired up with this woman and I was

402
00:20:25,596 --> 00:20:28,276
Speaker 2: listening so hard. I mean, I really wasn't listening very hard,

403
00:20:28,556 --> 00:20:30,236
Speaker 2: like I'm gonna be quizzed on it, because I was.

404
00:20:30,316 --> 00:20:31,876
Speaker 2: Because then I was asked to kind of retell the

405
00:20:31,876 --> 00:20:34,316
Speaker 2: whole story, and I have to tell you. I mean,

406
00:20:34,356 --> 00:20:35,876
Speaker 2: I think I did a pretty good job, but there

407
00:20:35,876 --> 00:20:37,716
Speaker 2: were so many things I got wrong and she was

408
00:20:37,756 --> 00:20:39,756
Speaker 2: like no, no, I never said that, or like no, no,

409
00:20:39,796 --> 00:20:40,836
Speaker 2: that's not how it happened.

410
00:20:40,996 --> 00:20:43,796
Speaker 4: And so the first first is sort of listening like

411
00:20:43,836 --> 00:20:44,876
Speaker 4: you're gonna be quizzed on it.

412
00:20:44,956 --> 00:20:47,716
Speaker 2: But then the second is to ask questions and ask

413
00:20:47,796 --> 00:20:50,356
Speaker 2: the kind of questions that showed the person you were

414
00:20:50,396 --> 00:20:52,756
Speaker 2: really listening, maybe you were even taking it to the

415
00:20:52,796 --> 00:20:56,356
Speaker 2: next level, maybe even better, you had an insight about

416
00:20:56,356 --> 00:20:58,556
Speaker 2: what they were telling you, because that makes the person

417
00:20:58,596 --> 00:21:01,876
Speaker 2: feel so seen, like wow, that person really wants to

418
00:21:01,876 --> 00:21:02,396
Speaker 2: know about.

419
00:21:02,236 --> 00:21:04,596
Speaker 4: My inner life. Right, So ask each other questions.

420
00:21:05,556 --> 00:21:07,676
Speaker 1: And so this idea of feeling seen suggests there's all

421
00:21:07,716 --> 00:21:11,156
Speaker 1: these benefits to being listened to. But Harry, what are

422
00:21:11,196 --> 00:21:13,476
Speaker 1: some of these benefits and are there also benefits when

423
00:21:13,516 --> 00:21:15,236
Speaker 1: you are doing the listening.

424
00:21:15,996 --> 00:21:19,196
Speaker 3: Well, there are many benefits of feeling listened to. It

425
00:21:19,316 --> 00:21:22,756
Speaker 3: leads people to feel more trust in you, It improves

426
00:21:22,796 --> 00:21:26,956
Speaker 3: the relationship. They're a wonderful study done by our colleague

427
00:21:26,996 --> 00:21:31,476
Speaker 3: Guy Ichikov in Israel shows that burnout is much less

428
00:21:31,516 --> 00:21:34,516
Speaker 3: of a problem when teachers in particular feel listened to

429
00:21:34,796 --> 00:21:38,716
Speaker 3: by their principles. Other studies show than couples when they

430
00:21:38,796 --> 00:21:42,556
Speaker 3: feel listened to, conflict goes much better. And it's not

431
00:21:42,636 --> 00:21:46,596
Speaker 3: necessarily that they are better able to resolve conflict. It's

432
00:21:46,636 --> 00:21:50,876
Speaker 3: that the conflict becomes less pernicious, people become less defensive,

433
00:21:51,556 --> 00:21:54,756
Speaker 3: and as a result, they end up feeling better even

434
00:21:54,796 --> 00:21:58,836
Speaker 3: if that original issue hasn't been resolved. So it builds

435
00:21:58,956 --> 00:22:04,636
Speaker 3: trust and connection and a real sense of partnership and interdependence.

436
00:22:04,916 --> 00:22:07,436
Speaker 1: It sounds like if you're boosting people's sense of trust,

437
00:22:07,476 --> 00:22:10,156
Speaker 1: if you're boosting the sense of partnership, then the listener

438
00:22:10,516 --> 00:22:12,396
Speaker 1: will also get these benefits as well.

439
00:22:13,396 --> 00:22:16,516
Speaker 2: Have an example actually from just recently, I was talking

440
00:22:16,516 --> 00:22:19,356
Speaker 2: to a friend who basically said that she didn't feel

441
00:22:19,676 --> 00:22:22,436
Speaker 2: very loved by her adult daughter who's about like twenty

442
00:22:22,476 --> 00:22:24,996
Speaker 2: eight years old, and so she's like trying to figure

443
00:22:24,996 --> 00:22:26,636
Speaker 2: out how to feel more loved by dorl Like, maybe

444
00:22:26,636 --> 00:22:28,596
Speaker 2: she can talk to her and say, I don't feel

445
00:22:28,756 --> 00:22:31,196
Speaker 2: loved by you, and I said, well, actually the thing

446
00:22:31,276 --> 00:22:33,916
Speaker 2: to do is to listen to her. Start by listening right,

447
00:22:33,996 --> 00:22:36,476
Speaker 2: just by making her feel love first, sort of, to

448
00:22:36,556 --> 00:22:40,556
Speaker 2: show genuine curiosity and really listen to what she cares.

449
00:22:40,316 --> 00:22:43,716
Speaker 3: About, and to just take that a step further. One

450
00:22:43,756 --> 00:22:47,516
Speaker 3: of the all time classics in this area is Dale

451
00:22:47,556 --> 00:22:51,116
Speaker 3: Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People. If you

452
00:22:51,276 --> 00:22:54,716
Speaker 3: look at his six rules of how to do that,

453
00:22:55,316 --> 00:22:58,356
Speaker 3: they're all about listening to the other person. They're all

454
00:22:58,396 --> 00:23:02,036
Speaker 3: about making the other person feel that you're interested in them,

455
00:23:02,156 --> 00:23:04,356
Speaker 3: you value them, you care about them.

456
00:23:04,876 --> 00:23:07,116
Speaker 1: You had one Dale Carnegie suggestion in the book that

457
00:23:07,196 --> 00:23:09,476
Speaker 1: I loved this idea that if you want to make

458
00:23:09,476 --> 00:23:11,956
Speaker 1: other people feel loved, you should ask questions that the

459
00:23:12,036 --> 00:23:15,076
Speaker 1: other person will enjoy answering. I love that one.

460
00:23:15,476 --> 00:23:16,516
Speaker 4: I love del CARNEGIEY.

461
00:23:16,596 --> 00:23:18,556
Speaker 2: I've read that book like three times that there's like

462
00:23:18,596 --> 00:23:21,596
Speaker 2: a version for teen girls, and I actually bought that

463
00:23:21,636 --> 00:23:23,716
Speaker 2: book to give it to my daughters. I have three daughters,

464
00:23:23,996 --> 00:23:26,156
Speaker 2: and actually one of my daughters is twelve, and she

465
00:23:26,196 --> 00:23:28,596
Speaker 2: told me just the other day that she remembered one

466
00:23:28,636 --> 00:23:31,116
Speaker 2: of her friends mentioning some kind of sport that her

467
00:23:31,116 --> 00:23:32,396
Speaker 2: friend was really really into.

468
00:23:32,876 --> 00:23:34,996
Speaker 4: And then a month later she's like, mom, I remembered

469
00:23:34,996 --> 00:23:36,036
Speaker 4: that she really liked this sport.

470
00:23:36,116 --> 00:23:38,156
Speaker 2: So I asked her, blah blah blah, you know, tell

471
00:23:38,156 --> 00:23:40,116
Speaker 2: me about this sport, and the girl was like so

472
00:23:40,196 --> 00:23:43,036
Speaker 2: excited and just started going on and on about this

473
00:23:43,076 --> 00:23:43,756
Speaker 2: passion of hers.

474
00:23:43,796 --> 00:23:45,796
Speaker 4: Right, So it's pretty simple actually yet.

475
00:23:45,676 --> 00:23:48,196
Speaker 2: To remember what it is the other person really wants

476
00:23:48,196 --> 00:23:50,236
Speaker 2: to talk about, and then to ask them about it.

477
00:23:50,676 --> 00:23:52,636
Speaker 1: So that was mindset number two, we need to listen

478
00:23:52,676 --> 00:23:55,676
Speaker 1: to learn a little bit better. Mindset three is one

479
00:23:55,676 --> 00:23:58,116
Speaker 1: that we know benefits are happiness. It is that we

480
00:23:58,196 --> 00:24:01,396
Speaker 1: need to get really curious. Sonya, you've called this idea

481
00:24:01,516 --> 00:24:05,076
Speaker 1: radical curiosity. What's the radical part of radical curiosity?

482
00:24:05,556 --> 00:24:08,796
Speaker 2: Sometimes people have trouble understanding the difference between good listening

483
00:24:08,836 --> 00:24:11,316
Speaker 2: and curiosity, and so I like to sort of use

484
00:24:11,356 --> 00:24:11,956
Speaker 2: this example.

485
00:24:12,316 --> 00:24:15,716
Speaker 4: Imagine listening to a lecture or a podcast for that matter.

486
00:24:15,516 --> 00:24:18,476
Speaker 2: And maybe you're like really listening, well, you're taking notes,

487
00:24:18,476 --> 00:24:20,716
Speaker 2: and maybe you're even tested on it and you get

488
00:24:20,716 --> 00:24:23,716
Speaker 2: an A plus. But it doesn't mean you're curious, right,

489
00:24:23,756 --> 00:24:26,316
Speaker 2: So you can be a great listener without actually being curious.

490
00:24:26,476 --> 00:24:30,236
Speaker 2: To be curious is to be genuinely interested, and sometimes

491
00:24:30,276 --> 00:24:32,276
Speaker 2: it's to be interested in the topic, and sometimes it's

492
00:24:32,276 --> 00:24:33,556
Speaker 2: to be interested in the person.

493
00:24:33,716 --> 00:24:36,636
Speaker 4: So let's say I'm really into basketball and you're talking about.

494
00:24:36,396 --> 00:24:38,196
Speaker 2: Basketball, Like, I may not be interested in you at

495
00:24:38,196 --> 00:24:40,796
Speaker 2: all as a person, but I'm curious about the topic.

496
00:24:40,996 --> 00:24:43,036
Speaker 2: I think it's more powerful when you're really curious about

497
00:24:43,036 --> 00:24:44,916
Speaker 2: the person again, kind of like you make a new

498
00:24:44,916 --> 00:24:47,116
Speaker 2: friend or you're falling in love and then you're just

499
00:24:47,116 --> 00:24:49,716
Speaker 2: sort of curious about anything about their life, right, And

500
00:24:49,756 --> 00:24:51,956
Speaker 2: so genuinosity when you just sort of want to know

501
00:24:52,116 --> 00:24:54,196
Speaker 2: more and more and you're like, in the moment, you're

502
00:24:54,236 --> 00:24:57,316
Speaker 2: experiencing flow, you're not distracted. This is kind of some

503
00:24:57,356 --> 00:25:00,396
Speaker 2: of the symptoms of genuine radical curiosity.

504
00:25:00,636 --> 00:25:02,836
Speaker 1: I love the basketball analogy because it fits with a

505
00:25:02,836 --> 00:25:04,316
Speaker 1: piece of advice that you had in your book that

506
00:25:04,356 --> 00:25:07,556
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed. This idea of focusing on the person

507
00:25:07,716 --> 00:25:10,196
Speaker 1: rather than the topic. It's one thing to be like, oh,

508
00:25:10,236 --> 00:25:13,396
Speaker 1: basketball sounds cool, Like tell me about the scores or

509
00:25:13,436 --> 00:25:15,316
Speaker 1: the core. I don't know. I'm not into basketball so

510
00:25:15,796 --> 00:25:18,796
Speaker 1: that much about basketball, embarrassingly, But rather than do that,

511
00:25:18,796 --> 00:25:20,476
Speaker 1: you don't even have to worry about not knowing about

512
00:25:20,476 --> 00:25:22,516
Speaker 1: the topic, because what you care about is the person.

513
00:25:22,956 --> 00:25:25,556
Speaker 1: How did you get into basketball? How does basketball make

514
00:25:25,596 --> 00:25:28,116
Speaker 1: you feel? You're kind of digging into the person rather

515
00:25:28,196 --> 00:25:31,076
Speaker 1: than the topic, which is a powerful way to activate

516
00:25:31,116 --> 00:25:33,676
Speaker 1: this social curiosity. And sonya, I know that you've done

517
00:25:33,716 --> 00:25:36,076
Speaker 1: some work on the benefits of curiosity. What have you

518
00:25:36,116 --> 00:25:37,396
Speaker 1: found so far in your lab?

519
00:25:37,596 --> 00:25:37,796
Speaker 3: Yeah.

520
00:25:37,796 --> 00:25:39,916
Speaker 2: One of my students medicine did her what we call

521
00:25:39,956 --> 00:25:42,556
Speaker 2: her second year project and of our master's thesis, the

522
00:25:42,636 --> 00:25:45,796
Speaker 2: Intervention on Curiosity. She basically asked people over the course

523
00:25:45,836 --> 00:25:49,116
Speaker 2: of a week to engage in some kind of curious behavior.

524
00:25:49,276 --> 00:25:52,556
Speaker 2: So we really enjoyed looking at the examples. These are undergraduates,

525
00:25:52,756 --> 00:25:54,756
Speaker 2: so it was like, oh, I discovered this new kind

526
00:25:54,796 --> 00:25:57,076
Speaker 2: of dance and I wanted to learn more about this

527
00:25:57,156 --> 00:25:59,316
Speaker 2: sort of dance. Or my friend had a recipe, so

528
00:25:59,316 --> 00:26:01,556
Speaker 2: I was learning about how to make this dish. It

529
00:26:01,556 --> 00:26:03,876
Speaker 2: could be anything, right, And so we found that people

530
00:26:03,956 --> 00:26:07,596
Speaker 2: who actively and intentionally tried to be more curious every day,

531
00:26:07,796 --> 00:26:12,476
Speaker 2: they showed more positive they showed fewer negative motions, greater wellbeing,

532
00:26:12,836 --> 00:26:16,036
Speaker 2: greatest sense of self worth, interestingly, and greatest sense of

533
00:26:16,076 --> 00:26:17,276
Speaker 2: autonomy or control.

534
00:26:17,716 --> 00:26:20,036
Speaker 1: So it seems like curiosity has all these benefits, both

535
00:26:20,076 --> 00:26:22,756
Speaker 1: maybe to how we're feeling, but also to the relationship

536
00:26:22,836 --> 00:26:25,916
Speaker 1: into helping other people feel loved, Harry, are there any

537
00:26:25,956 --> 00:26:29,836
Speaker 1: best practices for kind of engaging your curiosity in conversation

538
00:26:29,956 --> 00:26:32,396
Speaker 1: making other people realize that you are in fact curious.

539
00:26:32,796 --> 00:26:35,276
Speaker 3: Well, there's in fact a great irony to this idea.

540
00:26:35,476 --> 00:26:38,996
Speaker 3: Think about how people go about weeding through the many

541
00:26:39,236 --> 00:26:42,636
Speaker 3: people they see on online dating sites. Most people will

542
00:26:42,676 --> 00:26:45,436
Speaker 3: have a checklist, and they're typically looking for someone who

543
00:26:45,556 --> 00:26:48,716
Speaker 3: shares their interests. In fact, there are many niche sites.

544
00:26:48,756 --> 00:26:51,476
Speaker 3: You know, there's a site for mustache lovers, a site

545
00:26:51,476 --> 00:26:54,996
Speaker 3: for farmers, there's a site for baseball fans, and so

546
00:26:55,116 --> 00:26:59,236
Speaker 3: you're looking for someone who matches the interest that you

547
00:26:59,436 --> 00:27:03,636
Speaker 3: already have. But the idea of curiosity fits with an

548
00:27:03,676 --> 00:27:07,116
Speaker 3: important theory we have in relationships called self expansion theory,

549
00:27:07,556 --> 00:27:10,036
Speaker 3: which is the idea that one of the reasons we

550
00:27:10,476 --> 00:27:14,276
Speaker 3: form close relationships is to expand our sense of self

551
00:27:14,756 --> 00:27:18,516
Speaker 3: and that can mean learning new things. So you know,

552
00:27:18,556 --> 00:27:21,316
Speaker 3: I don't like opera very much, but if I were

553
00:27:21,396 --> 00:27:23,716
Speaker 3: to pair up with someone who's into opera, if I

554
00:27:23,756 --> 00:27:27,476
Speaker 3: was curious, I would say, wow, teach me about opera.

555
00:27:27,596 --> 00:27:31,516
Speaker 3: Let me learn about what's interesting about opera. And you

556
00:27:31,556 --> 00:27:35,236
Speaker 3: can expand yourself in those ways. So one of the

557
00:27:35,276 --> 00:27:38,636
Speaker 3: things that's really nice about the idea of curiosity, and

558
00:27:38,676 --> 00:27:43,476
Speaker 3: when Sonya talks about there being social curiosity and thing curiosity,

559
00:27:43,636 --> 00:27:47,156
Speaker 3: is sometimes those things are actually merged because you become

560
00:27:47,316 --> 00:27:52,636
Speaker 3: interested in another person by being interested in what interests them.

561
00:27:53,276 --> 00:27:56,116
Speaker 1: So far, we've covered three at the major mindsets Harry

562
00:27:56,156 --> 00:28:00,196
Speaker 1: and Sonya recommend for feeling more loved, sharing, listening to learn,

563
00:28:00,316 --> 00:28:03,916
Speaker 1: and radical curiosity, but we still have two more to explore,

564
00:28:04,276 --> 00:28:06,436
Speaker 1: plus some guidance on what to do when you've tried

565
00:28:06,476 --> 00:28:08,916
Speaker 1: all these strategies and you still don't feel as loved

566
00:28:09,236 --> 00:28:12,316
Speaker 1: you'd hoped. We'll cover all that when The Happiest Lab

567
00:28:12,356 --> 00:28:30,236
Speaker 1: returns from the break. We're back with social psychologists Sonya

568
00:28:30,316 --> 00:28:33,436
Speaker 1: Lubermriski and Harry Reese, who are sharing the mindsets that

569
00:28:33,476 --> 00:28:36,436
Speaker 1: research shows we need to embrace in order to feel loved.

570
00:28:37,036 --> 00:28:39,596
Speaker 1: Number four mindset on their list is what Harry has

571
00:28:39,636 --> 00:28:41,196
Speaker 1: called open heartedness.

572
00:28:41,476 --> 00:28:46,396
Speaker 3: An open hearted mindset means being genuinely caring toward the

573
00:28:46,436 --> 00:28:49,556
Speaker 3: other person, certainly giving them the benefit of the doubt,

574
00:28:50,116 --> 00:28:54,396
Speaker 3: simply being as concerned as we can for their welfare,

575
00:28:54,476 --> 00:28:59,836
Speaker 3: being kind, being generous, being altruistic. For example, when they

576
00:28:59,876 --> 00:29:02,796
Speaker 3: tell you something that maybe sounds a little bit shady,

577
00:29:03,476 --> 00:29:07,276
Speaker 3: have the most benign interpretation that you can think of

578
00:29:07,356 --> 00:29:10,276
Speaker 3: what they're doing in the most positive of light, and

579
00:29:10,636 --> 00:29:13,996
Speaker 3: you'll find that when you do that, the other person

580
00:29:14,236 --> 00:29:17,996
Speaker 3: tends to respond much more positively, rather than getting defensive

581
00:29:18,076 --> 00:29:20,836
Speaker 3: and closed up from it. One of the things that

582
00:29:20,956 --> 00:29:22,876
Speaker 3: we talk about in the book is the idea of

583
00:29:22,876 --> 00:29:27,876
Speaker 3: a communal relationship, a relationship that's defined in terms of

584
00:29:27,956 --> 00:29:30,756
Speaker 3: caring about the well being of the other and expecting

585
00:29:30,796 --> 00:29:35,196
Speaker 3: that they care about your wellbeing. Nearly all of our

586
00:29:35,236 --> 00:29:39,916
Speaker 3: most satisfying relationships are communal relationships with our children, with

587
00:29:40,036 --> 00:29:43,756
Speaker 3: our parents, with our romantic partners, with the people we

588
00:29:43,756 --> 00:29:46,956
Speaker 3: would call a best friend. Those are the relationships that

589
00:29:46,996 --> 00:29:49,116
Speaker 3: are most deeply meaningful to people.

590
00:29:50,076 --> 00:29:52,596
Speaker 1: It probably seems obvious that being on the receiving end

591
00:29:52,596 --> 00:29:55,396
Speaker 1: of an open art mindset feels really good. Right, people

592
00:29:55,476 --> 00:29:58,356
Speaker 1: are caring about you, wanting you to be happy. But Sonia,

593
00:29:58,396 --> 00:30:00,716
Speaker 1: some of your lovely work has shown the benefits of

594
00:30:00,796 --> 00:30:04,636
Speaker 1: giving the open heart mindset kind of extending kindness and compassion.

595
00:30:04,996 --> 00:30:06,756
Speaker 1: What does the research show about the benefits of that.

596
00:30:07,076 --> 00:30:08,676
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's one of the most powerful things you can

597
00:30:08,716 --> 00:30:11,636
Speaker 2: do to improve your own happiness is to show an

598
00:30:11,636 --> 00:30:14,676
Speaker 2: open heart towards other people. Basically, if you want to

599
00:30:14,716 --> 00:30:17,076
Speaker 2: be happy, try to make other people happy and so

600
00:30:17,196 --> 00:30:19,636
Speaker 2: in our studies, for example, we ask people to do

601
00:30:20,196 --> 00:30:23,076
Speaker 2: random acts of kindness for other people over the course

602
00:30:23,076 --> 00:30:25,396
Speaker 2: of say four weeks a month usually, and then one

603
00:30:25,436 --> 00:30:28,636
Speaker 2: of the most important comparison conditions is we ask people

604
00:30:28,676 --> 00:30:31,916
Speaker 2: to do acts of kindness for themselves, which is also nice,

605
00:30:31,956 --> 00:30:34,156
Speaker 2: which also is self care or self indulgent acts. It

606
00:30:34,156 --> 00:30:37,556
Speaker 2: feels good to something kind for yourself, but that tends

607
00:30:37,556 --> 00:30:39,396
Speaker 2: to be more fleeting, Right, So you get yourself at

608
00:30:39,396 --> 00:30:41,916
Speaker 2: ice cream, you get a massage, you take a nap,

609
00:30:42,316 --> 00:30:44,476
Speaker 2: so it feels good in the moment, doesn't necessarily carry

610
00:30:44,516 --> 00:30:47,076
Speaker 2: over a month later. We actually have a study where

611
00:30:47,116 --> 00:30:49,996
Speaker 2: we compared givers and receivers in a workplace where we

612
00:30:50,036 --> 00:30:52,556
Speaker 2: ask some people to be the givers and others the receivers.

613
00:30:52,836 --> 00:30:55,796
Speaker 2: We literally found evidence to support this better to give

614
00:30:55,796 --> 00:30:58,996
Speaker 2: than to receive. The receivers became kind of happier right away,

615
00:30:59,396 --> 00:31:03,956
Speaker 2: but the givers actually experienced benefits less stress, less depression,

616
00:31:04,156 --> 00:31:06,636
Speaker 2: even greater well being four months.

617
00:31:06,516 --> 00:31:08,036
Speaker 4: Later, sixteen weeks later.

618
00:31:08,396 --> 00:31:10,076
Speaker 2: So we find that people who do acts of kindness

619
00:31:10,116 --> 00:31:14,396
Speaker 2: for others, essentially who show an open heart mindset towards others,

620
00:31:14,476 --> 00:31:17,476
Speaker 2: become happier and also feel more connected in general.

621
00:31:18,156 --> 00:31:19,876
Speaker 1: You also have some data showing that it makes people

622
00:31:19,876 --> 00:31:21,996
Speaker 1: more successful too. Write We have.

623
00:31:21,956 --> 00:31:24,796
Speaker 2: A study with kids nine to eleven year old kids

624
00:31:24,796 --> 00:31:26,756
Speaker 2: where we asked the kids to do acts of kindness

625
00:31:26,756 --> 00:31:28,556
Speaker 2: for others, and we find that when they did acts

626
00:31:28,596 --> 00:31:31,996
Speaker 2: of kindness for others generally in their family, they came

627
00:31:32,036 --> 00:31:34,756
Speaker 2: back to the classroom and they actually became more popular.

628
00:31:34,796 --> 00:31:37,956
Speaker 2: So literally, the other kids liked them more when they

629
00:31:37,956 --> 00:31:39,116
Speaker 2: did acts of kindness at home.

630
00:31:39,196 --> 00:31:40,836
Speaker 4: So something must have rubbed off on them.

631
00:31:40,876 --> 00:31:42,396
Speaker 2: So when they came back to the classroom, maybe they

632
00:31:42,556 --> 00:31:45,196
Speaker 2: just seem more positive, more confident. Maybe they weren't more

633
00:31:45,196 --> 00:31:48,436
Speaker 2: helpful in the classroom as well. We also find genomic

634
00:31:48,516 --> 00:31:51,156
Speaker 2: benefits to acts of kindness for others. So people who

635
00:31:51,196 --> 00:31:54,236
Speaker 2: do acts of kindness for others relative to for themselves,

636
00:31:54,596 --> 00:31:58,356
Speaker 2: they show changes in their RNA gene expression associated with

637
00:31:58,476 --> 00:32:01,916
Speaker 2: a healthier immune profile, so sort of less pro inflammatory

638
00:32:01,956 --> 00:32:05,916
Speaker 2: gene expression in some studies, greater anti viral gene expressions.

639
00:32:05,916 --> 00:32:08,316
Speaker 4: So these are all associated with better immune health.

640
00:32:09,196 --> 00:32:12,236
Speaker 1: We're feeling better, we're helping our immune systems when we're

641
00:32:12,276 --> 00:32:14,556
Speaker 1: doing these nice things for other people. Another way that

642
00:32:14,596 --> 00:32:16,596
Speaker 1: we can become open hearted towards the people that we

643
00:32:16,636 --> 00:32:18,716
Speaker 1: are trying to love better is to see them in

644
00:32:18,796 --> 00:32:21,276
Speaker 1: all of their facets. And that gets to the final

645
00:32:21,316 --> 00:32:24,076
Speaker 1: mindset that you've talked about as boosting our ability to

646
00:32:24,076 --> 00:32:27,756
Speaker 1: love others. This idea of multiplicity, Harry, what's multiplicity and

647
00:32:27,756 --> 00:32:30,636
Speaker 1: why is it so important for making others feel loved well?

648
00:32:30,716 --> 00:32:34,076
Speaker 3: Multiplicity is the idea that we all have many selves,

649
00:32:34,196 --> 00:32:39,396
Speaker 3: many parts to ourselves. Some of these parts are genuinely wonderful,

650
00:32:39,876 --> 00:32:42,596
Speaker 3: you know, the positive traits we have, and some of them,

651
00:32:42,916 --> 00:32:48,556
Speaker 3: shall we say, less terrific things that we've been embarrassed by, shortcomings, weaknesses,

652
00:32:48,796 --> 00:32:52,316
Speaker 3: flaws in our character. We go to great pains to

653
00:32:52,516 --> 00:32:55,556
Speaker 3: hide these, and one of the things that can really

654
00:32:55,836 --> 00:33:00,676
Speaker 3: boost a relationship tremendously is the idea of acknowledging those

655
00:33:00,676 --> 00:33:04,756
Speaker 3: flaws in another person and being accepting of them, even

656
00:33:04,796 --> 00:33:08,956
Speaker 3: being loving towards them. One part of that is simply

657
00:33:09,236 --> 00:33:12,676
Speaker 3: coming up with the most benign interpretation that you can

658
00:33:12,876 --> 00:33:16,796
Speaker 3: for a shortcoming, but another way is simply to recognize, well,

659
00:33:17,796 --> 00:33:20,796
Speaker 3: I don't like what you did, but I recognize that

660
00:33:20,836 --> 00:33:24,396
Speaker 3: there's many sides to you. So when we don't focus

661
00:33:24,436 --> 00:33:28,596
Speaker 3: so much on the negative character attribution for a person's

662
00:33:28,596 --> 00:33:31,996
Speaker 3: shortcomings and instead focus on, well, you may have done

663
00:33:31,996 --> 00:33:35,956
Speaker 3: something that wasn't desirable, but that's just one part of you,

664
00:33:36,076 --> 00:33:39,396
Speaker 3: and you've probably done many wonderful things in your life.

665
00:33:40,276 --> 00:33:42,956
Speaker 3: Part of the importance of that is that allows the

666
00:33:43,036 --> 00:33:46,036
Speaker 3: other to feel loved and accepted. But the other side

667
00:33:46,076 --> 00:33:49,076
Speaker 3: of that is that if you start to adopt that

668
00:33:49,236 --> 00:33:53,356
Speaker 3: idea towards yourself, to have compassion for your own shortcomings

669
00:33:53,436 --> 00:33:56,316
Speaker 3: and your own weaknesses, you make it that much more

670
00:33:56,676 --> 00:33:59,956
Speaker 3: likely that you will feel loved. If you focus on

671
00:34:00,796 --> 00:34:03,396
Speaker 3: bad things that you've done and you feel like those

672
00:34:03,396 --> 00:34:07,236
Speaker 3: things rule out being happy, that they rule out anyone

673
00:34:07,356 --> 00:34:10,676
Speaker 3: ever expressing love to do you make it impossible to

674
00:34:10,756 --> 00:34:16,036
Speaker 3: feel loved? So acknowledging that humans have multiple size and

675
00:34:16,076 --> 00:34:19,236
Speaker 3: we've all done things that we wish we hadn't done,

676
00:34:19,876 --> 00:34:22,316
Speaker 3: will make it that much more likely that we can

677
00:34:22,396 --> 00:34:22,996
Speaker 3: feel loved.

678
00:34:23,436 --> 00:34:24,996
Speaker 4: I want to add that it's so hard.

679
00:34:25,756 --> 00:34:29,236
Speaker 2: I think we are all kind of judgmental, maybe sort

680
00:34:29,276 --> 00:34:32,236
Speaker 2: of evolutionarily speaking, that served us well to kind of,

681
00:34:32,676 --> 00:34:35,236
Speaker 2: you know, when we see someone engage in a bad

682
00:34:35,316 --> 00:34:38,636
Speaker 2: behavior that we maybe need to kind of be wary

683
00:34:38,636 --> 00:34:39,276
Speaker 2: of that person.

684
00:34:39,916 --> 00:34:41,516
Speaker 4: So it's really, really hard. I actually had the experienced

685
00:34:41,516 --> 00:34:42,156
Speaker 4: recently where I.

686
00:34:42,156 --> 00:34:45,756
Speaker 2: Was on Zoom meeting a new group of people, and

687
00:34:45,836 --> 00:34:47,876
Speaker 2: we had these prompt stands, and one of the prompts

688
00:34:47,956 --> 00:34:50,916
Speaker 2: was name something that you have changed your mind about

689
00:34:51,276 --> 00:34:53,596
Speaker 2: my insert And I'm kind of regretting that I said

690
00:34:53,596 --> 00:34:56,236
Speaker 2: this is that I have a friend who did a.

691
00:34:56,116 --> 00:34:56,956
Speaker 4: Very bad thing.

692
00:34:57,036 --> 00:34:59,196
Speaker 2: And so I said that he did this very bad thing,

693
00:34:59,356 --> 00:35:01,276
Speaker 2: but I still his friend. You know, I sort of

694
00:35:01,276 --> 00:35:04,556
Speaker 2: see him in this sort of very messy complexity. He

695
00:35:04,596 --> 00:35:06,676
Speaker 2: made a mistake, He has lots of other good size

696
00:35:06,716 --> 00:35:08,516
Speaker 2: and I have to tell you, I'm not going to stay

697
00:35:08,516 --> 00:35:10,436
Speaker 2: it on air, but I said what he did, and

698
00:35:10,516 --> 00:35:13,836
Speaker 2: people just looked at me like, oh my god, I

699
00:35:13,836 --> 00:35:17,036
Speaker 2: feel like they were judging me for not being judgmental enough.

700
00:35:17,036 --> 00:35:19,836
Speaker 2: So anyway, that's kind of an extreme example. But I mean,

701
00:35:19,876 --> 00:35:22,036
Speaker 2: think about like all of us at our lowest moment,

702
00:35:22,196 --> 00:35:24,396
Speaker 2: right if anyone saw us at our lowest moment, we'd

703
00:35:24,436 --> 00:35:25,236
Speaker 2: be pretty ashamed.

704
00:35:25,236 --> 00:35:28,036
Speaker 4: So let's remember that. But again, I also wanted to.

705
00:35:28,036 --> 00:35:30,876
Speaker 2: Sort of reiterate what Harry said about turning multiple city

706
00:35:30,916 --> 00:35:34,116
Speaker 2: mindset also the open heart mindset onto ourselves and sort

707
00:35:34,156 --> 00:35:38,676
Speaker 2: of having compassion for ourselves and having self love for ourselves.

708
00:35:39,036 --> 00:35:41,916
Speaker 2: It'll help us feel loved in part because when you

709
00:35:41,916 --> 00:35:44,316
Speaker 2: think about there are people who love us, imagine them

710
00:35:44,356 --> 00:35:47,236
Speaker 2: sort of pouring love on us, but it's not getting in,

711
00:35:47,716 --> 00:35:49,396
Speaker 2: and so it's like a cup of love and there's

712
00:35:49,396 --> 00:35:50,556
Speaker 2: sort of a lid on it and sort of not

713
00:35:50,636 --> 00:35:53,556
Speaker 2: getting in. And I think of like self love and

714
00:35:53,556 --> 00:35:56,836
Speaker 2: self compassion as a way to open that opening at

715
00:35:56,836 --> 00:35:59,476
Speaker 2: the top. When you really love yourself, people see that

716
00:35:59,516 --> 00:36:01,716
Speaker 2: by the way, they sort of reflect that appraisal of yourself,

717
00:36:01,876 --> 00:36:05,076
Speaker 2: and you also see their love is more authentic. If

718
00:36:05,116 --> 00:36:07,836
Speaker 2: you have self love for yourself, you'ren't suspicious of other

719
00:36:07,836 --> 00:36:10,956
Speaker 2: people's kindness. But you see as authentic that person really

720
00:36:10,956 --> 00:36:12,716
Speaker 2: does love me, you know when they say that positive

721
00:36:12,756 --> 00:36:14,876
Speaker 2: thing about me, when they give you that compliment, that's

722
00:36:14,876 --> 00:36:17,636
Speaker 2: actually real and genuine. So yeah, you're sort of making

723
00:36:17,636 --> 00:36:20,716
Speaker 2: that opening wider and easier to receive love from others

724
00:36:20,756 --> 00:36:22,796
Speaker 2: and thus to feel love by others.

725
00:36:23,996 --> 00:36:28,236
Speaker 1: Any practical strategies for increasing your ability to see others

726
00:36:28,316 --> 00:36:32,196
Speaker 1: as there multiple messy selves that can be loved anyway, Well, the.

727
00:36:32,116 --> 00:36:34,996
Speaker 3: Most of this one is, no matter what you hear,

728
00:36:35,676 --> 00:36:40,116
Speaker 3: make your first place to go to be seeing it

729
00:36:40,196 --> 00:36:42,636
Speaker 3: in a non judgmental way. I mean, we all have

730
00:36:42,716 --> 00:36:46,036
Speaker 3: this tendency. This on you is describing to respond emotionally,

731
00:36:46,076 --> 00:36:50,196
Speaker 3: to respond judgmentally short circuit it. When you hear about

732
00:36:50,196 --> 00:36:54,676
Speaker 3: something that someone did, make your first thought be why

733
00:36:54,756 --> 00:36:58,076
Speaker 3: might they have done something that they didn't mean to

734
00:36:58,156 --> 00:36:59,516
Speaker 3: do in that situation?

735
00:36:59,996 --> 00:37:02,076
Speaker 1: And if it's with how all these mindsets go together?

736
00:37:02,156 --> 00:37:02,316
Speaker 3: Right?

737
00:37:02,356 --> 00:37:05,436
Speaker 1: What you're describing in that case is, if you're feeling judgmental,

738
00:37:05,476 --> 00:37:07,276
Speaker 1: try to shut off the judgment and turn on a

739
00:37:07,316 --> 00:37:09,636
Speaker 1: little bit of curiosity. Then you can listen to learn

740
00:37:09,676 --> 00:37:12,116
Speaker 1: about why the person really did it exactly.

741
00:37:12,236 --> 00:37:15,116
Speaker 2: Curiosity Actually, caste is so useful imagine in the middle

742
00:37:15,116 --> 00:37:17,796
Speaker 2: of a fight with your spouse, they're really angry, and

743
00:37:17,836 --> 00:37:20,076
Speaker 2: you stop yourself and you think, I'm so curious why

744
00:37:20,116 --> 00:37:23,516
Speaker 2: they're so angry. Right, That is a powerful technique. But yeah, again,

745
00:37:23,636 --> 00:37:27,796
Speaker 2: just like everything gets better with practice. I used to

746
00:37:27,876 --> 00:37:30,436
Speaker 2: be I think a lot more judgmental. I'm sure I

747
00:37:30,436 --> 00:37:32,596
Speaker 2: still am at times. But when I hear like a

748
00:37:32,596 --> 00:37:34,556
Speaker 2: friend will say, can you believe what this guy blah

749
00:37:34,556 --> 00:37:37,916
Speaker 2: blah blah did? Now, more often than not, my first

750
00:37:37,916 --> 00:37:40,716
Speaker 2: reaction is to think about, like, why that person did

751
00:37:40,756 --> 00:37:45,076
Speaker 2: that thing, and often I imagine them as a young child. Actually,

752
00:37:45,116 --> 00:37:48,076
Speaker 2: to see someone as a young child, it often is

753
00:37:48,116 --> 00:37:50,996
Speaker 2: actually helpful to reduce that judgment.

754
00:37:51,316 --> 00:37:54,076
Speaker 3: And of course to just build on this. One of

755
00:37:54,156 --> 00:37:56,956
Speaker 3: the things that's really important to not be judgmental about

756
00:37:57,036 --> 00:38:02,196
Speaker 3: is being judgmental. You give yourself permission to be judgmental

757
00:38:02,316 --> 00:38:04,036
Speaker 3: and then back away from it.

758
00:38:04,076 --> 00:38:06,716
Speaker 4: I need to be self compassionate about myself when I'm judgmental.

759
00:38:06,796 --> 00:38:10,276
Speaker 1: Thank you and so all of these since they're super helpful,

760
00:38:10,396 --> 00:38:12,316
Speaker 1: But you end your book with I think one of

761
00:38:12,396 --> 00:38:14,356
Speaker 1: the most important things that we need to do, which

762
00:38:14,396 --> 00:38:17,596
Speaker 1: is that we need to start using them first, that

763
00:38:17,636 --> 00:38:19,916
Speaker 1: we need to apply love to others first before we

764
00:38:19,916 --> 00:38:22,156
Speaker 1: can get back the love to ourselves.

765
00:38:22,556 --> 00:38:25,636
Speaker 2: Exactly, you go first, you listen, and you show curiosity.

766
00:38:25,676 --> 00:38:28,276
Speaker 2: You make the other person feel loved first. Your goal

767
00:38:28,596 --> 00:38:30,476
Speaker 2: is to make the other person feel good, not to

768
00:38:30,476 --> 00:38:32,636
Speaker 2: make yourself feel good. But the second thing I just

769
00:38:32,716 --> 00:38:35,276
Speaker 2: want to add a caveat that's really important, is that

770
00:38:35,396 --> 00:38:37,356
Speaker 2: once in a while, or maybe even more than once

771
00:38:37,396 --> 00:38:40,236
Speaker 2: in a while, you try everything and it doesn't work,

772
00:38:40,836 --> 00:38:43,596
Speaker 2: and the person still doesn't respond, and they still don't share,

773
00:38:43,876 --> 00:38:44,916
Speaker 2: and they don't reciprocate.

774
00:38:44,956 --> 00:38:47,756
Speaker 4: But reciprocity is a really powerful rule of social behavior,

775
00:38:48,316 --> 00:38:50,716
Speaker 4: very powerful. Usually it works, but once in a while

776
00:38:50,756 --> 00:38:51,276
Speaker 4: it doesn't.

777
00:38:51,716 --> 00:38:54,436
Speaker 2: And then if it doesn't, maybe that's the time to

778
00:38:54,516 --> 00:38:57,956
Speaker 2: reconsider the relationship, maybe to pause, maybe to walk away,

779
00:38:58,276 --> 00:39:00,076
Speaker 2: maybe to kind of accept it as it is. But

780
00:39:00,116 --> 00:39:01,636
Speaker 2: I did want to sort of add that so that

781
00:39:01,916 --> 00:39:04,236
Speaker 2: people understand that once in a while it's not going

782
00:39:04,316 --> 00:39:04,636
Speaker 2: to work.

783
00:39:05,036 --> 00:39:07,436
Speaker 3: Well, I would add to what Sonya said, this is

784
00:39:07,516 --> 00:39:10,236
Speaker 3: not a five minute thing. It's not that you listen

785
00:39:10,316 --> 00:39:13,196
Speaker 3: for five minutes and you say, see they're not responding

786
00:39:13,196 --> 00:39:15,796
Speaker 3: to me. It's not working. Think of it as a

787
00:39:15,836 --> 00:39:19,716
Speaker 3: long term investment where you have to do it gradually. Sometimes,

788
00:39:19,796 --> 00:39:22,676
Speaker 3: as Sonya says, other people will not respond to it.

789
00:39:23,076 --> 00:39:25,636
Speaker 3: You can make it a topic of conversation to see

790
00:39:25,636 --> 00:39:28,956
Speaker 3: if that might kickstart the process. But if that doesn't

791
00:39:28,996 --> 00:39:32,116
Speaker 3: work and it continues, maybe it's time to look elsewhere.

792
00:39:32,476 --> 00:39:34,596
Speaker 1: Any finite pieces of advice for folks who want to

793
00:39:34,596 --> 00:39:35,596
Speaker 1: feel loved a bit more.

794
00:39:35,956 --> 00:39:38,396
Speaker 2: My final word is that if you want to feel

795
00:39:38,396 --> 00:39:40,876
Speaker 2: more loved, you don't have to change yourself. You don't

796
00:39:40,916 --> 00:39:43,156
Speaker 2: have to change the other person. You just have to

797
00:39:43,276 --> 00:39:47,556
Speaker 2: change the conversation. So it is absolutely in your control.

798
00:39:47,596 --> 00:39:49,476
Speaker 2: I think that's a very very powerful message.

799
00:39:50,396 --> 00:39:51,116
Speaker 1: Love it, Harry.

800
00:39:51,676 --> 00:39:54,436
Speaker 3: I would say that prior to doing this work, I

801
00:39:54,556 --> 00:39:57,716
Speaker 3: was not a very good listener, and in particular I

802
00:39:57,836 --> 00:40:00,996
Speaker 3: was a pretty judgmental listener. And so one of the

803
00:40:01,036 --> 00:40:04,476
Speaker 3: things I've learned is to be much less judgmental and

804
00:40:04,556 --> 00:40:07,596
Speaker 3: to be much more curious about the people I'm talking to.

805
00:40:09,156 --> 00:40:12,196
Speaker 3: You'd have to ask my wife if I've been successful

806
00:40:12,236 --> 00:40:14,756
Speaker 3: at it. But it feels like it's made a big

807
00:40:14,796 --> 00:40:15,476
Speaker 3: difference to me.

808
00:40:16,596 --> 00:40:17,956
Speaker 1: Well, I have to say that reading the book has

809
00:40:17,956 --> 00:40:20,756
Speaker 1: made a big difference to me. It really does change things.

810
00:40:20,796 --> 00:40:23,596
Speaker 1: It makes conversations more fun, it makes you feel like

811
00:40:23,676 --> 00:40:25,396
Speaker 1: you matter more, and it makes you feel like you

812
00:40:25,436 --> 00:40:27,956
Speaker 1: belong more. So thank you so much for sharing all

813
00:40:27,956 --> 00:40:30,236
Speaker 1: this work with everyone and with my listeners today.

814
00:40:30,276 --> 00:40:32,036
Speaker 3: It's been delightful chatting with you, Laurie.

815
00:40:32,076 --> 00:40:33,436
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's my pleasure, Laurie.

816
00:40:33,996 --> 00:40:35,996
Speaker 1: Even though it may not feel like it. The science

817
00:40:35,996 --> 00:40:38,916
Speaker 1: shows that feeling more loved is under your control, but

818
00:40:38,956 --> 00:40:41,356
Speaker 1: we don't always know the best way to make that happen.

819
00:40:41,716 --> 00:40:44,716
Speaker 1: So if you're feeling a little underloved at this Valentine season,

820
00:40:45,036 --> 00:40:47,276
Speaker 1: why not try some of the strategies that Sonya and

821
00:40:47,316 --> 00:40:49,956
Speaker 1: Harry talked about today. You could get just a tad

822
00:40:49,996 --> 00:40:52,996
Speaker 1: more curious with a friend, or commit to recognizing your

823
00:40:53,036 --> 00:40:57,036
Speaker 1: partner's multiplicity a bit more authentically. Or why not try

824
00:40:57,116 --> 00:40:59,676
Speaker 1: a quick act of kindness to boost your connection and

825
00:40:59,756 --> 00:41:02,396
Speaker 1: your positive mood. And if you want even more research

826
00:41:02,436 --> 00:41:05,116
Speaker 1: backed advice about how to feel loved, check out Harry

827
00:41:05,196 --> 00:41:07,916
Speaker 1: and Sonya's new book, How to Feel Loved The Five

828
00:41:07,996 --> 00:41:10,876
Speaker 1: Mindsets That Get You More of What Matters Most, which

829
00:41:10,916 --> 00:41:14,036
Speaker 1: is out this week. If you have thoughts about today's

830
00:41:14,036 --> 00:41:16,436
Speaker 1: episode or the science of love generally, we'd love to

831
00:41:16,436 --> 00:41:19,236
Speaker 1: hear them. You can email us at Happiness Lab at

832
00:41:19,236 --> 00:41:21,756
Speaker 1: pushkin dot fm to tell us what you liked or

833
00:41:21,756 --> 00:41:24,436
Speaker 1: ask a question. You can also sign up to learn

834
00:41:24,436 --> 00:41:26,956
Speaker 1: more about the science of happiness and join my free

835
00:41:26,996 --> 00:41:31,436
Speaker 1: newsletter on my website, Doctor Lauri Santos dot com. That's

836
00:41:31,556 --> 00:41:35,756
Speaker 1: d R l a u ri E Santos dot com.

837
00:41:35,876 --> 00:41:38,156
Speaker 1: Coming up on next week's episode of The Happiness Lab,

838
00:41:38,316 --> 00:41:41,516
Speaker 1: we'll hear from a social scientist turned dating expert about

839
00:41:41,516 --> 00:41:42,996
Speaker 1: the right way to find your soulmate.

840
00:41:43,076 --> 00:41:47,156
Speaker 5: According to the research, if you've tried dating on apps

841
00:41:47,196 --> 00:41:50,836
Speaker 5: and there's just this big effort reward gap that's happening

842
00:41:51,316 --> 00:41:55,036
Speaker 5: where you're swiping and swiping and swiping, you're messaging, you're

843
00:41:55,116 --> 00:41:58,996
Speaker 5: rarely meeting up, and it makes sense that you're among

844
00:41:59,036 --> 00:42:02,636
Speaker 5: the seventy eight percent of online daters who report experiencing burnout.

845
00:42:03,156 --> 00:42:05,756
Speaker 1: That's the next installment in our series on the science

846
00:42:05,796 --> 00:42:14,476
Speaker 1: of love on The Happiness Lab with me Doctor Laurie Santos,