WEBVTT - Breaking the Attention Economy 0:00:04.880 --> 0:00:08.600 It's Oregon. You don't get to consent, and that's how 0:00:08.600 --> 0:00:11.920 you open up the podcast. That's right, baby, look up 0:00:11.960 --> 0:00:18.239 one party consent laws for recording recording. Um, this is 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:21.720 it could happen here a podcast about when you can 0:00:21.920 --> 0:00:26.000 legally record people without their consent. Hint always in the 0:00:26.040 --> 0:00:30.520 state of Oregon. Um. I'm Robert Evans. We're talking about 0:00:31.000 --> 0:00:33.760 bad things, good things, things that are good and bad, 0:00:33.800 --> 0:00:40.280 all that stuff. Who what do we you know what? 0:00:40.360 --> 0:00:41.599 You know what we should talk about? You know what 0:00:41.640 --> 0:00:45.240 no one has talked about ever on the internet lately. 0:00:47.080 --> 0:00:52.320 Josephine Robinette Rogan. Oh, I've never heard of him. What 0:00:52.360 --> 0:00:54.840 does he do? Well? He has a podcast. If you 0:00:54.880 --> 0:00:58.279 heard a podcast, Garrison, I'm unfamiliar, but just I'll just 0:00:58.320 --> 0:01:01.080 go with it. Yeah. Well, it's like the radio, but 0:01:01.840 --> 0:01:08.000 easier to spread disinformation. Um and also sexier for reasons 0:01:08.000 --> 0:01:12.600 that are hard to explain. Uh. And Joe Rogan gets 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:14.800 on his podcast and he says a lot of stuff 0:01:14.800 --> 0:01:17.280 that people think is bad, and then everybody gets angry 0:01:17.360 --> 0:01:19.720 at him, and then he makes more money. And today 0:01:19.760 --> 0:01:22.840 we're going to talk about how maybe we could handle 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:25.800 this problem differently. Maybe we could not do the same 0:01:25.840 --> 0:01:30.200 thing over and over. There'spech a different results. Yeah, and upfront, 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:32.960 obviously we're talking about him, We're trying to talk less 0:01:32.959 --> 0:01:35.880 about specifically what he's said and more about kind of 0:01:35.920 --> 0:01:38.280 the problem he represents in the ways in which the 0:01:38.319 --> 0:01:42.200 responses people have aren't having the results they desire. We're 0:01:42.240 --> 0:01:44.200 gonna avoid using his name in the title of the 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:46.800 episode or the description because that doesn't feed into the 0:01:46.840 --> 0:01:49.720 algorithm kind of in the same way. But yeah, Garrison, 0:01:49.760 --> 0:01:52.560 you want to kick us off here. Yeah, I've been 0:01:52.560 --> 0:01:55.840 watching the Rogan thing online be getting kind of frustrated 0:01:55.840 --> 0:01:58.720 because of the way the discourse is going, and it's 0:01:58.720 --> 0:02:01.360 just repeating the same loops we see every few months 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:05.760 and nothing really changes and Realgan just gets more popular. 0:02:05.880 --> 0:02:09.280 So earlier this month or like a middle of I 0:02:09.280 --> 0:02:12.520 guess it was closer to like January. UM, there was 0:02:12.520 --> 0:02:16.079 like a group of like two d seventy doctors, healthcare workers, UM, 0:02:16.080 --> 0:02:18.840 and scientists who are campaigning for Spotify to adopt a 0:02:18.919 --> 0:02:22.639 miss information policy. UM. This was prompted by a few 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:25.520 episodes of the Joe Rogan podcast that we've already actually 0:02:25.560 --> 0:02:29.480 talked about. UM about Dr Robert Malone and someone else 0:02:29.800 --> 0:02:36.360 who said some stupid things about the pandemic. Um, So 0:02:36.560 --> 0:02:38.359 I write what when when I when we talked about 0:02:38.360 --> 0:02:40.480 these episodes this last time, I tried to actually talk 0:02:40.520 --> 0:02:43.680 about what these doctors were doing, and let not focus 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:46.440 on Rogan himself, but specifically what these doctors were doing 0:02:46.480 --> 0:02:49.600 and their ideology, because I didn't want to add to 0:02:49.600 --> 0:02:53.360 the whole Rogan side of the discourse. Um and you know, 0:02:53.720 --> 0:02:56.519 for for this, for this, like a letter that that 0:02:56.600 --> 0:02:59.320 these doctors sent to Spotify if they were not really 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:03.160 advocating Rogan to be removed from the platform, um or 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:06.440 even for episodes to be removed, just to have Spotify 0:03:06.880 --> 0:03:11.480 clarify their guidelines regarding medical misinformation, because you know, and 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:15.120 it's important to note that Joe Rogan has a exclusivity 0:03:15.200 --> 0:03:18.280 contract with Spotify. He does not work for them, but 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:20.800 Rogan gets paid a lot of money to get his 0:03:20.840 --> 0:03:24.520 podcast only published on Spotify's feed. So it's it's not 0:03:24.600 --> 0:03:26.440 it's it's it's it's like a it's a it's a 0:03:26.480 --> 0:03:29.000 weird kind of set up, and it can give a 0:03:29.000 --> 0:03:32.320 lot of like gray area for like does Spotify count 0:03:32.320 --> 0:03:34.400 that's as publisher or not? You're like, well, not really 0:03:34.440 --> 0:03:38.040 because they could. He could also just end that contract 0:03:38.120 --> 0:03:41.040 and post his podcast everywhere. Um, I mean I think 0:03:41.040 --> 0:03:43.440 it would take there. There's probably some sort of exclusive 0:03:43.640 --> 0:03:47.680 time limit on the exclusivity agreement, etcetera. Um, because it 0:03:47.680 --> 0:03:50.200 it is, it is mixed, because they did recently when 0:03:50.240 --> 0:03:52.600 it came out that he said the N word a 0:03:52.600 --> 0:03:55.320 whole bunch of times, Spotify removed those episodes. So there's 0:03:55.320 --> 0:03:59.200 a degree to which they have acted as a publisher. Yeah, 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:01.440 there's a whole of stuff to kind of talk about 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:04.560 this on the So the letter gwent kind of viral 0:04:04.760 --> 0:04:06.720 and it prompted this whole kind of thing in the 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:10.880 middle of January, but like deleting your Spotify subscription, and 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:15.520 then we had musicians, most uh, most popularly Neil Young 0:04:15.840 --> 0:04:19.120 decided to remove all their music from the Spotify platform, 0:04:19.240 --> 0:04:22.159 um as like a performative thing, being like, Okay, if 0:04:22.160 --> 0:04:25.000 Spotify is gonna host all this medical misinformation, we're going 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:27.680 to remove this as protest. Now. Of course, Neil Young 0:04:27.760 --> 0:04:32.040 then just signed an exclusivity deal with Amazon, so oh great, cool. 0:04:32.720 --> 0:04:37.479 We yes, Amazon, the bastion of moral purity. Yeah, and 0:04:37.520 --> 0:04:39.840 they're not I mean I think they are probably pay 0:04:39.839 --> 0:04:42.200 a better rate because Spotify is pretty much at the 0:04:42.200 --> 0:04:45.080 bottom to musicians. But I don't think it's good. Um, 0:04:46.120 --> 0:04:49.159 I think Napster actually has the best rate, doesn't the 0:04:49.160 --> 0:04:51.360 best rate, which I mean also like if you want 0:04:51.360 --> 0:04:53.839 to be actually moral, just just just use band camp. 0:04:54.200 --> 0:04:56.719 But I mean I use Spotify because it's really easy. 0:04:56.760 --> 0:04:58.760 And that's why Spotify works. It's because it's super it 0:04:58.920 --> 0:05:01.280 is it is a well made product. That does not 0:05:01.400 --> 0:05:03.680 mean it's an ethical product, but it does. It does 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:06.320 the thing that it's supposed to do quite well. So 0:05:06.320 --> 0:05:09.560 so yeah, it basically we've had endless discourse since then 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:13.160 about Joe Rogan about Spotify is the platform, talking about 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:15.599 how bad Spotify is, which yes, it is bad, talking 0:05:15.640 --> 0:05:18.200 about how you know how bad Joe Rogan is, and 0:05:18.320 --> 0:05:20.320 you know, the thing is, Joe Rogan already had the 0:05:20.360 --> 0:05:24.240 most popular podcast in the world his exclusivity deal with Spotify, 0:05:24.279 --> 0:05:27.200 and he's currently estimated to bring in eleven million listeners 0:05:27.240 --> 0:05:31.839 per episode of his podcast. Yeah. For for some reference, um, 0:05:31.880 --> 0:05:36.000 Behind the Bastards is one of the largest podcasts out there. Um, 0:05:36.040 --> 0:05:38.960 and he's on average something like ten times our traffic. Uh, 0:05:39.320 --> 0:05:41.680 like it's and it's not He's not He's not just 0:05:41.720 --> 0:05:45.600 the most popular podcast. He helped invent what podcasting is. 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:48.200 Podcast He was one of the first, and like he 0:05:48.279 --> 0:05:51.920 had a foundational role in how the entire industry works. 0:06:02.200 --> 0:06:04.000 Since this letter and since the's episodes, there's been a 0:06:04.040 --> 0:06:07.160 whole lot of discourse around if Spotify should remove Joe 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:10.040 Rogan from the platform, um, if they should cancel his deal. 0:06:10.080 --> 0:06:11.440 You know, a lot of people calling on Spotify to 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:13.000 do that, a lot of people calling on Spotify to 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:16.880 remove certain episodes, and Spotify has not been keen to so. Like, 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:19.880 but let's and I know, Joe Rogan himself did actually 0:06:20.000 --> 0:06:22.520 authorize the removal of a certain amount of episodes, which 0:06:22.520 --> 0:06:25.760 for reasons we'll talk about later. Um, but what's all 0:06:25.800 --> 0:06:29.200 this discourse and outrage and articles and tweets actually doing 0:06:29.240 --> 0:06:32.599 to Spotify into Rogan? Okay? In my opinion, kind of 0:06:32.640 --> 0:06:35.159 the end result is actually very similar to all of 0:06:35.160 --> 0:06:38.080 the free advertising that companies get whenever they make awoke 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:41.360 statement that infuriate, that infuriates the actionary right, you know, 0:06:42.080 --> 0:06:44.880 resulting in throwing your kel out your window, flushing your 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:48.040 Gillette blade down the toilet, and burning your nikes. Um. 0:06:48.080 --> 0:06:50.040 And it's even widely speculated and kind of like a 0:06:50.120 --> 0:06:53.839 known fact that companies will use progressive statements and policies 0:06:54.120 --> 0:06:57.480 to drum up this outrage um to give their company 0:06:57.480 --> 0:06:59.920 and product tons of free advertising and just to get 0:07:00.000 --> 0:07:03.680 a brand name itself inside consumers heads. And this is 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:06.719 definitely happening. Was was Roken and Spotify in terms of 0:07:06.960 --> 0:07:11.400 outrage being used as advertising. It may not be intentional, 0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:14.520 but that is what the result is. Yeah, and it's 0:07:15.160 --> 0:07:19.720 I mean, it's very uh, it's it's both sides like 0:07:19.800 --> 0:07:21.920 to make fun of the other for doing this, like 0:07:21.960 --> 0:07:23.360 folks on the left like to make funt of their 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:26.680 right when they're when they're breaking their carriggs or whatever. Um. 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:30.720 But you know, it happens. It's equally profitable for both sides. 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:32.560 You just do the opposite. You know, you have someone 0:07:32.600 --> 0:07:34.600 come on and talk about how they're a truth teller 0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:37.880 being canceled, and they get a bunch of attention money, 0:07:37.960 --> 0:07:42.400 and and it works equally well both ways. Pretty much. Yeah, 0:07:42.520 --> 0:07:45.400 So with Spotify and Rogan in the news every day 0:07:45.480 --> 0:07:49.000 for the past like three weeks, the the the end 0:07:49.280 --> 0:07:52.040 is that like the fact that it's just that people 0:07:52.040 --> 0:07:54.120 are hearing these names in their head more often, and 0:07:54.160 --> 0:07:58.000 they're probably subconsciously going to use Spotify more often because 0:07:58.400 --> 0:08:01.280 you know, despite a few people that might canceled their subscriptions, 0:08:01.440 --> 0:08:03.280 the net effect will be more listeners who seemed to 0:08:03.280 --> 0:08:06.720 Spotify because there because the name is in my subconscious 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:08.960 it's it's it's in there. And all the effect that's 0:08:09.000 --> 0:08:11.000 going to have on Rogan is giving him away more 0:08:11.040 --> 0:08:14.120 publicity to attract new listeners, and and it's listeners who 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:17.720 themselves are like attracted to unconventional ideas outside the mainstream, 0:08:17.760 --> 0:08:20.320 and his more passive listeners are gonna like double down 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:22.679 on him because there's gonna be like the backfire effect, 0:08:23.040 --> 0:08:25.640 so they will like feel defensive and then become more 0:08:25.680 --> 0:08:27.880 of a fan of his because he's seen as a 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:30.600 cultural outsider, even though he's not an outsider. He is 0:08:30.640 --> 0:08:33.240 the mainstream, he's the biggest podcaster in the world, but 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:35.840 he's seen as a cultural outsider. So you know, he 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:38.320 like brings on guests who say things that they're not 0:08:38.360 --> 0:08:41.120 supposed to say. You know, so who's actually going to 0:08:41.200 --> 0:08:43.840 be convinced by all this outrage to not listen to 0:08:43.960 --> 0:08:46.480 Rogan via pointing out all the wrong things he's said 0:08:46.480 --> 0:08:48.920 and all the slurs he's used, Like, is that really 0:08:48.960 --> 0:08:52.400 going to stop fans from listening to Joe Rogan's time? 0:08:52.440 --> 0:08:56.439 Really pointing out that Donald Trump illegally took classified documents, 0:08:56.520 --> 0:08:58.880 It's like, yeah, I mean that's fucked up and ship, 0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:01.040 but like he's never gonna get charged with crimes and 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:03.839 none of his supporters care. You're the only people who 0:09:03.840 --> 0:09:06.440 are angry about this, and it doesn't matter because the 0:09:06.480 --> 0:09:08.400 people you vote for aren't going to punish him. So 0:09:08.480 --> 0:09:11.760 like just yeah, you know, chill out a little bit. 0:09:12.280 --> 0:09:15.400 It's like all of the outrage is simply inflating the 0:09:15.440 --> 0:09:19.400 importance of Jarrogan on like an entire cultural level. It's 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:22.360 that he's becoming He's becoming more important to his fans, 0:09:22.400 --> 0:09:25.080 more important to his haters, and more important to himself 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:28.480 and Spotify as an asset because he generates a lot 0:09:28.520 --> 0:09:31.000 of exclusive listeners and news coverage and buzz around the 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:34.960 Spotify brand. And it's important to talk about. Like, so 0:09:35.040 --> 0:09:40.200 you have, broadly speaking within the field of entertainment, like 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:43.079 digital entertainment in particular, you have like two ways that 0:09:43.160 --> 0:09:46.840 you can grow your audience. One of them is organic growth, 0:09:46.880 --> 0:09:50.560 which is you know, I listened to Garrison's podcast. I 0:09:50.640 --> 0:09:53.560 like it. I tell a friend about Garrison's podcast. They 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:55.600 like it. They tell a friend about Garrett that that's 0:09:55.640 --> 0:09:58.160 like organic, you know, it's very natural. That's purely the 0:09:58.480 --> 0:10:02.080 kind of quality of the content UM reaching people. And 0:10:02.080 --> 0:10:04.080 then there is in organic growth, which is can be 0:10:04.120 --> 0:10:06.760 the result of like ad campaigns can be the result 0:10:06.960 --> 0:10:10.280 of UM an algorithm. Often in today we're talking about 0:10:10.320 --> 0:10:13.960 like oh, Twitter or Facebook prioritizes this kind of content. 0:10:14.040 --> 0:10:16.400 So like something article on bright Barred about black on 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:19.200 white crime that would have been read ten thousand times 0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:21.320 ten years ago gets read a million times because it 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:24.440 spreads well on this platform for reasons that aren't organic. 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:30.200 UM And with Joe Rogan, one of the reasons why 0:10:30.200 --> 0:10:32.360 because we can talk about like d platforming. If you 0:10:32.360 --> 0:10:35.280 want to talk about like Alex Jones for example, or Meloianopolis, 0:10:35.280 --> 0:10:38.280 good case that D platforming really reduced both of their reaches. Now, 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:42.280 Milo uh pretty much wiped out as a person who 0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:45.800 mattered in terms of the discourse, thank christ. Alex Jones 0:10:45.920 --> 0:10:48.400 less so. UM it definitely hurt his business and it 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:51.600 reduced his reach. But by the time Facebook and Twitter 0:10:51.640 --> 0:10:55.160 and whatnot started throttling him, he'd he had already inorganically 0:10:55.160 --> 0:10:57.680 increased his reach enough that like he's able to he 0:10:57.720 --> 0:11:00.320 had he had a large a large enough audios to 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:03.320 stay somewhat relevant and keep going. The thing about Joe 0:11:03.360 --> 0:11:07.640 Rogan is he did not get famous and popular and organically. 0:11:07.679 --> 0:11:09.440 I'm sure there was some degree of that on like 0:11:09.559 --> 0:11:12.800 social media, but most of his growth before that, Like 0:11:12.960 --> 0:11:15.600 people like him, Like whatever you think of him, he's 0:11:15.600 --> 0:11:17.960 a good broadcaster. That's that's the thing. Even though, like 0:11:18.000 --> 0:11:20.640 you know, for all this research, I don't like him. 0:11:20.679 --> 0:11:22.920 He says horrible things, but you know, I was watching 0:11:22.960 --> 0:11:26.559 I watched all of like Rogan's like, um, like Instagram 0:11:26.600 --> 0:11:28.839 videos he made like a few ten minute things talking 0:11:28.840 --> 0:11:31.680 about the outrage, and it's it sucks because when you 0:11:31.720 --> 0:11:34.000 listen to him, he's like a really good talker. He's 0:11:34.160 --> 0:11:36.439 very good at what he does. He's very good at 0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:40.360 like generating sympathy and generating like good Like it's it 0:11:40.480 --> 0:11:42.800 sucks because yeah, I wanted to like hate this person, 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:44.680 but I'm like listening to him talking about this issue 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:47.520 like oh wow, yeah, like you actually have a decent 0:11:47.559 --> 0:11:50.840 grasp on what's going on here. Um, And that's that's horrible. 0:11:50.960 --> 0:11:53.440 He is not part of He gets some of his 0:11:53.480 --> 0:11:57.920 money from playing like a dumb, chill, stoner dude, but 0:11:58.000 --> 0:12:00.160 he's not dumb. He's definitely a stoner. He's not a 0:12:00.240 --> 0:12:02.440 dumb man. He's very intell. He's very good at what 0:12:02.480 --> 0:12:04.920 he does. UM. One of the things we don't kind 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:06.760 of talk about enough when we talk about media that 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:10.720 I think is important to note is that UM being 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:15.480 likable in a professional sense is a skill. And it's 0:12:15.520 --> 0:12:18.480 a skill like any technical skill. It's like knowing how 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:21.080 to how to how to farm or weld. UM. It 0:12:21.200 --> 0:12:23.480 is a thing that you build on over time. It 0:12:23.559 --> 0:12:27.040 is a thing that UM takes a lot of trial 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:30.600 and error and a lot of education to get right. Uh. 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:32.480 It is a thing that Joe Rogan has been doing 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:35.480 for longer than a significant chunk of the people on 0:12:35.480 --> 0:12:38.839 this show, including Garrison, have been alive. Uh. It's like 0:12:38.840 --> 0:12:40.679 like I've been like this is this is more or 0:12:40.720 --> 0:12:42.760 less been my job for like thirteen or fourteen years. 0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:45.520 And it is like a skill that you build. And 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:47.800 the thing that he is really good at is making 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:50.120 people want to listen to him. And so if you 0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:53.960 were to say kick him out of Spotify, tomorrow. It's 0:12:54.080 --> 0:12:57.520 it's entirely possible that his that that would increase the 0:12:57.600 --> 0:13:00.000 number of people who who listen to the podcast. There's 0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:02.760 there's a case to be made that Spotify has limited 0:13:02.800 --> 0:13:06.080 his maximum adi and limiting him to Spotify as opposed 0:13:06.080 --> 0:13:07.920 to if he was just any app he wanted to 0:13:07.960 --> 0:13:10.240 be on, maybe it'd be twenty million you know, listening 0:13:10.240 --> 0:13:12.640 to every exactly. Yes, Like even if did even a 0:13:12.679 --> 0:13:15.640 Spotify did drop him because of all these you know, 0:13:15.720 --> 0:13:17.880 outrage you know, and all the tweets and they're all 0:13:17.920 --> 0:13:20.280 of the petitions, even if they did drop him, he 0:13:20.280 --> 0:13:23.040 would probably not only gain more listeners due to the 0:13:23.040 --> 0:13:26.400 outrage porn and and free speech advocates, but also with 0:13:26.480 --> 0:13:29.760 his exclusivity ending help his podcast will just be available 0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:32.280 in more platforms and more people who will to listen 0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:35.520 to him, like really easily. So yeah, he's only going 0:13:35.559 --> 0:13:38.040 to grow if people get what they want. And like 0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:42.160 that makes you think, like this, this outrage isn't actually 0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:45.240 meant to get the Joe Rogan Joe Rogan problem taking 0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:47.720 care of it, Like it's this, this actually isn't about 0:13:47.720 --> 0:13:52.080 stopping misinformation. It's this this isn't actually about having they're 0:13:52.120 --> 0:13:55.000 being less fans of Joe Rogan. All of his outrage 0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:57.840 is about making you feel better because you feel like 0:13:57.840 --> 0:14:01.160 you're doing something right, Like bad thing is happening in 0:14:01.200 --> 0:14:04.800 the world, and it's easier to pretend like your actions 0:14:04.800 --> 0:14:06.800 are hurting it than it is to accept that, like 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:10.000 maybe there's nothing I can do about this right now. Yeah, 0:14:10.040 --> 0:14:12.360 it would be a really nice world if the Tarrogan 0:14:12.440 --> 0:14:16.080 problem could be solved so easily by Spotify dropping his 0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:19.040 exclusivity deal, right that would that would be great, But 0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:21.320 that's not the world we live in. And tricking yourself 0:14:21.320 --> 0:14:24.520 into thinking that is just kind of delusional. Um, and 0:14:24.560 --> 0:14:26.480 like yeah, it makes you feel better, but like that's 0:14:26.520 --> 0:14:29.320 not actually helping because like, yeah, we can obviously compare 0:14:29.360 --> 0:14:31.640 this to other like D platform and campaigns with people 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:33.960 for like Alex Jones, but you know, Jones was way 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:36.440 more niche and way more extreme around the time of 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:40.440 his like D platforming campaign, and his campaign wasn't about 0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:43.360 ending exclusivity deals. It was about getting him off of 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:47.240 popular platforms altogether. And that's not happening with Joe Rogan 0:14:47.440 --> 0:14:49.600 because Joe Rogan isn't saying the things that are going 0:14:49.600 --> 0:14:52.080 to get him booted from platforms. He's smart, he knows 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:54.800 what he can and cannot say. He's not He's not 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:58.200 dumb enough to get banned from these platforms, right, and also, 0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:00.400 you know, he's a giant financial asset, so they wouldn't 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:03.280 ben him anyway. But like he's he's What he's doing 0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:06.680 is it's bringing on people who say horrible things to 0:15:06.840 --> 0:15:10.240 continue a cultural conversation, which gives him in the headlines 0:15:10.320 --> 0:15:12.320 and gives a platform like Spotify a whole bunch of 0:15:12.360 --> 0:15:14.200 room to cry free speech and get away with it. 0:15:14.600 --> 0:15:16.600 Removing Alex Jones could be seen as like a monetary 0:15:16.600 --> 0:15:20.160 decision in and of itself, because it is actually removing liability. 0:15:20.440 --> 0:15:24.160 But this is this isn't really the case for Rogan. Yeah, 0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:28.280 and he's um, yeah, it's just not. One of the 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:31.400 problems is that this kind of does fly in the 0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:35.440 face of a lot of what people want to think. 0:15:35.480 --> 0:15:37.120 And I don't want to be making the case that 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:38.960 it's as black and white as it is, because, for example, 0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:41.240 I'm not saying that it was bad for someone to 0:15:41.400 --> 0:15:43.440 go through the effort of finding and pointing out, Hey, 0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:45.760 there's like seventy episodes where Joe Rogan drops the N 0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:48.520 word um and getting those pulls. I don't think that 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:53.120 I think that that was broadly speaking, a productive thing. 0:15:53.760 --> 0:15:57.400 But keeping Joe Rogan at the forefront of the outrage 0:15:57.440 --> 0:15:59.880 cycle is doing nothing but printing money for the guy. 0:16:00.320 --> 0:16:02.520 And that's that's not an easy thing to deal with 0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:03.920 because it's like, do you want me to just like 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:07.840 stay quiet in the face of injustice? And it's like, no, 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:09.640 that's not what I want you to do. But I 0:16:09.720 --> 0:16:12.520 do want you to recognize that there are times in 0:16:12.600 --> 0:16:15.920 ways of speaking up that are just yes, putting putting 0:16:15.920 --> 0:16:19.320 gasoline on an injustice fire. It's it's important to remember 0:16:19.360 --> 0:16:22.440 that d platform ng is just a tactic and and 0:16:22.600 --> 0:16:26.000 single tactics aren't always effective in every situation. That's what 0:16:26.120 --> 0:16:28.200 makes them a tactic, right, Like, in order for a 0:16:28.240 --> 0:16:31.200 tactic to work, you need to understand the scenario that's 0:16:31.200 --> 0:16:33.880 are applying the tactic to and seeing if that tactic 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:36.280 achieves the goal. And if it doesn't, great, but if 0:16:36.280 --> 0:16:38.680 it doesn't, you need to choose other tactic and stop 0:16:38.720 --> 0:16:41.000 doing the same thing over and over again and expecting 0:16:41.000 --> 0:16:43.600 a new result. And this is one of those situations 0:16:43.640 --> 0:16:46.440 where like when you bring up, hey, maybe nothing might 0:16:46.480 --> 0:16:48.520 be the best thing, at least for for most people 0:16:48.520 --> 0:16:51.280 specifically to do. Like, the thing that gets brought up 0:16:51.360 --> 0:16:54.600 is like, well do you not want me to uh? 0:16:54.680 --> 0:16:57.040 Or like, well, what do you suggest I do? Like 0:16:57.360 --> 0:16:59.040 you know, you're saying I shouldn't do this, but you're 0:16:59.080 --> 0:17:00.960 not telling me what to do. It's like, well, it's 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:04.040 like if somebody gets shot in the leg and one 0:17:04.080 --> 0:17:06.320 person has a tourniquet and the other person has a 0:17:06.320 --> 0:17:07.960 bunch of razor blades that they want to throw in 0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:10.520 their eyes, and it's like, well, what do you want 0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:12.240 me to do? All I have is these razor blades. 0:17:12.240 --> 0:17:13.960 This is the only other thing I can do? Then 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:15.640 just stand by and do nothing. And it's like, well, 0:17:15.640 --> 0:17:18.080 in this case, doing nothing is the best thing to do, 0:17:18.119 --> 0:17:21.960 because it's it's not that's not going to help the problem. 0:17:22.280 --> 0:17:25.360 Boycotts of this scale kind of only tend to benefit 0:17:25.480 --> 0:17:28.399 brands and businesses right like, because if if if the 0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:30.879 brand of business is a person is smaller in more 0:17:30.960 --> 0:17:33.320 niche like and say like Alex Jones or Richard Spencer, 0:17:33.440 --> 0:17:37.520 right then yes, these tactics about boycotts can really work 0:17:37.560 --> 0:17:40.359 to push things out of the cultural like market and 0:17:40.400 --> 0:17:42.199 also in some cases in terms of businesses like the 0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:45.800 literal market, but when you're dealing with things like Target, Nike, 0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:49.119 and Joe Rogan, that's not the case because those brands 0:17:49.119 --> 0:17:51.760 are way too big. Any any you know, any conservative 0:17:51.760 --> 0:17:54.520 boycott against Target isn't going to have that effect. It 0:17:54.520 --> 0:17:57.359 will probably make weird liberals be like, Oh, I'm gonna 0:17:57.400 --> 0:18:00.600 go to Target now because the conservative still want me to. 0:18:01.200 --> 0:18:05.359 It's so like it's I don't it's not it's it's like, 0:18:05.440 --> 0:18:07.680 it's the problem is. It's like Joe Rogan himself isn't 0:18:07.680 --> 0:18:09.560 really the problem either. You know. A lot of the 0:18:09.600 --> 0:18:12.280 problem can be seen more as like content algorithms that 0:18:12.320 --> 0:18:16.560 boost and reward misinformation and disinformation and conspiracism. And that's 0:18:16.560 --> 0:18:18.880 more of like an actual issue at hand here. Joe 0:18:18.920 --> 0:18:21.120 Rogan is just a business. That's how he hears about 0:18:21.119 --> 0:18:23.920 a lot of these people. Yeah, I go viral somewhere else. 0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:26.320 And in a lot of cases, it's an inorganic thing 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:28.200 that brings them in front of them. It's some fucking 0:18:28.240 --> 0:18:30.240 algorithm that and and that is a case where you 0:18:30.280 --> 0:18:32.399 can target and work on deep exacting and it can 0:18:32.400 --> 0:18:35.000 be more productive that that. That was That was what 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:37.160 that was what I was getting at. It's like Joe 0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:39.679 Joe Rogan himself was just a visible outgrowth of the 0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:42.720 core problem. And the core problem is these things getting 0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:45.159 onto his show in the first place. So yeah, we 0:18:45.200 --> 0:18:47.200 can't stop his show, but maybe we should do more 0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:50.080 work to prevent to like figure out ways to do 0:18:50.240 --> 0:18:53.320 you know, start using these tactics to prevent algorithms from 0:18:53.320 --> 0:18:55.720 boosting these things so that Joe Roken sees them and 0:18:55.720 --> 0:18:58.679 then and then invites them on. And yeah, that's a 0:18:58.720 --> 0:19:02.040 lot more work than just being angry at Spotify. And 0:19:02.119 --> 0:19:04.160 yet maybe it will actually do something. And one thing 0:19:04.200 --> 0:19:06.760 that can do something is with spot and it won't 0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:10.240 work if it's just Spotify. But I am one of 0:19:10.240 --> 0:19:12.879 those people who thinks that maybe it's not the worst 0:19:12.880 --> 0:19:16.479 thing if things like Spotify are seen as publishers and 0:19:16.520 --> 0:19:19.600 thus when they spread misinformation that leads to disaster as 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:23.840 health consequences, um, they can be held liable. Right. Uh, 0:19:23.880 --> 0:19:26.399 that's not the worst possible change, although it is a 0:19:26.400 --> 0:19:28.640 problematic one. I don't want to like boil that down 0:19:28.640 --> 0:19:31.760 to a simple question, but I think that's an avenue 0:19:31.800 --> 0:19:35.120 that should be explored because I don't see that there's 0:19:35.119 --> 0:19:38.320 a lot of difference in Spotify choosing to let something 0:19:38.359 --> 0:19:42.920 go to air or the New York Times printing misinformation. UM. 0:19:43.000 --> 0:19:45.080 And in fact, Spotify is going to reach more people 0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:48.200 because nobody cares what the New York Times says anymore. Yeah, 0:19:48.400 --> 0:19:52.280 so Spotify. The Spotify CEO did kind of address the 0:19:52.320 --> 0:19:57.400 ongoing controversy around the you know, internal publishing stuff and 0:19:57.480 --> 0:20:00.760 how they view medical misinformation. UM. They do adopt a 0:20:00.800 --> 0:20:04.720 clarified policy that prohibits content that promotes dangerous, false, or 0:20:04.840 --> 0:20:09.439 dangerous deceptive medical information which may cause offline harm or 0:20:09.560 --> 0:20:12.720 pose a direct threat to public health. UM. And then 0:20:12.800 --> 0:20:15.320 the Post also announced that the Spotify would add content 0:20:15.359 --> 0:20:18.919 advisories to any content related to COVID on the platform, 0:20:19.560 --> 0:20:23.160 Twitter and Instagram have no, it's not, it's not, it's 0:20:23.160 --> 0:20:26.359