WEBVTT - Is American Pop Culture The WORST It’s Ever Been? 0:00:03.400 --> 0:00:06.440 Hello there, Happy Thursday to you. Chuck Todt here with 0:00:06.480 --> 0:00:08.800 another episode of the Chuck Podcast. Thank you for watching 0:00:08.880 --> 0:00:12.240 on YouTube. If you're watching on YouTube, be sure you've subscribed. 0:00:12.720 --> 0:00:15.600 Like and subscribe. We like those things. Appreciate you those 0:00:15.640 --> 0:00:19.880 that are listening on the original way that many people 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:23.279 listen to podcasts, good old fashioned audio on your phones, 0:00:23.400 --> 0:00:26.480 in your cars, wherever you're listening to this much appreciated. 0:00:26.760 --> 0:00:29.479 We are taping just before this is we are in 0:00:29.520 --> 0:00:31.200 the run up to Memorial Day weekend. And let me 0:00:31.200 --> 0:00:32.800 give you a little bit a hint about Memorial Day 0:00:32.800 --> 0:00:37.159 weekend in Washington, particularly in the odd numbered years. So 0:00:37.240 --> 0:00:39.120 we're in the middle of this mess right now, right 0:00:39.120 --> 0:00:42.040 House Republicans, they set an artificial deadline. 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:43.519 Which they may miss. 0:00:43.760 --> 0:00:45.880 You know, Mike Johnson wanted to get the one big 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:50.280 beautiful bill, basically Trump's Trump's Agenda Bill, right, you know, 0:00:50.320 --> 0:00:53.480 at this point we're governing in this horrendous process. Now 0:00:53.760 --> 0:00:56.520 one party gets control of everything for a couple of years. 0:00:56.760 --> 0:00:59.640 So they like, let's make the kitchen sink bill. It 0:00:59.680 --> 0:01:02.320 was what Build back Better was what Joe Biden's Kitchen 0:01:02.360 --> 0:01:05.120 Sink Bill was called. This one kitchen sink bill is 0:01:05.200 --> 0:01:08.080 one big, beautiful bill. It's officially called this right, but 0:01:08.120 --> 0:01:12.319 it's really the partisan kitchen sink bill. And what have 0:01:12.360 --> 0:01:16.240 we learned about partisan kitchen sink bills. They're not they 0:01:16.280 --> 0:01:20.399 will they'll eventually pass. It just depends on how much 0:01:20.520 --> 0:01:23.240 crap you have to put in or take out in 0:01:23.319 --> 0:01:25.200 order to get it to pass. There used to be 0:01:25.480 --> 0:01:27.920 a great saying in Washington, if you can't get a 0:01:27.959 --> 0:01:31.480 bill in Congress pass make it bigger. Meaning because back 0:01:31.520 --> 0:01:34.880 in the days when you actually when everybody was transactional, 0:01:34.959 --> 0:01:38.960 not just in partisan transactional natures, but literally across the aisle, 0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:41.440 you could buy votes anytime you want it. All right, 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:43.640 let's build this in that district. We'll get his vote. 0:01:43.680 --> 0:01:46.640 Let's do this over here. He needs my vote for 0:01:46.680 --> 0:01:49.080 his bill. I'll give him that if he gives me mind. 0:01:49.080 --> 0:01:51.840 For you know, that old fashioned way of making a 0:01:51.880 --> 0:01:55.800 congressional bill was the way it worked when there was bipartisanship. 0:01:55.840 --> 0:01:57.680 If you didn't, if you couldn't get a bill passed, 0:01:57.680 --> 0:02:00.360 make it bigger. But ever since we went to this 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:05.040 partisan governance. Right, it basically started with the Clinton era. 0:02:06.000 --> 0:02:06.200 Right. 0:02:07.200 --> 0:02:10.120 Clinton had a little bit of Republican support every now 0:02:10.120 --> 0:02:12.000 and then early on, but he was mostly having to 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:15.280 do his first two years he had full democratic control. 0:02:15.360 --> 0:02:17.880 It was partisan George W. Bush, same thing. 0:02:18.400 --> 0:02:20.320 He had a fifty to fifty Senate, so he didn't 0:02:20.320 --> 0:02:22.720 have to work with a couple of Democrats every now 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:27.040 and then. Barack Obama went it alone. Trump's gone it alone. 0:02:27.080 --> 0:02:28.920 This is the second time he's done it. And of 0:02:28.960 --> 0:02:31.160 course Biden went it alone. And so when you move 0:02:31.240 --> 0:02:36.000 into this this stuff, you end up. Look, you make 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:39.520 legislation that is harder to keep permanent for what it's worth, 0:02:40.240 --> 0:02:42.200 makes it easier. And you see what they're doing now. 0:02:42.280 --> 0:02:45.360 I think Republicans are trying to repeal pieces of Biden's 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:49.080 bill in order to pay for theirs. Democrats, when they 0:02:49.080 --> 0:02:51.240 get controlled, just do the same thing, right in two 0:02:51.320 --> 0:02:54.760 years or four years. It is it's no way to govern, 0:02:54.880 --> 0:02:56.240 it's no way to run the country. It's how what 0:02:56.240 --> 0:02:59.839 the voters want, whether the voters like like a piece 0:02:59.840 --> 0:03:03.680 of legislation or not. It's the whiplash that eventually creates exhaustion. 0:03:03.840 --> 0:03:08.359 So look, it's the reality. And so what does that mean? 0:03:08.440 --> 0:03:10.960 Does John Here's what I will tell you. You're going 0:03:11.040 --> 0:03:13.880 to see dramatic headlines over the next You might see 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:16.160 more dramatic headlines in the next twenty four hours, forty hours, 0:03:16.160 --> 0:03:19.000 seventy two hours. So it so it's not there, and oh, 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:21.799 they've doomed the bill, and it may be possible that 0:03:21.919 --> 0:03:24.280 Johnson has to let him go fly home for the 0:03:24.320 --> 0:03:26.959 Memorial Day recess and they deal with this for when 0:03:26.960 --> 0:03:29.440 they come back. Remember how many times Joe Biden's Build 0:03:29.480 --> 0:03:33.080 Back Better Bill died and then was resuscitated. Joe Manchin 0:03:33.440 --> 0:03:34.720 at the end of the day killed it, and then 0:03:34.720 --> 0:03:36.920 he came back and revived it. You see where I'm 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:39.480 going here. The point is this bill is going to pass. 0:03:40.080 --> 0:03:42.920 We just didn't quite know when it is going to pass. 0:03:43.480 --> 0:03:46.760 There is one or two Republicans that are comfortable voting 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:49.040 against it, but no one's going to be comfortable being 0:03:49.080 --> 0:03:52.040 the vote that kills it. Right, Thomas Massey can get 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:53.840 away with he's doing because he's not the vote that 0:03:53.920 --> 0:03:56.960 kills it. And maybe in Andy Harrison, Maryland, or maybe 0:03:57.000 --> 0:04:00.680 one other two others can join. You know, however, whatever 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:03.480 they're padding is, they'll allow two or three to throw 0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:06.000 their temper tantrums and they can vote against it. But 0:04:06.080 --> 0:04:08.920 nobody will be willing trust me to be the vote 0:04:08.960 --> 0:04:10.840 that kills it. No matter how much they don't like 0:04:10.880 --> 0:04:12.760 the Medicaid cuts, no matter how much they don't like 0:04:12.800 --> 0:04:15.800 the salt caps, it won't matter. 0:04:15.920 --> 0:04:16.599 This will pass. 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:19.440 So this is one of those moments where back in 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:22.159 my old days with I sit here and roll my eyes. 0:04:22.200 --> 0:04:25.040 I'm like, all right, I know there's this assumption that 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:28.359 we should cover this and take the debate seriously, but 0:04:28.440 --> 0:04:31.280 we know the endgame here and do we really want 0:04:31.320 --> 0:04:33.440 to pay how much? How much do we want to 0:04:33.480 --> 0:04:37.039 waste the viewer's time on this sausage. Sometimes it's worth 0:04:37.080 --> 0:04:39.160 it and sometimes it isn't. Here's what I'll tell you 0:04:39.240 --> 0:04:42.560 on this one. It isn't worth it. I'm going to 0:04:42.600 --> 0:04:45.919 give you the shortcut on that. So look, this thing's 0:04:45.960 --> 0:04:48.480 going to pass my guest today, and I think it's 0:04:48.480 --> 0:04:49.440 a perfect memorial. 0:04:49.520 --> 0:04:50.280 They we can right. 0:04:50.520 --> 0:04:52.800 This is the weekend that we kick off where some 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:56.520 people start to start to, you know, have find their 0:04:56.560 --> 0:04:58.560 books for the summer that they want to read their 0:04:58.560 --> 0:05:00.880 fiction books. Maybe they've got to new album they're going 0:05:00.920 --> 0:05:03.920 to download, Maybe there's a new TV series or some 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:07.400 movies they're going to be well, My guest is Spencer Cornaber, 0:05:07.400 --> 0:05:10.599 and he wrote this terrific piece in the Atlantic, having 0:05:10.720 --> 0:05:14.200 you Know about you know is basically it's it's, frankly, 0:05:14.240 --> 0:05:17.679 something that's written about every ten years. 0:05:17.800 --> 0:05:19.440 Why does pop culture suck? You know? 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:24.560 Some form of that conversation? You know, it's worse than ever, right, nobody, 0:05:24.760 --> 0:05:26.800 And it's one of those things where I'm and you'll 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:28.719 hear this in the conversation that Spencer and I have, 0:05:29.880 --> 0:05:33.440 where you know, we always miss the good old days 0:05:33.480 --> 0:05:35.320 of something, you know, maybe it's the good old days 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:38.640 of radio. I will you'll hear me whine about music. 0:05:39.560 --> 0:05:42.159 I hate what algorithms have done to new music, and 0:05:42.200 --> 0:05:44.560 you'll hear me go off on that. But there's another 0:05:44.600 --> 0:05:49.839 part of culture that I think is that, you know, 0:05:49.839 --> 0:05:52.000 we're in the middle of real culture wars. We've been 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:55.599 in a sort of culture cold war between the two 0:05:55.600 --> 0:05:58.560 parties now for most of the twenty first century. Right 0:05:59.000 --> 0:06:01.440 Steve Bannon is fond of saying that politics is downstream 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:04.800 from culture. The fact is it is all sort of 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:08.960 next right, you know, if you think about it. Our presidents, 0:06:09.080 --> 0:06:12.000 ever since the television age, or really the radio age 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:17.880 with FDR, our presidents have become cultural figures. Some want 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:20.440 to be in cultural figures and some do not, but 0:06:20.480 --> 0:06:25.160 that doesn't mean they all don't become one. Eisenhower strikes 0:06:25.160 --> 0:06:27.599 me as somebody who was uncomfortable being a part of 0:06:27.600 --> 0:06:28.080 the culture. 0:06:28.120 --> 0:06:29.760 But John Kennedy, I think, loved it. 0:06:30.279 --> 0:06:33.560 Richard Nixon loved it, even if he didn't like how 0:06:33.560 --> 0:06:36.720 the culture was treating him, if you will. But he's 0:06:36.720 --> 0:06:39.400 a guy that did the Went On laugh In, which 0:06:39.480 --> 0:06:41.840 was Saturday Night Live before there was Saturday Night Live. 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:46.839 So and of course Ronald Reagan came from Hollywood into politics. 0:06:46.839 --> 0:06:50.360 So look, the fact is culture and politics. 0:06:49.880 --> 0:06:50.839 Have been intertwined. 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:53.719 And I've been thinking about this, and you know, there's 0:06:53.720 --> 0:06:56.480 a part of me I'm like, you know, I can 0:06:56.560 --> 0:06:59.680 be a curmudgeon on some of this stuff when I 0:06:59.680 --> 0:07:04.160 hear a celebrity or an athlete pop off about a politician, 0:07:04.160 --> 0:07:05.920 whether left or right, and I just sort of roll 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:09.120 my eyes. Oh god, you know. And then then I 0:07:09.160 --> 0:07:12.360 remind myself, well, I do this about sports, and I 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:15.520 wonder how many sports guys roll their eyes and people 0:07:15.600 --> 0:07:18.400 like Chuck to pop off about sports and they think 0:07:18.480 --> 0:07:20.480 they know what they're doing, or Richard Nixon wants to 0:07:20.480 --> 0:07:23.120 write a play for the Washington football team back in 0:07:23.160 --> 0:07:26.120 the day. So I at the end of the day, 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:29.000 we're all citizens, and we're all we all sort of 0:07:29.000 --> 0:07:30.400 have earned the right to pop off. 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:31.040 Okay. 0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:35.400 The question is what is the role that political leaders? 0:07:35.560 --> 0:07:37.280 What's a proper role At the end of the day, 0:07:37.280 --> 0:07:44.120 they're you know, democracy, it is it's infused in the culture. Right, 0:07:44.120 --> 0:07:46.040 This is sort of freedom of the freedom of speech. 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:52.040 So in many ways our political rules were responsive to culture. 0:07:52.200 --> 0:07:56.480 So I, you know, they are intertwined. Whether there's no 0:07:56.560 --> 0:07:59.280 debate about whether they should be or not, it is. 0:08:00.120 --> 0:08:00.480 Okay. 0:08:00.960 --> 0:08:05.560 The question is what should political leaders do impose culture 0:08:06.280 --> 0:08:09.520 or simply influence culture? Are they they to celebrate the 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:12.119 culture or attack the culture of the moment? 0:08:12.360 --> 0:08:12.520 Now? 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:16.040 Donald Trump is aggressive on this, right. He doesn't just 0:08:16.080 --> 0:08:18.760 want to influence culture, right. He wants a certain type 0:08:18.760 --> 0:08:21.120 of He's got a vision in his own head of 0:08:21.160 --> 0:08:22.400 what he wants Kennedy Centator to be. 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:22.680 Right. 0:08:22.680 --> 0:08:26.040 He wants that to be a show, the American showcase 0:08:26.120 --> 0:08:30.400 for what he believes is great American culture. And like 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:34.080 most people age seventy eight, seventy nine or eighty years old, 0:08:34.480 --> 0:08:39.640 they think peak culture was sometime between Dean Martin and 0:08:41.200 --> 0:08:44.520 maybe I'll give them bono, right, But that is culture 0:08:44.559 --> 0:08:48.400 basically nineteen fifty five to nineteen eighty five. That thirty 0:08:48.440 --> 0:08:52.280 years that's peak culture, right, that's you know Les miz 0:08:52.400 --> 0:08:53.000 that came out. 0:08:53.000 --> 0:08:54.200 Then when you start to think, right. 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:57.840 This is and it's simply you know, we I think 0:08:57.840 --> 0:08:59.800 it's human nature when it comes to what we think 0:08:59.840 --> 0:09:04.559 is culture is when is when the culture is appealing 0:09:04.640 --> 0:09:07.560 to us, right, And when we're in the ages of 0:09:07.600 --> 0:09:12.200 somewhere between say ten and forty, that thirty year period, 0:09:12.440 --> 0:09:15.679 that's when most of pop culture is actually trying to 0:09:15.760 --> 0:09:19.680 appeal to you, right, And it's in that thirty year 0:09:19.720 --> 0:09:22.600 period there's always a there's sort of the pre teen culture, 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:25.520 teen culture, college cult, you see where I'm going, And 0:09:25.559 --> 0:09:29.480 then all of a sudden, after forty, it's all nostalgia. Okay, 0:09:29.559 --> 0:09:33.400 everything becomes derivative of nostalgia. I'm not saying people over 0:09:33.480 --> 0:09:37.520 forty aren't interested in new things, but for the most part, 0:09:38.440 --> 0:09:40.959 the view of culture, I think in the human brain 0:09:41.080 --> 0:09:46.840 becomes more nostalgic after a certain age. Well, let's be honest, right, 0:09:46.880 --> 0:09:50.280 there is it's like, what is our comfort level? I 0:09:50.800 --> 0:09:54.000 find myself somewhere in the middle here, Right, I think 0:09:54.040 --> 0:09:58.760 it's perfectly appropriate and it's going to happen that who 0:09:58.800 --> 0:10:03.200 we elect as president is usually somewhat reflective of where 0:10:03.240 --> 0:10:05.000 the culture is at the moment. 0:10:05.840 --> 0:10:06.080 Right. 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:08.679 You know, it's not lost on me that Modern Family 0:10:08.960 --> 0:10:11.240 the election of Obama all sort of happened at the 0:10:11.240 --> 0:10:13.560 same time. Right, Modern Family was sort of peak culture. 0:10:13.600 --> 0:10:16.280 You go back and you think about the culture of 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:18.440 eighties TV, and it was the height of sort of 0:10:18.480 --> 0:10:23.200 family TV, Family ties, The Cosby Show eight is enough 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:26.040 that felt like it fits the Reagan era culture. You 0:10:26.160 --> 0:10:28.360 throw in a Dallas and a dynasty, right, and that 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:30.959 sort of is a that was that version of the 0:10:31.040 --> 0:10:33.760 darker version of culture. Right, you could say, you know, 0:10:33.840 --> 0:10:36.319 the up to be a Modern Family breaking bad. Right, 0:10:36.360 --> 0:10:40.280 In some ways both were We're sort of part of 0:10:40.320 --> 0:10:46.120 that early sort of influenced culture that you could say 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:53.680 Obama's election either represented or helped facilitate, etc. And certainly 0:10:53.720 --> 0:10:58.080 Trump's election is create I think sort of broadened the 0:10:58.200 --> 0:11:00.720 idea that hey, there's no more cancel culture, although I 0:11:00.720 --> 0:11:02.960 would argue we're starting to see a new version of 0:11:03.000 --> 0:11:06.200 cancel culture develop at this time. By the right who's 0:11:06.200 --> 0:11:09.920 trying to shame you know, whether it's liberal academics, things 0:11:09.960 --> 0:11:13.160 like that, it's no different than the same cancel culture 0:11:13.200 --> 0:11:15.480 those folks on the right were complaining that progressives were 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:18.560 doing when it came to certain comedians and certain things 0:11:18.559 --> 0:11:20.960 that were uttered. So I would caution some of my 0:11:21.000 --> 0:11:24.280 friends in the right who are sort of enjoying this 0:11:24.480 --> 0:11:28.240 moment trying to lord over the culture, that they're actually 0:11:28.480 --> 0:11:34.640 practicing some of the same bad, bad ideas that they 0:11:34.720 --> 0:11:36.880 criticized the left, the left for doing. 0:11:37.320 --> 0:11:39.160 But Donald Trump certainly. 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:41.840 Is trying, you know, he he his presence, He's not 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:47.440 I don't think he is somebody that is trying to 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:51.040 just influence culture. He wants to impose it. And I 0:11:51.080 --> 0:11:53.959 think that's the line, right that there's a fine line 0:11:54.000 --> 0:11:58.000 between you know, freedom of speech and imposing culture. And 0:11:58.040 --> 0:12:03.160 if you're imposing culture, your essentially imposing on speech. And 0:12:03.200 --> 0:12:05.400 I think that's the line he's continuing to draw. 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:05.880 It decided. 0:12:05.920 --> 0:12:08.040 Look, if he doesn't like what Bruce Springsteen has to say, 0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:10.800 so what you know, ask Richard Nixon. 0:12:11.080 --> 0:12:13.439 There are many you know, many. 0:12:14.720 --> 0:12:17.439 Musicians back in the late sixties and early seventies were 0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:21.440 no Nixon fan, and certainly he didn't. He complained about 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:23.720 it on his tapes. He didn't go out and public 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:25.920 and complain about as much. In fact, just the opposite. 0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:28.959 He was always trying to soften his image, right the 0:12:29.360 --> 0:12:32.840 dude the walk in, the walk on with laughing, or 0:12:32.880 --> 0:12:34.760 you look at the picture, you know, hanging out with 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:37.360 Elvis Presley. He of course loved to hang out with 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:42.480 Sammy Davis. But what Trump is you know, doing here 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:46.960 with his He gets angry when celebrities attack them, and 0:12:47.000 --> 0:12:48.400 I think part of it is that he believes he's 0:12:48.400 --> 0:12:50.640 a celebrity, and that he's a celebrity before he was 0:12:50.640 --> 0:12:54.000 a politician. Right, And so this is a case where 0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:56.240 Donald Trump believes, Hey, I'm a member of the same club. 0:12:56.800 --> 0:13:00.520 Why are you attacking me. I'm a member of the 0:13:00.559 --> 0:13:03.680 same club. You shouldn't be doing that type of mindset. 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:07.240 But he, you know, so there's something has to do 0:13:07.320 --> 0:13:10.400 with he thinks he's, hey, we're on par you know, 0:13:10.440 --> 0:13:13.319 you should be celebrating me and et cetera. So he's 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:16.880 doing that, but it is a you know, at the 0:13:16.920 --> 0:13:20.360 end of the day, he just sort of is looking backwards. Look, 0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:23.560 I like my presidents using the White House to celebrate 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:26.160 new artists. I like my presidents in the White House 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:29.800 to try to lift up maybe certain parts of the 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:33.199 culture that weren't getting enough attention, you know. I remember 0:13:33.240 --> 0:13:37.200 it was Jimmy Carter that got me to listen to 0:13:37.240 --> 0:13:39.520 the to Charlie Daniels for the first time. He loved 0:13:39.559 --> 0:13:41.720 the Devil went Down to Georgia that. 0:13:41.760 --> 0:13:42.560 Song, if you know. 0:13:42.760 --> 0:13:46.959 And of course it Charlie Daniels became a little bit 0:13:47.080 --> 0:13:50.360 politically divisive to some people a decade or so ago, 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:54.440 but it was also a form of music that I 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:57.440 hadn't been listening to, and Jimmy Carter sort of surfaced 0:13:57.480 --> 0:13:59.880 it up. So there's there's a fine line, right which 0:13:59.880 --> 0:14:05.200 I think it's perfectly appropriate to surface up new culture, 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:09.040 to sort of diversify the culture, but to impose it 0:14:09.080 --> 0:14:11.880 and say what is good and what is bad. That's 0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:14.680 when you're actually imposing on speech. And I think that's 0:14:14.679 --> 0:14:17.360 when people get reactionary, and that's when everybody gets in 0:14:17.480 --> 0:14:21.320 And I think the frustrating thing is is when is 0:14:21.360 --> 0:14:25.960 when politics gets so infused with with with some sector 0:14:26.000 --> 0:14:29.800 of the culture, whether it's a point at athletics, right, 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:32.760 the NFL felt that the hard way at one point, 0:14:33.320 --> 0:14:35.760 whether it is music, whether it is the Oscars, whether 0:14:35.760 --> 0:14:40.840 it is the Emmys, and so it's a it's it's 0:14:40.840 --> 0:14:44.440 certainly a fine line. But I do think that that 0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:48.120 here's my here's my guess of what where we had it, 0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:50.720 where we had as a country, we're not you know, 0:14:50.920 --> 0:14:53.640 Trump is intentionally inserts himself, right, and the Kennedy Center 0:14:53.640 --> 0:14:57.000 and all this business. We're going to end up wanting 0:14:57.040 --> 0:15:00.640 a president who wants nothing to do with the culture, right. 0:15:00.720 --> 0:15:02.560 I think we're going to be looking for a Dwight 0:15:02.560 --> 0:15:05.440 Eisenhower type. We're gonna be looking for a Gerald Ford type, 0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:09.720 the do no harm frankly, a younger version of what 0:15:09.760 --> 0:15:12.960 people thought they were getting from Joe Biden. Right, Joe 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:16.880 Biden was was you know that he was supposed to 0:15:16.920 --> 0:15:19.720 be Gerald Ford or Dwight Eisenhower. He chose to be 0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:23.320 something else, or he was surrounded by by aides who 0:15:23.440 --> 0:15:26.160 saw something bigger that that wasn't there, right, He didn't 0:15:26.360 --> 0:15:29.120 he didn't meet the moment because he didn't apparently didn't 0:15:29.160 --> 0:15:32.480 realize why he was elected in the first place, you know, 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:35.520 and this happens to many a president. Some understand why 0:15:35.600 --> 0:15:39.920 they were elected, and some have a of a bigger theory. 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:40.120 Of the case. 0:15:40.680 --> 0:15:43.160 But as you listen, look, by the way, if you 0:15:43.160 --> 0:15:46.280 don't like the fact that I've had a political cultural conversation, 0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:49.200 well I don't know why you're subscribing to me number one, 0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:52.480 but number two, fear not the conversation. I have a 0:15:52.520 --> 0:15:55.160 Spencer Cornaber. We talk about movies to talk about we're 0:15:55.160 --> 0:15:57.560 actually limiting the amount of politics. But I will say this, 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:01.800 I noticed that there were there's been more, and I'm 0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:04.920 glad to see it. That one of the permission slips 0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:07.040 that I do think that Trump's election has given to 0:16:07.080 --> 0:16:10.040 Hollywood writers is that if you just just watch this 0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:12.120 season of White Lotus or you watch this season of 0:16:12.160 --> 0:16:17.880 The Studio, and I promise you there are episodes in 0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:21.000 both of those there are parts of both episodes that 0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:24.040 that conversation would not have been, that would not have 0:16:24.080 --> 0:16:29.800 appeared on any episode of any show from twenty fifteen 0:16:29.840 --> 0:16:32.560 through twenty twenty, and maybe from twenty fifteen through twenty 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:38.560 twenty two. But as the acknowledgment that, hey, half the 0:16:38.600 --> 0:16:42.080 country is in one place, and if you're in if 0:16:42.120 --> 0:16:44.200 you're in the business and make it TV shows or movies. 0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:47.960 You'd like to open the aperture so that everybody feels 0:16:48.000 --> 0:16:49.280 comfortable watching your show. 0:16:50.680 --> 0:16:52.360 And so I will tell you. 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:57.400 I am glad when I can't immediately know oh the 0:16:57.440 --> 0:17:00.000 writers are trying to make this political statement. There's nothing 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:03.280 thing I enjoy more than when there's a zag in 0:17:03.320 --> 0:17:06.520 one of the TV shows I'm watching that is literally 0:17:06.560 --> 0:17:10.040 a zag and is meant to sort of virtue signal 0:17:10.080 --> 0:17:13.159 that hey, we're not trying to be one sided politically, 0:17:13.200 --> 0:17:16.760 We're trying to open our doors to all sides of 0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:21.399 the conversation. All Right, I'll shut my trap on this 0:17:21.480 --> 0:17:24.720 topic for now. When we come back a fascinating conversation 0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:30.800 about is how crappy is today's pop culture? I would argue, 0:17:30.840 --> 0:17:32.879 not as crappy as we all think. PI this Spencer 0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:43.119 corn Haber next, well, joining me now is Spencer corn Haburn. 0:17:43.160 --> 0:17:48.520 If you've spent five minutes on the internet, you've probably 0:17:49.280 --> 0:17:54.840 seen a reference to Spencer's piece about culture and about 0:17:55.200 --> 0:17:57.879 in the Atlantic that he essentially made read the title 0:17:57.880 --> 0:18:00.720 of the piece, The title of the piece being is 0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:04.680 this the worst ever era of American pop culture? 0:18:05.400 --> 0:18:06.680 And Spencer we were just. 0:18:06.640 --> 0:18:09.600 Talking before we started recording about how the beauty of 0:18:09.600 --> 0:18:11.439 your piece is how much it has sparked a lot 0:18:11.480 --> 0:18:13.440 of other people to write about it or talk about 0:18:13.440 --> 0:18:16.080 it or say it, and in fact, you will love this. 0:18:16.760 --> 0:18:19.320 My daughter just got home from college, like when I say, 0:18:19.359 --> 0:18:22.400 got them got like an hour ago, and I'm like, yeah, 0:18:22.680 --> 0:18:25.080 I'm going to, you know, tape this interview. And she goes, 0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:26.080 what are you doing? And I show her. 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:28.399 She goes, are you going to be trashing Taylor Swift? 0:18:28.720 --> 0:18:33.240 That was like her first question. It's good culture And 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:33.680 I'm like. 0:18:33.720 --> 0:18:34.520 Well, I don't know yet. 0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:38.639 We'll talk about it, but let's start with why did 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:39.879 you decide to write this piece? 0:18:39.880 --> 0:18:41.160 And I asked, because. 0:18:43.000 --> 0:18:45.560 This is a piece that is always fraught with peril, 0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:49.760 meaning the minute you write it. It's the ultimate subjective 0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:56.159 because one person's cultural disgust is another person's excitement about change. 0:18:57.440 --> 0:19:01.400 So what motivated you? And let me ask me, why 0:19:01.400 --> 0:19:02.720 do you think you should write this piece? 0:19:04.440 --> 0:19:07.320 Well, what motivating me is that the complaining got so 0:19:07.520 --> 0:19:10.400 loud in the culture in the twenty twenties. I felt 0:19:10.480 --> 0:19:13.119 like I've been at the Atlantic as a culture critic 0:19:13.240 --> 0:19:17.400 for nearly fifteen years now, and I kind of wanted 0:19:17.480 --> 0:19:21.320 the job knowing that declinism was part of the tradition 0:19:21.560 --> 0:19:22.560 of arts criticism. 0:19:22.680 --> 0:19:23.840 Every generation. 0:19:25.080 --> 0:19:27.000 Ends up feeling like it grew up in a golden 0:19:27.000 --> 0:19:29.639 age and like watched that golden age, and and you know, 0:19:29.680 --> 0:19:32.200 a lot of critics spend the second half of their 0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:36.520 career kind of writing lay laymentations for how things used 0:19:36.560 --> 0:19:40.159 to be. And so I've been very self aware about 0:19:40.200 --> 0:19:43.040 not falling into that trap. I've been accused of being 0:19:43.080 --> 0:19:45.760 overly optimistic or optimistic is. 0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:48.120 Some optimistic that's a good word. 0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:51.280 Yeah, you know, that's when you allegedly just believe that 0:19:51.359 --> 0:19:54.080 anything that's popular is great art, which is not something 0:19:54.119 --> 0:19:58.480 I believe. But when you start praising people like Tarterswift, 0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:00.960 you sometimes get called optimist, which is just the way 0:20:01.000 --> 0:20:02.600 of calling you a sheep or whatever. 0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:06.199 So, you know, I've been on guard for this. 0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:09.320 But in the twenty twenties, kind of coming out of 0:20:09.320 --> 0:20:13.639 the pandemic, it felt like there was no coherent story 0:20:13.720 --> 0:20:15.960 in culture other than I was reading from all these 0:20:15.960 --> 0:20:21.560 different different vandage points. People feeling like culture was dying. 0:20:21.600 --> 0:20:25.040 Their favorite art form was, you know, in a follow 0:20:25.080 --> 0:20:29.959 period and so, and the arguments they were making were 0:20:29.960 --> 0:20:33.600 actually rather compelling and some of them did involve these 0:20:33.600 --> 0:20:36.520 sort of subjective questions that you referred to. You know, 0:20:36.600 --> 0:20:38.479 that can get so tire somewhere, can kind of just 0:20:38.880 --> 0:20:42.680 be a circular argument about which era of movies or 0:20:42.800 --> 0:20:46.080 music was the best. There was a little bit about that, 0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:50.800 but there were more about these structural, technological, economic, political 0:20:50.840 --> 0:20:54.640 forces that were making this era feel really different than 0:20:55.160 --> 0:20:56.320 previous eras we lived through. 0:20:57.320 --> 0:20:59.680 I want to focus on music and literature first because 0:20:59.680 --> 0:21:03.120 I think those are the ones where I feel as 0:21:03.160 --> 0:21:06.560 if technology may have. 0:21:06.440 --> 0:21:07.080 Gotten in a way. 0:21:07.119 --> 0:21:09.199 Let me start with music, because I'm a I was 0:21:09.200 --> 0:21:11.560 a music major in college, because I was a classical 0:21:11.680 --> 0:21:12.719 music person. 0:21:12.760 --> 0:21:13.080 I had. 0:21:13.160 --> 0:21:17.320 I played the French worn I have. I My father 0:21:17.400 --> 0:21:19.720 worked in the record industry, so I grew up all 0:21:19.720 --> 0:21:23.040 these final records all the time, and he loved both. 0:21:23.080 --> 0:21:25.359 He was early rock, he was a boomer, but also 0:21:26.200 --> 0:21:30.080 you know, loved he loved all of Mozart. It was 0:21:30.080 --> 0:21:34.359 more Mozart than Beethoven. But I so I have an 0:21:34.359 --> 0:21:39.120 eclectic music taste. I also growing up in the eighties, 0:21:40.000 --> 0:21:42.320 you know, you know, I literally go from led Zeppelin 0:21:42.359 --> 0:21:44.320 to Public Enemy, right, which is what a lot of 0:21:44.359 --> 0:21:46.560 my friends did, right. We were the transition, and that 0:21:46.720 --> 0:21:48.560 was what we thought was cool. I certainly had a 0:21:48.600 --> 0:21:51.800 clash phase, you know, so, just like sort of. 0:21:51.800 --> 0:21:52.719 Any kid of the eighties. 0:21:53.440 --> 0:21:57.520 I bring this up because my I'm a new music snob. 0:21:57.600 --> 0:21:59.960 I missed the days of the in the early night 0:22:00.280 --> 0:22:02.840 you go to listening stations, and I was the guy. 0:22:02.880 --> 0:22:04.960 If I found one song on an album, I like, 0:22:05.000 --> 0:22:06.560 I bought the whole album. I'm like, I'm giving that 0:22:06.640 --> 0:22:09.320 artist a chance because I want to. I believed in 0:22:09.359 --> 0:22:12.040 the entire idea of hey, they have something to say, 0:22:12.119 --> 0:22:13.880 let me, let me, let me listen to the whole thing. 0:22:14.480 --> 0:22:19.320 And my frustration with music today I have and I'm 0:22:20.160 --> 0:22:22.639 well confess I have the luxury to do this, but 0:22:22.680 --> 0:22:26.040 I have six different music streaming services that I that 0:22:26.119 --> 0:22:30.560 I use because I had it all on Apple and 0:22:30.600 --> 0:22:33.320 it can't. I never get I never get anything that's new, 0:22:33.400 --> 0:22:36.320 unclassical mean and not obviously classical music's never new, but 0:22:36.400 --> 0:22:39.639 there's new interpretations, new recordings, whatever, because it's not a 0:22:39.640 --> 0:22:42.600 big enough part of my library to trigger the algorithm, 0:22:42.920 --> 0:22:45.600 right or I have way too much seventies and eighties rock, 0:22:46.040 --> 0:22:48.840 and I just get all the new music is always 0:22:48.840 --> 0:22:51.960 something on that so I've literally created all right, this 0:22:52.040 --> 0:22:55.360 is my classical music one, this is my hip hop one, 0:22:55.440 --> 0:22:58.840 this is my classic rock et cetera. And so I 0:22:58.880 --> 0:23:01.640 look at it and I think it's the algorithms that 0:23:01.680 --> 0:23:06.560 have really screwed up the ability to surface new music. 0:23:07.000 --> 0:23:11.040 That's what I have experienced. Am I describing something that's 0:23:11.040 --> 0:23:11.760 familiar to you? 0:23:12.800 --> 0:23:13.440 Absolutely? 0:23:14.160 --> 0:23:16.840 You know, one of the most sort of shocking statistics 0:23:16.880 --> 0:23:19.399 about music these days is that seventy five percent of 0:23:19.560 --> 0:23:23.200 music that's streamed every year is old music, music that's 0:23:23.200 --> 0:23:25.399 older than eighteen months old. So only twenty five percent 0:23:25.440 --> 0:23:29.399 of what's being streamed at any given moment is new, 0:23:29.760 --> 0:23:32.360 and those numbers keep getting quoe unquote worse every year. 0:23:32.840 --> 0:23:35.760 The piece of the pie that's new is getting smaller 0:23:35.760 --> 0:23:38.600 and smaller. And a lot of this, I think does 0:23:39.160 --> 0:23:43.359 come from the forces of algorithms, where they the easiest 0:23:43.359 --> 0:23:45.800 way to predict what someone's going to want to listen 0:23:45.840 --> 0:23:48.440 to tomorrow is to study what they listened to yesterday. 0:23:48.800 --> 0:23:52.120 And this has been marketing logic for you know, time eternal. 0:23:52.200 --> 0:23:54.919 You know, you can think back to the stereotype of 0:23:55.240 --> 0:23:58.080 record label boss in the seventies telling a rock band 0:23:58.119 --> 0:24:00.199 to make a new hit that sounds like their last hit, 0:24:00.280 --> 0:24:03.800 right like these these pressures in these forces are kind 0:24:03.800 --> 0:24:07.800 of the table stakes for making art in capitalism, you 0:24:07.800 --> 0:24:12.280 could say, but algorithmic culture gives us so much algorithms 0:24:12.320 --> 0:24:16.200 give us so much data and are just so are 0:24:16.320 --> 0:24:20.359 so you know, sophisticated about serving you something that is 0:24:20.359 --> 0:24:24.360 going to keep you maybe not actively engaged, but possibly engaged. 0:24:24.440 --> 0:24:27.680 Not not You're not going to write down the name 0:24:27.720 --> 0:24:30.479 of the artists necessarily, but you're not going to hit skip. 0:24:31.240 --> 0:24:34.199 And so this encourages a blander and more passive and 0:24:34.520 --> 0:24:36.679 more recycled or regressive culture. 0:24:37.760 --> 0:24:38.440 No, it does. 0:24:38.560 --> 0:24:40.679 You know, another way that I've always thought, you know, 0:24:40.960 --> 0:24:44.320 tv ads, and obviously few and few people see tv ads, 0:24:44.320 --> 0:24:48.680 but you can always tell who what demographic they're targeting 0:24:49.080 --> 0:24:51.840 by the music that they licensed in the background, because 0:24:51.880 --> 0:24:56.840 it's always to me, they're always targeting somebody who listened 0:24:56.840 --> 0:24:59.400 to that music when they were a teenager, right, so 0:24:59.720 --> 0:25:02.520 you know, it's like beating you know, so you could 0:25:02.560 --> 0:25:06.200 always sort of see, oh, they're they're targeting you know boomers, 0:25:06.280 --> 0:25:09.359 that's why they're using the Beatles, or they're targeting you 0:25:09.359 --> 0:25:11.720 know gen x, that's why they're using guns n' roses, 0:25:11.840 --> 0:25:16.000 or they're targeting, you know, millennials. That's why you're hearing 0:25:16.040 --> 0:25:18.840 some Nirvana. I don't know if Nirvana's millennial or not. 0:25:18.960 --> 0:25:21.560 I we can we can debate that, but you get 0:25:21.560 --> 0:25:24.119 my point here, right, Like you see it sometimes in 0:25:24.200 --> 0:25:26.840 that and that, and that's now how I feel these 0:25:26.880 --> 0:25:29.800 algorithms are working almost in the same way that car 0:25:29.800 --> 0:25:33.479 companies use music to try to get us to trigger 0:25:33.560 --> 0:25:36.919 nostalgia to get to to make purchases. 0:25:37.520 --> 0:25:39.880 Well, that's that's certainly true, and that's certainly how it's 0:25:39.920 --> 0:25:42.600 been done for a long time. I mean, interesting thing 0:25:42.720 --> 0:25:45.200 about what you're saying is what kind of music would 0:25:45.200 --> 0:25:48.920 you play now to make someone who's young now nostalgic 0:25:49.160 --> 0:25:53.520 for their teenagehood. If you think about what's popular these days, 0:25:53.600 --> 0:25:57.280 you can think about artists like Sabrina Carpenter, Benson Boone, 0:25:58.280 --> 0:26:00.399 these are there's a lot of music on the charts 0:26:00.480 --> 0:26:06.000 that to me isn't sonically linked that closely to this moment. 0:26:06.080 --> 0:26:09.359 It sounds like a rehash of classic rock or old 0:26:09.400 --> 0:26:12.920 country music. You know, it's a kind of pastiche of 0:26:13.760 --> 0:26:16.280 really all the decades of rock and roll that you 0:26:16.320 --> 0:26:19.560 just reference is kind of coming back and being remixed, 0:26:20.080 --> 0:26:22.040 and that's kind of how music has always moved forward, 0:26:22.080 --> 0:26:27.280 but it hasn't always felt this much like this regressive, really, 0:26:27.320 --> 0:26:29.960 And I think there are market forces related to these 0:26:29.960 --> 0:26:35.200 algorithms that are encouraging pop producers and songwriters to think 0:26:35.240 --> 0:26:37.359 about how they can make music that is going to 0:26:37.359 --> 0:26:41.240 play to a very large audience by triggering nostalgia for 0:26:41.359 --> 0:26:44.800 multiple generations, and what the effect of that is to 0:26:44.880 --> 0:26:47.560 create pop music that doesn't really move the ball forward 0:26:47.560 --> 0:26:48.840 that much in terms of sound, right. 0:26:49.520 --> 0:26:51.159 You know the other thing though, and let me let 0:26:51.200 --> 0:26:54.560 me do a counter on this and what algorithms taught 0:26:54.640 --> 0:26:58.359 us that perhaps we didn't fully appreciate. So before the algorithm, 0:26:58.920 --> 0:27:02.040 I would argue the cost dictated music taste, right, it 0:27:02.080 --> 0:27:05.760 was either New York or LA and you know, yes, 0:27:05.840 --> 0:27:07.520 we could throw in Motown there too. 0:27:07.400 --> 0:27:09.160 But really those were the three places. 0:27:10.320 --> 0:27:14.360 And it turns out country music was a lot more 0:27:14.359 --> 0:27:18.240 popular than how you know, this is a class, you know, 0:27:18.280 --> 0:27:21.320 it's sort of like it was a It's a version 0:27:21.359 --> 0:27:24.080 of this of Letterman versus Leno. Leno was always more 0:27:24.080 --> 0:27:26.520 popular in the middle of America. Letterman was more popular 0:27:26.560 --> 0:27:28.560 in the coasts, and the rating showed it right. Leno 0:27:28.600 --> 0:27:32.959 had more viewers, Lenno had more eyeballs, even if Letterman 0:27:33.040 --> 0:27:33.680 was winning the. 0:27:33.640 --> 0:27:35.840 College educated crowd, if you want to go there. 0:27:36.600 --> 0:27:43.600 And so, what the flattening of music taste did is 0:27:43.640 --> 0:27:46.639 it reminded people. Did you know a majority of Americans 0:27:46.680 --> 0:27:49.919 actually prefer country? Because it does feel as if country's 0:27:50.000 --> 0:27:53.400 moment now where it's the only place I can find 0:27:53.440 --> 0:27:57.000 the electric guitar anymore. Country, you know, the only place 0:27:57.040 --> 0:28:00.600 you find some of the most interesting song lyrics that 0:28:00.680 --> 0:28:01.480 have a message. 0:28:01.800 --> 0:28:02.359 Country. 0:28:04.800 --> 0:28:08.240 Is that an argument for crowds that maybe we were 0:28:08.880 --> 0:28:12.480 we were mistreating country music in our culture for decades. 0:28:13.680 --> 0:28:15.640 Yeah, Well, part of the story that we're talking about 0:28:15.680 --> 0:28:22.080 here is the fall gatekeepers, you know, radio, DJs, print magazines, 0:28:22.440 --> 0:28:24.880 major labels. They You're right, they all had to kind 0:28:24.920 --> 0:28:29.840 of coastal often elite bias. And so as more and 0:28:29.840 --> 0:28:32.639 more of America has gone online or not gone online 0:28:32.640 --> 0:28:34.679 but gone on the streaming in the past decade or so, 0:28:35.359 --> 0:28:39.120 you're absolutely seeing things like country also hip hop revealed 0:28:39.160 --> 0:28:40.360 the kind of latent. 0:28:40.080 --> 0:28:42.680 Popularity that was perhaps already there. 0:28:43.880 --> 0:28:46.040 And yeah, it's a fascinating thing because it's not only 0:28:46.040 --> 0:28:48.800 happening in America, but it's also allowing global sounds to 0:28:49.760 --> 0:28:52.520 come to the fore and be exposed to American audiences 0:28:52.760 --> 0:28:58.720 where things like K pop or Spanish language pop or afropop, afrobeats, 0:28:59.760 --> 0:29:01.640 these are also like kind of like in a renaissance 0:29:01.640 --> 0:29:05.200 of popularity. And the question is were they kind of 0:29:05.200 --> 0:29:07.680 always as popular as we couldn't see that in America? 0:29:07.840 --> 0:29:11.760 Or did did this falling of the gate keepers, this 0:29:11.800 --> 0:29:15.480 algorithmic culture and this ability to search and listen to 0:29:15.520 --> 0:29:18.600 whatever you want on demand? Did that create a new 0:29:18.600 --> 0:29:22.440 marketplace and expose Is that really the source of novelty 0:29:22.720 --> 0:29:24.800 for people who are looking for novelty and culture? Now 0:29:24.920 --> 0:29:27.320 audiences are gravitating towards these sounds that they really couldn't 0:29:27.360 --> 0:29:29.000 have accessed as easily a few years ago. 0:29:30.560 --> 0:29:33.840 Look, I I'm glad you brought up Latin Latin pop 0:29:33.920 --> 0:29:35.960 or Latin dance if you will, or however you want 0:29:35.960 --> 0:29:38.120 it in K pop, because both of those, You're right, 0:29:38.160 --> 0:29:40.560 I mean, that was again, that was something that the 0:29:40.640 --> 0:29:45.040 Details magazine was never going to talk about totally, right, Yeah. 0:29:45.200 --> 0:29:49.160 Yeah, I mean I came home to visit my baby 0:29:49.520 --> 0:29:52.280 parents a couple of years ago and they'd been listening 0:29:52.320 --> 0:29:55.920 to you know, their Alexa algorithms, and they've become obsessed 0:29:55.960 --> 0:29:56.560 with bad Bunny. 0:29:57.160 --> 0:29:58.480 You know, they speak it. 0:29:58.520 --> 0:30:02.560 Be spanished and never let's than any Latin pop ever before. 0:30:02.720 --> 0:30:06.800 And suddenly their taste seemed to have expanded thanks the algorithm. 0:30:06.880 --> 0:30:08.680 So these things aren't all bad. 0:30:09.480 --> 0:30:12.400 No, That's why I wanted to sort of like basically 0:30:13.440 --> 0:30:15.560 fight my own argument here a little bit. My son 0:30:15.640 --> 0:30:21.480 is eighteen and thinks Oasis is amazing, had this this 0:30:21.600 --> 0:30:28.000 huge nineties obsession and he loves Oasis, and you're like, okay, interesting, 0:30:28.120 --> 0:30:30.600 I said, well, you might like the Beatles. Oasis was 0:30:30.640 --> 0:30:35.120 kind of a Beatles ripoff, you know type of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:30:35.240 --> 0:30:37.120 So I don't know what to make of that. I mean, look, 0:30:37.160 --> 0:30:41.640 I remember myself, you know, about his age. I was, 0:30:41.880 --> 0:30:44.200 you know, if I was going into older music. For me, 0:30:44.280 --> 0:30:47.280 it was it was I got real into motown, you know, 0:30:47.320 --> 0:30:50.719 when I was seventeen eighteen. As I started getting into 0:30:50.800 --> 0:30:52.520 hip hop right then, it was like, oh I want 0:30:52.560 --> 0:30:54.840 to I want to hear more black music, you know. 0:30:54.960 --> 0:30:57.840 So I got really into motown recordings back then. So 0:30:57.880 --> 0:31:00.239 I guess that's the same mindset, you know. 0:31:01.960 --> 0:31:05.560 But I look at you, Yeah, is part of learning 0:31:05.560 --> 0:31:08.240 your learning your history as part of EVE. And so 0:31:08.600 --> 0:31:10.280 I do think that some of this like fear of 0:31:10.280 --> 0:31:15.120 stagnation that we're seeing is actually identifying actually, really people 0:31:15.120 --> 0:31:17.280 who are excited about music and are learning about it 0:31:17.560 --> 0:31:20.520 and treating that as if it's that something perverse about it, 0:31:20.800 --> 0:31:22.320 which is actually is rather healthy. 0:31:22.800 --> 0:31:24.760 Let me go one more on music here before we 0:31:25.720 --> 0:31:28.080 pivot to others. So I don't want, you know, to 0:31:28.120 --> 0:31:31.360 go all music here, but you know, it's also possible 0:31:31.400 --> 0:31:37.480 certain music genre is mature, right, Classical music's matured. There's 0:31:37.520 --> 0:31:40.640 it's you know, even new stuff today is going to 0:31:40.840 --> 0:31:45.080 sound like you know, Aaron Copeland, and he was new 0:31:45.120 --> 0:31:47.640 when he came around the tone of the century nineteenth 0:31:47.640 --> 0:31:50.480 to twentieth, right, So even when you see new scores 0:31:50.520 --> 0:31:55.280 that are classically inspired, you know it it sounds, you know, 0:31:55.480 --> 0:31:57.840 not like the seventeen hundreds and eighteen hundreds classical, but 0:31:57.840 --> 0:32:01.520 more like the nineteenth century. There's a lot of Tchaikovsky 0:32:02.000 --> 0:32:04.760 inspiration in Aaron Copland and stuff like that. So my 0:32:04.840 --> 0:32:06.600 point is is that that's a mature sound. 0:32:07.240 --> 0:32:07.520 Rock. 0:32:08.560 --> 0:32:12.720 I think the electric guitar is, for whatever reason, what 0:32:12.880 --> 0:32:15.040 we define as rock music. I don't know if there's 0:32:16.040 --> 0:32:19.320 I think, is it, I would argue, let me ask you, 0:32:19.440 --> 0:32:20.200 is it matured? 0:32:20.320 --> 0:32:20.840 Are we done? 0:32:20.880 --> 0:32:23.520 Are we just simply frustrated that we haven't had a 0:32:23.640 --> 0:32:26.120 new genre of music take off yet. 0:32:27.480 --> 0:32:31.440 It's a very good question that's really hard to answer 0:32:31.480 --> 0:32:34.720 because for rock and roll in particular, basically every decade 0:32:34.800 --> 0:32:37.240 since it was invented, people have played it's the. 0:32:37.160 --> 0:32:39.800 Most it's done right, Yeah, you know, right? 0:32:39.880 --> 0:32:42.400 Are the Killers, like the Killers have been the last 0:32:42.480 --> 0:32:44.600 rock band? For are they still the last rock band? 0:32:44.800 --> 0:32:47.280 Because that was always that's for me, it's always how 0:32:47.280 --> 0:32:49.800 they were built in the early two thousands. Meet the 0:32:49.880 --> 0:32:51.680 Killers the last rock band. 0:32:52.360 --> 0:32:55.360 Yeah, We've had a few different artists claim that title. 0:32:56.040 --> 0:32:58.400 You know, something like the nineteen seventy five I would say, 0:32:58.520 --> 0:33:01.760 is a more recent example of the last rock band. 0:33:01.800 --> 0:33:05.080 And you know they that's an innovative of the moment 0:33:05.880 --> 0:33:08.200 band that brings in pieces of the past, but really 0:33:08.480 --> 0:33:11.200 feels very rooted in the now and and really in 0:33:11.200 --> 0:33:15.280 internet culture. So I do think that genres burn themselves 0:33:15.280 --> 0:33:18.600 out or kind of do reach a stalling point. At 0:33:18.600 --> 0:33:20.840 the same time, you know, we're talking about country music 0:33:20.920 --> 0:33:24.280 having this resurgence, and that's due to country artists making 0:33:24.360 --> 0:33:27.080 music that sort of sounds traditional, but they're taking on 0:33:27.120 --> 0:33:31.160 new lyrical topics, or they're incorporating hip hop influences, or 0:33:31.640 --> 0:33:34.160 it just feels a little more modern. So I do 0:33:34.200 --> 0:33:37.400 think there's waves for very old genres to engage with 0:33:37.440 --> 0:33:38.040 their times. 0:33:39.040 --> 0:33:41.400 But yeah, I have that fear, and I you know. 0:33:41.400 --> 0:33:43.440 There's some people who have a fear that recorded music 0:33:43.520 --> 0:33:47.520 itself is sort of at the end of its life cycle. 0:33:47.640 --> 0:33:49.360 There's not really a lot more that you can a 0:33:49.400 --> 0:33:51.480 lot in many more combinations of sounds that you could 0:33:51.480 --> 0:33:53.400 put together in a pleasing way on a recording that 0:33:53.440 --> 0:33:54.320 people are going to listen to. 0:33:54.960 --> 0:33:57.400 It's a rather well that's going to be fascinating with AI, 0:33:57.600 --> 0:34:00.479 isn't it, Because AI is goody going to be able 0:34:00.520 --> 0:34:02.880 to experience as much as people are all negative on 0:34:02.920 --> 0:34:04.840 AI and I and I get that you're going to 0:34:04.880 --> 0:34:08.160 be able to experiment and see, you know, classical music 0:34:08.160 --> 0:34:09.879 went through this where it was just sort of, hey, 0:34:09.960 --> 0:34:12.960 let's make chords that clash rather than that go together. 0:34:13.360 --> 0:34:15.479 And you're like, no, I don't like this, and there's 0:34:15.480 --> 0:34:20.600 a reason it didn't take off, right, But I do. 0:34:21.800 --> 0:34:24.759 I wonder how culture will handle Somebody is going to 0:34:24.760 --> 0:34:28.840 be using AI to mix, to do some some sort 0:34:28.840 --> 0:34:33.560 of mixing of sounds that'll take off, and well then 0:34:34.120 --> 0:34:37.280 that that maybe now it'll be a combination of everything. 0:34:37.280 --> 0:34:40.440 But what music wasn't inspired by something that was already 0:34:40.480 --> 0:34:41.280 had been created. 0:34:42.320 --> 0:34:44.759 Yeah, I think you're I think that's right. Like AI 0:34:44.880 --> 0:34:46.440 is going to serve up a bunch of new color 0:34:46.480 --> 0:34:50.520 swatches that artists can pull from. I don't think I'd 0:34:50.560 --> 0:34:52.000 have a hard time imagine that AI is going to 0:34:52.040 --> 0:34:54.960 create a new sound that will that will work for 0:34:55.000 --> 0:34:58.120 people as like meaningful music in a way that like 0:34:58.640 --> 0:35:01.239 previous new kinds of me music did, because there's no 0:35:02.360 --> 0:35:04.080 you know, music has a meaning to people, like it 0:35:04.800 --> 0:35:07.480 conveys something about identity and about the world that they're 0:35:07.520 --> 0:35:11.439 the vain and uh it's I think that's pretty hard 0:35:11.680 --> 0:35:15.480 to fake it. And so I do think what's going 0:35:15.520 --> 0:35:18.080 to happen is what you're saying, that that we're gonna 0:35:18.600 --> 0:35:22.320 have this new library of possible sounds, and the interesting 0:35:22.440 --> 0:35:26.160 humans might do something with that using the AI. At least, 0:35:26.280 --> 0:35:27.560 that's the most hopeful take. 0:35:27.440 --> 0:35:29.160 For that's the most right and hopeful. 0:35:29.560 --> 0:35:34.120 Let's turn to a place where I think we should 0:35:34.160 --> 0:35:36.920 actually be celebrating our culture rather and that is sort 0:35:36.960 --> 0:35:41.080 of what we've done with television. I mean, television isn't 0:35:41.120 --> 0:35:44.160 something where we're all going, boy, the good old days, now, 0:35:44.200 --> 0:35:48.239 the good old days. Have you watched some of those comes, right? 0:35:48.719 --> 0:35:50.960 Have you watched some of those dramas, like, you know, 0:35:51.000 --> 0:35:53.520 go watch an episode of Quincy and tell me that 0:35:53.560 --> 0:35:57.160 we haven't gotten better at the medical drama? Okay, nothing, 0:35:57.239 --> 0:36:01.200 you know? Or or Rescue nine I think it was called. 0:36:01.480 --> 0:36:04.920 It wasn't Rescue fifty one or car fifty one Emergency 0:36:04.920 --> 0:36:08.000 fifty one, which is just no different than what we 0:36:08.080 --> 0:36:09.920 have today in nine to one one, you know, but 0:36:09.960 --> 0:36:14.640 it's a little bit more sophisticated. I do think we're 0:36:14.640 --> 0:36:18.200 in a golden age of television entertainment, and that is 0:36:18.239 --> 0:36:21.279 something where you could say it is better now than 0:36:21.320 --> 0:36:21.960 it was. 0:36:22.680 --> 0:36:22.839 Right. 0:36:22.920 --> 0:36:26.520 We can debate music, we can debate frankly physical art work, 0:36:26.600 --> 0:36:29.040 which I want to get into a little bit, even literature, 0:36:30.320 --> 0:36:32.600 But on television, what say you and what did you 0:36:33.120 --> 0:36:36.400 find in your writings on that aspect of culture? 0:36:37.320 --> 0:36:39.319 I think that we have been in a golden native 0:36:39.360 --> 0:36:42.960 television and the concern just in the last couple of 0:36:43.000 --> 0:36:45.080 years is that it's sort of ending, and the gold 0:36:45.160 --> 0:36:47.440 NATed television would have been like maybe from two thousand 0:36:47.440 --> 0:36:51.040 and eight, so twenty twenty, you know that that era 0:36:51.239 --> 0:36:56.000 of you know, prestige TV really becoming the center of 0:36:56.000 --> 0:36:59.520 a culture and streaming enabling all these different kinds of 0:36:59.560 --> 0:37:02.880 stories being told that we're high quality. It seemed like 0:37:02.920 --> 0:37:06.520 streaming services were trying to stand out by doing things 0:37:06.520 --> 0:37:11.279 that were really high quality and authentic and just provocative. 0:37:12.239 --> 0:37:14.879 There's a feeling that that is starting to peter out. 0:37:14.920 --> 0:37:18.239 And again these algorithms that you're that you are so 0:37:18.360 --> 0:37:22.080 fearful about. You look at something like Netflix. Netflix is 0:37:22.280 --> 0:37:25.520 putting out an incredible amount of content, original content, and 0:37:25.719 --> 0:37:30.000 it's produced and written. In many cases, according to notes 0:37:30.040 --> 0:37:33.160 that were given by studio executives that were informed by 0:37:33.360 --> 0:37:34.719 the algorithm, there's just a lot. 0:37:34.600 --> 0:37:37.239 Of well, that's the whole the entire Hallmark channel, Like 0:37:37.280 --> 0:37:41.239 there's a whole business, right that is literally those have 0:37:41.320 --> 0:37:45.319 to be AI scripts, right, let's feature the kel Let's 0:37:45.320 --> 0:37:49.440 feature Donna Kelcey in this Hallmark movie and oh the 0:37:49.560 --> 0:37:52.200 scripts out and I got it, give me fifteen minutes. 0:37:52.239 --> 0:37:53.040 I'll get you a script. 0:37:53.719 --> 0:37:55.520 Yeah, and then also make sure that it's paced of 0:37:55.719 --> 0:37:57.959 Justin's the way that someone can look at their phone 0:37:58.000 --> 0:37:59.439 and aut a wrapp look at the screen and still 0:37:59.440 --> 0:38:01.759 know what's going on on. So I think algorithms are 0:38:01.760 --> 0:38:06.520 giving companies and creators more ways to be mediocre perhaps, 0:38:07.360 --> 0:38:09.279 and we're seeing a flood of that mediocrity and TV. 0:38:09.440 --> 0:38:12.520 At the same time, HBO is the pit a lot 0:38:12.520 --> 0:38:15.200 better than Quincy, the best medical drama I think maybe 0:38:15.200 --> 0:38:18.839 ever made an incredible work of art that just came out. 0:38:18.920 --> 0:38:21.560 So I agree that the highest of television are as 0:38:21.640 --> 0:38:22.440 highs they've ever been. 0:38:23.000 --> 0:38:26.080 Now, let's talk about movies, right, movies have been in 0:38:26.120 --> 0:38:29.399 some ways this is a genre that I'm wondering if 0:38:29.440 --> 0:38:35.160 it's to just matured out, meaning we're you know it is. 0:38:37.400 --> 0:38:38.000 In some ways. 0:38:38.000 --> 0:38:41.520 Episodic television has like I can't tell you how many 0:38:41.520 --> 0:38:43.440 times I see a movie and I'm like, boy, I'd 0:38:43.480 --> 0:38:47.279 have preferred that as a six episode. I want the 0:38:47.320 --> 0:38:50.640 stuff they cut, and I'd rather have it as six 0:38:50.760 --> 0:38:54.840 or eight episodes. Give me five hours of total watch 0:38:54.920 --> 0:38:57.719 time six or eight episodes, rather than you trying to 0:38:57.840 --> 0:39:00.480 edit me a quick ninety minute to our store. There 0:39:00.520 --> 0:39:03.040 are versions that still work. I thought, no, mad, that's 0:39:03.080 --> 0:39:05.759 not a movie that I wanted episodically made out and 0:39:05.800 --> 0:39:07.840 it was a terrific movie and it really told a 0:39:07.840 --> 0:39:10.799 great story. Right, So it's not as if movies still 0:39:10.800 --> 0:39:13.200 don't have its place, but I wonder if it's matured. 0:39:14.400 --> 0:39:14.640 Yeah. 0:39:14.680 --> 0:39:17.480 I think that movies and TV really are blended together 0:39:17.640 --> 0:39:19.680 more than they ever have been. And it's hard to 0:39:19.680 --> 0:39:22.279 talk about one without talking about the other. I mean, 0:39:22.320 --> 0:39:24.640 I just you know, I just watched and Or, which 0:39:24.719 --> 0:39:27.120 is a TV series, but it's was made in the 0:39:27.160 --> 0:39:29.880 series of three episode arcs, and. 0:39:29.719 --> 0:39:32.799 I got three more episodes. Buddy, that's awesome. I know, 0:39:32.840 --> 0:39:33.560 no spoilers. 0:39:34.880 --> 0:39:37.040 My wife's out of toud, so what That's a show 0:39:37.080 --> 0:39:39.680 we watched together, so you know she's out of town. 0:39:39.800 --> 0:39:43.360 So those three episodes are sitting there taunting me. But anyway, 0:39:43.360 --> 0:39:43.720 go ahead. 0:39:44.080 --> 0:39:46.120 You're gonna love it. You might cry a bit though. 0:39:47.320 --> 0:39:51.800 The to me, that feels like, hey, like that's movie 0:39:51.840 --> 0:39:54.440 ambition being done for TV, and I almost wish that 0:39:54.480 --> 0:39:57.920 it was released to three movies, you know, But that's 0:39:57.920 --> 0:39:58.200 the well. 0:39:58.239 --> 0:40:02.000 Tom Cruise is fighting this right, mission impossible. He basically 0:40:02.040 --> 0:40:05.279 took what would have been one season eight episodes, and 0:40:05.280 --> 0:40:06.640 he said, no, i'min to do two movies. 0:40:07.680 --> 0:40:08.440 Yeah, yeah, no. 0:40:08.520 --> 0:40:12.200 And you have these really gargantuan or iconic creators who 0:40:12.200 --> 0:40:14.040 are still standing up for the art form and doing 0:40:14.480 --> 0:40:17.719 I think, really interesting things. I think what movies the 0:40:17.760 --> 0:40:21.520 way forward is to really use the moviness of the medium, 0:40:21.560 --> 0:40:23.440 like really figure out what it means to have a 0:40:23.480 --> 0:40:26.439 two hour story that said or it would that you're 0:40:26.480 --> 0:40:30.439 forced to sit and not look at your phone during 0:40:30.840 --> 0:40:33.560 And so I think playing with intensity and tempo and 0:40:33.719 --> 0:40:38.600 like suspense and just varying. Yeah, playing with people's attention 0:40:39.280 --> 0:40:41.279 is in a creative way is the way forward. I 0:40:41.280 --> 0:40:43.919 think about a movie like Barbie, or even a movie 0:40:43.920 --> 0:40:47.080 like Oppenheimer, both of those, you know, the Barbenheimer Summer. 0:40:47.719 --> 0:40:48.720 I don't think that was a fluke. 0:40:48.760 --> 0:40:51.840 That was two very different movies that were both edited 0:40:52.120 --> 0:40:55.840 and in a way that was very modern and pacy 0:40:56.000 --> 0:40:59.080 and really could work for people's TikTok brain and keep 0:40:59.160 --> 0:41:02.040 them in their seats, no looging their phone, and really 0:41:02.080 --> 0:41:03.040 on the edge of their seats. 0:41:03.239 --> 0:41:08.799 So Christopher Nolan, I in preparation I had him on 0:41:08.840 --> 0:41:12.800 Meet the Press before for Oppenheimer, and I wanted a screener, 0:41:13.080 --> 0:41:17.200 and he refused to give me a screener. He said, no, however, 0:41:17.320 --> 0:41:21.000 I will set up a special screening in a theater 0:41:21.560 --> 0:41:24.680 that I believe you need to experience this in. And 0:41:25.320 --> 0:41:27.360 you know, I brought the whole staff. We got a 0:41:27.400 --> 0:41:29.680 special meat the press screening. It was fantastic at the 0:41:30.200 --> 0:41:33.880 and I see why he's right, right, it was brilliant 0:41:33.920 --> 0:41:36.000 what he did. He knew he had a tough story 0:41:36.040 --> 0:41:39.520 to tell, and he wanted to keep people's attention. And 0:41:39.560 --> 0:41:42.040 so I dragged at the time my seven sixteen year 0:41:42.040 --> 0:41:44.080 old and my twenty year old and made them both come, 0:41:44.560 --> 0:41:46.799 you know, a good story. And they enjoyed the movie 0:41:46.800 --> 0:41:49.840 more than they thought because it did keep your attention. 0:41:49.960 --> 0:41:56.279 And look, Christopher Nolan is is special, right. It's he 0:41:56.320 --> 0:41:58.880 owns the movies right now, right like we have the 0:41:58.960 --> 0:42:01.760 different you know, John is Quentin Tarantino had to run. 0:42:01.920 --> 0:42:05.040 This is Christopher Nolan, right, Copola had these guys. He 0:42:05.920 --> 0:42:09.040 is the guy that understands how to still break through 0:42:09.040 --> 0:42:12.680 with a movie in this culture which has never been harder. 0:42:13.600 --> 0:42:15.560 Yeah, yeah, I think of him as sort of making 0:42:15.600 --> 0:42:18.560 movies almost like a DJ that makes a DJA set 0:42:18.600 --> 0:42:21.239 you know, he has a real sense of flow and 0:42:21.360 --> 0:42:24.080 just like what the body in the brain needs to 0:42:24.160 --> 0:42:27.480 stay stay in the moment, and he's doing that without 0:42:27.480 --> 0:42:30.040 sacrificing the seriousness of the story or the writing. And 0:42:30.320 --> 0:42:33.319 it's a it's a grumbled thing, and hopefully he's going 0:42:33.360 --> 0:42:35.839 to inspire another generation of filmmakers to do what he's done. 0:42:35.840 --> 0:42:40.320 And question further, all right, let's talk about literature, because 0:42:40.360 --> 0:42:42.239 you know, there's always been the what is it? There's 0:42:42.239 --> 0:42:45.600 only seven plot lines supposedly, right, is. 0:42:45.560 --> 0:42:47.680 That the that's still help them all though? 0:42:48.160 --> 0:42:48.319 Right? 0:42:48.400 --> 0:42:49.120 Yeah? 0:42:48.920 --> 0:42:51.040 Yeah, And it's sort of like because if you really 0:42:51.040 --> 0:42:53.000 wanted to crap on literature, you could say, well, Shakespeare 0:42:53.000 --> 0:42:57.600 did it right. And it's like every novel written has 0:42:57.680 --> 0:42:59.560 some you could sit there and say, well Shakespeare did 0:42:59.600 --> 0:43:01.640 it or the Greeks did it right? You know, whoever 0:43:01.640 --> 0:43:04.680 wrote all these Greek tragedies right type of thing. So 0:43:04.760 --> 0:43:09.960 everything is a derivative. But I would argue we're in 0:43:10.000 --> 0:43:13.040 a golden age because the last thirty years we're getting 0:43:13.040 --> 0:43:17.120 a diversity of writers that that the gatekeepers didn't allow 0:43:17.320 --> 0:43:21.360 into the pool. So I'm curious where you were in 0:43:21.440 --> 0:43:24.239 your in your travels, Where did you where did you 0:43:24.320 --> 0:43:27.239 find culture critics on the issue of literature is it 0:43:27.560 --> 0:43:31.400 are we are we in a an up upswing? Or 0:43:31.800 --> 0:43:33.960 is it all too much derivative? 0:43:35.200 --> 0:43:35.359 Yeah? 0:43:35.400 --> 0:43:37.480 I mean this gets a question that's in my piece 0:43:37.520 --> 0:43:39.800 really in a section more about visual arts, but is 0:43:39.840 --> 0:43:43.120 taking on this question of what happens when your field 0:43:43.280 --> 0:43:48.160 progresses by becoming more diverse, When when, uh, what's changing 0:43:48.160 --> 0:43:50.600 in the medium isn't necessarily the way you tell stories 0:43:50.640 --> 0:43:53.160 or kind of formal innovations, or rather the kinds of 0:43:53.160 --> 0:43:55.120 people that are telling the stories and the kind of 0:43:55.120 --> 0:43:59.799 resources they get, and then who's in those stories and 0:43:59.840 --> 0:44:03.080 it And you're right, it can be invigorating to read 0:44:03.239 --> 0:44:05.520 a murder mystery, you know, that's that's kind of very 0:44:05.520 --> 0:44:09.200 familiar plot but set in a totally different MILLIAU than 0:44:09.239 --> 0:44:11.440 we got in the twentieth century when everything was you know, 0:44:11.719 --> 0:44:12.320 set in U. 0:44:12.640 --> 0:44:15.200 A different antagonist and a different protagonist and all those 0:44:15.200 --> 0:44:22.880 things and gender diversity and different different, different familiar characters 0:44:22.880 --> 0:44:24.680 but different backgrounds. 0:44:25.320 --> 0:44:27.760 Yeah, I mean, to me, I think that's very exciting 0:44:27.800 --> 0:44:31.320 and cool that it does not speak to a super 0:44:31.400 --> 0:44:34.239 robust future for them for the medium. If we're not 0:44:34.280 --> 0:44:37.239 also talking about formal innovation. You know, someone like Tony 0:44:37.360 --> 0:44:40.280 Morrison came along and she you know, she was important 0:44:40.280 --> 0:44:42.160 because of the black female writer, but also because she's 0:44:42.160 --> 0:44:46.160 just such a formally innovative, distinctive voice. And you know, 0:44:46.320 --> 0:44:50.160 one knock that people have on modern fiction right now 0:44:50.239 --> 0:44:53.520 is that there's not as much of an attention to voice. 0:44:53.600 --> 0:44:56.800 There's kind of a kind of cold modernist way of writing, 0:44:56.960 --> 0:45:00.440 and that is being used to render these different stories. 0:45:00.480 --> 0:45:02.919 And that all this said, I'm not a book critic, 0:45:03.040 --> 0:45:04.320 so I can't. 0:45:04.280 --> 0:45:07.719 Know, but but like you know, is literature and one 0:45:07.719 --> 0:45:10.279 of the you know, are we in one of those 0:45:10.320 --> 0:45:13.400 periods where everybody says, everybody the writing sucks. And I 0:45:13.440 --> 0:45:14.800 don't think we're in one of those. 0:45:14.680 --> 0:45:17.120 No, I don't, I don't. I don't think. So. 0:45:17.160 --> 0:45:19.160 I think there's a there's a very robust market for 0:45:19.360 --> 0:45:22.840 like literary fiction that tells these different kinds of stories. 0:45:23.680 --> 0:45:27.759 But you know, there's this feeling that one, kids and 0:45:27.840 --> 0:45:30.600 younger people and even nbple my age are reading less 0:45:31.000 --> 0:45:34.440 and and uh have less of attention for a novel. 0:45:34.480 --> 0:45:36.840 And so that's that doesn't speak all the future of 0:45:36.920 --> 0:45:37.880 the medium. 0:45:38.080 --> 0:45:40.600 But you also have the graphic novels are taking off. 0:45:41.440 --> 0:45:44.000 Yes, yeah, and you have you have short stories and 0:45:44.160 --> 0:45:47.239 serialized fiction being published on platforms like substack, and that 0:45:47.320 --> 0:45:49.680 seems to actually be a source of a lot of energy. 0:45:49.760 --> 0:45:52.839 Right now, that's interesting. I hadn't picked up on that. 0:45:53.000 --> 0:45:56.760 So basically the way Dickens released his books is back. 0:45:57.520 --> 0:45:59.160 Yes, I think that. I think that's opening. 0:45:59.239 --> 0:46:04.280 Yeah, that's fascinating. Now let's talk about the visual arts, 0:46:04.840 --> 0:46:07.640 and I guess whether sculpture, painting, that's where I want 0:46:07.640 --> 0:46:14.319 to go here, multimedia, I guess is that a are 0:46:14.320 --> 0:46:16.600 we in a mature place when you look at it, 0:46:16.680 --> 0:46:19.600 Like you know, at first it was about trying to 0:46:20.239 --> 0:46:24.400 Artists were trying to do their best job to replicate 0:46:24.480 --> 0:46:27.520 what humans were seeing. Then we got the photograph, so 0:46:27.600 --> 0:46:30.360 that then we got the Salvador Dolly, hey, let me 0:46:30.440 --> 0:46:34.080 warp it, right, That's what that's what created because in 0:46:34.120 --> 0:46:35.960 some ways we already have the photograph. I know what 0:46:36.000 --> 0:46:38.960 it looks like. Let's have a melting clock, right when 0:46:39.080 --> 0:46:45.480 that be interesting? Then we had a movement of public 0:46:45.600 --> 0:46:48.279 art works like I in Miami, I had the guy 0:46:48.320 --> 0:46:50.760 I can't remember his name who decided to put pink 0:46:50.800 --> 0:46:53.000 aprons around all the islands of Miami. 0:46:53.760 --> 0:46:56.120 Frankly, it was really cool. This was in the eighties 0:46:56.160 --> 0:46:56.399 and it. 0:46:56.360 --> 0:46:58.600 Was the first one of these he's I forget the 0:46:58.640 --> 0:47:03.160 guy's name, he's done this, Yes, Chrysto, thank you. And 0:47:03.200 --> 0:47:06.360 that was a thing. And then we've backed off a 0:47:06.400 --> 0:47:09.080 little bit on public art. So where are we there? 0:47:09.239 --> 0:47:10.160 Is this a it? 0:47:11.320 --> 0:47:14.319 And are we in a And I wonder if our 0:47:14.360 --> 0:47:19.600 ability to perfectly show pictures now based on you know, 0:47:20.239 --> 0:47:25.319 makes that art harder to innovate with. 0:47:26.560 --> 0:47:31.120 Yeah, we're inundated with images now and you know, things 0:47:31.160 --> 0:47:34.920 like AI can show you anything and very quickly. Where 0:47:36.120 --> 0:47:38.920 I think that, I think that that visual arts are 0:47:39.000 --> 0:47:41.240 getting a run for their money just from the Internet. 0:47:41.280 --> 0:47:43.399 You know, we are looking at visual art all day long. 0:47:43.719 --> 0:47:46.920 But it's memes, it's tiktoks, it's uh yeah, it's AI 0:47:47.080 --> 0:47:51.480 art and the gallery scene and the art museum scene. 0:47:51.480 --> 0:47:53.719 From my understanding, just the past couple of years, there's 0:47:54.320 --> 0:47:58.239 most critics agree that it's pretty stale and stagnant. A 0:47:58.239 --> 0:48:01.440 lot of the galleries are facing financial hardships, are closing, 0:48:02.560 --> 0:48:04.799 and there's people are kind of looking around for what's 0:48:04.800 --> 0:48:07.920 the next thing going to be? And I would imagine 0:48:07.960 --> 0:48:11.600 it's going to have to be from artists engaging with 0:48:11.680 --> 0:48:14.480 that with their competition on the Internet and finding a 0:48:14.520 --> 0:48:21.319 way to elevate this kind of tumble of images in 0:48:21.360 --> 0:48:22.799 a way that feels new, And I don't really know 0:48:22.840 --> 0:48:23.640 exactly what that's going to. 0:48:23.680 --> 0:48:27.200 Look, right, That's what I'm curious, Like, if he came 0:48:27.239 --> 0:48:28.919 back to life today, what would he be doing. 0:48:29.640 --> 0:48:33.399 I mean, we've had those those We've had people print 0:48:33.480 --> 0:48:36.160 up pictures of Instagram and put them on gallery walls. 0:48:36.200 --> 0:48:38.279 You know, that was a fad like ten years ago, 0:48:38.360 --> 0:48:41.480 and we're already past that. So I don't I'm not sure. 0:48:41.760 --> 0:48:42.360 I'm not sure. 0:48:42.680 --> 0:48:46.120 I feel like the one the most interesting is the 0:48:46.120 --> 0:48:48.880 public space is art in the public space. But I 0:48:49.040 --> 0:48:52.480 I that that's where at least you can because then 0:48:52.560 --> 0:48:55.520 it's experiential, I guess, and then let me, I guess 0:48:55.560 --> 0:48:58.040 that's where I'd like to go. Finally, the fact that 0:48:58.080 --> 0:49:02.120 we crave experiences, is that going to be the most 0:49:02.160 --> 0:49:06.239 innovative art form for maybe the next for gen Z, 0:49:06.440 --> 0:49:07.360 for the next generation. 0:49:08.400 --> 0:49:10.520 I think that's going to be part of the story 0:49:10.880 --> 0:49:14.600 where both you have such excitement right now for concerts 0:49:14.640 --> 0:49:17.960 and live events. You know, the biggest entertainment event of 0:49:18.000 --> 0:49:20.080 the past two years with Together Swipt's tour, and then 0:49:20.120 --> 0:49:22.680 there's been many other tours where you just can't get 0:49:22.680 --> 0:49:25.279 a ticket and people are just It changes the local 0:49:25.320 --> 0:49:28.600 economy as these tours move through, and the energy is 0:49:28.640 --> 0:49:31.360 a bit different than it used to be, And presumably 0:49:31.480 --> 0:49:34.279 that's because these fans want to get out of their 0:49:34.280 --> 0:49:36.600 bedrooms and be with each other and experience of real 0:49:36.640 --> 0:49:39.560 life thing the only thing that you can't really duplicate online. 0:49:40.080 --> 0:49:43.440 So I think that mentality you're going to see and 0:49:43.480 --> 0:49:47.520 already are seeing play out in different be capitalized on 0:49:47.600 --> 0:49:48.440 in different mediums. 0:49:48.480 --> 0:49:52.680 You know, the immersive art exhibit. 0:49:53.080 --> 0:49:55.799 You know, things like the immersive van goes that pop 0:49:55.920 --> 0:49:58.239 up in these different cities, or like the Museum of 0:49:58.239 --> 0:50:01.000 ice Cream, which is essentially like a adult playpen where 0:50:01.040 --> 0:50:03.520 you take instagrams of yourself. They have a bad rap 0:50:03.960 --> 0:50:07.879 as being sort of like Instagram bait, but I think 0:50:07.920 --> 0:50:12.440 there has to be a future for really interesting artists 0:50:12.480 --> 0:50:17.360 creating immersive exhibits that you really can't duplicate online. I 0:50:17.360 --> 0:50:18.759 think we are going to see a lot of cool 0:50:18.760 --> 0:50:19.359 things come out. 0:50:19.280 --> 0:50:22.960 Of that, all right, So I went back and looked 0:50:22.960 --> 0:50:26.840 for the different sort of iconic with to help a 0:50:26.880 --> 0:50:30.319 little research help there with our friends at AI, what 0:50:30.360 --> 0:50:33.359 are the different cultural critiques of the different decades? And 0:50:33.440 --> 0:50:36.000 it surfaced up a Tom Wolf piece about the ME 0:50:36.120 --> 0:50:39.680 decade and the Third Great Awakening that was we were 0:50:39.719 --> 0:50:43.280 the seventies were very narcissistic and me centered. The eighties 0:50:43.360 --> 0:50:47.279 it was are we entertained to death? Which seems like, boy, 0:50:47.360 --> 0:50:49.280 that's don't we wish we had that problem? 0:50:49.360 --> 0:50:50.719 Right? Isn't that the same. 0:50:52.120 --> 0:50:57.200 The nineties The Key the Fraying of America a criticism 0:50:57.280 --> 0:51:01.680 written by Robert Hughes, The culture of complaint, beginning of 0:51:01.719 --> 0:51:05.319 polarization essentially was starting. Then political correctness started to pop 0:51:05.400 --> 0:51:08.839 up a lot there in the nineties. So if your 0:51:08.920 --> 0:51:12.040 piece ages well, it will be because and if your 0:51:12.080 --> 0:51:14.280 piece doesn't age well, it'll be because. 0:51:16.000 --> 0:51:18.600 If my piece doesn't age well, it's probably because I 0:51:18.640 --> 0:51:19.879 didn't talk about AI enough. 0:51:20.000 --> 0:51:22.560 And I feel like, really at the beginning of the 0:51:22.600 --> 0:51:27.120 AI moments and that it will upend everything. 0:51:27.160 --> 0:51:28.759 And I talk about a bit in the piece and 0:51:29.160 --> 0:51:30.040 really the fear. 0:51:29.840 --> 0:51:34.120 That this overwhelming abundance of slop and the ability to 0:51:34.160 --> 0:51:38.440 just create background music, music and art that kind of 0:51:38.480 --> 0:51:41.200 feels like things you've experienced before, and then you can 0:51:41.239 --> 0:51:44.840 kind of passively enjoy. That's going to create real competition 0:51:45.080 --> 0:51:49.880 for actual human artists and undermine the creative energy in 0:51:49.880 --> 0:51:50.400 our society. 0:51:50.480 --> 0:51:52.560 I mean, let me play the free marketer here. Let 0:51:52.560 --> 0:51:57.080 me play free market pushback. Competition usually makes for more innovation, 0:51:57.840 --> 0:52:02.000 and so maybe we know the AI slop may only 0:52:02.320 --> 0:52:03.719 stretch human boundaries. 0:52:04.840 --> 0:52:05.960 That's true, that's true. 0:52:06.320 --> 0:52:08.640 I think that the best things that we will still 0:52:08.640 --> 0:52:11.200 have some examples of excellence that come out of that. 0:52:11.280 --> 0:52:15.120 But it's very hard to create great things when you're 0:52:15.120 --> 0:52:19.440 trying to serve, when you have, when you can't survive, 0:52:19.520 --> 0:52:21.520 when you can make a living, and when you're not 0:52:21.560 --> 0:52:23.920 in a creative community of other people that are inspiring you. 0:52:24.200 --> 0:52:26.359 And all these courses are eating away at those things. 0:52:26.400 --> 0:52:30.040 And so that's I think the greatest cause for fear. 0:52:31.840 --> 0:52:33.879 You were saying that in your piece, and I thought 0:52:33.920 --> 0:52:35.160 that was an excellent point. 0:52:35.200 --> 0:52:37.680 I just think about. 0:52:38.440 --> 0:52:41.400 Universities these days, in colleges, and the and the and 0:52:41.480 --> 0:52:46.240 the and how parents are discouraging their kids from majoring 0:52:46.320 --> 0:52:51.920 in anything that isn't directly about a job right or income. 0:52:53.480 --> 0:52:57.279 And so your art literature majors, your sculpture majors. Your 0:52:57.360 --> 0:53:01.800 music majors are going to be fewer and fewer because 0:53:01.800 --> 0:53:04.160 it'll feel like, quote unquote, why am I spending all 0:53:04.200 --> 0:53:07.960 this money for you to become really good at a hobby? 0:53:08.880 --> 0:53:10.800 And you know, because it is hard. 0:53:10.960 --> 0:53:12.520 I mean, look, I was a music major for a 0:53:12.520 --> 0:53:15.520 while and I came to the conclusion that I wasn't 0:53:15.600 --> 0:53:19.520 good enough to be a professional musician and I don't 0:53:19.960 --> 0:53:23.320 and I wasn't, you know, I didn't. There are plenty 0:53:23.320 --> 0:53:24.799 of other ways to make a living in music, and 0:53:24.840 --> 0:53:27.160 I didn't want to do those things right that that 0:53:27.360 --> 0:53:29.000 was not you know, I want. I had one goal. 0:53:29.040 --> 0:53:36.120 I couldn't get it, and so I changed lengths. But 0:53:36.120 --> 0:53:39.200 but that is something that I was wondering about that 0:53:39.560 --> 0:53:43.080 we won't We're not going to have artists colonies, right, 0:53:43.120 --> 0:53:46.560 We're not going to have music schools. We may not 0:53:46.680 --> 0:53:49.720 have and and if you don't, then we may limit 0:53:49.760 --> 0:53:52.400 the number and AI may even make people think we 0:53:52.400 --> 0:53:54.120 don't need as many of them type of things. 0:53:54.200 --> 0:53:55.200 So I that. 0:53:55.080 --> 0:53:59.040 Does feel like a potential that's on the doomier side 0:53:59.080 --> 0:53:59.920 of things, isn't it. 0:54:00.680 --> 0:54:03.200 Yeah, But we could all make a decision of society 0:54:03.200 --> 0:54:05.200 to do something about that, and we invest in art 0:54:05.200 --> 0:54:08.480 schools and say that human made art is a cultural 0:54:08.480 --> 0:54:12.319 priority or even like a political priority. I don't think 0:54:12.480 --> 0:54:14.880 that's going to happen anytime soon, but doesn't feel like 0:54:14.880 --> 0:54:18.120 we're living in that era that I agree with you 0:54:18.200 --> 0:54:21.520 that we will have our Look, there's a reason we 0:54:21.560 --> 0:54:23.360 call them enlightening periods, this or that. 0:54:23.520 --> 0:54:25.399 I mean, you know. 0:54:27.520 --> 0:54:30.520 We are Civilization is cyclical, right, so I have no 0:54:30.640 --> 0:54:32.880 doubt we'll have a period where we'll. 0:54:32.719 --> 0:54:34.520 Want to reinvest in the arts. The question is win. 0:54:35.360 --> 0:54:38.560 Yeah, yeah, I mean I think that, you know, despite 0:54:38.600 --> 0:54:40.759 all these forces that we're talking about, these kind of 0:54:41.080 --> 0:54:44.160 structural downers, if I want to end the piece on 0:54:44.160 --> 0:54:45.920 a positive note, and I do think they're just an 0:54:45.920 --> 0:54:49.160 incredible amount of creativity that's happening now. And it's not 0:54:49.320 --> 0:54:51.080 just in these art forms that we're talking about, but 0:54:51.120 --> 0:54:54.480 it's also in podcasts, and it's in video games, and 0:54:54.040 --> 0:54:57.040 it's on TikTok, and it's in means. And we have 0:54:57.120 --> 0:55:00.759 a harder way of talking about and appreciating and even 0:55:00.800 --> 0:55:04.400 knowing what excellence means in those in those mediums. 0:55:04.440 --> 0:55:06.680 But I hope that as you. 0:55:06.640 --> 0:55:08.960 Know, as we progress in this direction, where there's so 0:55:09.080 --> 0:55:12.840 much possibility and so many different ways for getting your 0:55:13.360 --> 0:55:15.560 art out, and so many different ways to find something 0:55:15.600 --> 0:55:18.839 that really strikes you and to connect over it. I 0:55:18.960 --> 0:55:20.920 do think that we're going to get better at understanding 0:55:21.000 --> 0:55:23.320 what creativity looks like in this environment. 0:55:23.640 --> 0:55:25.440 You know, it's interesting you just brought up gaming, and 0:55:25.480 --> 0:55:27.160 we didn't talk about that as a as a sort 0:55:27.200 --> 0:55:30.640 of a genre of culture. It's a it's a gigantic 0:55:30.680 --> 0:55:35.799 genre of culture, right, It's it's hugely so is sports, right, 0:55:35.880 --> 0:55:38.840 and we've never and look at the growth of more sports. 0:55:38.880 --> 0:55:41.080 I mean, one of my favorite stats is that there 0:55:41.080 --> 0:55:44.200 are more youth cricket clubs in New York City than 0:55:44.200 --> 0:55:48.520 there are Little league baseball teams. And yes, that's how 0:55:48.640 --> 0:55:51.960 quickly the Southeast Asian population is growing and cricket is 0:55:52.000 --> 0:55:54.879 becoming more popular. That's just cricket. And I could make 0:55:54.880 --> 0:55:57.920 this lacrosse is now a nation nationwide sport. Where so 0:55:58.920 --> 0:56:02.239 I guess sometimes when you when you you know, is 0:56:02.280 --> 0:56:03.960 this the worst air of America pop culture? 0:56:03.960 --> 0:56:06.920 Well, in sports? Has it ever been more diverse? 0:56:08.360 --> 0:56:12.840 Perhaps not, but sports just becoming a subset of gambling 0:56:12.880 --> 0:56:16.640 and addiction and you know, dopamine chasing do the legalization 0:56:16.680 --> 0:56:17.400 of sports betting. 0:56:18.360 --> 0:56:19.240 That's what as well. 0:56:19.520 --> 0:56:22.600 I hear you there, but let me let me so. 0:56:22.680 --> 0:56:24.200 One of the reasons why I ended up at music 0:56:24.280 --> 0:56:25.920 major is my father is like, hey, it'll help you 0:56:25.920 --> 0:56:28.759 pay for school, and it did. I got a frenchworn scholarship, right, 0:56:28.760 --> 0:56:31.680 That's how I don't. I don't go to GW without it. 0:56:33.160 --> 0:56:36.520 Sports is now that path. Now it's like a real 0:56:36.680 --> 0:56:39.040 in the same way music was a realistic path for 0:56:39.080 --> 0:56:43.120 your ten to fifteen percent of musicians. Now sports will 0:56:43.160 --> 0:56:45.600 be to pay for college is a ten to fifteen percent. 0:56:45.640 --> 0:56:47.400 It's not a one percent chance anymore. Because it's not 0:56:47.440 --> 0:56:50.520 just football or basketball, not just boys, right it is. 0:56:51.200 --> 0:56:56.040 There's twelve or thirteen different sports. And so I throw 0:56:56.040 --> 0:56:59.200 that in there because it it's part of pop culture. 0:56:59.719 --> 0:57:01.759 But it was it. But I think we don't. 0:57:02.160 --> 0:57:04.959 I think older generations don't think of it that way yet. 0:57:05.880 --> 0:57:07.600 Yeah, I think you're right, and I think you know, 0:57:07.800 --> 0:57:10.720 and just my day to experience, people are as obsessed 0:57:10.719 --> 0:57:13.400 with sports as they've ever been. It kind of feels 0:57:13.400 --> 0:57:17.200 like it's blending the same things that make people obsessed 0:57:17.200 --> 0:57:19.560 with Tayer Swift is making people obsessed with you know, 0:57:19.600 --> 0:57:20.600 the white sox or whatever. 0:57:20.760 --> 0:57:23.560 Don't you think it's because it's reality, because it's something 0:57:23.600 --> 0:57:26.400 that doesn't feel like you can manipulate or manufacture. 0:57:26.720 --> 0:57:27.120 I don't know. 0:57:27.240 --> 0:57:29.960 There's a meritocracy to it, right, like there are a 0:57:30.000 --> 0:57:32.960 rule I don't I've been wondering this myself. Why are 0:57:32.960 --> 0:57:36.840 we having this? Or it's also the thing that's least polarizing, right, 0:57:36.840 --> 0:57:39.960 there's no left versus right, you know as much? 0:57:41.040 --> 0:57:43.960 I know, Yeah, you're right, we've had. 0:57:44.040 --> 0:57:48.320 It's not like, lease, now, yeah, have we politicized college 0:57:48.360 --> 0:57:48.960 sports at all? 0:57:49.040 --> 0:57:49.240 Now? 0:57:50.040 --> 0:57:52.520 I take the minute I said it, right, You're like, 0:57:52.720 --> 0:57:56.360 I should reel those words back in. But I think 0:57:56.400 --> 0:57:59.720 the aspiration for sports is that it's not that it 0:57:59.720 --> 0:58:02.120 can bring people together rather than polarize. 0:58:02.680 --> 0:58:05.760 Well, I think fandom is one of the last kinds 0:58:05.760 --> 0:58:08.360 of social glue that we can rely on in the 0:58:08.440 --> 0:58:11.320 time when everyone is so isolated on their phones, not 0:58:11.360 --> 0:58:14.800 going into the physical world as much. The one thing 0:58:14.840 --> 0:58:18.000 that can bridge the physical world and the digital world 0:58:18.360 --> 0:58:20.400 in a social way is being a fan of something, 0:58:20.400 --> 0:58:23.680 whether that's a pop star or a sports team. 0:58:23.800 --> 0:58:25.400 All right, let me get you out of here on this. 0:58:27.160 --> 0:58:30.400 Who's the king of pop ha haha. Or the king 0:58:30.440 --> 0:58:32.360 of quator pop is that Taylor Swift right now? 0:58:33.600 --> 0:58:37.320 Right now, it's Taylor Swift right now, so Swift, but 0:58:37.960 --> 0:58:42.160 maybe you put Bad Bunny would be the king that is. Yeah, 0:58:42.200 --> 0:58:45.640 he's as big as anyone basically in terms of album 0:58:45.680 --> 0:58:49.320 sales and all that. You know, someone like Drake he 0:58:49.360 --> 0:58:51.360 would have pointed to a few years ago. He's fallen 0:58:51.400 --> 0:58:54.560 off a little bit. Yeah, but Bad Buddy kind of 0:58:54.560 --> 0:59:00.440 represents this the kind of global incursion of pop, global 0:59:00.480 --> 0:59:04.000 pop becoming just pop or pop from outside of America 0:59:04.040 --> 0:59:06.720 being able to be as central as any American or 0:59:06.760 --> 0:59:09.640 English speaking star would be. And his music is this 0:59:09.720 --> 0:59:13.080 amalgam of not just you know, his influence is from 0:59:13.080 --> 0:59:15.680 Puerto Rico, but it's American hip hop, and it's all 0:59:15.680 --> 0:59:17.080 sorts of global sounds are in there. 0:59:17.760 --> 0:59:19.880 And if I asked you who rules Hollywood, what would 0:59:19.920 --> 0:59:21.240 be the first couple of names you'd say? 0:59:22.640 --> 0:59:27.240 I mean, we talked, we talked about Chris Nolan. You know, 0:59:27.280 --> 0:59:32.480 it feels like Disney is actually it's Disney's on the 0:59:32.560 --> 0:59:35.280 back foot and has kind of lost some of its 0:59:35.760 --> 0:59:39.160 power or kind of it was the monolith that was 0:59:39.280 --> 0:59:42.600 ruling culture for the past ten or fifteen years, but 0:59:42.640 --> 0:59:45.080 it seems to have stumbled a little bit. So I 0:59:45.080 --> 0:59:47.560 think that it's actually kind of an upper grabs moment 0:59:47.560 --> 0:59:51.360 on Hollywood. So something like something like Ryan Cooler's Sinners 0:59:51.400 --> 0:59:55.560 being such a hip that's an example of how there's 0:59:55.600 --> 0:59:57.680 maybe some space opening up in these kind of like 0:59:58.200 --> 1:00:00.880 innovative Blockbuster that's not just a sequel. We're seeing a 1:00:00.880 --> 1:00:02.800 couple We've seen a couple examples of those sort of 1:00:02.800 --> 1:00:04.880 things pop up over the past few years, and I 1:00:04.880 --> 1:00:07.840 think it's I think Hollywood is generally in a pretty 1:00:07.880 --> 1:00:11.080 bad place, but in out of that badness some interesting 1:00:11.880 --> 1:00:13.720 high high they're going to jump out of that. 1:00:14.440 --> 1:00:16.920 Is there a king and Queen of Hollywood that you 1:00:16.920 --> 1:00:18.880 could point to right now? I mean, who would have that? 1:00:19.120 --> 1:00:21.480 Who would be sitting in those chairs if you if 1:00:21.520 --> 1:00:24.280 you had to, if you had to, if you did 1:00:24.280 --> 1:00:25.840 a rotten Tomato survey. 1:00:26.160 --> 1:00:30.480 Well, I don't know if you did a rotten tomatoes survey, 1:00:30.600 --> 1:00:32.400 but I would put no a Wiley from the pit. 1:00:32.480 --> 1:00:34.640 It would be the King. Yeah, because I'm obsessed with 1:00:34.640 --> 1:00:35.320 that show right now. 1:00:37.120 --> 1:00:41.280 By the way, one thing about is rotten tomatoes good 1:00:41.400 --> 1:00:43.360 or bad for innovative for culture. 1:00:44.480 --> 1:00:47.800 I don't think it's very I don't think it's very 1:00:47.800 --> 1:00:51.200 good because it's it's put a number on subjective. 1:00:53.360 --> 1:00:54.360 The determinations. 1:00:54.400 --> 1:00:57.960 You know, I was obsessed with Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic 1:00:58.000 --> 1:01:00.720 when I was growing up, or like you know, wanted 1:01:01.280 --> 1:01:05.120 with an aspiring critic. But lately it feels like those 1:01:05.120 --> 1:01:07.720 platforms that have come really gamified, like people are kind 1:01:07.720 --> 1:01:11.160 of manipulating, And you know, maybe it's. 1:01:11.080 --> 1:01:14.120 My biggest beef about aggregating polls, Like I'm not I 1:01:14.200 --> 1:01:16.160 like Nate Silber, but I don't like what he does 1:01:16.200 --> 1:01:19.520 with numbers. I like, you know, real clear politics for politics. 1:01:19.560 --> 1:01:22.360 It drove me crazy. I'm like, no, I'm not taking 1:01:22.400 --> 1:01:25.480 good and bad and mixing them in a blender. I 1:01:25.520 --> 1:01:28.320 know the good pollsters, I know the bad pollsters, Rotten Tomato, 1:01:28.560 --> 1:01:31.080 you know the good critics, and you know the bad critics. 1:01:31.120 --> 1:01:32.520 Why are we putting them all in a blender. 1:01:33.320 --> 1:01:35.680 Yeah, there's a lot of perverse incentives in that system, 1:01:35.760 --> 1:01:38.840 and also has created this thing among movie fans, which 1:01:39.480 --> 1:01:43.680 which is an obsession with kind of yeah metrics. They're 1:01:43.680 --> 1:01:46.080 acting like sports fans in a lot of ways. I 1:01:46.120 --> 1:01:49.240 see some pop music too, where music fans are so 1:01:49.360 --> 1:01:53.280 obsessed with sales numbers and how their their diva is 1:01:53.480 --> 1:01:56.200 charting and comparison to their rival. And I don't think 1:01:56.240 --> 1:01:58.760 that was a wide started phenomenon a few decades ago. 1:01:58.840 --> 1:02:01.880 It's it's it's sort of like money qualification of life 1:02:02.320 --> 1:02:05.840 that I think it makes people talk less about creativity 1:02:05.840 --> 1:02:08.360 and art and more about yeah, money. 1:02:09.000 --> 1:02:12.680 We've gone almost as long as the article. Uh, if 1:02:12.680 --> 1:02:14.120 you listen to the article, So I want to be 1:02:14.120 --> 1:02:18.080 careful there. But one one area I didn't bring up 1:02:18.080 --> 1:02:20.840 that I actually meant to because I think we've seen 1:02:20.880 --> 1:02:25.280 some innovation maybe, but is musical theater and Broadway in 1:02:25.360 --> 1:02:29.000 general and live theater? And I guess maybe is that 1:02:29.160 --> 1:02:31.600 do we put that in this experiential bucket? I feel 1:02:31.600 --> 1:02:34.240 like it's having a moment again, right, And and lin 1:02:34.320 --> 1:02:36.480 Manuel Miranda told us that, hey, you can still do 1:02:36.560 --> 1:02:39.080 new things. I think some people thought that that was 1:02:39.080 --> 1:02:42.120 a mature I certainly did that, hey, that's that's a 1:02:42.160 --> 1:02:45.840 mature genre. And he said, no, it's not. Let me 1:02:45.880 --> 1:02:46.520 try something. 1:02:46.960 --> 1:02:48.480 So what do we what? 1:02:48.680 --> 1:02:50.360 Hamilton's ten years old? What's that? 1:02:50.440 --> 1:02:53.280 You're right, yeah it is. Isn't it okay to me? 1:02:53.480 --> 1:02:57.440 To me that Broadway is not not a healthy sign. 1:02:57.840 --> 1:02:59.360 And to me, and you know I live in New York, 1:03:00.400 --> 1:03:02.160 is a stunt cast revival of something. 1:03:02.200 --> 1:03:06.360 You're right, they're doing what the movies do. They're doing like, hey, look, 1:03:06.440 --> 1:03:07.200 Marvel Universe. 1:03:07.840 --> 1:03:10.680 You know, I didn't get to see a DNA menzilk 1:03:10.760 --> 1:03:12.120 climbing that tree. That that one. 1:03:12.120 --> 1:03:14.040 But that looks cool, But I guess it's closing. It 1:03:14.040 --> 1:03:14.800 didn't do all enough. 1:03:14.920 --> 1:03:17.960 So I learned from an interview I did with the 1:03:18.080 --> 1:03:21.920 UH with the with Debora kan Of the Diplomatic, creator 1:03:21.960 --> 1:03:23.920 of The Diplomat, and she worked for Aaron Sorkin that 1:03:24.040 --> 1:03:28.480 West Wing is musical theater that actually that it's designed. 1:03:28.480 --> 1:03:30.640 And I said, are you going to well, why haven't 1:03:30.640 --> 1:03:31.880 we seen West Wing on Broadway? 1:03:31.960 --> 1:03:32.880 She goes, well, we might. 1:03:34.680 --> 1:03:36.480 They're going to try to put everything they can on 1:03:36.520 --> 1:03:38.520 Broadway and most things will wash out, but a couple 1:03:38.560 --> 1:03:39.160 of them will stick. 1:03:39.240 --> 1:03:41.560 But this gets to the whole that this is why, 1:03:41.560 --> 1:03:43.400 I guess and we should end on this, which is 1:03:43.840 --> 1:03:48.840 that live in person experiential that that's probably we're the 1:03:48.840 --> 1:03:53.440 most where we'll see cultural innovation in the near term. 1:03:54.120 --> 1:03:55.920 I think that I think that's a big part of it, 1:03:55.960 --> 1:03:58.320 But I really think more action will be just what's 1:03:58.320 --> 1:04:01.480 happening on our phones and people using you know, the 1:04:01.560 --> 1:04:05.480 back of now is probably going to be someone doing 1:04:05.560 --> 1:04:09.200 something really interesting with George form video I found. I 1:04:09.240 --> 1:04:11.360 can't point to who that is yet, and I hope 1:04:11.360 --> 1:04:14.400 that we're gonna all find the Beyonce of Tiktoks soon 1:04:14.520 --> 1:04:15.160 or something like that. 1:04:15.880 --> 1:04:17.760 Well, mister Beasts might have something to say about that 1:04:17.760 --> 1:04:22.080 before will not even I won't introduce that into the chat. 1:04:22.240 --> 1:04:25.959 You know, we'll let that go. Pencer, this is great. 1:04:26.040 --> 1:04:27.120 Thanks for humoring me and this. 1:04:27.880 --> 1:04:32.200 Thanks, Chuck, really appreciate it. And keep streaming those six services. 1:04:33.040 --> 1:04:36.240 Yes, well, because somebody's got to keep them in business. 1:04:35.920 --> 1:04:44.400 Right, exactly, exactly, all. 1:04:44.400 --> 1:04:47.240 Right, Now you've found out how many music sites I 1:04:47.280 --> 1:04:47.920 subscribe to. 1:04:48.040 --> 1:04:48.920 But yes, it. 1:04:48.960 --> 1:04:53.400 Drives me crazy. My war on algorithms. Algorithms are what 1:04:53.560 --> 1:04:58.280 poison culture. Human beings are what create culture. But we 1:04:58.320 --> 1:05:01.680 all know this, right, all right, let's do a little 1:05:01.720 --> 1:05:08.440 last Chuck, ask Chuck. All right, first question comes from 1:05:08.600 --> 1:05:12.400 Gary of newberry Port, Massachusetts or defense and security experts 1:05:12.400 --> 1:05:15.080 concerned about the Trump Administration's pushed to have European countries 1:05:15.480 --> 1:05:18.760 increase their defense budgets for the past eighty years. Having 1:05:18.800 --> 1:05:21.600 the US Service the continents to facto security force seemed 1:05:21.600 --> 1:05:24.080 to be a key factor in the prolonged piece the 1:05:24.160 --> 1:05:27.000 region is seen given their centuries long history of conflict 1:05:27.240 --> 1:05:29.560 when there is no backstop and terif related changes in 1:05:29.600 --> 1:05:33.720 global trade connections and alliances. Should the world be nervous 1:05:33.760 --> 1:05:37.600 about a more heavily armed Europe? Well, Gary, I feel like, 1:05:37.760 --> 1:05:40.160 are you asking a question or are you really making 1:05:40.200 --> 1:05:46.439 a statement? Because yes, I think we know. I say 1:05:46.440 --> 1:05:50.640 this mostly tongue in cheek, but a little bit nervous. 1:05:50.720 --> 1:05:55.440 I mean, the last time Germany was able to rearm, 1:05:55.480 --> 1:05:56.040 how did that. 1:05:55.960 --> 1:05:56.880 Go for Europe? 1:05:57.440 --> 1:06:02.120 Right, we're now going to put France is thinking about 1:06:02.120 --> 1:06:04.560 putting it spreading its nuclear weapons all over the continent. 1:06:04.600 --> 1:06:05.960 Maybe that's not a bad idea. 1:06:06.000 --> 1:06:08.040 The more you have them in different countries, maybe that 1:06:08.080 --> 1:06:12.480 does sort of potentially keep an uneasy peace right, sort 1:06:12.520 --> 1:06:18.040 of the mad mantra mutual assured destruction. But look, this 1:06:18.120 --> 1:06:23.960 is you know, the this is what bothers me about 1:06:24.040 --> 1:06:26.080 sort of. So on one hand, Trump wants to be 1:06:27.480 --> 1:06:31.440 the pre eminent power of the world. Well, we are 1:06:31.440 --> 1:06:31.800 the pre. 1:06:31.720 --> 1:06:32.920 Eminent power of the world. 1:06:33.120 --> 1:06:35.400 And one of the reasons we are is because we 1:06:35.640 --> 1:06:39.520 are the security defense for Europe heartstop. 1:06:40.080 --> 1:06:41.040 We are that umbrella. 1:06:41.640 --> 1:06:45.320 We basically are in charge of securing two continents, North 1:06:45.360 --> 1:06:48.880 America and arguably that means we basically are going to 1:06:48.960 --> 1:06:53.560 protect South America, although that hasn't fully fully been premise, 1:06:53.600 --> 1:06:58.560 hasn't been tested, and Europe. Right, so two and a 1:06:58.600 --> 1:07:03.840 half continents we're providing security for. That's nobody else. That's 1:07:04.400 --> 1:07:07.560 that's a super duper power. So we want to give 1:07:07.560 --> 1:07:10.520 that up, right, There's Look, there's always been a movement 1:07:10.560 --> 1:07:12.520 on the right, the sort of the isolationist wing of 1:07:12.560 --> 1:07:16.320 the party, clearly where jad Vance comes from. Trump basically 1:07:16.400 --> 1:07:18.240 has stumbled into that part of it. You know, I 1:07:18.240 --> 1:07:21.160 don't think he's naturally thinks this way. I think he 1:07:21.280 --> 1:07:23.240 just sort of he is just at the end of 1:07:23.280 --> 1:07:27.040 the day, transactional and binary. So he ends up in 1:07:27.080 --> 1:07:29.880 that category. I think Vance is more of a true 1:07:29.880 --> 1:07:33.240 believer in the sort of isolationism, if you will, or 1:07:33.360 --> 1:07:36.200 sort of let let everybody manage their own affairs and 1:07:36.280 --> 1:07:39.000 let's see what happens. The fact is that it hasn't 1:07:39.040 --> 1:07:40.760 worked for the globe. Right, that is not a way 1:07:40.760 --> 1:07:42.600 to keep peace. That is not a way to keep security. 1:07:42.640 --> 1:07:47.080 So look, I'm not sure it's a good it's a 1:07:47.080 --> 1:07:49.760 good move. I think it makes America less secure, and 1:07:49.760 --> 1:07:52.280 I think it makes the world less secure, pure and simple, 1:07:53.320 --> 1:07:56.320 all right, Matt w Wright, you are one hundred percent 1:07:56.360 --> 1:07:58.080 correct about doubling the size of the house, but it 1:07:58.120 --> 1:08:00.560 will remain gridlocked if that's all we change our first 1:08:00.600 --> 1:08:03.360 past the post elections give us the two parties and 1:08:03.400 --> 1:08:06.160 the resulting incentives to resist compromise. In your episode with 1:08:06.240 --> 1:08:09.520 Rob sand he advocated for approval voting and open primaries. 1:08:09.560 --> 1:08:12.520 I like that idea, but I prefer ranked approval voting. 1:08:12.720 --> 1:08:16.000 The candidate with the highest approval score moves on wins. 1:08:16.280 --> 1:08:18.719 I'm not a fan of what traditionally gets called ranked 1:08:18.840 --> 1:08:22.200 choice voting, i e. Automatic runoff voting. It's barely any 1:08:22.200 --> 1:08:25.040 better than first past the post. What is your preferred 1:08:25.120 --> 1:08:28.599 voting method that would break the two parties into four 1:08:28.680 --> 1:08:32.040 plus competitive parties with the incentive to compromise in Washington? 1:08:32.400 --> 1:08:36.000 Would you consider advocating for that system as vociferously as 1:08:36.000 --> 1:08:38.839 for open primaries and for doubling the size of the house. 1:08:39.880 --> 1:08:43.000 Love the show, Thank you, and thank you. For listening. Look, 1:08:43.200 --> 1:08:46.240 I have not thought hard enough about first past the 1:08:46.240 --> 1:08:50.080 post ideas. I will say this, here's what I want. Okay, 1:08:50.560 --> 1:08:55.920 ranked choice voting just does It isn't going to get 1:08:55.960 --> 1:08:59.880 the trust of the public. It is a it could work, 1:09:00.360 --> 1:09:03.800 and in theory I basically would like to do it, 1:09:03.840 --> 1:09:07.120 but the hard way, which is I think the top 1:09:07.200 --> 1:09:10.320 four should move to a general election and then you 1:09:10.400 --> 1:09:13.040 pick from there and if nobody gets fifty, the top 1:09:13.080 --> 1:09:15.000 two meet again in a runoff. 1:09:15.120 --> 1:09:17.080 That's what I think right now. 1:09:17.080 --> 1:09:19.640 If you can decide as a party, whether you know, 1:09:19.680 --> 1:09:22.639 we could have you know, I'd love to see open 1:09:22.680 --> 1:09:27.840 primaries completely. Top four advanced to the general without you know, one, two, three, four, 1:09:27.880 --> 1:09:30.639 whatever it is, and then the top two if nobody 1:09:30.640 --> 1:09:33.320 gets fifty, would meet in a run off. I think 1:09:33.360 --> 1:09:36.800 that gives everybody a voice. I think that would open 1:09:36.880 --> 1:09:41.639 things up. You know, I don't want to dismiss first 1:09:41.640 --> 1:09:44.519 past the post ideas. It might be a better way. 1:09:44.560 --> 1:09:46.320 You know, if we do double the size of the house, 1:09:46.360 --> 1:09:48.600 you know, maybe some states will want to go to 1:09:48.680 --> 1:09:52.080 multi you know, there's there's some thought that you could 1:09:53.120 --> 1:09:54.880 you know, let's say you're a state that has eight 1:09:54.880 --> 1:09:59.040 congressional districts. So, for instance, and I'll give you an 1:09:59.040 --> 1:10:01.439 example of this. Mindid County used to elect it. All 1:10:01.479 --> 1:10:04.680 school board members were elected county wide and it was 1:10:04.760 --> 1:10:07.880 the I think they had. Let's say there were nine 1:10:07.880 --> 1:10:10.000 members of the of the school board, the top nine 1:10:10.040 --> 1:10:15.400 advanced and the and was the school board. There's some 1:10:15.439 --> 1:10:19.000 people that think, hey, maybe you hold your congressional elections. 1:10:19.560 --> 1:10:21.800 So if you're a state that has eight congressional districts, 1:10:22.120 --> 1:10:25.679 everybody runs statewide, everybody votes statewide, and the top eight 1:10:26.760 --> 1:10:30.200 get because this is a the the thinking there is 1:10:30.880 --> 1:10:33.519 if you get the top eight, and if you would 1:10:33.520 --> 1:10:37.040 get sort of pooled voting, right, you know, maybe some 1:10:37.280 --> 1:10:40.960 group would vote on identity politics and and surface up 1:10:41.000 --> 1:10:44.120 one type of candidate. Maybe some group would practice ideological 1:10:44.160 --> 1:10:47.160 politics and surface another type of candidate. But that you know, 1:10:47.600 --> 1:10:49.759 if you had top eight, you would get a pretty 1:10:50.240 --> 1:10:53.439 you get a congressional delegation that truly was representative of 1:10:53.520 --> 1:10:56.880 the entire state. Now the problem with that is what 1:10:56.960 --> 1:11:00.840 if all eight you know, let's say you're talking, you're 1:11:00.880 --> 1:11:03.360 talking the state of Iowa, and you get eight, but 1:11:03.439 --> 1:11:07.040 all eight are from des Moines, right, and you don't 1:11:07.400 --> 1:11:11.439 have anybody from Cedar Rapids or Debuque or Sioux City. 1:11:11.720 --> 1:11:15.160 You get my point, right, So, but you know, it's 1:11:15.200 --> 1:11:18.559 one of those ideas that I don't dismiss, say in 1:11:18.600 --> 1:11:22.240 a county for state representative races, right, or for state 1:11:22.360 --> 1:11:25.160 senate races if you have a large enough state senator 1:11:25.200 --> 1:11:28.960 state house. So I think there are circumstances where that 1:11:29.080 --> 1:11:32.800 might be an interesting idea. But ultimately, when it comes 1:11:32.880 --> 1:11:36.960 to statewide elections and sort of larger elections, you know, 1:11:37.280 --> 1:11:40.679 I think we you know, we ought to have top 1:11:40.720 --> 1:11:45.280 four in general and opens it up to other primaries, 1:11:45.479 --> 1:11:49.000 to other political parties. The duopoly is what is stifling 1:11:49.640 --> 1:11:53.479 innovation in American politics. That is just a fact that 1:11:53.560 --> 1:11:58.280 doopoly stifles it. If these were private organizations, you know, 1:11:58.520 --> 1:12:01.439 I think there'd be a that the FTC that they 1:12:01.439 --> 1:12:03.960 could break up this duopoly. But you know, this isn't 1:12:03.960 --> 1:12:07.240 how it works, since guess who runs the FTC. The duopoly, right, 1:12:08.360 --> 1:12:10.839 There's never been a duopoly that's never been more embedded 1:12:10.840 --> 1:12:13.880 in government than the GOP and the Democratic Party. I 1:12:15.320 --> 1:12:19.120 think we've got to come up with infrastructure, voting infrastructure 1:12:19.680 --> 1:12:26.360 that that incentivizes non major party candidates, that allows people 1:12:26.439 --> 1:12:29.559 who are independent, That allows people who have a different 1:12:29.560 --> 1:12:31.680 points of view to feel as if their voice can 1:12:31.760 --> 1:12:36.880 be heard in a reasonable way. So I'm really glad 1:12:36.880 --> 1:12:38.880 you picked up on the rob sandpoint about first past 1:12:38.920 --> 1:12:42.200 the post and the improval ideas. Look, all of these 1:12:42.200 --> 1:12:45.439 things I think will be coming to various states over 1:12:45.479 --> 1:12:48.080 the next twenty or thirty years. I think we're we're 1:12:48.120 --> 1:12:50.840 going into a period. You know, it's one of these things. 1:12:50.840 --> 1:12:53.799 I can't wait for fifty years from now for political 1:12:53.840 --> 1:12:56.080 scientists to talk about the fifty years that we're about 1:12:56.120 --> 1:12:58.000 to experience, because I think it's a I think we're 1:12:58.000 --> 1:13:00.280 going to have a lot of reform, experiment, experiment. Some 1:13:00.320 --> 1:13:02.760 will work, some well, just like what happened arguably in 1:13:02.760 --> 1:13:04.960 the first fifty years of the twentieth century. You know, 1:13:05.040 --> 1:13:08.599 some of them stuck right, direct election of senators, giving 1:13:08.600 --> 1:13:12.800 women the right to vote, Some didn't, prohibition. So you know, 1:13:13.720 --> 1:13:17.200 I do think we all agree that the system as 1:13:17.240 --> 1:13:20.719 it stands doesn't work, and I think, you know, thanks 1:13:20.720 --> 1:13:23.400 to the fifty States, we should start seeing some interesting 1:13:23.439 --> 1:13:27.000 experiments beginning sooner rather than later, rank choice voting being 1:13:27.080 --> 1:13:29.360 one of them that we're already seeing play out. And 1:13:29.360 --> 1:13:31.960 we're kicking the tires on it. And this was something 1:13:31.960 --> 1:13:37.160 I was a huge advocate of. Now I'm like you, Matt, 1:13:37.200 --> 1:13:39.479 I'm a little a little less into it than I 1:13:39.600 --> 1:13:45.160 was before. All Right, last question, doctor Walters, Well the 1:13:45.200 --> 1:13:47.960 cognitive Biden litmus tests become the Democratic version of the 1:13:47.960 --> 1:13:51.960 twenty twenty election or January sixth or will this remain 1:13:52.000 --> 1:13:55.400 a non healing wound until it is acknowledged and apologized for. Lastly, 1:13:55.439 --> 1:13:58.040 if you were Budhajid or another prominent Democrat, how would 1:13:58.080 --> 1:14:03.400 you answer the Biden cognitive question? Well, this, I don't 1:14:03.400 --> 1:14:08.479 know if we know the answer just yet. You know, 1:14:08.479 --> 1:14:11.960 there's a fine line here. I go back to Carter 1:14:12.040 --> 1:14:15.080 and Ducacus right in Mondale. They were you know, when 1:14:15.080 --> 1:14:18.200 you lose, you're usually sort of ostracized in a form, 1:14:18.280 --> 1:14:19.280 in one form or another. 1:14:21.840 --> 1:14:22.679 I'm trying to remember. 1:14:22.840 --> 1:14:25.000 I think, you know, I certainly think Mondale in eighty 1:14:25.000 --> 1:14:27.479 four acknowledged Carter. I think Carter was at his convention. 1:14:27.520 --> 1:14:32.519 I'm not sure if he spoke at that convention. Certainly 1:14:32.680 --> 1:14:34.920 was not a part of the Clinton ninety two convention, 1:14:35.120 --> 1:14:42.479 right or any of that. I I think that I 1:14:42.479 --> 1:14:46.719 think it's possible that the Democrat that wins the nomination 1:14:46.880 --> 1:14:48.759 is the one with the least amount of Biden ties. 1:14:49.880 --> 1:14:52.040 Now what does that mean. Does that mean no Biden 1:14:52.080 --> 1:14:55.920 cabinet secretaries or a Biden cabinet secretary makes it through 1:14:55.960 --> 1:15:01.000 because the other candidates had closer ties to Biden. It's 1:15:01.240 --> 1:15:06.400 I do think it's going to be in the same way. 1:15:06.479 --> 1:15:10.720 The Bush brand was just forever tainted by WMD and 1:15:11.040 --> 1:15:13.880 not finding the WMD. And I think ultimately is why 1:15:13.960 --> 1:15:17.000 Jeff Bush's candidacy couldn't get off the ground, is that 1:15:17.080 --> 1:15:22.439 the Bush baggage still was too heavy to carry into 1:15:22.920 --> 1:15:27.080 a campaign in twenty sixteen, and the fact that Donald 1:15:27.080 --> 1:15:29.479 Trump not not only didn't get penalized for going after 1:15:29.520 --> 1:15:31.960 the Bushes, he seemed to get rewarded inside the party 1:15:32.000 --> 1:15:34.719 for having the guts to go after the Bushes. 1:15:35.520 --> 1:15:37.519 So it is. 1:15:39.320 --> 1:15:44.000 I suspect it will be somewhat of a litmus test, 1:15:46.960 --> 1:15:48.800 you know. To me, if I were Booto, I would 1:15:48.800 --> 1:15:53.880 just tell the truth right, which was Look, I didn't 1:15:53.920 --> 1:15:57.559 have a lot of interaction. I always had some question 1:15:57.640 --> 1:16:01.200 about this, but I felt confident Joe Biden because I 1:16:01.720 --> 1:16:07.280 because of what I was watching with Donald Trump, you know, 1:16:07.479 --> 1:16:10.400 I don't try to come up with something else. I 1:16:10.400 --> 1:16:13.799 think that's the likely answer. And if that's the answer, 1:16:13.880 --> 1:16:15.360 you just lean into it and own it. 1:16:18.360 --> 1:16:18.559 You know. 1:16:19.120 --> 1:16:20.960 I know that I'm not going to conduct of my 1:16:21.040 --> 1:16:25.519 presidency that way, you know, something like that. And I'm 1:16:25.560 --> 1:16:28.200 going to be for you know, mandating more medical records 1:16:28.200 --> 1:16:30.559 to do this or that. You know, I think you 1:16:30.680 --> 1:16:36.680 can deal with it. And if anybody can talk their 1:16:36.720 --> 1:16:40.080 way out of this one out of this, it's Pete Buotages, right. 1:16:40.280 --> 1:16:43.920 I don't know if others can as much. Pete is 1:16:43.960 --> 1:16:46.639 better at this than most. Right, he has the gift 1:16:46.680 --> 1:16:52.480 of gab. But it it's it's got to be believable. 1:16:52.600 --> 1:16:56.880 And like I said, I'm I I you know, I've 1:16:56.920 --> 1:16:59.760 had these conversations with with various folks over the over 1:16:59.800 --> 1:17:03.080 the past few years on this issue. It was Donald 1:17:03.080 --> 1:17:07.320 Trump's presence that created an illusion of reassurance. 1:17:07.400 --> 1:17:07.920 Call it. 1:17:07.920 --> 1:17:11.080 It was frankly, Democrats had their own version of Trump 1:17:11.160 --> 1:17:15.200 derangement syndrome, and in Trump arrangement syndrome, right, which the 1:17:15.280 --> 1:17:18.679 right likes to call every critic every once. 1:17:18.560 --> 1:17:19.040 In a while. 1:17:19.320 --> 1:17:20.920 But in this case, what I think one of the 1:17:20.960 --> 1:17:24.599 symptoms is you just assume everybody sees the worst version 1:17:24.600 --> 1:17:28.000 of Trump that you're seeing, and most voters, you know, 1:17:28.080 --> 1:17:29.559 not a lot of voters see that same version. 1:17:29.600 --> 1:17:29.720 Right. 1:17:29.760 --> 1:17:30.960 Some of it has to do with the bubble you 1:17:30.960 --> 1:17:33.360 live in and this or that. And I do think 1:17:33.520 --> 1:17:35.320 this was a version of people in the White House 1:17:35.360 --> 1:17:38.040 had Trump arrangement syndrome. You know, no way that January 1:17:38.040 --> 1:17:39.960 sixth guy is going to be able to beat even 1:17:40.240 --> 1:17:43.400 you know, a half awake Joe Biden. So it was 1:17:43.560 --> 1:17:46.519 all done under the cover of comforting themselves by the 1:17:46.640 --> 1:17:50.160 perceived weaknesses that they thought Donald Trump was bringing to 1:17:50.240 --> 1:17:53.960 this campaign. And they were weaknesses, they just weren't weaker 1:17:54.000 --> 1:17:57.519 than the biggest weakness that either Canadate had, which poll 1:17:57.640 --> 1:18:01.720 after poll after poll showed, was age and capacity to 1:18:01.840 --> 1:18:06.519 serve a full second term. I will tell you this, 1:18:07.680 --> 1:18:09.719 Pete's going to learn a lot if Kamala Harris runs 1:18:09.720 --> 1:18:17.080 for governor, how it'll be interesting to see if how 1:18:17.120 --> 1:18:20.439 forgiving California voters are of her, How she answers the 1:18:20.520 --> 1:18:23.679 question of why didn't what did she see? When did 1:18:23.720 --> 1:18:26.840 she first start becoming concerned? Does she lean into it 1:18:26.960 --> 1:18:30.599 or not? And does avoiding it create a problem for her? 1:18:30.880 --> 1:18:33.360 That you know, oh, she's not coming across authentic or 1:18:33.400 --> 1:18:36.559 honest or whatever it is. So if you're if you 1:18:36.600 --> 1:18:38.479 have some Biden baggage and you're thinking about running for 1:18:38.520 --> 1:18:43.559 president in twenty eight, watching how Kamala Harris navigates this 1:18:44.160 --> 1:18:48.920 and seeing how voters, particularly Democratic voters in California receive 1:18:49.520 --> 1:18:55.639 this will provide I think some guidelines for how those 1:18:55.720 --> 1:18:58.720 with some Biden baggage in twenty eight decide to deal 1:18:58.760 --> 1:19:03.200 with it. All right, I'm gonna stop there. I hope 1:19:03.240 --> 1:19:05.880 you enjoy your Memorial d weekend. By the way, I 1:19:05.880 --> 1:19:08.639 had a lot of fun with my friend Jason Page 1:19:08.680 --> 1:19:12.360 and his UH and his show on YouTube and syndicated 1:19:12.360 --> 1:19:14.880 around the country, his sports show. We had a good time. 1:19:15.320 --> 1:19:18.160 UH did a little uh uh if you want to 1:19:18.240 --> 1:19:22.679 check it out, had a fun interactions with Patrick McEnroe, 1:19:22.720 --> 1:19:29.680 among others. So take a listen, absolutely roast me for 1:19:29.720 --> 1:19:32.760 whatever sports takes you don't agree with. Hope you enjoy 1:19:32.920 --> 1:19:36.479 the weekend of sports, and let's hope, let's hope we 1:19:36.520 --> 1:19:41.560 get some competitive NBA basketball. I'm nervous. I'm nervous that 1:19:41.720 --> 1:19:45.920 these series is that we may be done. I have 1:19:46.000 --> 1:19:50.480 a feeling okay, see Denver was unofficially the NBA Finals. 1:19:50.680 --> 1:19:53.000 I hope I'm wrong, but we shall see with that 1:19:53.320 --> 1:19:54.280 until I upload a game.