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Speaker 1: Hello there, Happy Thursday to you. Chuck Todt here with

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Speaker 1: another episode of the Chuck Podcast. Thank you for watching

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Speaker 1: on YouTube. If you're watching on YouTube, be sure you've subscribed.

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Speaker 1: Like and subscribe. We like those things. Appreciate you those

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Speaker 1: that are listening on the original way that many people

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Speaker 1: listen to podcasts, good old fashioned audio on your phones,

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Speaker 1: in your cars, wherever you're listening to this much appreciated.

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Speaker 1: We are taping just before this is we are in

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Speaker 1: the run up to Memorial Day weekend. And let me

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Speaker 1: give you a little bit a hint about Memorial Day

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Speaker 1: weekend in Washington, particularly in the odd numbered years. So

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Speaker 1: we're in the middle of this mess right now, right

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Speaker 1: House Republicans, they set an artificial deadline.

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Speaker 2: Which they may miss.

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Speaker 1: You know, Mike Johnson wanted to get the one big

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Speaker 1: beautiful bill, basically Trump's Trump's Agenda Bill, right, you know,

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Speaker 1: at this point we're governing in this horrendous process. Now

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Speaker 1: one party gets control of everything for a couple of years.

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Speaker 1: So they like, let's make the kitchen sink bill. It

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Speaker 1: was what Build back Better was what Joe Biden's Kitchen

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Speaker 1: Sink Bill was called. This one kitchen sink bill is

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Speaker 1: one big, beautiful bill. It's officially called this right, but

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Speaker 1: it's really the partisan kitchen sink bill. And what have

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Speaker 1: we learned about partisan kitchen sink bills. They're not they

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Speaker 1: will they'll eventually pass. It just depends on how much

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Speaker 1: crap you have to put in or take out in

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Speaker 1: order to get it to pass. There used to be

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Speaker 1: a great saying in Washington, if you can't get a

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Speaker 1: bill in Congress pass make it bigger. Meaning because back

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Speaker 1: in the days when you actually when everybody was transactional,

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Speaker 1: not just in partisan transactional natures, but literally across the aisle,

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Speaker 1: you could buy votes anytime you want it. All right,

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Speaker 1: let's build this in that district. We'll get his vote.

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Speaker 1: Let's do this over here. He needs my vote for

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Speaker 1: his bill. I'll give him that if he gives me mind.

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Speaker 1: For you know, that old fashioned way of making a

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Speaker 1: congressional bill was the way it worked when there was bipartisanship.

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Speaker 1: If you didn't, if you couldn't get a bill passed,

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Speaker 1: make it bigger. But ever since we went to this

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Speaker 1: partisan governance. Right, it basically started with the Clinton era.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: Clinton had a little bit of Republican support every now

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Speaker 1: and then early on, but he was mostly having to

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Speaker 1: do his first two years he had full democratic control.

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Speaker 2: It was partisan George W. Bush, same thing.

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Speaker 1: He had a fifty to fifty Senate, so he didn't

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Speaker 1: have to work with a couple of Democrats every now

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Speaker 1: and then. Barack Obama went it alone. Trump's gone it alone.

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Speaker 1: This is the second time he's done it. And of

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Speaker 1: course Biden went it alone. And so when you move

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Speaker 1: into this this stuff, you end up. Look, you make

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Speaker 1: legislation that is harder to keep permanent for what it's worth,

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Speaker 1: makes it easier. And you see what they're doing now.

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Speaker 1: I think Republicans are trying to repeal pieces of Biden's

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Speaker 1: bill in order to pay for theirs. Democrats, when they

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Speaker 1: get controlled, just do the same thing, right in two

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Speaker 1: years or four years. It is it's no way to govern,

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Speaker 1: it's no way to run the country. It's how what

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Speaker 1: the voters want, whether the voters like like a piece

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Speaker 1: of legislation or not. It's the whiplash that eventually creates exhaustion.

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Speaker 1: So look, it's the reality. And so what does that mean?

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Speaker 1: Does John Here's what I will tell you. You're going

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Speaker 1: to see dramatic headlines over the next You might see

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Speaker 1: more dramatic headlines in the next twenty four hours, forty hours,

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Speaker 1: seventy two hours. So it so it's not there, and oh,

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Speaker 1: they've doomed the bill, and it may be possible that

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Speaker 1: Johnson has to let him go fly home for the

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Speaker 1: Memorial Day recess and they deal with this for when

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Speaker 1: they come back. Remember how many times Joe Biden's Build

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Speaker 1: Back Better Bill died and then was resuscitated. Joe Manchin

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Speaker 1: at the end of the day killed it, and then

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Speaker 1: he came back and revived it. You see where I'm

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Speaker 1: going here. The point is this bill is going to pass.

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Speaker 1: We just didn't quite know when it is going to pass.

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Speaker 1: There is one or two Republicans that are comfortable voting

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Speaker 1: against it, but no one's going to be comfortable being

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Speaker 1: the vote that kills it. Right, Thomas Massey can get

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Speaker 1: away with he's doing because he's not the vote that

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Speaker 1: kills it. And maybe in Andy Harrison, Maryland, or maybe

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Speaker 1: one other two others can join. You know, however, whatever

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Speaker 1: they're padding is, they'll allow two or three to throw

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Speaker 1: their temper tantrums and they can vote against it. But

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Speaker 1: nobody will be willing trust me to be the vote

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Speaker 1: that kills it. No matter how much they don't like

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Speaker 1: the Medicaid cuts, no matter how much they don't like

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Speaker 1: the salt caps, it won't matter.

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Speaker 2: This will pass.

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Speaker 1: So this is one of those moments where back in

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Speaker 1: my old days with I sit here and roll my eyes.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, all right, I know there's this assumption that

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Speaker 1: we should cover this and take the debate seriously, but

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Speaker 1: we know the endgame here and do we really want

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Speaker 1: to pay how much? How much do we want to

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Speaker 1: waste the viewer's time on this sausage. Sometimes it's worth

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Speaker 1: it and sometimes it isn't. Here's what I'll tell you

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Speaker 1: on this one. It isn't worth it. I'm going to

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Speaker 1: give you the shortcut on that. So look, this thing's

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Speaker 1: going to pass my guest today, and I think it's

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Speaker 1: a perfect memorial.

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Speaker 2: They we can right.

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Speaker 1: This is the weekend that we kick off where some

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Speaker 1: people start to start to, you know, have find their

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Speaker 1: books for the summer that they want to read their

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Speaker 1: fiction books. Maybe they've got to new album they're going

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Speaker 1: to download, Maybe there's a new TV series or some

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Speaker 1: movies they're going to be well, My guest is Spencer Cornaber,

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Speaker 1: and he wrote this terrific piece in the Atlantic, having

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Speaker 1: you Know about you know is basically it's it's, frankly,

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Speaker 1: something that's written about every ten years.

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Speaker 2: Why does pop culture suck? You know?

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Speaker 1: Some form of that conversation? You know, it's worse than ever, right, nobody,

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Speaker 1: And it's one of those things where I'm and you'll

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Speaker 1: hear this in the conversation that Spencer and I have,

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Speaker 1: where you know, we always miss the good old days

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Speaker 1: of something, you know, maybe it's the good old days

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Speaker 1: of radio. I will you'll hear me whine about music.

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Speaker 1: I hate what algorithms have done to new music, and

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Speaker 1: you'll hear me go off on that. But there's another

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Speaker 1: part of culture that I think is that, you know,

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Speaker 1: we're in the middle of real culture wars. We've been

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Speaker 1: in a sort of culture cold war between the two

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Speaker 1: parties now for most of the twenty first century. Right

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Speaker 1: Steve Bannon is fond of saying that politics is downstream

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Speaker 1: from culture. The fact is it is all sort of

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Speaker 1: next right, you know, if you think about it. Our presidents,

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Speaker 1: ever since the television age, or really the radio age

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Speaker 1: with FDR, our presidents have become cultural figures. Some want

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Speaker 1: to be in cultural figures and some do not, but

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Speaker 1: that doesn't mean they all don't become one. Eisenhower strikes

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Speaker 1: me as somebody who was uncomfortable being a part of

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Speaker 1: the culture.

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Speaker 2: But John Kennedy, I think, loved it.

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Speaker 1: Richard Nixon loved it, even if he didn't like how

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Speaker 1: the culture was treating him, if you will. But he's

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Speaker 1: a guy that did the Went On laugh In, which

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Speaker 1: was Saturday Night Live before there was Saturday Night Live.

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Speaker 1: So and of course Ronald Reagan came from Hollywood into politics.

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Speaker 1: So look, the fact is culture and politics.

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Speaker 2: Have been intertwined.

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Speaker 1: And I've been thinking about this, and you know, there's

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Speaker 1: a part of me I'm like, you know, I can

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Speaker 1: be a curmudgeon on some of this stuff when I

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Speaker 1: hear a celebrity or an athlete pop off about a politician,

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Speaker 1: whether left or right, and I just sort of roll

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Speaker 1: my eyes. Oh god, you know. And then then I

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Speaker 1: remind myself, well, I do this about sports, and I

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Speaker 1: wonder how many sports guys roll their eyes and people

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Speaker 1: like Chuck to pop off about sports and they think

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Speaker 1: they know what they're doing, or Richard Nixon wants to

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Speaker 1: write a play for the Washington football team back in

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Speaker 1: the day. So I at the end of the day,

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Speaker 1: we're all citizens, and we're all we all sort of

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Speaker 1: have earned the right to pop off.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 1: The question is what is the role that political leaders?

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Speaker 1: What's a proper role At the end of the day,

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Speaker 1: they're you know, democracy, it is it's infused in the culture. Right,

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Speaker 1: This is sort of freedom of the freedom of speech.

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Speaker 1: So in many ways our political rules were responsive to culture.

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Speaker 1: So I, you know, they are intertwined. Whether there's no

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Speaker 1: debate about whether they should be or not, it is.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 1: The question is what should political leaders do impose culture

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Speaker 1: or simply influence culture? Are they they to celebrate the

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Speaker 1: culture or attack the culture of the moment?

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Speaker 3: Now?

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump is aggressive on this, right. He doesn't just

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Speaker 1: want to influence culture, right. He wants a certain type

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Speaker 1: of He's got a vision in his own head of

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Speaker 1: what he wants Kennedy Centator to be.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: He wants that to be a show, the American showcase

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Speaker 1: for what he believes is great American culture. And like

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Speaker 1: most people age seventy eight, seventy nine or eighty years old,

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Speaker 1: they think peak culture was sometime between Dean Martin and

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Speaker 1: maybe I'll give them bono, right, But that is culture

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Speaker 1: basically nineteen fifty five to nineteen eighty five. That thirty

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Speaker 1: years that's peak culture, right, that's you know Les miz

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Speaker 1: that came out.

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Speaker 2: Then when you start to think, right.

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Speaker 1: This is and it's simply you know, we I think

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Speaker 1: it's human nature when it comes to what we think

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Speaker 1: is culture is when is when the culture is appealing

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Speaker 1: to us, right, And when we're in the ages of

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Speaker 1: somewhere between say ten and forty, that thirty year period,

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Speaker 1: that's when most of pop culture is actually trying to

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Speaker 1: appeal to you, right, And it's in that thirty year

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Speaker 1: period there's always a there's sort of the pre teen culture,

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Speaker 1: teen culture, college cult, you see where I'm going, And

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Speaker 1: then all of a sudden, after forty, it's all nostalgia. Okay,

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Speaker 1: everything becomes derivative of nostalgia. I'm not saying people over

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Speaker 1: forty aren't interested in new things, but for the most part,

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Speaker 1: the view of culture, I think in the human brain

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Speaker 1: becomes more nostalgic after a certain age. Well, let's be honest, right,

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Speaker 1: there is it's like, what is our comfort level? I

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Speaker 1: find myself somewhere in the middle here, Right, I think

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Speaker 1: it's perfectly appropriate and it's going to happen that who

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Speaker 1: we elect as president is usually somewhat reflective of where

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Speaker 1: the culture is at the moment.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's not lost on me that Modern Family

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Speaker 1: the election of Obama all sort of happened at the

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Speaker 1: same time. Right, Modern Family was sort of peak culture.

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Speaker 1: You go back and you think about the culture of

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Speaker 1: eighties TV, and it was the height of sort of

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Speaker 1: family TV, Family ties, The Cosby Show eight is enough

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Speaker 1: that felt like it fits the Reagan era culture. You

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Speaker 1: throw in a Dallas and a dynasty, right, and that

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Speaker 1: sort of is a that was that version of the

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Speaker 1: darker version of culture. Right, you could say, you know,

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Speaker 1: the up to be a Modern Family breaking bad. Right,

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Speaker 1: In some ways both were We're sort of part of

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Speaker 1: that early sort of influenced culture that you could say

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Speaker 1: Obama's election either represented or helped facilitate, etc. And certainly

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Speaker 1: Trump's election is create I think sort of broadened the

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Speaker 1: idea that hey, there's no more cancel culture, although I

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Speaker 1: would argue we're starting to see a new version of

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Speaker 1: cancel culture develop at this time. By the right who's

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Speaker 1: trying to shame you know, whether it's liberal academics, things

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Speaker 1: like that, it's no different than the same cancel culture

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Speaker 1: those folks on the right were complaining that progressives were

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Speaker 1: doing when it came to certain comedians and certain things

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Speaker 1: that were uttered. So I would caution some of my

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Speaker 1: friends in the right who are sort of enjoying this

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Speaker 1: moment trying to lord over the culture, that they're actually

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Speaker 1: practicing some of the same bad, bad ideas that they

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Speaker 1: criticized the left, the left for doing.

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Speaker 2: But Donald Trump certainly.

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Speaker 1: Is trying, you know, he he his presence, He's not

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Speaker 1: I don't think he is somebody that is trying to

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Speaker 1: just influence culture. He wants to impose it. And I

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Speaker 1: think that's the line, right that there's a fine line

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Speaker 1: between you know, freedom of speech and imposing culture. And

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Speaker 1: if you're imposing culture, your essentially imposing on speech. And

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Speaker 1: I think that's the line he's continuing to draw.

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Speaker 2: It decided.

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Speaker 1: Look, if he doesn't like what Bruce Springsteen has to say,

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Speaker 1: so what you know, ask Richard Nixon.

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Speaker 2: There are many you know, many.

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Speaker 1: Musicians back in the late sixties and early seventies were

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Speaker 1: no Nixon fan, and certainly he didn't. He complained about

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Speaker 1: it on his tapes. He didn't go out and public

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Speaker 1: and complain about as much. In fact, just the opposite.

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Speaker 1: He was always trying to soften his image, right the

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Speaker 1: dude the walk in, the walk on with laughing, or

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Speaker 1: you look at the picture, you know, hanging out with

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Speaker 1: Elvis Presley. He of course loved to hang out with

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Speaker 1: Sammy Davis. But what Trump is you know, doing here

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Speaker 1: with his He gets angry when celebrities attack them, and

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Speaker 1: I think part of it is that he believes he's

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Speaker 1: a celebrity, and that he's a celebrity before he was

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Speaker 1: a politician. Right, And so this is a case where

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump believes, Hey, I'm a member of the same club.

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Speaker 1: Why are you attacking me. I'm a member of the

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Speaker 1: same club. You shouldn't be doing that type of mindset.

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Speaker 1: But he, you know, so there's something has to do

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Speaker 1: with he thinks he's, hey, we're on par you know,

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Speaker 1: you should be celebrating me and et cetera. So he's

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Speaker 1: doing that, but it is a you know, at the

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Speaker 1: end of the day, he just sort of is looking backwards. Look,

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Speaker 1: I like my presidents using the White House to celebrate

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Speaker 1: new artists. I like my presidents in the White House

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Speaker 1: to try to lift up maybe certain parts of the

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Speaker 1: culture that weren't getting enough attention, you know. I remember

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Speaker 1: it was Jimmy Carter that got me to listen to

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Speaker 1: the to Charlie Daniels for the first time. He loved

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Speaker 1: the Devil went Down to Georgia that.

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Speaker 2: Song, if you know.

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Speaker 1: And of course it Charlie Daniels became a little bit

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Speaker 1: politically divisive to some people a decade or so ago,

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Speaker 1: but it was also a form of music that I

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Speaker 1: hadn't been listening to, and Jimmy Carter sort of surfaced

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Speaker 1: it up. So there's there's a fine line, right which

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Speaker 1: I think it's perfectly appropriate to surface up new culture,

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Speaker 1: to sort of diversify the culture, but to impose it

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Speaker 1: and say what is good and what is bad. That's

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Speaker 1: when you're actually imposing on speech. And I think that's

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Speaker 1: when people get reactionary, and that's when everybody gets in

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Speaker 1: And I think the frustrating thing is is when is

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Speaker 1: when politics gets so infused with with with some sector

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Speaker 1: of the culture, whether it's a point at athletics, right,

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Speaker 1: the NFL felt that the hard way at one point,

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Speaker 1: whether it is music, whether it is the Oscars, whether

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Speaker 1: it is the Emmys, and so it's a it's it's

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Speaker 1: certainly a fine line. But I do think that that

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Speaker 1: here's my here's my guess of what where we had it,

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Speaker 1: where we had as a country, we're not you know,

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Speaker 1: Trump is intentionally inserts himself, right, and the Kennedy Center

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Speaker 1: and all this business. We're going to end up wanting

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Speaker 1: a president who wants nothing to do with the culture, right.

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Speaker 1: I think we're going to be looking for a Dwight

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Speaker 1: Eisenhower type. We're gonna be looking for a Gerald Ford type,

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Speaker 1: the do no harm frankly, a younger version of what

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Speaker 1: people thought they were getting from Joe Biden. Right, Joe

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Speaker 1: Biden was was you know that he was supposed to

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Speaker 1: be Gerald Ford or Dwight Eisenhower. He chose to be

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Speaker 1: something else, or he was surrounded by by aides who

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Speaker 1: saw something bigger that that wasn't there, right, He didn't

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Speaker 1: he didn't meet the moment because he didn't apparently didn't

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Speaker 1: realize why he was elected in the first place, you know,

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Speaker 1: and this happens to many a president. Some understand why

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Speaker 1: they were elected, and some have a of a bigger theory.

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Speaker 2: Of the case.

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Speaker 1: But as you listen, look, by the way, if you

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Speaker 1: don't like the fact that I've had a political cultural conversation,

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Speaker 1: well I don't know why you're subscribing to me number one,

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Speaker 1: but number two, fear not the conversation. I have a

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Speaker 1: Spencer Cornaber. We talk about movies to talk about we're

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Speaker 1: actually limiting the amount of politics. But I will say this,

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Speaker 1: I noticed that there were there's been more, and I'm

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Speaker 1: glad to see it. That one of the permission slips

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Speaker 1: that I do think that Trump's election has given to

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Speaker 1: Hollywood writers is that if you just just watch this

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Speaker 1: season of White Lotus or you watch this season of

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Speaker 1: The Studio, and I promise you there are episodes in

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Speaker 1: both of those there are parts of both episodes that

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Speaker 1: that conversation would not have been, that would not have

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Speaker 1: appeared on any episode of any show from twenty fifteen

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Speaker 1: through twenty twenty, and maybe from twenty fifteen through twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty two. But as the acknowledgment that, hey, half the

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Speaker 1: country is in one place, and if you're in if

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Speaker 1: you're in the business and make it TV shows or movies.

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Speaker 1: You'd like to open the aperture so that everybody feels

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Speaker 1: comfortable watching your show.

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Speaker 2: And so I will tell you.

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Speaker 1: I am glad when I can't immediately know oh the

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Speaker 1: writers are trying to make this political statement. There's nothing

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Speaker 1: thing I enjoy more than when there's a zag in

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Speaker 1: one of the TV shows I'm watching that is literally

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Speaker 1: a zag and is meant to sort of virtue signal

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Speaker 1: that hey, we're not trying to be one sided politically,

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Speaker 1: We're trying to open our doors to all sides of

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Speaker 1: the conversation. All Right, I'll shut my trap on this

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Speaker 1: topic for now. When we come back a fascinating conversation

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Speaker 1: about is how crappy is today's pop culture? I would argue,

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Speaker 1: not as crappy as we all think. PI this Spencer

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Speaker 1: corn Haber next, well, joining me now is Spencer corn Haburn.

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Speaker 1: If you've spent five minutes on the internet, you've probably

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Speaker 1: seen a reference to Spencer's piece about culture and about

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Speaker 1: in the Atlantic that he essentially made read the title

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Speaker 1: of the piece, The title of the piece being is

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Speaker 1: this the worst ever era of American pop culture?

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Speaker 2: And Spencer we were just.

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Speaker 1: Talking before we started recording about how the beauty of

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Speaker 1: your piece is how much it has sparked a lot

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Speaker 1: of other people to write about it or talk about

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Speaker 1: it or say it, and in fact, you will love this.

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Speaker 1: My daughter just got home from college, like when I say,

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Speaker 1: got them got like an hour ago, and I'm like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to, you know, tape this interview. And she goes,

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Speaker 1: what are you doing? And I show her.

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Speaker 2: She goes, are you going to be trashing Taylor Swift?

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Speaker 1: That was like her first question. It's good culture And

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Speaker 1: I'm like.

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Speaker 2: Well, I don't know yet.

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Speaker 1: We'll talk about it, but let's start with why did

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Speaker 1: you decide to write this piece?

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Speaker 2: And I asked, because.

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Speaker 1: This is a piece that is always fraught with peril,

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Speaker 1: meaning the minute you write it. It's the ultimate subjective

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Speaker 1: because one person's cultural disgust is another person's excitement about change.

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Speaker 1: So what motivated you? And let me ask me, why

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Speaker 1: do you think you should write this piece?

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Speaker 4: Well, what motivating me is that the complaining got so

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Speaker 4: loud in the culture in the twenty twenties. I felt

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Speaker 4: like I've been at the Atlantic as a culture critic

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Speaker 4: for nearly fifteen years now, and I kind of wanted

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Speaker 4: the job knowing that declinism was part of the tradition

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Speaker 4: of arts criticism.

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Speaker 3: Every generation.

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Speaker 4: Ends up feeling like it grew up in a golden

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Speaker 4: age and like watched that golden age, and and you know,

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Speaker 4: a lot of critics spend the second half of their

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Speaker 4: career kind of writing lay laymentations for how things used

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Speaker 4: to be. And so I've been very self aware about

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Speaker 4: not falling into that trap. I've been accused of being

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Speaker 4: overly optimistic or optimistic is.

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Speaker 2: Some optimistic that's a good word.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, that's when you allegedly just believe that

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Speaker 4: anything that's popular is great art, which is not something

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Speaker 4: I believe. But when you start praising people like Tarterswift,

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Speaker 4: you sometimes get called optimist, which is just the way

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Speaker 4: of calling you a sheep or whatever.

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Speaker 3: So, you know, I've been on guard for this.

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Speaker 4: But in the twenty twenties, kind of coming out of

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Speaker 4: the pandemic, it felt like there was no coherent story

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Speaker 4: in culture other than I was reading from all these

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Speaker 4: different different vandage points. People feeling like culture was dying.

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Speaker 4: Their favorite art form was, you know, in a follow

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Speaker 4: period and so, and the arguments they were making were

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Speaker 4: actually rather compelling and some of them did involve these

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Speaker 4: sort of subjective questions that you referred to. You know,

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Speaker 4: that can get so tire somewhere, can kind of just

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Speaker 4: be a circular argument about which era of movies or

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Speaker 4: music was the best. There was a little bit about that,

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Speaker 4: but there were more about these structural, technological, economic, political

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Speaker 4: forces that were making this era feel really different than

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Speaker 4: previous eras we lived through.

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Speaker 1: I want to focus on music and literature first because

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Speaker 1: I think those are the ones where I feel as

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Speaker 1: if technology may have.

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Speaker 2: Gotten in a way.

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Speaker 1: Let me start with music, because I'm a I was

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Speaker 1: a music major in college, because I was a classical

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Speaker 1: music person.

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Speaker 2: I had.

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Speaker 1: I played the French worn I have. I My father

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Speaker 1: worked in the record industry, so I grew up all

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Speaker 1: these final records all the time, and he loved both.

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Speaker 1: He was early rock, he was a boomer, but also

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Speaker 1: you know, loved he loved all of Mozart. It was

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Speaker 1: more Mozart than Beethoven. But I so I have an

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Speaker 1: eclectic music taste. I also growing up in the eighties,

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Speaker 1: you know, you know, I literally go from led Zeppelin

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Speaker 1: to Public Enemy, right, which is what a lot of

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Speaker 1: my friends did, right. We were the transition, and that

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Speaker 1: was what we thought was cool. I certainly had a

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Speaker 1: clash phase, you know, so, just like sort of.

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Speaker 2: Any kid of the eighties.

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Speaker 1: I bring this up because my I'm a new music snob.

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Speaker 1: I missed the days of the in the early night

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Speaker 1: you go to listening stations, and I was the guy.

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Speaker 1: If I found one song on an album, I like,

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Speaker 1: I bought the whole album. I'm like, I'm giving that

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Speaker 1: artist a chance because I want to. I believed in

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Speaker 1: the entire idea of hey, they have something to say,

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Speaker 1: let me, let me, let me listen to the whole thing.

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Speaker 1: And my frustration with music today I have and I'm

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Speaker 1: well confess I have the luxury to do this, but

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Speaker 1: I have six different music streaming services that I that

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Speaker 1: I use because I had it all on Apple and

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Speaker 1: it can't. I never get I never get anything that's new,

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Speaker 1: unclassical mean and not obviously classical music's never new, but

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Speaker 1: there's new interpretations, new recordings, whatever, because it's not a

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Speaker 1: big enough part of my library to trigger the algorithm,

436
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,600
Speaker 1: right or I have way too much seventies and eighties rock,

437
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,840
Speaker 1: and I just get all the new music is always

438
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,960
Speaker 1: something on that so I've literally created all right, this

439
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:55,360
Speaker 1: is my classical music one, this is my hip hop one,

440
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:58,840
Speaker 1: this is my classic rock et cetera. And so I

441
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,640
Speaker 1: look at it and I think it's the algorithms that

442
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:06,560
Speaker 1: have really screwed up the ability to surface new music.

443
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:11,040
Speaker 1: That's what I have experienced. Am I describing something that's

444
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:11,760
Speaker 1: familiar to you?

445
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:13,440
Speaker 2: Absolutely?

446
00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:16,840
Speaker 4: You know, one of the most sort of shocking statistics

447
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,399
Speaker 4: about music these days is that seventy five percent of

448
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:23,200
Speaker 4: music that's streamed every year is old music, music that's

449
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:25,399
Speaker 4: older than eighteen months old. So only twenty five percent

450
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:29,399
Speaker 4: of what's being streamed at any given moment is new,

451
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:32,360
Speaker 4: and those numbers keep getting quoe unquote worse every year.

452
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:35,760
Speaker 4: The piece of the pie that's new is getting smaller

453
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:38,600
Speaker 4: and smaller. And a lot of this, I think does

454
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:43,359
Speaker 4: come from the forces of algorithms, where they the easiest

455
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:45,800
Speaker 4: way to predict what someone's going to want to listen

456
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,440
Speaker 4: to tomorrow is to study what they listened to yesterday.

457
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,120
Speaker 4: And this has been marketing logic for you know, time eternal.

458
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:54,919
Speaker 4: You know, you can think back to the stereotype of

459
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 4: record label boss in the seventies telling a rock band

460
00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:00,199
Speaker 4: to make a new hit that sounds like their last hit,

461
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 4: right like these these pressures in these forces are kind

462
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 4: of the table stakes for making art in capitalism, you

463
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 4: could say, but algorithmic culture gives us so much algorithms

464
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:16,200
Speaker 4: give us so much data and are just so are

465
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:20,359
Speaker 4: so you know, sophisticated about serving you something that is

466
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:24,360
Speaker 4: going to keep you maybe not actively engaged, but possibly engaged.

467
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:27,680
Speaker 4: Not not You're not going to write down the name

468
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,479
Speaker 4: of the artists necessarily, but you're not going to hit skip.

469
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,199
Speaker 4: And so this encourages a blander and more passive and

470
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:36,679
Speaker 4: more recycled or regressive culture.

471
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:38,440
Speaker 2: No, it does.

472
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:40,679
Speaker 1: You know, another way that I've always thought, you know,

473
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:44,320
Speaker 1: tv ads, and obviously few and few people see tv ads,

474
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:48,680
Speaker 1: but you can always tell who what demographic they're targeting

475
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 1: by the music that they licensed in the background, because

476
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 1: it's always to me, they're always targeting somebody who listened

477
00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,400
Speaker 1: to that music when they were a teenager, right, so

478
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,520
Speaker 1: you know, it's like beating you know, so you could

479
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:06,200
Speaker 1: always sort of see, oh, they're they're targeting you know boomers,

480
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:09,359
Speaker 1: that's why they're using the Beatles, or they're targeting you

481
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:11,720
Speaker 1: know gen x, that's why they're using guns n' roses,

482
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 1: or they're targeting, you know, millennials. That's why you're hearing

483
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 1: some Nirvana. I don't know if Nirvana's millennial or not.

484
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 1: I we can we can debate that, but you get

485
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,119
Speaker 1: my point here, right, Like you see it sometimes in

486
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 1: that and that, and that's now how I feel these

487
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 1: algorithms are working almost in the same way that car

488
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:33,479
Speaker 1: companies use music to try to get us to trigger

489
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,919
Speaker 1: nostalgia to get to to make purchases.

490
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:39,880
Speaker 4: Well, that's that's certainly true, and that's certainly how it's

491
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 4: been done for a long time. I mean, interesting thing

492
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,200
Speaker 4: about what you're saying is what kind of music would

493
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,920
Speaker 4: you play now to make someone who's young now nostalgic

494
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 4: for their teenagehood. If you think about what's popular these days,

495
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 4: you can think about artists like Sabrina Carpenter, Benson Boone,

496
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:00,399
Speaker 4: these are there's a lot of music on the charts

497
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 4: that to me isn't sonically linked that closely to this moment.

498
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,359
Speaker 4: It sounds like a rehash of classic rock or old

499
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,920
Speaker 4: country music. You know, it's a kind of pastiche of

500
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,280
Speaker 4: really all the decades of rock and roll that you

501
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 4: just reference is kind of coming back and being remixed,

502
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 4: and that's kind of how music has always moved forward,

503
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 4: but it hasn't always felt this much like this regressive, really,

504
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:29,960
Speaker 4: And I think there are market forces related to these

505
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:35,200
Speaker 4: algorithms that are encouraging pop producers and songwriters to think

506
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,359
Speaker 4: about how they can make music that is going to

507
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 4: play to a very large audience by triggering nostalgia for

508
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 4: multiple generations, and what the effect of that is to

509
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 4: create pop music that doesn't really move the ball forward

510
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 4: that much in terms of sound, right.

511
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:51,159
Speaker 1: You know the other thing though, and let me let

512
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 1: me do a counter on this and what algorithms taught

513
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:58,359
Speaker 1: us that perhaps we didn't fully appreciate. So before the algorithm,

514
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:02,040
Speaker 1: I would argue the cost dictated music taste, right, it

515
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 1: was either New York or LA and you know, yes,

516
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 1: we could throw in Motown there too.

517
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,160
Speaker 2: But really those were the three places.

518
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:14,360
Speaker 1: And it turns out country music was a lot more

519
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 1: popular than how you know, this is a class, you know,

520
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 1: it's sort of like it was a It's a version

521
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,080
Speaker 1: of this of Letterman versus Leno. Leno was always more

522
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 1: popular in the middle of America. Letterman was more popular

523
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 1: in the coasts, and the rating showed it right. Leno

524
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:32,959
Speaker 1: had more viewers, Lenno had more eyeballs, even if Letterman

525
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:33,680
Speaker 1: was winning the.

526
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 2: College educated crowd, if you want to go there.

527
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 1: And so, what the flattening of music taste did is

528
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,639
Speaker 1: it reminded people. Did you know a majority of Americans

529
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,919
Speaker 1: actually prefer country? Because it does feel as if country's

530
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,400
Speaker 1: moment now where it's the only place I can find

531
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 1: the electric guitar anymore. Country, you know, the only place

532
00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 1: you find some of the most interesting song lyrics that

533
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 1: have a message.

534
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:02,359
Speaker 2: Country.

535
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 1: Is that an argument for crowds that maybe we were

536
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 1: we were mistreating country music in our culture for decades.

537
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:15,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, part of the story that we're talking about

538
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 4: here is the fall gatekeepers, you know, radio, DJs, print magazines,

539
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:24,880
Speaker 4: major labels. They You're right, they all had to kind

540
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 4: of coastal often elite bias. And so as more and

541
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,639
Speaker 4: more of America has gone online or not gone online

542
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:34,679
Speaker 4: but gone on the streaming in the past decade or so,

543
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 4: you're absolutely seeing things like country also hip hop revealed

544
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 4: the kind of latent.

545
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 3: Popularity that was perhaps already there.

546
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 4: And yeah, it's a fascinating thing because it's not only

547
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 4: happening in America, but it's also allowing global sounds to

548
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 4: come to the fore and be exposed to American audiences

549
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 4: where things like K pop or Spanish language pop or afropop, afrobeats,

550
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 4: these are also like kind of like in a renaissance

551
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 4: of popularity. And the question is were they kind of

552
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 4: always as popular as we couldn't see that in America?

553
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 4: Or did did this falling of the gate keepers, this

554
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 4: algorithmic culture and this ability to search and listen to

555
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 4: whatever you want on demand? Did that create a new

556
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 4: marketplace and expose Is that really the source of novelty

557
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 4: for people who are looking for novelty and culture? Now

558
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 4: audiences are gravitating towards these sounds that they really couldn't

559
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 4: have accessed as easily a few years ago.

560
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 1: Look, I I'm glad you brought up Latin Latin pop

561
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 1: or Latin dance if you will, or however you want

562
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 1: it in K pop, because both of those, You're right,

563
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 1: I mean, that was again, that was something that the

564
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 1: Details magazine was never going to talk about totally, right, Yeah.

565
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I came home to visit my baby

566
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 4: parents a couple of years ago and they'd been listening

567
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 4: to you know, their Alexa algorithms, and they've become obsessed

568
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 4: with bad Bunny.

569
00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 3: You know, they speak it.

570
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 4: Be spanished and never let's than any Latin pop ever before.

571
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 4: And suddenly their taste seemed to have expanded thanks the algorithm.

572
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 3: So these things aren't all bad.

573
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 1: No, That's why I wanted to sort of like basically

574
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 1: fight my own argument here a little bit. My son

575
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 1: is eighteen and thinks Oasis is amazing, had this this

576
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 1: huge nineties obsession and he loves Oasis, and you're like, okay, interesting,

577
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 1: I said, well, you might like the Beatles. Oasis was

578
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 1: kind of a Beatles ripoff, you know type of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

579
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 1: So I don't know what to make of that. I mean, look,

580
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 1: I remember myself, you know, about his age. I was,

581
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 1: you know, if I was going into older music. For me,

582
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 1: it was it was I got real into motown, you know,

583
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,719
Speaker 1: when I was seventeen eighteen. As I started getting into

584
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:52,520
Speaker 1: hip hop right then, it was like, oh I want

585
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 1: to I want to hear more black music, you know.

586
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 1: So I got really into motown recordings back then. So

587
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:00,239
Speaker 1: I guess that's the same mindset, you know.

588
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 4: But I look at you, Yeah, is part of learning

589
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 4: your learning your history as part of EVE. And so

590
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 4: I do think that some of this like fear of

591
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 4: stagnation that we're seeing is actually identifying actually, really people

592
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 4: who are excited about music and are learning about it

593
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 4: and treating that as if it's that something perverse about it,

594
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 4: which is actually is rather healthy.

595
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 1: Let me go one more on music here before we

596
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 1: pivot to others. So I don't want, you know, to

597
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 1: go all music here, but you know, it's also possible

598
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 1: certain music genre is mature, right, Classical music's matured. There's

599
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 1: it's you know, even new stuff today is going to

600
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 1: sound like you know, Aaron Copeland, and he was new

601
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 1: when he came around the tone of the century nineteenth

602
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 1: to twentieth, right, So even when you see new scores

603
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 1: that are classically inspired, you know it it sounds, you know,

604
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 1: not like the seventeen hundreds and eighteen hundreds classical, but

605
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 1: more like the nineteenth century. There's a lot of Tchaikovsky

606
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 1: inspiration in Aaron Copland and stuff like that. So my

607
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 1: point is is that that's a mature sound.

608
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 2: Rock.

609
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 1: I think the electric guitar is, for whatever reason, what

610
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 1: we define as rock music. I don't know if there's

611
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 1: I think, is it, I would argue, let me ask you,

612
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 1: is it matured?

613
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 2: Are we done?

614
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 1: Are we just simply frustrated that we haven't had a

615
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 1: new genre of music take off yet.

616
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 4: It's a very good question that's really hard to answer

617
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 4: because for rock and roll in particular, basically every decade

618
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 4: since it was invented, people have played it's the.

619
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 3: Most it's done right, Yeah, you know, right?

620
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 1: Are the Killers, like the Killers have been the last

621
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 1: rock band? For are they still the last rock band?

622
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 1: Because that was always that's for me, it's always how

623
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 1: they were built in the early two thousands. Meet the

624
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 1: Killers the last rock band.

625
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, We've had a few different artists claim that title.

626
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 4: You know, something like the nineteen seventy five I would say,

627
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 4: is a more recent example of the last rock band.

628
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 4: And you know they that's an innovative of the moment

629
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 4: band that brings in pieces of the past, but really

630
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 4: feels very rooted in the now and and really in

631
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 4: internet culture. So I do think that genres burn themselves

632
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 4: out or kind of do reach a stalling point. At

633
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 4: the same time, you know, we're talking about country music

634
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 4: having this resurgence, and that's due to country artists making

635
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 4: music that sort of sounds traditional, but they're taking on

636
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 4: new lyrical topics, or they're incorporating hip hop influences, or

637
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 4: it just feels a little more modern. So I do

638
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 4: think there's waves for very old genres to engage with

639
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 4: their times.

640
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 3: But yeah, I have that fear, and I you know.

641
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 4: There's some people who have a fear that recorded music

642
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 4: itself is sort of at the end of its life cycle.

643
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 4: There's not really a lot more that you can a

644
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 4: lot in many more combinations of sounds that you could

645
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 4: put together in a pleasing way on a recording that

646
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 4: people are going to listen to.

647
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 1: It's a rather well that's going to be fascinating with AI,

648
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:00,479
Speaker 1: isn't it, Because AI is goody going to be able

649
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 1: to experience as much as people are all negative on

650
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 1: AI and I and I get that you're going to

651
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 1: be able to experiment and see, you know, classical music

652
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:09,879
Speaker 1: went through this where it was just sort of, hey,

653
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 1: let's make chords that clash rather than that go together.

654
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:15,479
Speaker 1: And you're like, no, I don't like this, and there's

655
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 1: a reason it didn't take off, right, But I do.

656
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,759
Speaker 1: I wonder how culture will handle Somebody is going to

657
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:28,840
Speaker 1: be using AI to mix, to do some some sort

658
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 1: of mixing of sounds that'll take off, and well then

659
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:37,280
Speaker 1: that that maybe now it'll be a combination of everything.

660
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 1: But what music wasn't inspired by something that was already

661
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:41,280
Speaker 1: had been created.

662
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:44,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think you're I think that's right. Like AI

663
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 4: is going to serve up a bunch of new color

664
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 4: swatches that artists can pull from. I don't think I'd

665
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 4: have a hard time imagine that AI is going to

666
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 4: create a new sound that will that will work for

667
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 4: people as like meaningful music in a way that like

668
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,239
Speaker 4: previous new kinds of me music did, because there's no

669
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 4: you know, music has a meaning to people, like it

670
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 4: conveys something about identity and about the world that they're

671
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:11,439
Speaker 4: the vain and uh it's I think that's pretty hard

672
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 4: to fake it. And so I do think what's going

673
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 4: to happen is what you're saying, that that we're gonna

674
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:22,320
Speaker 4: have this new library of possible sounds, and the interesting

675
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 4: humans might do something with that using the AI. At least,

676
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 4: that's the most hopeful take.

677
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 2: For that's the most right and hopeful.

678
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 1: Let's turn to a place where I think we should

679
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 1: actually be celebrating our culture rather and that is sort

680
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 1: of what we've done with television. I mean, television isn't

681
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 1: something where we're all going, boy, the good old days, now,

682
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:48,239
Speaker 1: the good old days. Have you watched some of those comes, right?

683
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 1: Have you watched some of those dramas, like, you know,

684
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 1: go watch an episode of Quincy and tell me that

685
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 1: we haven't gotten better at the medical drama? Okay, nothing,

686
00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 1: you know? Or or Rescue nine I think it was called.

687
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 1: It wasn't Rescue fifty one or car fifty one Emergency

688
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 1: fifty one, which is just no different than what we

689
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:09,920
Speaker 1: have today in nine to one one, you know, but

690
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 1: it's a little bit more sophisticated. I do think we're

691
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 1: in a golden age of television entertainment, and that is

692
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:21,279
Speaker 1: something where you could say it is better now than

693
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 1: it was.

694
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:22,839
Speaker 2: Right.

695
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 1: We can debate music, we can debate frankly physical art work,

696
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 1: which I want to get into a little bit, even literature,

697
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 1: But on television, what say you and what did you

698
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 1: find in your writings on that aspect of culture?

699
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:39,319
Speaker 4: I think that we have been in a golden native

700
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 4: television and the concern just in the last couple of

701
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 4: years is that it's sort of ending, and the gold

702
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 4: NATed television would have been like maybe from two thousand

703
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 4: and eight, so twenty twenty, you know that that era

704
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 4: of you know, prestige TV really becoming the center of

705
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 4: a culture and streaming enabling all these different kinds of

706
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:02,880
Speaker 4: stories being told that we're high quality. It seemed like

707
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 4: streaming services were trying to stand out by doing things

708
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:11,279
Speaker 4: that were really high quality and authentic and just provocative.

709
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:14,879
Speaker 4: There's a feeling that that is starting to peter out.

710
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:18,239
Speaker 4: And again these algorithms that you're that you are so

711
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 4: fearful about. You look at something like Netflix. Netflix is

712
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 4: putting out an incredible amount of content, original content, and

713
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 4: it's produced and written. In many cases, according to notes

714
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,160
Speaker 4: that were given by studio executives that were informed by

715
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:34,719
Speaker 4: the algorithm, there's just a lot.

716
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:37,239
Speaker 1: Of well, that's the whole the entire Hallmark channel, Like

717
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:41,239
Speaker 1: there's a whole business, right that is literally those have

718
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:45,319
Speaker 1: to be AI scripts, right, let's feature the kel Let's

719
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 1: feature Donna Kelcey in this Hallmark movie and oh the

720
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:52,200
Speaker 1: scripts out and I got it, give me fifteen minutes.

721
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 2: I'll get you a script.

722
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:55,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, and then also make sure that it's paced of

723
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:57,959
Speaker 4: Justin's the way that someone can look at their phone

724
00:37:58,000 --> 00:37:59,439
Speaker 4: and aut a wrapp look at the screen and still

725
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:01,759
Speaker 4: know what's going on on. So I think algorithms are

726
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 4: giving companies and creators more ways to be mediocre perhaps,

727
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:09,279
Speaker 4: and we're seeing a flood of that mediocrity and TV.

728
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 4: At the same time, HBO is the pit a lot

729
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 4: better than Quincy, the best medical drama I think maybe

730
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:18,839
Speaker 4: ever made an incredible work of art that just came out.

731
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,560
Speaker 4: So I agree that the highest of television are as

732
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:22,440
Speaker 4: highs they've ever been.

733
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:26,080
Speaker 1: Now, let's talk about movies, right, movies have been in

734
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:29,399
Speaker 1: some ways this is a genre that I'm wondering if

735
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 1: it's to just matured out, meaning we're you know it is.

736
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 2: In some ways.

737
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 1: Episodic television has like I can't tell you how many

738
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 1: times I see a movie and I'm like, boy, I'd

739
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:47,279
Speaker 1: have preferred that as a six episode. I want the

740
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 1: stuff they cut, and I'd rather have it as six

741
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:54,840
Speaker 1: or eight episodes. Give me five hours of total watch

742
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 1: time six or eight episodes, rather than you trying to

743
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:00,480
Speaker 1: edit me a quick ninety minute to our store. There

744
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 1: are versions that still work. I thought, no, mad, that's

745
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:05,759
Speaker 1: not a movie that I wanted episodically made out and

746
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:07,840
Speaker 1: it was a terrific movie and it really told a

747
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,799
Speaker 1: great story. Right, So it's not as if movies still

748
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 1: don't have its place, but I wonder if it's matured.

749
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 3: Yeah.

750
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 4: I think that movies and TV really are blended together

751
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 4: more than they ever have been. And it's hard to

752
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,279
Speaker 4: talk about one without talking about the other. I mean,

753
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 4: I just you know, I just watched and Or, which

754
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 4: is a TV series, but it's was made in the

755
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:29,880
Speaker 4: series of three episode arcs, and.

756
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:32,799
Speaker 2: I got three more episodes. Buddy, that's awesome. I know,

757
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 2: no spoilers.

758
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 1: My wife's out of toud, so what That's a show

759
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 1: we watched together, so you know she's out of town.

760
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:43,360
Speaker 2: So those three episodes are sitting there taunting me. But anyway,

761
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:43,720
Speaker 2: go ahead.

762
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:46,120
Speaker 3: You're gonna love it. You might cry a bit though.

763
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:51,800
Speaker 4: The to me, that feels like, hey, like that's movie

764
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 4: ambition being done for TV, and I almost wish that

765
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:57,920
Speaker 4: it was released to three movies, you know, But that's

766
00:39:57,920 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 4: the well.

767
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 1: Tom Cruise is fighting this right, mission impossible. He basically

768
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:05,279
Speaker 1: took what would have been one season eight episodes, and

769
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 1: he said, no, i'min to do two movies.

770
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:08,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, no.

771
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 4: And you have these really gargantuan or iconic creators who

772
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 4: are still standing up for the art form and doing

773
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:17,719
Speaker 4: I think, really interesting things. I think what movies the

774
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 4: way forward is to really use the moviness of the medium,

775
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:23,440
Speaker 4: like really figure out what it means to have a

776
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:26,439
Speaker 4: two hour story that said or it would that you're

777
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:30,439
Speaker 4: forced to sit and not look at your phone during

778
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 4: And so I think playing with intensity and tempo and

779
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 4: like suspense and just varying. Yeah, playing with people's attention

780
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:41,279
Speaker 4: is in a creative way is the way forward. I

781
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:43,919
Speaker 4: think about a movie like Barbie, or even a movie

782
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 4: like Oppenheimer, both of those, you know, the Barbenheimer Summer.

783
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:48,720
Speaker 3: I don't think that was a fluke.

784
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:51,840
Speaker 4: That was two very different movies that were both edited

785
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:55,840
Speaker 4: and in a way that was very modern and pacy

786
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 4: and really could work for people's TikTok brain and keep

787
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 4: them in their seats, no looging their phone, and really

788
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:03,040
Speaker 4: on the edge of their seats.

789
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:08,799
Speaker 1: So Christopher Nolan, I in preparation I had him on

790
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:12,800
Speaker 1: Meet the Press before for Oppenheimer, and I wanted a screener,

791
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 1: and he refused to give me a screener. He said, no, however,

792
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 1: I will set up a special screening in a theater

793
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:24,680
Speaker 1: that I believe you need to experience this in. And

794
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:27,360
Speaker 1: you know, I brought the whole staff. We got a

795
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 1: special meat the press screening. It was fantastic at the

796
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:33,880
Speaker 1: and I see why he's right, right, it was brilliant

797
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 1: what he did. He knew he had a tough story

798
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 1: to tell, and he wanted to keep people's attention. And

799
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 1: so I dragged at the time my seven sixteen year

800
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 1: old and my twenty year old and made them both come,

801
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:46,799
Speaker 1: you know, a good story. And they enjoyed the movie

802
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:49,840
Speaker 1: more than they thought because it did keep your attention.

803
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:56,279
Speaker 1: And look, Christopher Nolan is is special, right. It's he

804
00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:58,880
Speaker 1: owns the movies right now, right like we have the

805
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:01,760
Speaker 1: different you know, John is Quentin Tarantino had to run.

806
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:05,040
Speaker 1: This is Christopher Nolan, right, Copola had these guys. He

807
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 1: is the guy that understands how to still break through

808
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 1: with a movie in this culture which has never been harder.

809
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I think of him as sort of making

810
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 4: movies almost like a DJ that makes a DJA set

811
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,239
Speaker 4: you know, he has a real sense of flow and

812
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 4: just like what the body in the brain needs to

813
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:27,480
Speaker 4: stay stay in the moment, and he's doing that without

814
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 4: sacrificing the seriousness of the story or the writing. And

815
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:33,319
Speaker 4: it's a it's a grumbled thing, and hopefully he's going

816
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:35,839
Speaker 4: to inspire another generation of filmmakers to do what he's done.

817
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:40,320
Speaker 1: And question further, all right, let's talk about literature, because

818
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:42,239
Speaker 1: you know, there's always been the what is it? There's

819
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 1: only seven plot lines supposedly, right, is.

820
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 3: That the that's still help them all though?

821
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:48,319
Speaker 1: Right?

822
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 2: Yeah?

823
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's sort of like because if you really

824
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 1: wanted to crap on literature, you could say, well, Shakespeare

825
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 1: did it right. And it's like every novel written has

826
00:42:57,680 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 1: some you could sit there and say, well Shakespeare did

827
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 1: it or the Greeks did it right? You know, whoever

828
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 1: wrote all these Greek tragedies right type of thing. So

829
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 1: everything is a derivative. But I would argue we're in

830
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 1: a golden age because the last thirty years we're getting

831
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 1: a diversity of writers that that the gatekeepers didn't allow

832
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:21,360
Speaker 1: into the pool. So I'm curious where you were in

833
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:24,239
Speaker 1: your in your travels, Where did you where did you

834
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:27,239
Speaker 1: find culture critics on the issue of literature is it

835
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:31,400
Speaker 1: are we are we in a an up upswing? Or

836
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:33,960
Speaker 1: is it all too much derivative?

837
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:35,359
Speaker 3: Yeah?

838
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 4: I mean this gets a question that's in my piece

839
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:39,800
Speaker 4: really in a section more about visual arts, but is

840
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 4: taking on this question of what happens when your field

841
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 4: progresses by becoming more diverse, When when, uh, what's changing

842
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 4: in the medium isn't necessarily the way you tell stories

843
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 4: or kind of formal innovations, or rather the kinds of

844
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 4: people that are telling the stories and the kind of

845
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 4: resources they get, and then who's in those stories and

846
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 4: it And you're right, it can be invigorating to read

847
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 4: a murder mystery, you know, that's that's kind of very

848
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 4: familiar plot but set in a totally different MILLIAU than

849
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 4: we got in the twentieth century when everything was you know,

850
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:12,320
Speaker 4: set in U.

851
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 1: A different antagonist and a different protagonist and all those

852
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:22,880
Speaker 1: things and gender diversity and different different, different familiar characters

853
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 1: but different backgrounds.

854
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:27,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, to me, I think that's very exciting

855
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:31,320
Speaker 4: and cool that it does not speak to a super

856
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:34,239
Speaker 4: robust future for them for the medium. If we're not

857
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:37,239
Speaker 4: also talking about formal innovation. You know, someone like Tony

858
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:40,280
Speaker 4: Morrison came along and she you know, she was important

859
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 4: because of the black female writer, but also because she's

860
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 4: just such a formally innovative, distinctive voice. And you know,

861
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 4: one knock that people have on modern fiction right now

862
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 4: is that there's not as much of an attention to voice.

863
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,800
Speaker 4: There's kind of a kind of cold modernist way of writing,

864
00:44:56,960 --> 00:45:00,440
Speaker 4: and that is being used to render these different stories.

865
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:02,919
Speaker 4: And that all this said, I'm not a book critic,

866
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:04,320
Speaker 4: so I can't.

867
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:07,719
Speaker 1: Know, but but like you know, is literature and one

868
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:10,279
Speaker 1: of the you know, are we in one of those

869
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:13,400
Speaker 1: periods where everybody says, everybody the writing sucks. And I

870
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:14,800
Speaker 1: don't think we're in one of those.

871
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 3: No, I don't, I don't. I don't think. So.

872
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:19,160
Speaker 4: I think there's a there's a very robust market for

873
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:22,840
Speaker 4: like literary fiction that tells these different kinds of stories.

874
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:27,759
Speaker 4: But you know, there's this feeling that one, kids and

875
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 4: younger people and even nbple my age are reading less

876
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:34,440
Speaker 4: and and uh have less of attention for a novel.

877
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:36,840
Speaker 4: And so that's that doesn't speak all the future of

878
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:37,880
Speaker 4: the medium.

879
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 2: But you also have the graphic novels are taking off.

880
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, and you have you have short stories and

881
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:47,239
Speaker 4: serialized fiction being published on platforms like substack, and that

882
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 4: seems to actually be a source of a lot of energy.

883
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:52,839
Speaker 1: Right now, that's interesting. I hadn't picked up on that.

884
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:56,760
Speaker 1: So basically the way Dickens released his books is back.

885
00:45:57,520 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 3: Yes, I think that. I think that's opening.

886
00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:04,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's fascinating. Now let's talk about the visual arts,

887
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 1: and I guess whether sculpture, painting, that's where I want

888
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:14,319
Speaker 1: to go here, multimedia, I guess is that a are

889
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 1: we in a mature place when you look at it,

890
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 1: Like you know, at first it was about trying to

891
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:24,400
Speaker 1: Artists were trying to do their best job to replicate

892
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 1: what humans were seeing. Then we got the photograph, so

893
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:30,360
Speaker 1: that then we got the Salvador Dolly, hey, let me

894
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:34,080
Speaker 1: warp it, right, That's what that's what created because in

895
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 1: some ways we already have the photograph. I know what

896
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:38,960
Speaker 1: it looks like. Let's have a melting clock, right when

897
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:45,480
Speaker 1: that be interesting? Then we had a movement of public

898
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:48,279
Speaker 1: art works like I in Miami, I had the guy

899
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:50,760
Speaker 1: I can't remember his name who decided to put pink

900
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:53,000
Speaker 1: aprons around all the islands of Miami.

901
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 2: Frankly, it was really cool. This was in the eighties

902
00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:56,399
Speaker 2: and it.

903
00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:58,600
Speaker 1: Was the first one of these he's I forget the

904
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 1: guy's name, he's done this, Yes, Chrysto, thank you. And

905
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:06,360
Speaker 1: that was a thing. And then we've backed off a

906
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:09,080
Speaker 1: little bit on public art. So where are we there?

907
00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:10,160
Speaker 2: Is this a it?

908
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:14,319
Speaker 1: And are we in a And I wonder if our

909
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 1: ability to perfectly show pictures now based on you know,

910
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:25,319
Speaker 1: makes that art harder to innovate with.

911
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, we're inundated with images now and you know, things

912
00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:34,920
Speaker 4: like AI can show you anything and very quickly. Where

913
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:38,920
Speaker 4: I think that, I think that that visual arts are

914
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:41,240
Speaker 4: getting a run for their money just from the Internet.

915
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:43,399
Speaker 4: You know, we are looking at visual art all day long.

916
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:46,920
Speaker 4: But it's memes, it's tiktoks, it's uh yeah, it's AI

917
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 4: art and the gallery scene and the art museum scene.

918
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 4: From my understanding, just the past couple of years, there's

919
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:58,239
Speaker 4: most critics agree that it's pretty stale and stagnant. A

920
00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:01,440
Speaker 4: lot of the galleries are facing financial hardships, are closing,

921
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:04,799
Speaker 4: and there's people are kind of looking around for what's

922
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:07,920
Speaker 4: the next thing going to be? And I would imagine

923
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 4: it's going to have to be from artists engaging with

924
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:14,480
Speaker 4: that with their competition on the Internet and finding a

925
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:21,319
Speaker 4: way to elevate this kind of tumble of images in

926
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:22,799
Speaker 4: a way that feels new, And I don't really know

927
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 4: exactly what that's going to.

928
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:27,200
Speaker 1: Look, right, That's what I'm curious, Like, if he came

929
00:48:27,239 --> 00:48:28,919
Speaker 1: back to life today, what would he be doing.

930
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:33,399
Speaker 4: I mean, we've had those those We've had people print

931
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 4: up pictures of Instagram and put them on gallery walls.

932
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:38,279
Speaker 4: You know, that was a fad like ten years ago,

933
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:41,480
Speaker 4: and we're already past that. So I don't I'm not sure.

934
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:42,360
Speaker 4: I'm not sure.

935
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:46,120
Speaker 1: I feel like the one the most interesting is the

936
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:48,880
Speaker 1: public space is art in the public space. But I

937
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:52,480
Speaker 1: I that that's where at least you can because then

938
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 1: it's experiential, I guess, and then let me, I guess

939
00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:58,040
Speaker 1: that's where I'd like to go. Finally, the fact that

940
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:02,120
Speaker 1: we crave experiences, is that going to be the most

941
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:06,239
Speaker 1: innovative art form for maybe the next for gen Z,

942
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:07,360
Speaker 1: for the next generation.

943
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:10,520
Speaker 4: I think that's going to be part of the story

944
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:14,600
Speaker 4: where both you have such excitement right now for concerts

945
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:17,960
Speaker 4: and live events. You know, the biggest entertainment event of

946
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:20,080
Speaker 4: the past two years with Together Swipt's tour, and then

947
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 4: there's been many other tours where you just can't get

948
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:25,279
Speaker 4: a ticket and people are just It changes the local

949
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:28,600
Speaker 4: economy as these tours move through, and the energy is

950
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:31,360
Speaker 4: a bit different than it used to be, And presumably

951
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:34,279
Speaker 4: that's because these fans want to get out of their

952
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 4: bedrooms and be with each other and experience of real

953
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:39,560
Speaker 4: life thing the only thing that you can't really duplicate online.

954
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:43,440
Speaker 4: So I think that mentality you're going to see and

955
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:47,520
Speaker 4: already are seeing play out in different be capitalized on

956
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:48,440
Speaker 4: in different mediums.

957
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 3: You know, the immersive art exhibit.

958
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:55,799
Speaker 4: You know, things like the immersive van goes that pop

959
00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:58,239
Speaker 4: up in these different cities, or like the Museum of

960
00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:01,000
Speaker 4: ice Cream, which is essentially like a adult playpen where

961
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:03,520
Speaker 4: you take instagrams of yourself. They have a bad rap

962
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:07,879
Speaker 4: as being sort of like Instagram bait, but I think

963
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:12,440
Speaker 4: there has to be a future for really interesting artists

964
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:17,360
Speaker 4: creating immersive exhibits that you really can't duplicate online. I

965
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:18,759
Speaker 4: think we are going to see a lot of cool

966
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:19,359
Speaker 4: things come out.

967
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:22,960
Speaker 1: Of that, all right, So I went back and looked

968
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:26,840
Speaker 1: for the different sort of iconic with to help a

969
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:30,319
Speaker 1: little research help there with our friends at AI, what

970
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:33,359
Speaker 1: are the different cultural critiques of the different decades? And

971
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:36,000
Speaker 1: it surfaced up a Tom Wolf piece about the ME

972
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:39,680
Speaker 1: decade and the Third Great Awakening that was we were

973
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:43,280
Speaker 1: the seventies were very narcissistic and me centered. The eighties

974
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:47,279
Speaker 1: it was are we entertained to death? Which seems like, boy,

975
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:49,280
Speaker 1: that's don't we wish we had that problem?

976
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:50,719
Speaker 2: Right? Isn't that the same.

977
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 1: The nineties The Key the Fraying of America a criticism

978
00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:01,680
Speaker 1: written by Robert Hughes, The culture of complaint, beginning of

979
00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:05,319
Speaker 1: polarization essentially was starting. Then political correctness started to pop

980
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:08,839
Speaker 1: up a lot there in the nineties. So if your

981
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:12,040
Speaker 1: piece ages well, it will be because and if your

982
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:14,280
Speaker 1: piece doesn't age well, it'll be because.

983
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:18,600
Speaker 3: If my piece doesn't age well, it's probably because I

984
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:19,879
Speaker 3: didn't talk about AI enough.

985
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 4: And I feel like, really at the beginning of the

986
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:27,120
Speaker 4: AI moments and that it will upend everything.

987
00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:28,759
Speaker 3: And I talk about a bit in the piece and

988
00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:30,040
Speaker 3: really the fear.

989
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:34,120
Speaker 4: That this overwhelming abundance of slop and the ability to

990
00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:38,440
Speaker 4: just create background music, music and art that kind of

991
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 4: feels like things you've experienced before, and then you can

992
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:44,840
Speaker 4: kind of passively enjoy. That's going to create real competition

993
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:49,880
Speaker 4: for actual human artists and undermine the creative energy in

994
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:50,400
Speaker 4: our society.

995
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:52,560
Speaker 1: I mean, let me play the free marketer here. Let

996
00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:57,080
Speaker 1: me play free market pushback. Competition usually makes for more innovation,

997
00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:02,000
Speaker 1: and so maybe we know the AI slop may only

998
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:03,719
Speaker 1: stretch human boundaries.

999
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:05,960
Speaker 3: That's true, that's true.

1000
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:08,640
Speaker 4: I think that the best things that we will still

1001
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:11,200
Speaker 4: have some examples of excellence that come out of that.

1002
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:15,120
Speaker 4: But it's very hard to create great things when you're

1003
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:19,440
Speaker 4: trying to serve, when you have, when you can't survive,

1004
00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:21,520
Speaker 4: when you can make a living, and when you're not

1005
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:23,920
Speaker 4: in a creative community of other people that are inspiring you.

1006
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:26,359
Speaker 4: And all these courses are eating away at those things.

1007
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:30,040
Speaker 4: And so that's I think the greatest cause for fear.

1008
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:33,879
Speaker 1: You were saying that in your piece, and I thought

1009
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:35,160
Speaker 1: that was an excellent point.

1010
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:37,680
Speaker 2: I just think about.

1011
00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:41,400
Speaker 1: Universities these days, in colleges, and the and the and

1012
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:46,240
Speaker 1: the and how parents are discouraging their kids from majoring

1013
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:51,920
Speaker 1: in anything that isn't directly about a job right or income.

1014
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:57,279
Speaker 1: And so your art literature majors, your sculpture majors. Your

1015
00:52:57,360 --> 00:53:01,800
Speaker 1: music majors are going to be fewer and fewer because

1016
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:04,160
Speaker 1: it'll feel like, quote unquote, why am I spending all

1017
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:07,960
Speaker 1: this money for you to become really good at a hobby?

1018
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:10,800
Speaker 2: And you know, because it is hard.

1019
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:12,520
Speaker 1: I mean, look, I was a music major for a

1020
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:15,520
Speaker 1: while and I came to the conclusion that I wasn't

1021
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:19,520
Speaker 1: good enough to be a professional musician and I don't

1022
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:23,320
Speaker 1: and I wasn't, you know, I didn't. There are plenty

1023
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:24,799
Speaker 1: of other ways to make a living in music, and

1024
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:27,160
Speaker 1: I didn't want to do those things right that that

1025
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:29,000
Speaker 1: was not you know, I want. I had one goal.

1026
00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:36,120
Speaker 1: I couldn't get it, and so I changed lengths. But

1027
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:39,200
Speaker 1: but that is something that I was wondering about that

1028
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:43,080
Speaker 1: we won't We're not going to have artists colonies, right,

1029
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:46,560
Speaker 1: We're not going to have music schools. We may not

1030
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:49,720
Speaker 1: have and and if you don't, then we may limit

1031
00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:52,400
Speaker 1: the number and AI may even make people think we

1032
00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:54,120
Speaker 1: don't need as many of them type of things.

1033
00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:55,200
Speaker 2: So I that.

1034
00:53:55,080 --> 00:53:59,040
Speaker 1: Does feel like a potential that's on the doomier side

1035
00:53:59,080 --> 00:53:59,920
Speaker 1: of things, isn't it.

1036
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:03,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, But we could all make a decision of society

1037
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:05,200
Speaker 4: to do something about that, and we invest in art

1038
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:08,480
Speaker 4: schools and say that human made art is a cultural

1039
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:12,319
Speaker 4: priority or even like a political priority. I don't think

1040
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:14,880
Speaker 4: that's going to happen anytime soon, but doesn't feel like

1041
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:18,120
Speaker 4: we're living in that era that I agree with you

1042
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:21,520
Speaker 4: that we will have our Look, there's a reason we

1043
00:54:21,560 --> 00:54:23,360
Speaker 4: call them enlightening periods, this or that.

1044
00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:25,399
Speaker 2: I mean, you know.

1045
00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:30,520
Speaker 1: We are Civilization is cyclical, right, so I have no

1046
00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:32,880
Speaker 1: doubt we'll have a period where we'll.

1047
00:54:32,719 --> 00:54:34,520
Speaker 2: Want to reinvest in the arts. The question is win.

1048
00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:38,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean I think that, you know, despite

1049
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:40,759
Speaker 4: all these forces that we're talking about, these kind of

1050
00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:44,160
Speaker 4: structural downers, if I want to end the piece on

1051
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:45,920
Speaker 4: a positive note, and I do think they're just an

1052
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:49,160
Speaker 4: incredible amount of creativity that's happening now. And it's not

1053
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:51,080
Speaker 4: just in these art forms that we're talking about, but

1054
00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:54,480
Speaker 4: it's also in podcasts, and it's in video games, and

1055
00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:57,040
Speaker 4: it's on TikTok, and it's in means. And we have

1056
00:54:57,120 --> 00:55:00,759
Speaker 4: a harder way of talking about and appreciating and even

1057
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:04,400
Speaker 4: knowing what excellence means in those in those mediums.

1058
00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:06,680
Speaker 3: But I hope that as you.

1059
00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:08,960
Speaker 4: Know, as we progress in this direction, where there's so

1060
00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:12,840
Speaker 4: much possibility and so many different ways for getting your

1061
00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:15,560
Speaker 4: art out, and so many different ways to find something

1062
00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:18,839
Speaker 4: that really strikes you and to connect over it. I

1063
00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:20,920
Speaker 4: do think that we're going to get better at understanding

1064
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:23,320
Speaker 4: what creativity looks like in this environment.

1065
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:25,440
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting you just brought up gaming, and

1066
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:27,160
Speaker 1: we didn't talk about that as a as a sort

1067
00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:30,640
Speaker 1: of a genre of culture. It's a it's a gigantic

1068
00:55:30,680 --> 00:55:35,799
Speaker 1: genre of culture, right, It's it's hugely so is sports, right,

1069
00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:38,840
Speaker 1: and we've never and look at the growth of more sports.

1070
00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:41,080
Speaker 1: I mean, one of my favorite stats is that there

1071
00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:44,200
Speaker 1: are more youth cricket clubs in New York City than

1072
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:48,520
Speaker 1: there are Little league baseball teams. And yes, that's how

1073
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:51,960
Speaker 1: quickly the Southeast Asian population is growing and cricket is

1074
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:54,879
Speaker 1: becoming more popular. That's just cricket. And I could make

1075
00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:57,920
Speaker 1: this lacrosse is now a nation nationwide sport. Where so

1076
00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:02,239
Speaker 1: I guess sometimes when you when you you know, is

1077
00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:03,960
Speaker 1: this the worst air of America pop culture?

1078
00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:06,920
Speaker 2: Well, in sports? Has it ever been more diverse?

1079
00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:12,840
Speaker 4: Perhaps not, but sports just becoming a subset of gambling

1080
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:16,640
Speaker 4: and addiction and you know, dopamine chasing do the legalization

1081
00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:17,400
Speaker 4: of sports betting.

1082
00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:19,240
Speaker 3: That's what as well.

1083
00:56:19,520 --> 00:56:22,600
Speaker 2: I hear you there, but let me let me so.

1084
00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:24,200
Speaker 1: One of the reasons why I ended up at music

1085
00:56:24,280 --> 00:56:25,920
Speaker 1: major is my father is like, hey, it'll help you

1086
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:28,759
Speaker 1: pay for school, and it did. I got a frenchworn scholarship, right,

1087
00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:31,680
Speaker 1: That's how I don't. I don't go to GW without it.

1088
00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:36,520
Speaker 1: Sports is now that path. Now it's like a real

1089
00:56:36,680 --> 00:56:39,040
Speaker 1: in the same way music was a realistic path for

1090
00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:43,120
Speaker 1: your ten to fifteen percent of musicians. Now sports will

1091
00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:45,600
Speaker 1: be to pay for college is a ten to fifteen percent.

1092
00:56:45,640 --> 00:56:47,400
Speaker 1: It's not a one percent chance anymore. Because it's not

1093
00:56:47,440 --> 00:56:50,520
Speaker 1: just football or basketball, not just boys, right it is.

1094
00:56:51,200 --> 00:56:56,040
Speaker 1: There's twelve or thirteen different sports. And so I throw

1095
00:56:56,040 --> 00:56:59,200
Speaker 1: that in there because it it's part of pop culture.

1096
00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:01,759
Speaker 2: But it was it. But I think we don't.

1097
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:04,959
Speaker 1: I think older generations don't think of it that way yet.

1098
00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:07,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think you're right, and I think you know,

1099
00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:10,720
Speaker 4: and just my day to experience, people are as obsessed

1100
00:57:10,719 --> 00:57:13,400
Speaker 4: with sports as they've ever been. It kind of feels

1101
00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:17,200
Speaker 4: like it's blending the same things that make people obsessed

1102
00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:19,560
Speaker 4: with Tayer Swift is making people obsessed with you know,

1103
00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:20,600
Speaker 4: the white sox or whatever.

1104
00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:23,560
Speaker 1: Don't you think it's because it's reality, because it's something

1105
00:57:23,600 --> 00:57:26,400
Speaker 1: that doesn't feel like you can manipulate or manufacture.

1106
00:57:26,720 --> 00:57:27,120
Speaker 2: I don't know.

1107
00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:29,960
Speaker 1: There's a meritocracy to it, right, like there are a

1108
00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:32,960
Speaker 1: rule I don't I've been wondering this myself. Why are

1109
00:57:32,960 --> 00:57:36,840
Speaker 1: we having this? Or it's also the thing that's least polarizing, right,

1110
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:39,960
Speaker 1: there's no left versus right, you know as much?

1111
00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:43,960
Speaker 2: I know, Yeah, you're right, we've had.

1112
00:57:44,040 --> 00:57:48,320
Speaker 1: It's not like, lease, now, yeah, have we politicized college

1113
00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:48,960
Speaker 1: sports at all?

1114
00:57:49,040 --> 00:57:49,240
Speaker 2: Now?

1115
00:57:50,040 --> 00:57:52,520
Speaker 1: I take the minute I said it, right, You're like,

1116
00:57:52,720 --> 00:57:56,360
Speaker 1: I should reel those words back in. But I think

1117
00:57:56,400 --> 00:57:59,720
Speaker 1: the aspiration for sports is that it's not that it

1118
00:57:59,720 --> 00:58:02,120
Speaker 1: can bring people together rather than polarize.

1119
00:58:02,680 --> 00:58:05,760
Speaker 4: Well, I think fandom is one of the last kinds

1120
00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:08,360
Speaker 4: of social glue that we can rely on in the

1121
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:11,320
Speaker 4: time when everyone is so isolated on their phones, not

1122
00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:14,800
Speaker 4: going into the physical world as much. The one thing

1123
00:58:14,840 --> 00:58:18,000
Speaker 4: that can bridge the physical world and the digital world

1124
00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:20,400
Speaker 4: in a social way is being a fan of something,

1125
00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:23,680
Speaker 4: whether that's a pop star or a sports team.

1126
00:58:23,800 --> 00:58:25,400
Speaker 1: All right, let me get you out of here on this.

1127
00:58:27,160 --> 00:58:30,400
Speaker 1: Who's the king of pop ha haha. Or the king

1128
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:32,360
Speaker 1: of quator pop is that Taylor Swift right now?

1129
00:58:33,600 --> 00:58:37,320
Speaker 4: Right now, it's Taylor Swift right now, so Swift, but

1130
00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:42,160
Speaker 4: maybe you put Bad Bunny would be the king that is. Yeah,

1131
00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:45,640
Speaker 4: he's as big as anyone basically in terms of album

1132
00:58:45,680 --> 00:58:49,320
Speaker 4: sales and all that. You know, someone like Drake he

1133
00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:51,360
Speaker 4: would have pointed to a few years ago. He's fallen

1134
00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:54,560
Speaker 4: off a little bit. Yeah, but Bad Buddy kind of

1135
00:58:54,560 --> 00:59:00,440
Speaker 4: represents this the kind of global incursion of pop, global

1136
00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:04,000
Speaker 4: pop becoming just pop or pop from outside of America

1137
00:59:04,040 --> 00:59:06,720
Speaker 4: being able to be as central as any American or

1138
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:09,640
Speaker 4: English speaking star would be. And his music is this

1139
00:59:09,720 --> 00:59:13,080
Speaker 4: amalgam of not just you know, his influence is from

1140
00:59:13,080 --> 00:59:15,680
Speaker 4: Puerto Rico, but it's American hip hop, and it's all

1141
00:59:15,680 --> 00:59:17,080
Speaker 4: sorts of global sounds are in there.

1142
00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:19,880
Speaker 1: And if I asked you who rules Hollywood, what would

1143
00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:21,240
Speaker 1: be the first couple of names you'd say?

1144
00:59:22,640 --> 00:59:27,240
Speaker 4: I mean, we talked, we talked about Chris Nolan. You know,

1145
00:59:27,280 --> 00:59:32,480
Speaker 4: it feels like Disney is actually it's Disney's on the

1146
00:59:32,560 --> 00:59:35,280
Speaker 4: back foot and has kind of lost some of its

1147
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:39,160
Speaker 4: power or kind of it was the monolith that was

1148
00:59:39,280 --> 00:59:42,600
Speaker 4: ruling culture for the past ten or fifteen years, but

1149
00:59:42,640 --> 00:59:45,080
Speaker 4: it seems to have stumbled a little bit. So I

1150
00:59:45,080 --> 00:59:47,560
Speaker 4: think that it's actually kind of an upper grabs moment

1151
00:59:47,560 --> 00:59:51,360
Speaker 4: on Hollywood. So something like something like Ryan Cooler's Sinners

1152
00:59:51,400 --> 00:59:55,560
Speaker 4: being such a hip that's an example of how there's

1153
00:59:55,600 --> 00:59:57,680
Speaker 4: maybe some space opening up in these kind of like

1154
00:59:58,200 --> 01:00:00,880
Speaker 4: innovative Blockbuster that's not just a sequel. We're seeing a

1155
01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:02,800
Speaker 4: couple We've seen a couple examples of those sort of

1156
01:00:02,800 --> 01:00:04,880
Speaker 4: things pop up over the past few years, and I

1157
01:00:04,880 --> 01:00:07,840
Speaker 4: think it's I think Hollywood is generally in a pretty

1158
01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:11,080
Speaker 4: bad place, but in out of that badness some interesting

1159
01:00:11,880 --> 01:00:13,720
Speaker 4: high high they're going to jump out of that.

1160
01:00:14,440 --> 01:00:16,920
Speaker 1: Is there a king and Queen of Hollywood that you

1161
01:00:16,920 --> 01:00:18,880
Speaker 1: could point to right now? I mean, who would have that?

1162
01:00:19,120 --> 01:00:21,480
Speaker 1: Who would be sitting in those chairs if you if

1163
01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:24,280
Speaker 1: you had to, if you had to, if you did

1164
01:00:24,280 --> 01:00:25,840
Speaker 1: a rotten Tomato survey.

1165
01:00:26,160 --> 01:00:30,480
Speaker 4: Well, I don't know if you did a rotten tomatoes survey,

1166
01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:32,400
Speaker 4: but I would put no a Wiley from the pit.

1167
01:00:32,480 --> 01:00:34,640
Speaker 3: It would be the King. Yeah, because I'm obsessed with

1168
01:00:34,640 --> 01:00:35,320
Speaker 3: that show right now.

1169
01:00:37,120 --> 01:00:41,280
Speaker 1: By the way, one thing about is rotten tomatoes good

1170
01:00:41,400 --> 01:00:43,360
Speaker 1: or bad for innovative for culture.

1171
01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:47,800
Speaker 4: I don't think it's very I don't think it's very

1172
01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:51,200
Speaker 4: good because it's it's put a number on subjective.

1173
01:00:53,360 --> 01:00:54,360
Speaker 3: The determinations.

1174
01:00:54,400 --> 01:00:57,960
Speaker 4: You know, I was obsessed with Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic

1175
01:00:58,000 --> 01:01:00,720
Speaker 4: when I was growing up, or like you know, wanted

1176
01:01:01,280 --> 01:01:05,120
Speaker 4: with an aspiring critic. But lately it feels like those

1177
01:01:05,120 --> 01:01:07,720
Speaker 4: platforms that have come really gamified, like people are kind

1178
01:01:07,720 --> 01:01:11,160
Speaker 4: of manipulating, And you know, maybe it's.

1179
01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:14,120
Speaker 1: My biggest beef about aggregating polls, Like I'm not I

1180
01:01:14,200 --> 01:01:16,160
Speaker 1: like Nate Silber, but I don't like what he does

1181
01:01:16,200 --> 01:01:19,520
Speaker 1: with numbers. I like, you know, real clear politics for politics.

1182
01:01:19,560 --> 01:01:22,360
Speaker 1: It drove me crazy. I'm like, no, I'm not taking

1183
01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:25,480
Speaker 1: good and bad and mixing them in a blender. I

1184
01:01:25,520 --> 01:01:28,320
Speaker 1: know the good pollsters, I know the bad pollsters, Rotten Tomato,

1185
01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:31,080
Speaker 1: you know the good critics, and you know the bad critics.

1186
01:01:31,120 --> 01:01:32,520
Speaker 2: Why are we putting them all in a blender.

1187
01:01:33,320 --> 01:01:35,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a lot of perverse incentives in that system,

1188
01:01:35,760 --> 01:01:38,840
Speaker 4: and also has created this thing among movie fans, which

1189
01:01:39,480 --> 01:01:43,680
Speaker 4: which is an obsession with kind of yeah metrics. They're

1190
01:01:43,680 --> 01:01:46,080
Speaker 4: acting like sports fans in a lot of ways. I

1191
01:01:46,120 --> 01:01:49,240
Speaker 4: see some pop music too, where music fans are so

1192
01:01:49,360 --> 01:01:53,280
Speaker 4: obsessed with sales numbers and how their their diva is

1193
01:01:53,480 --> 01:01:56,200
Speaker 4: charting and comparison to their rival. And I don't think

1194
01:01:56,240 --> 01:01:58,760
Speaker 4: that was a wide started phenomenon a few decades ago.

1195
01:01:58,840 --> 01:02:01,880
Speaker 4: It's it's it's sort of like money qualification of life

1196
01:02:02,320 --> 01:02:05,840
Speaker 4: that I think it makes people talk less about creativity

1197
01:02:05,840 --> 01:02:08,360
Speaker 4: and art and more about yeah, money.

1198
01:02:09,000 --> 01:02:12,680
Speaker 1: We've gone almost as long as the article. Uh, if

1199
01:02:12,680 --> 01:02:14,120
Speaker 1: you listen to the article, So I want to be

1200
01:02:14,120 --> 01:02:18,080
Speaker 1: careful there. But one one area I didn't bring up

1201
01:02:18,080 --> 01:02:20,840
Speaker 1: that I actually meant to because I think we've seen

1202
01:02:20,880 --> 01:02:25,280
Speaker 1: some innovation maybe, but is musical theater and Broadway in

1203
01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:29,000
Speaker 1: general and live theater? And I guess maybe is that

1204
01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:31,600
Speaker 1: do we put that in this experiential bucket? I feel

1205
01:02:31,600 --> 01:02:34,240
Speaker 1: like it's having a moment again, right, And and lin

1206
01:02:34,320 --> 01:02:36,480
Speaker 1: Manuel Miranda told us that, hey, you can still do

1207
01:02:36,560 --> 01:02:39,080
Speaker 1: new things. I think some people thought that that was

1208
01:02:39,080 --> 01:02:42,120
Speaker 1: a mature I certainly did that, hey, that's that's a

1209
01:02:42,160 --> 01:02:45,840
Speaker 1: mature genre. And he said, no, it's not. Let me

1210
01:02:45,880 --> 01:02:46,520
Speaker 1: try something.

1211
01:02:46,960 --> 01:02:48,480
Speaker 2: So what do we what?

1212
01:02:48,680 --> 01:02:50,360
Speaker 3: Hamilton's ten years old? What's that?

1213
01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:53,280
Speaker 2: You're right, yeah it is. Isn't it okay to me?

1214
01:02:53,480 --> 01:02:57,440
Speaker 4: To me that Broadway is not not a healthy sign.

1215
01:02:57,840 --> 01:02:59,360
Speaker 4: And to me, and you know I live in New York,

1216
01:03:00,400 --> 01:03:02,160
Speaker 4: is a stunt cast revival of something.

1217
01:03:02,200 --> 01:03:06,360
Speaker 2: You're right, they're doing what the movies do. They're doing like, hey, look,

1218
01:03:06,440 --> 01:03:07,200
Speaker 2: Marvel Universe.

1219
01:03:07,840 --> 01:03:10,680
Speaker 4: You know, I didn't get to see a DNA menzilk

1220
01:03:10,760 --> 01:03:12,120
Speaker 4: climbing that tree. That that one.

1221
01:03:12,120 --> 01:03:14,040
Speaker 3: But that looks cool, But I guess it's closing. It

1222
01:03:14,040 --> 01:03:14,800
Speaker 3: didn't do all enough.

1223
01:03:14,920 --> 01:03:17,960
Speaker 1: So I learned from an interview I did with the

1224
01:03:18,080 --> 01:03:21,920
Speaker 1: UH with the with Debora kan Of the Diplomatic, creator

1225
01:03:21,960 --> 01:03:23,920
Speaker 1: of The Diplomat, and she worked for Aaron Sorkin that

1226
01:03:24,040 --> 01:03:28,480
Speaker 1: West Wing is musical theater that actually that it's designed.

1227
01:03:28,480 --> 01:03:30,640
Speaker 1: And I said, are you going to well, why haven't

1228
01:03:30,640 --> 01:03:31,880
Speaker 1: we seen West Wing on Broadway?

1229
01:03:31,960 --> 01:03:32,880
Speaker 2: She goes, well, we might.

1230
01:03:34,680 --> 01:03:36,480
Speaker 4: They're going to try to put everything they can on

1231
01:03:36,520 --> 01:03:38,520
Speaker 4: Broadway and most things will wash out, but a couple

1232
01:03:38,560 --> 01:03:39,160
Speaker 4: of them will stick.

1233
01:03:39,240 --> 01:03:41,560
Speaker 1: But this gets to the whole that this is why,

1234
01:03:41,560 --> 01:03:43,400
Speaker 1: I guess and we should end on this, which is

1235
01:03:43,840 --> 01:03:48,840
Speaker 1: that live in person experiential that that's probably we're the

1236
01:03:48,840 --> 01:03:53,440
Speaker 1: most where we'll see cultural innovation in the near term.

1237
01:03:54,120 --> 01:03:55,920
Speaker 4: I think that I think that's a big part of it,

1238
01:03:55,960 --> 01:03:58,320
Speaker 4: But I really think more action will be just what's

1239
01:03:58,320 --> 01:04:01,480
Speaker 4: happening on our phones and people using you know, the

1240
01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:05,480
Speaker 4: back of now is probably going to be someone doing

1241
01:04:05,560 --> 01:04:09,200
Speaker 4: something really interesting with George form video I found. I

1242
01:04:09,240 --> 01:04:11,360
Speaker 4: can't point to who that is yet, and I hope

1243
01:04:11,360 --> 01:04:14,400
Speaker 4: that we're gonna all find the Beyonce of Tiktoks soon

1244
01:04:14,520 --> 01:04:15,160
Speaker 4: or something like that.

1245
01:04:15,880 --> 01:04:17,760
Speaker 1: Well, mister Beasts might have something to say about that

1246
01:04:17,760 --> 01:04:22,080
Speaker 1: before will not even I won't introduce that into the chat.

1247
01:04:22,240 --> 01:04:25,959
Speaker 1: You know, we'll let that go. Pencer, this is great.

1248
01:04:26,040 --> 01:04:27,120
Speaker 1: Thanks for humoring me and this.

1249
01:04:27,880 --> 01:04:32,200
Speaker 4: Thanks, Chuck, really appreciate it. And keep streaming those six services.

1250
01:04:33,040 --> 01:04:36,240
Speaker 2: Yes, well, because somebody's got to keep them in business.

1251
01:04:35,920 --> 01:04:44,400
Speaker 3: Right, exactly, exactly, all.

1252
01:04:44,400 --> 01:04:47,240
Speaker 1: Right, Now you've found out how many music sites I

1253
01:04:47,280 --> 01:04:47,920
Speaker 1: subscribe to.

1254
01:04:48,040 --> 01:04:48,920
Speaker 2: But yes, it.

1255
01:04:48,960 --> 01:04:53,400
Speaker 1: Drives me crazy. My war on algorithms. Algorithms are what

1256
01:04:53,560 --> 01:04:58,280
Speaker 1: poison culture. Human beings are what create culture. But we

1257
01:04:58,320 --> 01:05:01,680
Speaker 1: all know this, right, all right, let's do a little

1258
01:05:01,720 --> 01:05:08,440
Speaker 1: last Chuck, ask Chuck. All right, first question comes from

1259
01:05:08,600 --> 01:05:12,400
Speaker 1: Gary of newberry Port, Massachusetts or defense and security experts

1260
01:05:12,400 --> 01:05:15,080
Speaker 1: concerned about the Trump Administration's pushed to have European countries

1261
01:05:15,480 --> 01:05:18,760
Speaker 1: increase their defense budgets for the past eighty years. Having

1262
01:05:18,800 --> 01:05:21,600
Speaker 1: the US Service the continents to facto security force seemed

1263
01:05:21,600 --> 01:05:24,080
Speaker 1: to be a key factor in the prolonged piece the

1264
01:05:24,160 --> 01:05:27,000
Speaker 1: region is seen given their centuries long history of conflict

1265
01:05:27,240 --> 01:05:29,560
Speaker 1: when there is no backstop and terif related changes in

1266
01:05:29,600 --> 01:05:33,720
Speaker 1: global trade connections and alliances. Should the world be nervous

1267
01:05:33,760 --> 01:05:37,600
Speaker 1: about a more heavily armed Europe? Well, Gary, I feel like,

1268
01:05:37,760 --> 01:05:40,160
Speaker 1: are you asking a question or are you really making

1269
01:05:40,200 --> 01:05:46,439
Speaker 1: a statement? Because yes, I think we know. I say

1270
01:05:46,440 --> 01:05:50,640
Speaker 1: this mostly tongue in cheek, but a little bit nervous.

1271
01:05:50,720 --> 01:05:55,440
Speaker 1: I mean, the last time Germany was able to rearm,

1272
01:05:55,480 --> 01:05:56,040
Speaker 1: how did that.

1273
01:05:55,960 --> 01:05:56,880
Speaker 2: Go for Europe?

1274
01:05:57,440 --> 01:06:02,120
Speaker 1: Right, we're now going to put France is thinking about

1275
01:06:02,120 --> 01:06:04,560
Speaker 1: putting it spreading its nuclear weapons all over the continent.

1276
01:06:04,600 --> 01:06:05,960
Speaker 2: Maybe that's not a bad idea.

1277
01:06:06,000 --> 01:06:08,040
Speaker 1: The more you have them in different countries, maybe that

1278
01:06:08,080 --> 01:06:12,480
Speaker 1: does sort of potentially keep an uneasy peace right, sort

1279
01:06:12,520 --> 01:06:18,040
Speaker 1: of the mad mantra mutual assured destruction. But look, this

1280
01:06:18,120 --> 01:06:23,960
Speaker 1: is you know, the this is what bothers me about

1281
01:06:24,040 --> 01:06:26,080
Speaker 1: sort of. So on one hand, Trump wants to be

1282
01:06:27,480 --> 01:06:31,440
Speaker 1: the pre eminent power of the world. Well, we are

1283
01:06:31,440 --> 01:06:31,800
Speaker 1: the pre.

1284
01:06:31,720 --> 01:06:32,920
Speaker 2: Eminent power of the world.

1285
01:06:33,120 --> 01:06:35,400
Speaker 1: And one of the reasons we are is because we

1286
01:06:35,640 --> 01:06:39,520
Speaker 1: are the security defense for Europe heartstop.

1287
01:06:40,080 --> 01:06:41,040
Speaker 2: We are that umbrella.

1288
01:06:41,640 --> 01:06:45,320
Speaker 1: We basically are in charge of securing two continents, North

1289
01:06:45,360 --> 01:06:48,880
Speaker 1: America and arguably that means we basically are going to

1290
01:06:48,960 --> 01:06:53,560
Speaker 1: protect South America, although that hasn't fully fully been premise,

1291
01:06:53,600 --> 01:06:58,560
Speaker 1: hasn't been tested, and Europe. Right, so two and a

1292
01:06:58,600 --> 01:07:03,840
Speaker 1: half continents we're providing security for. That's nobody else. That's

1293
01:07:04,400 --> 01:07:07,560
Speaker 1: that's a super duper power. So we want to give

1294
01:07:07,560 --> 01:07:10,520
Speaker 1: that up, right, There's Look, there's always been a movement

1295
01:07:10,560 --> 01:07:12,520
Speaker 1: on the right, the sort of the isolationist wing of

1296
01:07:12,560 --> 01:07:16,320
Speaker 1: the party, clearly where jad Vance comes from. Trump basically

1297
01:07:16,400 --> 01:07:18,240
Speaker 1: has stumbled into that part of it. You know, I

1298
01:07:18,240 --> 01:07:21,160
Speaker 1: don't think he's naturally thinks this way. I think he

1299
01:07:21,280 --> 01:07:23,240
Speaker 1: just sort of he is just at the end of

1300
01:07:23,280 --> 01:07:27,040
Speaker 1: the day, transactional and binary. So he ends up in

1301
01:07:27,080 --> 01:07:29,880
Speaker 1: that category. I think Vance is more of a true

1302
01:07:29,880 --> 01:07:33,240
Speaker 1: believer in the sort of isolationism, if you will, or

1303
01:07:33,360 --> 01:07:36,200
Speaker 1: sort of let let everybody manage their own affairs and

1304
01:07:36,280 --> 01:07:39,000
Speaker 1: let's see what happens. The fact is that it hasn't

1305
01:07:39,040 --> 01:07:40,760
Speaker 1: worked for the globe. Right, that is not a way

1306
01:07:40,760 --> 01:07:42,600
Speaker 1: to keep peace. That is not a way to keep security.

1307
01:07:42,640 --> 01:07:47,080
Speaker 1: So look, I'm not sure it's a good it's a

1308
01:07:47,080 --> 01:07:49,760
Speaker 1: good move. I think it makes America less secure, and

1309
01:07:49,760 --> 01:07:52,280
Speaker 1: I think it makes the world less secure, pure and simple,

1310
01:07:53,320 --> 01:07:56,320
Speaker 1: all right, Matt w Wright, you are one hundred percent

1311
01:07:56,360 --> 01:07:58,080
Speaker 1: correct about doubling the size of the house, but it

1312
01:07:58,120 --> 01:08:00,560
Speaker 1: will remain gridlocked if that's all we change our first

1313
01:08:00,600 --> 01:08:03,360
Speaker 1: past the post elections give us the two parties and

1314
01:08:03,400 --> 01:08:06,160
Speaker 1: the resulting incentives to resist compromise. In your episode with

1315
01:08:06,240 --> 01:08:09,520
Speaker 1: Rob sand he advocated for approval voting and open primaries.

1316
01:08:09,560 --> 01:08:12,520
Speaker 1: I like that idea, but I prefer ranked approval voting.

1317
01:08:12,720 --> 01:08:16,000
Speaker 1: The candidate with the highest approval score moves on wins.

1318
01:08:16,280 --> 01:08:18,719
Speaker 1: I'm not a fan of what traditionally gets called ranked

1319
01:08:18,840 --> 01:08:22,200
Speaker 1: choice voting, i e. Automatic runoff voting. It's barely any

1320
01:08:22,200 --> 01:08:25,040
Speaker 1: better than first past the post. What is your preferred

1321
01:08:25,120 --> 01:08:28,599
Speaker 1: voting method that would break the two parties into four

1322
01:08:28,680 --> 01:08:32,040
Speaker 1: plus competitive parties with the incentive to compromise in Washington?

1323
01:08:32,400 --> 01:08:36,000
Speaker 1: Would you consider advocating for that system as vociferously as

1324
01:08:36,000 --> 01:08:38,839
Speaker 1: for open primaries and for doubling the size of the house.

1325
01:08:39,880 --> 01:08:43,000
Speaker 1: Love the show, Thank you, and thank you. For listening. Look,

1326
01:08:43,200 --> 01:08:46,240
Speaker 1: I have not thought hard enough about first past the

1327
01:08:46,240 --> 01:08:50,080
Speaker 1: post ideas. I will say this, here's what I want. Okay,

1328
01:08:50,560 --> 01:08:55,920
Speaker 1: ranked choice voting just does It isn't going to get

1329
01:08:55,960 --> 01:08:59,880
Speaker 1: the trust of the public. It is a it could work,

1330
01:09:00,360 --> 01:09:03,800
Speaker 1: and in theory I basically would like to do it,

1331
01:09:03,840 --> 01:09:07,120
Speaker 1: but the hard way, which is I think the top

1332
01:09:07,200 --> 01:09:10,320
Speaker 1: four should move to a general election and then you

1333
01:09:10,400 --> 01:09:13,040
Speaker 1: pick from there and if nobody gets fifty, the top

1334
01:09:13,080 --> 01:09:15,000
Speaker 1: two meet again in a runoff.

1335
01:09:15,120 --> 01:09:17,080
Speaker 2: That's what I think right now.

1336
01:09:17,080 --> 01:09:19,640
Speaker 1: If you can decide as a party, whether you know,

1337
01:09:19,680 --> 01:09:22,639
Speaker 1: we could have you know, I'd love to see open

1338
01:09:22,680 --> 01:09:27,840
Speaker 1: primaries completely. Top four advanced to the general without you know, one, two, three, four,

1339
01:09:27,880 --> 01:09:30,639
Speaker 1: whatever it is, and then the top two if nobody

1340
01:09:30,640 --> 01:09:33,320
Speaker 1: gets fifty, would meet in a run off. I think

1341
01:09:33,360 --> 01:09:36,800
Speaker 1: that gives everybody a voice. I think that would open

1342
01:09:36,880 --> 01:09:41,639
Speaker 1: things up. You know, I don't want to dismiss first

1343
01:09:41,640 --> 01:09:44,519
Speaker 1: past the post ideas. It might be a better way.

1344
01:09:44,560 --> 01:09:46,320
Speaker 1: You know, if we do double the size of the house,

1345
01:09:46,360 --> 01:09:48,600
Speaker 1: you know, maybe some states will want to go to

1346
01:09:48,680 --> 01:09:52,080
Speaker 1: multi you know, there's there's some thought that you could

1347
01:09:53,120 --> 01:09:54,880
Speaker 1: you know, let's say you're a state that has eight

1348
01:09:54,880 --> 01:09:59,040
Speaker 1: congressional districts. So, for instance, and I'll give you an

1349
01:09:59,040 --> 01:10:01,439
Speaker 1: example of this. Mindid County used to elect it. All

1350
01:10:01,479 --> 01:10:04,680
Speaker 1: school board members were elected county wide and it was

1351
01:10:04,760 --> 01:10:07,880
Speaker 1: the I think they had. Let's say there were nine

1352
01:10:07,880 --> 01:10:10,000
Speaker 1: members of the of the school board, the top nine

1353
01:10:10,040 --> 01:10:15,400
Speaker 1: advanced and the and was the school board. There's some

1354
01:10:15,439 --> 01:10:19,000
Speaker 1: people that think, hey, maybe you hold your congressional elections.

1355
01:10:19,560 --> 01:10:21,800
Speaker 1: So if you're a state that has eight congressional districts,

1356
01:10:22,120 --> 01:10:25,679
Speaker 1: everybody runs statewide, everybody votes statewide, and the top eight

1357
01:10:26,760 --> 01:10:30,200
Speaker 1: get because this is a the the thinking there is

1358
01:10:30,880 --> 01:10:33,519
Speaker 1: if you get the top eight, and if you would

1359
01:10:33,520 --> 01:10:37,040
Speaker 1: get sort of pooled voting, right, you know, maybe some

1360
01:10:37,280 --> 01:10:40,960
Speaker 1: group would vote on identity politics and and surface up

1361
01:10:41,000 --> 01:10:44,120
Speaker 1: one type of candidate. Maybe some group would practice ideological

1362
01:10:44,160 --> 01:10:47,160
Speaker 1: politics and surface another type of candidate. But that you know,

1363
01:10:47,600 --> 01:10:49,759
Speaker 1: if you had top eight, you would get a pretty

1364
01:10:50,240 --> 01:10:53,439
Speaker 1: you get a congressional delegation that truly was representative of

1365
01:10:53,520 --> 01:10:56,880
Speaker 1: the entire state. Now the problem with that is what

1366
01:10:56,960 --> 01:11:00,840
Speaker 1: if all eight you know, let's say you're talking, you're

1367
01:11:00,880 --> 01:11:03,360
Speaker 1: talking the state of Iowa, and you get eight, but

1368
01:11:03,439 --> 01:11:07,040
Speaker 1: all eight are from des Moines, right, and you don't

1369
01:11:07,400 --> 01:11:11,439
Speaker 1: have anybody from Cedar Rapids or Debuque or Sioux City.

1370
01:11:11,720 --> 01:11:15,160
Speaker 1: You get my point, right, So, but you know, it's

1371
01:11:15,200 --> 01:11:18,559
Speaker 1: one of those ideas that I don't dismiss, say in

1372
01:11:18,600 --> 01:11:22,240
Speaker 1: a county for state representative races, right, or for state

1373
01:11:22,360 --> 01:11:25,160
Speaker 1: senate races if you have a large enough state senator

1374
01:11:25,200 --> 01:11:28,960
Speaker 1: state house. So I think there are circumstances where that

1375
01:11:29,080 --> 01:11:32,800
Speaker 1: might be an interesting idea. But ultimately, when it comes

1376
01:11:32,880 --> 01:11:36,960
Speaker 1: to statewide elections and sort of larger elections, you know,

1377
01:11:37,280 --> 01:11:40,679
Speaker 1: I think we you know, we ought to have top

1378
01:11:40,720 --> 01:11:45,280
Speaker 1: four in general and opens it up to other primaries,

1379
01:11:45,479 --> 01:11:49,000
Speaker 1: to other political parties. The duopoly is what is stifling

1380
01:11:49,640 --> 01:11:53,479
Speaker 1: innovation in American politics. That is just a fact that

1381
01:11:53,560 --> 01:11:58,280
Speaker 1: doopoly stifles it. If these were private organizations, you know,

1382
01:11:58,520 --> 01:12:01,439
Speaker 1: I think there'd be a that the FTC that they

1383
01:12:01,439 --> 01:12:03,960
Speaker 1: could break up this duopoly. But you know, this isn't

1384
01:12:03,960 --> 01:12:07,240
Speaker 1: how it works, since guess who runs the FTC. The duopoly, right,

1385
01:12:08,360 --> 01:12:10,839
Speaker 1: There's never been a duopoly that's never been more embedded

1386
01:12:10,840 --> 01:12:13,880
Speaker 1: in government than the GOP and the Democratic Party. I

1387
01:12:15,320 --> 01:12:19,120
Speaker 1: think we've got to come up with infrastructure, voting infrastructure

1388
01:12:19,680 --> 01:12:26,360
Speaker 1: that that incentivizes non major party candidates, that allows people

1389
01:12:26,439 --> 01:12:29,559
Speaker 1: who are independent, That allows people who have a different

1390
01:12:29,560 --> 01:12:31,680
Speaker 1: points of view to feel as if their voice can

1391
01:12:31,760 --> 01:12:36,880
Speaker 1: be heard in a reasonable way. So I'm really glad

1392
01:12:36,880 --> 01:12:38,880
Speaker 1: you picked up on the rob sandpoint about first past

1393
01:12:38,920 --> 01:12:42,200
Speaker 1: the post and the improval ideas. Look, all of these

1394
01:12:42,200 --> 01:12:45,439
Speaker 1: things I think will be coming to various states over

1395
01:12:45,479 --> 01:12:48,080
Speaker 1: the next twenty or thirty years. I think we're we're

1396
01:12:48,120 --> 01:12:50,840
Speaker 1: going into a period. You know, it's one of these things.

1397
01:12:50,840 --> 01:12:53,799
Speaker 1: I can't wait for fifty years from now for political

1398
01:12:53,840 --> 01:12:56,080
Speaker 1: scientists to talk about the fifty years that we're about

1399
01:12:56,120 --> 01:12:58,000
Speaker 1: to experience, because I think it's a I think we're

1400
01:12:58,000 --> 01:13:00,280
Speaker 1: going to have a lot of reform, experiment, experiment. Some

1401
01:13:00,320 --> 01:13:02,760
Speaker 1: will work, some well, just like what happened arguably in

1402
01:13:02,760 --> 01:13:04,960
Speaker 1: the first fifty years of the twentieth century. You know,

1403
01:13:05,040 --> 01:13:08,599
Speaker 1: some of them stuck right, direct election of senators, giving

1404
01:13:08,600 --> 01:13:12,800
Speaker 1: women the right to vote, Some didn't, prohibition. So you know,

1405
01:13:13,720 --> 01:13:17,200
Speaker 1: I do think we all agree that the system as

1406
01:13:17,240 --> 01:13:20,719
Speaker 1: it stands doesn't work, and I think, you know, thanks

1407
01:13:20,720 --> 01:13:23,400
Speaker 1: to the fifty States, we should start seeing some interesting

1408
01:13:23,439 --> 01:13:27,000
Speaker 1: experiments beginning sooner rather than later, rank choice voting being

1409
01:13:27,080 --> 01:13:29,360
Speaker 1: one of them that we're already seeing play out. And

1410
01:13:29,360 --> 01:13:31,960
Speaker 1: we're kicking the tires on it. And this was something

1411
01:13:31,960 --> 01:13:37,160
Speaker 1: I was a huge advocate of. Now I'm like you, Matt,

1412
01:13:37,200 --> 01:13:39,479
Speaker 1: I'm a little a little less into it than I

1413
01:13:39,600 --> 01:13:45,160
Speaker 1: was before. All Right, last question, doctor Walters, Well the

1414
01:13:45,200 --> 01:13:47,960
Speaker 1: cognitive Biden litmus tests become the Democratic version of the

1415
01:13:47,960 --> 01:13:51,960
Speaker 1: twenty twenty election or January sixth or will this remain

1416
01:13:52,000 --> 01:13:55,400
Speaker 1: a non healing wound until it is acknowledged and apologized for. Lastly,

1417
01:13:55,439 --> 01:13:58,040
Speaker 1: if you were Budhajid or another prominent Democrat, how would

1418
01:13:58,080 --> 01:14:03,400
Speaker 1: you answer the Biden cognitive question? Well, this, I don't

1419
01:14:03,400 --> 01:14:08,479
Speaker 1: know if we know the answer just yet. You know,

1420
01:14:08,479 --> 01:14:11,960
Speaker 1: there's a fine line here. I go back to Carter

1421
01:14:12,040 --> 01:14:15,080
Speaker 1: and Ducacus right in Mondale. They were you know, when

1422
01:14:15,080 --> 01:14:18,200
Speaker 1: you lose, you're usually sort of ostracized in a form,

1423
01:14:18,280 --> 01:14:19,280
Speaker 1: in one form or another.

1424
01:14:21,840 --> 01:14:22,679
Speaker 2: I'm trying to remember.

1425
01:14:22,840 --> 01:14:25,000
Speaker 1: I think, you know, I certainly think Mondale in eighty

1426
01:14:25,000 --> 01:14:27,479
Speaker 1: four acknowledged Carter. I think Carter was at his convention.

1427
01:14:27,520 --> 01:14:32,519
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if he spoke at that convention. Certainly

1428
01:14:32,680 --> 01:14:34,920
Speaker 1: was not a part of the Clinton ninety two convention,

1429
01:14:35,120 --> 01:14:42,479
Speaker 1: right or any of that. I I think that I

1430
01:14:42,479 --> 01:14:46,719
Speaker 1: think it's possible that the Democrat that wins the nomination

1431
01:14:46,880 --> 01:14:48,759
Speaker 1: is the one with the least amount of Biden ties.

1432
01:14:49,880 --> 01:14:52,040
Speaker 1: Now what does that mean. Does that mean no Biden

1433
01:14:52,080 --> 01:14:55,920
Speaker 1: cabinet secretaries or a Biden cabinet secretary makes it through

1434
01:14:55,960 --> 01:15:01,000
Speaker 1: because the other candidates had closer ties to Biden. It's

1435
01:15:01,240 --> 01:15:06,400
Speaker 1: I do think it's going to be in the same way.

1436
01:15:06,479 --> 01:15:10,720
Speaker 1: The Bush brand was just forever tainted by WMD and

1437
01:15:11,040 --> 01:15:13,880
Speaker 1: not finding the WMD. And I think ultimately is why

1438
01:15:13,960 --> 01:15:17,000
Speaker 1: Jeff Bush's candidacy couldn't get off the ground, is that

1439
01:15:17,080 --> 01:15:22,439
Speaker 1: the Bush baggage still was too heavy to carry into

1440
01:15:22,920 --> 01:15:27,080
Speaker 1: a campaign in twenty sixteen, and the fact that Donald

1441
01:15:27,080 --> 01:15:29,479
Speaker 1: Trump not not only didn't get penalized for going after

1442
01:15:29,520 --> 01:15:31,960
Speaker 1: the Bushes, he seemed to get rewarded inside the party

1443
01:15:32,000 --> 01:15:34,719
Speaker 1: for having the guts to go after the Bushes.

1444
01:15:35,520 --> 01:15:37,519
Speaker 2: So it is.

1445
01:15:39,320 --> 01:15:44,000
Speaker 1: I suspect it will be somewhat of a litmus test,

1446
01:15:46,960 --> 01:15:48,800
Speaker 1: you know. To me, if I were Booto, I would

1447
01:15:48,800 --> 01:15:53,880
Speaker 1: just tell the truth right, which was Look, I didn't

1448
01:15:53,920 --> 01:15:57,559
Speaker 1: have a lot of interaction. I always had some question

1449
01:15:57,640 --> 01:16:01,200
Speaker 1: about this, but I felt confident Joe Biden because I

1450
01:16:01,720 --> 01:16:07,280
Speaker 1: because of what I was watching with Donald Trump, you know,

1451
01:16:07,479 --> 01:16:10,400
Speaker 1: I don't try to come up with something else. I

1452
01:16:10,400 --> 01:16:13,799
Speaker 1: think that's the likely answer. And if that's the answer,

1453
01:16:13,880 --> 01:16:15,360
Speaker 1: you just lean into it and own it.

1454
01:16:18,360 --> 01:16:18,559
Speaker 2: You know.

1455
01:16:19,120 --> 01:16:20,960
Speaker 1: I know that I'm not going to conduct of my

1456
01:16:21,040 --> 01:16:25,519
Speaker 1: presidency that way, you know, something like that. And I'm

1457
01:16:25,560 --> 01:16:28,200
Speaker 1: going to be for you know, mandating more medical records

1458
01:16:28,200 --> 01:16:30,559
Speaker 1: to do this or that. You know, I think you

1459
01:16:30,680 --> 01:16:36,680
Speaker 1: can deal with it. And if anybody can talk their

1460
01:16:36,720 --> 01:16:40,080
Speaker 1: way out of this one out of this, it's Pete Buotages, right.

1461
01:16:40,280 --> 01:16:43,920
Speaker 1: I don't know if others can as much. Pete is

1462
01:16:43,960 --> 01:16:46,639
Speaker 1: better at this than most. Right, he has the gift

1463
01:16:46,680 --> 01:16:52,480
Speaker 1: of gab. But it it's it's got to be believable.

1464
01:16:52,600 --> 01:16:56,880
Speaker 1: And like I said, I'm I I you know, I've

1465
01:16:56,920 --> 01:16:59,760
Speaker 1: had these conversations with with various folks over the over

1466
01:16:59,800 --> 01:17:03,080
Speaker 1: the past few years on this issue. It was Donald

1467
01:17:03,080 --> 01:17:07,320
Speaker 1: Trump's presence that created an illusion of reassurance.

1468
01:17:07,400 --> 01:17:07,920
Speaker 2: Call it.

1469
01:17:07,920 --> 01:17:11,080
Speaker 1: It was frankly, Democrats had their own version of Trump

1470
01:17:11,160 --> 01:17:15,200
Speaker 1: derangement syndrome, and in Trump arrangement syndrome, right, which the

1471
01:17:15,280 --> 01:17:18,679
Speaker 1: right likes to call every critic every once.

1472
01:17:18,560 --> 01:17:19,040
Speaker 2: In a while.

1473
01:17:19,320 --> 01:17:20,920
Speaker 1: But in this case, what I think one of the

1474
01:17:20,960 --> 01:17:24,599
Speaker 1: symptoms is you just assume everybody sees the worst version

1475
01:17:24,600 --> 01:17:28,000
Speaker 1: of Trump that you're seeing, and most voters, you know,

1476
01:17:28,080 --> 01:17:29,559
Speaker 1: not a lot of voters see that same version.

1477
01:17:29,600 --> 01:17:29,720
Speaker 2: Right.

1478
01:17:29,760 --> 01:17:30,960
Speaker 1: Some of it has to do with the bubble you

1479
01:17:30,960 --> 01:17:33,360
Speaker 1: live in and this or that. And I do think

1480
01:17:33,520 --> 01:17:35,320
Speaker 1: this was a version of people in the White House

1481
01:17:35,360 --> 01:17:38,040
Speaker 1: had Trump arrangement syndrome. You know, no way that January

1482
01:17:38,040 --> 01:17:39,960
Speaker 1: sixth guy is going to be able to beat even

1483
01:17:40,240 --> 01:17:43,400
Speaker 1: you know, a half awake Joe Biden. So it was

1484
01:17:43,560 --> 01:17:46,519
Speaker 1: all done under the cover of comforting themselves by the

1485
01:17:46,640 --> 01:17:50,160
Speaker 1: perceived weaknesses that they thought Donald Trump was bringing to

1486
01:17:50,240 --> 01:17:53,960
Speaker 1: this campaign. And they were weaknesses, they just weren't weaker

1487
01:17:54,000 --> 01:17:57,519
Speaker 1: than the biggest weakness that either Canadate had, which poll

1488
01:17:57,640 --> 01:18:01,720
Speaker 1: after poll after poll showed, was age and capacity to

1489
01:18:01,840 --> 01:18:06,519
Speaker 1: serve a full second term. I will tell you this,

1490
01:18:07,680 --> 01:18:09,719
Speaker 1: Pete's going to learn a lot if Kamala Harris runs

1491
01:18:09,720 --> 01:18:17,080
Speaker 1: for governor, how it'll be interesting to see if how

1492
01:18:17,120 --> 01:18:20,439
Speaker 1: forgiving California voters are of her, How she answers the

1493
01:18:20,520 --> 01:18:23,679
Speaker 1: question of why didn't what did she see? When did

1494
01:18:23,720 --> 01:18:26,840
Speaker 1: she first start becoming concerned? Does she lean into it

1495
01:18:26,960 --> 01:18:30,599
Speaker 1: or not? And does avoiding it create a problem for her?

1496
01:18:30,880 --> 01:18:33,360
Speaker 1: That you know, oh, she's not coming across authentic or

1497
01:18:33,400 --> 01:18:36,559
Speaker 1: honest or whatever it is. So if you're if you

1498
01:18:36,600 --> 01:18:38,479
Speaker 1: have some Biden baggage and you're thinking about running for

1499
01:18:38,520 --> 01:18:43,559
Speaker 1: president in twenty eight, watching how Kamala Harris navigates this

1500
01:18:44,160 --> 01:18:48,920
Speaker 1: and seeing how voters, particularly Democratic voters in California receive

1501
01:18:49,520 --> 01:18:55,639
Speaker 1: this will provide I think some guidelines for how those

1502
01:18:55,720 --> 01:18:58,720
Speaker 1: with some Biden baggage in twenty eight decide to deal

1503
01:18:58,760 --> 01:19:03,200
Speaker 1: with it. All right, I'm gonna stop there. I hope

1504
01:19:03,240 --> 01:19:05,880
Speaker 1: you enjoy your Memorial d weekend. By the way, I

1505
01:19:05,880 --> 01:19:08,639
Speaker 1: had a lot of fun with my friend Jason Page

1506
01:19:08,680 --> 01:19:12,360
Speaker 1: and his UH and his show on YouTube and syndicated

1507
01:19:12,360 --> 01:19:14,880
Speaker 1: around the country, his sports show. We had a good time.

1508
01:19:15,320 --> 01:19:18,160
Speaker 1: UH did a little uh uh if you want to

1509
01:19:18,240 --> 01:19:22,679
Speaker 1: check it out, had a fun interactions with Patrick McEnroe,

1510
01:19:22,720 --> 01:19:29,680
Speaker 1: among others. So take a listen, absolutely roast me for

1511
01:19:29,720 --> 01:19:32,760
Speaker 1: whatever sports takes you don't agree with. Hope you enjoy

1512
01:19:32,920 --> 01:19:36,479
Speaker 1: the weekend of sports, and let's hope, let's hope we

1513
01:19:36,520 --> 01:19:41,560
Speaker 1: get some competitive NBA basketball. I'm nervous. I'm nervous that

1514
01:19:41,720 --> 01:19:45,920
Speaker 1: these series is that we may be done. I have

1515
01:19:46,000 --> 01:19:50,480
Speaker 1: a feeling okay, see Denver was unofficially the NBA Finals.

1516
01:19:50,680 --> 01:19:53,000
Speaker 1: I hope I'm wrong, but we shall see with that

1517
01:19:53,320 --> 01:19:54,280
Speaker 1: until I upload a game.