1 00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:07,360 Speaker 1: Hi, everybody. It's Seth, the producer of Stuff to Blow 2 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:11,360 Speaker 1: Your Mind. I'm here in March to just pop on 3 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 1: a quick note into this episode saying, hey, it's March, 4 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 1: and you know what that means. We're all recording from 5 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:22,040 Speaker 1: our own homes, all separate, and all social distancing, so 6 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 1: that means the sound quality of this one is a 7 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: little strange. But just to let you know, each time 8 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 1: we've been doing these home recordings, they've been getting better 9 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 1: and better and better. So I can guarantee you the 10 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 1: next one's going to sound a little better than this, 11 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:35,559 Speaker 1: and the next one and after that's going to sound 12 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:38,200 Speaker 1: a little bit better than that one, etcetera, etcetera. So 13 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: just so you know, this is all temporary and we'll 14 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: get back to our regular episodes as soon as we can, 15 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: sound quality wise. Thank you very much and enjoy the show. 16 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to stot to Blow Your Mind, production of My 17 00:00:52,440 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey a, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 18 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and 19 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: we're back. We're still social distancing. Now. There must have 20 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: been a weird back and forth here because Thursday of 21 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 1: last week's episode we were broadcasting from our closet in 22 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 1: our laundry room, right, But then Tuesday of this week's episode, 23 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:21,680 Speaker 1: I think that was recorded in the studio before we 24 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: came home for the great retreat, that's right. And also 25 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 1: we record our vault episode intros about a month out, 26 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 1: so people might have noticed that as well. But this episode, 27 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 1: part two of our Look at the Moa Twilight of 28 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:39,760 Speaker 1: the Moa we're calling it. This episode is recorded from 29 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:43,039 Speaker 1: our respective closets in our homes. You're actually in a 30 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 1: closet now, as opposed to your your laundry room. Is 31 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: that correct? That's true. I decided to become a monster 32 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 1: in the closet. Uh, And I've got so I've got 33 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 1: the same talisman's that I had last time in order 34 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:57,559 Speaker 1: to bring me good luck and watch over me while 35 00:01:57,720 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: making this recording. I've got tom Atkins from Night at 36 00:01:59,920 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: the Creeps. I've got my thor Christ. But this time 37 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: I also brought in an extremely tasteful novelty mug that 38 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:09,359 Speaker 1: my wife found an East Tennessee thrift store, which is 39 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: great because I cannot bring this mug to the office. 40 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:14,080 Speaker 1: I am sure I would get in trouble for that. Yeah, 41 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 1: the home office brings with it certain advantages, doesn't it? 42 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 1: For For me, I looked around the house. I would 43 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 1: have loved to have had a toy of a moa, 44 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 1: like a little plastic like Schleck moa, But sadly we 45 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 1: do not have one, and it would be irresponsible for 46 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 1: me to even try and mail order one at the moment. 47 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 1: So you have a plastic Shrek, No I have. I 48 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 1: do have a plastic terror bird. So it's not accurate, 49 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: but it's it is still an extinct flightless bird. Uh 50 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 1: So I'm gonna set it right here next to my 51 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:45,679 Speaker 1: microphone and it will it will serve as my mascot. 52 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 1: Well mayor pocket sized titles watch over us. So, so 53 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: where do we leave off last time? All right? So 54 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 1: in our last episode, and if you didn't listen to it, 55 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 1: do go back and listen to that episode before this one. 56 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:59,640 Speaker 1: In it, we discussed the evolution of flightless birds and 57 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 1: the eyes of the moa, nine species of large flightless 58 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:07,959 Speaker 1: birds that evolved as the dominant vertebrates on the isolated 59 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 1: islands of what He's currently known as New Zealand. But 60 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: the rule of the moa did not last forever because 61 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 1: Homo sapiens arrived, and this episode will deal with the 62 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 1: subsequent extinction of the moa because you know what they say, 63 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:27,960 Speaker 1: more humans moa problems. I wondered how you were going 64 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 1: to work that in, saying, you know, I had to 65 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 1: get to it eventually. Yeah, yeah, that's true for i'd 66 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 1: say every organism except us, right, except maybe like hathogens 67 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 1: that that prey upon us. Right. Yeah, it's certainly when 68 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 1: we're dealing with with megafauna um creatures of that nature. 69 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 1: There's this is a tale of doom whenever humans enter 70 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 1: the equation, and we'll we'll point out some other examples 71 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 1: of that as we'd move along. No, wait a minute, 72 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: I'm thinking of some more exceptions. We got rats too, 73 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 1: I mean rats were great for them. Rat will come up. Yeah, 74 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:04,119 Speaker 1: so so, yeah, a few exceptions there. But you don't 75 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 1: want to be a moa when humans show up, right, 76 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 1: So the rule of the moa was lengthy. They evolved 77 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 1: into the into these dominant positions in New Zealand, but 78 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 1: as we discussed on the show before, it can be 79 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 1: precarious at the top, certainly for apex predators, but also 80 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:26,599 Speaker 1: from massive dominant herbivores, especially when something changes. Oh yeah, 81 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 1: we also talked about this in our episode. I believe 82 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 1: it was on the Leviattan or the Leviathan genus of 83 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 1: like the the ancient predatory sperm whale. That's right, yes, 84 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 1: where it's easy to look at a creature like that 85 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: or a creature like hosts eagle, which we discussed in 86 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:44,280 Speaker 1: the last episode, to look at these creatures and think, 87 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 1: well that there's no taking that down. That's that's that's 88 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:50,479 Speaker 1: a dominant organism. But it is, uh, you know, it 89 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,719 Speaker 1: is the ruler, but it is it is it's thrown 90 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 1: rest upon a precarious pyramid of bones. Yeah, heavy lies 91 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: the crown exactly. So yeah, when something changes, it can 92 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:06,279 Speaker 1: topple everything over. And in the thirteenth century c. I've 93 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: seen twelve a d c. As a potential date, a 94 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 1: major change arrived on the shores of New Zealand. And 95 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:14,799 Speaker 1: that change came in the form of Homo sapiens. Uh. 96 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 1: The long world changing wave of human migration had finally 97 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 1: made its way to you know, near the bottom of 98 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 1: the world, to this nation of the birds. And this 99 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 1: would have been what would come to be known as 100 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 1: the Mallory. Uh. These were uh, these settlers were a 101 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:36,599 Speaker 1: Polynesian people who arrived in several waves uh in what 102 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 1: is now New Zealand. This is one of the later 103 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:44,040 Speaker 1: regions of planet Earth to be settled by humans. Absolutely 104 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 1: like these were some of the last in true pioneers 105 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: heading into parts of the world, not not only parts 106 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 1: of the world that they had not been to before, 107 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:59,039 Speaker 1: but where no human had gone before. Um. You know, 108 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: the European colonists and explorers would only come in the 109 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: wake of these true pioneers. Now, Polynesian culture itself is 110 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 1: endlessly fascinating and I'd love to come back and deal 111 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: with some of the related topics on the show, such 112 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 1: as their amazing navigational abilities or the use of aquaculture 113 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 1: in the in the Hawaiian Islands. But essentially we're talking 114 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 1: about a long curving leg of human expansion that extends 115 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: from China through the Philippines, New Guinea, the Solomon Islands, Samoa, Tahiti, 116 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 1: uh Hawaii, Easter Island, and other islands in this broad 117 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:39,840 Speaker 1: stretch of the ocean. Again, they were the Polynesians were 118 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 1: the last true pioneers of human expansion, and Polynesian expansion 119 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 1: took place over the course of thousands of years as well, 120 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 1: and the culture evolved along the way it took takes 121 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 1: on ends up taking on different forms in the locations 122 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 1: where they land, often due to resulting isolation. Uh, you know, 123 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 1: because these are in many cases very far flung islands, 124 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 1: and and and sometimes we're talking about, you know, centuries 125 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 1: and centuries between people making it to one island versus another. 126 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 1: So New Zealand was discovered and colonized very late in 127 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 1: human expansion, and when the archaic Mallory arrived, they encountered 128 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: the moa. Following this encounter, the nine species of moa 129 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: would scarcely last more than another century, and they were 130 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: extinct by fourtet. So let's get into what we're mainly 131 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: going to discuss in this episode, this this collision between 132 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 1: Homo sapiens and moa. And probably the best place to 133 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 1: start there is by talking about just the word moa. 134 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: Where does it come from? I was reading in Prodigious Birds, 135 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 1: MOA's and Moa Hunting in New Zealand by Athol Anderson, 136 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 1: and the author shares that the earliest recorded use of 137 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: the word moa comes via Cornish missionary William Colenso who 138 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: in eighteen thirty eight heard that some Mallory described the 139 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 1: moa as a large bird, others as a large bird 140 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 1: with a face like that of a man who lived 141 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 1: in a mountain cavern that was guarded by two giant lizards. Wow. 142 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 1: This in other tales described the residents of Mount uh 143 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: Taranaki or Mount Egmonts described the very strange residents that 144 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 1: lived there, often taking the form of abnormal birds or lizards, 145 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 1: sometimes with human qualities. And this really lines up with 146 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 1: what we've talked about on the show before about sacred 147 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 1: mountains and holy mountains and the various myths that people 148 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:39,559 Speaker 1: accumulate regarding the sorts of things you would find there, 149 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 1: in the sorts of creatures that would populate those uh, 150 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: those mysterious cliffs up there. Yeah, there are a couple 151 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 1: of ways of looking at that. In our episode on 152 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 1: the Sacred Mountains, I guess we did two of those episodes. 153 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 1: I mean, one thing is we talked about the idea 154 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 1: that if you get really really high up there, there's 155 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:59,679 Speaker 1: some evidence that people sometimes start, you know, experiencing psychosis 156 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 1: or llucinations. Um, so, like that could be a source 157 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 1: of some supernatural beliefs in some cases. But but I'd 158 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: say probably the more prevalent issue is just that the 159 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:13,199 Speaker 1: top of the mountain is inaccessible, so it is naturally 160 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:16,079 Speaker 1: a place to put your mythical creatures at home in 161 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 1: You know that that is where they hide. Absolutely. Now 162 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: I know what some people are probably wondering here is 163 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 1: eight That sounds kind of late for the earliest recorded 164 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:28,440 Speaker 1: use of the word moa. Yeah, so how long would 165 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: the species have been extinct before the word appears in writing? Yeah? Yeah, 166 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: it's uh. It seems a little confusing at first, right, 167 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 1: because first contact between Europeans and Maori occurred December eighteen, 168 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 1: sixteen forty two, with Able Tasman's Dutch East India Company expedition. Now, specifically, 169 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 1: Europeans had been asking the Maori about other giant creatures 170 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 1: recorded in their traditions since the seventeen seventies. In the 171 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:02,559 Speaker 1: near two centuries at there was certainly communication and exchange 172 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:07,960 Speaker 1: between Europeans and Maori, in addition to, of course colonial subjucation. UH. 173 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 1: Anderson discusses this uh in his book, and it points 174 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 1: out that earlier references to the moa might either have 175 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 1: not been recognized or not associated with the term moa. Itself, 176 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 1: so you know, descriptions of the animal might not have 177 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 1: been immediately tied with moa. For instance, there were accounts 178 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 1: of spirits covered in hair in the form of birds, 179 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: and there was talk of how a giant kiwi lived 180 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:37,080 Speaker 1: in the mountains. Uh. And will again remind everyone that 181 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:40,200 Speaker 1: the kiwi and the moa are not actually all that related. 182 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:44,680 Speaker 1: But this, uh, this sort of discovery would have stemmed 183 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:49,079 Speaker 1: from Earth, from general European interests in the extent kiwi. 184 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 1: So you know, they might have been asking about the kiwi, 185 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 1: and they would have been heard about myths of giant 186 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 1: birds that are in some way like a kiwi. That 187 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 1: is interesting. Yeah, the idea that that the concept could 188 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 1: persist over time, especially if you have like something that's 189 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: morphologically very similar but just like much smaller to refer to, right. Yeah, 190 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:13,199 Speaker 1: And in all of this again we're just we're discussing 191 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 1: like European knowledge all of the moa, which is ultimately 192 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 1: tied to European knowledge and understanding of the mallory, which 193 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 1: of course is is a strained relationship, you know, to 194 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 1: say the least, because again you're talking about the the 195 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 1: indigenous people, the Mallory and you're talking about the the 196 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 1: colonial power that then arrives on their shore in the 197 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 1: form of the Europeans. Anderson also points out that a 198 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 1: major factor might be that the Mallory conceptionalize the moa 199 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 1: as not being true birds but is just being is 200 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:49,319 Speaker 1: being bird like, which Nights had a little confusing. But 201 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 1: then I think back to just some of the weird 202 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 1: things about the moa, you know, like that they the 203 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:57,200 Speaker 1: thing that that the fact that they had no wings, 204 00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 1: not even vestigial wings. They were just two limbed organisms. Um, 205 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 1: you can see why it might defy easy categorization. Likewise, 206 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 1: they're just the size of the larger species. Well sure, 207 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 1: I mean when we use the term bird now, I 208 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:13,319 Speaker 1: think like you and I are going to be referring 209 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 1: to an evolutionary clade, uh that is defined by evolutionary relationships. 210 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 1: But if you're just categorizing animals that you see in 211 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 1: the world, what are the bases on which you form 212 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:29,079 Speaker 1: your categories? Like a bird might well be understood as 213 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:32,040 Speaker 1: something that flies. So if there's something that, look, this 214 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: is kind of like a bird, and that it has 215 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 1: a beak and all that, but it doesn't fly, it 216 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 1: doesn't meet your necessary criteria for what makes something a 217 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 1: bird exactly. Yeah, and so the bones of the moa 218 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:46,680 Speaker 1: were apparently not described by the Mallory as bird bones, 219 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 1: but they were described as moa bones. So here's a 220 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 1: here's a quote from from Anderson and all of this quote. 221 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 1: It is very difficult to document this point, but the 222 00:12:56,440 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 1: separation of dangerous mythological moa from large birds used as 223 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 1: food and easily hunted to extinction in Pollock's description, and 224 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: the lack of any comparable prosaic tradition about MOA's in 225 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:13,200 Speaker 1: most of the moa stories collected by missionaries seems suggestive. Certainly, 226 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 1: it was the very lack of an unequivocal association between 227 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 1: the term moa and any straightforward account of large birds 228 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 1: hunted and eaten by maories which formed the main flaw 229 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 1: exploited throughout the long debate about what, if anything Maloris 230 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 1: had known about the dinner rithoforms. Oh, and the dinner eiforms. 231 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 1: That refers to the group to which the moa belong. Right, Yes, so, 232 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:41,719 Speaker 1: well we'll ponder this dangerous versus easy to drive to 233 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 1: extinction question as we perceive, because I'm not entirely convinced 234 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 1: this species can't be both of these things, you know, 235 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 1: certainly when humans and the humans in question have tools, tactics, 236 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:55,079 Speaker 1: and invasive species on their side. Oh sure. I mean, 237 00:13:56,679 --> 00:13:59,839 Speaker 1: some of the most dangerous creatures in a one on 238 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 1: in context are also some of the easiest to drive extinct. 239 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 1: I mean, if you just wanted to drive an animal extinct, 240 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:08,199 Speaker 1: what would be like the easiest ones to do, Probably 241 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:11,760 Speaker 1: like large carnivores, because there's already so few of them. 242 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 1: Of course, the moa were not carnivores like this, but yeah, 243 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: of course, like large animals generally being fewer in number 244 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 1: because of their energy requirements within the environment, would seem 245 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 1: to be easier to drive to extinction than if you 246 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 1: were trying to exterminate something that's very easy to kill, 247 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 1: like rats. Yeah, and again I think they the evidence 248 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 1: seems to indicate they would have been dangerous creatures because 249 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 1: these were big animals. Even the little bush moa was 250 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 1: four and a half feet tall. Now that's smaller than 251 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 1: an adult southern castlewary, which is generally five to six 252 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:46,359 Speaker 1: ft taller one and a half to one point eight meters. 253 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 1: But if you see one, you would not mess with it, right, Yeah, 254 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 1: they're they're fierce creatures. So it seems like the larger 255 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 1: species of Moa especially would certainly be in a position 256 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 1: to put the hurt on an aggressor and do so 257 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 1: in a way that's in keeping with what we see 258 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 1: in in extant rattite species. But does that mean they 259 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 1: were a match for the humans that arrived on their shores. No, 260 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 1: because the archaic now we were a very skilled and 261 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 1: advanced people. They arrived in waves from Hawaiiki, this is 262 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 1: a mythical land that is usually identified as Tahiti by historians, 263 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: and they were of course skilled sailors that arrived on 264 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 1: wooden vessels capable of traversing great distances at sea. For instance, 265 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 1: the distance between Tahiti and New Zealand is two thousand, 266 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 1: nine hundred and fifty miles or four thousand, seven hundred 267 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: forty seven kilometers. I mean, that's a long way to go, 268 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 1: even if you know exactly where you're going. But here 269 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 1: we're talking about like the settlement of a new, previously 270 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 1: unknown island, right, So yeah, I just I just really 271 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 1: want to drive home like the skilled nature of these 272 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 1: Homo sapiens that arrived um and what's more, they brought 273 00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: with them both human cunning and human tool use. They 274 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 1: are masters of the club and the spear especially. They 275 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 1: also brought with them other animals, including a breed of 276 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 1: domesticated Polynesian dog known as the curry, which, as with 277 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 1: other Polynesian dogs, did not bark, but apparently howl. They 278 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: also brought with them, quite by accident, the kiori, the 279 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: Polynesian rat um. Now the kori is still a pest 280 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 1: species in New Zealand because, as we know, once rats 281 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 1: become established anywhere, they're very difficult to get rid of. 282 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 1: The curry dog, on the other hand, has been extinct 283 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 1: since the arrival of Europeans, and we'll talk more about 284 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 1: that species in a minute. And they also brought with 285 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 1: them um plants as well, such as the sweet potato. 286 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 1: Well way, is there any thinking that the sweet potato 287 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 1: could be involved in driving them oa extinct or I 288 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 1: am not. I have not read anything to suggest that, 289 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 1: but but I mean that kind of that sort of 290 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 1: thing is certainly possible. Right generally speaking, when you have 291 00:16:56,280 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 1: humans from a distant land show up and introduce into 292 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 1: the ecosystem not only their destructive selves, but also invasive organisms. Uh, 293 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:08,920 Speaker 1: there's you know, you're just really upending the croc pie. 294 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:11,920 Speaker 1: You know, you're really changing the chemistry of the whole 295 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 1: ecosystem around potentially. Oh yeah, well, actually, now that I 296 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 1: think about it, I could totally see how I'm not 297 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 1: saying this is the case here, but I could totally 298 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: see how something like the sweet potato could drive a 299 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:25,640 Speaker 1: native species extinct. Because humans come, they bring with them 300 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 1: their crop staples. In order to plant those crops, they 301 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:33,359 Speaker 1: have to uh to establish agricultural zones that destroy natural ecosystem. 302 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:35,399 Speaker 1: So yeah, I could see it. Again, not saying we 303 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:38,400 Speaker 1: know that that happened here. All right, On that note, 304 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:40,440 Speaker 1: let's take a quick break, and when we come back, 305 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:44,640 Speaker 1: we will continue to discuss the collision between Homo sapiens 306 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 1: and the MOA. Than alright, we're back. So what do 307 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 1: you need as fresh colonists in a world like New Zealand. Well, 308 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 1: let's see classic hierarchy of needs. I'd say, first you 309 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 1: need you need fresh water, food, and shelter, probably right, 310 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, absolutely, Am I on the right track here? Yes? Yes, 311 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 1: But another need that I I didn't instantly think of, 312 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 1: And part of this is probably because I've never been 313 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 1: to New Zealand myself, so I don't have like the 314 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:17,119 Speaker 1: bodily experience of this. But New Zealand can be quite cold, 315 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:20,360 Speaker 1: so you know you're you're arriving in a new land, 316 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 1: but also a land where the temperatures dipped down a 317 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 1: bit more. Uh So the the Archaic Mallory, uh they 318 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: were fortunate and that they did bring within the coury dogs, 319 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 1: which helps solve some of these issues because the creatures 320 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 1: had many utalitarian uses. They could be eaten, their pelt 321 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 1: could be made into clothing, and other parts of its 322 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 1: body could be used for bits of clothing and tool 323 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:45,920 Speaker 1: use and so forth. But beyond that, you know, when 324 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 1: they started exploring this new world, they very quickly would 325 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:52,240 Speaker 1: have discovered the Moa, and the Moa would be just 326 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:55,680 Speaker 1: a gift of resources to these people. Now here's a 327 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:58,680 Speaker 1: question that researchers and historians have have pondered over the years. 328 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: So what sore of Moa population did the Archaic Mallory encounter. 329 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:06,119 Speaker 1: It's long been widely accepted that, you know, the newly 330 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:08,680 Speaker 1: arrived humans at least played a role in the extinction 331 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,440 Speaker 1: of the Moa. But there there there's been some disagreement 332 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:14,199 Speaker 1: in the past over to what extent. For example, did 333 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 1: the archaic Mallory encounter thriving populations of moa across much 334 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: of the islands, or did they encounter dwindling populations of 335 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 1: moa that were restricted to certain areas, or did they 336 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 1: find moa populations that were already in severe decline. And 337 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 1: of course, depending on the answer, it paints a different 338 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 1: picture of the extent of Maori moa hunting and the 339 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 1: impact of their arrival. You know, some could argue that well, 340 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: in perhaps climate change, volcanic eruptions and or disease had 341 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:49,399 Speaker 1: already impacted moa populations and humans were just the final straw. 342 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: So the moa certainly went extinct over the next century 343 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 1: or so. You know, there's no moa hiding in the 344 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: wilds of New Zealand, sadly, no matter what anybody might 345 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 1: try and tell you. And it wasn't until the nineteenth 346 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,400 Speaker 1: century that Europeans discovered evidence of the great birds, consisting 347 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:08,159 Speaker 1: of charred skeletons, gizzard stones and egg shells. They certainly 348 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 1: told the tale of their demise. DNA evidence, however, does 349 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:15,639 Speaker 1: shine light on the question of pre Maori moa populations 350 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:19,680 Speaker 1: as Rachel Newer wrote in The New York Times back 351 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:24,159 Speaker 1: in quote Morton Eric Allentoft, a researcher of the University 352 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 1: of Copenhagen, and colleagues analyzed DNA from two hundred and 353 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: eighty one moas collected from museums and new excavations and 354 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:35,159 Speaker 1: estimated the age of these specimens using radio carbon dating. 355 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: They found that in the millenniums before humans arrived in 356 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:42,400 Speaker 1: New Zealand, the MOA displayed none of the genetic bottlenecking 357 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:47,360 Speaker 1: indicative of a declining population. So there's no genetic evidence 358 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:50,359 Speaker 1: of a of a decline in the MOA during the 359 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 1: five thousand years prior to their rapid extinction. Uh, you know, 360 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:58,479 Speaker 1: via the human arrival. Okay, So what does that tell us? 361 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 1: What that leaves us with this version of the story, 362 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:04,120 Speaker 1: The archaic Mallory arrived on the shores of a new 363 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 1: land where strange, often gigantic birds were roaming around, and 364 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 1: through the use of spears and snares and hunting dogs 365 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 1: and the human cunning, they were able to bring the 366 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 1: birds down and process their kills with the same sort 367 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 1: of efficiency we see, you know, with the coury dogs. 368 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:24,119 Speaker 1: It's also possible that the moa had no natural fear 369 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:26,639 Speaker 1: of humans as well, which would have just made them 370 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 1: even more susceptible to this kind of harvesting. Well, yeah, 371 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 1: i'd imagine that's possible, especially without um, without large mammalian 372 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 1: predators on the island of New Zealand, Like they're only 373 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 1: real predator would have been the hostile eagle, right, which 374 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 1: they're adapted to a landscape in which the only thing 375 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 1: to worry about comes down at you from above. Uh. 376 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 1: Who knows what they would have done if, like, you know, 377 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 1: a bipedal hominid walks up to them in a group. Yeah, exactly. 378 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 1: And and plus their extinction didn't just come via the hunting. 379 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 1: Have grown adult MOA's because they're they're large, eggs were 380 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 1: certainly sought after foods as well. We see that from 381 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 1: some of the you know, the evidence of you know, 382 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 1: the finding egg shells and evidence of the eggs having 383 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: been consumed. And since the moa produced just one or 384 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:18,720 Speaker 1: two eggs, the harvesting of their eggs would have further 385 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 1: spelled doom for the nine species of moa. For example, 386 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:26,119 Speaker 1: the I believe this is a k Cora egg, the 387 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 1: largest moa egg ever uncovered would have weighed nine pounds 388 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:34,760 Speaker 1: when fresh. Wow. To put that in perspective, an ostrich 389 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:38,880 Speaker 1: egg typically weighs one point four kilograms or three point 390 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 1: one pounds, which is more than twenty times the weight 391 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,879 Speaker 1: of a chicken egg. So we're talking about you know, 392 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 1: two two people, uh that have arrived on these islands, 393 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: you know, struggling for existence like that. That's huge bounty 394 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: of resources in that egg. Do you ever see anybody 395 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 1: eat an ostrich egg? I feel like I have before 396 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 1: in the past, but I haven't. It's not the kind 397 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 1: of thing I've seen on the menu recently. It did 398 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:09,399 Speaker 1: not come highly recommended to me. Apparently, in addition to 399 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:11,640 Speaker 1: being very large, it's got a it's got a tough shell. 400 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 1: I guess, as you might imagine. You know, it can't 401 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: just have like an egg shell thick like a chicken 402 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:19,159 Speaker 1: egg shell thickness shell that's a little bit difficult to 403 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: get into. But then once you do get into it, 404 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:26,120 Speaker 1: tremendous nutritional resources. Yeah, I mean that that that that's 405 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 1: a one egg omelet for you. Yeah. So basically the 406 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 1: situation is the Mauori ended up hunting and harvesting the 407 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 1: moa faster than the moa could reproduce, and as the 408 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 1: bounty of moa flesh and bone dwindled, the moa hunting 409 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 1: Maori diversified and came to depend on fishing, fouling, uh 410 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,359 Speaker 1: in the gathering of mollusks, et cetera. And this led 411 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:51,919 Speaker 1: to the establishment of more permanent and semi permanent settlements. 412 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 1: So then it looks like it really was us. It 413 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:57,119 Speaker 1: was people that drove the moa extinct. Oh yes, I 414 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 1: I think at this point, especially with the genetic evidence, 415 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 1: that's that's with without question now. Is reported in Why 416 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:08,119 Speaker 1: did New Zealand's Moas Go Extinct? By Virginia Morrell Morton Allentoft, 417 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 1: who mentioned earlier evolutionary biologist at the University of Copenhagen 418 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:15,679 Speaker 1: remarked in that the idea may run counter to some 419 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 1: ideas that we tend to have about indigenous people. We 420 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:21,880 Speaker 1: often think of them, uh you know, living in equilibrium 421 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 1: with nature, but the mallory end up killing and eating 422 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 1: the moa at every stage of the creature's life. So 423 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: alan Toft contends that this sort of harmony with nature 424 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:37,919 Speaker 1: that we sometimes envisioned ultimately rarely exists within human beings, 425 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 1: and that any arriving humans would have extinguished the moa 426 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 1: the same way. And certainly we see other such extinctions, um, 427 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 1: you know, including the distinctions of large flightless birds due 428 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 1: to the arrival of humans. So again, don't think less 429 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 1: of the Maori for the extinction of the moa. Uh. 430 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 1: These great birds were always on a collision course with humans, 431 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 1: and if by some miracle the Polynesians had never found 432 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 1: New Zealand, the Europeans would have eradicated the moa on 433 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 1: their own. So again, it's an old story. Humans arrive somewhere, 434 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: mega fauna is hunted into extinction. We see that with 435 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 1: the mammoths, we see that with cave bears, giant kangaroos, etcetera. 436 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean it seems like a ubiquitous picture 437 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:26,400 Speaker 1: of human development and geographical spread, Like it is absolutely 438 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:31,680 Speaker 1: nothing unique about whatever individual culture reached this mega fauna first. Now, 439 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,160 Speaker 1: I think one of the really fascinating questions in all 440 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 1: of this is beyond the questions of like Europeans figuring 441 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 1: out what the Mallory thought about the moa, is just 442 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,479 Speaker 1: a question of like, what how does that impact a people? 443 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:46,440 Speaker 1: You know, to to have come to this, to come 444 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 1: to New Zealand to be essentially become the mallory. And 445 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,360 Speaker 1: in the process of becoming the mallory, you go through 446 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,680 Speaker 1: this period of Moa hunting mallory in which you have 447 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 1: this you know, this bounty of these these creatures to 448 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: to to hunt and feed on, and then they're gone. 449 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 1: Then you have to diversify and change the way you live, 450 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,639 Speaker 1: like what is the memory of that like in a people. 451 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:13,120 Speaker 1: I found a fascinating article about this published on The Conversation. 452 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:20,679 Speaker 1: It's by conservation biologist Priscilla Way, University of Waikato, Associate 453 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:26,439 Speaker 1: Professor him A Wanga and Professor of computational biology Murray Cox. 454 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 1: It was published in two thousand and eighteen and it's 455 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,719 Speaker 1: titled Dead as the Moa Oral traditions show that early 456 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 1: Maori recognized extinction interesting. So the team of researchers here, 457 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:42,119 Speaker 1: which includes a conservation biologist, a linguist, a bioinformationist, and 458 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:46,040 Speaker 1: experts in Maori culture. They stressed that tracing the centuries 459 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 1: old extinctions is difficult, but that through the collaborative analysis 460 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 1: of ancestral sayings traditional ancestral sayings in Maori culture, they 461 00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 1: found that early Maori certainly paid attention to the stay 462 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,680 Speaker 1: to flora and fauna in their environment, and that they 463 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:07,199 Speaker 1: recognized the extinction of the moa. But despite knowing roughly 464 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 1: when and who you know regarding the mo extinction, and 465 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:12,159 Speaker 1: we don't really know a lot about how the Malory 466 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 1: felt about and how they processed this event, which again 467 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:17,879 Speaker 1: would have been a major event in their lives. This 468 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 1: was the destruction of an important food source as well 469 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,879 Speaker 1: as a source of various tools and parts. Uh, some 470 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 1: of this remains in the Malory oral traditions, specifically in 471 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 1: these various ancestral sayings. So the researchers here they point out, 472 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,840 Speaker 1: uh that of these ancestral sayings, uh, the ones that 473 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 1: refer to birds anyway, a disproportionate number of them refer 474 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,479 Speaker 1: to the moa, to their appearance, to their into their nature, 475 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 1: and their uses to humans. All right, so what would 476 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 1: these things go like in translation? Well, yeah, I'm just 477 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 1: gonna share their translations. So they do. They include the 478 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 1: original Maori versions in this article, so and encourage anyone 479 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 1: to that it's interested to check that out. But like 480 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,679 Speaker 1: one of them is law lost, as the moa was lost. 481 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,639 Speaker 1: So that's kind of like an expression like dead as 482 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:09,680 Speaker 1: a doornail, like yeah, yeah, or hidden as the moa hit. 483 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,919 Speaker 1: And then here's another one, the people will disappear like 484 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 1: the moa. And this this one's really haunting because they 485 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 1: point out that as the Europeans arrived, the Maori compared 486 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 1: their plight to that of the Moa. So here's a 487 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:29,360 Speaker 1: quote Mauori recalled the moa. After Europeans arrived, two Mauory 488 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:33,160 Speaker 1: were suffering badly from diseases and deprivation. In the late 489 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,639 Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds. It was as though the Maori world was 490 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 1: being felled along with the forests. There was a very 491 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 1: real fear among both Maori and Europeans that Maori people 492 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 1: and culture would also disappear, just like the Moa. Wow, 493 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 1: that is haunting. Yeah, I'm still thinking about these expressions. 494 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:53,720 Speaker 1: I was trying to think of a point of comparison. 495 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 1: Of course, one is h is like gone the way 496 00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 1: of the dinosaurs h An EXPI in English. Though, of course, 497 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 1: our knowledge of where the dinosaurs went does not come 498 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 1: from cultural memory. It comes from like something we learned 499 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 1: through science. I guess you could maybe say gone the 500 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 1: way of the dodos. Some people say that that, Yeah, 501 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 1: though I guess when people say that they tend, they 502 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 1: tend not to do it with any accepted role in 503 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 1: the in the extinction. You know, like I feel like 504 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 1: that's one of the aspects here worth pondering, is that, 505 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 1: you know, the Mallory would have have realized that their 506 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 1: ancestors played this role in the extinction. Now that's not 507 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 1: to say that, you know, did it on purpose. Obviously 508 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 1: there's a there's a huge difference between you know, a 509 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 1: setting out to cause an extinction and I don't. You know, 510 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 1: obviously they wouldn't want to have to have done that, 511 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:47,120 Speaker 1: because these creatures were a source of of of of 512 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:51,120 Speaker 1: vast resources to them. But you know, they were you know, 513 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 1: ultimately it was it was not something that were capable 514 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 1: of exerting control over, you know, I mean, like it's 515 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 1: it's really has always been a human struggle to figure 516 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:04,720 Speaker 1: out to what extent we can exploit the natural world 517 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 1: without damaging it beyond control. And clearly, like that is 518 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 1: something that is still a major stumbling block to human beings. 519 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:17,240 Speaker 1: We still mishandle that same equation on a on a 520 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 1: daily basis. All Right, we're gonna take one more break, 521 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:22,520 Speaker 1: but when we come back you know we're gonna move 522 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 1: beyond the extinction of the moa and ponder the question, well, 523 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 1: could we bring the moa back? All right, we're back 524 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 1: a dinosaur story. Is that a movie? We're back a 525 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 1: dinosaur Story? You don't know that movie? I don't know that. 526 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 1: I do. Oh man, I think I rented that when 527 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:47,240 Speaker 1: I was a kid. Let's see when did that come out? Based? 528 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I rented that one when I was a kid. 529 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 1: That was that was a Turtles video. Find that I 530 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 1: brought home, cavenge that from the from the Bone Heap. 531 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 1: And I don't think it was good. Mean, I haven't 532 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 1: seen it since I was a child. It does not 533 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 1: seem like one of the animated dinosaur movies that would 534 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 1: hold up best. I don't know. I'm looking it up. 535 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 1: And this voicecast. You got John Goodman, you got Jay 536 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 1: Leno cron Kite. I think Walter Cronkite plays like a 537 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 1: mad scientist who brings dinosaurs through a tieme portal or 538 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,400 Speaker 1: something and puts him into New York in the in 539 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 1: the nineties. And Julia Child is in this really yeah, 540 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 1: does she play one of the dinosaurs? No, Sadly, she 541 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 1: plays a worker at the Museum of Natural History. Okay, well, 542 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe that would be uh interesting to 543 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 1: go back and excavate at some point, but yeah, it 544 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 1: looks great. It has four directors, always a good mark 545 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 1: of quality. Okay, so we're talking about the possible resurrection 546 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 1: of the moa. Now, there was a pretty good article 547 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 1: I was reading about this on stat by the science 548 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 1: writer Sharon Begley from February seven, uh, and it concerned 549 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 1: the possible d extinction and of one species of moa. 550 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 1: Of course, if you're not familiar with the concept of 551 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:06,480 Speaker 1: d extinction, it has come up on the show before, 552 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 1: but you can probably figure it out from the name, right. 553 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 1: It's also known as a resurrection biology. It refers to 554 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:14,960 Speaker 1: the process of bringing an extinct species back to life. 555 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:19,560 Speaker 1: The pop culture example that everybody knows is Jurassic Park. Now, 556 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 1: what did they do in Jurassic Park? They found ancient 557 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 1: deposits of amber or fossilized tree sap in which dinosaur 558 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 1: era mosquitoes had been trapped when the sap was still soft, 559 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 1: and then the sap hardened over time and then fossilized 560 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 1: in the ground. Presumably the the mosquitoes in the sap 561 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 1: were trapped with their bellies full of dinosaur blood that 562 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,640 Speaker 1: they had just feasted on. And so the scientists in 563 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 1: the book, in the movie Jurassic Park, they extract the 564 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 1: preserved dinosaur blood, they sequence it out, they get mr 565 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,040 Speaker 1: DNA from the from the insect bellies, and then they 566 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 1: use that blood and the DNA sequenced from it to 567 00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:00,160 Speaker 1: clone dinosaurs. It was, of course, I would say, y 568 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 1: ingenious plot device, but unfortunately it looks like it probably 569 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:06,400 Speaker 1: would not work in reality. What if? What if? The 570 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,360 Speaker 1: reason it didn't work, though, was that it turns out 571 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 1: the mosquitoes had not consumed the blood of dinosaurs, but 572 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 1: it consumed the blood of the time travelers from Ray 573 00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 1: Bradbury Sound of thunder Man. What what were the chances 574 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 1: that would be a very good closed time travel loop? What? 575 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 1: What do you like better the time travel movies where 576 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 1: you go back and actually changed the past, or the 577 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 1: ones where you go back and it proves to be 578 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:36,560 Speaker 1: a closed loop where you just cause whatever present already happened. 579 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 1: Oh well, you have to go back and forth between 580 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 1: the two. You know, I feel like that's the only 581 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 1: way it really works. You know, It's like it's the 582 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 1: sour in the suite with your time travel. But let's 583 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:51,880 Speaker 1: bring things back to Jurassic Park. Why didn't it work? Okay, 584 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 1: So basically there are several reasons, but they all come 585 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,480 Speaker 1: down to time. Now. One of the reasons is not 586 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:02,480 Speaker 1: in fact that you couldn't discover a mosquito with prehistoric 587 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 1: blood and its guts that uh. But believe it or not, 588 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:10,759 Speaker 1: paleontologists actually have discovered preserved insects full of the remains 589 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 1: of not not intact, but the remains of prehistoric blood 590 00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 1: in fossil beds. Uh. And this is a slight tangent. 591 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:19,640 Speaker 1: But I didn't already know this, and I was amazed 592 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:22,800 Speaker 1: by what I was reading here. So there's one prominent 593 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:24,640 Speaker 1: example I could find. I don't know if this is 594 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 1: still the only major example known today, but it was 595 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 1: described in a research article published in p N A 596 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:35,560 Speaker 1: s in called Hema Globin derived Porphyrion's preserved in a 597 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 1: Middle Eocene blood engorged mosquito. And it was by Dale E. 598 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:44,760 Speaker 1: Greenwal To, Julia S. Garreva, Sandra M. Celia Strom, Tim Rose, 599 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:48,360 Speaker 1: and Ralph E. Harback. And the discovery was also written 600 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 1: up by ed Young in a short news item for 601 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:55,319 Speaker 1: the journal Nature on October four. So, the researchers here 602 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:59,600 Speaker 1: were examining a total of thirty six mosquito specimens from 603 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:03,200 Speaker 1: a shape old deposit known as the Coal Creek member 604 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 1: of the kischen In formation in northwestern Montana, and the 605 00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:11,840 Speaker 1: layer from which they were recovered is estimated to be 606 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 1: about forty six million years old. So this collection of 607 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:20,560 Speaker 1: fossilized mosquitoes included two previously unknown species of the genus Cooliseda. 608 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,479 Speaker 1: One was cool Asseda kischen in and one was cool 609 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:29,280 Speaker 1: Asseda lemniscata. But one of the mosquitoes from the bonyard 610 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,160 Speaker 1: was truly special and you can look up images if 611 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:35,319 Speaker 1: you want on the internet. In the words of the researchers, 612 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,880 Speaker 1: the image of this specimen was quote obviously that of 613 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 1: a female blood engorged mosquito with non plumos antennae and 614 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 1: a very dark red black distended abdomen compared with the 615 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:53,319 Speaker 1: non hematophagus male. Uh so there's a new word for 616 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 1: your vampire fiction. By the way, him at a phagus 617 00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:59,440 Speaker 1: means eats blood or drinks blood. Non hematophagus would mean 618 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,680 Speaker 1: does not blood like the male mosquitoes. The male mosquito 619 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:06,359 Speaker 1: doesn't drink blood. Obviously, if your gut is busting with 620 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 1: blood like this, uh, this female mosquito here, you are 621 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 1: him out of vegas. But but ed Young writes in 622 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:16,840 Speaker 1: his summary that prior to this discovery, paleontologists had found 623 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,799 Speaker 1: fossils of blood sucking insects, but we always had to 624 00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,719 Speaker 1: guess what these insects were feeding on through kind of 625 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:27,960 Speaker 1: indirect cues, like preserved evidence of blood borne parasites contained 626 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,560 Speaker 1: in their digestive systems. This fossil find was totally different 627 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:36,080 Speaker 1: because it contained direct molecular evidence of blood feeding within 628 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:40,400 Speaker 1: the insects gut, specifically lots of iron and organic compounds 629 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:44,760 Speaker 1: called porphyrans, which are constituents of hemoglobin that's the protein 630 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:48,720 Speaker 1: responsible for transporting oxygen in blood. Uh. And the find 631 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:52,000 Speaker 1: was also extremely unlikely. In the words of the lead author, 632 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:56,239 Speaker 1: Dale Greenwalt quote, the abdomen of a blood engorged mosquito 633 00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,920 Speaker 1: is like a balloon ready to burst. It is very fragile. 634 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:03,560 Speaker 1: The chances that it wouldn't have disintegrated prior to fossilization 635 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:08,560 Speaker 1: were infinitesimally small. And it's amazing because that's on top 636 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:12,520 Speaker 1: of the already minuscule chances of any animal being fossilized 637 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:15,680 Speaker 1: in the first place. I mean, remember, the fossil lottery 638 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:19,400 Speaker 1: has few winners. Almost all organisms that ever live just 639 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:24,239 Speaker 1: decomposed and disappear without leaving a trace. But unfortunately, there 640 00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:27,120 Speaker 1: are a couple of reasons you cannot use this mosquito 641 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 1: or a mosquito like it to extract dino d n 642 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:35,200 Speaker 1: a Bengal dino. Both of these reasons have to do 643 00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:38,320 Speaker 1: with time. So the first is that the fossil mosquito 644 00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:40,840 Speaker 1: is only forty six million years old. So the last 645 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:43,440 Speaker 1: of the non avian dinosaurs we know died out in 646 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:47,439 Speaker 1: the KPg extinction that was about sixty six million years ago. 647 00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:50,759 Speaker 1: This mosquito would have been from the Middle Eocene. H 648 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:53,719 Speaker 1: So if it were possible to clone anything based on 649 00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:56,360 Speaker 1: what was in the mosquitoes guts, it would have to 650 00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,600 Speaker 1: be something that lived in North America around that period. 651 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,600 Speaker 1: And I was like, well, hell, I'll look up a candidate, 652 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,040 Speaker 1: and I found a pretty cool one that the coolest 653 00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:08,560 Speaker 1: candidate I could come up with was named Miss Sonics, 654 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,759 Speaker 1: whose name means middle claw and who was part of 655 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:17,640 Speaker 1: a now extinct, larger group of carnivorous ungulates. Carnivorous ungulates. 656 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:23,080 Speaker 1: Remember the unguluts are the hoofed mammals. Uh. So examples 657 00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:29,239 Speaker 1: would be dear you know, bo vines, uh, horses, but these, 658 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:31,880 Speaker 1: of course are carnivorous. You can't think of unguluts like 659 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:37,480 Speaker 1: that today. There were once predatory carnivorous hoofed mammals roaming 660 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,080 Speaker 1: the continents. Uh. You know, try to think of a 661 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:43,040 Speaker 1: donkey that could eat you. Yeah, and this is a 662 00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:46,520 Speaker 1: really cool one to look up paleo art for because 663 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:48,960 Speaker 1: it seems like it's just a very hard creature to 664 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:51,920 Speaker 1: try and envision in your head. You know, a lot 665 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:54,280 Speaker 1: of the illustrations end up just looking like this weird 666 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:58,120 Speaker 1: kind of like long snouted, almost almost like a cross 667 00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:02,680 Speaker 1: between a rodent and a lion. Uh. You get a 668 00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:05,359 Speaker 1: really really weird sense of category confusion when you look 669 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:08,719 Speaker 1: at these images. I mean, a lot of uh descriptions 670 00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:10,839 Speaker 1: say it would have been in some ways superficially like 671 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,239 Speaker 1: a wolf, but of course it was not of the 672 00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:16,359 Speaker 1: order of the dogs. It was not like a big cat. 673 00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:18,879 Speaker 1: It's not like a wolf. It's not any of that 674 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,880 Speaker 1: in terms of evolutionary relationships. It's more like a deer 675 00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:25,640 Speaker 1: or a cow or a horse or something, but it 676 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,000 Speaker 1: is a carnivore that would you know, might bite your 677 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:30,480 Speaker 1: leg off. So anyway, I'm all for cloning a ton 678 00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:33,320 Speaker 1: of those if we could. But again I want to 679 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:37,279 Speaker 1: stress that, uh, there was not clonable material within that 680 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:40,080 Speaker 1: mosquito's abdomen, and in fact, based on what we know, 681 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:44,280 Speaker 1: there couldn't be because the other reason you couldn't clone 682 00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:47,440 Speaker 1: dinosaurs from the gut contents of any mosquito is that 683 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:51,320 Speaker 1: DNA is extremely fragile. It breaks down very quickly, and 684 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:53,960 Speaker 1: it starts breaking down within hours of the death of 685 00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:58,240 Speaker 1: an organism. After forty six million years, DNA would degrade 686 00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:01,320 Speaker 1: to the point where a genome can longer be recovered, 687 00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:04,919 Speaker 1: all the more at anything older than sixty six million years. 688 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:07,680 Speaker 1: So you can't get to a dinosaur. Uh So then 689 00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:10,600 Speaker 1: you might wonder, well, how long can DNA last in 690 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:13,640 Speaker 1: in preserved animal remains. What's the farthest back that we 691 00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:17,040 Speaker 1: could go to sequence the genome of an extinct creature, 692 00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:20,960 Speaker 1: extract all that information, and then maybe even clone it 693 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:24,239 Speaker 1: back to life if possible. Well, the MOA has a 694 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:26,520 Speaker 1: part to play in the answer to this question. I 695 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,359 Speaker 1: found this out by total serendipity. I didn't even know 696 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:32,640 Speaker 1: this when I started looking into this subject. Uh So, 697 00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:36,280 Speaker 1: to determine the period within which you could reasonably expect 698 00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:39,239 Speaker 1: to extract usable DNA from a sample, you need to 699 00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:43,520 Speaker 1: know the rate of molecular decay for DNA as a molecule. 700 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,280 Speaker 1: And there was a study in that looked into this question. 701 00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:50,239 Speaker 1: It was by our friend Morton E. Allentoft that you 702 00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:55,080 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, but also by Matthew Collins, David Harker, James Highly, 703 00:40:55,960 --> 00:41:01,040 Speaker 1: Charlotte L. Oscome, Marie L. Hale, Paula F. Campos uh oh, 704 00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:02,880 Speaker 1: and apparently at others. I guess it had a lot 705 00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:05,919 Speaker 1: of authors. Sorry, but it was called the Half Life 706 00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:08,920 Speaker 1: of DNA and Bone Measuring Decay Kinetics in a hundred 707 00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:12,239 Speaker 1: and fifty eight dated Fossils published in the Proceedings of 708 00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:16,160 Speaker 1: the Royal Society b So. The authors here examined mitochondrial 709 00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:19,280 Speaker 1: DNA from a hundred and fifty eight radio carbon dated 710 00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:23,400 Speaker 1: bones of the extinct New Zealand MOA, all from between 711 00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:27,480 Speaker 1: six hundred and eight thousand years ago, and all preserved 712 00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:31,319 Speaker 1: in roughly equivalent environmental conditions. And that's very important because 713 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:33,360 Speaker 1: it gives us a point of reference. If like the 714 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,880 Speaker 1: conditions under which the bones are preserved or roughly the same, 715 00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:39,880 Speaker 1: then you can start to get a good idea between 716 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,759 Speaker 1: them what the average rate of decay is. It's not 717 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:45,840 Speaker 1: going to vary as much due to differing environmental factors. 718 00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:50,240 Speaker 1: Um So they estimated from this sample that the average 719 00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:53,880 Speaker 1: half life of DNA was about five hundred and twenty 720 00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:56,200 Speaker 1: one years. So you start with an original sample of 721 00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:59,480 Speaker 1: DNA and a bone, and after five dred twenty one years, 722 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:02,880 Speaker 1: half of it gone. Then after another five and twenty 723 00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:05,319 Speaker 1: one years, half of what remains is broken down, So 724 00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:07,919 Speaker 1: now you're down to a quarter of the original concentration. 725 00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:12,440 Speaker 1: So the the decay adds up fast. Uh. Now, of 726 00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:14,680 Speaker 1: course the decay rate of DNA will not be the 727 00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:17,239 Speaker 1: same in all cases. It's going to depend on factors 728 00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:21,839 Speaker 1: about in what conditions it's preserved. But even in ideal conditions, 729 00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:24,680 Speaker 1: there does appear to be a ceiling on how long 730 00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:28,319 Speaker 1: DNA lasts or or how long you could expect to 731 00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:32,040 Speaker 1: get any usable information out of it under the absolute 732 00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:36,360 Speaker 1: best conditions. This means basically, every molecular bond between the 733 00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:40,000 Speaker 1: nucleotides of the DNA would be broken down after about 734 00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,200 Speaker 1: six point eight million years, but long before that, even 735 00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:46,520 Speaker 1: if some bonds are still intact, the DNA would be 736 00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:50,760 Speaker 1: so broken up that would be unreadable. The maximum recoverability 737 00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:54,600 Speaker 1: threshold for meaningful genetic information might be something like one 738 00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:57,640 Speaker 1: point five million years or so. So it seems to 739 00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:00,480 Speaker 1: have been the scientific consensus for for several years now 740 00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:03,080 Speaker 1: that DNA is way too short lived for us to 741 00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:07,200 Speaker 1: ever clone dinosaurs. Except I did come across a really 742 00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:11,600 Speaker 1: recent study just from this month March. Uh Now, it 743 00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:16,080 Speaker 1: doesn't disprove that this, but it is a still controversial 744 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:19,840 Speaker 1: reported finding that would seem to challenge this if it's correct, 745 00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:23,040 Speaker 1: and so it was published in National Science Review in 746 00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:28,680 Speaker 1: March by Alita im Baliol at All and uh so 747 00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:32,800 Speaker 1: the the author's right here quote a histological ground section 748 00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:36,879 Speaker 1: from a duck bill dinosaur nestling in the species is 749 00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:43,960 Speaker 1: uh Hippacrosaurus Stebben Jerry revealed micro structures morphologically consistent with 750 00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:50,040 Speaker 1: nuclei and chromosomes in cells within calcified cartilage. We hypothesize 751 00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:56,040 Speaker 1: that this exceptional cellular preservation extended to the molecular level 752 00:43:56,080 --> 00:44:00,719 Speaker 1: and had molecular features in common with extant A V cartilage. 753 00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:04,000 Speaker 1: So this is a duck build dinosaur. It's another Montana 754 00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:06,840 Speaker 1: special discovered in the nineteen eighties. It would have been 755 00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:09,800 Speaker 1: a nest of young duck build herbivores that all died 756 00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:14,360 Speaker 1: sometime around seventy five million years ago, and the paleontologists 757 00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:18,400 Speaker 1: here were examining skull shards from these juveniles, and the 758 00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:20,880 Speaker 1: shards would have been made out of cartilage rather than 759 00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:25,640 Speaker 1: out of bone. But when examining these cartilage skull shards 760 00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:29,600 Speaker 1: are the remains of them? Uh. The researchers believe that 761 00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:34,040 Speaker 1: they discovered signs of intact cell nuclei and DNA within 762 00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:37,200 Speaker 1: these fragments, But then again, I want to say a 763 00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:41,200 Speaker 1: lot of paleontologists are skeptical about this supposed find. Of course, 764 00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:45,040 Speaker 1: there's the theoretical limitation on how long DNA would last, 765 00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:48,360 Speaker 1: or at least disbelieved to last on a molecular basis. 766 00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:51,480 Speaker 1: But I was also reading a piece by a University 767 00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:55,680 Speaker 1: of Bristol vertebrate paleontologist named Michael Benton, who thinks it's 768 00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:58,920 Speaker 1: more likely that if there is any actual DNA in 769 00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:02,879 Speaker 1: this sample, it came from recent external contamination, not from 770 00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:05,000 Speaker 1: a dinosaur. So I guess we'll have to wait and 771 00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:08,719 Speaker 1: see what happens there with follow up research. But I 772 00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:13,120 Speaker 1: don't know. That's interesting and he gives us some hope, right, 773 00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:15,080 Speaker 1: But I've got to bring it back to the moa. So, 774 00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:17,799 Speaker 1: whatever the truth about DNA from millions of years ago, 775 00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:21,919 Speaker 1: as unlikely as that seems, the MOA has existed much 776 00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:24,600 Speaker 1: more recently, and for that reason, the idea of recovering 777 00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:27,640 Speaker 1: the genome of the moa and bringing a species of 778 00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:31,040 Speaker 1: moa back from extinction is much more plausible by orders 779 00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:35,960 Speaker 1: of magnitude. So back to that Sharon Begley article from 780 00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:38,279 Speaker 1: she writes about how there's a team of researchers based 781 00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:41,480 Speaker 1: out of Harvard University that we're able to assemble an 782 00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:45,560 Speaker 1: almost complete genome for our old friend we mentioned in 783 00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:47,600 Speaker 1: the last episode, and I think earlier in this one, 784 00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:51,279 Speaker 1: the little bush moa or a nomal opterics did aform us. 785 00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:53,920 Speaker 1: So these again would not be the biggest ones. These 786 00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:57,400 Speaker 1: are not the towering moa. These would be the smaller variety. 787 00:45:57,440 --> 00:45:59,200 Speaker 1: But I would not be surprised if they could still 788 00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:01,480 Speaker 1: kick your throat out. You know, there probably were some 789 00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:04,840 Speaker 1: tough little customers as we were talking about earlier, the 790 00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:08,560 Speaker 1: little bush moa when extinct in the thirteenth century. Now, 791 00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:11,560 Speaker 1: this work was dependent on DNA extracted from the tow 792 00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:14,200 Speaker 1: bone of a moa that was housed in the Royal 793 00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:17,239 Speaker 1: Ontario Museum in Toronto. And this kind of reconstruction is 794 00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:20,239 Speaker 1: not easy at all, because, well, you can extract a 795 00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:25,640 Speaker 1: lot of genetic information the physical genome, like the chromosomes 796 00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:27,920 Speaker 1: are often kind of shattered, so you have to figure 797 00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:31,080 Speaker 1: out how all the pieces of information that you've extracted 798 00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:35,440 Speaker 1: fit together into a broader chromosomal structure. And as with 799 00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:38,040 Speaker 1: other assemblies of this kind, the researchers here looked into 800 00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:41,520 Speaker 1: the genomes of living relatives for clues, basing the reconstruction 801 00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:44,360 Speaker 1: of the pieces on the reference template of an emu, 802 00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:47,440 Speaker 1: kind of like how mammoth reconstruction would be based on 803 00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:51,040 Speaker 1: the genome of of living elephants and things like that. Now, 804 00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:53,680 Speaker 1: at the time of Begley's article, there were several experts 805 00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:56,640 Speaker 1: in the field who praised the work. A Morton Allen Toft, 806 00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:59,160 Speaker 1: who we were talking about several times, uh he called 807 00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:03,279 Speaker 1: it a significant step forward. Also, the evolutionary molecular biologist 808 00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:06,160 Speaker 1: Beth Shapiro of you see Santa Cruz praise the research, 809 00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:11,440 Speaker 1: there was one concerning feature. So this paper was published 810 00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:14,960 Speaker 1: on bio archive, which is a non peer reviewed preprint server. 811 00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:18,040 Speaker 1: It's so it's like, nothing wrong with something going up 812 00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:20,400 Speaker 1: on there. It's a place to post research for public 813 00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:23,680 Speaker 1: access and review before it gets published in a journal. 814 00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:26,280 Speaker 1: But I was unable to find evidence of this paper 815 00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:28,920 Speaker 1: appearing in an actual journal since then, So I'm not 816 00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:32,160 Speaker 1: sure what that means. Uh, maybe it doesn't mean anything, 817 00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:34,799 Speaker 1: or maybe it means something about this genome assembly didn't 818 00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:37,279 Speaker 1: hold up to scrutiny. I guess. I guess we'll have 819 00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:40,680 Speaker 1: to wait and see. But either way, the recent disappearance 820 00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:43,280 Speaker 1: of the MOI I think absolutely makes them a potential 821 00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:46,839 Speaker 1: candidate for de extinction, and this research helps move things 822 00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:49,439 Speaker 1: in that direction. Now. Of course, just because we could 823 00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:52,239 Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily mean that we should. I I don't know. 824 00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:54,279 Speaker 1: I don't know if I have a position on the 825 00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:57,759 Speaker 1: ethics of the extinction overall, but uh, obviously that's a 826 00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:00,359 Speaker 1: question that should be considered before we bring the things 827 00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:03,040 Speaker 1: back and just set them loose at Disney World. But 828 00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:05,520 Speaker 1: what an attraction that would be at Disney World right, 829 00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:07,200 Speaker 1: you go up to the mickey, you get your picture 830 00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:09,160 Speaker 1: taken with the mickey. Then you go up to the moa, 831 00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:11,200 Speaker 1: you try to get your picture taken. You see if 832 00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:15,200 Speaker 1: it cooperates. Yeah, danger zone for sure. But it's like 833 00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:18,560 Speaker 1: what if what if Jnald Duck could kick? What if 834 00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:22,400 Speaker 1: you the Mighty Glotto? Yeah? I mean there's so many 835 00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:27,239 Speaker 1: factors to consider and potentially reintroducing a creature like this, 836 00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:31,640 Speaker 1: you know, even if it's feasible to to bring them back, 837 00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:35,440 Speaker 1: because again, you're you're, to a certain extent doing what 838 00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:38,720 Speaker 1: all these different waves of interference have done in the past. 839 00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:41,479 Speaker 1: You're taking the environment and you're shaking it up again. 840 00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:44,120 Speaker 1: You're you're adding something to it, even if it's something 841 00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:48,040 Speaker 1: that used to be there in some form. Um. It's uh, 842 00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:50,680 Speaker 1: it's a difficult equation. And then I imagine also there's 843 00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:53,319 Speaker 1: the argument of is this the best use of our 844 00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:56,800 Speaker 1: our energy towards Should we instead be focusing on creatures 845 00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:59,040 Speaker 1: that are still with us, that can be um that 846 00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:01,880 Speaker 1: can be saved, or creatures that are saying extinct in 847 00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:04,640 Speaker 1: the wild but can still be reintroduced. I mean a 848 00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:07,200 Speaker 1: lot of those are you know, entirely separate battles, so 849 00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:11,399 Speaker 1: that you know that you know, certainly involved genetics. But um, yeah, 850 00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:14,360 Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's a complex situation. It's not just 851 00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:15,960 Speaker 1: a matter of oh, well we can bring it back, 852 00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:19,120 Speaker 1: let's do it. MOA's everywhere. I'm just saying, if we 853 00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:22,000 Speaker 1: were going to make a park with de extinctive animals, 854 00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:28,120 Speaker 1: maybe maybe extinct giant birds rather than dinosaurs. Since you 855 00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:31,279 Speaker 1: can't do the non Abean dinosaurs, why not terror birds 856 00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:34,279 Speaker 1: in MOA's. Without a doubt, I would. I would love 857 00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:38,000 Speaker 1: to see one of these creatures in real life. They 858 00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:42,120 Speaker 1: just sound amazing. It's you know, to see these these 859 00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:48,319 Speaker 1: two legged organisms handling about, uh munchtioned on twigs and branches. Uh. 860 00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:52,719 Speaker 1: It would be beautiful, provided you know there was there 861 00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:54,960 Speaker 1: was the space for it. Um So, I don't know. 862 00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:56,400 Speaker 1: It would be interesting to see what happens with this. 863 00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:59,560 Speaker 1: I know it's been it's been brought up before sometimes 864 00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:03,480 Speaker 1: I think by politicians even um and it's been kind 865 00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:06,320 Speaker 1: of controversial. There's a New Zealand politician who for some 866 00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:09,560 Speaker 1: reason has been very in favor of bringing back the moa. 867 00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:13,000 Speaker 1: I'm not sure why. By the way, I just looked 868 00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:16,359 Speaker 1: it up Unfortunately, the terror birds appeared to be just 869 00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:20,040 Speaker 1: out of range. Given the figures we were citing earlier, 870 00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:22,799 Speaker 1: I think they went extinct probably around one point eight 871 00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:27,120 Speaker 1: million years ago. Ah, well, there you go, the moas 872 00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:31,680 Speaker 1: it is then MOA's elephant birds. Anything else you know 873 00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:35,040 Speaker 1: within within reach that would have to those would have 874 00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:37,160 Speaker 1: to be the main attractions at our park. Give me 875 00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:41,279 Speaker 1: a host eagle baby, Oh yeah, for for sure. All right, 876 00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:43,879 Speaker 1: So there you have it are two part look at 877 00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:46,759 Speaker 1: the Moa, The Rise of the Moa, the Twilight of 878 00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:49,040 Speaker 1: the Moa. I found this to be just a really 879 00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:54,560 Speaker 1: engrossing UH project to work on because it ends up, 880 00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:57,239 Speaker 1: you know, dealing with so many things you're dealing with, 881 00:50:56,800 --> 00:51:01,799 Speaker 1: uh with biology, evolution of of organisms, you're dealing with 882 00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:06,239 Speaker 1: you know, the history of human migration, uh, colonial disruption, 883 00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:09,760 Speaker 1: and then the possibility of of bringing an extinct creature 884 00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:13,200 Speaker 1: back to life through genetic science. Uh. It really has 885 00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:17,920 Speaker 1: everything spared no expense. Yeah all right, So obviously we 886 00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:19,640 Speaker 1: love to hear from everyone out there. I also know 887 00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:22,080 Speaker 1: that we have you know, we have plenty of listeners 888 00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:25,520 Speaker 1: who live in New Zealand and who have traveled to 889 00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:28,200 Speaker 1: New Zealand or have some sort of roots or connection 890 00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:31,000 Speaker 1: to New Zealand. We would love to hear from you 891 00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:33,920 Speaker 1: about this topic. What are your thoughts about the moa 892 00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:37,160 Speaker 1: uh and what you have to add to our discussion here. 893 00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:40,680 Speaker 1: What are your thoughts about being called Kiwi's? Oh yeah, yeah, 894 00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:43,120 Speaker 1: I would. I would love to hear from actual uh 895 00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:45,920 Speaker 1: New Zealand residents on the matter. Would they rather be 896 00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:53,400 Speaker 1: called MOA's Mm hmm, Sorry, I mean both of the 897 00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:57,200 Speaker 1: names of birds, so I don't know. In the meantime, 898 00:51:57,200 --> 00:51:58,919 Speaker 1: if you want to check out other episodes of Stuff 899 00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:01,080 Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind, you know where to find them 900 00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:04,080 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts and wherever that happens to be. 901 00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:08,359 Speaker 1: Make sure you rate, review and subscribe. Huge thanks as 902 00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:11,880 Speaker 1: always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson, who's 903 00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:14,760 Speaker 1: doing a heroic job of helping us cope with recording 904 00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:18,279 Speaker 1: from home, so so big shout out to Seth. If 905 00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:20,240 Speaker 1: you'd like to get in touch with us with feedback 906 00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:22,920 Speaker 1: on this episode or any other, to suggest a topic 907 00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:25,040 Speaker 1: for the future, just to say hi, you can email 908 00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:36,040 Speaker 1: us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 909 00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:38,600 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of I Heart Radio. 910 00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:41,280 Speaker 1: For more podcasts. For my heart Radio, visit the iHeart 911 00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:44,080 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your 912 00:52:44,080 --> 00:53:02,080 Speaker 1: favorite shows. God bldiostats my pet Pee,