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Speaker 1: Hey hoorhey. Are you a hoarder or do you like

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Speaker 1: to throw things away?

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Speaker 4: We keep everything we have, every drawing, my kid's ever made.

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Speaker 1: Man not me. I value space more than stuff. I

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Speaker 1: love to throw things away.

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Speaker 4: Wow. What does your family get you for your birthday?

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Speaker 4: Then empty space.

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Speaker 1: Actually, my wife rents a dumpster and says, I can

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Speaker 1: throw out anything I want.

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Speaker 4: That's like a negative present.

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Speaker 1: Hey, space is precious, you know. You can't have too

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Speaker 1: much of it. You can't have too much nothing, said

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Speaker 1: nobody never. Nothing is better than nothing. This is the

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Speaker 1: best nothing I ever got.

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Speaker 4: I am Horham, a cartoonist and the creator of comics.

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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist, and I really

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Speaker 1: do love space.

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Speaker 4: And welcome to our podcast, Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe,

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Speaker 4: a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: In which we explore all the stuff in space, empty space,

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Speaker 1: not so empty space, space filled with really crazy bonker

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Speaker 1: stuff that's hard to understand, and sometimes even the very

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Speaker 1: nature of space. We talk about all of these things

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Speaker 1: in this podcast and we break them down, and our

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Speaker 1: goal is to deliver them to you in a way

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Speaker 1: that actually makes sense, so you go away thinking, huh,

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Speaker 1: I get it, or at least I get it as

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Speaker 1: much as scientists get it, which sometimes isn't that much.

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Speaker 4: And sometimes it feels like we're talking about a whole

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Speaker 4: lot of nothing, and sometimes we are literally talking about nothing.

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Speaker 1: And sometimes we're trying to figure out what is nothing?

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Speaker 1: Exactly right?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, deep questions. Now, Daniel, when you say you love space,

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Speaker 4: do you mean like you love you know, space travel,

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Speaker 4: like where the planets are, or did you just like

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Speaker 4: you know, having the idea of space in your life.

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Speaker 1: All of it. I love outer space, I love deep space,

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Speaker 1: I love near space. I also love having space in

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Speaker 1: my living room, Like it's not unusual for me to

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Speaker 1: toss out a piece of furniture and go, you know what,

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Speaker 1: the room is just better with nothing there.

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Speaker 4: You like everything about space? There's something negative about space

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Speaker 4: for you.

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Speaker 1: I'm pretty pro space.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, you would live in an empty box if you could.

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Speaker 1: Exactly. I'm like a cat that way.

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Speaker 4: Are you looking forward than to your children leaving the

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Speaker 4: house then, because that's just more space.

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Speaker 1: That is more space. I'm not looking forward to them leaving,

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Speaker 1: but if they do, I'm looking forward to throwing all

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Speaker 1: their stuff away.

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Speaker 4: Oh man, that's going to come back to haunt you.

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Speaker 4: They're like, why did you throw away my comic book

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Speaker 4: collection that's worth three million dollars? Now, yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: But this space is priceless, right.

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Speaker 4: Well, we like to talk about space in this podcast

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Speaker 4: and also about what it represents. What it means, because

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Speaker 4: it's kind of a topic that physicists don't have a

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Speaker 4: super clear idea about.

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Speaker 1: That's right, And it's one of these really fun questions

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Speaker 1: in physics because only re did we figure out that

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Speaker 1: it's a question that sort of has an answer. It's

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Speaker 1: a question that's worth asking, one of these questions that's

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Speaker 1: so basic that we just sort of assumed we knew

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Speaker 1: the answer. You know, space is space, it's the nothing,

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Speaker 1: it's the emptiness. And only recently have we realized, wow,

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Speaker 1: space could be much more than that, and it really

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Speaker 1: deserves our attention.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 4: Even more important is this sort of idea that maybe

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Speaker 4: we don't need space, like maybe it's just sort of

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Speaker 4: like an add on to the universe.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, is it at the foundation of reality or is

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Speaker 1: it just something that fills up something else? You know,

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Speaker 1: imagine what it would have been like to be a

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Speaker 1: person ten thousand years ago. You never would have experienced

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Speaker 1: reality without air, for example, So the concept of like

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Speaker 1: a vacuum, a place where there was no air would

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Speaker 1: have been totally alien to you. So now of course

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Speaker 1: we know that that's possible. It seems obvious that air

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Speaker 1: is not a fundamental property of the universe. But we're

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Speaker 1: at the next level and wondering, like, well, is space fundamental?

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Speaker 1: Could you take it apart? Do you really need it?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? In fact, most of the universe doesn't have any

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Speaker 4: air in it, right, most of the universe is pretty empty.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, from that point of view exactly, we were dealing

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Speaker 1: with a very unrepresentative example. And we do this all

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Speaker 1: the time in science. We assume that the things we

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Speaker 1: experience are universal and we can generalize from these examples

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Speaker 1: to the whole universe. We're doing this all the time,

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Speaker 1: left and right without even realizing it. So now we're

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Speaker 1: asking a similar question about space. You know, are our

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Speaker 1: assumptions about space valid? Can we break it apart? Do

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Speaker 1: we even need it? Is it possible for it to

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Speaker 1: have bubbled up from something else? Yeah, it's a spacey topic.

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Speaker 1: But space is pretty empty. I think we have a

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Speaker 1: whole podcast episode about that, right, like what's the average

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Speaker 1: density of the universe, or like how much stuff is

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Speaker 1: there really on a like cubic foot Yeah, we do

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Speaker 1: have a whole podcast about how empty space is, and

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Speaker 1: we take you on a journey from the top of

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Speaker 1: the atmosphere into the Solar System and then out into

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Speaker 1: interstellar space, and then finally into intergalactic space. And mostly

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Speaker 1: space is intergalactic space, right, Like there are these huge

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Speaker 1: streams of galactic clusters of galaxies swinging around each other,

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Speaker 1: but between them there are these vast bubbles and voids

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Speaker 1: that don't have galaxies in them. So most of the

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Speaker 1: universe sort of by volume, is this intergalactic space, which

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Speaker 1: is not totally empty. There's still stuff in there. That's

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Speaker 1: a little bit of dark matter, there's definitely dark energy.

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Speaker 1: But it's most of the universe and it's pretty empty,

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Speaker 1: but not down to zero.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and there's a lot of it space, I mean,

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Speaker 4: in the universe, there's a whole bunch of it. Like

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Speaker 4: if you were going at the speed of light, it

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Speaker 4: would still take you as far as we know right now,

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Speaker 4: you know, tens of billions of years just to go

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Speaker 4: from one side to the other. That's a lot of time.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, And remember the speed of light is like mind

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Speaker 1: bogglingly fast, right, It's incredibly fast, And yet these distances,

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Speaker 1: even inside our Solar System are incredible, Like it takes

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Speaker 1: minutes for light to get from here just to Mars,

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Speaker 1: which is our neighbor, and hours to get out to

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Speaker 1: the outer Solar System, and when we communicate with probes

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Speaker 1: and rovers and stuff on other planets, the reason you

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Speaker 1: can't drive them is because they are so far away.

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Speaker 1: You can't do real time driving because the lag is

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Speaker 1: too long. And that's just inside our Solar System. So

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Speaker 1: the distances to other galaxies millions of light years and

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Speaker 1: deeper into space billions of light years, they're hard for

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Speaker 1: us to get our mind around. So, yeah, space is

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Speaker 1: pretty spacious.

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Speaker 4: I guess I hadn't thought about it before. Like, even

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Speaker 4: if you're Superman or Superwoman and you're traveling, you're able

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Speaker 4: to fly to the speed of light, it would still

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Speaker 4: take you like a billion years just to you know,

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Speaker 4: go to the other galaxies out there in the universe.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's an interesting question. Does Superman have to

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Speaker 1: travel at the speed of light? Can he be superluminal?

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Speaker 6: Mmm?

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Speaker 1: I mean how far away is his home planet? Anyway?

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Speaker 4: I don't know you're the physicist. I just read the

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Speaker 4: comic books. I don't dissect them scientifically.

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Speaker 1: I'll go find out exactly where his home planet is

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Speaker 1: and figure out if he broke the law on the

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Speaker 1: way here, and if so, I'll issue him a physics ticket.

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Speaker 4: Well, he can just burn it up with his heat vision, Daniel.

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Speaker 4: And also, how are you going to arrest him? Good

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Speaker 4: luck with that, citizens arrest mister Superman. But yeah, there's

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Speaker 4: a lot of space out there. It's definitely not a

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Speaker 4: small part of the universe. But I guess the question

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Speaker 4: is is it a necessary part of the universe. So

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Speaker 4: today on the podcast, we'll be asking the question can

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Speaker 4: the universe exist without space?

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Speaker 1: Space?

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Speaker 4: Space?

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Speaker 1: Space space? That question is so profound it needs an echo.

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Speaker 4: It echoes through the vacuum of infinity.

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Speaker 1: Through the vacuum of our understanding of the universe.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, through the empty space in my head.

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Speaker 1: But it's a fun question and it sort of mirrors

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Speaker 1: the way I treat furniture. You know, I look around

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Speaker 1: my house and I ask myself, do we need that chair?

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Speaker 1: Nobody ever sits there, and we get rid of it.

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Speaker 1: We're like, ah, it's better off. And now we're cycling

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Speaker 1: through modern physics and we're like, hmm, do we really

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Speaker 1: need the whole concept of space? Like is it really

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Speaker 1: have to be included in the sort of fundamental list

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Speaker 1: of things you need to build a universe? Or is it,

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Speaker 1: like you know, I cubes or atoms or hurricanes, something

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Speaker 1: that you know comes from your more basic ingredients.

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Speaker 4: I would hate to be a furniture in your house.

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Speaker 4: I feel like I would live in constant fear.

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Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, you must constantly justify your existence in my

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Speaker 1: house or you're on the trashyt It's like huff Post reporters.

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Speaker 4: You know, hopefully that's just for your furniture, not your

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Speaker 4: family as well or pets.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, living creatures definitely belong to the family. Chairs not

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Speaker 1: so much so.

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Speaker 4: If you could have a bigger house, would you have

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Speaker 4: a bigger house?

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Speaker 1: No? No, I don't need a bigger house. In fact,

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Speaker 1: I had some friends who once moved to a bigger

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Speaker 1: house and I almost ruined their marriage because they ended

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Speaker 1: up shouting in each other from different rooms across the house.

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Speaker 1: And they did better when they had to, you know,

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Speaker 1: share a small apartment.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we talked about this, and I offered the better

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Speaker 4: solution of just getting an intercom system.

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Speaker 1: You are an engineer. Everybody's marriage, huh. I whant to

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Speaker 1: go to your couple's counseling.

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Speaker 4: There's a solution for everything in engineering.

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Speaker 1: Marital engineering. Wow, that's a better name for therapist.

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Speaker 4: But anyways, Yeah, it's a big question whether or not

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Speaker 4: we need in the universe. It seems pretty fundamental, you know, like,

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Speaker 4: how can you have a universe without space? Like, isn't

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Speaker 4: space the universe?

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Speaker 6: Yep?

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Speaker 1: But just because it's hard to imagine doesn't mean it's

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Speaker 1: not reality.

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Speaker 6: Right.

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Speaker 1: A lot of what reality is was difficult for us

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Speaker 1: to wrap our minds around. So when you do this

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Speaker 1: kind of exploration, you got to sort of be willing

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Speaker 1: to give up something you thought was fundamental, something you

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Speaker 1: assumed was inherent, and ask your question whether it can

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Speaker 1: come from something else?

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Speaker 4: All right, Well, as usual, we were wondering how many

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Speaker 4: people out there had thought about this spacious question whether

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Speaker 4: or not we need space. So Daniel went out there

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Speaker 4: into the wilds of the internet to ask people is

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Speaker 4: it possible to have a universe without space? Here's what

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Speaker 4: they have to say, Oh, that's a good question.

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Speaker 7: I don't think so Okay, No, why, Well, I don't know,

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Speaker 7: I don't know, I don't know why.

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Speaker 6: I just know.

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Speaker 7: I think space is only one of the dimensions. Right,

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Speaker 7: you could probably have a universe it's just time, maybe

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Speaker 7: not space.

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Speaker 8: I'm gonna say yes.

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Speaker 7: Well, my understanding is that, Yeah, I guess you can.

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Speaker 7: I mean, was the space when the Big Bang occurred

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Speaker 7: in the moments after that, or was it all dense

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Speaker 7: matter with zero space? But my understanding is that if

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Speaker 7: you have a different universe, it could operate off a

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Speaker 7: completely different set of physical laws. So I guess never

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Speaker 7: say never in that regard.

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Speaker 9: You can have a universe without space. Our situation with

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Speaker 9: matter having out competed anti matter, I think is actually

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Speaker 9: pretty unique there. I would I think there are a

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Speaker 9: little universe blips all over where universe pops into existence

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Speaker 9: and annihilates and no space is created.

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Speaker 8: I guess you can have universe without just dimensional space,

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Speaker 8: and you can have all the other dimensions possible, but

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Speaker 8: it will be crowded.

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Speaker 6: I guess it would mean what you mean by universe,

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Speaker 6: because before the Big Bang all the universe was there.

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Speaker 6: It was just compressed, and to my knowledge, there's no space.

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Speaker 6: So if you count that as the universe, then yeah.

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Speaker 4: All right, some mixed reactions here. Some people could live

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Speaker 4: without it, some people could really want it.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It basically wraps up the whole question of what space

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Speaker 1: is and where it comes from, and all these answers

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Speaker 1: I see echoes of general relativity and quantum mechanical perspectives

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Speaker 1: on this question. So good job listeners, and to those

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Speaker 1: of you who would like to participate in future rounds

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Speaker 1: of answer random questions for the podcast, please write to

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Speaker 1: us two questions at Dangielan Jorge dot com.

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Speaker 4: There's a lot of reference here and the answers to

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Speaker 4: the Big Bang too, Right, that's something I hadn't thought

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Speaker 4: about before. Was there space before the Big Bang? At

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Speaker 4: the Big Bang? Or was space created at some point

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Speaker 4: in the history of the universe?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, space and time?

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Speaker 4: Right? All right, Well, let's dig into it, Daniel. Let's

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Speaker 4: start with maybe the basic stuff, like what is space?

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Speaker 4: How do physicists think about what space is?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a great question, and we have sort

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Speaker 1: of two answers for what space is based on whether

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Speaker 1: you're thinking about it from the point of view of

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Speaker 1: like quantum mechanics, or whether you're thinking about it from

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Speaker 1: the point of view of general relativity. And remember that

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Speaker 1: these are the two pillars of thinking in modern physics.

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Speaker 1: Two great ways to describe parts of the experiments we've done.

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Speaker 1: Quantum mechanics describes basically everything that has to do with

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Speaker 1: little particles at small scales, and all the forces that

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Speaker 1: we're familiar with except for gravity and general relativity talks

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Speaker 1: about how space is curved and it's bent, and that's

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Speaker 1: really what gravity is. And so the answer to the

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Speaker 1: question what is space? So it depends on whose perspective

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Speaker 1: you want to take first?

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Speaker 4: What do you mean, how can something depend on your perspective?

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Speaker 4: Aren't you looking for like one answer?

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Speaker 1: We are absolutely look for one answer, but we don't

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Speaker 1: have one answer. We have two theories, quantum mechanics and

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Speaker 1: general relativity. They treat space very differently and we haven't

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Speaker 1: been able to unify them. So the short answer is

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Speaker 1: we don't know what space is because we don't have

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Speaker 1: a single coherent theory for the whole universe, and the

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Speaker 1: two theories we do have disagree about what space is.

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Speaker 4: All right, So what are the two theories about space

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Speaker 4: and is there enough space between them to tell the difference.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, let's start with quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics

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Speaker 1: is the theory that tells us how electromagnetism works, how

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Speaker 1: the weak force works, you know, how photons move, and

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Speaker 1: it tells us that space is fundamental. It assumes that

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Speaker 1: space exists and it adds stuff to it. So if

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Speaker 1: you're going to build a universe using at least our

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Speaker 1: current theory of quantum mechanics, then you start from space.

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Speaker 1: You say, let's assume there's a space, and then at

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Speaker 1: every point in that space, I'm going to say whether

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Speaker 1: or not there's a quantum field and how much energy

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Speaker 1: it has. But it's sort of like at the bedrock

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Speaker 1: of the whole theory, just like assuming that space and

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Speaker 1: time are things that you can put fields in them.

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Speaker 4: Right, because that's kind of a baked into the definition

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Speaker 4: of a field, right, Like you can't have a field

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Speaker 4: without space, like a field is by definition like how

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Speaker 4: things vary in a space.

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Speaker 1: That's right exactly, And we'll talk later about whether you

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Speaker 1: can generalize that to like abstract spaces rather than physical

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Speaker 1: spaces and what that means. But you're right. For the

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Speaker 1: physical fields that we're talking about, you know, like the

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Speaker 1: photon field, it's just a value all through space. But

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Speaker 1: as you say, space is fundamental to that. You need

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Speaker 1: to know, like there's a certain value to field here

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Speaker 1: and over there at a different location in space, it

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Speaker 1: has a different value. And for example, the Schrodinger equation

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Speaker 1: tells us how a wave function exists across space and

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Speaker 1: how that wave function evolves through time it spreads out

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Speaker 1: through space, for example. So it's pretty deeply baked in.

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Speaker 1: So quantum field theory is sort of the modern version

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Speaker 1: of it as we think about it doesn't really have

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Speaker 1: an answer to the question of what is space. It

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Speaker 1: just sort of like assumes it exists and starts from there.

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Speaker 1: It's like in the basic list of ingredients.

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Speaker 4: Would you say then that maybe quantum fields define space

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Speaker 4: or do you think space could exist without quantum fields.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's a great question. In our current theory, you

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Speaker 1: can't have space without quantum fields. Like quantum fields fill

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Speaker 1: the entire universe. There's no sense in which you could

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Speaker 1: have space without them. That's just sort of according to the theory.

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Speaker 1: But do they define space? I think they're deeply coupled

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Speaker 1: to it. Yeah, absolutely, so. I think it's definitely part

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Speaker 1: of the inherent nature of space in quantum field theory

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Speaker 1: that you have these fields that live on top of it.

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Speaker 1: But remember that quantum field theory can also have stuff

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Speaker 1: in it that doesn't sort of come in at the

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Speaker 1: very beginning, right, Like we can talk about the very

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Speaker 1: basic ingredients of the universe, space and quantum fields. But

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Speaker 1: we don't add to that things like you know the atom, right,

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Speaker 1: the atom is not a required element of the definition

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Speaker 1: of the universe. It comes from that other stuff. So

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Speaker 1: the atom, we think it exists, but it's not like fundamental.

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Speaker 1: And remember, the goal of physics, as you say, is

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Speaker 1: to come to one theory, one explanation, one most basic

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Speaker 1: list of ingredients and the rules for combining them that

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Speaker 1: then explains everything else. So we're constantly trying to throw

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Speaker 1: stuff out on purpose so we can get like the

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Speaker 1: minimal list of fundamental things that can then explain everything else.

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Speaker 1: As emergent, we want to explain ice cream and atoms

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Speaker 1: and hurricanes in terms of the simpler, more basic elements.

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Speaker 4: Do you guys rent the dumpster then too, so you

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Speaker 4: can throw out theories.

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Speaker 1: I definitely want to throw space out on the physics dumpster.

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Speaker 1: I would love to explain space in terms of something

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Speaker 1: more basic and fundamental, and say, man, remember when we

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Speaker 1: had space cramming in here and we had no space

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Speaker 1: because we had so much space.

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Speaker 4: But then if there's no space, then there's no space

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Speaker 4: in the dumpster either. Daniel, where would you throw it out?

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Speaker 1: Oh man, I'll get a bigger dumpster.

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Speaker 4: All right. So then that's quantum mechanics. But then general

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Speaker 4: relativity has a different view of space.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. General relativity tells us that space is not something

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Speaker 1: which is just like inherent and that you can assume.

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Speaker 1: General relativity tells us that space is really different. It's dynamical.

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Speaker 1: It's not like the backdrop for everything. Instead, it's in

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Speaker 1: this dance with matter. Right, when you have matter and

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Speaker 1: energy around, space bends and it curves and it can

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Speaker 1: do weird things like it can ripple, right, and it

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Speaker 1: can expand, and this is the things that we see,

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Speaker 1: like we see ripples in space. We know that this

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Speaker 1: general relativity picture is at least approximately correct. It might

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Speaker 1: not be the fundamental theory of the universe, but it's

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Speaker 1: really accurate. It predicts these gravitational waves and we see them.

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Speaker 1: It can accommodate at least the accelerated expansion of the

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Speaker 1: universe in terms of a cosmological constant. We don't understand

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Speaker 1: why that's there, what's happening, et cetera, but it can

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Speaker 1: be accommodated in general relativity. So it's very successful description

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Speaker 1: of how matter and space interact, and it suggests that

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Speaker 1: space is not fundamental, that it sort of sits at

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Speaker 1: the same level as matter and energy because the two

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Speaker 1: sort of have this feedback loop between each other.

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Speaker 4: It basically says that space is a thing, right, Like,

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Speaker 4: it's not static, it doesn't exist, it doesn't ignore matter,

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Speaker 4: you know, like it responds to matter, and you know,

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Speaker 4: it's not independent of matter exactly.

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Speaker 1: And you can do these weird things that we never

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Speaker 1: imagined that it could do, which means it might be

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Speaker 1: able to do other weird things we also had yet

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Speaker 1: had the imagination to do. Anytime we're limited by our imagination.

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Speaker 1: I'm always skeptical that we've thought of everything. I know

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Speaker 1: that theorists are very smart, and even our science fiction

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Speaker 1: authors are always pushing the boundaries of creativity when it

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Speaker 1: comes to like, you know, intellectual concepts. But there's always

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Speaker 1: the possibility that there's always something else out there we

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Speaker 1: just haven't thought of that could be happening in our universe.

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Speaker 1: So space could have really weird properties that we never imagined. Imagine,

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Speaker 1: for example, being a scientist that's a fish swimming through

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Speaker 1: water all the time and not realizing, you know, that

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Speaker 1: space could end, or that your water wasn't actually fundamental,

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Speaker 1: and they could do other weird things like boil and

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Speaker 1: turn into a gas. You know, space like that could

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Speaker 1: have other phases, other weird properties we just haven't observed yet,

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Speaker 1: and so we assume are impossible.

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Speaker 4: Because I guess, once you can get space to bend

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Speaker 4: or ripple or expand, then who knows what you can

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Speaker 4: make it do?

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Speaker 1: Who knows what you can make it do exactly? And

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Speaker 1: the solutions to general relativity are so complicated and difficult

440
00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:20,760
Speaker 1: that it's not possible to conceive of all the possible

441
00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:22,520
Speaker 1: configurations that are consistent with it.

442
00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:24,919
Speaker 4: Those are the two views of space. One says that

443
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:27,720
Speaker 4: it's something that you know, can't touch or that you

444
00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:29,800
Speaker 4: live on top of, and the other one says that

445
00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:31,640
Speaker 4: it's something that it's more of a thing, like it's

446
00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:35,200
Speaker 4: dynamic and you can manipulate it and it can change.

447
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,119
Speaker 4: So those are the two basic views about space, right,

448
00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:40,800
Speaker 4: But it doesn't sort of explain what space is. It's

449
00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:42,720
Speaker 4: just sort of like how you regard space.

450
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, but that's sort of what space is. You know,

451
00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:47,879
Speaker 1: space is how we treat it. Some people might say

452
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,520
Speaker 1: space is just like a mathematical construct in our minds.

453
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:54,760
Speaker 1: You know, that's not actually something that's physical. For example,

454
00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:59,080
Speaker 1: in quantum mechanics, we never deal with space itself directly, right,

455
00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:02,040
Speaker 1: All we ever do is deal with the fields in space.

456
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,560
Speaker 1: We never like interact with space itself, and so it's

457
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,199
Speaker 1: sort of like just an abstraction. It's just like a

458
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:11,960
Speaker 1: way of thinking about organizing these fields. Whereas in general relativity,

459
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:14,399
Speaker 1: like space is the thing. It's a thing that's keeping

460
00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:17,680
Speaker 1: us on the Earth. It explains gravity, which is pretty important.

461
00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:20,320
Speaker 1: So you know, how we represent them in our theories

462
00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:22,160
Speaker 1: goes a long way to telling you what we think

463
00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:22,680
Speaker 1: they are.

464
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,080
Speaker 4: All right, Well, I think that sets the space for

465
00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:29,040
Speaker 4: a deeper discussion about space and whether or not Daniel

466
00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:30,399
Speaker 4: can throw it in the dumpster or not.

467
00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:32,399
Speaker 1: Please please please please please please please.

468
00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:36,080
Speaker 4: Oh I would be so offended if I was space

469
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:41,000
Speaker 4: right now. I would limit your space, Daniel. But let's

470
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,199
Speaker 4: get into that question and also whether or not we

471
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,600
Speaker 4: will ever be able to know what the answer is.

472
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:48,399
Speaker 4: But first, let's take a quick break.

473
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,040
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540
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Speaker 4: All Right, we're talking about space and whether or not

541
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,200
Speaker 4: weekend just toss it out, Daniel, I feel like that's

542
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 4: so unappreciative. How can you just throw the thing out

543
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,480
Speaker 4: that you you grew up in.

544
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 1: Well, you know, let's make a distinction here. We are,

545
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,920
Speaker 1: of course searching to explain space, to figure out whether

546
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 1: it's the basic ingredient of the universe or whether it

547
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,159
Speaker 1: emerges from something else. But that's not to say that

548
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 1: things that emerge are uninteresting or unimportant. Right, Like, the

549
00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 1: entire field of biology is emergent in this sense that

550
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,680
Speaker 1: you could, in principle calculate it all from fundamental particles.

551
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 1: But that's not like a smart way to do biology.

552
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,960
Speaker 1: Nobody would and nobody does do biology from the particle perspective.

553
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 1: I just want to make sure people don't think that

554
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 1: we're being negative about emergent phenomena. They're fascinating, they're amazing,

555
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,399
Speaker 1: they're incredible. We are emergent phenomena. It's just, you know,

556
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 1: part of this question of getting down, drilling down to

557
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,919
Speaker 1: the deepest nature of reality is to ask what's fundamental

558
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 1: and what's emergent, not necessarily to judge them.

559
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:29,159
Speaker 4: You just want to add your bets and not offend

560
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:31,159
Speaker 4: your spouse or as a biologist.

561
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 1: I have the deepest of respects for my spouse and

562
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 1: also for biology.

563
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:39,120
Speaker 4: Just not your furniture. Just not my furniture, absolutely all right.

564
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:41,680
Speaker 4: So there are two perspectives about space. It seems like

565
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 4: quantum mechanics doesn't say anything about space other than it's

566
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 4: there and you can mess with it. And general relativity

567
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 4: says that it's something that you can sort of mess

568
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:52,920
Speaker 4: with and change and bend. And I guess the question

569
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 4: is are those two things incompatible or is there sort

570
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 4: of a fundamental conflict about them. Couldn't you have quantum

571
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 4: mechanics sit on top of general relativity?

572
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, And people are working on exactly that, trying

573
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:09,879
Speaker 1: to unify general relativity and quantum mechanics in several different ways,

574
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,680
Speaker 1: and in doing so, they're giving us hints about answers

575
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 1: to this question about whether space is fundamental or not.

576
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 1: Like when they put these two things together, they basically

577
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 1: have to make a decision like, well, do we have

578
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 1: space as the list of fundamental ingredients in our new

579
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 1: theory of quantum gravity or not. And there's a couple

580
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 1: different approaches. One is sort of like make gravity a

581
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 1: quantum theory, thinking about it as like just another quantum

582
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 1: force that exchanges particles gravitons in order to make gravity happen,

583
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 1: and sort of making quantum mechanics primary. And the other

584
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 1: is to try to quantize gravity itself, you know, either

585
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 1: make the universe into little pixels or take the gravitational

586
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 1: field and make it discrete, And so that would make

587
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 1: general relativity sort of at the primary foundational level of

588
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 1: these new theories of quantum gravity, and which direction you

589
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 1: go sort of dictates the face of the idea of

590
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 1: space and whether it's fundamental or emergent.

591
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 4: I guess maybe one difference is that like in general relativity,

592
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 4: if you have a speck of dust, it's technically bending

593
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 4: the space around it. But in quantum mechanics, if you

594
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 4: have like a proton or an electron, it's not really

595
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 4: bending space around it. Right.

596
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 1: In quantum mechanics, we have no description of the curvature

597
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 1: of space that works, right, So yeah, absolutely, we don't

598
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,959
Speaker 1: have a quantum mechanical description of gravity or the bending

599
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 1: of space, so we can't describe how space is bent

600
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 1: around of dust particle. We know that it is though, right,

601
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 1: we think that that's true. One of the difficulties is

602
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 1: that we can't test these things very well because particles

603
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 1: have very very small amounts of gravity. Remember, gravity is

604
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 1: so much weaker than all the other forces, like ten

605
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 1: to the thirty times weaker. So we can't really test

606
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 1: these things because all these other forces dominate. Two protons,

607
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 1: for example, coming together the Large Hadron Collider feel almost

608
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 1: no gravity in comparison to the strong and the weak

609
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 1: and the electromagnetic forces. So it's very hard to do

610
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 1: an ext experiment at the particle level that tests gravity.

611
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 4: I guess maybe then to get back to a question,

612
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 4: then what do these two theories say about the idea

613
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,959
Speaker 4: of having no space? Like could you have no space

614
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 4: in quantum mechanics or general relativity, or is that impossible

615
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 4: according to the theories.

616
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 1: So there are now really fun ideas about how space

617
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 1: might not be fundamental, how you could have a universe

618
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 1: without space in quantum mechanics. And I think these ideas

619
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 1: are really cool because they make us think about quantum

620
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 1: mechanics sort of at a more basic level. You know,

621
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 1: we think about the wave function. For example. Wave function

622
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 1: is like this basic element of quantum mechanics. It tells

623
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 1: you what's going to happen to a particle or for example,

624
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 1: where a particle might be. If you have a question

625
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 1: about the outcome of your experiment, the wave function tells

626
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 1: you this outcome is a certain probability, and that outcome

627
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 1: has another probability. And typically we think about the wave

628
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 1: function as distributed across space, like is the electron here

629
00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 1: or is the electron there, But in principle can be

630
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 1: distributed across abstract states also, you know, like the electron

631
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 1: spin or the outcome of your experiment, or all sorts

632
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 1: of other kinds of things. And so it's not hard

633
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 1: for us to sort of augment the current concept of

634
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 1: space with these like abstract spaces. We call them Hilbert

635
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 1: spaces in which the wave function lives, and it might

636
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 1: be that those Hilbert spaces are the actual primary thing

637
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 1: that we can sort of let go of these concepts

638
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 1: of position and base the whole existence of the universe

639
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 1: just on those sort of abstract spaces than the ones

640
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 1: that are not physical, that don't represent actual locations, that

641
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 1: are not anywhere.

642
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 4: I think what you're saying is that, like maybe space,

643
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 4: according to the theory, is not like a physical thing

644
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 4: or physical space, but it's rather just sort of like

645
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 4: a mathematical concept or set of relationships.

646
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 1: Is that what you mean. Yeah, we know that it's

647
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 1: a set of relationships. As we said earlier, in quantum mechanics,

648
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 1: we never actually interact with space. All we do is

649
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 1: we see sort of the propagation of information through fields

650
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 1: as that information moves through space. But really that information

651
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 1: is moving through the field, and so you can think

652
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 1: about it as in terms of like pieces of space

653
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 1: that are sort of woven together. So it's like the

654
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 1: relationships between different elements of the field, and the space

655
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 1: itself is really just like the relationship between those elements.

656
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 1: So this one is far away from that one, or

657
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 1: this one is close to that one, So you don't

658
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 1: have to have those bits of the field like hanging

659
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 1: in an absolute actually existing space. It might just be

660
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 1: that they have those relationships in another way and woven

661
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 1: together that gives the same effect as if they were

662
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 1: actually in a space.

663
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 4: I wonder if it's sort of like the concept of money.

664
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 4: You know, like something is worth more or has a

665
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 4: bigger price tag on it just because it doesn't mean

666
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 4: that it has more energy to it or more matter

667
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 4: to it, or you know, sits closer to you, or

668
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 4: you can do more things with it. It's just so

669
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 4: happens that this thing has a label with a big

670
00:32:57,520 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 4: price on it and that one has a label with

671
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 4: a lower Does that kind of what you mean? Like,

672
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 4: maybe space is really just like the economy of the.

673
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And you can also think about it in

674
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 1: terms of like your networks. Think about your relationships with

675
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 1: your family. Who are you close to We even use

676
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 1: that word close, right, Even if you're physically far away

677
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 1: from somebody else, you have a network of people that

678
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 1: you interact with who know you very well, and then

679
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 1: people who are distant, and then people who are basically

680
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 1: super impossibly far away. Well, it might be that that's

681
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 1: sort of like the fundamental definition of who you are

682
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 1: and what your space is, rather than like where you

683
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 1: actually are sitting in your bedroom or in Los Angeles

684
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 1: or in Germany or wherever.

685
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 4: Maybe space is just an emotional space, you know what

686
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 4: I mean, Like space is really just the emotional currency

687
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 4: of your relationships.

688
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, and these are just analogies we're using to try

689
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 1: to get your mind away from this primacy of space

690
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 1: that we've been assuming and thinking about the universe as

691
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 1: built out of things that don't hang in space but

692
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 1: still have relationships with each other. And then those real

693
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 1: relationships are what space emerges from. And we can actually

694
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 1: do this not just by doing analogies to social media,

695
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,280
Speaker 1: but actually mathematically, and people have taken the wave function

696
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 1: of the universe for example, think about like what is

697
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,799
Speaker 1: a quantum mechanical description of the whole universe? Can you

698
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,239
Speaker 1: describe everything in the universe and you don't have to

699
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,440
Speaker 1: necessarily put them in a location, you know, just say

700
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 1: there's a probability for this particle and probably for that particle,

701
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 1: and then link them together and say, well, this one

702
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,920
Speaker 1: is entangled with that one. This concept of quantum entanglement

703
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:32,839
Speaker 1: of particles having like their fates connected to each other

704
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 1: because they have a common past. This entanglement might provide

705
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 1: that weave. It might provide the connection between like the

706
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 1: bits of the universe that when you weave them together,

707
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 1: some things are more entangled than others, and so they

708
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:48,880
Speaker 1: are seen closer together, and other things are less entangled

709
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 1: and so they seem more distant. It might be that

710
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 1: this quantum entanglement are those same relationships that connect these

711
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:57,319
Speaker 1: bits of the wave function that make it seem as

712
00:34:57,400 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 1: if it is hanging in some space.

713
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 4: And this sort of set of relationships or currency or valuations,

714
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 4: that's what you call these Hilbert spaces or is that different?

715
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,320
Speaker 1: The Hilbert space is the set of possible wave functions

716
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 1: that you can have, and then the relationships between the

717
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:15,279
Speaker 1: different wave functions that are disconnected, those are the entanglements

718
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 1: those come together to make this sort of like grand

719
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 1: weave that we call space. And if this is true,

720
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:23,360
Speaker 1: it doesn't mean that space is not like real. It

721
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 1: just means that it comes from something else. You know,

722
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:28,920
Speaker 1: that it bubbles up from something more primary, just like

723
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:32,360
Speaker 1: air is real, even if it's not fundamental to the universe.

724
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 1: You can still breathe it. It's still very nice on

725
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:37,240
Speaker 1: a nice, fresh, windy day in Los Angeles.

726
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 4: Come on, never happens. But I guess maybe a question

727
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 4: is what's the difference? You know, like the word Hilbert

728
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 4: space still has the word space in it, So like

729
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 4: what would be the difference between a Hilbert space or

730
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 4: these abstract connection space and maybe a more regular definition

731
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 4: of space.

732
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 1: Well, our four dimensional space has certain properties, you know,

733
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 1: information and transforms through it in a certain way. It

734
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 1: follows the speed of light. There are four dimensions, including time.

735
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 1: An abstract Hilbert space is much broader and more general,

736
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 1: like it can be infinite dimensional, it can have complex values,

737
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,840
Speaker 1: you know, imaginary numbers, all sorts of things. So this

738
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:18,360
Speaker 1: was sort of like a subset of all the possible

739
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:21,719
Speaker 1: Hilbert spaces. It's like, it turns out that the relationship

740
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:24,799
Speaker 1: between all these quantum wave functions can be described in

741
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 1: this sort of simpler subspace, this four dimensional subspace, in

742
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:33,319
Speaker 1: which all that information can be mapped onto the whole hilobines,

743
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,320
Speaker 1: the whole hillobines. But it also means other interesting things.

744
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,880
Speaker 1: If this is true, it means that, for example, you

745
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 1: could have different spaces inside this, like larger Hilbert space.

746
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:45,440
Speaker 1: You could have like our chunk of space which is

747
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 1: all woven together, and you could have another one somewhere

748
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,720
Speaker 1: else which also emerged and is totally disconnected from ours,

749
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 1: and you.

750
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 4: Could have maybe parts of it without these relationships, right,

751
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 4: Like you could have a whole bunch of people with

752
00:36:57,640 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 4: no friends on Facebook.

753
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 1: Exactly, or even parts of the world where there is

754
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 1: no Facebook. What hard to imagine, right, but it might

755
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:09,160
Speaker 1: be true. And so if this picture is accurate, then

756
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:12,360
Speaker 1: the answer is absolutely you can have the universe without space.

757
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:14,839
Speaker 1: It's not necessarily clear that you need space to have

758
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 1: the universe, and you can have parts of the universe

759
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:20,319
Speaker 1: with space, parts of the universe without space, and other

760
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 1: parts of the universe you know, that have different kinds

761
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:24,879
Speaker 1: of spaces. And you might be thinking, hold on, he's

762
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 1: saying the word parts. What does he mean if there's

763
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 1: no space, what parts is he talking about? And again,

764
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 1: you know, these parts don't necessarily have like a spatial relationship.

765
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 1: You can't say this one is here and that one

766
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 1: is there in the sense of like where is your family.

767
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 1: You know, you guys might be physically somewhere, but the

768
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:45,840
Speaker 1: actual relationships between you, those connections that tie you together,

769
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 1: Like where is that It isn't really anywhere, it's just

770
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:50,280
Speaker 1: sort of in your emotional space.

771
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:52,239
Speaker 4: Yes, if you can't find your family, that's a whole

772
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:55,360
Speaker 4: different problem there, and a whole different type of podcasts.

773
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 4: There's a whole genre for this.

774
00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 1: But that's sort of the quantum mechanical view. If you

775
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 1: say quant mechanics is primary and the wave function for

776
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:05,239
Speaker 1: the universe is the most basic thing, then can you

777
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 1: build up universe without space? Is space necessary? That's the

778
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 1: quantum mechanical.

779
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,279
Speaker 4: Path, right, And it sounds like the answer is sort

780
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:13,719
Speaker 4: of yes, Like if quantum mechanics is all there is,

781
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:16,879
Speaker 4: then it might be possible to see how you could

782
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:18,359
Speaker 4: not have space. Mm hmm.

783
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 1: Absolutely. And there's some really fun recent ideas things called

784
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 1: like condensate cosmology, where space condenses in these like steamlike

785
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:30,400
Speaker 1: droplets from these weird fun spin networks that are more fundamental.

786
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 1: But we're going to do a whole podcast about that

787
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:33,200
Speaker 1: sometime in the future.

788
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:35,720
Speaker 4: Well all right, well then, and now what does general

789
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 4: relativity say about not having any space? Is that possible?

790
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 4: According to that view.

791
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:44,400
Speaker 1: General relativity really has no problem with space not existing.

792
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 1: Because in our general relativistic understanding of the universe, think

793
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:51,840
Speaker 1: about what happens in the history, Right, we have the

794
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:54,839
Speaker 1: current universe. We look back in time and we see

795
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 1: the universe getting more and more compact, and we propagate

796
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 1: back and further and further and further, and it approaches

797
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:05,240
Speaker 1: this special moment, this singularity, this time before which space

798
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:08,760
Speaker 1: does not exist. And you know, there are various ideas

799
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:10,759
Speaker 1: for how to tackle that and what that means, and

800
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:12,400
Speaker 1: if it's a breakdown of the theory and if it

801
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 1: needs to be replaced by something else. But in our

802
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:19,960
Speaker 1: current albeit imperfect, non quantum mechanical general relativity, there is

803
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 1: this concept that there is no space before the Big.

804
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:27,759
Speaker 4: Bang, there's no space or it was just super compressed.

805
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 1: It's super compressed in the very first moments of the universe.

806
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:34,919
Speaker 1: But before that, before the singularity itself, right, this moment

807
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 1: of infinite density, that space did not exist. That it

808
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:41,439
Speaker 1: doesn't make sense to ask where is something or when

809
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:44,439
Speaker 1: is something because the whole notion of space and time

810
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 1: came into existence then, like there is no space and

811
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:50,680
Speaker 1: time before then. And this is not something that's very

812
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 1: easy to think about because we don't think about space

813
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 1: and definitely not time beginning right, But a whole other

814
00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 1: podcast episode about whether you need time and if time

815
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:02,239
Speaker 1: is in a mergent phenomena, it's a whole even more

816
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 1: difficult question to grapple with because you have to think about, like,

817
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 1: could there be a time before which there was no time?

818
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:11,040
Speaker 1: But putting that aside for the time being, at least,

819
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:14,720
Speaker 1: it's hard still to think about a universe existing without space.

820
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:16,360
Speaker 1: But if you can still have time, right, if you

821
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 1: say time exists, but maybe space is not fundamental, it

822
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:22,240
Speaker 1: might make sense to you to think about, like space

823
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 1: itself is this weird thing we talked about this we

824
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 1: do that does stuff and it can bubble and it

825
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:30,840
Speaker 1: can expand it's being created right now. If it's being created,

826
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 1: then you know, maybe there was a moment before it

827
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:34,360
Speaker 1: was created.

828
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 4: Or you know, you can think about what is there

829
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:40,360
Speaker 4: when it's not being created? Right, there's there's no space

830
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:42,360
Speaker 4: if there's no space being created.

831
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 1: Exactly, And it might be that you can have a

832
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 1: universe before space is created. It might be that time

833
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:50,440
Speaker 1: existed before the Big Bang, but just not space, and

834
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:55,320
Speaker 1: there's some like conditions required for space to be created.

835
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:57,400
Speaker 1: For it to expand. Like you might think it's a

836
00:40:57,440 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 1: weird concept for space to be created, but remember that

837
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 1: it's happening right now. You know, the expansion of the

838
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:06,880
Speaker 1: universe is not the motion of stuff through the universe.

839
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 1: It's the creation of new space between us and other galaxies,

840
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 1: between you and your couch, between everything and everything else.

841
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:16,920
Speaker 1: So it's happening right now. And it's just that we

842
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 1: have only recently realized that space is this bizarre fabric

843
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:25,320
Speaker 1: that can do these things like be created spontaneously everywhere simultaneously,

844
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:27,799
Speaker 1: that we've come to ask these questions. So we just

845
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:30,680
Speaker 1: really don't have a notion an understanding of what space

846
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 1: is even in general relativity, but it's certainly as possible

847
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 1: that it can be created. And so yeah, you could

848
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:38,839
Speaker 1: imagine there being a pre Big Bang moment when there

849
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 1: was a universe but just no space.

850
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 4: All right. Well, it sounds like both theories are pretty

851
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:46,839
Speaker 4: cool with the idea of not having space. They can

852
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:48,759
Speaker 4: both take it or leave it.

853
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:53,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, variations of quantum mechanics can accommodate space not

854
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,399
Speaker 1: being fundamental, even though our current quantum field theory sort

855
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,239
Speaker 1: of assumes that it's there. You can build these extensions

856
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 1: that sort of make it possible for space to be emergent,

857
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 1: for it to bubble up, rather than just being an

858
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:06,440
Speaker 1: assumed property of the universe.

859
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:08,759
Speaker 4: All right, So space, take it or leave it?

860
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 1: Leave it?

861
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:12,440
Speaker 4: All right, let's get into how we would ever know

862
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 4: if space is or not disposable or dispensable. But speaking

863
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 4: of time, it's time to take another quick break.

864
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:26,400
Speaker 1: When you pop a piece of cheese into your mouth,

865
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 1: or enjoy a rich spoonful of Greek yogurt, you're probably

866
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:33,720
Speaker 1: not thinking about the environmental impact of each and every bite.

867
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:36,360
Speaker 1: But the people in the dairy industry are. US Dairy

868
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 1: has set themselves some ambitious sustainability goals, including being greenhouse

869
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:43,319
Speaker 1: gas neutral by twenty to fifty. That's why they're working

870
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:45,720
Speaker 1: hard every day to find new ways to reduce waste,

871
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:49,959
Speaker 1: conserve natural resources, and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. Take water,

872
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 1: for example, most dairy farms reuse water up to four times.

873
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 1: The same water cools the milk, cleans equipment, washes the barn,

874
00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:00,160
Speaker 1: and irrigates the crops. How is US dairy tackling green

875
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Speaker 4: All right, Daniel, It sounds like physicists could take space

913
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:07,239
Speaker 4: or leave it. It sounds like both theories about the

914
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 4: universe would be okay. They wouldn't break down if you

915
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:13,360
Speaker 4: suddenly got rid of space. Yeah.

916
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 1: And I think if you took a survey of physicists

917
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:18,239
Speaker 1: right now and you ask them if space was fundamental

918
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:21,600
Speaker 1: or emergent, if it came from something else more fundamental,

919
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:24,800
Speaker 1: I bet you get like ninety percent saying that it's emergent,

920
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:27,839
Speaker 1: that it's not fundamental, that it comes up from something else,

921
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:30,160
Speaker 1: which means that you could have a universe without it,

922
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:32,919
Speaker 1: or portions of the universe without it. I think that's

923
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:34,400
Speaker 1: the current mainstream thinking.

924
00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:37,120
Speaker 4: And as we all know, the universe works democratically, so

925
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:39,880
Speaker 4: whatever the majority says must be true.

926
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 1: No, we're definitely capable of being misled and having the

927
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:45,360
Speaker 1: wrong idea. But I think it's sort of exciting that

928
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:47,280
Speaker 1: it's widespread. It means that lots of people are working

929
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:50,200
Speaker 1: on it. People are developing new ways of thinking about

930
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:53,439
Speaker 1: these really really basic questions, and people out there also

931
00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:55,799
Speaker 1: should be excited. It means that, like we're just at

932
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:59,759
Speaker 1: the beginning of asking questions about the universe and tackling them.

933
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 1: If you are excited about questions like you know, what

934
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:04,879
Speaker 1: is the universe and where did they come from? And

935
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 1: what's it really made out of, remember that there are

936
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:11,320
Speaker 1: huge tracts of questions that are just really being explored

937
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:13,799
Speaker 1: by physicists now, and so there's plenty of room to

938
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:18,200
Speaker 1: make like really fundamental, Einstein level discoveries about the nature

939
00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:18,840
Speaker 1: of the universe.

940
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:19,359
Speaker 6: Right.

941
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 4: I think what you're saying is that there's an electoral

942
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:24,319
Speaker 4: college in the universe, and who knows what the rules

943
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 4: are for that. That's right.

944
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:30,760
Speaker 1: Fortunately, physics is easier to calculate than the electoral college.

945
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:33,279
Speaker 4: All right, I guess maybe now the big question is

946
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:37,000
Speaker 4: how would we know or not whether space is fundamental,

947
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:39,719
Speaker 4: or whether or not it's like an add on or

948
00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:43,560
Speaker 4: like an optional preference in the universe you could live in.

949
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:45,840
Speaker 4: Is there a way for us to test it because

950
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:48,799
Speaker 4: we live in this space that we're trying to test.

951
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:51,800
Speaker 4: Is it possible to, I don't know, create an experiment

952
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:52,960
Speaker 4: where you have no space?

953
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's really two steps to that. First is we

954
00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:58,960
Speaker 1: got to make more theoretical progress, and then we got

955
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 1: to do some experiments. So on the theoretical side, what

956
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:05,920
Speaker 1: we really need is a unification of quantum mechanics and

957
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:09,040
Speaker 1: general relativity. We need a theory of quantum gravity that

958
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:12,600
Speaker 1: tells us how the universe works, so we can think about,

959
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 1: like what is space and this theory if it all

960
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:18,319
Speaker 1: hangs together and like does everything it has to do,

961
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:21,520
Speaker 1: meaning it can describe everything that gravity can do, and

962
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:24,799
Speaker 1: they can describe all the tiny fundamental particles and it

963
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:27,719
Speaker 1: brings those together in a way that makes sense that

964
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:29,719
Speaker 1: you know, they don't disagree with each other like the

965
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:33,000
Speaker 1: current quantum mechanics and general relativity do. Then we can

966
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:35,279
Speaker 1: ask questions of that theory. So first we've got to

967
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:38,279
Speaker 1: make progress theoretically. We need like an actual theory that

968
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:40,759
Speaker 1: totally works. Before the break, we talked about a few

969
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:44,240
Speaker 1: possibilities like directions people are going These are like half

970
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:47,359
Speaker 1: formed ideas. People are like building scaffolding. You can see

971
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:50,120
Speaker 1: the outlines of a structure. People are trying to make work.

972
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:53,880
Speaker 1: But nobody has an actual functioning theory of quantum gravity

973
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:56,560
Speaker 1: where we can ask these kinds of questions and get answers.

974
00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:58,839
Speaker 4: I guess you need some sort of theory first, right,

975
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 4: Like you can't just take out space and measure it.

976
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:03,560
Speaker 4: Not measured are measured not space?

977
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:06,239
Speaker 1: Well, we have done a lot of really cool experiments

978
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:10,640
Speaker 1: about space, right, Like seeing gravitational waves is incredible. It

979
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:13,960
Speaker 1: tells us that space really is sort of fungible and dynamic,

980
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 1: and measuring the expansion of the universe. That's also kind

981
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:19,960
Speaker 1: of an experiment that tells us what's going on with space.

982
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:22,799
Speaker 1: And a lot of times experiment informs us. Remember that

983
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:25,680
Speaker 1: we didn't expect the universe to be expanding in an

984
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:29,240
Speaker 1: accelerating manner until we saw it, and it totally shocked

985
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:32,279
Speaker 1: us and surprised us. So sometimes experiments can inform us.

986
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:35,480
Speaker 1: I think in this case, we really need theory to

987
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:38,280
Speaker 1: tell us, like how we can do experiments to answer

988
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 1: this question, because currently the only experiments I can think

989
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:43,759
Speaker 1: of are ones that are like at the center of

990
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:47,520
Speaker 1: a black hole or require super colliders the size of

991
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:48,399
Speaker 1: a solar.

992
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:50,520
Speaker 4: System, not things we can get done tomorrow.

993
00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:54,799
Speaker 1: No, exactly, because for example, general relativity and quantum mechanics

994
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:57,320
Speaker 1: they disagree about what's at the center of a black hole.

995
00:48:57,560 --> 00:49:00,600
Speaker 1: You know, general relativity says, oh, there's a singular there,

996
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:03,680
Speaker 1: but quantum mechanics says, you can't have a singularity because

997
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:06,920
Speaker 1: that's too much information isolated in one little spot and

998
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:10,040
Speaker 1: it violates the Heisenberg and certainty principle. And so if

999
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:12,040
Speaker 1: you could see what was going on inside the black hole,

1000
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:14,120
Speaker 1: you could get great clues as to how to build

1001
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:16,840
Speaker 1: your theory of quantum gravity. Or if you could somehow

1002
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:21,400
Speaker 1: do tests of particles feeling gravitational forces by building a

1003
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:25,040
Speaker 1: super huge collider and smashing those particles together at crazy

1004
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:28,960
Speaker 1: high energies enough energy where like gravity is as powerful

1005
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 1: as the other forces, then maybe you could get a

1006
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:33,400
Speaker 1: clue as to how to build your theory of quantum gravity.

1007
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:36,319
Speaker 1: But we can't do either of those experiments today, and

1008
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:38,839
Speaker 1: so I think what we need is some inside from

1009
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:41,239
Speaker 1: the theory to tell us, well, look, here's how the

1010
00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:43,759
Speaker 1: universe is put together. Here's our theory of what space is.

1011
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:46,960
Speaker 1: And this theory gives us a clue about how to

1012
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:49,560
Speaker 1: look for evidence that the theory is correct. You know,

1013
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:52,600
Speaker 1: there's some like wrinkle, some experiment we can predict the

1014
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:55,120
Speaker 1: outcome of that can tell you whether or not this

1015
00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:55,600
Speaker 1: is right.

1016
00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:57,520
Speaker 4: It's like if only you can break the loss of

1017
00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:02,400
Speaker 4: physics so that you could figure out the lass exactly.

1018
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:04,640
Speaker 1: And there's maybe one more hint of something that we

1019
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:07,279
Speaker 1: can do, which is that we can look for more

1020
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:09,680
Speaker 1: evidence of this creation of space.

1021
00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 4: We can look for.

1022
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:14,200
Speaker 1: Evidence of those first moments just after the Big Bang

1023
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:18,200
Speaker 1: and try to find some gravitational radiation from the Big

1024
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:19,040
Speaker 1: Bang itself.

1025
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:21,040
Speaker 4: But what do you mean, like a shockwave, or like

1026
00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:23,520
Speaker 4: actual radiation, or like gravitons.

1027
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:26,120
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly all of those things. You know that we

1028
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:30,239
Speaker 1: have microwave background radiation from about four hundred thousand years

1029
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 1: after the Big Bang, when this hot plasma cooled and

1030
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:36,359
Speaker 1: became transparent. We see those photons, and people often say

1031
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:39,720
Speaker 1: that that radiation is like from the Big Bang itself.

1032
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:42,320
Speaker 1: It's not quite as from you know, four hundred thousand

1033
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:45,960
Speaker 1: years after the Big Bang, when the universe became transparent

1034
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:48,839
Speaker 1: and that light is now still propagating around. We'd love

1035
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 1: to see earlier. We'd love to look further back to

1036
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 1: the actual creation of the universe, whatever happened there. And

1037
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:57,000
Speaker 1: so it might be possible to do that by looking

1038
00:50:57,000 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 1: for gravitational waves that were created in the very first

1039
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:04,640
Speaker 1: moments when the universe was expanding so rapidly. We think

1040
00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:07,600
Speaker 1: that gravitational waves were made. So there's another kind of

1041
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:12,400
Speaker 1: radiation called the cosmic gravitational background that might have clues

1042
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:14,720
Speaker 1: as to what the nature of space is and whether

1043
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:17,239
Speaker 1: it was created in those first moments. If we could

1044
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:17,920
Speaker 1: see it like.

1045
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:20,440
Speaker 4: The echoes of the creation of space.

1046
00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, and so we have theories about what that

1047
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:26,480
Speaker 1: might look like under various configurations. And you might remember

1048
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:29,799
Speaker 1: several years ago people didn't experiment where they thought they

1049
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:32,440
Speaker 1: measured those waves. It was called BICEP two. But then

1050
00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:34,120
Speaker 1: it turns out that they were mistaken and they were

1051
00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:37,319
Speaker 1: actually just measuring dust between galaxies. So that was disappointing,

1052
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:40,080
Speaker 1: but it might still be possible with a better round

1053
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:42,920
Speaker 1: of experiments, more precision and control of that dust, to

1054
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:45,919
Speaker 1: see the actual radiation from the early universe and get

1055
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:48,680
Speaker 1: a glimmer as to whether space was created or whether

1056
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:49,959
Speaker 1: it had always been there.

1057
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:53,319
Speaker 4: And there's another possibility right as to whether or not

1058
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:56,920
Speaker 4: we can confirm this existence or the tendency of space,

1059
00:51:57,360 --> 00:51:59,520
Speaker 4: and that is that maybe in the future there might

1060
00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:00,520
Speaker 4: not be any.

1061
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:02,560
Speaker 1: Space, right, yeah, exactly.

1062
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:05,399
Speaker 4: Are we gonna run out of space or are we

1063
00:52:06,239 --> 00:52:08,720
Speaker 4: just gonna, you know, get a victim from our house.

1064
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:11,600
Speaker 1: No, you're absolutely right. And some of these theories of

1065
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:15,799
Speaker 1: loop quantum gravity, for example, they predict that the universe's

1066
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:18,400
Speaker 1: expansion will stop and it will turn around and it

1067
00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:21,920
Speaker 1: will COMPACTI five, so that space is like being destroyed

1068
00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:24,600
Speaker 1: instead of being created, and we'll have like a reverse

1069
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:27,759
Speaker 1: big bang, this big crunch, And it's not clear what

1070
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:30,040
Speaker 1: would happen after that. Would we get another big bang?

1071
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:32,200
Speaker 1: Would we just have no space for a while? What

1072
00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:35,000
Speaker 1: does time even exist anymore? We don't know. So yeah,

1073
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:37,560
Speaker 1: stick around another few trillion years and the question might

1074
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:38,480
Speaker 1: just answer itself.

1075
00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:41,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, things might get a little bit more crowded or

1076
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:45,239
Speaker 4: spacey and cluttered. All right, Well, it sounds like it

1077
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 4: is possible for the universe to not have any space,

1078
00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:50,279
Speaker 4: but we may not find out anytime soon unless we

1079
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:53,920
Speaker 4: observe something incredible or we make a breakthrough in one

1080
00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:56,719
Speaker 4: of these theories that let us look for, you know,

1081
00:52:57,000 --> 00:52:59,959
Speaker 4: kinks that we can use as evidence that space cannot exis.

1082
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:02,840
Speaker 1: Yes, and I think that there will be theoretical progress.

1083
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:05,000
Speaker 1: People are working really hard on this stuff. Black Hole

1084
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:07,759
Speaker 1: information paradox is giving us some clues. So there's a

1085
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:11,000
Speaker 1: lot of really smart people working really hard on these questions.

1086
00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:12,600
Speaker 1: And I think in the next five or ten years

1087
00:53:12,719 --> 00:53:17,000
Speaker 1: we'll see some really clever, fascinating, mind blowing theories coming

1088
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:18,880
Speaker 1: out to explain our bunkers universe.

1089
00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:20,280
Speaker 4: Did you seed a little of space?

1090
00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:21,279
Speaker 2: You know?

1091
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:25,799
Speaker 4: No pressure? All right? Well, we hope you enjoyed that discussion.

1092
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:28,960
Speaker 4: Thanks for joining us, see you next time.

1093
00:53:36,719 --> 00:53:39,520
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain

1094
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:43,560
Speaker 1: the Universe is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts

1095
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Speaker 1: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

1096
00:53:48,280 --> 00:54:02,480
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows. When you pop a

1097
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Speaker 1: piece of cheese into your mouth, you're probably not thinking

1098
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Speaker 1: about the environmental impact. But the people in the dairy

1099
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Speaker 1: find new ways to reduce waste, conserve natural resources, and

1101
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Speaker 1: drive down greenhouse gas emissions. How is us dairy tackling

1102
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Speaker 1: greenhouse gases? Many farms use anaerobic digesters to turn the

1103
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Speaker 1: methane from manure into renewable energy that can power farms, towns,

1104
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Speaker 1: and electric cars. Visit you as dairy dot COM's Last

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Speaker 1: Sustainability to learn more.

1106
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Speaker 3: As a United Explorer Card member, you can earn fifty

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Speaker 3: including a free checked bag, two times the miles on

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Speaker 3: morgan Chase Bank NA Member FDIC subject to credit approval,

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1114
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Speaker 10: There are children, friends, and families walking, riding on paths

1115
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Speaker 10: and roads every day. Remember they're real people with loved

1116
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Speaker 10: ones who need them to get home safely. Protect our

1117
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Speaker 10: cyclists and pedestrians because they're people too. Go Safely, California

1118
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Speaker 10: From the California Office of Traffic Safety and Caltrans