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Speaker 1: Arkansas hasn't executed anyone since two thousand five, but during

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Speaker 1: an eleven days span later this month, the state plans

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Speaker 1: to put eight convicted murderers to death to a day

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Speaker 1: on four different days. The reason for the rush the

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Speaker 1: state just got a new supply of one of the

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Speaker 1: drugs that uses for lethal injections, but the drugs expire

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Speaker 1: at the end of the month. It's the latest and

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Speaker 1: perhaps the most dramatic development stemming from the difficulty that

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Speaker 1: capital punishment states have had in getting the drugs they

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Speaker 1: need for executions, and it's a development that death penalty

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Speaker 1: critics say creates an intolerable risk of botched executions and

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Speaker 1: unnecessary suffering. With us to talk about all this is

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Speaker 1: Austin Saratt. He's a professor at Amherst College. And David Mohausen,

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Speaker 1: he's a research fellow at the Heritage Foundation. Welcome to

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Speaker 1: you both, Um, Austin, there are a lot of legal issues,

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Speaker 1: some of them individuals with these cases. But are you

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Speaker 1: concerned just about the timing of these executions, the fact

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Speaker 1: that so many are taking place in such a could

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Speaker 1: take place in such a short span of time. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I am concerned, Um, I think that when we execute

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Speaker 1: in the United States, we have a commitment rooted in

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Speaker 1: our constitution and our values, that we execute in a

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Speaker 1: way that is humane, insofar as it is possible, maintains

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Speaker 1: the dignity of the condemned. Uh. And I don't think

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Speaker 1: that the plan that Darkins was put in place is

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Speaker 1: consistent with those commitments. I worry that the possibility of mistake,

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Speaker 1: the possibility that something will go wrong, is heightened by

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Speaker 1: this rush to execute, And in particular, I don't think

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Speaker 1: that the United States can take pride in execution assembly

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Speaker 1: long style. David, isn't there a real risk of some

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Speaker 1: sort of mistake during these executions, especially given the fact

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Speaker 1: that the drug that we're talking about, medas LAMB, has

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Speaker 1: been it's a drug that is designed to knock somebody

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Speaker 1: out before the lethal drug is injected. Uh. There have

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Speaker 1: been a number of problems with that drug, or or

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Speaker 1: seeming problems with that drug in previous executions. Well, I

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Speaker 1: think there is a risk, but I believe there's always

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Speaker 1: going to be a risk with the death penalty or

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Speaker 1: any other type of sensing situation. But we need to

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Speaker 1: be aware that these people were convicted of serious crimes.

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Speaker 1: They went through a process where the head appeals and

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Speaker 1: their conviction was not overturned. At some point, these people

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Speaker 1: need to face justice, and so sat Arkansas is doing

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Speaker 1: a compressed schedule, and I hope they can carry it

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Speaker 1: off successfully. But we need to remember that the reason

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Speaker 1: why the state has this compressed schedule is that opponents

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Speaker 1: of the death penalty have put pressure on drug companies

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Speaker 1: do not provide the necessary drugs to carry out the

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Speaker 1: death telling in the first place, So that so you

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Speaker 1: have opponents complaining about a problem that they're responsible for

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Speaker 1: creating in the first place. Yeah, Austin, what about that point?

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Speaker 1: I mean, what, what is a state that has the

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Speaker 1: death penalty is supposed to do? So that you know

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Speaker 1: it's constitutional, the voters of the state apparently approve of it.

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Speaker 1: Um they want to execute somebody who's exhausted all their appeals.

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Speaker 1: What are they supposed to do when they're having so

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Speaker 1: much trouble getting the drugs that they need. I take that.

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Speaker 1: I take the way in which we punish, even when

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Speaker 1: punishment is justified. The way in which we punish is

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Speaker 1: a test of our character and the test of who

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Speaker 1: we are. I have no sympathy for the things that

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Speaker 1: these people did, and for the moment, I'm not arguing

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Speaker 1: whether or not they were justifiably convicted of what they did.

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Speaker 1: I think the question is now, how do we go

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Speaker 1: about carrying out the punishment that the state has chosen

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Speaker 1: to impose. But the Eighth Amendment is all about the

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Speaker 1: exercise of restraint in the face of provocation. What the

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Speaker 1: Eighth Amendment means is that even if people behave in

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Speaker 1: a cruel way, in a vicious way, in a hemous way,

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Speaker 1: we will not punish them in that way. And that's

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Speaker 1: what I think is at stake in what Arkansas is

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Speaker 1: about to do. It's not a question about whether or

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Speaker 1: not these people deserve a particular punishment. The question is

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Speaker 1: about whether or not, as Arkansas seeks to carry out

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Speaker 1: this punishment, it endangers what I think are important American

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Speaker 1: values are the things that separate us from the very

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Speaker 1: people that we um that we condemned. And and look

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Speaker 1: of mass execution of the kind it's a Sami line

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Speaker 1: style of execution puts us in some unusual company. A

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Speaker 1: few weeks ago, Kuit hang seven people on the same

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Speaker 1: day in January of the last year, Saudi Arabia executed

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Speaker 1: forty seven people who've been convicted of crimes. So this

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Speaker 1: is not the usual company that that we want to

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Speaker 1: be associated with. David as I understand that one thing

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Speaker 1: Arkansas does is it it keeps secret the source of

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Speaker 1: the drugs where it actually gets the drugs that it's

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Speaker 1: going to use. Uh do you do you think that's

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Speaker 1: a proper thing for a state to do well. I

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Speaker 1: think it depends on the state's laws in that In

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Speaker 1: that case, and if it's legal for Arkansas to do that,

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Speaker 1: I have no problem with that because the reason why

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Speaker 1: they're keeping in the secret is that they're trying to

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Speaker 1: protect protect the people or the companies that are providing

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Speaker 1: the drugs, because what will happen is as soon as

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Speaker 1: the companies are identified for providing the drugs, de penalty

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Speaker 1: opponents will launch a media campaign, the social pressure campaign

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Speaker 1: to stop the company and selling drugs state. And so

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Speaker 1: this process to seek the process helps the state obtained

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Speaker 1: the necessary components to carry out a lawful execution. Austin,

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Speaker 1: I saw something you wrote shortly after the election where

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Speaker 1: you said that it seemed like the death the death

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Speaker 1: penalty was making a comeback I know a lot of people,

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Speaker 1: particularly before the election, had had thought the death penalty

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Speaker 1: was moving in the direction of of being abolished. Do

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Speaker 1: you still feel the way you did after the election,

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Speaker 1: and if so, why, Well? I think what I wrote

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Speaker 1: suggested that it looked like the death company was making

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Speaker 1: a comeback. But my argument was that despite what happened

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Speaker 1: in Oklahoma and Nebraska and California in three referenda, and

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Speaker 1: despite the election of a pro definitely president, the underlying

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Speaker 1: trends were running very strongly against capital punishment, and they

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Speaker 1: were unlikely to be um derailed by what happened in

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Speaker 1: California Oklahoma asking him by the election of the president.

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Speaker 1: We're at a period of national reconsideration of capital punishment.

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Speaker 1: It's happening all over the country, including in places like Texas.

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Speaker 1: The number of death sentences is way down, the number

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Speaker 1: of executions is way down, and public support full capital

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Speaker 1: punishment is the lowest that it is being in decades.

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Speaker 1: And I don't think what happened in November is going

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Speaker 1: to change those what I call fundamental conditions. Than thank

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Speaker 1: you for for for that clarification, which I I obviously

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Speaker 1: didn't read your article closely enough enough so thank you

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Speaker 1: for that, and thank you for joining us. Austin Saratt,

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Speaker 1: Professor d Amherst College, and David Mulhausen, Research Fellow at

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Speaker 1: the Heritage Foundation. That's it for this edition of Bloomberg Law.

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Speaker 1: We'll be back tomorrow thanks to our technical director Reginald

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Speaker 1: Basil and our producer David Sutterman. Coming up on Bloomberg Radio,

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Speaker 1: have ten seconds. What are you gonna talk about? F

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Speaker 1: O m C minutes back to you, good stuff. Okay,

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Speaker 1: stay tuned for are all that and more here on

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