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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Day thirty one, Nancy Guthrie missing.

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Speaker 2: I've never seen anything like it before, with.

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Speaker 1: This amount of evidence, the guys on video.

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Speaker 2: We have his height, we have his weight, we have

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Speaker 2: the date.

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Speaker 1: We've got the time, We've got fifty thousand tips. Nancy

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Speaker 1: Guthrie still missing. Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 2: So, Sheriff, it's been thirty days since Nancy Guthrie went missing.

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Speaker 1: Our investigators is any closer to finding the suspect or suspects?

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Speaker 2: I think the investigators are are definitely closer.

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Speaker 3: We got a lot of intel, a lot of leads,

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Speaker 3: but now it's time to.

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Speaker 4: Just go to work.

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Speaker 5: This is Sheriff Nanos from our friends at the Today Show.

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Speaker 1: Day thirty one, Nancy Guthrie still missing. The reward now

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Speaker 1: up to over one point two million dollars. Straight out

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Speaker 1: to Crime Stories investigative reporter Dave Matt Dave, what's the latest, Nancy.

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Speaker 5: It has been a remarkable twenty four hours. Yet we

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Speaker 5: saw Savannah and her sister Annie and Annie's husband as

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Speaker 5: it was such an emotional time as they went to

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Speaker 5: the memorial, the makeshift memorial at Nancy Guthrie's home. It's

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Speaker 5: right on the edge of the property, set up by

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Speaker 5: neighbors and just people who want to show the Guthrie

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Speaker 5: family that you know, they're thinking of them. But Annie

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Speaker 5: and Tomaso joined Savannah as they walked arm in arm

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Speaker 5: to this makeshift memorial and left a note for their mother.

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Speaker 5: And I'm telling you it was just so powerful. Also,

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Speaker 5: you know, from the madness, we've had a lot of

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Speaker 5: streaming people, you know, people who are journalists or claimed

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Speaker 5: to be journalists. But there was a shocking moment that

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Speaker 5: has taken place out in front of Nancy Guthrie's home,

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Speaker 5: and it kind of goes back to why the Sheriff's

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Speaker 5: department has moved everyone away from the neighborhood. You know,

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Speaker 5: the media, legitimate media, streamers, everybody have been backed up

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Speaker 5: and there's also coming out right now. We had two

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Speaker 5: people detained early on in the investigation. It ended up,

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Speaker 5: if you remember, a range rover was taped off in

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Speaker 5: a Culver's parking lot and law enforcement searched this thing.

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Speaker 5: They searched that, they took it back to the lab

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Speaker 5: and did everything they do in searching this range robber,

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Speaker 5: but they also served two search warrants at the same

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Speaker 5: time and actually detained thirty seven year old Luke Daily

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Speaker 5: and his mother Mary. These people have been outed, I

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Speaker 5: guess the only way to put it by some people

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Speaker 5: online that are suggesting that Luke Daily is the kidnapper

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Speaker 5: in the video. And Luke Daily, the only reason I'm

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Speaker 5: even mentioning his name is because he actually has come

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Speaker 5: out publicly to say I'm the guy that was detained.

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Speaker 3: It was my range rover and I have nothing to

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Speaker 3: do with this. So we've got that information now coming out.

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Speaker 5: And then that Luke and his mother both speaking out publicly,

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Speaker 5: would like to add something. And the search warrants that

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Speaker 5: were served at two different locations for the Guthrie as

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Speaker 5: part of the Guthrie investigation married Daily, Luke Daily's mother.

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Speaker 5: She's seventy seven years old, and while they were serving

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Speaker 5: a search warrant on her home, she was detained in

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Speaker 5: the back of a police squad car for seven hours

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Speaker 5: in a car while they served that search warrant. And

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Speaker 5: I guess it's just one of those little sidebar things

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Speaker 5: you don't think about, you know, of what happens when

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Speaker 5: they serve a search warrant to the people who live there,

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Speaker 5: especially if the people.

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Speaker 3: Involved had nothing to do with the crime.

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Speaker 5: So those are the latest things that are really making

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Speaker 5: noise today. Also, there has been an interesting take on

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Speaker 5: senior citizen communities such as where Nancy Guthrie lives, and

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Speaker 5: they seem to be very safe. You would think that

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Speaker 5: if your mom and dad live in an area like

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Speaker 5: this in their retirement, their golden years, that they would

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Speaker 5: be safe. It's not necessarily the case. In neighborhoods like

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Speaker 5: Nancy Guthries. You're not living right next door to a neighbor.

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Speaker 5: There's a good amount of distance between you, and oftentimes

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Speaker 5: in these neighborhoods, people don't know one another. So if

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Speaker 5: you don't know your neighbor because you don't see them regularly,

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Speaker 5: or you just don't know them, you know, then you

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Speaker 5: don't know their patterns, you don't know when something might

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Speaker 5: seem off, and that's something to think about, and some

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Speaker 5: experts have chimed in on that in the last forty

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Speaker 5: eight hours talking about these retirement type communities and how

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Speaker 5: they're not as safe, even gated communities not nearly as

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Speaker 5: safe as we would like to believe they are. So

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Speaker 5: that was fascinating. It's one of the things we have

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Speaker 5: found out in Nancy Guthrie's case. There are a number

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Speaker 5: of other things involved in this investigation that are continuing

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Speaker 5: to move forward, and you know, we're just going to

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Speaker 5: have to wait our turn, I guess. But to go

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Speaker 5: back to Savannah Guthrie yesterday, you know, we talked a

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Speaker 5: minute ago about the notes left behind. There was a

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Speaker 5: note left at the memorial, the makeshift memorial Cameron Guthrie,

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Speaker 5: by the way, Savannah's older brother.

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Speaker 3: He was not present.

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Speaker 5: I don't know if he's still in the Tucson area

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Speaker 5: or if he's gone back home, but they left a

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Speaker 5: note for the at the memorial, speaking directly to Nancy Guthrie.

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Speaker 5: It says, Mama, we miss you so much. Our hearts

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Speaker 5: are broken. We are standing on ash unscorched earth. But Mom,

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Speaker 5: though we are surrounded by so much darkness and uncertainty,

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Speaker 5: our love burns bright. We love you, mommy, We miss

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Speaker 5: you so much. Our best friend. Then, later in the day,

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Speaker 5: after the public got notice of the memorial or the

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Speaker 5: mix of memorial, Savannah Guthrie posted on Instagram a private

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Speaker 5: message by the way.

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Speaker 3: This was the first.

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Speaker 5: Time other than in video form, that Savannah Guthrie has

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Speaker 5: been seen out in public since all of this started

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Speaker 5: on February first, we have seen the family on video.

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Speaker 5: This is the first time actually seen out in public.

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Speaker 5: Later in the day, Savannah Guthrie released this on Instagram.

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Speaker 5: We feel the love and prayers from our neighbors, from

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Speaker 5: the Tucson community and from around the country. Please don't

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Speaker 5: stop and hoping with us bring her home. So that

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Speaker 5: kind of gets you updated on what's taking place right

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Speaker 5: now in the Guthrie investigation in Tucson. So now the

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Speaker 5: biggest question is where do we go from here? What's

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Speaker 5: the next step in the investigation.

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Speaker 1: Chris mcdonnaugh joining US former homicide detective with over three

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Speaker 1: hundred homicides under his belt, now director at Cold Case

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Speaker 1: Foundation and star of the Interview Room on YouTube. Chris

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Speaker 1: McDonough if you were handling this case, what would you

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Speaker 1: be doing right now?

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Speaker 6: So, Nancy, I think here's what's going to happen right now.

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Speaker 6: The investigation has compressed, that's what we would call it, meaning,

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Speaker 6: you know, the task force where there was a command

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Speaker 6: center for both the FBI and the PEMA County Sheriff's Office,

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Speaker 6: you know, had assembled together in one working group, has

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Speaker 6: now split into two. There have been investigators assigned from

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Speaker 6: the Pima County Sheriff's Office, who my best estimate is

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Speaker 6: going to be the same homicide team that was called out.

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Speaker 4: From the very beginning.

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Speaker 6: They are now pulled back into their own agency where

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Speaker 6: they'll be working alongside probably one FBI agent. And then

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Speaker 6: the FBI has pulled back into the Phoenix headquarters where

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Speaker 6: they're going to establish.

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Speaker 4: Their own little war room is what we'll call it.

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Speaker 6: And from there, both of those agencies will work simultaneously.

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Speaker 4: Both of those agencies.

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Speaker 6: Will work together, but they will be working in tandem

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Speaker 6: on any type of investigative leads that come in. So

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Speaker 6: I think at this point what I believe is going

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Speaker 6: to be pivotal in relationship to solving this investigation. First

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Speaker 6: of all, it's going to have to go back to

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Speaker 6: reinterviewing all the other folks that you started to interview

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Speaker 6: from the very beginning, because the reason for that is

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Speaker 6: the investigation may have uncovered, you know, additional information like

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Speaker 6: digital footprints, DNA and all of that stuff that's starting

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Speaker 6: to come back. Well, you may have an original statement

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Speaker 6: from somebody early on. So it's imperative that investigators go

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Speaker 6: back and they sit down with the initial witnesses that

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Speaker 6: they spoke to in the very beginning, because a lot

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Speaker 6: of times witnesses also will recall events that they forgot,

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Speaker 6: you know, to tell investigators, and that you know, you

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Speaker 6: just never know. There could be one word that could

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Speaker 6: change the course of the entire focus. And then I

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Speaker 6: think that when the DNA starts to come back, and

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Speaker 6: depending on what type of DNA they're trying to you know, get,

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Speaker 6: that could take.

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Speaker 4: A look little bit longer.

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Speaker 6: So this is really a focused investigation now from the

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Speaker 6: digital footprint. And I believe that's probably why they started,

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Speaker 6: you know, taking up the car avenue, you know, where

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Speaker 6: they got the range Rover.

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Speaker 4: They served some search warrants.

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Speaker 6: I believe those individuals came into that geographic or excuse me,

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Speaker 6: the geo fencing that they had established post the crime

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Speaker 6: and pre crime, so they saw networks coming in, cell phones,

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Speaker 6: that type of stuff, and then they started contacting those people.

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Speaker 6: And what did you get. You've got a DoorDash driver.

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Speaker 6: You've got a guy driving a range Rover who says, hey, yeah,

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Speaker 6: I drive through that area, etc. So those search warrants

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Speaker 6: were established pretty quickly. And then of course you've had

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Speaker 6: the bitcoin problem that was out there.

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Speaker 4: They hit the guy on lost hair Angelo's pretty fast.

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Speaker 6: And so what they're doing is they're just checking off

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Speaker 6: the boxes and then once those boxes are all checked,

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Speaker 6: they're going to see what's left. And that's where you know,

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Speaker 6: good old gumshoe police work, where you just go, you know,

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Speaker 6: knocking on doors and you start reinterviewing people over again,

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Speaker 6: and that's where you get the anomalies in an investigation.

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Speaker 5: Typically, Chris, what vehicles have been returned to their proper

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Speaker 5: owners at this point?

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Speaker 6: At this point, Dave, what you have is the range

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Speaker 6: Rover has been returned the So there were three cars

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Speaker 6: in my understanding that were actually impounded, the range Rover,

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Speaker 6: the victim's car, Nancy's and the daughter's car. Believe it

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Speaker 6: or not, Annie's car or Annie's family car. Nancy's car

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Speaker 6: is still being hold for obvious reasons, you know the

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Speaker 6: fact that she's you know, the missing victim here. However,

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Speaker 6: the authorities at Pima County Share Department have not released

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Speaker 6: any car.

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Speaker 4: They're not also telling us why that is the case.

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Speaker 6: And so that's somewhat of a mystery right now, why

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Speaker 6: they would hold that car for almost a month.

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Speaker 2: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: RV.

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Speaker 2: Brandt joining US.

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Speaker 1: Former Senior Inspector US Marshall Service, International Investigations Branch, Chief

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Speaker 1: Inspector with the DJ International Affairs Country Attache. Has been

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Speaker 1: all over the world working in embassies and author of

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Speaker 1: a series on Amazon of Jack Solo. The most recent

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Speaker 1: going solo The Gospel of Luke or Thank You for

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Speaker 1: Being with Us. We can't get away from the possibility.

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Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie, what's taken to Mexico? How do you go

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Speaker 1: about extricating someone from Mexico?

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Speaker 7: Well, it is it will be a lot different than

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Speaker 7: what you would conduct here in the United States, and

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Speaker 7: you would partner up, you would have a liaison with

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Speaker 7: your Mexican counterparts.

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Speaker 4: But the.

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Speaker 7: Agencies like the FBI in the United States, Marshall Service

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Speaker 7: and things like that, when we send people to these countries,

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Speaker 7: these are people who are very proficient in Spanish and

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Speaker 7: they're very familiar with the culture. You know, a lot

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Speaker 7: of them have families on both sides of the borders.

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Speaker 7: They know how to work an operation and they know

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Speaker 7: how to conduct an investigation in Mexico. It's not like

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Speaker 7: you know a stranger coming from Abad. I don't know

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Speaker 7: the names of the streets and you know things like that.

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Speaker 7: But that's not the case. They know these cities backwards

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Speaker 7: and forwards, and they know the law enforcement in there.

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Speaker 7: It's not going to be a problem for them to

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Speaker 7: conduct these investigations and follow whatever leads come up.

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Speaker 1: Brandt, there are huge swaths of thousands of acres that

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Speaker 1: are uninhabited.

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Speaker 2: Where do you start.

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Speaker 7: Well, to go into Mexico to search and to basically

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Speaker 7: what you're saying is to conduct a criminal investigation on

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Speaker 7: and a sovereign nation, you have to seek permission, and

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Speaker 7: it would go through our legal attaches that we have

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Speaker 7: at our embassies and our consulates, and Mexican authorities are

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Speaker 7: more than willing to cooperate with US law enforcement. And

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Speaker 7: we have a very large presence in MEXICOI has a

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Speaker 7: large presidence in Mexico. The DEA has a large presidence

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Speaker 7: in Mexico. The United States Marshall Service has a large

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Speaker 7: President's presidence in Mexico. And all these agencies will work together,

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Speaker 7: they will pull the resources, they'll pull. My man their

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Speaker 7: manpower together, and they all have liaisons with the Mexican

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Speaker 7: federal police, but also the police in the jurisdictions that

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Speaker 7: you're going to, you know, into the towns, into the

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Speaker 7: things like that, and they will help facilitate the federal

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Speaker 7: agents getting in and talking and following up on these

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Speaker 7: leads and doing searches.

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Speaker 1: Brant, how far into Mexico if this is a viable alternative,

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Speaker 1: how far into Mexico do you think the purps would

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Speaker 1: have gone?

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Speaker 7: Well, the first thing, the place that I would hit

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Speaker 7: first are the places that are closest. You would start

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Speaker 7: where you would possibly think the eai easiest border crossing

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Speaker 7: would be. You know, you define what that is. Then

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Speaker 7: you concentrate your law enforcement, you know, with the photographs

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Speaker 7: and you know the materials that they need, and start

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Speaker 7: there and do it very intensely. And if you get

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Speaker 7: zero results, zero leads, that's when you start expanding it out.

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Speaker 7: And I would expand it out along the border before

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Speaker 7: going deeper into Mexico. The thing, the objective, the first

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Speaker 7: thing that you would want to know is where they

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Speaker 7: crossed at. Then that would give you a bigger clue

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Speaker 7: as to where.

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Speaker 4: They were going.

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Speaker 7: You know, once they're inside of Mexico. So I mean

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Speaker 7: it's very different if you cross from uh, you know,

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Speaker 7: San Diego for example, into Tijuana, as opposed to you

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Speaker 7: crossed from El Paso into war as Yeah, I mean

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Speaker 7: that that would change the scope of the investigation dramatic.

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Speaker 1: Brent, you have dealt with all sorts of offenders all

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Speaker 1: around the world.

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Speaker 2: What's your take on this guy?

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Speaker 7: If you were going to write how not to conduct

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Speaker 7: a kidnapping, this is this is the perfect example. This

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Speaker 7: case makes no sense.

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Speaker 4: It.

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Speaker 7: Kidnapping is a crime as old as time itself. You

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Speaker 7: know people kidnapping, you know people and for ransom or

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Speaker 7: for hostages to ensure things. That's been going on forever.

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Speaker 7: And I have never encountered a case that's similar. I

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Speaker 7: mean not even close. I've never been all my years

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Speaker 7: in law enforcement, I've never heard of a case like

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Speaker 7: this that devies logic. Uh. I've gone over it in

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Speaker 7: my head and doing just what you said you as

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Speaker 7: an investigator, you have to try to get in the

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Speaker 7: mind of the kidnapper. And the only thing that you know,

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Speaker 7: the only phrase that keeps coming out into my mind

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Speaker 7: is what were you thinking? What were you thinking? What

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Speaker 7: were you thinking, you know, this is clearly not someone

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Speaker 7: who's ever did a kidnapping before. I mean, I just

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Speaker 7: I can't make no sense of it, and I can't

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Speaker 7: get behind the reasoning of you know, how this happened

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Speaker 7: in any logical explanation for you, I don't know. It's

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Speaker 7: it is just the most bizarre thing I have ever encountered.

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Speaker 7: When you talk about kidnappings, there are so far many

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Speaker 7: other Just like you said with the notes and things,

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Speaker 7: you don't go to the media. I mean, that's the

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Speaker 7: last thing you do. Can you tell the people don't

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Speaker 7: go to the police and don't go to the media,

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Speaker 7: or you'll never see your loved one again. I mean,

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Speaker 7: that's basic kidnapping. One oh one. It seems like they

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Speaker 7: went in the exact opposite way on how to conduct

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Speaker 7: a kidnapping.

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Speaker 2: Hi there.

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Speaker 8: Coming on to say, it is day twenty four since

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Speaker 8: our mom was taken in the dark of night from

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Speaker 8: her bed, and every hour and minute and second and

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Speaker 8: every long night has been agony since then of about

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Speaker 8: her and fearing for her, aching for her, and most

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Speaker 8: of all just missing her. Missing her.

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Speaker 1: Savannah Guthrie, you can see her deteriorating with every missive

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Speaker 1: with every video plea that she issues, that reward is

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Speaker 1: full of implications.

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Speaker 2: For instance, earlier.

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Speaker 1: Up until that time, the reward had been predicated upon

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Speaker 1: the arrest and or conviction of the kidnapper.

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Speaker 2: Not so anymore.

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Speaker 1: The family begging for information to bring Nancy Guthrie home.

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Speaker 1: This as we learn a DNA sample found in the

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Speaker 1: home is absolutely definitively stranger DNA.

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Speaker 2: Where was it found? When was it found? Can it

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Speaker 2: be isolated and identified?

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Speaker 1: A lot happening straight out to special guests joining us

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Speaker 1: Mary Coleman, she is the thirteen Evening anchor at KOLD.

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Speaker 1: If you will recall that was one of the stations

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Speaker 1: that got a ransom note.

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Speaker 2: Mary Coleman, thank you for being with us. Mary. What

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Speaker 2: is the latest.

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Speaker 9: Well Nancy talking about the ransom note? A lot of

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Speaker 9: people have questioned why there's been silence. We personally haven't

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Speaker 9: received any notes for a while now, and a lot

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Speaker 9: of people are still questioning the legitimacy of those notes.

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Speaker 9: Law enforcement still hasn't said one way or another, but

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Speaker 9: it was clear when the family started coming out with

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Speaker 9: those videos that they were taking these notes very seriously

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Speaker 9: because of some of the contents of them.

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Speaker 2: There was a flurry of activity.

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Speaker 1: This is from our friends at Fox News, Mary Coleman

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Speaker 1: joining us Kold.

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Speaker 2: Also, Mary, were you there.

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Speaker 1: At your station when the first note came in?

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Speaker 9: The mood was still the same when I got in

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Speaker 9: when we saw the first notes, just because of how

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Speaker 9: put together the note was, it was pretty alarming once

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Speaker 9: we started to read it a little further and we

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Speaker 9: immediately handed that over to law enforcement.

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Speaker 2: What was so alarming about it?

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Speaker 10: I think.

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Speaker 9: How eloquent this person was, frankly, Nancy. I mean, you

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Speaker 9: would think, you know, some note like this would be

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Speaker 9: all over the place. It's a ransom note, someone's demanding something,

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Speaker 9: so you would think that they'd be in a state

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Speaker 9: of shock or you know, a different state. But this

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Speaker 9: person was clearly in a place where they were able

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Speaker 9: to get their thoughts across. It was clear concise, and

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Speaker 9: I think that was what was most alarming to us,

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Speaker 9: is that that's when we said, Okay, this might be real,

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Speaker 9: this might not be a hoax.

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Speaker 2: What about it made you think it was real? Mary?

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Speaker 10: There were some details in there that.

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Speaker 9: Only a person who perhaps was with Nancy would know,

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Speaker 9: and I think law enforcement finally alluded to some of

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Speaker 9: those details a little bit later on a watch and

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Speaker 9: some of the things that may have been in her room,

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Speaker 9: and so seeing those and hearing about that was just

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Speaker 9: it was a lot for us to see, and again

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Speaker 9: immediately sent it over to law enforcement, who also immediately

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Speaker 9: got back to us and asked for some more details

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Speaker 9: so that they could try and track down who it was.

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Speaker 10: And as we also mentioned.

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Speaker 9: Again earlier, it's gone pretty silent from whoever this person

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Speaker 9: or people is as far as notes coming into our newsroom.

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Speaker 1: Mary, did that note that you observed with Kold did

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Speaker 1: it offer proof of life other than the details about

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Speaker 1: the inside of her room?

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Speaker 9: It did not, Nancy, And we actually received two notes.

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Speaker 9: The first one I would call a ransom note, the

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Speaker 9: second I wouldn't. There were no demands there, but there

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Speaker 9: was no proof of life in either of those notes

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Speaker 9: that we received.

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Speaker 1: The first one was a ransom. The second one they

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Speaker 1: did not ask for a ransom.

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Speaker 2: What do they want?

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Speaker 10: It was more of a declaration.

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Speaker 9: And unfortunately, I still can't talk too much about the

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Speaker 9: contents of these notes because once again we still don't

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Speaker 9: know the legitimacy of them, and law enforcement is still

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Speaker 9: looking into that. But there were no requests in this note.

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Speaker 9: It was more of a declaration, and I think the

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Speaker 9: tone of the videos that the family released after kind

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Speaker 9: of indicated what may have been in that note and

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Speaker 9: how they were feeling about if these were.

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Speaker 1: Legitimate exactly, Mary, I understand because the desperation exhibited in

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Speaker 1: each progressive video from Savannah and her siblings tells me

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Speaker 1: that they got more and more concerned, likely because of

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Speaker 1: these notes. So you're not telling me this, but I

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Speaker 1: am interpreting that these second note, while it did not

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Speaker 1: demand a ransom or an increase in ransom, it emphasized

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Speaker 1: the seriousness of the first note, and of course you

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Speaker 1: guys immediately handed that over. Guys again, Mary Coleman joining

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Speaker 1: us from KOLD. We've heard a lot about the missive

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Speaker 1: sent to TMZ. There was also a missive sent to

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Speaker 1: kg U N two sent to KOLD, and the nature

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Speaker 1: of the notes and the recipients indicated to me on

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Speaker 1: day one that this was someone in the Tucson area

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Speaker 1: that maybe grew up hearing or watching KOLD, was very

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Speaker 1: familiar with it. That said, when you read the notes,

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Speaker 1: Mary Coleman, and I'm not asking you to divulge their contents.

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Speaker 2: I know you won't do that.

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Speaker 1: Did you believe they were real? And were you afraid

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Speaker 1: for missus Guthrie?

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Speaker 9: Sure, yeah, I mean the first it took us a

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Speaker 9: second once we started reading a little bit further, and

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Speaker 9: that's when we felt like these were legitimate claims being made.

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Speaker 9: And so by the time the second one came in,

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Speaker 9: we were all very alarmed by it. And I will

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Speaker 9: say that, yes, absolutely, our stomach dropped and our guts

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Speaker 9: were not feeling great. We were scared and still are

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Speaker 9: scared for what happened to Nancy, And at the end

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Speaker 9: of the day of the goal is getting her back,

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Speaker 9: and that's what everyone wants right now.

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Speaker 1: I know you will not divult details, but in the notes,

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Speaker 1: did the per well the person writing the notes threatened

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Speaker 1: specific harm to Nancy?

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Speaker 9: See in the first note there was an allusion to

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Speaker 9: something that may happen if a price wasn't paid. In

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Speaker 9: the second note there was none of that.

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Speaker 1: So the first note was more threatening than the second note.

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Speaker 1: The second note was more Hey, I really meant it

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Speaker 1: when I said that first.

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Speaker 2: Note, sud that be accurate.

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Speaker 10: Supporting the first correct.

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Speaker 1: Got it, and then interestingly, a lot of the missives

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Speaker 1: went dead and this is unlike any other ransom scenario

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Speaker 1: I've ever seen.

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Speaker 2: I've still got to get back to the DNA.

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Speaker 1: That's what I want to talk about tonight, the DNA

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Speaker 1: found at the scene. But Bravas Gibbons is joining US

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Speaker 1: Director Operations usp A nationwide security He actually leads a

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Speaker 1: team of missing persons investigators that travel the world extracting

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Speaker 1: them and finding them at Uspasecurity dot Com. Also from

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Speaker 1: a marine also Iraqi war Vet. Needless to say, he's

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Speaker 1: seen it all, typically in a ransom, which is why

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Speaker 1: a lot of people were curious about the timing of

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Speaker 1: these notes. The person is kidnapped and you immediately get

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Speaker 1: a ransom. They don't just hold on to an eighty

442
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 1: four year old woman from multiple days and then go

443
00:27:58,359 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 1: oh yeah, hey, I meant to send this.

444
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:01,159
Speaker 2: The other day, but now here it is.

445
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:05,879
Speaker 1: That was very unusual because the point of the kidnap

446
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:10,919
Speaker 1: is to get the money, and they waited for was

447
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 1: it seventy two hours or more before the first ransom note.

448
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 2: I find it hard to believe. Brian. You have to

449
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:19,240
Speaker 2: analyze this like it's.

450
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 1: A Rubik's cube until you put it all together, constantly

451
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 1: changing your theory. I wonder if they hadn't decided yet

452
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 1: to whom they would send the ransom, because they originally

453
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 1: sent it right to three places TMZ Kold and I

454
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 1: believe Kgun. Did they not have it together because they

455
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 1: had certainly been at her home before, they had taken

456
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 1: time to stake it out. But what they didn't have

457
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 1: their ransom idea together? What do you make of the delay?

458
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 1: And they never, to our knowledge, have sent visual proof

459
00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 1: of life, like a video or a picture of Nancy Guthrie.

460
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 1: They did, however, according to Mary Coleman, Kold give details

461
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 1: from the inside of her room. Now, some of the

462
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 1: details were already out there, like her smart watch, like

463
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 1: the floodlight. But I'm inferring that there were more details

464
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 1: in that ransom note that other people couldn't glean by

465
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 1: just hopping.

466
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 2: On the internet.

467
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 11: Absolutely, and these ransom notes that were sent to the

468
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 11: media outlets don't meet any of the traditional hallmarks of

469
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 11: a kidnap and ransom case.

470
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 4: That's something that's been.

471
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 11: Highlighted very early on, right reaching out to the media

472
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 11: versus directly to the family, not having a clear and

473
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 11: distinct path for payment, and terms, not providing proof of life.

474
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 11: You know, these are things that a typical kidnap and

475
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 11: ransom case, the ransomer will want to be in direct

476
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,719
Speaker 11: contact with the Fan family to make this deal as

477
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:05,479
Speaker 11: quickly as possible, And that didn't happen here. So it

478
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 11: really lends credence to the idea that these were opportunists

479
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 11: and not authentic.

480
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 1: What do we know about an accomplice? What is the

481
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 1: theory behind that? Not only that the drum beat louder

482
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 1: that somehow a Mexican cartel is involved. I find that

483
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 1: very difficult to believe. Nothing about Nancy Guthrie's kidnapping has

484
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 1: any hallmark of a cartel operation. This as Google is

485
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 1: working fast and furious to recover even more video, possibly audio,

486
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 1: biological matter.

487
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 2: And DNA found in the home.

488
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 1: This as Sheriff Nanos blurts out more strategic information, that

489
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 1: being that he thinks there's an accomplice and that he

490
00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 1: believes Nancy Guthrie is being held close to home. Nia's

491
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 1: flash accomplice. We know about you, and the sheriff's looking

492
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 1: for you. Way to go, Nanos, You're like a gumball machine.

493
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 1: I said it last night. It's up here and it

494
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:14,959
Speaker 1: just comes out you can't stop it. Not only that

495
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 1: revealing his belief that Nancy Guthrie is close to home?

496
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 1: Is that why we see raids on neighbors? All this

497
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 1: is happening now and more straight out to Dave Mac,

498
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 1: Crime Stories investigative reporter and as we mentioned before, Dave Mac,

499
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 1: the Guthrie family feeling the onus upon them to try

500
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 1: and get searches started in Mexico.

501
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 2: I mean, it just never ends with all their going through,

502
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 2: you know.

503
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 1: Dave, let me just be blunt. You and I have

504
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 1: talked many, many, many times off camera.

505
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 2: You were a guest, one of my.

506
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 1: Favorite guests all the way back at HLN. I don't

507
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 1: know if you recall that or not.

508
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, but I remember.

509
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 2: I don't know how. Yeah, good time.

510
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 1: But Dave, I don't know how I would have done

511
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 1: it if right after my fiance was murdered, I was told, okay,

512
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 1: now you help us solve it. Okay, then get busy.

513
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 1: It's insane. But Savannah, our friend, Savannah Guthrie, feels they

514
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 1: have to reach out to groups in Mexico to try

515
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 1: and find her mother. I mean insanity. But let's start

516
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:34,240
Speaker 1: with the latest. Nana's blurting out he believes that Nancy

517
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 1: Guthrie is being held close to home. Why is he

518
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 1: saying that? And about an accomplice? What about those polygraphs?

519
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 1: You've heard nothing about them. Okay, day, bring me up

520
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 1: to date.

521
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 5: Let's start with the accomplice because this goes to the

522
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 5: nitty gritty of you know, you've talked about how nanos

523
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 5: just blurting stuff the other day.

524
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 3: That's what he was doing.

525
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 5: He blurted out that he believes there's an accomplice. And

526
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 5: the suggestion is that we have the video of the

527
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 5: bungling kidnapper at the front door, and we don't see

528
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 5: a second person, but we know we've got an eighty

529
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 5: four year old woman who lacks mobility and is going

530
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 5: to need help to leave a lot of a lot.

531
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 3: Of what Nano's is saying.

532
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 5: I really think he's just kind of theorizing in his

533
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 5: head and just blurting out ideas because he doesn't know

534
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 5: what to say.

535
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 1: But Nancy's suggesting, do you recall what I told you

536
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 1: my elected district attorney, he was like a grandfather to me.

537
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,400
Speaker 2: Lewis Layton. At the time, he was the longest serving

538
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 2: elected daight in the country.

539
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,960
Speaker 1: I believe it was thirty seven years and he had

540
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 1: a rule, do not speak to the press, And whenever

541
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 1: I would be cornered coming in or out of the courthouse,

542
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 1: I would always say the same thing. They seemingly never

543
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 1: caught on. I would always say, I believe the jury

544
00:33:58,120 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 1: will return a true ver.

545
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 2: That's it. That would be it.

546
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 1: So all the spinning out, let's say, I'm just talking

547
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 1: out loud.

548
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 2: It's insane. That's a huge, huge.

549
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 1: No no to Franz Borcart joining us, a criminal defense attorney,

550
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:21,480
Speaker 1: founder of Borcart's law firm, former prosecutor, professor at Louisiana

551
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 1: State University. Franz, that's just what the defense team would

552
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,320
Speaker 1: love and what the kidnapper loves.

553
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:31,640
Speaker 2: He is, and it's a he.

554
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:34,279
Speaker 1: He is getting all of his information anythink he needs

555
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 1: to know from nanos.

556
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 12: I can't believe they are still talking to the press.

557
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 12: And you're absolutely right, Nancy. As a defense attorney, I'm

558
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 12: just taking notes. I'm sitting back and I'm going to

559
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:49,439
Speaker 12: do a search for any and everything that was said

560
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 12: before the arrest because eventually they're going to make an

561
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,919
Speaker 12: arrest on this one. But yeah, he needs to shut

562
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 12: his hole and just and stop because he's not helping

563
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 12: the investigations.

564
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 2: Crime stories with Nancy Grace.

565
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 1: To Brian Fitzgibbons joining US and Brian, I'm going to

566
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:15,840
Speaker 1: circle back to you on the possibility that this is

567
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 1: a cartel operation, which is far fetched, extremely far fetched.

568
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:23,319
Speaker 1: I'll get you explained why so we can put that

569
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:25,919
Speaker 1: away and get it off our table of analysis. Brian

570
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:29,799
Speaker 1: Fitzgibbons is joining US. He's the director of Operations at

571
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:31,840
Speaker 1: USPA Nationwide Security.

572
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:33,279
Speaker 2: What is that.

573
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 1: He leads a team of investigators around the world finding

574
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 1: missing people. He is a Marine vet. He is a

575
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 1: former Marine and an Iraqi war vet. Let me talk

576
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:52,839
Speaker 1: to you about the possibility of an accomplice because it's

577
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 1: been out there circulating and the nanos blurted it out

578
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:57,439
Speaker 1: that he thinks there may be an accomplice.

579
00:35:57,920 --> 00:35:59,320
Speaker 2: Why he said that, I mean.

580
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 1: Really, it's just like waving the red flag in front

581
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:06,320
Speaker 1: of a bull. It's like putting on the overhead speaker

582
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:11,799
Speaker 1: in high school. We now know there's an accomplice and

583
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:14,279
Speaker 1: we're coming after you, which in my mind would only

584
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 1: make the accomplice panic.

585
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 2: But that said, what leads you.

586
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 1: To agree or disagree regarding an accomplice.

587
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,880
Speaker 11: I certainly agree with that, Nancy. I've been saying this

588
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 11: since we started covering this case. First of all, just

589
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:33,360
Speaker 11: like we call him, you know, the bungling kidnapper on

590
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 11: the porch, This is indicative to me that he's being

591
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:42,400
Speaker 11: controlled and supervised by somebody, That he did not do

592
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,560
Speaker 11: this alone, that this was just a foot soldier that

593
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 11: was sent forward, you know, to disable that camera and

594
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 11: gain entry to the house. So I think his lack

595
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:57,840
Speaker 11: of sophistication on that porch itself shows that there's there's

596
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 11: someone else involved who's his superior.

597
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 1: Nobody is biting about the backpack, I keep saying it

598
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 1: and nobody's touching it with ten foot pole. Fitz Gibbons,

599
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 1: he comes up to the scene. Let's see him when

600
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 1: he first approaches who gave him the backpack? Because there

601
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:23,879
Speaker 1: is absolutely a moment he doesn't have the backpack. Where

602
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:26,920
Speaker 1: did it go? Who gave it to him? Was it

603
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 1: in the car? Did he have to go retrieve it?

604
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:32,040
Speaker 1: Did he put it back in the car? So if

605
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 1: there is a car, trust me, he didn't leave it

606
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:37,800
Speaker 1: laying out on the front lawn. So if there's a car,

607
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 1: is somebody in the car you really think, just think

608
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 1: about it forensically, clinically.

609
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:49,719
Speaker 2: Would he do this alone?

610
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 1: Because the reason I care, fitz Gibbons is the more

611
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 1: people involved, the more likely somebody's gonna talk. You've got

612
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 1: an extra girlfriend, you got an extra grandma or mom,

613
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:07,400
Speaker 1: or an extra neighbor or little sister. Somebody knows something's up,

614
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,799
Speaker 1: and that reward is climbing. That's why I care. If

615
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:12,879
Speaker 1: there's an accomplice. They can both go straight to hell

616
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:16,279
Speaker 1: and burn for all I care, but I want to

617
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 1: catch them. So what do you think about the backpack aspect?

618
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:24,359
Speaker 11: Yeah, and there's there's one I agree with you there

619
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:27,000
Speaker 11: that that backpack wouldn't have just been placed on the

620
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:30,799
Speaker 11: ground randomly. In that first video, when you see him

621
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:36,319
Speaker 11: approaching the porch, there's a shadow being cast from the

622
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:39,479
Speaker 11: left to the right, all right, indicative of that motion

623
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:43,120
Speaker 11: light that was destroyed. When you later see him without

624
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:47,400
Speaker 11: the backpack on, there is no there is no similar shadow.

625
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 11: So you can extrapolate from that that you know he

626
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 11: may have had tools either to gain access or to

627
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:58,960
Speaker 11: destroy that light, which we know was indeed destroyed on

628
00:38:59,000 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 11: that side of the house.

629
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:02,840
Speaker 1: So how does that fit into the accomplished theory.

630
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 11: Yeah, that's he's passing off that equipment after he's done

631
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:10,239
Speaker 11: with it, either storing it in a car because you know,

632
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 11: now it's pitch black out in front of the house.

633
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 11: You're not just going to leave the backpack and the

634
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:17,360
Speaker 11: pitch black on the ground.

635
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:21,400
Speaker 2: You know, Brian's Gibbons. That's really astute.

636
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:25,320
Speaker 1: Let me keep looking at this while Brian talks, because

637
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 1: I want to. I want everyone to see what he's

638
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 1: talking about. You're right, when he walks up, there is

639
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 1: the shadow. You can see that that bright nightlight is on,

640
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 1: and it's not just his bite light, it's lit up

641
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:44,319
Speaker 1: behind it, behind the biite light as well. Okay, then

642
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 1: as you look later without the backpack, everything's dark. I

643
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:55,799
Speaker 1: don't believe he climbed up and got and dismantled that

644
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:57,240
Speaker 1: night light on his own.

645
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:00,760
Speaker 2: That's a really good point.

646
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:07,280
Speaker 1: Joining me, Doctor Michelle Joy, forensic clinical academic psychiatrist, author

647
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 1: of The Schmuck in my Office. You can find her

648
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:13,520
Speaker 1: at wes Philly Morbid Art. Doctor Michelle, thank you for

649
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 1: being with us.

650
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 2: What do you make the.

651
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:20,920
Speaker 1: Psychological evaluation of whether he had an accomplice?

652
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 2: Did he do this all on his own. I think.

653
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:30,239
Speaker 13: There's a lot to be garnered from the video, as

654
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 13: the other people interviewed so far have said, But I

655
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:37,360
Speaker 13: think that what makes the most sense to me is

656
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 13: his lack of factyleness with everything, right. I know, that's

657
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 13: exactly that gun there. Previously, some former FBI agents had

658
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 13: spoken about just his lack of expertise with carrying a firearm.

659
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 13: It's kind of polstered in front of him and waving

660
00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:00,800
Speaker 13: around and things like this. So I think that his

661
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:05,360
Speaker 13: lack of sophistication makes me agree with the previous person

662
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:10,200
Speaker 13: that was interviewed, was that there's someone else directing most

663
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:14,279
Speaker 13: likely this because the if being this bumbling as we've

664
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 13: used the word so far, just at the intro to

665
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:19,840
Speaker 13: the scene, you wouldn't think that he would have coordinated,

666
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:23,520
Speaker 13: you know, anything successful enough to not only have this

667
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:27,920
Speaker 13: person and when I say successfully, obviously tragically successfully to

668
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:30,759
Speaker 13: you know, be able to extract her and to have

669
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 13: her you know, disappear for this long. It just seems

670
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:39,239
Speaker 13: like something would have gone wrong from his perspective, you know,

671
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:40,760
Speaker 13: being a lone actor.

672
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 1: Now there is the specter of Mexican cartel involvement. But

673
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:50,880
Speaker 1: after speaking to Border patrol officers and experts in the area.

674
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:52,880
Speaker 2: I don't buy it.

675
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 1: Cartels usually target people within Mexico. Can anybody on this

676
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 1: panel name a single US citizen taken from the US

677
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 1: by the cartels? Obviously no. So I've noticed in cartail

678
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 1: schemes they typically correspond to local events, local extortion plots,

679
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 1: business dealings, drug issues. To Brian Fitzgibbons, do you agree

680
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:26,359
Speaker 1: or disagree you have rescued people out of Mexico. Does

681
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 1: this have any resemblance to a cartail job?

682
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 11: Not at all, Nancy. The primary reason is, just like

683
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 11: you said, this is a US citizen, high profile and nature.

684
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:43,840
Speaker 11: This is going to draw an incredible amount of and

685
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 11: it has drawn an incredible amount of media attention and

686
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:50,719
Speaker 11: an incredible amount of unwanted attention to the cartel from

687
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 11: the US federal government. The second point that I'm going

688
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:59,400
Speaker 11: to make is all the hallmarks of a typical cartel

689
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:04,280
Speaker 11: rants and kidnapping, kidnapping, ransom operation are not being met here.

690
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:08,160
Speaker 11: There would be a clear and sophistic clear and sophisticated

691
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 11: way to pay. They would want to be able to

692
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 11: cash out easily and make that process very seamless. This

693
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:19,000
Speaker 11: doesn't meet any of those criteria.

694
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:23,360
Speaker 1: You know, when it comes to Mexico, Brianvsgibbons, let's just

695
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 1: pretend for one moment that she has been moved to Mexico.

696
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 1: That's not playing into all the crazies, any cartel theories.

697
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:35,319
Speaker 1: But if she has been moved to Mexico, what do

698
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 1: you do to extract someone out of Mexico. We know

699
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:44,359
Speaker 1: that the FEDS are accessing iph Emilia, which is the

700
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:49,439
Speaker 1: Mexican equivalent of our DNA databank CODIS, although it's used

701
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:53,080
Speaker 1: mostly for identifying bodies in murder cases.

702
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:56,280
Speaker 2: Also, of course, they're.

703
00:43:56,080 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 1: Looking internationally at Interpol databases. I think good news is

704
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 1: that they are looking at the Arizona database, which is

705
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 1: a lot less stringent. You get more information. For instance,

706
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 1: suspects are in there, not pristine DNA DNA.

707
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:15,719
Speaker 2: Mixtures are in there.

708
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 1: The CODAS data Bank would not allow everything that is

709
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:22,800
Speaker 1: allowed in the Arizona DNA data.

710
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:24,880
Speaker 2: Bank, and that's good for this case.

711
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:28,319
Speaker 1: That's good for the Arizona search because you've got a

712
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 1: wider pull, just over half a million profiles in the

713
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:35,960
Speaker 1: Arizona databank. But back to Mexico, how would you extract

714
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 1: someone from Mexico.

715
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:41,320
Speaker 11: Yeah, you know, you first need to understand that Mexico

716
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:46,400
Speaker 11: is a very non permissible environment, especially to search for

717
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:50,439
Speaker 11: a missing foreign national. This is for a few reasons. One,

718
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:55,480
Speaker 11: the levels of local government corruption in Mexico are almost

719
00:44:55,560 --> 00:45:03,880
Speaker 11: unfathomable to a typical American. Second, wide swaths of territory

720
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 11: are primarily primarily controlled by cartels. That's both from a

721
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 11: physical security perspective and from a political perspective. And that

722
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 11: all leads me to say that the public, especially with

723
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 11: such a high profile case, will will lack an urgency

724
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:27,439
Speaker 11: or willingness to be involved in this search for fear

725
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:31,279
Speaker 11: of reprisals. You know, whether or not the cartel is

726
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:34,239
Speaker 11: or is not involved, they do control these areas, so

727
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 11: the public will be very apprehensive to participate in this.

728
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:40,879
Speaker 11: And that that all leads me to say that any

729
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:45,400
Speaker 11: search in Mexico that's going to be have a positive

730
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:50,200
Speaker 11: result is going to come through US federal government diplomatic channels.

731
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 11: That that is the number one main effort in any

732
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:56,680
Speaker 11: search taking place in Mexico.

733
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 1: Thoma Smith and joining US former NYPD to detective worked

734
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:06,439
Speaker 1: in homicide, was with the Joint Terrorism Task Force now

735
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:13,520
Speaker 1: Star Goal Shields podcast, Tom the ransom letters, if if

736
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:17,719
Speaker 1: they are connected, how could this idgit who's trying to

737
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 1: put reaches down and grabs a clump of plants to

738
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:22,120
Speaker 1: put over.

739
00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:24,360
Speaker 2: The doorcam.

740
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 1: How could that guy write a very eloquent, well worded,

741
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:33,640
Speaker 1: well crafted ransom note. Let's see the guy here, he

742
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 1: goes there, that's the ticket. I'll grab these plants. Yeah, okay,

743
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 1: that's not working. I don't see it being the same person, Tom, and.

744
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:46,840
Speaker 14: I'm not I was never ever sold on the ransom

745
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:50,520
Speaker 14: notes that I was sent to TAMZ. Never because of

746
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 14: the time frame that it took to get them. Kidnappers

747
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:56,879
Speaker 14: don't work that way, Nancy. They grabbed their target, they

748
00:46:56,920 --> 00:46:59,799
Speaker 14: set up what they want, who are they going to contact,

749
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:03,719
Speaker 14: and it's done quickly because the longer that kidnappers have

750
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:07,160
Speaker 14: their victims with them, it gives law enforcement a quicker

751
00:47:07,239 --> 00:47:10,400
Speaker 14: time and a shorter time span to track them down.

752
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:15,360
Speaker 14: Kidnappings are done quickly. And on your other point, I

753
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:19,160
Speaker 14: don't think this was done by himself at all. Kidnappings

754
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:23,280
Speaker 14: are usually never done by one person, whether there's someone

755
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:26,440
Speaker 14: sitting in a car or standing and looking around as

756
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:29,800
Speaker 14: a lookout, but there is someone else in that area.

757
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:33,399
Speaker 14: Helping him to carry someone out and get someone out

758
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:38,960
Speaker 14: of a house, even remotely resisting is very, very difficult

759
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 14: for one person to do, and then try to get

760
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:45,960
Speaker 14: them into a vehicle is a monumental task. And I

761
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:48,400
Speaker 14: never thought this was done by one person. And I

762
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:49,000
Speaker 14: still don't.

763
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:53,880
Speaker 1: You know, I am projecting, which is not helpful when

764
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:57,680
Speaker 1: you're trying to try a case that tom My Mom

765
00:47:58,160 --> 00:47:58,680
Speaker 1: lives with us.

766
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:02,680
Speaker 2: She's ninety four, and when you try to pick her up,

767
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:03,560
Speaker 2: it's dead weight.

768
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 15: When you try to help her walk, very often, I'll

769
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 15: just get her to sit on her walker and I

770
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 15: will wheel her wherever we're going, because it is so

771
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 15: hard to manage her. It's like two giant tall kitchen

772
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:25,279
Speaker 15: trash bags full of sand, and they go this way

773
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 15: and that way, and you're trying to drag them.

774
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 2: It's hard.

775
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:33,759
Speaker 1: We know that she was upright. We believe she was

776
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:37,680
Speaker 1: upright when she first came out the door, because those

777
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 1: blood drops are clearly low velocity droplets, and if you

778
00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:47,560
Speaker 1: study them, you see that in one spot there are

779
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:50,759
Speaker 1: a couple, which means she was standing still, unable to

780
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:52,880
Speaker 1: go forward to standing there. I don't know if she's

781
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:55,359
Speaker 1: trying to get her balance, but she stood there and

782
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:58,040
Speaker 1: several droplets fell. In one place there was kind of

783
00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:00,080
Speaker 1: a satellite dropping.

784
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:01,160
Speaker 2: A grouping.

785
00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:06,320
Speaker 1: That said, I think someone had to help her out

786
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:07,920
Speaker 1: the front door.

787
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:10,320
Speaker 2: And that's not a one man job.

788
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:15,680
Speaker 16: Agree, disagree, absolutely not, absolutely not, and listen if she

789
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:18,759
Speaker 16: had any thought in her head. We tell you know

790
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:22,400
Speaker 16: people who might be abducted, even children, all right, Even

791
00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:26,000
Speaker 16: kids drop down to the ground and become dead weight.

792
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:29,879
Speaker 16: Even a ten twelve year old kid that's laying down

793
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:32,400
Speaker 16: on the ground is hard to pick up and get somewhere,

794
00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:36,200
Speaker 16: much less an eighty four year old woman. It's very difficult,

795
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 16: and I don't think it's possible. And I am in

796
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:41,520
Speaker 16: total agreement with you that this was definitely more than

797
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:42,080
Speaker 16: one person.

798
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:50,080
Speaker 1: Reminder, there is over a one million dollar reward in place.

799
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:53,920
Speaker 1: If you know or think you know anything about the

800
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:57,920
Speaker 1: disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, please dial toll free eight hundred

801
00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:01,360
Speaker 1: two two five five three two four repeat eight hundred

802
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 1: two two five five three two four, or if you

803
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:08,719
Speaker 1: wish to remain anonymous, five to zero eight eight two

804
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:13,279
Speaker 1: seven four sixty three repeat five two zero eight eight

805
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:17,759
Speaker 1: two seven four sixty three I want to thank all

806
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 1: of our guests for being with us tonight believe it

807
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:24,880
Speaker 1: or not, Day thirty one of this investigation. But I

808
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:27,400
Speaker 1: especially want to thank you for being with us and

809
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:35,000
Speaker 1: joining the investigation. Remember we are scouring Twitter, X, Insta,

810
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:39,440
Speaker 1: Facebook and reading your ideas and your tips.

811
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 2: Please keep them coming.

812
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:50,680
Speaker 1: Betsy Grace signing off for tonight, and remember what Savannah said,

813
00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:52,200
Speaker 1: pray without cease.

814
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:53,920
Speaker 2: Good night,