WEBVTT - Vaccine Hesitancy and Refusal 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:03.240 This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Carol Masser. Every day 0:00:03.279 --> 0:00:05.200 we're bringing you the latest news from the world's of 0:00:05.200 --> 0:00:08.920 business and finance, plus technology, politics. So much going on 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:12.160 in the world of politics, economics, and it's all harnessing 0:00:12.160 --> 0:00:14.960 the power of Business Week reporters and editors. You can 0:00:15.040 --> 0:00:18.720 download Bloomberg Business Week on iTunes, SoundCloud, or Bloomberg dot com. 0:00:18.960 --> 0:00:21.000 If you can also listen to our radio show at 0:00:21.000 --> 0:00:23.759 two pm Eastern on Bloomberg Radio and be sure to 0:00:23.760 --> 0:00:27.040 watch us too on YouTube by searching Bloomberg Global News. 0:00:27.200 --> 0:00:30.120 New York City's mayor getting ready uh two looks like 0:00:30.720 --> 0:00:33.680 halt indoor dining. He says, it's just a matter of time. 0:00:33.720 --> 0:00:37.360 We also have US COVID hospitalizations near eighty thousand as 0:00:37.440 --> 0:00:40.800 records are toppled daily, And then we also had on 0:00:40.840 --> 0:00:44.239 the flip side, moderna vaccine production. It's gearing up that 0:00:44.280 --> 0:00:47.840 according to its partner and Oxford to study confirming it's 0:00:47.880 --> 0:00:52.239 astra Zeneca COVID shot response in elderly specifically, there's been 0:00:52.240 --> 0:00:54.160 a lot of the kind of yin and yang when 0:00:54.160 --> 0:00:56.880 it comes to COVID nineteen news this week, let's talk 0:00:56.960 --> 0:00:59.720 about it. Dr Daniel Salmon is Director of the Institute 0:00:59.720 --> 0:01:03.120 for Eccine Safety and Professor of International Health at the 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:06.160 Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health. The Johns Hopkins 0:01:06.200 --> 0:01:09.040 Bloomberg School of Public House supported by Michael R. Bloomberg, Founder, 0:01:09.120 --> 0:01:12.560 Bloomberg LP, and Bloomberg Philanthropies. Dr Salomon joins us on 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:14.840 the phone from Baltimore. Good afternoon. Nice to have you 0:01:14.920 --> 0:01:18.280 here at Good afternoon. Thanks for having me. So, tell 0:01:18.280 --> 0:01:19.920 me a little bit about when you look at the headlines, 0:01:19.959 --> 0:01:22.080 I do feel like it's you know, a step forward 0:01:22.240 --> 0:01:24.319 as a couple of steps back, and when it comes 0:01:24.360 --> 0:01:27.360 to progress on a vaccine, but we know that's still 0:01:27.360 --> 0:01:28.840 going to take a while. And then of course we 0:01:28.880 --> 0:01:31.640 continue to see the numbers going up here in the 0:01:31.720 --> 0:01:34.280 United States and really globally. How would you assess the 0:01:34.319 --> 0:01:39.040 situation at this point, Well, from an issue of COVID disease, 0:01:39.120 --> 0:01:42.600 I mean, we're seeing huge amounts of disease, and as 0:01:42.640 --> 0:01:46.280 you've described in your preamble, there's you know, increases in 0:01:46.360 --> 0:01:50.640 hospitalization solve really concerning and uh, it's likely to get 0:01:50.680 --> 0:01:53.800 worse before it gets better, you know. The vaccine side, well, 0:01:53.840 --> 0:01:56.280 it seems to be good news but their press releases, 0:01:56.360 --> 0:01:59.200 this is based on so very very few people have 0:01:59.240 --> 0:02:01.960 seen the data. I haven't seen the data, and the 0:02:02.080 --> 0:02:04.920 press releases sound great, but we really need to see 0:02:04.920 --> 0:02:07.240 the data. We need to see how effective it is 0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:10.720 among whom and what exactly is effective in is it 0:02:10.840 --> 0:02:15.800 preventing any disease? Is preventing serious disease? Does the effectivenesssary 0:02:15.919 --> 0:02:20.720 by population? Doesn't prevent transmission of disease? And presumably the 0:02:20.800 --> 0:02:23.760 safety profile looks good if they wouldn't or they wouldn't 0:02:23.800 --> 0:02:25.760 have put out a press release. But so we really 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:27.359 need to see the data. I mean this is these 0:02:27.360 --> 0:02:29.760 are press releases. Yeah, well, I think that is like 0:02:29.760 --> 0:02:33.480 a brilliant point because listen, they are most of them 0:02:33.480 --> 0:02:35.480 publicly health companies. I think all of them are publicly 0:02:35.480 --> 0:02:37.880 health companies, and so they can't certainly make statements that 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:41.880 might financially alter what investors see or you know, if 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:43.880 they promised too much so and so forth. Right, there's 0:02:43.960 --> 0:02:46.040 rules when it comes to putting this stuff out. But 0:02:46.080 --> 0:02:48.880 as you say, data is data, there's a lot of 0:02:48.960 --> 0:02:51.160 data that we are still we've collected but still need 0:02:51.200 --> 0:02:54.600 to collect. When it comes to COVID nineteen, it's impact 0:02:54.720 --> 0:02:59.079 on different populations, but also how you treat different populations 0:02:59.080 --> 0:03:04.519 and how those treatment you know, impact different populations. Yeah, 0:03:04.560 --> 0:03:07.079 so I think that's all true. And likewise, there's a 0:03:07.120 --> 0:03:09.400 lot of data on these vaccines that we haven't seen. 0:03:09.840 --> 0:03:12.120 I mean, when we evaluate a vaccine, it's not based 0:03:12.160 --> 0:03:15.560 on press releases. So the next step is that FDA 0:03:15.720 --> 0:03:18.919 has an advisory committee called bur PACK, the Vaccines and 0:03:19.000 --> 0:03:22.960 Related Biologic Product Advisory Committee, and these data are going 0:03:23.040 --> 0:03:24.679 to go in front of a pack and you're gonna 0:03:24.760 --> 0:03:29.160 have external, independent scientists that are really going to carefully 0:03:29.200 --> 0:03:32.200 review the data and then make a recommendation f d 0:03:32.360 --> 0:03:36.480 A and those meetings are open to available to the public. 0:03:37.080 --> 0:03:40.680 And that's a really important step because that's an opportunity 0:03:40.800 --> 0:03:44.360 for the scientific and the clinical community to see the 0:03:44.480 --> 0:03:47.640 data and to have independent experts wig in on it. 0:03:48.200 --> 0:03:50.480 And it's also a chance for the public to see 0:03:50.480 --> 0:03:54.120 how this all works and based their views not on 0:03:54.760 --> 0:03:58.440 things they meet on the internet or or press releases, 0:03:58.520 --> 0:04:02.880 but by having signed it take or that's transparent after 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:04.600 go ahead. No, I was gonna say, you know, and 0:04:04.640 --> 0:04:05.920 I've said this a couple of times on our air, 0:04:05.960 --> 0:04:07.839 that we you know, as a public are are seeing 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:10.880 how this problem. Normally, yeah, yeah, we hear about a 0:04:10.960 --> 0:04:13.680 drug and it's approved and it's years of testing, and 0:04:13.720 --> 0:04:15.480 we don't really pay as much attention right until the 0:04:15.520 --> 0:04:17.840 doctor says, here, here's a prescription for x y Z. 0:04:18.240 --> 0:04:22.000 But we are really learning and seeing this process. I 0:04:22.040 --> 0:04:23.520 want to dig a little bit deeper. I mean in 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:26.200 terms of the data specifically, what is it that you're 0:04:26.240 --> 0:04:29.159 going to be looking for. Well, I'm going to be 0:04:29.200 --> 0:04:33.080 looking at what outcomes were examined and what the efficacy 0:04:33.360 --> 0:04:36.800 was for those outcomes. So I'm interested in, for example, 0:04:37.279 --> 0:04:42.160 did it prevent disease altogether or did it prevent clinical disease, 0:04:42.839 --> 0:04:46.640 and what's the difference between that. What's the difference. Well, 0:04:46.680 --> 0:04:49.279 we know with COVID that lots of people have sent 0:04:49.600 --> 0:04:53.080 don't have symptoms, but have disease, right, and that's why 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:57.560 the mass recommendation changed. Um, many infectious diseases, you're not 0:04:57.680 --> 0:05:02.000 infectious to other people until you have symptoms. So initially 0:05:02.000 --> 0:05:04.880 the recommendations were if you don't feel good, stay at home, 0:05:05.400 --> 0:05:07.120 which makes a lot of sense. But then when we 0:05:07.200 --> 0:05:11.479 discovered you have people that have disease and transmit disease, 0:05:12.120 --> 0:05:14.840 but they don't have any symptoms. That's when the mass 0:05:14.880 --> 0:05:18.640 recommendation came in, because if staying at home when you 0:05:18.680 --> 0:05:22.240 feel sick isn't enough. And so whether or not the 0:05:22.320 --> 0:05:27.360 vaccine prevents subclinical disease is important. Um doesn't prevent more 0:05:27.400 --> 0:05:30.920 serious disease, and if so, maybe maybe even more so 0:05:31.000 --> 0:05:35.880 than it prevents disease. I mean, they're talking effectiveness. That's 0:05:35.960 --> 0:05:39.800 very good, But there are vaccines, like for the flu, 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:44.320 where it's moderately effective in preventing influenza, but it's even 0:05:44.400 --> 0:05:49.000 better at preventing serious disease. That's important. And how long 0:05:49.000 --> 0:05:52.560 does that protection last, that's a really important question. We're 0:05:52.560 --> 0:05:53.960 not going to know. We're not going to know for 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:56.359 a while. I actually cut up with the Modern CEO 0:05:56.480 --> 0:05:59.880 earlier today for a Bloomberg panel and Bloomberg event, and 0:06:00.360 --> 0:06:02.000 you know, he did point out that he said what 0:06:02.040 --> 0:06:04.840 was significant about their developments was that it was for 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:09.880 you know, kind of your more serious cases of COVID. Yeah, so, 0:06:10.200 --> 0:06:14.400 I mean that's important, that's helpful. My preference would be 0:06:14.480 --> 0:06:19.320 a vaccine that prevents all disease and therefore prevents any 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:23.400 transmission of disease, and you get one or two shots 0:06:23.400 --> 0:06:26.760 and it lasts forever um. That's a very high standard 0:06:26.760 --> 0:06:31.200 and doubts any vaccine all of that. Mr Salmon, you 0:06:31.240 --> 0:06:36.560 know you you know about obviously vaccine development, you understand distribution, 0:06:36.600 --> 0:06:40.760 you understand safety, the process that we're happening, even though 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:43.720 it's happening much more quickly. Do you feel comfortable about it? 0:06:43.760 --> 0:06:47.480 Do you have confidence in it? Yeah, that's a great question, 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:49.800 and I'm really glad you're asking it because I do. 0:06:50.400 --> 0:06:52.680 And I think there's a lot of this number out 0:06:52.680 --> 0:06:56.520 there because it's called operation warp speed and it's happening 0:06:56.560 --> 0:07:00.640 so quickly that that somehow safety is being short and 0:07:00.680 --> 0:07:04.240 that's not the case. These are very large clinical trials 0:07:04.440 --> 0:07:08.320 and as long as the process continues using our normal 0:07:08.600 --> 0:07:13.280 mechanisms and having external review, I'm very comfortable with the process. 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:16.040 And it's it's important that people understand this. And I 0:07:16.080 --> 0:07:18.880 think what's also important you started talking about it before 0:07:19.640 --> 0:07:21.760 before the break, you talked about you know, when you 0:07:22.120 --> 0:07:24.640 evaluate a vaccine, you go, you know, it's not on 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:27.640 the press releases that there will be independent scientists right 0:07:27.680 --> 0:07:30.760 who are going to review this. They will ultimately make recommendations. 0:07:30.960 --> 0:07:33.520 It's not just the company data correct it's not just 0:07:33.640 --> 0:07:39.000 government officials. I mean there are outside independent right. Yeah, 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:40.640 I'm sorry you cut out for a second. I thought 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:43.400 you you paused. Um, it's a really important point. And 0:07:43.480 --> 0:07:47.000 we talked about the verpack and FDAs advisory committee, but 0:07:47.200 --> 0:07:50.760 CDC has an advisory committee to that has evolved. Once 0:07:51.040 --> 0:07:54.400 FDA gives approval for use UM and then goes to 0:07:54.440 --> 0:07:57.600 the CDC and they turned to their advisory committee on 0:07:57.640 --> 0:08:00.720 Immunization Practice, and they look at all the data and 0:08:00.760 --> 0:08:04.120 they make recommendations for who should get the vaccine, if 0:08:04.160 --> 0:08:07.560 anybody is contraindicated and they shouldn't get it, and how 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:11.880 many doses, and what what spacing, and where the prioritization is, 0:08:11.920 --> 0:08:14.360 who should get it first, and all of that, again 0:08:14.480 --> 0:08:18.280 is done by independent scientists, and it's done with transparency. 0:08:18.360 --> 0:08:21.320 Those meetings are open to the public. Now, these advisory 0:08:21.360 --> 0:08:25.360 committees don't make the decision. They make recommendations, and it's 0:08:25.440 --> 0:08:28.320 up to the agencies, the FDA or the CDC to 0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:32.160 accept those decisions, which they usually do. So this is 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:34.640 a process that's been around for a long time and 0:08:34.679 --> 0:08:37.439 it has a long track history of working well and 0:08:37.480 --> 0:08:40.840 making sure that vaccines that are used widely are very 0:08:40.840 --> 0:08:44.320 safe and at least reasonably effective, that the benefits outweigh 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:48.000 the risk for those populations that are recommended. So you're 0:08:48.040 --> 0:08:50.160 asking me if I'm comfortable. I'm saying I am, as 0:08:50.200 --> 0:08:52.160 long as it goes through this process, which it is, 0:08:52.720 --> 0:08:54.880 and the public needs to see this. The public needs 0:08:54.920 --> 0:08:58.000 to see that these are decisions that are made on 0:08:58.200 --> 0:09:03.280 evidence and science and viewed by external experts to be fair. 0:09:03.559 --> 0:09:06.160 And I just because you understand this a whole lot 0:09:06.200 --> 0:09:10.280 more than I do. Um, the the process has gone 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:14.600 from a decade to essentially a year right before you know, 0:09:14.640 --> 0:09:16.280 give or take a few months or so before it 0:09:16.320 --> 0:09:19.679 kind of rolls out to everyone. What is the risk 0:09:20.200 --> 0:09:24.040 in that you don't have maybe ten years of study, 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:27.040 or you don't have years after someone's been given a 0:09:27.120 --> 0:09:30.920 vaccine to kind of track what the longer term impact is. 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:33.840 Do we need to be at least a little cautious 0:09:33.840 --> 0:09:36.640 about something like that? Well, I think we need to 0:09:36.640 --> 0:09:40.160 be very cautious about everything, and a lot of the 0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:43.040 ways that this is speed had been sped up doesn't 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:47.000 cause any concerns. Scientifically, we did very large studies of 0:09:47.080 --> 0:09:50.599 multiple products at the same time, and we put tremendous 0:09:50.640 --> 0:09:54.480 resources into recruiting people for those studies. So the fact 0:09:54.520 --> 0:09:57.000 that that's done faster, as long as it's done well, 0:09:57.480 --> 0:10:00.120 it's fine. One of the biggest ways that we've of 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:04.000 time is that the vaccine has been manufactured prior to 0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:06.880 the results of the phase three studies. That is a 0:10:06.920 --> 0:10:10.920 big financial risk. Normally, you see the results of phase 0:10:10.920 --> 0:10:15.480 three studies and if it looks good, you build manufacturing capacity. 0:10:15.960 --> 0:10:19.400 In this case, that capacity was built earlier, so there's 0:10:19.480 --> 0:10:22.160 financial risk there, but there's not risk of there being 0:10:22.200 --> 0:10:24.760 a problem. If the vaccine turns out to be not 0:10:26.040 --> 0:10:29.599 suitable for use, then you've wasted all that money, but 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:33.240 you haven't hurt anybody. So these these processes I think 0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:37.000 are very solid. Um. One of the questions you asked was, well, 0:10:37.040 --> 0:10:40.200 what about something that has a long term safety problem? 0:10:40.400 --> 0:10:43.560 And you know right now the standard is that people 0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:45.840 have to have been studied for at least sixty days, 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:50.600 and most adverse reactions that happened after a vaccine happened 0:10:50.600 --> 0:10:53.520 in the first sixty days. But there is some possibility 0:10:53.559 --> 0:10:56.560 if it's something that took six months to develop, Well, 0:10:56.600 --> 0:10:58.400 you're not going to find that out until you wait, 0:10:58.880 --> 0:11:02.000 so at the end, you have to balance risks and benefits, 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:06.480 and known risks and known benefits. And we're, as you've described, 0:11:06.520 --> 0:11:10.520 in the pandemic situation where disease is increasing quickly, the 0:11:10.559 --> 0:11:14.360 hospitalizations are increasing, and pretty soon the deaths are going 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:17.760 to start increasing. Economy has had major hits, so you 0:11:17.840 --> 0:11:21.240 have to make the decision based on the best developble evidence. 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:24.880 What matters is that the science is driving the decisions, 0:11:24.880 --> 0:11:28.760 that it's free from politics, free from other factors, that 0:11:28.840 --> 0:11:31.240 this is evidence based decisions. We're gonna leave it on 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:32.800 that note, because that's a great way to wrap it up. 0:11:33.000 --> 0:11:36.440 Dr Salmon, Thank you so much, greatly appreciated. Dr Daniel Salmon, 0:11:36.760 --> 0:11:39.280 Director of the Institute for Vaccine Safety and Professor of 0:11:39.320 --> 0:11:42.640 International Health at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health. 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:48.040 This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer from Bloomberg Radio. Well, 0:11:48.080 --> 0:11:50.840 this is among our most read stories, uh and it's 0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:53.080 one reporter for Bloomberg Business Week. It's about something that 0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:54.720 we were all trying to get back in the spring. 0:11:54.720 --> 0:11:57.600 We're talking about lisol and how there seems to be 0:11:57.640 --> 0:12:00.000 more than ever but guess what, it's still not enough 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:02.760 for the US. So let's get into it with Bloomberg 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:04.320 Business WEE get it or Joe Webber. He's on the 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:07.240 access line from Brooklyn, also with US Bloomberg News team 0:12:07.280 --> 0:12:10.120 leader for US Healthcare. He wrote it. Drew Armstrong. He's 0:12:10.160 --> 0:12:13.040 on the phone in New York City, Joel, I gotta 0:12:13.040 --> 0:12:14.760 tell you back in the spring, I could not get 0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:18.240 Lisolf for nothing. Yeah, you weren't alone. I don't think 0:12:18.240 --> 0:12:20.160 anybody else could. And when you could, when you did 0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:22.679 see it, you you know, immediately hoarded it and it 0:12:22.760 --> 0:12:25.760 was one of the great hoarding items. Um. And you know, 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:28.120 back then, there were a couple of stories like that 0:12:28.120 --> 0:12:30.320 that I was really interested in. And you know, one 0:12:30.440 --> 0:12:32.679 was three m you know, how do you make how 0:12:32.720 --> 0:12:36.199 do you make more? In masks? Yesterday? And we did 0:12:36.240 --> 0:12:38.319 that one as a cover story, and the lights on 0:12:38.440 --> 0:12:41.120 one just stuck with me because I was like, boy, 0:12:41.360 --> 0:12:45.640 I'm really curious how you make more Lisol? And Drew 0:12:45.720 --> 0:12:48.840 Armstrong actually happened to have that same kind of urge 0:12:48.880 --> 0:12:52.080 and came back with a fully realized story that is 0:12:52.120 --> 0:12:56.000 one of my favorites from sort of pandemic times, Drew, 0:12:56.040 --> 0:12:59.640 how do you make more Lisol? So, yeah, I start 0:12:59.720 --> 0:13:03.080 ask that question, UM earlier this year, you know, for 0:13:03.120 --> 0:13:05.520 exactly the same reason you guys, because I couldn't find 0:13:05.559 --> 0:13:10.520 it anywhere. And you know this company that makes a record, 0:13:10.679 --> 0:13:12.800 UM Ben Keyser. It's a London company. They are a 0:13:12.800 --> 0:13:15.880 big consumer conglomerate. And one of the things you find 0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:18.960 from UM reading about this is that you know, there's 0:13:19.000 --> 0:13:21.640 this massive company with huge resources, but you know, they 0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:25.840 have this relatively thin, delicate supply chain that's stretched all 0:13:25.840 --> 0:13:28.360 over the US and all over the world. And when 0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:31.800 the pandemic really you know, did two things. One just 0:13:31.840 --> 0:13:35.760 put their demand through the roof for this product, but 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:39.839 to you know, just absolutely upset all of the kind 0:13:39.840 --> 0:13:42.080 of global trade and even the U. S trade and 0:13:42.160 --> 0:13:43.839 you know, all the kind of things that you need 0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:46.680 to make stuff in a factory in the world that 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:49.680 we live in. It it really jumbled their world. And 0:13:49.720 --> 0:13:51.840 so they were they were great about opening the door 0:13:52.040 --> 0:13:55.079 and telling us, you know how they did everything from 0:13:55.120 --> 0:13:59.920 like flying seven seven full of chemicals from Europe to 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:02.640 the US as they can make more whites and lightsol 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:06.120 spray UM. At one point they were starting to run 0:14:06.120 --> 0:14:08.920 out of ethanol, which is one of the main ingredients 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:11.960 of Lysol. So it happened that Americans weren't driving as 0:14:12.000 --> 0:14:13.920 much because they were all staying home. And ethanol the 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:18.200 important gasoline additive. So they retooled a ethanol plant in 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:22.000 Nebraska and makes ethanol for gasoline and just shipped Twane 0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:25.000 cars with these, you know, thirty thousand gallons tanks of 0:14:25.000 --> 0:14:29.240 ethanol to their factory in New Jersey. It's just fascinating 0:14:29.240 --> 0:14:31.720 to hear about all the things that they did in 0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:34.200 order to, you know, keep this stuff blowing and still 0:14:34.360 --> 0:14:35.720 have not been at all. This is one of the 0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:37.480 stories man, You know, you could just sit down and 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:40.280 talk about for a long time because it's just interesting 0:14:40.280 --> 0:14:42.240 facets something we take for granted, right, but you really 0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:44.240 dug into kind of the nuts and bolts of it. 0:14:44.600 --> 0:14:46.120 Tell us though, and I have to say, on our 0:14:46.120 --> 0:14:48.360 planning call this morning, we were all getting into it. 0:14:48.600 --> 0:14:52.560 Tell us about Mr Lysol and Flushing Meadows. Sure. So 0:14:52.840 --> 0:14:56.120 there's a guy at a record called Joe Robino. He 0:14:56.160 --> 0:14:59.280 has been he has worked on Lysol for thirty five 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:04.360 some years through its previous owners. He's a microbiologist. Um, 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:06.800 you know, there's a there's a little red banner on 0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:11.840 the Lysol can which says kills nine percent of germs. 0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:14.360 And you know that's that clings. Everyone has to look 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:16.880 at the chloroxy does everybody makes the same claim. But 0:15:16.920 --> 0:15:19.440 they were actually the first people to do the research 0:15:19.600 --> 0:15:22.800 to show that. And one of the things that they did, 0:15:23.040 --> 0:15:25.640 um in the early days of this product back in 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:28.600 the in the very early sorry how did the early product, 0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:30.080 but back in kind of his early on in his 0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:32.640 career in the early nineties, they would do stuff like 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:37.880 cope a toy ball with a harmless virus and put 0:15:37.880 --> 0:15:40.280 it into a daycare and they go around swabbing everything 0:15:40.280 --> 0:15:43.520 to figure out, you know, where did this virus go. Um, 0:15:43.520 --> 0:15:45.400 they did the same thing in hotel rooms with people 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:49.080 who had cold. They're really trying to understand the microbiology 0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:51.880 aspects of what their products could kill. And one of 0:15:51.880 --> 0:15:53.920 the things that they studied was, you know, just how 0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:56.960 you know, if you have basically a plateful of you know, 0:15:57.000 --> 0:16:00.280 germs to microbes, you know, viruses or bacteria, how much 0:16:00.440 --> 0:16:03.240 does it actually kill? And you know, he was talking 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:05.360 to me as he was explaining as one of many 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:06.840 conversations we had, he said, well, we had a you 0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:08.720 know a three log or four log or even a 0:16:08.760 --> 0:16:14.400 five log reduction and what that actually means is nine. UM. 0:16:14.440 --> 0:16:16.160 The marketing folks took a look at that and they said, 0:16:16.200 --> 0:16:18.720 people love the idea of we gotta put this on 0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:20.840 the camp um And that's kind of the history of 0:16:20.880 --> 0:16:24.440 where that number comes from and disinfecting. UM. If they 0:16:24.440 --> 0:16:27.040 were the first to make it, now everybody everybody does 0:16:27.080 --> 0:16:28.800 it actually does a lot more than that. But you know, 0:16:28.840 --> 0:16:32.000 there is a tremendous amount of research, quotes, scientific and 0:16:32.040 --> 0:16:35.040 consumer that goes on behind these products. UM to figure 0:16:35.040 --> 0:16:38.920 it out. You mentioned Flushing Meadows, my favorite place in 0:16:39.000 --> 0:16:42.400 this whole story. Say, light Bulb makes a toilet bowl cleaner, 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:45.440 and UM, you know, if you make a toilet bowl cleaner, 0:16:45.480 --> 0:16:48.480 you're always changing and tweaking your product. You're introducing new 0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:52.040 you know, formulations, things like that. You have to test 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:54.000 it and if you sell your toilet bowl cleaner around 0:16:54.040 --> 0:16:56.600 the world, you have to test it in toilets around 0:16:56.600 --> 0:16:59.560 the world. So they have a room. It's Room A 0:16:59.680 --> 0:17:02.640 one five four in Montvale, New Jersey, and there's a 0:17:02.720 --> 0:17:05.320 hundred four toilets brought in from around the world. There's 0:17:05.359 --> 0:17:08.399 a UK road, there's a European Union row, there's an 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:12.280 American row of toilets, there's an Indian row of toilets, 0:17:12.359 --> 0:17:14.600 and they have a back room where they actually replicate 0:17:14.680 --> 0:17:18.359 the water conditions from around the world to match those places, 0:17:18.400 --> 0:17:21.680 and little robotic arms that flush each toilet on kind 0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:24.879 of the you know, typical home schedule of toilet use 0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:27.479 for say, you know the people in the United Kingdom, 0:17:27.760 --> 0:17:29.639 and you'll be standing in this room and all of 0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:33.200 a sudden you'll hear sixteen toilets, you know from France, 0:17:33.280 --> 0:17:36.560 all flush at once. That is how you test toilet 0:17:36.560 --> 0:17:41.240 bowl cleaner. It's really it was a fascinating, fascinating and 0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:44.439 also probably the best photograph we published all year, just 0:17:44.520 --> 0:17:48.240 to see, you know, a testing a testing center of toilets. 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:50.840 I want to bring it back to the flagship product 0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:54.440 though you mentioned um ethanol being one of the main ingredients. 0:17:54.960 --> 0:17:58.720 What are the ingredients that go into lysol? And and 0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:02.760 just like, how did is that whole manufacturing side really 0:18:03.080 --> 0:18:06.119 come together? Because they're producing upwards of a million cans 0:18:06.160 --> 0:18:08.879 a day at this point, right, Yeah, So they have 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:12.199 a plant in a suburb area of New Jersey. They 0:18:12.240 --> 0:18:14.479 actually asked me not to see where it is because 0:18:14.600 --> 0:18:16.960 demand has been so crazy that they were worried that 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:19.960 people would start showing up outside the plant. They don't 0:18:19.960 --> 0:18:21.840 really have a lot of security there or anything like that, 0:18:21.920 --> 0:18:23.920 and they don't want to have to hire it um, 0:18:24.119 --> 0:18:27.480 but they you know, there's a rail there's a rail 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:29.640 siding that runs up to the plant, and these rail 0:18:29.640 --> 0:18:33.000 cars that I mentioned, there's these thirty thousand gallons giant, black, 0:18:33.080 --> 0:18:36.200 hulking rail cars. They drop off a hundred twenty two 0:18:36.400 --> 0:18:40.080 hundred and fifty sorry I think hundred twenty thousand gallons 0:18:40.080 --> 0:18:44.679 of ethanol a day. Ethanol is a solvent. What it 0:18:44.760 --> 0:18:49.000 does with a virus like covid, like the coronavirus, is 0:18:49.040 --> 0:18:52.040 it essentially coronavirus is a little bit of genetic material 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:55.080 in a lipid wrapper o lipid skin. Ethanol gets in 0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:59.720 there essentially tears lipids apart and it renders it inert um. 0:18:59.760 --> 0:19:04.240 There's another chemical called a quat quaternary and aluminium fault 0:19:04.320 --> 0:19:07.240 I believe right. It's another key component. And then after 0:19:07.280 --> 0:19:09.040 that kind of sent they put all this stuff together. 0:19:09.119 --> 0:19:12.240 They call it the juice. They manufacture it, you know, 0:19:12.680 --> 0:19:14.600 met like tens of thousand gallons, thinks. But it goes 0:19:14.640 --> 0:19:16.679 into the cans and a little bit of Chaine as 0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:19.280 a propellant and onto your store. It's pretty amazing. I've 0:19:19.320 --> 0:19:22.119 got to say that we were waiting weeks recently for 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:23.800 some Lisol wipes and when they came in, it was 0:19:23.840 --> 0:19:28.160 like celebration at our house. It's pretty remarkable, UM threw 0:19:28.359 --> 0:19:30.600 only like you can do. It's a great story, UM, 0:19:30.640 --> 0:19:32.480 and everybody should check it out. I'll put it on Twitter. 0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:35.920 Drew Armstrong, team leader for US Healthcare Bloomberg News along 0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:38.480 we Tell Webber, editor of Bloomberg Business Week. Check out 0:19:38.480 --> 0:19:42.080 the new issue a business Week online, on newsstands and 0:19:42.160 --> 0:19:45.520 of course on the Bloomberg. This is Bloomberg Business Week 0:19:45.680 --> 0:19:50.000 with Carol Masser from Bloomberg Radio. There's one company and 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:52.560 stuff that we wanted to bring to your attention, especially 0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:54.679 as we get ready for the holiday shopping season. Just 0:19:54.720 --> 0:19:58.080 around the corner. Macy's had quite a swing today. It 0:19:58.119 --> 0:20:01.040 was down ten percent at its lows, up almost three 0:20:01.080 --> 0:20:03.960 percent at its highs. Right now it's up about two 0:20:04.440 --> 0:20:07.080 in the trade, and that's after the company reported its 0:20:07.200 --> 0:20:10.159 latest quarterly results. Let's get into it with Bloomberg Intelligence 0:20:10.400 --> 0:20:12.800 Senior US Retail Alice put him Goyle. She is with 0:20:12.920 --> 0:20:15.320 us on the phone in New Jersey, Pudham. So nice 0:20:15.320 --> 0:20:18.399 to have you here. How are you? I'm good, Thanks 0:20:18.400 --> 0:20:21.320 for loving me, Harol, Well, good to have you here. Um. 0:20:21.359 --> 0:20:24.320 How's Macy's doing. I can't tell from the trade today 0:20:24.320 --> 0:20:27.000 because it was all over the map, it was, you know. 0:20:27.040 --> 0:20:28.760 I think I think macy Is the story is kind 0:20:28.800 --> 0:20:30.960 of the same with everyone else that has recorded so far, 0:20:31.040 --> 0:20:34.280 where you're seeing a marked improvement from where we were 0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:37.280 in March and April. So you're seeing a progression where 0:20:37.359 --> 0:20:41.000 comps have gotten better, stores have opened, but they're still down. 0:20:41.560 --> 0:20:44.680 That's that digital is on fire. And and we see 0:20:44.680 --> 0:20:47.199 this across the board, not only a Macy's, where digital 0:20:47.200 --> 0:20:51.000 sales they're now representing roughly forty of total fails and 0:20:51.080 --> 0:20:54.959 that's probably going to accelerate over the holidays as stories 0:20:55.040 --> 0:20:58.200 can handle the higher capacity and the viruses. The cases 0:20:58.240 --> 0:21:00.800 are actually rising. So we think digital is where the 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:04.520 focus is right now. Macy's is doing kind of everything 0:21:04.720 --> 0:21:07.240 right really at the moment, I would say to get 0:21:07.320 --> 0:21:10.359