1 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:21,240 Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. A question that is 2 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:25,479 Speaker 1: thrown my way time and time again when people find 3 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: out what I did for a living is Morgan, How 4 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: in the world could you be around the dead so much? 5 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 1: Doesn't it take a toll? My knee jerk reaction is 6 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:37,840 Speaker 1: I don't mind being around the dead. As a matter 7 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 1: of fact, the finality of death is rather peaceful, contrary 8 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: to which you see, you know, and here perhaps it's 9 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:48,280 Speaker 1: not like some movie where you see the dead displaying horror. 10 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: It's the living that trouble me most of the time. 11 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 1: I certainly feel less safe around the living than I 12 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 1: do the dead. It all depends on how you look 13 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 1: at it, and sometimes things are not as they seem. 14 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 1: We're going to be discussing two cases that take place 15 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:12,200 Speaker 1: at the same location, and the level of horror that 16 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: is involved in this would make the strongest of us 17 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:20,039 Speaker 1: shaking our boots. Today. We're going to be discussing a 18 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 1: double homicide where the remains were deposited in an old, 19 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: abandoned burial ground. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is 20 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 1: Body Backs. Dave mac I don't know about you. I'm 21 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:43,040 Speaker 1: not afraid of graveyards and cemeteries. As a matter of fact, 22 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 1: I find them rather peaceful. There's actually beauty in them. 23 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 1: There are a couple of them that I will seek 24 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 1: out during the fall because they're so gorgeous when you 25 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 1: can see the change in the leaves and that sort 26 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: of thing. And of course I'm always going on about 27 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 1: how I am from New Orleans, and you begin to 28 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 1: talk about artistry, and you visit those mausoleums, those graves 29 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: that are all above ground. They're famous for having above 30 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: ground graves because they'll flood if you try to bury 31 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 1: the bodies beneath the ground. They're unbelievably gorgeous. I urge 32 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 1: anybody that ever goes to New Orleans to take a 33 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:20,519 Speaker 1: cemetery tour because it is something to behold the money 34 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 1: that has been invested in these final resting spots. But 35 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 1: this case, that cases actually that we're going to discuss, 36 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 1: involve a place called Mount Moriah, which is kind of 37 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: fascinating because that in the Bible, I think that that's 38 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 1: the location where Abraham took his son Isaac to sacrifice him. 39 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 1: But that's what this cemetery, graveyard burial ground will get into. 40 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 2: That was named we need two body bags, Joe, two 41 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 2: body bags for today. Police were actually looking for Keith Blumbo, 42 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 2: and when they found him, they found another man, David Rizillo, 43 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 2: that they weren't even looking for. So let's back up 44 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 2: and paint this with a very broad brush. The Warlocks 45 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 2: motorcycle club in Philadelphia, according to the National Organization, the 46 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 2: charter for the Warlocks in Philadelphia was being pulled because 47 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 2: they were too violent, just too thuggish. They had too 48 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:17,519 Speaker 2: many street thugs and we're doing things the National Charter 49 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:18,080 Speaker 2: didn't like. 50 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: These are not weakend warriors. These are serious, serious individuals. 51 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 2: But the bottom line is Keith Palombo and David Rizillo 52 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 2: were two guys on the outside looking in when it 53 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 2: comes to the Warlocks. Keith Plombo was a musician, tattoo artist. 54 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 2: He comes from a big family, but a very big 55 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 2: family that's awesomely connected. They talked every day, they messaged 56 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 2: one another. They were in constant contact with each other, 57 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:43,839 Speaker 2: and at Keith Palombo, at the age of thirty six, 58 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 2: still called his mother every day just to make sure 59 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 2: everything was okay. That's how tight this family was. I 60 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 2: mentioned Keith was a well known guitar player in the 61 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 2: Philadelphia area, also well known in the area as a 62 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 2: tattoo artist. Well know how popular tattoos have become in 63 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 2: the last fifteen to twenty years. So when police were 64 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 2: called on February tenth, they were told, we haven't seen 65 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 2: him since February sixth. The interviews start taking place with 66 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 2: family and friends, and that's where police get their first 67 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 2: big tip, and it is when a relative says that 68 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 2: Keith told him, if I ever go missing, start the 69 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 2: search at the cemetery. That basically gives you two options. 70 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:23,720 Speaker 2: Keith knew that the Warlocks used the cemetery as a 71 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 2: dumping ground for people they clipped. That's one. 72 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:26,719 Speaker 3: Option. 73 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 2: Two is that maybe Keith had been threatened with winding 74 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 2: up in the cemetery, and the cemetery in question, by 75 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:35,919 Speaker 2: the way, Mount Mariah Cemetery. As the police are putting 76 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 2: the case together, they have the Warlocks, they have the cemetery. 77 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 2: They've got a missing person, Keith Palumbo. They need that 78 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 2: one missing link and they find it in a woman 79 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 2: by the name of Donna Morelli. Donna Morelli was known 80 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:50,840 Speaker 2: to have close ties to the Warlocks. She was in 81 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 2: a longtime relationship with the former leader of the biker 82 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 2: club Eric Martinsen. He died in twenty fifteen, but she 83 00:04:56,839 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 2: still had direct contact with the Warlocks. Hirelli also lived 84 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 2: right across the street from the cemetery, and by the way, 85 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:08,279 Speaker 2: Donna Morelli is actually a board member of the Friends 86 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 2: of Mount Moriah Cemetery. That's the nonprofit form to clean 87 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 2: and preserve the cemetery after it closed in twenty eleven. 88 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 2: So here is your direct tie between the Warlocks, the cemetery, 89 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,599 Speaker 2: and Keith Palumbo. So the police pay a call on 90 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:24,720 Speaker 2: Donna Morelli. Donna Morelli knows something the police aren't even 91 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,600 Speaker 2: looking for. She knows they're going to find Keith Plumbo. 92 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 2: She knows they're going to find something else too, so 93 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 2: she starts negotiating, and the police use this information to 94 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:38,479 Speaker 2: find out where is the crypt inside the cemetery where 95 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:42,839 Speaker 2: they might find Keith Palumbo. So what happens next, Joe. 96 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 1: There are not too many situations as an investigator where 97 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 1: you're faced with these unusual circumstances where you're literally standing 98 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 1: in the middle of an abandoned graveyard, and within the 99 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: abandoned graveyard, you're actually staring down into a crypt. You 100 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:05,480 Speaker 1: had no idea the crypt was there, and it's just 101 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 1: it's the unusual fact that the police came into this information. 102 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: If anything ever happens to me. Palombo was quoted as saying, 103 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: look in the graveyard, my lord. 104 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:16,159 Speaker 3: They did. 105 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:19,039 Speaker 1: And when you pull the slab back, you're not just 106 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 1: to imagine, if you will, the deepest, darkest, blackest space 107 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 1: that you can possibly imagine. It's obviously windowless. You're talking 108 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 1: about an environment that is completely encased underground in brick 109 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:36,119 Speaker 1: with dirt thrown on top of it. And the dirt 110 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 1: has been compacted for years and years, so there is 111 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 1: not a bit of light getting into this area. The 112 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 1: last time there was any light, and we can only 113 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 1: assume that it may have been starlight or moonlight, was 114 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:51,359 Speaker 1: cast down into this pit was the days that these 115 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: bodies had been cast down in there. Maybe they used 116 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 1: a flashlight. I doubt that they really even cared, because listen, 117 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 1: when it comes to this process and how these bodies 118 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:07,200 Speaker 1: were disposed of, Palombo and Rosello, you said something that 119 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 1: was really key here, Dave. They were tossed away like garbage. 120 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 1: So it's not like when you think about this crypt, 121 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 1: you think about how respectfully the rest of these bodies 122 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: were treated down there. These guys were essentially the top 123 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 1: of the crypt was pulled back and they were dumped 124 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: down in there. So the police are faced with a 125 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: very interesting prospect. First off, how are they going to 126 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: safely get down into this hole? Well, the fire department 127 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 1: shows up and they provide a ladder. There's not a 128 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 1: ladder that would go down in this thing. If there 129 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 1: had been a ladder at some point in time in 130 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 1: order to facilitate these bodies being taken down, it would 131 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 1: have been picked up and removed because keep in mind, 132 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 1: you have to place this large stone slab over this opening, 133 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 1: so there's not like a staircase that's built down that. 134 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 1: There's not a winch system or certainly an elevator or 135 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 1: something like that to facilitate the bodies going down on 136 00:07:59,000 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 1: the ground. 137 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 2: Picture, you get to the bottom and there's a crypt keeper, 138 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 2: just like from TV. Now that all makes sense. How 139 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 2: never understood it? Now I get it. 140 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 1: Crypt Keeper is suddenly is certainly a metaphorical character there 141 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 1: for the afterlife. In this sense, you've got nothingness, You've 142 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: got black, deep, dark nothingness. And when you're processing the 143 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 1: scene going down into the depths, because you literally are 144 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: you have to flood this area with lights so before 145 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 1: you can do anything in this environment, because the smallest 146 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: little clue down there, a ripped piece of clothing, cigarette butt. 147 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 1: I've actually had cases Dave with clandestine burials where the 148 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:39,440 Speaker 1: people were digging the hole and they flicked a cigarette 149 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:43,320 Speaker 1: butt down into the hole and we were able to 150 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 1: do DNA off the cigarette butt. So you never know 151 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: what you're going to find. 152 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 2: And they think they're going to find one, they are 153 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 2: Just to be crystal clear, they the police, they believe 154 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 2: they're going to find the body of Keith Palumbo. They 155 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 2: don't know about David Rissolo. They only think and they 156 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 2: think that Keith was there maybe two months. 157 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 1: Rissolo, to be honest with you, he would have been 158 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 1: almost completely skeletonized by this point and whatever clothing, which 159 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 1: again is a big part of this, whatever clothing he 160 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 1: would have had on, would have essentially been a container 161 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 1: for his skeletal remains. You've got this kind of point 162 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 1: of impact that happens when Keith Palombo is dropped down 163 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 1: onto this pre existing skeletal remain, so you can have 164 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 1: some disruption in the remains at that point in time 165 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 1: as well. So anything that may have been in one 166 00:09:55,800 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 1: configuration is suddenly distorted. Then on top of that, you've 167 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 1: got this process that is going on with this now 168 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: recent decompositional event where Palombo's body is beginning to break down. 169 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 1: We're talking about two months down the road. There still 170 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 1: would be soft tissue. And yeah, the odor would have 171 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 1: been incredibly foul. Even though this is technically subterranean and 172 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:27,239 Speaker 1: you're going to have you'll consistently the ambient interior temperature 173 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 1: and here is going to remain consistently at roughly below 174 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 1: seventy degrees more than likely. 175 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 3: What about humidity, Is it going to be humid? 176 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it would and this and hey listen, 177 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 1: this space would have been probably damp. There is no crypt, tomb, casket, 178 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 1: or coffin that is free of moisture. People try to 179 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 1: sell this, They try to tell you that it is. 180 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 1: But these environments you're underground. So with just and keep 181 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 1: in mind the water table itself as it rises and fallen. 182 00:10:56,880 --> 00:10:59,560 Speaker 1: And this crypt, as we know, has been there for 183 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 1: well in excess of probably one hundred years. It has 184 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 1: experienced water damage over the years. You can just look 185 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:07,599 Speaker 1: at the bodies that were stored in there from the 186 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:10,439 Speaker 1: cromseen photos and you can see mold and mildew, and 187 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 1: the caskets are actually beginning to break down. Some of 188 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 1: them have broken down that are in there. So, yeah, 189 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 1: the humidity is going to play a key role in this. 190 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 2: Police went down to find Keith Palombo. They expect one body, 191 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 2: fairly new. But the police aren't stupid. They know, hey, man, 192 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 2: if this was used to get rid of one guy, 193 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:34,840 Speaker 2: maybe this might be like the Mob Graveyard but for 194 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:37,679 Speaker 2: the biker gang, the Warlocks of Philadelphia. 195 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's pre knowledge of this too. Remember what 196 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 1: Keith Palombo actually told his family. He said, if I 197 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 1: ever go missing, look in the graveyard. Well, what the 198 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 1: heck does that mean? 199 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 3: Start the search at the cemetery? 200 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, start searching cemetery. What does that mean? Does did 201 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 1: that mean that he had knowledge of this other fellow 202 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 1: that had been dumped down in there? Or And this 203 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 1: is really chilling when you think about it. Are there 204 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 1: other locations throughout the cemetery And the sheer magnitude of 205 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 1: this when you begin to kind of do the calculus 206 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 1: here is mind blowing. If this was in fact a 207 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 1: dumping ground to get rid of bodies and maybe it 208 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 1: wasn't just them. Keep in mind with and I don't 209 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 1: want to go too far filled with this. You can 210 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:24,439 Speaker 1: fantasize about this all you want, but let's just explore 211 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 1: is just for a moment. The underworld is interconnected. They're 212 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 1: not on an island. You have people doing business, very 213 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 1: dark things, but they're still networked with one another and interconnected. 214 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 1: Let's just say that one organized crime group got together 215 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 1: with the other one said yeah, well we use this 216 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 1: area on a regular basis. Nobody's going to look there. 217 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 1: It's the perfect set of circumstances. After you get into 218 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:51,679 Speaker 1: the space and you've got all of these other casketed 219 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 1: bodies or previously casketed bodies, you're thinking the damage on 220 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:58,559 Speaker 1: these coffins. Did it occur as a result of somebody 221 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:01,840 Speaker 1: meddling with it or is it a natural event where 222 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 1: they're just breaking down over time? Even if it's old wood. 223 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: If these are old wooden caskets, which they look like, 224 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 1: if they've been freshly cracked, you could appreciate that on 225 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 1: the broken ends they won't have as much weather because 226 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:19,439 Speaker 1: as they were intact prior to being broken, that area 227 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 1: would have kind of been protected. But you could look 228 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 1: for fresh breaks and hear and so that would give 229 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 1: you an idea of activity. And that's the most important thing. 230 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:30,680 Speaker 1: Someone has been down there before. Someone has an awareness. 231 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 1: Someone had broken the seal on that crypt at some 232 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 1: point in time and gone down there, and they would 233 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:38,439 Speaker 1: have had an awareness of it. Someone had passed through 234 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:43,959 Speaker 1: that graveyard. Dave repeatedly looking for space to place these bodies. 235 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 1: But still at the end of the day, what do 236 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 1: you do with all of this when you get it 237 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 1: back to the medical examder's office. 238 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 2: And that's the question is what did Keith Palumbo? What 239 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:58,559 Speaker 2: did his body look like after being in this crypt 240 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 2: subterranean temperature moist about eight weeks. We know that, according 241 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 2: to documents related to the court case, that he was 242 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 2: shot in the face. Are you still going to have 243 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 2: enough soft tissue to find a bullet? 244 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:14,839 Speaker 1: The bullet here, I think is probably a secondary because 245 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 1: the bullet can actually pass through the head. Here's what's key. 246 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 1: We know that he was shot in the face. As 247 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 1: a matter of fact, one of the reports has from 248 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 1: one of the people that kind of rolled over on 249 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 1: this case. They shot him on a carpeted area and 250 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 1: rolled his body up in the carpet and actually trimmed 251 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 1: off pieces of it. The carpet was super saturated, and 252 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 1: the police have never released the information relative to this carpet. 253 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 1: Was it down there with the body? I think that 254 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 1: that's a fascinating bit of forensic evidence. But back to 255 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 1: his body, what would it reveal? Listen, even with decomposing remains, 256 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 1: Let's just say, if you will put your the tip 257 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 1: of your finger in the center of your forehead, that 258 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 1: soft tissue right there. Someone is shot in the center 259 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 1: of their forehead and it's within I don't know, probably 260 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 1: within about eight inches, you're going to have some type 261 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 1: of deposition on the surface of that skin. Now, will 262 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 1: it be more difficult to see on a decomposing body, Yeah, 263 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 1: it will be. Bodies do. In fact, they go through 264 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: stages relative to the color of their skin as they 265 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 1: are decomposing. First you'll have this kind of reddish hue 266 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: that will take place with the body. Then it'll become 267 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 1: this kind of sickly pink color. Then it expands out 268 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 1: into a green and then into a black, and then 269 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: finally the tissue is eradicated. He would not have hit 270 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 1: that kind of blackened state yet, So you could still 271 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 1: appreciate any kind of stippling or tattooing that was there 272 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 1: on skin. And also if the muzzle of that weapon 273 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 1: was close enough to the face, as we've been told 274 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 1: that it was fired, they would have done a detailed 275 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 1: dissection immediately over that defect. Defect is just a fancy 276 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 1: term for the hole, the bullet hole that's in the body. 277 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 1: And when you reflect that, let's say that it was 278 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 1: within say an inch of the forehead, there's a high 279 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 1: possibility that you would get what's referred to as soot 280 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 1: deposition on the external table of the skull, which means 281 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 1: that once you pull away that soft tissue, you can 282 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: actually appreciate perhaps gunpowder residue on the surface of the bone. 283 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 1: It would still be there. That's not going to dissipate. 284 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 1: The skin might disappear, and obviously it would soft tissue, 285 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 1: but not just over this period of time. It's a 286 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 1: foul mess to work with, trust me, it is. And 287 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 1: if he was shot anywhere else in the body, we 288 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 1: know in the face, but there's multiple gunshots, there's a 289 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 1: possibility you can still find some residue there. And also 290 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: if he was beaten down in any way, did you know, 291 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:46,040 Speaker 1: even if a body is decomposing, you can still in 292 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 1: the anti mortem state when we are bruised, we have 293 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 1: these focal areas of hemorrhage in the anti mortem state 294 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 1: that occurs. That means our heart is still pumping. You've 295 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: got this hemorrhage that's leaching out into what's referred to 296 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 1: as an interstitial tissue. Even in decompositional phase, you can 297 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 1: still appreciate that if you still have tissue. So they 298 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: would have examined that. Finally, one of the things that 299 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: they're going to try to discover with him. Even before 300 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:15,359 Speaker 1: they as we used to say in the morgue, before 301 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 1: they put the cold steel to the body, they would 302 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:20,159 Speaker 1: have done X rays. And X rays are important in 303 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: any kind of autops you do. I don't care how 304 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:27,160 Speaker 1: benign it might seem. If you have that radiographic record 305 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 1: of the body, that's something that will never go away. 306 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 1: And you want to do that before you ever remove 307 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 1: the clothing, period, because you don't know what's hiding beneath 308 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:39,920 Speaker 1: these radio opaque things. And with these bullets projectiles, as 309 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 1: they pass through and they cavitate through the skull, they 310 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:46,679 Speaker 1: leave a little lead storm. Lots of times and you 311 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:49,400 Speaker 1: can actually track that little lead storm and figure out 312 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:52,400 Speaker 1: what the trajectory of the round is. And that's important 313 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 1: here because as a body begins to decompose, and particularly 314 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,200 Speaker 1: when you're talking about the brain, the brain goes into 315 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 1: almost this doesn't have the same consistency as it does 316 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 1: in life. It's not quite as firm. So before you 317 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 1: ever touch the brain, like open it with the striker 318 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:11,159 Speaker 1: saw where we removed the skull cap and all that 319 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: sort of thing. If you're looking at a radiographic record 320 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 1: of this, you can still see that little lead track. 321 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 1: If that bullet is fragmenting, you can pick up on 322 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 1: the trajectory. So if this eyewitness is saying, yeah, I 323 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 1: saw him shoot him in the face. He was standing 324 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 1: three feet away from him, or two feet away or 325 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: six inches away from him. He had gotten Palombo down 326 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 1: on his knees before he shot him. Well, now you're 327 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 1: talking about a trajectory that's going from above to below, 328 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 1: from front to back, and it's on a really pitched angle. 329 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:46,440 Speaker 1: Maybe Palombo didn't look up at him when he was shot. 330 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:49,159 Speaker 1: Maybe he just kept his eyes looking straight ahead. If 331 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:51,640 Speaker 1: he's on his knees at the guy's thighs as he's 332 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:53,200 Speaker 1: been shot, and he shot more on the top of 333 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 1: the head that can be interpreted as the face, or 334 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 1: maybe they're face to face. Maybe he's got his chest 335 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:00,359 Speaker 1: thrown out and he whips the gun out, sticks it 336 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 1: right in his face and shoose him. That's going to 337 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 1: give you a more front to back without as much 338 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 1: of a pitch. So that's why the X rays are 339 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:07,680 Speaker 1: so very important. 340 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:10,719 Speaker 2: So months after he's been in that grip and you 341 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:13,399 Speaker 2: can still figure that out. Now, how would you get 342 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 2: the body out? Because I'm going to assume there's going 343 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 2: to be a barely in depth investigation of his body 344 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 2: right there where it's found before they move it. 345 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 3: Right. 346 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, I got to say something here real quick. A 347 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:27,959 Speaker 1: plug for all of my friends in the fire service. 348 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:31,919 Speaker 1: I have gotten out of more tight fixes as a 349 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 1: medical legal death investigator as a result of fire service 350 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 1: being at a scene. And you want to know why 351 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 1: police officers are very fastidious with their uniforms. The thing 352 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 1: about firefighters, they'll look at you and it doesn't matter 353 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 1: how dirty the task is. They'll say, oh yeah, doc, 354 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 1: we'll be glad to help you. What do you need. 355 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 1: We've got a special knot that we can tie or 356 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:53,399 Speaker 1: we've got this and that that we can help you 357 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 1: out with. We got this brand new tool we want 358 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:57,920 Speaker 1: to use. And let me tell you, when they would 359 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:01,640 Speaker 1: have gotten Palombo's body out, fire rescue would have been 360 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:05,480 Speaker 1: involved and it would have been just like a regular rescue. However, 361 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:08,920 Speaker 1: you're talking about a markedly decomposed body. So the body 362 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 1: would have been bagged. 363 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:12,399 Speaker 3: When you say bagged, you mean like in the body 364 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 3: bag as. 365 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:16,400 Speaker 1: In body bag. Yeah, to completely contain the body. Here's 366 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:20,199 Speaker 1: another bit about body bags, since we're on the topic. 367 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 1: Bodies don't go directly into body bags. What happens is 368 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 1: we line the body bags with a clean white sheet. 369 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:29,199 Speaker 1: And the reason we do that is that when we 370 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 1: place the body that is recovered at the scene into 371 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 1: the body bag that is in fact lined with a sheet, 372 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:40,400 Speaker 1: we're guaranteed to a certain degree, and it's not perfect, 373 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 1: but to a certain degree that we can recover any 374 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 1: kind of trace evidence that might fall off. It's not 375 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,159 Speaker 1: going to go anywhere. And so we can tie the 376 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,159 Speaker 1: sheet off around the body and then zip the body 377 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 1: bag closed and lock it. We actually have these little 378 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:57,879 Speaker 1: plastic locks. Then the body would have been placed into 379 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 1: a life saving basket essentially, like you see mountain rescues 380 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:03,439 Speaker 1: being done and all this sort of thing, and it 381 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 1: would have been pulled up by the firefighters. That there's 382 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:10,200 Speaker 1: a great shot from the scene that was put out 383 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:13,720 Speaker 1: by the DA's office. I urge anybody go take a 384 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:16,399 Speaker 1: look at this, and you can see firefighters looking over 385 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 1: into the crypt and they would have pulled them out 386 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:21,959 Speaker 1: and then they would have transferred it to the medical 387 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:24,920 Speaker 1: examiner's wagon and off they go, and. 388 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 3: They would try to keep them level the whole way. 389 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 1: As best you can. You don't want to jostle any remains. 390 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 1: Skeletal remains are going to be a bit different. The 391 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 1: one saving grace is if in fact the skeletal remains 392 00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 1: were still contained within clothing, we have to assumed that 393 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:04,920 Speaker 1: they were. That is, if shirt, pants, shoes, all of 394 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:08,199 Speaker 1: those items that would have acted as kind of a 395 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:12,160 Speaker 1: containment resource for the body. So it's not like at 396 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:15,199 Speaker 1: the scene, I think people believe that we're going to 397 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:19,160 Speaker 1: do this really detailed examination or remains of the scene. 398 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 1: That's not what we're going to do. Our goal at 399 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:24,880 Speaker 1: the scene is to try to keep bodies as intact, 400 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 1: anatomically oriented minds you as we possibly can. That's not 401 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 1: always going to be the case, but do care would 402 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:34,760 Speaker 1: have had to have been taken with the skeletal remains 403 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: to try to gently scoop beneath them while they're intact. 404 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 1: There's a high probability that you're going to lose, say, 405 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 1: for instance, the elements of the hand, any kind of 406 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 1: bony structures there. The feet are very are highly complex structurally, 407 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,360 Speaker 1: so you've got bones that make up the ankle structure, 408 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,160 Speaker 1: and then of course you have the toes and everything 409 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:58,639 Speaker 1: else that's associated with that. So you want to be 410 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 1: as careful as you can. And the clothing that would 411 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:05,160 Speaker 1: have been down there I've seen as a matter of fact, 412 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 1: I worked a skeletal case from New Orleans many years 413 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,640 Speaker 1: ago where a guy went beneath his house in seventy four, 414 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 1: and this was actually profiled on a Michael Biden's autopsy 415 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:17,199 Speaker 1: show on HBO many years ago. He went beneath the 416 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:21,200 Speaker 1: house in nineteen seventy four and shot himself and the family. 417 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 1: They didn't discover that guy's body until like nineteen I 418 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,120 Speaker 1: think it was like nineteen eighty nine, and I got 419 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 1: called out and the blue jeans are still there. He 420 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 1: still had the big wide belt that everybody wore back then. 421 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 1: The blue jeans were flared, you could still appreciate those. 422 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 1: He had leather shoes on and still had a mechanic 423 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 1: shirt on that had his name. You ever seen the 424 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,400 Speaker 1: mechanic shirts that had the name, still had the name 425 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:49,200 Speaker 1: where it was visible. And there was an old thirty 426 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 1: eight caliber revolver that was rusted away laying right there. 427 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 1: This goal was even still there, so you have to 428 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:56,919 Speaker 1: be careful with the clothing is very very fragile. In 429 00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 1: this environment you talked about humidity, it begins to break down. 430 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:03,399 Speaker 2: We know the police went down into the crypt to 431 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 2: look for Keith Palombo. That's who they were there to find. 432 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:10,359 Speaker 2: That's what their investigation led them there. They had it 433 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,359 Speaker 2: all covered now by then. They go down to the 434 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 2: crypt and they find his body. But they find now, granted, 435 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:18,960 Speaker 2: we have a crypt that's got plenty of other bodies 436 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,640 Speaker 2: in it, but those are obviously supposed to be there. 437 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 2: But then you have these two that don't match the rest. 438 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 2: One still has hair and skin, the other has been 439 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,719 Speaker 2: there for considerably longer. Now, when you think about David 440 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:36,960 Speaker 2: Rozillo being in this crypt, that for again, he was 441 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 2: last seen in December of twenty seventeen. We're now in 442 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 2: April of twenty twenty and police had to do DNA, 443 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,399 Speaker 2: they had to actually do the whole forensic thing on him. 444 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:50,480 Speaker 2: So where do you start. You know, you've got the 445 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 2: body on top. It was the one you were expecting 446 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 2: to find, and based on the condition of his body 447 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 2: the remains, they knew they had their right guy. Of 448 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 2: course they did the dental tsking and everything wants to 449 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:02,679 Speaker 2: prove it, but they knew this was the guy we 450 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:03,199 Speaker 2: were looking for. 451 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:04,439 Speaker 3: But what in the world. 452 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 2: This is another guy that has been dumped, probably by 453 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,640 Speaker 2: the same people, which is why they had to get information, 454 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 2: and they started making deals with different members of the 455 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,360 Speaker 2: Warlocks gang because they didn't even know who they were 456 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 2: looking at. Nobody had reported this person missing. That was 457 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,920 Speaker 2: the thing with David Rizillo. They didn't know he was 458 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:25,399 Speaker 2: even there. They didn't know he was missing. 459 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 1: That's a problem for you. However, since the police, the 460 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 1: investigators would know, they're kind of on a very tight 461 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 1: spectrum here because you're talking about a motorcycle club and 462 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 1: there are a finite number of people that could be 463 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,680 Speaker 1: a member or associated with that club. Well, you begin 464 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 1: to think about the police. Law enforcement are always going 465 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,400 Speaker 1: to have informants. I don't care how secure you might 466 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,199 Speaker 1: think your organization is, There's always going to be somebody 467 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:51,680 Speaker 1: around that's going to rat you out. 468 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 2: There is no honor among thieves and criminals. You know 469 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,640 Speaker 2: how drug dealers get caught by the idiots that use 470 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,679 Speaker 2: the drugs. They get caught with it because they're driving 471 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,639 Speaker 2: around high and they have what they bought for twenty 472 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,400 Speaker 2: five bucks. Cob gives them two choices. Do you want 473 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 2: to go to charge maybe a fellon you lose your 474 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 2: job and everything else, or tell me who you bought 475 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 2: this from. 476 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:12,679 Speaker 1: Who'd you get it from? And you kind of follow 477 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:13,199 Speaker 1: the stream. 478 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:14,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's what they did here. 479 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 2: We know they did it because right at the very 480 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 2: beginning we know that it was Donna Morelli. Donna Morelli 481 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:23,800 Speaker 2: was the woman who was on the board to keep 482 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:27,120 Speaker 2: the cemetery up. We know that Donna Morelli was the 483 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 2: former main lady of the club. Her husband or I 484 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 2: don't know what they call him, but her man, he 485 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 2: had been the head of the club and she lived 486 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 2: right there next to it. She was the one who 487 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:42,720 Speaker 2: gave them information about Keith Palombo, and so now who 488 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 2: is this other body? You're the investigator, Joe. All you 489 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 2: have are bones in what is obviously a place where 490 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 2: the Warlocks are dumping bodies. And I think you were 491 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:57,200 Speaker 2: right when you said, Keith Palombo said, if I ever 492 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:00,679 Speaker 2: go missing, search the cemetery first, because he used as 493 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:02,360 Speaker 2: a threat or he knew. 494 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 1: And even more sinister, did he participate. I don't know 495 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 1: that we would ever know, but you have to entertain 496 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:13,200 Speaker 1: that because that thread investigatively can connect, can connect back 497 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:15,640 Speaker 1: to that. You look at this kind of short list 498 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 1: of people that you have, this gentleman that they found 499 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 1: just down there, you begin to wonder, what do you 500 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,680 Speaker 1: have to go on. Obviously DNA, we know that they 501 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 1: either extracted DNA, probably from a tooth, more than likely, 502 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 1: because teeth are The way I've described it in my 503 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:38,520 Speaker 1: class is relative to DNA extraction. If you think about 504 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:43,159 Speaker 1: extracting DNA from say a softer tissue, it's like having 505 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,879 Speaker 1: a leather briefcase that you're taking it from. If you 506 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 1: take it from teeth, DNA is like having a steel 507 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,880 Speaker 1: briefcase because it's that resilient. I mean, some of the 508 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 1: most fantastic work that scientists are doing right now and 509 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 1: trying to understand genetics, and those sorts of things, particularly 510 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 1: in our prehistory, come from teeth of mast dons and 511 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,240 Speaker 1: all those sorts of things, because it's a container, it's 512 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:10,359 Speaker 1: not bone, and so they would have that. But another 513 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:14,359 Speaker 1: kind of broader strokes. There are other evidentiary clues here. 514 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:16,480 Speaker 1: You know I'd mentioned that clothing, Well, that clothing is 515 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:18,359 Speaker 1: going to have a specific size, it's going to have 516 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,680 Speaker 1: a specific manufacturer. There might be name tapes or name 517 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 1: tax and also you might have a government ID. I 518 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 1: never trust government issued identification on anybody, particularly on a 519 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,160 Speaker 1: decomposed remain, a skeletal remain, because it can be placed there. 520 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,159 Speaker 1: I have no idea. I can't look at the idea 521 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 1: and say that it is this person. So it's a 522 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 1: good place to start and see. I would have thought 523 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 1: that had been a good one. I really if you had, 524 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 1: if I was on a test, I just failed. Now 525 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 1: I make sense, Joe, It makes perfectly good sense that 526 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 1: you wouldn't trust that. There have been many, many people 527 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 1: that have been misidentified with driver's licenses that they had 528 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 1: on them. I don't trust them. I don't trust military ideas. 529 00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 1: I've seen enough of them. They can either be forged 530 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 1: or faked, or somebody can be carrying somebody else's it's 531 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:06,480 Speaker 1: too much of a risk. You're actually what you're doing 532 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 1: is you're running the risk of good and this has happened. 533 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 1: You're running the risk of basing an identification and subsequently 534 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 1: a notification to a family on a government on a 535 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 1: piece of paper. I don't want to do that. I 536 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 1: might go to a family and say, look, we have 537 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 1: a remain here that might be your loved one, but 538 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 1: we have to make sure. What can you tell me 539 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: about the dental history. What can you tell me about 540 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 1: the medical history? Is there anywhere I can go for 541 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 1: a dental chart? Can I get a DNA sample from 542 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 1: his familial line? And if that is the case, then 543 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,720 Speaker 1: I can compare what I have the unknown to the known, 544 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 1: and that's the most important thing. 545 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 2: And so that's what they did with David Rizilla, which 546 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 2: is why it ended up going to court. As we 547 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 2: know now, Donna Morelli actually was the source of information. 548 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 2: She was able to plea it down, which is how 549 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 2: it helped to find out who he was. But they 550 00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 2: did the DNA matching and everything. But I was kind 551 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 2: of car because we had talked about the condition of 552 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,960 Speaker 2: the body for Keith Palumbo, that he was still eight 553 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:09,560 Speaker 2: weeks pasted, that he still had soft tissue and what 554 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 2: have you. But with David Rizzolo, they had to depend 555 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 2: on other waves to find out to prove what had happened. 556 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:18,480 Speaker 2: Is one thing for somebody to say what happened, but 557 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 2: you can't take her word for it, because, well, for 558 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 2: crying out loud, everybody we're dealing with, we know is 559 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,719 Speaker 2: a member of the Warlocks gang here in Philadelphia, but 560 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,760 Speaker 2: they all claim they were not members of the They 561 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 2: were never involved in the case of the guy who 562 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 2: they knew was a leader of the thing for years 563 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 2: in court they said no, he was a probationary guy. 564 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:41,840 Speaker 2: So you can't believe anything that's being said. But what 565 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 2: can you find out When you've got the bones, you've 566 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 2: got the clothing, you've got this evidence, there's enough to 567 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 2: piece too and two together and then form your line 568 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 2: of attack. But you're going to find these bones in there, 569 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 2: and you don't know if this is where they were 570 00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 2: when they were first put down there or were they 571 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 2: knocked around with the other body was dropped in are 572 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 2: the rodents that can get into a crypt, so the 573 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 2: bunts could be drug around. 574 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, most certainly, and rats in particular are attracted particularly 575 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: with exposed remain like this because put it quite bluntly, 576 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 1: other animal life attracts other animal life. And so once 577 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 1: those say, for instance, the fly which to get into 578 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,200 Speaker 1: a crypt is an easy feat for a fly, and 579 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 1: if they're smelling this decompositional event, they're going to be 580 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 1: attracted to it. They have no fear of the dark, 581 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 1: and that sense that they have, that sense rather that 582 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 1: they have will attract them to the body and they 583 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 1: begin their cycle and it's a naturally occurring event. It's 584 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 1: just like any other mammal that dies. We all go 585 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 1: through the same process. But in that subterranean world, Yeah, 586 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 1: you'll get all kinds of armints that will come in 587 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 1: there and they will begin to do what they do 588 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 1: with human remains, and you would see evidence on that, 589 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 1: even the skeletal remains. You'll see there's any number of 590 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 1: cases that are out there where you have naw marks 591 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,720 Speaker 1: on bone that's left behind. And why do they do that, Well, 592 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 1: animals have a natural affinity for minerals, and so they're 593 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 1: seeking out these things that they can get from bone, 594 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,960 Speaker 1: for instance, whether it's a calcium, they're searching for protein. 595 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 1: Anything that they can know on that is at their disposal, 596 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 1: they will seek it out and they will they will 597 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 1: utilize it. So yet the bones can be compromised to 598 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,200 Speaker 1: that point, however, you're at a real you're behind the 599 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,880 Speaker 1: eight ball where the skeletal remain if you're looking for 600 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 1: a cause of death, and I think that that's probably 601 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 1: what everybody would want to know. Here's another problem. Let's 602 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 1: just say, just like Palombo, he was shot in the face, well, 603 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 1: his head. As long as there's a soft tissue around 604 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 1: the head, you still have containment. The skull would be fragmented, 605 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:55,480 Speaker 1: it'd be fractured as decomposition continues on in its natural state. 606 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 1: Not talking about an embalmed body. The bones literally kind 607 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:03,040 Speaker 1: of fall upon It's like a fracturing clay pot, okay, 608 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:06,800 Speaker 1: and they'll be cast about where the skeletal remain. Now 609 00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 1: you're at this point where if he was shot in 610 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 1: the face, you might be dealing with massive skull fracture 611 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 1: that's going on. There's no more soft tissue to hold 612 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 1: it together. We're talking multiple years down range. So it 613 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 1: could be lying down there in multiple parts. Well, guess what. 614 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 1: A rodent will take the smaller bits of bone, like 615 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 1: the table of the skull, and if they've got a hole, 616 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 1: say in the wall of that crypt, they will literally 617 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:33,600 Speaker 1: take that back to their nest and they'll gnaw on it. 618 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:36,040 Speaker 1: Possums do this all the time out in the woods 619 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:39,720 Speaker 1: with bone possums and raccoons. They'll haul bits of bone 620 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 1: off to their little nest, their little areas where they live, 621 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:46,479 Speaker 1: and they'll feast on this. And you'll wind up missing 622 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,680 Speaker 1: bits of bone out there with skeletons that have been 623 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 1: down for a protracted period of time. I think that's 624 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 1: one of the reasons like we rarely find, for instance, 625 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:57,960 Speaker 1: like hyoid bones those and bones in the neck that 626 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 1: everybody's always going on about because it's very fragile, it's 627 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 1: very tiny, and so that would be prime for say 628 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 1: an animal to grab hold of and they haul it away. Well, 629 00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:10,480 Speaker 1: if the hyoid is missing, for instance, and say just 630 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,279 Speaker 1: some generic case out there, and you're thinking, wow, is 631 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:15,800 Speaker 1: this a homicide, Was this a strangulation or something? I 632 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,040 Speaker 1: need to see if it was fractured, it's not there, Well, 633 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:19,760 Speaker 1: you got to check that off the list. You can't 634 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,759 Speaker 1: check it. That's a problem. You can't prove it. So 635 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:26,680 Speaker 1: with his skull, with the skeletal remains, what you're looking 636 00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:29,799 Speaker 1: for is even after death, if you have the totality 637 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 1: of the skull, you can still put it together all right, 638 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,920 Speaker 1: and you'll use wax or clay kind of to seal 639 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,400 Speaker 1: it up many times, and you can appreciate the form 640 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:40,680 Speaker 1: of it, and you can also appreciate if there are 641 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:43,160 Speaker 1: any defects in the skull. So if he's shot in 642 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 1: the forehead, for instance, that's going to have internal beveling. 643 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:50,200 Speaker 1: So you think about a beveled glass. The interior of 644 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,040 Speaker 1: that bone is blown out and it's beveled on the inside. 645 00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:55,880 Speaker 1: It's smooth on the outside, and it's just the opposite 646 00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:57,879 Speaker 1: if it exit, If it exits out of the back 647 00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:01,000 Speaker 1: of the head externally, you'll have it external beveling, but 648 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,359 Speaker 1: the interior the skull will be smooth where the whole 649 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,279 Speaker 1: passes through. So that's how we determine where a skeleton 650 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:09,920 Speaker 1: or with a skull, which one is the entrance versus exit, 651 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:12,400 Speaker 1: And then is it a throw and through wound. You know, 652 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,440 Speaker 1: I've picked up skulls before and kind of shook them 653 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:17,920 Speaker 1: a little bit. And you can actually hear a projectile 654 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 1: rattling around inside the cranial vault, which for us we 655 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:25,439 Speaker 1: get excited about because we've got to project all there. 656 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 2: So you've got, in this case, combination of good old 657 00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 2: police work going to your local biker gang and breaking 658 00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 2: it down. But when they get down the crypt, they 659 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,960 Speaker 2: find what they're looking for, but they find something they 660 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:42,080 Speaker 2: didn't even know was there. And that's where the forensics 661 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:44,600 Speaker 2: really had to go into overdrive to figure out who 662 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,360 Speaker 2: this guy is. Even though they had a story from 663 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,680 Speaker 2: different individuals in the gang in the club, they still 664 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:52,879 Speaker 2: had to prove who he was, and eventually they did 665 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:56,840 Speaker 2: so David Rizzolo and Keith Plumbo both were able to 666 00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 2: be put to rest. 667 00:35:58,080 --> 00:35:59,719 Speaker 1: That's the key to it all. At the end of 668 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:03,279 Speaker 1: the day, I can't help but think though that with 669 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:07,320 Speaker 1: the investigators that were out there when they found Keith 670 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:11,840 Speaker 1: Palombo's remained, there was a certain amount of relief. Obviously 671 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:14,279 Speaker 1: they'd been speaking with the family, but always in the 672 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,080 Speaker 1: back of their mind they're thinking, how are we going 673 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:20,880 Speaker 1: to make sense of this? Because this is the ultimate puzzle, 674 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:24,759 Speaker 1: isn't it? When You have one individual that you're looking for, 675 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:28,240 Speaker 1: and suddenly, is almost like some kind of sick bonus, 676 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:36,560 Speaker 1: you find the skeletal remains of another homicide victim. I'm 677 00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Backs.