WEBVTT - Gaming the Flow 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:05.960 Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 0:00:05.960 --> 0:00:14.160 Works dot com. Hey, welcome to stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:14.200 --> 0:00:16.840 My name is Robert Lamb and um, Julie, go with 0:00:16.920 --> 0:00:20.880 the flow, Douglas, Yeah, that's your thing. Yeah, I mean 0:00:20.920 --> 0:00:23.360 it really should be all of our things, right, you 0:00:23.400 --> 0:00:26.239 could go with the flow to experience what we have 0:00:26.520 --> 0:00:29.960 come to know as flow states. Yeah, and uh, you know, 0:00:30.040 --> 0:00:33.800 being in the flow creates a lot of different ideas 0:00:33.840 --> 0:00:37.040 and the brain about what that is. Um, you know, 0:00:37.159 --> 0:00:40.280 it's a kind of altered state. We should mention that. 0:00:41.240 --> 0:00:43.519 For me, I think about a river flowing and I 0:00:43.560 --> 0:00:47.400 always think about that phrase, Um, don't push the river, 0:00:47.520 --> 0:00:51.000 it moves all by itself. Now that's meant to suggest like, hey, 0:00:51.040 --> 0:00:54.160 don't try to do things before you're ready to do them, 0:00:54.240 --> 0:00:57.480 or just trying to impose your own agenda onto things. 0:00:57.960 --> 0:01:00.440 But it also reminds me of flow in the sense 0:01:00.520 --> 0:01:03.840 that you cannot push the state of flow that we 0:01:03.960 --> 0:01:08.240 sometimes fall into. You kind of have to submit to it. Yeah. 0:01:08.560 --> 0:01:11.480 The model that I always come back to is that 0:01:11.560 --> 0:01:14.200 of surfing, and it's not based on extensive surfing. I 0:01:14.240 --> 0:01:17.600 only surfed surfed once with when I was visiting a 0:01:17.600 --> 0:01:19.840 friend in a way. Uh, and he insisted, you know, 0:01:19.840 --> 0:01:21.840 all right, keep coming, come out, try surfing. I'm okay, 0:01:21.840 --> 0:01:23.800 I'll try it, and you just and kept insisting, or 0:01:23.840 --> 0:01:25.240 I keep at it, keep at it. You're not really 0:01:25.280 --> 0:01:28.800 surfing it. You're just paddling among the waves. And I'm 0:01:28.880 --> 0:01:31.039 the whole time, I'm thinking, I really just want to 0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:33.200 go back to the beach and get back on dry 0:01:33.280 --> 0:01:35.120 land because there's a lot of work and it's not 0:01:35.200 --> 0:01:38.520 really that fun. But is anyone who's served or even 0:01:38.600 --> 0:01:41.520 boogiebird boarded, I guess uh, I can tell you. There 0:01:41.520 --> 0:01:44.319 comes a point where you're you're you know, you're paddling, 0:01:44.360 --> 0:01:46.319 You're paddling, You're laying on that board and you're just 0:01:46.440 --> 0:01:49.200 you're just working your butt off to keep up with 0:01:49.240 --> 0:01:52.280 the wave. And then the wave catches you and you 0:01:52.400 --> 0:01:54.360 don't have to paddle, and that's the point where you 0:01:54.360 --> 0:01:56.760 would climb up on the board and everything because the 0:01:57.360 --> 0:02:00.280 board is being propelled by the wave instead of I you. 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:03.800 And that is, for me, is what flow state feels like. 0:02:03.880 --> 0:02:07.480 If I'm if I'm writing, if I'm painting, if even 0:02:07.520 --> 0:02:09.920 if I'm doing some sort of you know, a manual 0:02:10.040 --> 0:02:13.520 sort of labor task, in the backyard sometimes um, not 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:16.000 very often, but it happens, is that you reach that 0:02:16.080 --> 0:02:18.400 point where you're not you know, it's almost like you're 0:02:18.400 --> 0:02:20.440 not having to work at it anymore. You're you're being 0:02:20.480 --> 0:02:25.120 pulled by this force that seems outside of you. Yeah. Um. 0:02:25.280 --> 0:02:29.560 Dr Ned Hollowell at Harvard Medical School described it as 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:34.359 flow being a doorway two more that most of us seek. 0:02:34.639 --> 0:02:36.919 So I like this idea, I said, you know, submitting 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:41.040 to it, um, And some people say they slip into it. 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:44.359 But again, this doorway, this portal that feels like you're 0:02:44.480 --> 0:02:48.040 you're just you know, you're in a different state that 0:02:48.120 --> 0:02:50.560 you've left your body in a way. But at the 0:02:50.600 --> 0:02:55.600 same time that's you're full of awareness and clarity and 0:02:55.800 --> 0:02:59.880 things seem effortless, and that's this beautiful place to be. 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:01.920 So we're going to try to explore this a little 0:03:01.919 --> 0:03:04.919 bit more today. And by the way, we have listener 0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:08.480 David to thank for this. He is a lecture in 0:03:08.760 --> 0:03:13.520 game design at Glasgow Caledonian University and uh, he wanted 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:17.400 to open more of this up to us. We've talked 0:03:17.440 --> 0:03:19.119 about flow in the past, but we really haven't done 0:03:19.120 --> 0:03:21.320 a deep dive on it. So it's been pretty fascinating, 0:03:21.400 --> 0:03:24.880 So thank you, David. Yeah, because flow has come up 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:27.240 in the past on podcast episodes, and I feel like 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:29.480 it's a it's one of these concepts. It's not difficult 0:03:29.480 --> 0:03:33.200 at all to grasp the essence off because I think 0:03:33.200 --> 0:03:37.480 by some estimates, twelve percent of people would not know 0:03:37.560 --> 0:03:39.560 what we're talking about here when we maybe just have 0:03:39.600 --> 0:03:42.120 to imagine flow. But for the rest of us, flow 0:03:42.200 --> 0:03:44.600 is something that at least occasionally pops up in your 0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:47.000 life and you and you're like, yes, that is flow state. 0:03:47.400 --> 0:03:49.560 That is what I want to aim for every day. 0:03:49.920 --> 0:03:52.640 And this idea of flow, at least the idea of it, 0:03:52.760 --> 0:03:54.800 not the term has been around for so long. I 0:03:54.800 --> 0:03:57.320 mean Aristotle was trying to figure out what this is. 0:03:57.840 --> 0:04:03.000 Abraham Maslow of maslow Hierarchy of Needs fame he called 0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:08.920 these sessions of extraordinary experiences are peak experiences. And finally 0:04:08.960 --> 0:04:11.040 we have someone by the name of me Hi Chick 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:16.000 sent me Hi who came along and really studied this 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:21.160 in earnest Yeah, Chicks and me High, Hungarian psychology professor. 0:04:21.480 --> 0:04:23.680 He immigrated the United States at the age of twenty 0:04:23.720 --> 0:04:27.480 two um Currently at Claremont Graduate University. He's the former 0:04:27.520 --> 0:04:29.520 head of the Department of Psychology at the University of 0:04:29.560 --> 0:04:33.000 Chicago and of the Department of Sociology and Anthropology at 0:04:33.080 --> 0:04:35.679 Lake Forest College. In addition to all of this, though, 0:04:36.000 --> 0:04:39.680 he also was at one time an avid rock climber, 0:04:40.160 --> 0:04:42.320 which is key, that's right, And in the seventies at 0:04:42.320 --> 0:04:44.839 the University of Chicago, he was trying to really figure 0:04:44.880 --> 0:04:49.120 out what this experience was because he's climbing these rocks, right, 0:04:49.240 --> 0:04:51.360 he's engaging, and he's just living in the moment. He's 0:04:51.360 --> 0:04:54.400 flowing with it yep. And he says, these exceptional moments 0:04:54.440 --> 0:04:58.400 are what I have called flow experiences. He says, the 0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:01.400 metaphor of flow is one that many people have used 0:05:01.400 --> 0:05:03.840 to describe the sense of effortless action they feel in 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:07.560 moments that stand out as best in their lives. Athletes 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:10.520 refer to it as being in the zone, religious mystics 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:15.520 as being in ecstasy, artists and musicians as aesthetic rapture. 0:05:15.760 --> 0:05:19.000 I love the aesthetic rapture. You're visited by the muse, right, 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:22.600 the muse has has ventured into your little universe from 0:05:22.600 --> 0:05:26.080 somewhere beyond and is somehow commanding your efforts. So for 0:05:26.200 --> 0:05:30.400 ten years he studied this in earnest all over the 0:05:30.440 --> 0:05:34.200 globe and surveyed a number of people. And we'll talk 0:05:34.200 --> 0:05:37.080 a little bit more about his methods in a moment. 0:05:37.200 --> 0:05:40.080 But um, one of the things that kept coming up 0:05:40.080 --> 0:05:43.640 besides this idea of it being effortless, was this quality 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:46.760 of fluidity. And that's where he came up with that 0:05:46.880 --> 0:05:49.279 term flow. I like, so let's break it down. What 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:52.680 are the qualities of flow? Well, first of all, we've 0:05:52.680 --> 0:05:55.240 got to talk about goals. There's a clear set of 0:05:55.320 --> 0:05:59.520 goals that require appropriate responses. Uh And and that's that's 0:05:59.600 --> 0:06:02.440 key here. Imagine rock climbing, because that's a great example 0:06:02.440 --> 0:06:05.280 to come back to. There. There's some clear goals in 0:06:05.320 --> 0:06:07.719 place here. You've got to stay attached to that rock 0:06:07.760 --> 0:06:10.320 wall and not fall off. You want to move up, 0:06:10.680 --> 0:06:13.600 but not down at least until you're ready to reverse directions. 0:06:13.920 --> 0:06:16.120 You want to reach from, you know, from one hand 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:18.520 hold to another, from one foothold to the next. There's 0:06:18.680 --> 0:06:21.840 a clear set of goals in place. Yeah, or think 0:06:21.839 --> 0:06:23.880 of even like chess or tennis, which have a lot 0:06:23.880 --> 0:06:26.520 of rules to follow. Right, it's a very black and 0:06:26.600 --> 0:06:30.680 white universe, and this is something that doesn't necessarily exist 0:06:30.760 --> 0:06:33.480 out and you know, outside of the flow state, right, 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:36.159 this black and white universe. Yeah, I mean life is 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:39.560 often really complicated where any given choice that we make, 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:41.680 we have to think, is this the best choice? Am I? 0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:44.719 Am I engaging with life correctly? Am I raising my 0:06:44.839 --> 0:06:47.720 child right? Because I'm hearing right answers and wrong answers 0:06:47.760 --> 0:06:50.720 all over the board. But then you go to the 0:06:50.800 --> 0:06:53.560 checkers board, You go to the chess board, and there 0:06:53.560 --> 0:06:56.000 there are a clear set of rules in play, and 0:06:56.000 --> 0:06:58.400 and it's a it's a smaller universe. It's the universe 0:06:58.440 --> 0:07:01.560 that makes a lot more sense in that self contained 0:07:01.640 --> 0:07:05.560 universe would be the second quality of flow. So chick 0:07:05.600 --> 0:07:07.840 sept me High says that you know, if you perform 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:10.800 a religious ritual, you play a musical piece, we have 0:07:10.880 --> 0:07:13.880 a rug all of that that that's a very self 0:07:13.920 --> 0:07:17.560 contained universe in which you can apply those rules. Ritual 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:20.960 is key because because the whole part of this too 0:07:21.200 --> 0:07:23.720 is that you're acting without questioning what should be done 0:07:23.800 --> 0:07:26.200 or how it should be done to be a religious 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:29.280 ritual or this uh, this this job that you do 0:07:29.360 --> 0:07:31.840 every day, there's a certain way to do it. You 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:33.880 do it well, you know that you're gonna get results. 0:07:33.920 --> 0:07:37.800 From it and you just give yourself over to the activity. Now, 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:42.080 the third quality of flow would be mediate feedback. So 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:45.240 you're in it right, your your playing tenants, your playing chess, 0:07:45.280 --> 0:07:48.400 you're rock climbing, and you are getting feedback from your environment, 0:07:48.480 --> 0:07:52.160 from your brain, from your your muscle memory, from your 0:07:52.280 --> 0:07:56.800 neuronal memory about what's going on and how well you're 0:07:56.800 --> 0:07:59.600 performing at this task. Right, you're climbing that rock wall, 0:07:59.800 --> 0:08:02.520 You're gonna know right away if that was a good move. 0:08:02.640 --> 0:08:04.760 You know, you're gonna either either you're gonna slip a 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:07.120 little bit, or you're gonna realize, well, I'm I really 0:08:07.120 --> 0:08:08.920 need to move this way up the wall. Or you're 0:08:08.920 --> 0:08:11.640 playing chess, you move that piece. Uh. You know, you 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:13.720 might be engaged in all sort of a longer game 0:08:13.800 --> 0:08:16.000 strategy wise, but for the most part, you're going to 0:08:16.080 --> 0:08:18.960 find out right away if that was a wise move 0:08:19.040 --> 0:08:21.000 to make right, which kind of gives you a sense 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:24.760 of control and mastery. And that leads to the fourth 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:29.120 quality of flow, which is a manageable challenge because, as 0:08:29.160 --> 0:08:31.400 you say, if if during this feedback process you're getting 0:08:31.440 --> 0:08:34.120 some information that you need to tweak things, then you 0:08:34.200 --> 0:08:37.480 have that control and you can rise to the challenge. 0:08:37.559 --> 0:08:41.640 So your skill level would be well matched with the 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:45.600 task at hand. Um, but the task would be just 0:08:45.840 --> 0:08:49.640 difficult that you'd have to really stretch your skills without 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:52.800 snapping them in order to meet it. Yeah, like you 0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:55.280 hear people about talking about going into beast mode, right, 0:08:55.600 --> 0:08:57.600 like you'er knowally, if they're going into beast mode, they're 0:08:57.600 --> 0:09:01.920 probably doing something that in ages their their strengths. It 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:04.199 forces them to go to to up their act a 0:09:04.280 --> 0:09:06.680 little bit. But it's not super easy, but it but 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:09.959 it is within reach. Um. An easy way to to 0:09:09.960 --> 0:09:11.920 think about this is just think about jobs that you've done. 0:09:11.960 --> 0:09:14.880 I mean, we've all had jobs. Say, uh, you've worked 0:09:14.880 --> 0:09:17.160 on a factory line. Not to say that all factory 0:09:17.200 --> 0:09:21.360 line is drudgery, but but it certainly can be, especially 0:09:21.400 --> 0:09:24.480 if the task is just you know, doing one silly 0:09:24.480 --> 0:09:26.400 thing after the other and there's no real flow to it. 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:30.040 It's just it's just monotonous and it's and it's you know, 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:35.559 beneath your your overall abilities, uh, that is falling below 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:39.680 the the flow state. Likewise, if you find if you're 0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:41.480 thrown into if you're on a job and you're thrown 0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:44.000 into a new task, that you really are not comfortable with, 0:09:44.080 --> 0:09:46.680 you don't know your way around a program or or 0:09:46.720 --> 0:09:49.600 the office space, then it's it's it's a it's a 0:09:49.640 --> 0:09:54.640 frustrating situation. And that's uh, and that's beyond the flow state, right, 0:09:54.679 --> 0:09:57.320 So you have to have that thing that again is stretching, 0:09:57.360 --> 0:10:00.400 that's not snapping your brain in your body. Yeah, I 0:10:00.400 --> 0:10:02.960 mean the passage of time flows into this too, right, 0:10:03.000 --> 0:10:05.440 because when you're in the flow state, time just clicks 0:10:05.440 --> 0:10:07.840 by like that, right, because you're just you're just sailing 0:10:07.840 --> 0:10:11.440 through it. But if you're doing something just boring as well, 0:10:11.640 --> 0:10:13.959 it's gonna it seems like the day last forever. If 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:16.320 you're frustrated at the first day of work, when you're 0:10:16.360 --> 0:10:18.720 out of your element, it just seems to take forever. Well. 0:10:18.760 --> 0:10:21.200 I mean a good example of this is have you 0:10:21.280 --> 0:10:24.600 ever been writing or researching or doing something that's really 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:28.839 pleasurable and you just keep ignoring the signals from your 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:32.079 bladder that that it needs to be tended to and 0:10:32.120 --> 0:10:33.720 you can, Yeah, I'll get to you, I get to you. 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:35.320 And that's how I always know that I'm in a 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:38.280 flow state, because yeah, I know that's some sort of 0:10:38.320 --> 0:10:41.040 biological consequence going on right now, but I don't have 0:10:41.120 --> 0:10:43.880 time for it. I'm in the flow. And that's what's 0:10:43.960 --> 0:10:46.920 so incredible, because you are in that state of this 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:49.880 kind of black and white tones is self contained universe, 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:53.360 and it's a refuge where everything else, all the great 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:55.439 tones of life just recede into the background. And then 0:10:55.480 --> 0:10:59.200 this feels like there's some sort of fundamental element of 0:10:59.280 --> 0:11:01.920 the core of yourself that you're able to express, that 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:04.000 you have some sort of access to that. And some 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:06.880 people call it the news, right, Yeah, And of course 0:11:06.880 --> 0:11:08.559 it goes without saying that in all of this, you're 0:11:08.559 --> 0:11:12.560 shutting off that default mode network, those that, you know, 0:11:12.600 --> 0:11:15.679 the nagging voices and concerns about the past in the future. 0:11:15.920 --> 0:11:19.120 You really become the act. You become the thing you're doing. 0:11:19.400 --> 0:11:21.719 It's almost like a superhero, you know, where it's you're 0:11:21.760 --> 0:11:25.520 no longer the journalist Clark Kent. You've stripped off your 0:11:25.559 --> 0:11:27.840 your boring work clothes and you've become this this thing, 0:11:28.240 --> 0:11:31.360 this this ideal version. Yeah, and we've seen this before 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:33.600 and we've talked about it in jazz musicians who are 0:11:33.679 --> 0:11:36.120 able to dim the lights in their prefrontal cortex, that 0:11:36.200 --> 0:11:39.640 that part of your brain that is all is responsible 0:11:39.640 --> 0:11:42.439 for executive function, and we'll say all this sort of nagging, 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:45.480 annoying things like it's just really good, are you? Is 0:11:45.480 --> 0:11:47.520 that a great note that you just wrote that you 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:51.280 just played. It dims all of that in order for 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:54.600 the rest of your brain to fully engage in creation 0:11:54.640 --> 0:11:57.199 at that very moment. All Right, we're gonna take a 0:11:57.280 --> 0:11:59.079 quick break, and when we come back, we will talk 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:07.439 about who enters, flow and out much. Alright, we are 0:12:07.520 --> 0:12:09.800 back and we're gonna talk a little bit more about 0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:12.839 me how to sent me high? And Um wanted to 0:12:12.880 --> 0:12:16.680 talk about his experience sampling methods. So again within this 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:20.600 tenure global study, it's something that he employed to create 0:12:20.679 --> 0:12:23.559 at some points a virtual film strip of a person's 0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:29.040 daily activities and experiences. And we're talking about twenty respondents 0:12:29.040 --> 0:12:33.440 who were outfitted with a pager or a watch would 0:12:33.440 --> 0:12:36.400 which would go off at random times within each two 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:39.199 hours segment, and that would prompt the person to stop 0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:42.160 what they were doing right down in the book, UM, 0:12:42.240 --> 0:12:45.640 where that person was, what that person was doing, thinking 0:12:45.679 --> 0:12:48.920 about who they were with, and then that person would 0:12:49.000 --> 0:12:53.480 rate their state of consciousness on various numerical skills. So 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:57.199 what they did as they amassed something like seventy thousand 0:12:57.320 --> 0:13:01.640 pages from people and went for to all those pages 0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:05.120 at their Chicago lab, and they tried to figure out 0:13:05.120 --> 0:13:08.880 this sort of quantitative and qualitative way to get at 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:12.200 this idea of flow and come up with some statistics. Yeah, 0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:15.599 and some of the statistics are are pretty pretty impressive. 0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:19.599 Says that roughly one in five Americans claims to interflow 0:13:20.080 --> 0:13:22.520 as much as several times a day, whereas about fifteen 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:26.480 percent say they never uh entered this mode never happens 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:29.599 for them. Um, and the frequencies he says, seem to 0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:32.679 be quite stable and universal. For instance, they conducted a 0:13:33.200 --> 0:13:36.959 survey of six thousand, four hundred exty nine Germans UM 0:13:37.120 --> 0:13:40.880 and the same you know, same questioning, same same rigmarole uh, 0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:44.200 and they found that that those who entered flow off 0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:50.439 and sometimes rarely and the never don't range was around 0:13:50.440 --> 0:13:54.440 twelve percent. Yeah, so it's pretty universal here UM across 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:58.520 cultures that people experience the state of flow. And moreover, 0:13:58.840 --> 0:14:01.360 check sent me high and to his colleagues found that 0:14:01.480 --> 0:14:06.280 people reported that they felt happier when they dipped into 0:14:06.280 --> 0:14:09.079 those states to flow. In other word, their overall happiness, 0:14:09.080 --> 0:14:13.760 writing happened to be larger than their non flow state counterparts, 0:14:14.640 --> 0:14:17.880 and they found that that flow generally occurs when a 0:14:17.880 --> 0:14:20.160 person is doing his or her favorite activity. You know, 0:14:20.280 --> 0:14:23.280 so again you're you're gardening, you're engaging with your art 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:26.520 or your cooking or whatever. Uh. It also occurs though, 0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:30.600 when when one is driving, when you're talking to friends, um, 0:14:30.640 --> 0:14:34.480 a lot. Surprisingly, it occurs a lot at work, I said. 0:14:34.680 --> 0:14:37.960 Very rarely would they see people who would actually enter 0:14:38.040 --> 0:14:41.560 this flow state during passive leisure activities such as watching 0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:44.440 television or just sort of kicking back in your backyard. Now, 0:14:44.480 --> 0:14:47.000 I have read that in rare occurrences you can have 0:14:47.080 --> 0:14:50.200 a state of flow with with television, but it has 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:55.640 to be something that is so incredibly engaging that you 0:14:56.000 --> 0:15:00.240 meet the conditions of flow. Um. Now we know about 0:15:00.240 --> 0:15:02.520 television and the quality of it, So there's I would 0:15:02.560 --> 0:15:05.240 say overwhelmingly there. There may not be shows that engage 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:09.320 people to that extent except for True Detective. Yeah, I 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:11.680 was just thinking about it. Yeah, shows like like True 0:15:11.720 --> 0:15:14.280 Detective or I'm I'm really enjoying the nick right now. 0:15:15.280 --> 0:15:18.560 You you engage in these shows and you do feel 0:15:18.600 --> 0:15:21.520 sort of pulled along by their own energy. Um, and 0:15:21.560 --> 0:15:23.920 it time's easy to take that for granted, especially if 0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:26.440 you're in kind of a draft of good television. Yeah, 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:29.120 those are the worst, all right. So we talked about 0:15:29.160 --> 0:15:31.240 those conditions to flow. What are they, especially if you 0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:34.680 consider this in the context of television, something that you're watching. 0:15:34.720 --> 0:15:36.960 You have to be completely involved with what you're doing. 0:15:37.080 --> 0:15:39.720 That's one condition. Yeah. So again it's everything shut off 0:15:39.760 --> 0:15:42.680 to the point where you you're forgetting that you need 0:15:42.720 --> 0:15:45.320 to be somewhere or that you need a urinate. Yes, 0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:50.760 a sense of ecstasy of being outside everyday reality. Great 0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:53.480 inner clarity. You have a sense of what needs to 0:15:53.560 --> 0:15:56.440 be done and how to do it. Yeah, everything's like 0:15:56.440 --> 0:15:59.600 it's almost like bullet time, or like any any sequence 0:15:59.600 --> 0:16:01.640 in a film home where a hacker is doing something 0:16:01.640 --> 0:16:03.600 on a computer. They're like, oh, this is and he's 0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:05.520 in a flow state. He's just completely cut out. He's 0:16:05.560 --> 0:16:07.960 just living it. Yeah, I'm I'm doing the Sandra Bolock 0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:12.600 like crazy keyboard fingers right now Internet. Um, I love that, 0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:15.680 Like she's not even really typing real things. There. Then 0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:19.240 there's a confidence that the activity is doable, so the 0:16:19.360 --> 0:16:22.520 skills are adequate to do the task exactly. Yeah, nobody's 0:16:22.520 --> 0:16:25.080 in a flow state being thinking it might work. I 0:16:25.080 --> 0:16:28.520 don't know. No, you're you're owning it a sense of serenity, 0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:31.080 you have no worries about the self and feelings of 0:16:31.280 --> 0:16:34.680 growing beyond the boundaries of the ego. Right, that's right. 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:37.360 The default mode network is shut down. It's dim to 0:16:37.400 --> 0:16:39.960 the background and not hearing it. Yeah, it's kind of 0:16:40.000 --> 0:16:42.400 a meditative quality to it. You have a sense of 0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:49.160 timelessness and intrinsic motivation. Whatever produces flow becomes its own reward. 0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:52.040 So we're talking about in terms of work, work for 0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:55.080 work's sake. Yeah, it's one of those things where you know, 0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:57.760 somebody's writing and it's not about oh, where am I 0:16:57.760 --> 0:17:00.080 going to try and sell this short story, or or 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:02.160 you know who's gonna who's gonna read this? Or what 0:17:02.200 --> 0:17:03.720 am I gonna do with it? No, it's it's or 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:05.199 even what am I it's gonna be like when I 0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:07.399 try and edit this in a month. It's about the 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:09.880 act of writing. It's about being caught up in what 0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:11.760 you're doing. And you know, a lot of times I'll 0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:14.159 work at night because I just find that it's another 0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:17.120 part of the day that I'm productive and it allows 0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:19.120 me to kind of mull over some of the stuff 0:17:19.200 --> 0:17:22.879 that we talk about our research, and I have to 0:17:22.920 --> 0:17:24.960 tell you that I look forward to it, like I 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:27.679 sit there and think about sitting at my kitchen table 0:17:28.200 --> 0:17:31.400 and really like getting into the work and perhaps even 0:17:31.440 --> 0:17:33.880 having like a bowl of popcorn next to me, um 0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:37.920 my dinner popcorn. So it's not too surprising then that 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:41.800 one of chicks sent me high as findings is that 0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:45.520 people have more occasions of flow on the job than 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:49.560 in their free time. Yeah, this is interesting because I'm 0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:51.560 just on a surface level, it's easy to say, well, 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:53.720 you know, work is drudgery and at home that's where 0:17:53.720 --> 0:17:55.320 you're going to do the things that you really live for. 0:17:55.520 --> 0:17:59.080 But when you think about our work tasks, a lot 0:17:59.119 --> 0:18:01.840 of times those tasks are going to line up with 0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:06.680 those requirements for flow, because you're gonna have well. Well, 0:18:06.800 --> 0:18:08.520 the example that always comes to my mind when I 0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:10.879 think about this is when I worked at newspapers and 0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:14.320 I've pageinated, so I'm physically I'm not physically building it, 0:18:14.359 --> 0:18:16.760 but on a screen, and like in design, I'm building 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:19.399 a front page of the newspaper and then the interior pages. 0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:22.560 It's basically tetris with words and pictures, you know, making 0:18:22.600 --> 0:18:26.560 it all fit together in a readable sense. Um. It's 0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:29.280 not something that I was passionate about. It was something 0:18:29.320 --> 0:18:32.439 that I could do, and it was a very you know, 0:18:32.480 --> 0:18:35.320 self contained universe. Here it is on the page. Things 0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:38.560 are fitting in the page, there are rules in play, 0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:42.200 there's a definite goal in mind, and then I would 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:45.040 end up losing myself in this flow state of this. Uh, 0:18:45.119 --> 0:18:49.320 this this work task that I would never do outside 0:18:49.359 --> 0:18:52.720 of work and certainly haven't haven't done since I left newspapers. Yeah, 0:18:52.760 --> 0:18:54.919 I would say this. I've experienced the same thing with 0:18:55.000 --> 0:18:59.320 database management, putting queries together. And again there's it's matching 0:18:59.840 --> 0:19:03.080 the skill level to the challenge, you know, and kind 0:19:03.080 --> 0:19:05.720 of bumping that up and saying, can I can I 0:19:05.760 --> 0:19:07.760 tweak this a little bit more? Can I get a 0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:09.920 little bit more out of it? And it does put 0:19:10.040 --> 0:19:13.240 you squarely into that moment which I think is so 0:19:13.280 --> 0:19:16.000 important for this now chicking certainly high. Also, he does 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:18.560 point out that especially uh, you know, in in America 0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:22.240 and in the West, we we have this idea that's 0:19:22.240 --> 0:19:24.400 often passed down to us that work is not supposed 0:19:24.440 --> 0:19:27.639 to be fun or engaging or enjoyable. That it's supposed 0:19:27.680 --> 0:19:29.600 to be drudgery, and so it's easy to fall into 0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:32.080 that trap. He also adds the caveat that that, yes, 0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:34.879 there are going to be people that are stuck in 0:19:34.960 --> 0:19:37.920 jobs that do not give them any level of satisfaction 0:19:37.960 --> 0:19:40.480 and that's just an unfortunate reality. And though and oftentimes 0:19:40.560 --> 0:19:43.360 that can be difficult to get out of those uh environments. 0:19:44.040 --> 0:19:47.359 But but that, but that you do see more just 0:19:47.440 --> 0:19:49.680 based on the E s M studies that he conducted, 0:19:49.880 --> 0:19:52.120 you do see more occasions for flow on the job 0:19:52.160 --> 0:19:54.160 than in the free time, because again, there are rules 0:19:54.160 --> 0:19:55.960 in places, a task to be done, and if you 0:19:56.000 --> 0:19:58.040 have the skills to do it, then you have the 0:19:58.040 --> 0:20:00.520 possibility to interflow state. Yeah, and it is kind of 0:20:00.520 --> 0:20:02.760 a bummer if you're not into your job, you don't 0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:06.159 feel a challenge, then that could obviously create obstacles to 0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:08.639 feeling like you're in the flow state or could enter it. 0:20:08.760 --> 0:20:11.240 And some behind us say like maybe you could build 0:20:11.280 --> 0:20:14.520 in challenges or reframe it in a way that you 0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:17.840 could enter a state of flow. Um, maybe that's a 0:20:17.840 --> 0:20:22.719 bit reductionist, maybe not, but it's interesting nonetheless, and discussing 0:20:22.760 --> 0:20:28.480 it now, corporations are wild about this idea, because what 0:20:28.600 --> 0:20:30.720 happens when you're in a state of flow, You get 0:20:30.720 --> 0:20:34.280 more work done, take fewer breaks, You're you're not even 0:20:34.280 --> 0:20:39.960 bothering to urinet, you're wasting water. It's true win win 0:20:40.040 --> 0:20:44.000 for everyone. And the Mackenzie Quarterly conducted a ten year 0:20:44.080 --> 0:20:47.720 study that basically basically corroborates this. They found that top 0:20:47.760 --> 0:20:50.639 executives engaged in a state of flow, we're five times 0:20:50.640 --> 0:20:55.679 more productive than their non flow counterparts. That's five more productive. 0:20:56.480 --> 0:20:59.200 So it would make sense that people would try to 0:20:59.280 --> 0:21:01.920