1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,960 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and um, Julie, go with 4 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 1: the flow, Douglas, Yeah, that's your thing. Yeah, I mean 5 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: it really should be all of our things, right, you 6 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:26,239 Speaker 1: could go with the flow to experience what we have 7 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 1: come to know as flow states. Yeah, and uh, you know, 8 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: being in the flow creates a lot of different ideas 9 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 1: and the brain about what that is. Um, you know, 10 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 1: it's a kind of altered state. We should mention that. 11 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:43,519 Speaker 1: For me, I think about a river flowing and I 12 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: always think about that phrase, Um, don't push the river, 13 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: it moves all by itself. Now that's meant to suggest like, hey, 14 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 1: don't try to do things before you're ready to do them, 15 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: or just trying to impose your own agenda onto things. 16 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 1: But it also reminds me of flow in the sense 17 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: that you cannot push the state of flow that we 18 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: sometimes fall into. You kind of have to submit to it. Yeah. 19 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 1: The model that I always come back to is that 20 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 1: of surfing, and it's not based on extensive surfing. I 21 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: only surfed surfed once with when I was visiting a 22 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 1: friend in a way. Uh, and he insisted, you know, 23 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: all right, keep coming, come out, try surfing. I'm okay, 24 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 1: I'll try it, and you just and kept insisting, or 25 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: I keep at it, keep at it. You're not really 26 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: surfing it. You're just paddling among the waves. And I'm 27 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:31,039 Speaker 1: the whole time, I'm thinking, I really just want to 28 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 1: go back to the beach and get back on dry 29 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:35,120 Speaker 1: land because there's a lot of work and it's not 30 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: really that fun. But is anyone who's served or even 31 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: boogiebird boarded, I guess uh, I can tell you. There 32 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:44,319 Speaker 1: comes a point where you're you're you know, you're paddling, 33 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:46,319 Speaker 1: You're paddling, You're laying on that board and you're just 34 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: you're just working your butt off to keep up with 35 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: the wave. And then the wave catches you and you 36 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 1: don't have to paddle, and that's the point where you 37 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: would climb up on the board and everything because the 38 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 1: board is being propelled by the wave instead of I you. 39 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 1: And that is, for me, is what flow state feels like. 40 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 1: If I'm if I'm writing, if I'm painting, if even 41 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:09,920 Speaker 1: if I'm doing some sort of you know, a manual 42 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:13,520 Speaker 1: sort of labor task, in the backyard sometimes um, not 43 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 1: very often, but it happens, is that you reach that 44 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 1: point where you're not you know, it's almost like you're 45 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 1: not having to work at it anymore. You're you're being 46 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 1: pulled by this force that seems outside of you. Yeah. Um. 47 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 1: Dr Ned Hollowell at Harvard Medical School described it as 48 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:34,359 Speaker 1: flow being a doorway two more that most of us seek. 49 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:36,919 Speaker 1: So I like this idea, I said, you know, submitting 50 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: to it, um, And some people say they slip into it. 51 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:44,359 Speaker 1: But again, this doorway, this portal that feels like you're 52 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 1: you're just you know, you're in a different state that 53 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: you've left your body in a way. But at the 54 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 1: same time that's you're full of awareness and clarity and 55 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 1: things seem effortless, and that's this beautiful place to be. 56 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:01,920 Speaker 1: So we're going to try to explore this a little 57 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:04,919 Speaker 1: bit more today. And by the way, we have listener 58 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 1: David to thank for this. He is a lecture in 59 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 1: game design at Glasgow Caledonian University and uh, he wanted 60 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:17,400 Speaker 1: to open more of this up to us. We've talked 61 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:19,119 Speaker 1: about flow in the past, but we really haven't done 62 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 1: a deep dive on it. So it's been pretty fascinating, 63 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 1: So thank you, David. Yeah, because flow has come up 64 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 1: in the past on podcast episodes, and I feel like 65 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 1: it's a it's one of these concepts. It's not difficult 66 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 1: at all to grasp the essence off because I think 67 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 1: by some estimates, twelve percent of people would not know 68 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: what we're talking about here when we maybe just have 69 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 1: to imagine flow. But for the rest of us, flow 70 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 1: is something that at least occasionally pops up in your 71 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: life and you and you're like, yes, that is flow state. 72 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 1: That is what I want to aim for every day. 73 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: And this idea of flow, at least the idea of it, 74 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 1: not the term has been around for so long. I 75 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: mean Aristotle was trying to figure out what this is. 76 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: Abraham Maslow of maslow Hierarchy of Needs fame he called 77 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 1: these sessions of extraordinary experiences are peak experiences. And finally 78 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 1: we have someone by the name of me Hi Chick 79 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: sent me Hi who came along and really studied this 80 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:21,160 Speaker 1: in earnest Yeah, Chicks and me High, Hungarian psychology professor. 81 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 1: He immigrated the United States at the age of twenty 82 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:27,480 Speaker 1: two um Currently at Claremont Graduate University. He's the former 83 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: head of the Department of Psychology at the University of 84 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 1: Chicago and of the Department of Sociology and Anthropology at 85 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:35,679 Speaker 1: Lake Forest College. In addition to all of this, though, 86 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: he also was at one time an avid rock climber, 87 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 1: which is key, that's right, And in the seventies at 88 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:44,839 Speaker 1: the University of Chicago, he was trying to really figure 89 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 1: out what this experience was because he's climbing these rocks, right, 90 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 1: he's engaging, and he's just living in the moment. He's 91 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 1: flowing with it yep. And he says, these exceptional moments 92 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 1: are what I have called flow experiences. He says, the 93 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: metaphor of flow is one that many people have used 94 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:03,840 Speaker 1: to describe the sense of effortless action they feel in 95 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 1: moments that stand out as best in their lives. Athletes 96 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: refer to it as being in the zone, religious mystics 97 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 1: as being in ecstasy, artists and musicians as aesthetic rapture. 98 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 1: I love the aesthetic rapture. You're visited by the muse, right, 99 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:22,600 Speaker 1: the muse has has ventured into your little universe from 100 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 1: somewhere beyond and is somehow commanding your efforts. So for 101 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 1: ten years he studied this in earnest all over the 102 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 1: globe and surveyed a number of people. And we'll talk 103 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: a little bit more about his methods in a moment. 104 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 1: But um, one of the things that kept coming up 105 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 1: besides this idea of it being effortless, was this quality 106 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 1: of fluidity. And that's where he came up with that 107 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:49,279 Speaker 1: term flow. I like, so let's break it down. What 108 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 1: are the qualities of flow? Well, first of all, we've 109 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 1: got to talk about goals. There's a clear set of 110 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 1: goals that require appropriate responses. Uh And and that's that's 111 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 1: key here. Imagine rock climbing, because that's a great example 112 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:05,280 Speaker 1: to come back to. There. There's some clear goals in 113 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:07,719 Speaker 1: place here. You've got to stay attached to that rock 114 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 1: wall and not fall off. You want to move up, 115 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:13,600 Speaker 1: but not down at least until you're ready to reverse directions. 116 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 1: You want to reach from, you know, from one hand 117 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 1: hold to another, from one foothold to the next. There's 118 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:21,840 Speaker 1: a clear set of goals in place. Yeah, or think 119 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 1: of even like chess or tennis, which have a lot 120 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 1: of rules to follow. Right, it's a very black and 121 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 1: white universe, and this is something that doesn't necessarily exist 122 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:33,480 Speaker 1: out and you know, outside of the flow state, right, 123 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:36,159 Speaker 1: this black and white universe. Yeah, I mean life is 124 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 1: often really complicated where any given choice that we make, 125 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 1: we have to think, is this the best choice? Am I? 126 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:44,719 Speaker 1: Am I engaging with life correctly? Am I raising my 127 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:47,720 Speaker 1: child right? Because I'm hearing right answers and wrong answers 128 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:50,720 Speaker 1: all over the board. But then you go to the 129 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 1: checkers board, You go to the chess board, and there 130 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 1: there are a clear set of rules in play, and 131 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: and it's a it's a smaller universe. It's the universe 132 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 1: that makes a lot more sense in that self contained 133 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 1: universe would be the second quality of flow. So chick 134 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:07,840 Speaker 1: sept me High says that you know, if you perform 135 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: a religious ritual, you play a musical piece, we have 136 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: a rug all of that that that's a very self 137 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: contained universe in which you can apply those rules. Ritual 138 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 1: is key because because the whole part of this too 139 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 1: is that you're acting without questioning what should be done 140 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 1: or how it should be done to be a religious 141 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 1: ritual or this uh, this this job that you do 142 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 1: every day, there's a certain way to do it. You 143 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 1: do it well, you know that you're gonna get results. 144 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 1: From it and you just give yourself over to the activity. Now, 145 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 1: the third quality of flow would be mediate feedback. So 146 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 1: you're in it right, your your playing tenants, your playing chess, 147 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 1: you're rock climbing, and you are getting feedback from your environment, 148 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: from your brain, from your your muscle memory, from your 149 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 1: neuronal memory about what's going on and how well you're 150 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 1: performing at this task. Right, you're climbing that rock wall, 151 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: You're gonna know right away if that was a good move. 152 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 1: You know, you're gonna either either you're gonna slip a 153 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 1: little bit, or you're gonna realize, well, I'm I really 154 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 1: need to move this way up the wall. Or you're 155 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 1: playing chess, you move that piece. Uh. You know, you 156 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 1: might be engaged in all sort of a longer game 157 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 1: strategy wise, but for the most part, you're going to 158 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: find out right away if that was a wise move 159 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 1: to make right, which kind of gives you a sense 160 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 1: of control and mastery. And that leads to the fourth 161 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: quality of flow, which is a manageable challenge because, as 162 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 1: you say, if if during this feedback process you're getting 163 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 1: some information that you need to tweak things, then you 164 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: have that control and you can rise to the challenge. 165 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: So your skill level would be well matched with the 166 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: task at hand. Um, but the task would be just 167 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: difficult that you'd have to really stretch your skills without 168 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 1: snapping them in order to meet it. Yeah, like you 169 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 1: hear people about talking about going into beast mode, right, 170 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 1: like you'er knowally, if they're going into beast mode, they're 171 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 1: probably doing something that in ages their their strengths. It 172 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:04,199 Speaker 1: forces them to go to to up their act a 173 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:06,680 Speaker 1: little bit. But it's not super easy, but it but 174 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:09,959 Speaker 1: it is within reach. Um. An easy way to to 175 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 1: think about this is just think about jobs that you've done. 176 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 1: I mean, we've all had jobs. Say, uh, you've worked 177 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 1: on a factory line. Not to say that all factory 178 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: line is drudgery, but but it certainly can be, especially 179 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 1: if the task is just you know, doing one silly 180 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 1: thing after the other and there's no real flow to it. 181 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: It's just it's just monotonous and it's and it's you know, 182 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:35,559 Speaker 1: beneath your your overall abilities, uh, that is falling below 183 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:39,680 Speaker 1: the the flow state. Likewise, if you find if you're 184 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 1: thrown into if you're on a job and you're thrown 185 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: into a new task, that you really are not comfortable with, 186 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:46,680 Speaker 1: you don't know your way around a program or or 187 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 1: the office space, then it's it's it's a it's a 188 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 1: frustrating situation. And that's uh, and that's beyond the flow state, right, 189 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 1: So you have to have that thing that again is stretching, 190 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 1: that's not snapping your brain in your body. Yeah, I 191 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:02,960 Speaker 1: mean the passage of time flows into this too, right, 192 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 1: because when you're in the flow state, time just clicks 193 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 1: by like that, right, because you're just you're just sailing 194 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 1: through it. But if you're doing something just boring as well, 195 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:13,959 Speaker 1: it's gonna it seems like the day last forever. If 196 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:16,320 Speaker 1: you're frustrated at the first day of work, when you're 197 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 1: out of your element, it just seems to take forever. Well. 198 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 1: I mean a good example of this is have you 199 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 1: ever been writing or researching or doing something that's really 200 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:28,839 Speaker 1: pleasurable and you just keep ignoring the signals from your 201 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:32,079 Speaker 1: bladder that that it needs to be tended to and 202 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 1: you can, Yeah, I'll get to you, I get to you. 203 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:35,320 Speaker 1: And that's how I always know that I'm in a 204 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: flow state, because yeah, I know that's some sort of 205 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 1: biological consequence going on right now, but I don't have 206 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 1: time for it. I'm in the flow. And that's what's 207 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 1: so incredible, because you are in that state of this 208 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 1: kind of black and white tones is self contained universe, 209 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 1: and it's a refuge where everything else, all the great 210 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:55,439 Speaker 1: tones of life just recede into the background. And then 211 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 1: this feels like there's some sort of fundamental element of 212 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: the core of yourself that you're able to express, that 213 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 1: you have some sort of access to that. And some 214 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 1: people call it the news, right, Yeah, And of course 215 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:08,559 Speaker 1: it goes without saying that in all of this, you're 216 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:12,560 Speaker 1: shutting off that default mode network, those that, you know, 217 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,679 Speaker 1: the nagging voices and concerns about the past in the future. 218 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 1: You really become the act. You become the thing you're doing. 219 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:21,719 Speaker 1: It's almost like a superhero, you know, where it's you're 220 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 1: no longer the journalist Clark Kent. You've stripped off your 221 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 1: your boring work clothes and you've become this this thing, 222 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 1: this this ideal version. Yeah, and we've seen this before 223 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 1: and we've talked about it in jazz musicians who are 224 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: able to dim the lights in their prefrontal cortex, that 225 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: that part of your brain that is all is responsible 226 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:42,439 Speaker 1: for executive function, and we'll say all this sort of nagging, 227 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 1: annoying things like it's just really good, are you? Is 228 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 1: that a great note that you just wrote that you 229 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 1: just played. It dims all of that in order for 230 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 1: the rest of your brain to fully engage in creation 231 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:57,199 Speaker 1: at that very moment. All Right, we're gonna take a 232 00:11:57,280 --> 00:11:59,079 Speaker 1: quick break, and when we come back, we will talk 233 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:07,439 Speaker 1: about who enters, flow and out much. Alright, we are 234 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 1: back and we're gonna talk a little bit more about 235 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:12,839 Speaker 1: me how to sent me high? And Um wanted to 236 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:16,680 Speaker 1: talk about his experience sampling methods. So again within this 237 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 1: tenure global study, it's something that he employed to create 238 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:23,559 Speaker 1: at some points a virtual film strip of a person's 239 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 1: daily activities and experiences. And we're talking about twenty respondents 240 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 1: who were outfitted with a pager or a watch would 241 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 1: which would go off at random times within each two 242 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:39,199 Speaker 1: hours segment, and that would prompt the person to stop 243 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 1: what they were doing right down in the book, UM, 244 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 1: where that person was, what that person was doing, thinking 245 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 1: about who they were with, and then that person would 246 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 1: rate their state of consciousness on various numerical skills. So 247 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:57,199 Speaker 1: what they did as they amassed something like seventy thousand 248 00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 1: pages from people and went for to all those pages 249 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 1: at their Chicago lab, and they tried to figure out 250 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 1: this sort of quantitative and qualitative way to get at 251 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:12,200 Speaker 1: this idea of flow and come up with some statistics. Yeah, 252 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:15,599 Speaker 1: and some of the statistics are are pretty pretty impressive. 253 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:19,599 Speaker 1: Says that roughly one in five Americans claims to interflow 254 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 1: as much as several times a day, whereas about fifteen 255 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 1: percent say they never uh entered this mode never happens 256 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:29,599 Speaker 1: for them. Um, and the frequencies he says, seem to 257 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:32,679 Speaker 1: be quite stable and universal. For instance, they conducted a 258 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:36,959 Speaker 1: survey of six thousand, four hundred exty nine Germans UM 259 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: and the same you know, same questioning, same same rigmarole uh, 260 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:44,200 Speaker 1: and they found that that those who entered flow off 261 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:50,439 Speaker 1: and sometimes rarely and the never don't range was around 262 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 1: twelve percent. Yeah, so it's pretty universal here UM across 263 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: cultures that people experience the state of flow. And moreover, 264 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: check sent me high and to his colleagues found that 265 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 1: people reported that they felt happier when they dipped into 266 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:09,079 Speaker 1: those states to flow. In other word, their overall happiness, 267 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 1: writing happened to be larger than their non flow state counterparts, 268 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 1: and they found that that flow generally occurs when a 269 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 1: person is doing his or her favorite activity. You know, 270 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 1: so again you're you're gardening, you're engaging with your art 271 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 1: or your cooking or whatever. Uh. It also occurs though, 272 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 1: when when one is driving, when you're talking to friends, um, 273 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 1: a lot. Surprisingly, it occurs a lot at work, I said. 274 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 1: Very rarely would they see people who would actually enter 275 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 1: this flow state during passive leisure activities such as watching 276 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 1: television or just sort of kicking back in your backyard. Now, 277 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 1: I have read that in rare occurrences you can have 278 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: a state of flow with with television, but it has 279 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 1: to be something that is so incredibly engaging that you 280 00:14:56,000 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 1: meet the conditions of flow. Um. Now we know about 281 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 1: television and the quality of it, So there's I would 282 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: say overwhelmingly there. There may not be shows that engage 283 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 1: people to that extent except for True Detective. Yeah, I 284 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 1: was just thinking about it. Yeah, shows like like True 285 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 1: Detective or I'm I'm really enjoying the nick right now. 286 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 1: You you engage in these shows and you do feel 287 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 1: sort of pulled along by their own energy. Um, and 288 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 1: it time's easy to take that for granted, especially if 289 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 1: you're in kind of a draft of good television. Yeah, 290 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: those are the worst, all right. So we talked about 291 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 1: those conditions to flow. What are they, especially if you 292 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 1: consider this in the context of television, something that you're watching. 293 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 1: You have to be completely involved with what you're doing. 294 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: That's one condition. Yeah. So again it's everything shut off 295 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 1: to the point where you you're forgetting that you need 296 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 1: to be somewhere or that you need a urinate. Yes, 297 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 1: a sense of ecstasy of being outside everyday reality. Great 298 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 1: inner clarity. You have a sense of what needs to 299 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 1: be done and how to do it. Yeah, everything's like 300 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 1: it's almost like bullet time, or like any any sequence 301 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 1: in a film home where a hacker is doing something 302 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 1: on a computer. They're like, oh, this is and he's 303 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 1: in a flow state. He's just completely cut out. He's 304 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 1: just living it. Yeah, I'm I'm doing the Sandra Bolock 305 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 1: like crazy keyboard fingers right now Internet. Um, I love that, 306 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 1: Like she's not even really typing real things. There. Then 307 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 1: there's a confidence that the activity is doable, so the 308 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 1: skills are adequate to do the task exactly. Yeah, nobody's 309 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 1: in a flow state being thinking it might work. I 310 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: don't know. No, you're you're owning it a sense of serenity, 311 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 1: you have no worries about the self and feelings of 312 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 1: growing beyond the boundaries of the ego. Right, that's right. 313 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 1: The default mode network is shut down. It's dim to 314 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: the background and not hearing it. Yeah, it's kind of 315 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: a meditative quality to it. You have a sense of 316 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 1: timelessness and intrinsic motivation. Whatever produces flow becomes its own reward. 317 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 1: So we're talking about in terms of work, work for 318 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 1: work's sake. Yeah, it's one of those things where you know, 319 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 1: somebody's writing and it's not about oh, where am I 320 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:00,080 Speaker 1: going to try and sell this short story, or or 321 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 1: you know who's gonna who's gonna read this? Or what 322 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 1: am I gonna do with it? No, it's it's or 323 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:05,199 Speaker 1: even what am I it's gonna be like when I 324 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:07,399 Speaker 1: try and edit this in a month. It's about the 325 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:09,880 Speaker 1: act of writing. It's about being caught up in what 326 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: you're doing. And you know, a lot of times I'll 327 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:14,159 Speaker 1: work at night because I just find that it's another 328 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:17,120 Speaker 1: part of the day that I'm productive and it allows 329 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:19,120 Speaker 1: me to kind of mull over some of the stuff 330 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,879 Speaker 1: that we talk about our research, and I have to 331 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 1: tell you that I look forward to it, like I 332 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:27,679 Speaker 1: sit there and think about sitting at my kitchen table 333 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:31,400 Speaker 1: and really like getting into the work and perhaps even 334 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:33,880 Speaker 1: having like a bowl of popcorn next to me, um 335 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:37,920 Speaker 1: my dinner popcorn. So it's not too surprising then that 336 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 1: one of chicks sent me high as findings is that 337 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: people have more occasions of flow on the job than 338 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 1: in their free time. Yeah, this is interesting because I'm 339 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 1: just on a surface level, it's easy to say, well, 340 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 1: you know, work is drudgery and at home that's where 341 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 1: you're going to do the things that you really live for. 342 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 1: But when you think about our work tasks, a lot 343 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 1: of times those tasks are going to line up with 344 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:06,680 Speaker 1: those requirements for flow, because you're gonna have well. Well, 345 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 1: the example that always comes to my mind when I 346 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:10,879 Speaker 1: think about this is when I worked at newspapers and 347 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: I've pageinated, so I'm physically I'm not physically building it, 348 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 1: but on a screen, and like in design, I'm building 349 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:19,399 Speaker 1: a front page of the newspaper and then the interior pages. 350 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 1: It's basically tetris with words and pictures, you know, making 351 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 1: it all fit together in a readable sense. Um. It's 352 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 1: not something that I was passionate about. It was something 353 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:32,439 Speaker 1: that I could do, and it was a very you know, 354 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 1: self contained universe. Here it is on the page. Things 355 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 1: are fitting in the page, there are rules in play, 356 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:42,200 Speaker 1: there's a definite goal in mind, and then I would 357 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 1: end up losing myself in this flow state of this. Uh, 358 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 1: this this work task that I would never do outside 359 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 1: of work and certainly haven't haven't done since I left newspapers. Yeah, 360 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:54,919 Speaker 1: I would say this. I've experienced the same thing with 361 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 1: database management, putting queries together. And again there's it's matching 362 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 1: the skill level to the challenge, you know, and kind 363 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 1: of bumping that up and saying, can I can I 364 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 1: tweak this a little bit more? Can I get a 365 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:09,920 Speaker 1: little bit more out of it? And it does put 366 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 1: you squarely into that moment which I think is so 367 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 1: important for this now chicking certainly high. Also, he does 368 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 1: point out that especially uh, you know, in in America 369 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 1: and in the West, we we have this idea that's 370 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:24,400 Speaker 1: often passed down to us that work is not supposed 371 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,639 Speaker 1: to be fun or engaging or enjoyable. That it's supposed 372 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 1: to be drudgery, and so it's easy to fall into 373 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 1: that trap. He also adds the caveat that that, yes, 374 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:34,879 Speaker 1: there are going to be people that are stuck in 375 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:37,920 Speaker 1: jobs that do not give them any level of satisfaction 376 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 1: and that's just an unfortunate reality. And though and oftentimes 377 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:43,360 Speaker 1: that can be difficult to get out of those uh environments. 378 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:47,359 Speaker 1: But but that, but that you do see more just 379 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:49,680 Speaker 1: based on the E s M studies that he conducted, 380 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:52,120 Speaker 1: you do see more occasions for flow on the job 381 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:54,160 Speaker 1: than in the free time, because again, there are rules 382 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 1: in places, a task to be done, and if you 383 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 1: have the skills to do it, then you have the 384 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: possibility to interflow state. Yeah, and it is kind of 385 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 1: a bummer if you're not into your job, you don't 386 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:06,159 Speaker 1: feel a challenge, then that could obviously create obstacles to 387 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:08,639 Speaker 1: feeling like you're in the flow state or could enter it. 388 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 1: And some behind us say like maybe you could build 389 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 1: in challenges or reframe it in a way that you 390 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 1: could enter a state of flow. Um, maybe that's a 391 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:22,719 Speaker 1: bit reductionist, maybe not, but it's interesting nonetheless, and discussing 392 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 1: it now, corporations are wild about this idea, because what 393 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 1: happens when you're in a state of flow, You get 394 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 1: more work done, take fewer breaks, You're you're not even 395 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:39,960 Speaker 1: bothering to urinet, you're wasting water. It's true win win 396 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 1: for everyone. And the Mackenzie Quarterly conducted a ten year 397 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 1: study that basically basically corroborates this. They found that top 398 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:50,639 Speaker 1: executives engaged in a state of flow, we're five times 399 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:55,679 Speaker 1: more productive than their non flow counterparts. That's five more productive. 400 00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:59,200 Speaker 1: So it would make sense that people would try to 401 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:01,920 Speaker 1: game this, and and I think about gaining it, think 402 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 1: about video games, which we'll talk about in a moment, 403 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,879 Speaker 1: but I also think about something called the Flow Genome Project. 404 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:13,399 Speaker 1: And this was founded this project by Stephen Coottler, who 405 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:18,160 Speaker 1: is a journalist, a novelist and he wrote The Rise 406 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,879 Speaker 1: of Superman, and by Jamie Wheel, the director of the 407 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 1: program of the Flow Genome Project. Now it says genome, 408 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 1: but really there's nothing, there's nothing here to do with 409 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:31,679 Speaker 1: genetic material um. They're talking about it more in a 410 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:35,200 Speaker 1: way of trying to get the core components of flow 411 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:40,439 Speaker 1: defined and decoded. And what they say is that you 412 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:43,480 Speaker 1: could do this, you can you can take flow and 413 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 1: you can really bump up your performance, And they used 414 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 1: athletes to study this. Now, Cotler personally got involved with 415 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:53,640 Speaker 1: this project because he had lyne disease and he says 416 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:55,399 Speaker 1: that he was bed ridden for a couple of years 417 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,639 Speaker 1: and as a way to try to rehabilitate, he began 418 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 1: to you surf. And as a science journalist, he was 419 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:07,639 Speaker 1: astounded to find himself and what he felt like was 420 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 1: at this magical moment and not being someone who would 421 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:14,639 Speaker 1: just say, oh, I haven't had a magical mystical moment, 422 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 1: he tried to figure out what was going on and 423 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 1: that's when he really started to do a ton of 424 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 1: research into state of flow. Now, Coler, writing in his 425 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 1: book of the Rise of Superman, found a couple of 426 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:29,920 Speaker 1: different things about athletes that's really interesting. Um. He said 427 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 1: that the fight or flight response, also known as the 428 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 1: adrenaline rush, would seem to be opposite of flow, okay, 429 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 1: but he said that the two highs are actually linked. 430 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:44,440 Speaker 1: He says that risk heightens focus and flow follows focus, 431 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:47,200 Speaker 1: and he seems he says that uh fight or flight 432 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 1: response will actually prime the body chemically and psychologically for 433 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 1: the flow state and he said that athletes report moving 434 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 1: through one to get to the other. Now, he's got 435 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 1: a Ted talk if you guys are interested in learning 436 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 1: more about that, and he also has a Google talk 437 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 1: that he gave. But just to kind of give a 438 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 1: quick and dirty of the neuro anatomy as they call it, 439 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 1: of flow, let's talk about four stages here. Jamie Wheel 440 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 1: discusses this in length, and he says that at the 441 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,680 Speaker 1: outset of flow, we're faced with a problem. Right, especially 442 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 1: in the context of an athlete. Okay, you want to 443 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:21,440 Speaker 1: make a better time than needed before, you want to 444 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:24,680 Speaker 1: win the race, or it's just yeah, they're the gun 445 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 1: has gone off and it's time to run, or there's 446 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 1: a there's a football player coming at you and he's 447 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 1: trying to tack with you. Let's call it the panic 448 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 1: moment um. This is when your prefrontal cortex, the executive 449 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:37,520 Speaker 1: function of your brain, wants to solve that problem. And 450 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:42,639 Speaker 1: you have the amygdola very active amygdola processing fear fear of, 451 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 1: and you've got your brain toggling between these states, and 452 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: you have beta waves which are really active going on 453 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,160 Speaker 1: at the same time. Now, he says that especially in athletes, 454 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 1: um you have the person then trying to confront that 455 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 1: fear and trying to instill what you might call a 456 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 1: relaxation response, and in doing so, taking a breath and 457 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 1: trying to cultivate that response. You have nitric oxide flushing 458 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 1: away cordisal, which we know is a stress hormone, and 459 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 1: nora EP and f ROM and those faster beta waves 460 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 1: are then replaced by these slower alpha ones, and you 461 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 1: have dopamine, and you have endorphins showing up on the scene. 462 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 1: And now now the conditions are just right for you 463 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:29,400 Speaker 1: to go into a state of flow, and he says 464 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,880 Speaker 1: that you get these um a deeper, slower state going 465 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,400 Speaker 1: on in your brain. Now, imagine this to an athlete 466 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,920 Speaker 1: who is moving maybe at top speeds. All of this 467 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 1: is going on. To think that your brain is now 468 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 1: moving into theta waves and then into gamma waves rolling in, 469 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 1: and he says that this is when your brain kind 470 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 1: of gets those lightning bolts of insight or that sense 471 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,360 Speaker 1: that you're just experiencing something mystical or great, or you're 472 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,679 Speaker 1: at the peak. Now he says that it doesn't necessarily stop. 473 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:03,680 Speaker 1: They air that in order for you to actually game 474 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 1: that performance, you have to let that experience coalesced. And 475 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,520 Speaker 1: how do you do that? You gotta sleep, of course, right, 476 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 1: and you let all of that stuff marinate your brain 477 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:16,200 Speaker 1: for a while. And as we know, um with performance 478 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,200 Speaker 1: in any activity, if your brain dreams about it, you're 479 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,919 Speaker 1: probably gonna be able to boost your performance, especially if 480 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 1: you're aware that these are the states that inform flow 481 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,360 Speaker 1: in performance. Yeah, and this is a fight or flyping 482 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 1: to it. It makes perfect sense even outside of the 483 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,399 Speaker 1: context of sports, because you know, you're at the playground, 484 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 1: your kids on a ladder or something and they start 485 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 1: to fall. You don't think about what you're doing. It 486 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,400 Speaker 1: just kicks in. You do it. It's in, you enter 487 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:42,639 Speaker 1: into kind of a mini flow state just to do 488 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,399 Speaker 1: what needs to be done. And it's interesting that you 489 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: say that, because when Cotler and we all are talking 490 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:51,479 Speaker 1: about this, they're talking about it in a kind of 491 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:56,720 Speaker 1: survival framework that basically athletes and other people are tapping 492 00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 1: into this idea of flight or fight survival, getting into 493 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:02,120 Speaker 1: that flow, getting to that moment where you can really 494 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 1: control it. Now, what Cotler says is that this kind 495 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:09,639 Speaker 1: of high can be problematic because it can become addictive 496 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 1: and just to to Um, step back from this for 497 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 1: a second. I should mention that they're coming at this 498 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:20,280 Speaker 1: from a very very narrow framework. They're talking about athletes 499 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,439 Speaker 1: are talking about gaming survival instincts. There are other types 500 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 1: of flow, and so when I talk about coming or 501 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 1: thinking about working on my stuff at the kitchen table, 502 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,200 Speaker 1: that's a kind of that's a nice version of flow, right, 503 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 1: that's like, oh, that's pretty much like Kitton farts and rainbows. Um, 504 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 1: I'm not in the other state of flow where maybe 505 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:42,440 Speaker 1: I didn't have enough time to prepare for the podcast, 506 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 1: and now it's the eleventh hour and I've got to 507 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 1: get it done da da, and I have to force 508 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 1: myself into flow or else well, you know, you frame 509 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 1: that as a negative flow, but it's still flow, and 510 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 1: it's still you still end up losing yourself in the moment. 511 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 1: Like I mentioned newspapers earlier, and like newspapers, by the 512 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,479 Speaker 1: very nature our last minute, I mean, you're just always 513 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:02,679 Speaker 1: dealing with those deadlines. You're we're working up to the 514 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,640 Speaker 1: last minute, you're over the deadline, but you're still learning 515 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 1: that flow state to get it done well. And when 516 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:11,639 Speaker 1: I worked at a weekly I definitely would experience that high. 517 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,119 Speaker 1: But it is not my preference, however, to come to 518 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 1: the table like that. Um. Now, again, this is very 519 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,160 Speaker 1: a narrow framework that these guys are are working from. 520 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:23,879 Speaker 1: This is very new. They even say this sort of 521 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 1: neuro anatomy of flow is yet to be fully informed. 522 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,160 Speaker 1: But I should say that it does give us an 523 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:38,000 Speaker 1: even better idea of why there is so much cognitive 524 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 1: flow academia talk involved in game design. Yeah. I mean, indeed, 525 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 1: think back to again to the qualities of flow and 526 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 1: what what kind of what it takes to get to 527 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,679 Speaker 1: a flow state. You need a self contained world, you 528 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,160 Speaker 1: need rules in place, you need a black and white 529 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,199 Speaker 1: idea of what's good and what's bad. I mean, think 530 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:57,480 Speaker 1: about any video game that you have ever engaged with. 531 00:27:57,680 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 1: You're dealing with that kind of a system. Is a 532 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,480 Speaker 1: sell contain little world, maybe a sandbox world, their rules 533 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 1: in place. There's good guys, there's bad guys. There's things 534 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 1: you're trying to achieve. They're tassie, You're you're clicking off 535 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 1: the list. And most importantly of all, the difficulty is 536 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,240 Speaker 1: not too great. Um. And if it is too great, 537 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:16,359 Speaker 1: you can probably go into a little menu and scale 538 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 1: it down a bit. Until just the level that you're 539 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 1: comfortable with. Yeah, are game designer at listener, David says, 540 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 1: this is why many big commercial games designers try to 541 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: deliberately foster flow in the player, because why, well, the 542 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 1: more flow you're in, the more you're gonna play that game, 543 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 1: and the more you're gonna buy. Right, So it would 544 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 1: make sense that they they've created this world in which 545 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:43,240 Speaker 1: survival is also paramount um and keeps you within the 546 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 1: confines of it. So you're stuck in the flow, but 547 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 1: in a good way. Yeah, I mean for the most part. 548 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 1: I mean, certainly, you know, we talked about early about 549 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 1: the possibility of addiction to the flow state, and certainly 550 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,560 Speaker 1: there are people who deal with with with gaming addiction 551 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 1: where that game just becomes the flow state you during 552 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 1: that game is just so nice and so addictive you 553 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:05,680 Speaker 1: just keep coming back to it again and again, to 554 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 1: the detriment of other things in your life. For that matter, 555 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:12,000 Speaker 1: you can easily imagine want somebody who has become addicted 556 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 1: to the flow state at work to the point where 557 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 1: they're neglecting other aspects of their lives. Now you have 558 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:20,320 Speaker 1: to point out that children are constantly engaged in a 559 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 1: state of flow. Of course they are. And Dr Seuss 560 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 1: actually described adults once as obsolete children, so in a way, 561 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,520 Speaker 1: it's it's us getting back to that sense of play. 562 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 1: And I wanted to read a quick thing from Charlie Hone. 563 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 1: He's an author who's um entered the Ted Gladiator Arena 564 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: himself to talk about this, and he wrote a blog 565 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 1: entry for the School of Life and says, I have 566 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 1: to approach work as play. Otherwise my work sucks when 567 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 1: I tackle a problem with a sense of play voluntarily 568 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 1: because I'm inherently attracted to it. My creativity and optimism 569 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 1: and happiness, or I become fascinated with the world, I 570 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 1: fall in love with people, and whoever I'm working with 571 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 1: helps me make the game more fun or positive energy 572 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 1: becomes contagious. That's where my best works has come from. 573 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 1: And I thought, well, that's a nice way to perhaps 574 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 1: cap offs and flow. Yeah. Hey, so there you go 575 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 1: the flow state. As always, be sure to check out 576 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. That's where you'll 577 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 1: find all the podcast episodes, all the blog posts, all 578 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:22,280 Speaker 1: the videos, as well as links out to our various 579 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 1: social media accounts. And hey, we would love to know 580 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 1: about your flow experiences are There are certain times of 581 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:29,680 Speaker 1: the day that you get into the flow, or certain 582 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 1: sort of things that you do that are sure to 583 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 1: put you into that state. Please share it with us, 584 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 1: and you can do so by writing an email to 585 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 1: blow the mind at how stuff works dot com. For 586 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics, visit how 587 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com.