Speaker 1: Trust me?
Speaker 2: Do you trust me? Right?
Speaker 3: Everly?
Speaker 4: And you astray?
Speaker 1: Trust? This is the truth, the only truth.
Speaker 2: If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't
Speaker 2: welcome to trust me. The podcast about cults, extreme belief
Speaker 2: and manipulation from two American girls have actually experienced it.
Speaker 4: I Am Lola Blanc and I Am Megan Elizabeth.
Speaker 2: Today's part two of our interview with the wonderful Aqina Cox,
Speaker 2: artist and writer who grew up in the Moonies or
Speaker 2: at the Unification Church. She is going to share more
Speaker 2: about her experiences in the church, including its physical punishment rituals,
Speaker 2: and where the church stands now.
Speaker 3: We'll then transition into discussing the cult like patterns of
Speaker 3: the current state of American politics and will debate how
Speaker 3: to approach political disagreements with loved ones. We'll discuss her
Speaker 3: article for Salon in which she exposes how the Trump
Speaker 3: administration employs many of the same tactics used by Reverend
Speaker 3: Moon and how high control groups tend to choose group
Speaker 3: to scapegoat for their problems.
Speaker 2: Plus the demonization of immigrants and trans folks, the realities
Speaker 2: of ice kidnappings, and how the failures of political leadership
Speaker 2: to effectively address income inequality in America created an opening
Speaker 2: for demagogues to thrive. It's a chunky one, it's a
Speaker 2: meadia one. Indeed, for those who want to read Aquina's article,
Speaker 2: it is called as a former mooney, Trump's cult tactics
Speaker 2: are eerily familiar, and she did write that for Salon,
Speaker 2: So go ahead and read that if you would like.
Speaker 4: It's great.
Speaker 2: Before we get into all things America with Aquina Megan,
Speaker 2: what's your cultiest.
Speaker 1: Thing of the week.
Speaker 3: Okay, so this week we recorded my favorite murder.
Speaker 4: We got to be on the podcast.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yay.
Speaker 3: And I have to admit there was this deep fear
Speaker 3: inside of me that I would die before it happened.
Speaker 3: And it's a very like two by two belief that
Speaker 3: which is the group that I was raised in, that like,
Speaker 3: before you you do something that maybe would bring more
Speaker 3: attention and a negative light, you would die.
Speaker 1: Does that make sense? Yes? So I was like, there's
Speaker 1: no way.
Speaker 3: I'm like, even though I don't believe in it, there
Speaker 3: was still this fear in me that something would happen.
Speaker 3: And I'm like, like, let's say I do die soon. Okay,
Speaker 3: let's hope not. Let's hope not, but people in the
Speaker 3: two by twos would say it's because I was speaking
Speaker 3: out about it. And this is annoying to me because
Speaker 3: I'm very clumsy. Like the other day, I had my
Speaker 3: window open, and I have one of those windows that
Speaker 3: just open straight out it like you could fall out
Speaker 3: of it, you know, And I was like trying to
Speaker 3: pick up my cat wearing cowboy booths, and I almost
Speaker 3: fella out of the hold. My god, and I would
Speaker 3: have I would have literally died, and it would have
Speaker 3: been instead of just, you know, slightly tragic and kind
Speaker 3: of funny, a lesson to be learned at conventions forever.
Speaker 1: And another annoying thing.
Speaker 3: For the two by twos is like whenever there's a tragedy,
Speaker 3: they're like, but everybody, all the friends, that's what they're called,
Speaker 3: we're safe.
Speaker 4: And it's like, well, what about the people who weren't.
Speaker 5: Or or or if you die like leaving a convention
Speaker 5: or going to a convention or something, it's like, oh,
Speaker 5: that's so great they died on their way to Like like,
Speaker 5: it's just the dumble, you know what I mean.
Speaker 4: It's never fair. It's like if you died when you
Speaker 4: were saying something.
Speaker 3: Bad about the two by twos, it's because you were
Speaker 3: saying something bad and if you die going to do
Speaker 3: something great. For the two by twos, it's because God
Speaker 3: is like rewarding you.
Speaker 2: It's just, oh, I was I thought you were going
Speaker 2: to say, if you died going to something, it was
Speaker 2: because Satan was intervening and trying to stop you from
Speaker 2: doing the good work, which is I think what I
Speaker 2: want to have been told.
Speaker 1: No, it's like, well maybe both.
Speaker 3: I just remember these two boys died leaving a convention
Speaker 3: one year, which is like basically convention as like two
Speaker 3: x two's four day long meeting. I can't it's a
Speaker 3: whole other conversation, but they'd leaving it, and it was
Speaker 3: very like you wanted to die leaving convention. Ah yeah, no, yeah,
Speaker 3: I hate that because you were like, I'm I've been
Speaker 3: filled with all these things for four days. I've been
Speaker 3: away from the world for four days. Like take me
Speaker 3: now before I send again. Wow.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 3: So just as like a clumsy person, maybe not the
Speaker 3: best driver, maybe you know a few things that I
Speaker 3: could really work on. I just want people to know
Speaker 3: this is a PSA. If I die, it's because of me.
Speaker 4: Now I'm worried about you.
Speaker 2: Now I feel like we're in final destination and I
Speaker 2: have to like be looking around every corner to see
Speaker 2: if you're going to trip on a knife or something.
Speaker 3: Well, my cat and I did come to the conclusion
Speaker 3: that the windows shouldn't be open that far.
Speaker 1: We're not going to do that anymore.
Speaker 2: And for the record, listeners, she lives in the hills
Speaker 2: like it's it's not like just the ground outside like
Speaker 2: she would die. So okay, you for real need like
Speaker 2: some screens or something that's wild.
Speaker 1: I know, I know.
Speaker 3: So that's my cultiest thing of the week. What about you,
Speaker 3: what's your cultist thing in the week?
Speaker 2: Once again, and this will be a pattern for me,
Speaker 2: listeners will discover My actual cultiest thing of the week
Speaker 2: is America and is concern about a lot of things
Speaker 2: going on in America and in Gaza where people who
Speaker 2: are seeking just simply to feed their families as they
Speaker 2: are starving or getting shot, and the US, of course
Speaker 2: is still condoning it and paying for a lot of it.
Speaker 2: So please call your representatives and tell them that you
Speaker 2: would like that to stop. But besides that, I was
Speaker 2: learning about a part of history that actually I think
Speaker 2: MFM listeners will probably be familiar with, but I was not.
Speaker 4: Which is the New England vampire panic. Do you know
Speaker 4: about this?
Speaker 1: Okay?
Speaker 3: You you were talking to me about it the other day.
Speaker 3: Tell me more, because no, I don't, okay.
Speaker 2: So it's not exactly like this Salem Witch Trials because
Speaker 2: in the Salem Witch Trials, obviously they killed a fuck
Speaker 2: ton of people who didn't need to die. This was
Speaker 2: more like just messing with people's bodies after death. And
Speaker 2: now I understand more the context for the film No
Speaker 2: s Feratu, because when I was watching it, I was
Speaker 2: like disease and vampires. I'm confused, but now it makes
Speaker 2: more sense to me. So New Englanders in the late
Speaker 2: eighteenth and early nineteenth century believed in vampires due to
Speaker 2: the tuberculosis epidemic, and so they thought that what they
Speaker 2: had to do was go into these like corpses coffins
Speaker 2: and get them out and like dismember them to stop
Speaker 2: the spread of disease, because they thought that people who
Speaker 2: had died were coming out at night and turning everybody
Speaker 2: into vampires.
Speaker 3: But it was actually just tuberculosis. Okay, So that combines
Speaker 3: like zombies for me in a way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it was like for some reason the lore
Speaker 2: had landed on like, oh, these are vampires who come
Speaker 2: out at night and wow, yeah, but it is similar.
Speaker 2: And that was one of the things that confused me
Speaker 2: about No Saratu because I was like, what lare are
Speaker 2: we choosing here? But it's because of this part of
Speaker 2: history that I did not understand.
Speaker 3: Wow, I mean imagine that being part of your nightly routine.
Speaker 1: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: Rituals included burning organs and beheading corpses to prevent vampires
Speaker 2: from rising again.
Speaker 1: Yikes.
Speaker 2: So it was because okay, family members had symptoms like
Speaker 2: with an ashen appearance and sunken eyes, and sometimes blood
Speaker 2: would drip from their mouths and it was spreading from
Speaker 2: person to person. So like that was where the science
Speaker 2: was at that time, Like, oh, must be vampires.
Speaker 4: Damn fascinating. Right.
Speaker 2: There's one story about a Rhode Island farmer named George
Speaker 2: Brown who watched consumption kill his wife and then his
Speaker 2: two daughters, and then his son became ill.
Speaker 1: So George I know.
Speaker 2: So then the villagers were like, yo, your family's probably vampires.
Speaker 2: Let us take your wife and daughter's bodies out. So
Speaker 2: the wife and one of the daughters, they were just bones.
Speaker 2: But then the other one, the other girl, had died
Speaker 2: in midwinter, and she was like partly preserved, and her
Speaker 2: fingernails and hair seemed to have grown, which that's just
Speaker 2: like a trick of what happens to your body as
Speaker 2: your decomposing. Anyway, they were certain they'd found their vampire.
Speaker 2: Cut her heart out burned. It had him drink the
Speaker 2: ashes and hope that he'd recover, but then, of course
Speaker 2: he also got.
Speaker 4: Tuberculous and died.
Speaker 3: George Brown has the worst life I've ever had.
Speaker 4: I know, I never It's so tragic.
Speaker 2: Talk about like a mass delusion and like or mass
Speaker 2: hysteria and like CULTI group panic.
Speaker 3: Is this going viral on TikTok or something because of
Speaker 3: the film?
Speaker 5: Like?
Speaker 1: Why why is everybody talking about this?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 2: I don't think they are. I think I was just
Speaker 2: looking it up for something I'm writing. I just liked
Speaker 2: to see because I almost talked about it with Karen
Speaker 2: and Georgia. But I was like, I bet you they've
Speaker 2: covered it, and I googled it and of course they've
Speaker 2: covered it, They've covered everything. But I had never heard
Speaker 2: about it, and as someone who's ancestor died in prison
Speaker 2: for being a witch in Salem.
Speaker 4: Really, yes, yes, oh my god.
Speaker 2: It was like it was like twenty years after the
Speaker 2: like main panic and she was old, like she just
Speaker 2: died in prison, but the reason she had been in
Speaker 2: prison was because she was accused of being a witch. Oh,
Speaker 2: oh my god, guys, I'm i a witch definitely. Well,
Speaker 2: speaking of culty pieces of American history and culture. Yes,
Speaker 2: should we transition into talking to Aquina about that very
Speaker 2: thing in the modern era.
Speaker 1: Let's do it.
Speaker 2: We are back again with Aqina Cox. We were talking
Speaker 2: last week about how the entire medical establishment was sort
Speaker 2: of looked upon with suspicion.
Speaker 4: Let's get right back into it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is fascinating stuff. Part one with you everybody
Speaker 3: needs to go listen to. But essentially we were talking
Speaker 3: about the group the Moonies that you are part of,
Speaker 3: and it sounds like therapy in particular was kind of
Speaker 3: off the table for you.
Speaker 1: What was it that brought you in to it?
Speaker 6: Finally, I have to say something that I think I forgot,
Speaker 6: which is that instead of going to doctors or therapists,
Speaker 6: if you had a real problem, you would go and
Speaker 6: get yourself beaten up.
Speaker 4: Excuse me.
Speaker 6: Yeah, the Unification Church is so insane. There's like a
Speaker 6: giant grab bag and every time you put your hand in,
Speaker 6: there's gonna be something else crazy coming up. So it
Speaker 6: was like beating the bad spirits out of your body
Speaker 6: on your mind.
Speaker 4: And spirits were what would cause illness?
Speaker 1: Was that? So who would beat you up?
Speaker 6: So sometimes you would go and and you would just
Speaker 6: like there'd be a song playing and you would hit yourself, okay,
Speaker 6: And then sometimes it would be like people around you.
Speaker 6: And sometimes it would be like an auntie just like
Speaker 6: wailing on people. And then I've heard I've heard that
Speaker 6: it could get like way worse, which I know it
Speaker 6: already sounds very bad, but like they would like beat
Speaker 6: up people who like had disabilities or like people or
Speaker 6: just like really injure people while they were hitting them.
Speaker 1: So that was therapy. Yeah, okay, wow.
Speaker 2: Would it be people who had like what if someone
Speaker 2: had cancer?
Speaker 4: Would that also of course?
Speaker 6: Or it could be that you like made out with someone,
Speaker 6: or it could be just that you should go because
Speaker 6: you're a good church member. It was like it could
Speaker 6: be any reason.
Speaker 2: And would it be in a big would it be
Speaker 2: like the weddings like in a big sort of ceremony or.
Speaker 6: Yeah, well like a couple hundred people, like in a
Speaker 6: big room.
Speaker 2: Was there any obligation to like say that you had
Speaker 2: done something like what?
Speaker 4: Who determined who would get beaten?
Speaker 6: It was it was kind of like anyone. It was
Speaker 6: kind of like everyone should go maybe periodically just to
Speaker 6: like cleanse yourself.
Speaker 1: So crazy, that is so crazy.
Speaker 6: Yeah, so that was where they were at, not not
Speaker 6: going to a seakll.
Speaker 2: So I mean, good on you for not writing on
Speaker 2: your friends as we talked about last time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because they would get Yeah.
Speaker 4: So were you living in terror all the time of
Speaker 4: that happened.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the stakes were so high.
Speaker 6: Okay, So what I was thinking about because you were
Speaker 6: asking me like why I went to college or something,
Speaker 6: and I was thinking about how I had a dream
Speaker 6: that I went to college before I went to college,
Speaker 6: and I told my parents about the dream, and I
Speaker 6: was seen as like a spiritual sign that I should
Speaker 6: go to college. I was thee about how when I
Speaker 6: was growing up, I was acting like I was a
Speaker 6: bank teller and there was a bank robber, you know,
Speaker 6: and you're like just chit chatting with the robber, you know,
Speaker 6: but you're their hostage. Yeah, but now, looking back, I
Speaker 6: see all these moves I did, and I'm like, oh shit,
Speaker 6: I was like trying to get myself out. Before I
Speaker 6: even knew it. I was like, I had this dream
Speaker 6: I need to go to college.
Speaker 4: Do you really have the dream I did?
Speaker 6: But I feel like it was like college really far
Speaker 6: away from my parents, Like I was making these moves
Speaker 6: for years.
Speaker 1: Yeah, would I tell them? Yeah, exactly right.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and yeah, it feels very much like I was
Speaker 6: a hostage and I didn't know how to advocate for
Speaker 6: myself in a way except these like almost subconscious decisions
Speaker 6: I was making.
Speaker 3: That's so interesting, and it's really interesting to talk to
Speaker 3: people who feel that way too, because they're like, looking
Speaker 3: back on it, I can see that I was like backwards, yes,
Speaker 3: without even knowing, like getting out of this thing, but
Speaker 3: I wasn't even aware of it.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you're like, hi, guys, everything's normal. I'm totally believer.
Speaker 6: I just need to go really far away, you know, totally.
Speaker 2: Did you have a dream for like a career or
Speaker 2: life that you wanted.
Speaker 6: Yeah, So my mom was an artist before she joined
Speaker 6: the church, and she wanted me to be an artist.
Speaker 6: And then I started to really like art classes and
Speaker 6: she was like, you know what you It was almost
Speaker 6: like a scientology thing where they're like you could go
Speaker 6: and be a musician, but you'll be like almost like
Speaker 6: a cultural imbas like right right, Me and him.
Speaker 1: Both in New Jersey.
Speaker 6: I don't have my own seven forty seven but maybe soon,
Speaker 6: yeah exactly.
Speaker 1: So yes.
Speaker 6: My was like you do this thing, but do it
Speaker 6: for the church and I was like, okay, I will.
Speaker 1: You were like it will not be for me at all.
Speaker 3: Oh no no, no, no, no, no for the church
Speaker 3: and yeah married.
Speaker 6: Yes, and I'm still married. We left together when we
Speaker 6: were in our twenties. How did that conversation start?
Speaker 3: So?
Speaker 6: I thought we were just fine, normal conversation, normal church family.
Speaker 6: And one day we were like looking at a church
Speaker 6: text together and he threw it against the wall and.
Speaker 1: Was like this is bullshit. Wow.
Speaker 6: Like those few weeks leading up to it, I was
Speaker 6: like something was going on with him and he finally
Speaker 6: snapped and I was like, yeah, I.
Speaker 1: Don't believe it either. Wow.
Speaker 6: So we just had this like little moment and then
Speaker 6: a lot of conversations and freak outs.
Speaker 1: Where were like, oh what was that? Did that feel like?
Speaker 3: The weight of the world was just lifted off your
Speaker 3: shoulders when your husband was like, this is fugging dumb.
Speaker 6: I feel like it felt like the first true thing
Speaker 6: anyone had ever said to me. You know, It's like
Speaker 6: the first real interaction where we weren't hiding anything.
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh my god.
Speaker 2: And I can imagine how much that would help your
Speaker 2: relationship and make it more likely to last because you're
Speaker 2: actually being authentic with each other now.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, wow.
Speaker 4: So there was this leaving was it a process over years?
Speaker 6: I feel like at first we were like, oh, we'll
Speaker 6: just leave, but we'll tell everyone. You know, we respect
Speaker 6: your religion, but I don't think it's right for us,
Speaker 6: so we're gonna take a step back. There's no like
Speaker 6: taking a step back in cults out and so like
Speaker 6: after a while we're like, actually, no, fuck this shit,
Speaker 6: and like, you know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because colts don't have boundaries, so it's not a
Speaker 3: normal relationship where you can be like we're just gonna
Speaker 3: take a little we're gonna set a boundary because it's like, no,
Speaker 3: there aren't boundaries, so you can't do that.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's literally like no, but you belong to us, right,
Speaker 6: You're ours?
Speaker 4: Yeah, So how did your parents?
Speaker 6: They did not take it super great yea. And I
Speaker 6: haven't spoken to them in quite a few years, especially
Speaker 6: because at that time they were getting more into the
Speaker 6: violent splend call, you know, the one with guns. So yeah,
Speaker 6: so and also at the time, my brother was coming
Speaker 6: out as trance and so it was like, we're gonna
Speaker 6: be over here. I'm gonna be with my brother and
Speaker 6: you're gonna be over there in your gun hoarding situation.
Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah wow. Any chance you think they'll ever?
Speaker 6: I feel like at this point they have way too
Speaker 6: much invested.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't even know if i'd want.
Speaker 4: That for them.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I feel that way about a lot of older family members,
Speaker 2: where I'm like, I think it would hurt you too
Speaker 2: much at this point, and I don't want you to
Speaker 2: die in that much pain. I would rather you believe
Speaker 2: in something as long as it's not harming.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I say they don't have their kids. A lot
Speaker 6: of their family members like that are not in the
Speaker 6: church or keeping them at arm's length, like they don't
Speaker 6: have much.
Speaker 1: It's really heartbreaking, I'm sing.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I feel like there's other first gen I know
Speaker 6: who've left the church, who are their ages and I'm
Speaker 6: really happy for them because they're like getting to retire
Speaker 6: and hang out with their grandkids and like having these
Speaker 6: awesome moments with their families. But I don't think that's
Speaker 6: in the cards from my parents.
Speaker 4: Do you talk to anyone who's still a member?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 6: I have, uh, or you know what, I feel like,
Speaker 6: there's some people where like they talk to me and
Speaker 6: their partner is like kind of still in or you know,
Speaker 6: there's there's different variations.
Speaker 3: Of it, so it's not like you're a suppressive person
Speaker 3: like in scientology when you leave.
Speaker 6: It's not so much like that. I think when I
Speaker 6: was a kid, if some and like me left, they
Speaker 6: would very much be ostracized. But then it got like
Speaker 6: a little bit more flexible.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems like things have generally, at least in
Speaker 2: the main version of the church, chilled out a bit.
Speaker 1: Is that true?
Speaker 4: Would you say?
Speaker 6: I feel like maybe it's just like ossified or something
Speaker 6: like it. I don't know if it like like it
Speaker 6: still sucks, you know, like you're still supposed to get
Speaker 6: married super young, you know, tithe to the church stay
Speaker 6: really insular. But yeah, maybe it maybe it has gotten a.
Speaker 1: Little bit better.
Speaker 2: Were the mass beatings like exposed.
Speaker 4: Did they stop?
Speaker 3: I feel like they're still going on little Yeah, and
Speaker 3: the mass weddings are as well, I think so yeah, Okay,
Speaker 3: well then never mind, I take.
Speaker 1: You back chill.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 6: I think it's just getting weirder because, like you know,
Speaker 6: the people have stayed, like really doubled down. Yeah, and
Speaker 6: then the people who have left are like drifting away already.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: That's that's kind of a theory that I have about
Speaker 3: the two by twos is that they are making stupider
Speaker 3: rules because they're trying to get people who aren't totally
Speaker 3: in to go away so they can have more control
Speaker 3: over the people whose stay just the fair.
Speaker 2: Whereas the LDS Church Mormons, when it became too much
Speaker 2: of a problem the policy of polygamy, they got rid
Speaker 2: of that policy. Like it's interesting to see who tries
Speaker 2: to attract more people and be like no, no, no,
Speaker 2: we're okay yeah, versus school like yeah, closes in and
Speaker 2: gets weirder.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I feel like it's getting weirder. I mean, in some
Speaker 3: places it's not. Some places they're trying to make it
Speaker 3: more normal, but in some places it's getting weirder.
Speaker 2: Anyway, Okay, I want to transition to talking a little
Speaker 2: bit about the connective tissue that you see between our
Speaker 2: current political atmosphere and this particular cult or cults in general. Also,
Speaker 2: real quick, you wrote a book called how to talk
Speaker 2: to Your Republican Uncle.
Speaker 6: Oh. It was just like it was like essentially a
Speaker 6: little scene or artist's book. I wrote it right after
Speaker 6: Trump won the first time, because I feel like that
Speaker 6: was the first time that you know, until then, I
Speaker 6: didn't like talking about my cult upbringing because I felt
Speaker 6: like outsiders were just like wanting to know all the
Speaker 6: gossipy details and I was like, that's my trauma here
Speaker 6: asking about yeah. And then when Trump was elected, like
Speaker 6: that night, I realized, like, oh, all my friends who
Speaker 6: didn't grow up super religious or inn occult, like they
Speaker 6: don't know what this is like, and they don't know
Speaker 6: how to talk to people who are like in a cult.
Speaker 6: And so I kind of just wrote that with tips
Speaker 6: of like how to interact with people that either grew
Speaker 6: up in a cult or were like yeah or Republican
Speaker 6: voted for Trump.
Speaker 3: Different side at the table is your tenant was like
Speaker 3: you should or could stand contact or.
Speaker 6: It's like tricky because I have like several ideas about it.
Speaker 6: I'm like, either, okay, So say we're at a party
Speaker 6: and there's like a bunch of people who are in
Speaker 6: the church with me, and someone says something that's like homophobic,
Speaker 6: Then in that instance, having a nice little conversation about
Speaker 6: that is like not the most important thing to me.
Speaker 6: The most important thing for me in that moment would
Speaker 6: be to like loudly make sure that like everyone knows
Speaker 6: that it's not okay to do that, especially if you
Speaker 6: think like there's probably queer kids who are in the
Speaker 6: closet around you.
Speaker 4: Right, almost like for other people to hear.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Yeah, But I have had people like come up to
Speaker 6: me who were in the church with me and they're like, Keina,
Speaker 6: can you explain this whole thing about trans youth. I
Speaker 6: don't understand, Like I don't understand it, and they're like
Speaker 6: very kind about it and coming from a place of
Speaker 6: wanting to know more. And of course then like like
Speaker 6: I will take whatever time they need to try and
Speaker 6: explain something to them, right, So it's not just like
Speaker 6: a blanket like push everyone away or always give them
Speaker 6: the time of day. And then there's like my tactics
Speaker 6: for dealing with people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it always reminds me of that fascinating conversation that
Speaker 2: we had with Adrian Black, who was just transitioning when
Speaker 2: we interviewed her. She was a former white supremacist oh wow,
Speaker 2: who was David Duke's poster child and was like doing
Speaker 2: white nationalists radio programs and eventually denounced it and it's
Speaker 2: now very outspoken. But she talked about how there were
Speaker 2: sort of like two different types of interaction with her beliefs,
Speaker 2: and there was like both the people who would loudly
Speaker 2: denounce the kinds of thing she would be talking about,
Speaker 2: the racism, and then there would be people who would
Speaker 2: engage her in real conversation. And she kind of was
Speaker 2: talking about how both things are a little bit necessary,
Speaker 2: but if it was only the people yelling at her
Speaker 2: and not anyone engaging in good faith, it might not
Speaker 2: have penetrated. Yeah, and talked about the importance of like
Speaker 2: the people around you, like caring about people who maybe
Speaker 2: are in the demographic that's being impacted, being one of
Speaker 2: the major factors. Yeah, so your community isn't just the
Speaker 2: like cult people, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 6: I would almost like to offer like a third way too.
Speaker 6: This is from when I live near the border of
Speaker 6: North Korea. I had heard that the South Korean Army
Speaker 6: they had their own out speakers and they would announce
Speaker 6: what time of day it was, like every ten minutes.
Speaker 6: They'd be like, it's one o'clock, one thirty whatever. And
Speaker 6: someone explained it to me as they know, the North
Speaker 6: Koreans are so poor they don't have watches, and so
Speaker 6: they're helping them. But also this is a sign that like,
Speaker 6: if the North Koreans can start relying on the South
Speaker 6: Koreans for the time of day, maybe it will break
Speaker 6: through and they'll realize, like they're not all bullshit.
Speaker 1: Why is that making me cry? I don't know. That's
Speaker 1: really weird. The most beautiful thing about her.
Speaker 3: Wow, Okay, right, so they're kind of unconsciously sending them
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, they're receiving unconsciously the sign that some
Speaker 3: trust some trust. So I feel like in my life
Speaker 3: growing up, I had like art teachers and stuff who
Speaker 3: I think maybe knew a little bit about my background
Speaker 3: even though we didn't talk about it. But just like
Speaker 3: being able to go over their houses and they would like,
Speaker 3: you know, I do watercolors with them and just have
Speaker 3: these moments with them. Where I feel like, of course
Speaker 3: we didn't talk about the church, but there was something
Speaker 3: about showing up where I was like, how are these
Speaker 3: out these they were supposed to be my enemy, these
Speaker 3: like outsiders. They were like these feminists who were teaching
Speaker 3: me art, which was like not looked on very well
Speaker 3: in the church. Even I feel like those kinds of
Speaker 3: moments can be really important too, Yeah, because you're just subtly,
Speaker 3: just by being a nice person, you're kind of undermining
Speaker 3: the church narrative.
Speaker 4: That it's the enemy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was sort of what I was inarticulately trying
Speaker 2: to say about the community aspect, because like caring about
Speaker 2: people who are the people that you've been told are bad,
Speaker 2: suddenly them being in your life, Like it doesn't necessarily
Speaker 2: have to be a debate, and frequently it wasn't in
Speaker 2: her case. And the same is true with our other
Speaker 2: former neo Nazi, Frank Mink, who full on neo Nazi,
Speaker 2: who started working for a Jewish guy and just by
Speaker 2: virtue of the guy being nice and like a good
Speaker 2: person to him, it started to break through that belief system.
Speaker 4: So I wasn't actually planning to.
Speaker 2: Talk about how to talk to people, but I'm glad
Speaker 2: we are because it's always important, especially right now when
Speaker 2: so many of us are having really fractured relationships with
Speaker 2: our family members. I had a couple of challenging encounters
Speaker 2: recently with people in my life about immigration issues, and
Speaker 2: I don't think I handled.
Speaker 4: It the best that I could.
Speaker 2: It's really hard because you get, at least I do,
Speaker 2: get really heated right away when I feel that people
Speaker 2: are being dehumanized, you know.
Speaker 4: Like there's no right answer.
Speaker 2: We all have a different role in how we respond
Speaker 2: to the people who are engaging that kind of thinking.
Speaker 2: But like I wish there was just like a thing
Speaker 2: you could do, you know, as script.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I kind of feel like what you did is
Speaker 6: probably great because I feel like even just getting upset
Speaker 6: is a sign to them like, oh, like you know,
Speaker 6: like did I maybe say something wrong or maybe I
Speaker 6: should be a little bit more careful before running my
Speaker 6: mouth about like dehumanizing other people.
Speaker 2: I think that's true in some cases, like when it's peers. Yeah,
Speaker 2: But I do think that for people like who watch
Speaker 2: Fox News a lot, Yeah, they've been primed to think
Speaker 2: that anyone who's like liberal or leftist is hysterical.
Speaker 4: Not living in reality.
Speaker 2: So for case is like that, I really want to
Speaker 2: try to maintain my composure and be like, why do
Speaker 2: you think that? Did you know that there's been research
Speaker 2: that actually said this, just saying that's why I think it?
Speaker 6: You know, I know some it really helps to sometimes
Speaker 6: like read up on some of these issues so you
Speaker 6: can like have something in your head where you can
Speaker 6: just like throw it out there. I will say, like
Speaker 6: I'm good at doing that with some issues more than others.
Speaker 6: For like trans writes, I feel like I'm pretty well
Speaker 6: read up on that. But weirdly, for like feminists, like
Speaker 6: if someone comes in and says something like negative about women,
Speaker 6: I feel like then I'm put on the spot, you know,
Speaker 6: when it like personally is about could be about me.
Speaker 6: I'm like, you know what, I'm going to just shut
Speaker 6: off and like leave you alone. Like I'm not gonna
Speaker 6: engage with people. I'll leave that to some dude to
Speaker 6: like yell at you about or something.
Speaker 2: Because it's having to defend your own dignity and humanity.
Speaker 1: To find their own humanity.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, which is why it is so important to
Speaker 2: speak up for the groups that we are not in. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so let's talk about your Salon article and some of
Speaker 2: the parallels that you are seeing right now in our
Speaker 2: political environment.
Speaker 6: Well, I was just thinking about how as we talked,
Speaker 6: my parents joined the church kind of by being picked
Speaker 6: up on this street. And then and with the deep programmers.
Speaker 6: Yeah yes, And then there was this big uproar about
Speaker 6: like deep programmers and being kidnapped, and the church was saying, hey,
Speaker 6: you guys are kidnapping like our members. These are the
Speaker 6: stories I grew up on, and I still see the
Speaker 6: ripple effects to this day with like family members who
Speaker 6: still have fractious relationships to each other. And then of
Speaker 6: course with my parents be so over the top armed,
Speaker 6: like they're literally in a splender call where they wear
Speaker 6: bullet crowns.
Speaker 2: Now that's out the bullet crowd.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 6: I thought you were up on your cult knowledge.
Speaker 1: The crowns made of bullet Oh yeah wow. And this
Speaker 1: is all in the name of love.
Speaker 6: We have to yeah, yeah, we love you so much.
Speaker 6: We need to protect you at all costs.
Speaker 3: And that means everybody has a jack. Everyone needs to
Speaker 3: have all the guns.
Speaker 2: This is a quote from you. It's reminiscent of when
Speaker 2: the Unification Church promoted world peace while manufacturing weapons, or
Speaker 2: how the Sanctuary Church created the peace police peace militia.
Speaker 2: I don't know why I need peace Twice, I know
Speaker 2: a group of armed cult member, a group of armed
Speaker 2: cult members quote practicing to be deadly because they love people.
Speaker 4: What's the logic there?
Speaker 6: So I was still talking to my dad when that
Speaker 6: peace police idea came about the.
Speaker 1: Peace police peace.
Speaker 6: Now I've noticed it is a peace militia as well,
Speaker 6: so and I remember I didn't argue with him that
Speaker 6: much about things growing up, and that's one where I said, like,
Speaker 6: that makes absolutely no sense to me.
Speaker 1: And he was like, you know, like you could get
Speaker 1: raped going to McDonald's, you need to have a gun
Speaker 1: with you.
Speaker 6: And I was like, I am a clumsy person because
Speaker 6: I've discussed like I'm gonna like shoot myself in the
Speaker 6: foot before I cause any harm to others. And that
Speaker 6: just I've never liked guns when I was a kid.
Speaker 6: We didn't actually have guns when I was a kid,
Speaker 6: and so I didn't grow up around them.
Speaker 3: And now your parents are strapped. They have giant weapons
Speaker 3: and they're wearing crowns made of bullets. And for the record,
Speaker 3: I come from a hunting family in the Midwest, there's
Speaker 3: nothing wrong with being a gun owner, like I think, inherently. Sure, No,
Speaker 3: not inherently, I mean, and it's necessary to hunt deer
Speaker 3: in a lot of the country.
Speaker 6: So when I was a kid in rural Pennsylvania, yes,
Speaker 6: some of the church dads had their own little hunting
Speaker 6: group and they would go and hunt deer and then
Speaker 6: feed up everyone for a while on it. And I
Speaker 6: thought that was fine. And I still think that's fine,
Speaker 6: even though I'm a vegetarian and I think, yeah, deer
Speaker 6: can be a huge problem. That being said, I'm like
Speaker 6: not a fan of handguns or most guns, and I'd
Speaker 6: be happy if they all got taken away. Yeah, maybe
Speaker 6: just give someone a boone arrow or like a musket
Speaker 6: or something. Yeah, which, by the way, a lot of
Speaker 6: my family used bone arrow. Yeah, my brother's really into
Speaker 6: bone and arrow, so like, great, have fun. I will
Speaker 6: not do that either, but yeah, so but this is
Speaker 6: much different. This is taking like a bunch of assault
Speaker 6: rifles and they're also part of their churches, like they
Speaker 6: own a gun manufacturing company.
Speaker 1: Holy shit.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think that the idea of safety
Speaker 2: is being weaponized in a very serious way, which obviously
Speaker 2: that's a conservative versus progressive thing in general, but right
Speaker 2: now in particular, the demonization of immigrants is being you know,
Speaker 2: sort of sanitized as keeping the country safe while engaging
Speaker 2: in myriad falsehoods about what threat people who are immigrants
Speaker 2: actually present to the US, which in fact, they commit
Speaker 2: crimes at the significantly.
Speaker 4: Lower rates exactly the people who were born here.
Speaker 2: It's that demonization of an entire group of people for
Speaker 2: me that echoes of so much cultic thinking.
Speaker 1: Yeah, me too.
Speaker 6: I feel like, so we were talking about how my
Speaker 6: parents join at a time where a lot of people
Speaker 6: were protesting the Vietnam War, then realizing like, why are
Speaker 6: you sending us over there to die? This doesn't make
Speaker 6: any sense, Like we can't trust the government. And I
Speaker 6: feel like even though the Iraq War is not the
Speaker 6: same as the Vietnam War, we didn't have a draft.
Speaker 6: I feel like there's been similar conditions over the past
Speaker 6: few decades where income inequality has risen to such a
Speaker 6: level and most mainstream politicians haven't really at first, they
Speaker 6: don't even acknowledge it. You know, Biden was like, well,
Speaker 6: you know, the S and B five hundred is up,
Speaker 6: or you know, when they would kind of try and
Speaker 6: explain it away, or they would offer like these solutions
Speaker 6: that didn't really work. And I feel like those conditions
Speaker 6: left a country that was just like, hey, we're busting
Speaker 6: our asses and we're not making any money. We're like
Speaker 6: not able to send our kids to college. Like something
Speaker 6: is wrong here. This is not working for us, and
Speaker 6: the politicians were not really acknowledging that. And so then
Speaker 6: you have people on the right, like Trump and his
Speaker 6: cronies giving you at least an answer that makes sense
Speaker 6: to you. Yes, and that'sperienced, and it's the only answer
Speaker 6: out there right now, and so people have latched onto
Speaker 6: that and it makes sense. Like personally, I am super left,
Speaker 6: and I don't think any of that is actually accurate,
Speaker 6: Like what their escape goes voting and what Trump is
Speaker 6: saying is absolutely not correct. But it's giving something for
Speaker 6: angry people to keep hold of to make sense of
Speaker 6: their world.
Speaker 4: One hundred percent. Did you read Doppelganger?
Speaker 6: I read some of it and my listener interviews.
Speaker 4: I love Nami Klink.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm halfway through the book, but that's that's one
Speaker 2: of the major themes of her book as well, which
Speaker 2: everybody highly recommend yes, establishment politicians did not provide an
Speaker 2: answer for people, which left a vacuum for bad actors
Speaker 2: to be like I have.
Speaker 4: The person to blame, and it's people of color.
Speaker 6: Ye, or it's like trans tine, yeah say. And then
Speaker 6: you can see with the recent New York election, zoron
Speaker 6: mom Donnie, like he's doing really well in New York
Speaker 6: because he's prioritizing affordability and things that people actually really
Speaker 6: care about. And so there are people who voted for
Speaker 6: Trump who are now voting for Zoran who's like very
Speaker 6: left wing democratic socialists, but he's you know, not tied
Speaker 6: to all these billionaire donors like the rest of the
Speaker 6: democratic establishment.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean it also echoes of a cult to me
Speaker 2: in that there is this billionaire class that is benefiting
Speaker 2: from all of the inequality that's happening. And meanwhile, like
Speaker 2: the escapegoating, this black and white thinking is being used
Speaker 2: as a tool to just.
Speaker 4: Make more money and get more power and turn people
Speaker 4: against each other in the process.
Speaker 6: Because if they're fighting each other, then they're not noticing
Speaker 6: this billionaire pulling the strings.
Speaker 3: Right, I will say too, like the two party system
Speaker 3: is just always going to like I remember a couple
Speaker 3: of years ago, I was like, I don't think Biden
Speaker 3: should run for office. I said it on this podcast,
Speaker 3: and I got a million DM saying like, you support
Speaker 3: Trump and your blah blahlah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I was like, no, I just think he's
Speaker 4: going to lose.
Speaker 1: I don't.
Speaker 3: So you weren't really allowed to say that you didn't
Speaker 3: think he should run for president.
Speaker 1: Like that was like everyone was so stressed out.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so it just got really like complicated because
Speaker 3: like people acted like you were a conspiracy theorist who
Speaker 3: was crazy. If you were like I don't think he's
Speaker 3: like maybe cognitively up for the job, They're like he's great.
Speaker 6: He was like, yeah, yeah, he's the only chance we Yeah,
Speaker 6: even though the even though it was terrible, Yeah.
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna sound like Bernie bro Bernie would have won.
Speaker 2: I know, I agree with you completely. The two party
Speaker 2: system is a huge problem. We have no good options
Speaker 2: right now, and it makes sense that people are just
Speaker 2: picking whatever sounds like it's going to solve something. But
Speaker 2: what doesn't make sense is kidnapping people off this street.
Speaker 6: I know, I know, I just found the first week
Speaker 6: kind of happened. I was like, oh, so I've been
Speaker 6: worried about my own parents just randomly showing up with
Speaker 6: crazy guns, and now everyone gets to worry about like
Speaker 6: crazy people showing up with guns and everywhere. Yeah, sorry, guys,
Speaker 6: welcome to my world. Although I have to say, like,
Speaker 6: you know, as a citizen, and you know, a white person,
Speaker 6: I know that I have like way more privilege than
Speaker 6: so many of our neighbors out there today.
Speaker 3: As a person with her parents wearing bullet crowns, We're
Speaker 3: going to give you some leeway. But you also you're,
Speaker 3: like as a fellow white person, Yeah, my parents aren't
Speaker 3: wearing bullet grounds though, so you have a little more.
Speaker 3: But maybe something I have, like I've experienced this for
Speaker 3: so long, maybe I have some insights for people.
Speaker 1: Well, thank you doo.
Speaker 2: Yeah, also pointing out like citizens are being detained as
Speaker 2: well and disappearing. And of course, in our last episode
Speaker 2: that was not a rewind before we went on hiatus
Speaker 2: I talked about Mamu Khalil Mosimadowi, who were legally here
Speaker 2: and we're targeted strictly for their speech, which is incredibly dangerous.
Speaker 2: A silencing of descent is one of the biggest size,
Speaker 2: the biggest side of authoritarianism and even fucking Rosi o'donald
Speaker 2: tried to was like she wants her back in Ireland,
Speaker 2: threatening to revoke her citizenship this week.
Speaker 6: I mean yeah, but I mean like even besides all that,
Speaker 6: there's now like who are these ICE people we don't
Speaker 6: even know. Then there's like freaking people pretending to be
Speaker 6: Ice right that are like assaulting women on the street.
Speaker 6: Ice was in my neighborhood and they were pointing guns
Speaker 6: at people just driving by the intersection. They were at
Speaker 6: like something's gonna happen. It's not good. We're all like
Speaker 6: I don't care who you are. We're all like we're
Speaker 6: especially in dangerous.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, we're in it.
Speaker 2: But I would urge folks to if you are feelings
Speaker 2: has to get involved in the advocacy and like show
Speaker 2: up to actions because it's only by like combining forces, and.
Speaker 6: Like what you were saying about protesting and talking to people,
Speaker 6: I think the answer is doing everything to combat this.
Speaker 6: Like I remember being a little kid and the Unification
Speaker 6: Church was protested, and I remember being really scared in
Speaker 6: that moment. But I think it was important, really important
Speaker 6: for me to see like, Okay, not everyone believes in
Speaker 6: this church, maybe take a second look, Like maybe this
Speaker 6: doesn't work for the ice assholes who are there, like
Speaker 6: right there with the guns, but maybe it gives other
Speaker 6: people like a little bit of hesitation or a little
Speaker 6: bit like just put something in their brain like why
Speaker 6: are all these people.
Speaker 1: So upset with me?
Speaker 3: Right? And I think you really said it while in
Speaker 3: your article of taking space to do meaningful things in
Speaker 3: your community that are small as well so that you
Speaker 3: really feel connected to change.
Speaker 6: Well, I think protesting can even be part of that
Speaker 6: because you're also out there showing your neighbors that you
Speaker 6: care about them. And then there's other things you can
Speaker 6: do like buy out your local Tamali stand or you know,
Speaker 6: be involved in different groups who are helping patrol and
Speaker 6: instead of getting mired in their crazy arguments and getting
Speaker 6: lost in their stupid logic, you're like focusing your energy
Speaker 6: on like creating a better life for you and your community.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you said plant some seeds, give somebody
Speaker 3: some socks, like take it to reality and just said
Speaker 3: something simple.
Speaker 2: And yeah, I'm just going to shout out Ktown for
Speaker 2: All is a great organization here in LA that's been
Speaker 2: buying out street vendors to protect them from ice.
Speaker 4: La is also great pization right.
Speaker 6: Natalon is great too. They've been in Pasadena for a
Speaker 6: long time. They're the National Day Laborers Organizing Network. And
Speaker 6: also right after the Eaten fires, they were on the ground,
Speaker 6: like the day after cleaning up all the debris left
Speaker 6: in Pasadena, so they were there doing the fires there.
Speaker 6: Right now they have a box truck going around making
Speaker 6: announcements when ice is around, they're holding vigils. They're like,
Speaker 6: there's so I think that's the silver lining of this
Speaker 6: moment is seeing like how many heroes we live amongst
Speaker 6: where where it's just like all of these like grassroots
Speaker 6: groups and people throwing in twenty dollars or stopping the
Speaker 6: videotape and ice rate or you know, we're all doing
Speaker 6: what we can.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you mentioned the importance of protests in terms of showing.
Speaker 1: People that you care.
Speaker 2: I've read this really great article and now I'm not
Speaker 2: going to remember which publication it was, I'll have to
Speaker 2: find it, but just talking about how you know, a
Speaker 2: lot of us became disillusioned with the idea of protesting
Speaker 2: because it felt like it wasn't achieving anything, and in many.
Speaker 4: Cases that is true.
Speaker 2: But what it does achieve is it shows people how
Speaker 2: other people feel. Yeah, and we can lose sight and
Speaker 2: we can become hopeless about being capable of creating any
Speaker 2: change when we think that everybody else is living in
Speaker 2: a different reality and they don't feel the same way
Speaker 2: that we do. And there's something so important about grounding
Speaker 2: in reality, like this is the public sentiment on this
Speaker 2: issue right now, and so like even when it feels
Speaker 2: pointless showing up, can action be impactful? Just at least
Speaker 2: in that way to be like, No, we care about immigrants,
Speaker 2: and you're not alone if you care about it, and
Speaker 2: we're not all giving up, like we're out here and
Speaker 2: we're doing it, and so you can hopefully feel inspired.
Speaker 4: To do something too.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean your your take on all of this
Speaker 3: is so important and it's just such a cool voice
Speaker 3: to hear in both spaces. I'm yeah, pretty obsessed, to
Speaker 3: put it mildly, Well, thank you, so you call it
Speaker 3: too slowly backs away? Do we have any like words
Speaker 3: of wisdom? Like what does real repair look like to you?
Speaker 3: Not just exiting thinking, but rejoining civic life in a
Speaker 3: meaningful way. That's a great question.
Speaker 1: Thanks.
Speaker 6: I don't know if they have an answer. So I
Speaker 6: became a parent in the past few years. I will say, like,
Speaker 6: in some ways that feels insane to have a child
Speaker 6: right now, but in other ways it feels like and
Speaker 6: I think you can obviously do this without a kid.
Speaker 6: It's just it's been helpful for me to realize that,
Speaker 6: like I need to not be consumed by everything going on,
Speaker 6: that I have a responsibility for this child to not
Speaker 6: trauma dump on him, or I just have a responsibility
Speaker 6: to give them a decent childhood and help them navigate
Speaker 6: the world. And some part of that is going to
Speaker 6: be like navigating this political moment. But I feel like
Speaker 6: it's really makes me focus on like his community of
Speaker 6: like little friends, and like my community that we live in,
Speaker 6: and just doing the generative side of pushing back against
Speaker 6: this administration, which is like creating a world that I
Speaker 6: want to live in, and focusing on that, whether it's
Speaker 6: you know, planting native flowers or buying more local or
Speaker 6: supporting my local immigrant rights groups or whatever I'm doing,
Speaker 6: it's like I'm trying to focus on that so I'm
Speaker 6: not just only doom scrolling and only panicking about our
Speaker 6: really really shitty leaders right now. So there's yeah, there's
Speaker 6: a focus on like what do I want the future
Speaker 6: to be like? And I feel like that can't just
Speaker 6: be like, oh, I'm gonna make you know, your room
Speaker 6: really pretty or something like. It needs to be like
Speaker 6: more substantial than.
Speaker 4: That, right, community oriented, yeah, which is what cults are
Speaker 4: so good at supplying.
Speaker 1: So we have to give it in healthy doses.
Speaker 6: Well, I feel like i've been It's funny. I was
Speaker 6: listening to a few of your your episodes, and I
Speaker 6: feel like, for me, cults are like just a big
Speaker 6: abuse of families, you know, Like it's like that same
Speaker 6: like dysfunction and abuse, but like instead it's like with
Speaker 6: a little bit weirder outfits, but it's basically the same thing, right,
Speaker 6: And so with an abusive family or abusive relationship, it's like,
Speaker 6: you know, the person will tell you I love you,
Speaker 6: I love you, I love you, but then they're also
Speaker 6: like hurting you at the same time, and that happens
Speaker 6: with cults and other dysfunctional relationships, and it's definitely, yeah,
Speaker 6: not healthy at all, and so you have to figure
Speaker 6: out what's healthy for you.
Speaker 4: Easier said than done.
Speaker 2: Sometimes, Yeah, I feel like a lot of that is
Speaker 2: like working on yourself and figuring out, like what what
Speaker 2: your own broken parts aren't trying to heal that, and
Speaker 2: getting outside perspective from someone completely uninvolved, because we lose
Speaker 2: perspective a lot of the time. I know, especially I
Speaker 2: just think about relationships that have become unhealthy. It can
Speaker 2: be so hard to like understand what is actually hurting
Speaker 2: you until you tell someone else and they're like, that's
Speaker 2: not normal, you know.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah, And just having a lot of different trusted
Speaker 4: sources in your life.
Speaker 1: We always come back to that, Yeah.
Speaker 6: And like having enough time to like, like whether it's
Speaker 6: taking walks or doing yoga, not a yoga cult, but
Speaker 6: like doing it, like doing things that like are very quiet,
Speaker 6: so that if there are alarm bells, like you're giving
Speaker 6: yourself the time to hear them. That's so true, because yeah,
Speaker 6: if you don't stop, I feel like it's easier to
Speaker 6: get wrapped around the axle.
Speaker 1: Amazing.
Speaker 4: We're gonna start using that point in every episode from
Speaker 4: now on.
Speaker 3: Truly, there was the guy on the Sarah Lawrence Stock
Speaker 3: who got away from everybody for like two minutes and
Speaker 3: it clicked for him.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean that's we hear that story over and
Speaker 4: over again.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think it's true in our political climate too,
Speaker 2: in terms of making sure you're taking space to consider
Speaker 2: what you're feeling, because we're activated all the time.
Speaker 6: Because they want us to be activated. I know that
Speaker 6: sounds really like conspiracy. Thereis, but like, I feel like
Speaker 6: the way that these billionaires keep getting to stay in
Speaker 6: power is because we're all like so freaked out. We're overwhelmed,
Speaker 6: and we're overwhelmed, and they're trying to make us feel
Speaker 6: overwhelmed so that we're more easily gullible and controlled.
Speaker 2: Totally if you yes, totally, and also at the same
Speaker 2: time sometimes you know, like if you do check out completely,
Speaker 2: oh yeah, then you're avoiding and you're not. So it's
Speaker 2: like it's just a constant balancing act. I just keep
Speaker 2: seeing memes where it's like people basically doing the splits
Speaker 2: like between two buildings and being like me trying to
Speaker 2: take space to not let this take over my life,
Speaker 2: and me trying to like make sure I'm actually contributing
Speaker 2: on the other side, you know, and it's it's very hard.
Speaker 6: And I feel like for me, the answer changes all
Speaker 6: the time, and I'm okay, with that, Like, I feel
Speaker 6: like I used to work more with organizations and lately
Speaker 6: I don't have the ability to do that in my
Speaker 6: day to day life. So I've been doing stuff like
Speaker 6: I wrote that article because I was like, oh, that's
Speaker 6: something I can do on my own in the free
Speaker 6: time I have. You go, it fluctuates over time. Yeah,
Speaker 6: I feel like it fluctuates over time.
Speaker 5: Oh.
Speaker 6: One tip I have is when I feel like I
Speaker 6: can't deal with the news for a bit, what I
Speaker 6: try and do is read a book of nonfiction, especially
Speaker 6: like a book of history that's like, you know, maybe
Speaker 6: about FDR or something where you're like still learning more
Speaker 6: about the world, but it's not like the world right now.
Speaker 6: So something that helps give a little context, but you're
Speaker 6: not getting sucked into the twenty four to seven Twitter feed.
Speaker 4: Yeah it's smart. I just watched the Winston Churchill doc on.
Speaker 1: Oh was it good? It's sah okay.
Speaker 2: I've just been watching Adam Curtis docs. I pus watched
Speaker 2: his film No No. Incredible filmmaker. He makes these political
Speaker 2: historical documentaries that kind of weave together these like larger
Speaker 2: narratives about what's happened from a leftist perspective, yeah, or
Speaker 2: anti capitalist perspective generally, but so smart and he's incorporating
Speaker 2: so many different cultures and movements that are happening all
Speaker 2: at the same time.
Speaker 4: Anyway, I highly recommend Adam Curtis nice.
Speaker 6: I read I think It's Called Say Nothing by Patrick
Speaker 6: rad and Kief, which was about the troubles in Ireland,
Speaker 6: and then I read a bunch of detective stories set
Speaker 6: around the troubles in Ireland.
Speaker 1: These detective stories were true.
Speaker 6: No, those were fiction, got those were just for fun.
Speaker 6: But I did read like a couple of nonfiction books.
Speaker 6: I was just like getting in that era.
Speaker 1: I love it.
Speaker 4: Thank you so much.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, why arranging and fascinating conversation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you so much for coming.
Speaker 4: And where do people find you?
Speaker 6: I have a website aquinacoxs dot com and I think
Speaker 6: there's links for what I'm up to there. Yeah cool,
Speaker 6: Thanks for having me, guys.
Speaker 2: That concludes our interview with Aquina Cox. I am so
Speaker 2: glad that she joined us in person. What an amazing
Speaker 2: first guest to have as our first episodes back with
Speaker 2: Trust Me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was a really great first guest. So grateful
Speaker 3: that she made the time to come in and speak with.
Speaker 2: Us same and I'm excited to keep going with our
Speaker 2: new home and so many more wonderful guests to come
Speaker 2: just to recap a bit of what we talked about.
Speaker 2: So there are organizations that if anyone in LA wants
Speaker 2: to get involved with to combat the dehumanization and mass
Speaker 2: deportation of people who are immigrants that is currently happening.
Speaker 4: Check out k Town for All.
Speaker 2: They do great, great local work helping not only the
Speaker 2: unhoused population but also people who are at risk of
Speaker 2: iced deportation. Chir Law, the Coalition for Humane Immigrant Rights
Speaker 2: Union Del Barrio does some really amazing stuff as well
Speaker 2: as La Tenants Union, and there are more I'm learning
Speaker 2: about all the time. And this is all to say
Speaker 2: if you're feeling panicked like I am, one of the
Speaker 2: things that can really help is at least taking some
Speaker 2: small action to feel like you have some agency over
Speaker 2: at least your little corner of the city or the world.
Speaker 3: Yes, consistent small action indeed, and indeed, thank you for
Speaker 3: listening to an episode of Trust Me. We can't wait
Speaker 3: to see you again next week. Make sure to rate
Speaker 3: us five stars if you're going to rate us less
Speaker 3: than just don't even bother it, and as always, remember
Speaker 3: to follow your gut, watch out for red Flatt, and
Speaker 3: never ever trust me.
Speaker 4: Bye bye. This has been an exactly right production hosted
Speaker 4: by Me.
Speaker 3: Lola Blanc and Me Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer is G.
Speaker 1: Holly.
Speaker 4: This episode was mixed by John Bradley.
Speaker 3: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker
Speaker 3: is Patrick Kottner.
Speaker 4: Our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.
Speaker 3: Trust Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgareth, Georgia Hartstark
Speaker 3: and Daniell Kramer.
Speaker 2: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me podcast
Speaker 2: or on TikTok at trust Me Cult podcast.
Speaker 3: Got your own story about cults, extreme belief, our manipulation,
Speaker 3: Shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.
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Speaker 1: M