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Speaker 1: Trust me?

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Speaker 2: Do you trust me? Right?

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Speaker 3: Everly?

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Speaker 4: And you astray?

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Speaker 1: Trust? This is the truth, the only truth.

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Speaker 2: If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't

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Speaker 2: welcome to trust me. The podcast about cults, extreme belief

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Speaker 2: and manipulation from two American girls have actually experienced it.

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Speaker 4: I Am Lola Blanc and I Am Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 2: Today's part two of our interview with the wonderful Aqina Cox,

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Speaker 2: artist and writer who grew up in the Moonies or

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Speaker 2: at the Unification Church. She is going to share more

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Speaker 2: about her experiences in the church, including its physical punishment rituals,

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Speaker 2: and where the church stands now.

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Speaker 3: We'll then transition into discussing the cult like patterns of

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Speaker 3: the current state of American politics and will debate how

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Speaker 3: to approach political disagreements with loved ones. We'll discuss her

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Speaker 3: article for Salon in which she exposes how the Trump

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Speaker 3: administration employs many of the same tactics used by Reverend

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Speaker 3: Moon and how high control groups tend to choose group

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Speaker 3: to scapegoat for their problems.

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Speaker 2: Plus the demonization of immigrants and trans folks, the realities

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Speaker 2: of ice kidnappings, and how the failures of political leadership

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Speaker 2: to effectively address income inequality in America created an opening

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Speaker 2: for demagogues to thrive. It's a chunky one, it's a

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Speaker 2: meadia one. Indeed, for those who want to read Aquina's article,

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Speaker 2: it is called as a former mooney, Trump's cult tactics

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Speaker 2: are eerily familiar, and she did write that for Salon,

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Speaker 2: So go ahead and read that if you would like.

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Speaker 4: It's great.

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Speaker 2: Before we get into all things America with Aquina Megan,

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Speaker 2: what's your cultiest.

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Speaker 1: Thing of the week.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so this week we recorded my favorite murder.

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Speaker 4: We got to be on the podcast.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yay.

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Speaker 3: And I have to admit there was this deep fear

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Speaker 3: inside of me that I would die before it happened.

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Speaker 3: And it's a very like two by two belief that

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Speaker 3: which is the group that I was raised in, that like,

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Speaker 3: before you you do something that maybe would bring more

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Speaker 3: attention and a negative light, you would die.

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Speaker 1: Does that make sense? Yes? So I was like, there's

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Speaker 1: no way.

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Speaker 3: I'm like, even though I don't believe in it, there

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Speaker 3: was still this fear in me that something would happen.

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Speaker 3: And I'm like, like, let's say I do die soon. Okay,

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Speaker 3: let's hope not. Let's hope not, but people in the

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Speaker 3: two by twos would say it's because I was speaking

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Speaker 3: out about it. And this is annoying to me because

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Speaker 3: I'm very clumsy. Like the other day, I had my

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Speaker 3: window open, and I have one of those windows that

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Speaker 3: just open straight out it like you could fall out

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Speaker 3: of it, you know, And I was like trying to

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Speaker 3: pick up my cat wearing cowboy booths, and I almost

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Speaker 3: fella out of the hold. My god, and I would

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Speaker 3: have I would have literally died, and it would have

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Speaker 3: been instead of just, you know, slightly tragic and kind

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Speaker 3: of funny, a lesson to be learned at conventions forever.

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Speaker 1: And another annoying thing.

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Speaker 3: For the two by twos is like whenever there's a tragedy,

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Speaker 3: they're like, but everybody, all the friends, that's what they're called,

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Speaker 3: we're safe.

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Speaker 4: And it's like, well, what about the people who weren't.

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Speaker 5: Or or or if you die like leaving a convention

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Speaker 5: or going to a convention or something, it's like, oh,

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Speaker 5: that's so great they died on their way to Like like,

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Speaker 5: it's just the dumble, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 4: It's never fair. It's like if you died when you

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Speaker 4: were saying something.

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Speaker 3: Bad about the two by twos, it's because you were

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Speaker 3: saying something bad and if you die going to do

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Speaker 3: something great. For the two by twos, it's because God

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Speaker 3: is like rewarding you.

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Speaker 2: It's just, oh, I was I thought you were going

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Speaker 2: to say, if you died going to something, it was

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Speaker 2: because Satan was intervening and trying to stop you from

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Speaker 2: doing the good work, which is I think what I

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Speaker 2: want to have been told.

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Speaker 1: No, it's like, well maybe both.

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Speaker 3: I just remember these two boys died leaving a convention

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Speaker 3: one year, which is like basically convention as like two

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Speaker 3: x two's four day long meeting. I can't it's a

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Speaker 3: whole other conversation, but they'd leaving it, and it was

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Speaker 3: very like you wanted to die leaving convention. Ah yeah, no, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I hate that because you were like, I'm I've been

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Speaker 3: filled with all these things for four days. I've been

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Speaker 3: away from the world for four days. Like take me

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Speaker 3: now before I send again. Wow.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 3: So just as like a clumsy person, maybe not the

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Speaker 3: best driver, maybe you know a few things that I

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Speaker 3: could really work on. I just want people to know

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Speaker 3: this is a PSA. If I die, it's because of me.

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Speaker 4: Now I'm worried about you.

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Speaker 2: Now I feel like we're in final destination and I

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Speaker 2: have to like be looking around every corner to see

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Speaker 2: if you're going to trip on a knife or something.

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Speaker 3: Well, my cat and I did come to the conclusion

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Speaker 3: that the windows shouldn't be open that far.

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Speaker 1: We're not going to do that anymore.

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Speaker 2: And for the record, listeners, she lives in the hills

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Speaker 2: like it's it's not like just the ground outside like

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Speaker 2: she would die. So okay, you for real need like

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Speaker 2: some screens or something that's wild.

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Speaker 1: I know, I know.

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Speaker 3: So that's my cultiest thing of the week. What about you,

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Speaker 3: what's your cultist thing in the week?

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Speaker 2: Once again, and this will be a pattern for me,

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Speaker 2: listeners will discover My actual cultiest thing of the week

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Speaker 2: is America and is concern about a lot of things

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Speaker 2: going on in America and in Gaza where people who

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Speaker 2: are seeking just simply to feed their families as they

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Speaker 2: are starving or getting shot, and the US, of course

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Speaker 2: is still condoning it and paying for a lot of it.

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Speaker 2: So please call your representatives and tell them that you

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Speaker 2: would like that to stop. But besides that, I was

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Speaker 2: learning about a part of history that actually I think

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Speaker 2: MFM listeners will probably be familiar with, but I was not.

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Speaker 4: Which is the New England vampire panic. Do you know

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Speaker 4: about this?

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Speaker 1: Okay?

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Speaker 3: You you were talking to me about it the other day.

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Speaker 3: Tell me more, because no, I don't, okay.

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Speaker 2: So it's not exactly like this Salem Witch Trials because

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Speaker 2: in the Salem Witch Trials, obviously they killed a fuck

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Speaker 2: ton of people who didn't need to die. This was

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Speaker 2: more like just messing with people's bodies after death. And

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Speaker 2: now I understand more the context for the film No

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Speaker 2: s Feratu, because when I was watching it, I was

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Speaker 2: like disease and vampires. I'm confused, but now it makes

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Speaker 2: more sense to me. So New Englanders in the late

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Speaker 2: eighteenth and early nineteenth century believed in vampires due to

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Speaker 2: the tuberculosis epidemic, and so they thought that what they

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Speaker 2: had to do was go into these like corpses coffins

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Speaker 2: and get them out and like dismember them to stop

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Speaker 2: the spread of disease, because they thought that people who

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Speaker 2: had died were coming out at night and turning everybody

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Speaker 2: into vampires.

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Speaker 3: But it was actually just tuberculosis. Okay, So that combines

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Speaker 3: like zombies for me in a way.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but it was like for some reason the lore

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Speaker 2: had landed on like, oh, these are vampires who come

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Speaker 2: out at night and wow, yeah, but it is similar.

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Speaker 2: And that was one of the things that confused me

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Speaker 2: about No Saratu because I was like, what lare are

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Speaker 2: we choosing here? But it's because of this part of

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Speaker 2: history that I did not understand.

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Speaker 3: Wow, I mean imagine that being part of your nightly routine.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god.

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Speaker 2: Rituals included burning organs and beheading corpses to prevent vampires

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Speaker 2: from rising again.

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Speaker 1: Yikes.

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Speaker 2: So it was because okay, family members had symptoms like

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Speaker 2: with an ashen appearance and sunken eyes, and sometimes blood

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Speaker 2: would drip from their mouths and it was spreading from

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Speaker 2: person to person. So like that was where the science

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Speaker 2: was at that time, Like, oh, must be vampires.

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Speaker 4: Damn fascinating. Right.

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Speaker 2: There's one story about a Rhode Island farmer named George

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Speaker 2: Brown who watched consumption kill his wife and then his

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Speaker 2: two daughters, and then his son became ill.

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Speaker 1: So George I know.

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Speaker 2: So then the villagers were like, yo, your family's probably vampires.

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Speaker 2: Let us take your wife and daughter's bodies out. So

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Speaker 2: the wife and one of the daughters, they were just bones.

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Speaker 2: But then the other one, the other girl, had died

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Speaker 2: in midwinter, and she was like partly preserved, and her

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Speaker 2: fingernails and hair seemed to have grown, which that's just

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Speaker 2: like a trick of what happens to your body as

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Speaker 2: your decomposing. Anyway, they were certain they'd found their vampire.

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Speaker 2: Cut her heart out burned. It had him drink the

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Speaker 2: ashes and hope that he'd recover, but then, of course

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Speaker 2: he also got.

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Speaker 4: Tuberculous and died.

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Speaker 3: George Brown has the worst life I've ever had.

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Speaker 4: I know, I never It's so tragic.

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Speaker 2: Talk about like a mass delusion and like or mass

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Speaker 2: hysteria and like CULTI group panic.

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Speaker 3: Is this going viral on TikTok or something because of

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Speaker 3: the film?

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Speaker 5: Like?

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Speaker 1: Why why is everybody talking about this?

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Speaker 4: Oh?

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Speaker 2: I don't think they are. I think I was just

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Speaker 2: looking it up for something I'm writing. I just liked

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Speaker 2: to see because I almost talked about it with Karen

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Speaker 2: and Georgia. But I was like, I bet you they've

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Speaker 2: covered it, and I googled it and of course they've

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Speaker 2: covered it, They've covered everything. But I had never heard

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Speaker 2: about it, and as someone who's ancestor died in prison

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Speaker 2: for being a witch in Salem.

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Speaker 4: Really, yes, yes, oh my god.

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Speaker 2: It was like it was like twenty years after the

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Speaker 2: like main panic and she was old, like she just

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Speaker 2: died in prison, but the reason she had been in

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Speaker 2: prison was because she was accused of being a witch. Oh,

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Speaker 2: oh my god, guys, I'm i a witch definitely. Well,

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Speaker 2: speaking of culty pieces of American history and culture. Yes,

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Speaker 2: should we transition into talking to Aquina about that very

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Speaker 2: thing in the modern era.

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Speaker 1: Let's do it.

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Speaker 2: We are back again with Aqina Cox. We were talking

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Speaker 2: last week about how the entire medical establishment was sort

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Speaker 2: of looked upon with suspicion.

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Speaker 4: Let's get right back into it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this is fascinating stuff. Part one with you everybody

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Speaker 3: needs to go listen to. But essentially we were talking

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Speaker 3: about the group the Moonies that you are part of,

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Speaker 3: and it sounds like therapy in particular was kind of

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Speaker 3: off the table for you.

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Speaker 1: What was it that brought you in to it?

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Speaker 6: Finally, I have to say something that I think I forgot,

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Speaker 6: which is that instead of going to doctors or therapists,

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Speaker 6: if you had a real problem, you would go and

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Speaker 6: get yourself beaten up.

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Speaker 4: Excuse me.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, the Unification Church is so insane. There's like a

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Speaker 6: giant grab bag and every time you put your hand in,

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Speaker 6: there's gonna be something else crazy coming up. So it

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Speaker 6: was like beating the bad spirits out of your body

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Speaker 6: on your mind.

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Speaker 4: And spirits were what would cause illness?

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Speaker 1: Was that? So who would beat you up?

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Speaker 6: So sometimes you would go and and you would just

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Speaker 6: like there'd be a song playing and you would hit yourself, okay,

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Speaker 6: And then sometimes it would be like people around you.

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Speaker 6: And sometimes it would be like an auntie just like

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Speaker 6: wailing on people. And then I've heard I've heard that

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Speaker 6: it could get like way worse, which I know it

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Speaker 6: already sounds very bad, but like they would like beat

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Speaker 6: up people who like had disabilities or like people or

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Speaker 6: just like really injure people while they were hitting them.

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Speaker 1: So that was therapy. Yeah, okay, wow.

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Speaker 2: Would it be people who had like what if someone

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Speaker 2: had cancer?

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Speaker 4: Would that also of course?

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Speaker 6: Or it could be that you like made out with someone,

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Speaker 6: or it could be just that you should go because

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Speaker 6: you're a good church member. It was like it could

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Speaker 6: be any reason.

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Speaker 2: And would it be in a big would it be

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Speaker 2: like the weddings like in a big sort of ceremony or.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, well like a couple hundred people, like in a

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Speaker 6: big room.

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Speaker 2: Was there any obligation to like say that you had

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Speaker 2: done something like what?

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Speaker 4: Who determined who would get beaten?

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Speaker 6: It was it was kind of like anyone. It was

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Speaker 6: kind of like everyone should go maybe periodically just to

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Speaker 6: like cleanse yourself.

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Speaker 1: So crazy, that is so crazy.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, so that was where they were at, not not

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Speaker 6: going to a seakll.

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Speaker 2: So I mean, good on you for not writing on

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Speaker 2: your friends as we talked about last time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because they would get Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So were you living in terror all the time of

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Speaker 4: that happened.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the stakes were so high.

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Speaker 6: Okay, So what I was thinking about because you were

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Speaker 6: asking me like why I went to college or something,

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Speaker 6: and I was thinking about how I had a dream

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Speaker 6: that I went to college before I went to college,

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Speaker 6: and I told my parents about the dream, and I

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Speaker 6: was seen as like a spiritual sign that I should

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Speaker 6: go to college. I was thee about how when I

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Speaker 6: was growing up, I was acting like I was a

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Speaker 6: bank teller and there was a bank robber, you know,

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Speaker 6: and you're like just chit chatting with the robber, you know,

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Speaker 6: but you're their hostage. Yeah, but now, looking back, I

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Speaker 6: see all these moves I did, and I'm like, oh shit,

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Speaker 6: I was like trying to get myself out. Before I

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Speaker 6: even knew it. I was like, I had this dream

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Speaker 6: I need to go to college.

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Speaker 4: Do you really have the dream I did?

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Speaker 6: But I feel like it was like college really far

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Speaker 6: away from my parents, Like I was making these moves

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Speaker 6: for years.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, would I tell them? Yeah, exactly right.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, and yeah, it feels very much like I was

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Speaker 6: a hostage and I didn't know how to advocate for

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Speaker 6: myself in a way except these like almost subconscious decisions

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Speaker 6: I was making.

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Speaker 3: That's so interesting, and it's really interesting to talk to

286
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Speaker 3: people who feel that way too, because they're like, looking

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Speaker 3: back on it, I can see that I was like backwards, yes,

288
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Speaker 3: without even knowing, like getting out of this thing, but

289
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Speaker 3: I wasn't even aware of it.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, you're like, hi, guys, everything's normal. I'm totally believer.

291
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Speaker 6: I just need to go really far away, you know, totally.

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Speaker 2: Did you have a dream for like a career or

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Speaker 2: life that you wanted.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, So my mom was an artist before she joined

295
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Speaker 6: the church, and she wanted me to be an artist.

296
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Speaker 6: And then I started to really like art classes and

297
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Speaker 6: she was like, you know what you It was almost

298
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Speaker 6: like a scientology thing where they're like you could go

299
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Speaker 6: and be a musician, but you'll be like almost like

300
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Speaker 6: a cultural imbas like right right, Me and him.

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Speaker 1: Both in New Jersey.

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Speaker 6: I don't have my own seven forty seven but maybe soon,

303
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Speaker 6: yeah exactly.

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Speaker 1: So yes.

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Speaker 6: My was like you do this thing, but do it

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Speaker 6: for the church and I was like, okay, I will.

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Speaker 1: You were like it will not be for me at all.

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Speaker 3: Oh no no, no, no, no, no for the church

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Speaker 3: and yeah married.

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Speaker 6: Yes, and I'm still married. We left together when we

311
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Speaker 6: were in our twenties. How did that conversation start?

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Speaker 3: So?

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Speaker 6: I thought we were just fine, normal conversation, normal church family.

314
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Speaker 6: And one day we were like looking at a church

315
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Speaker 6: text together and he threw it against the wall and.

316
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Speaker 1: Was like this is bullshit. Wow.

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Speaker 6: Like those few weeks leading up to it, I was

318
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Speaker 6: like something was going on with him and he finally

319
00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:38,800
Speaker 6: snapped and I was like, yeah, I.

320
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Speaker 1: Don't believe it either. Wow.

321
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Speaker 6: So we just had this like little moment and then

322
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Speaker 6: a lot of conversations and freak outs.

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Speaker 1: Where were like, oh what was that? Did that feel like?

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Speaker 3: The weight of the world was just lifted off your

325
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Speaker 3: shoulders when your husband was like, this is fugging dumb.

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Speaker 6: I feel like it felt like the first true thing

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Speaker 6: anyone had ever said to me. You know, It's like

328
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Speaker 6: the first real interaction where we weren't hiding anything.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, oh my god.

330
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Speaker 2: And I can imagine how much that would help your

331
00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:15,360
Speaker 2: relationship and make it more likely to last because you're

332
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Speaker 2: actually being authentic with each other now.

333
00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:18,760
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, wow.

334
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Speaker 4: So there was this leaving was it a process over years?

335
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Speaker 6: I feel like at first we were like, oh, we'll

336
00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,520
Speaker 6: just leave, but we'll tell everyone. You know, we respect

337
00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:31,520
Speaker 6: your religion, but I don't think it's right for us,

338
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Speaker 6: so we're gonna take a step back. There's no like

339
00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:41,760
Speaker 6: taking a step back in cults out and so like

340
00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:45,000
Speaker 6: after a while we're like, actually, no, fuck this shit,

341
00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:46,720
Speaker 6: and like, you know.

342
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Speaker 3: Yeah, because colts don't have boundaries, so it's not a

343
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Speaker 3: normal relationship where you can be like we're just gonna

344
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Speaker 3: take a little we're gonna set a boundary because it's like, no,

345
00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:56,760
Speaker 3: there aren't boundaries, so you can't do that.

346
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Speaker 6: Yeah, it's literally like no, but you belong to us, right,

347
00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:00,920
Speaker 6: You're ours?

348
00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:03,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, So how did your parents?

349
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Speaker 6: They did not take it super great yea. And I

350
00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:10,000
Speaker 6: haven't spoken to them in quite a few years, especially

351
00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:12,280
Speaker 6: because at that time they were getting more into the

352
00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:18,359
Speaker 6: violent splend call, you know, the one with guns. So yeah,

353
00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:22,040
Speaker 6: so and also at the time, my brother was coming

354
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Speaker 6: out as trance and so it was like, we're gonna

355
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Speaker 6: be over here. I'm gonna be with my brother and

356
00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:32,520
Speaker 6: you're gonna be over there in your gun hoarding situation.

357
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Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah wow. Any chance you think they'll ever?

358
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Speaker 6: I feel like at this point they have way too

359
00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:40,919
Speaker 6: much invested.

360
00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:43,760
Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't even know if i'd want.

361
00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:44,040
Speaker 4: That for them.

362
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Speaker 1: Yeah.

363
00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:48,240
Speaker 2: I feel that way about a lot of older family members,

364
00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:50,200
Speaker 2: where I'm like, I think it would hurt you too

365
00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:52,919
Speaker 2: much at this point, and I don't want you to

366
00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:57,040
Speaker 2: die in that much pain. I would rather you believe

367
00:17:57,119 --> 00:17:59,479
Speaker 2: in something as long as it's not harming.

368
00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:02,560
Speaker 6: Yeah, I say they don't have their kids. A lot

369
00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:05,080
Speaker 6: of their family members like that are not in the

370
00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:07,840
Speaker 6: church or keeping them at arm's length, like they don't

371
00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:09,639
Speaker 6: have much.

372
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Speaker 1: It's really heartbreaking, I'm sing.

373
00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:15,480
Speaker 6: Yeah, I feel like there's other first gen I know

374
00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:18,840
Speaker 6: who've left the church, who are their ages and I'm

375
00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:22,440
Speaker 6: really happy for them because they're like getting to retire

376
00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:26,399
Speaker 6: and hang out with their grandkids and like having these

377
00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:30,040
Speaker 6: awesome moments with their families. But I don't think that's

378
00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:31,960
Speaker 6: in the cards from my parents.

379
00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:35,320
Speaker 4: Do you talk to anyone who's still a member?

380
00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:36,960
Speaker 3: No?

381
00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:41,280
Speaker 6: I have, uh, or you know what, I feel like,

382
00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:43,399
Speaker 6: there's some people where like they talk to me and

383
00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:47,280
Speaker 6: their partner is like kind of still in or you know,

384
00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:51,320
Speaker 6: there's there's different variations.

385
00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:53,119
Speaker 3: Of it, so it's not like you're a suppressive person

386
00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:55,040
Speaker 3: like in scientology when you leave.

387
00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:58,040
Speaker 6: It's not so much like that. I think when I

388
00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,280
Speaker 6: was a kid, if some and like me left, they

389
00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:04,560
Speaker 6: would very much be ostracized. But then it got like

390
00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:05,800
Speaker 6: a little bit more flexible.

391
00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:08,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems like things have generally, at least in

392
00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,640
Speaker 2: the main version of the church, chilled out a bit.

393
00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:12,480
Speaker 1: Is that true?

394
00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:13,320
Speaker 4: Would you say?

395
00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:16,640
Speaker 6: I feel like maybe it's just like ossified or something

396
00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:19,280
Speaker 6: like it. I don't know if it like like it

397
00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:22,120
Speaker 6: still sucks, you know, like you're still supposed to get

398
00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:26,520
Speaker 6: married super young, you know, tithe to the church stay

399
00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:31,040
Speaker 6: really insular. But yeah, maybe it maybe it has gotten a.

400
00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:31,639
Speaker 1: Little bit better.

401
00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:35,040
Speaker 2: Were the mass beatings like exposed.

402
00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:36,760
Speaker 4: Did they stop?

403
00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:40,960
Speaker 3: I feel like they're still going on little Yeah, and

404
00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:44,719
Speaker 3: the mass weddings are as well, I think so yeah, Okay,

405
00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:46,360
Speaker 3: well then never mind, I take.

406
00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:48,000
Speaker 1: You back chill.

407
00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:48,920
Speaker 2: Yeah.

408
00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:51,439
Speaker 6: I think it's just getting weirder because, like you know,

409
00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:55,560
Speaker 6: the people have stayed, like really doubled down. Yeah, and

410
00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:59,720
Speaker 6: then the people who have left are like drifting away already.

411
00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:00,400
Speaker 1: Yeah.

412
00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:03,080
Speaker 3: That's that's kind of a theory that I have about

413
00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:06,440
Speaker 3: the two by twos is that they are making stupider

414
00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:10,200
Speaker 3: rules because they're trying to get people who aren't totally

415
00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:12,800
Speaker 3: in to go away so they can have more control

416
00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:14,360
Speaker 3: over the people whose stay just the fair.

417
00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:19,080
Speaker 2: Whereas the LDS Church Mormons, when it became too much

418
00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:21,399
Speaker 2: of a problem the policy of polygamy, they got rid

419
00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:25,439
Speaker 2: of that policy. Like it's interesting to see who tries

420
00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:27,320
Speaker 2: to attract more people and be like no, no, no,

421
00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:30,480
Speaker 2: we're okay yeah, versus school like yeah, closes in and

422
00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:31,160
Speaker 2: gets weirder.

423
00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:31,560
Speaker 1: Yeah.

424
00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:33,760
Speaker 3: I feel like it's getting weirder. I mean, in some

425
00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:35,720
Speaker 3: places it's not. Some places they're trying to make it

426
00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:37,760
Speaker 3: more normal, but in some places it's getting weirder.

427
00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:42,040
Speaker 2: Anyway, Okay, I want to transition to talking a little

428
00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:46,440
Speaker 2: bit about the connective tissue that you see between our

429
00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:52,040
Speaker 2: current political atmosphere and this particular cult or cults in general. Also,

430
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:54,080
Speaker 2: real quick, you wrote a book called how to talk

431
00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:55,119
Speaker 2: to Your Republican Uncle.

432
00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:57,200
Speaker 6: Oh. It was just like it was like essentially a

433
00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:00,600
Speaker 6: little scene or artist's book. I wrote it right after

434
00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:03,080
Speaker 6: Trump won the first time, because I feel like that

435
00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:07,560
Speaker 6: was the first time that you know, until then, I

436
00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,360
Speaker 6: didn't like talking about my cult upbringing because I felt

437
00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,119
Speaker 6: like outsiders were just like wanting to know all the

438
00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:16,200
Speaker 6: gossipy details and I was like, that's my trauma here

439
00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:20,000
Speaker 6: asking about yeah. And then when Trump was elected, like

440
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:23,320
Speaker 6: that night, I realized, like, oh, all my friends who

441
00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:26,040
Speaker 6: didn't grow up super religious or inn occult, like they

442
00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:28,760
Speaker 6: don't know what this is like, and they don't know

443
00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,240
Speaker 6: how to talk to people who are like in a cult.

444
00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:33,880
Speaker 6: And so I kind of just wrote that with tips

445
00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:38,800
Speaker 6: of like how to interact with people that either grew

446
00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:42,320
Speaker 6: up in a cult or were like yeah or Republican

447
00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:43,320
Speaker 6: voted for Trump.

448
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:47,439
Speaker 3: Different side at the table is your tenant was like

449
00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:49,760
Speaker 3: you should or could stand contact or.

450
00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:54,800
Speaker 6: It's like tricky because I have like several ideas about it.

451
00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:58,160
Speaker 6: I'm like, either, okay, So say we're at a party

452
00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:00,399
Speaker 6: and there's like a bunch of people who are in

453
00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:04,200
Speaker 6: the church with me, and someone says something that's like homophobic,

454
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:08,440
Speaker 6: Then in that instance, having a nice little conversation about

455
00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:10,960
Speaker 6: that is like not the most important thing to me.

456
00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:13,359
Speaker 6: The most important thing for me in that moment would

457
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,760
Speaker 6: be to like loudly make sure that like everyone knows

458
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:20,399
Speaker 6: that it's not okay to do that, especially if you

459
00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:23,639
Speaker 6: think like there's probably queer kids who are in the

460
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:25,200
Speaker 6: closet around you.

461
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:27,920
Speaker 4: Right, almost like for other people to hear.

462
00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:28,520
Speaker 5: Yeah.

463
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:32,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, But I have had people like come up to

464
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:35,000
Speaker 6: me who were in the church with me and they're like, Keina,

465
00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:38,159
Speaker 6: can you explain this whole thing about trans youth. I

466
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:41,240
Speaker 6: don't understand, Like I don't understand it, and they're like

467
00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:44,520
Speaker 6: very kind about it and coming from a place of

468
00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:48,239
Speaker 6: wanting to know more. And of course then like like

469
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:51,720
Speaker 6: I will take whatever time they need to try and

470
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:55,040
Speaker 6: explain something to them, right, So it's not just like

471
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:58,800
Speaker 6: a blanket like push everyone away or always give them

472
00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,640
Speaker 6: the time of day. And then there's like my tactics

473
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:02,880
Speaker 6: for dealing with people.

474
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, it always reminds me of that fascinating conversation that

475
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:10,880
Speaker 2: we had with Adrian Black, who was just transitioning when

476
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:14,520
Speaker 2: we interviewed her. She was a former white supremacist oh wow,

477
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:18,720
Speaker 2: who was David Duke's poster child and was like doing

478
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:24,520
Speaker 2: white nationalists radio programs and eventually denounced it and it's

479
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,600
Speaker 2: now very outspoken. But she talked about how there were

480
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:33,240
Speaker 2: sort of like two different types of interaction with her beliefs,

481
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,200
Speaker 2: and there was like both the people who would loudly

482
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,280
Speaker 2: denounce the kinds of thing she would be talking about,

483
00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:42,479
Speaker 2: the racism, and then there would be people who would

484
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:46,960
Speaker 2: engage her in real conversation. And she kind of was

485
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,879
Speaker 2: talking about how both things are a little bit necessary,

486
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:53,639
Speaker 2: but if it was only the people yelling at her

487
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 2: and not anyone engaging in good faith, it might not

488
00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:00,119
Speaker 2: have penetrated. Yeah, and talked about the importance of like

489
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:04,640
Speaker 2: the people around you, like caring about people who maybe

490
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,520
Speaker 2: are in the demographic that's being impacted, being one of

491
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 2: the major factors. Yeah, so your community isn't just the

492
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:12,800
Speaker 2: like cult people, if that makes sense.

493
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:13,120
Speaker 1: Yeah.

494
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:15,879
Speaker 6: I would almost like to offer like a third way too.

495
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,119
Speaker 6: This is from when I live near the border of

496
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:24,960
Speaker 6: North Korea. I had heard that the South Korean Army

497
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 6: they had their own out speakers and they would announce

498
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 6: what time of day it was, like every ten minutes.

499
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,879
Speaker 6: They'd be like, it's one o'clock, one thirty whatever. And

500
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:37,960
Speaker 6: someone explained it to me as they know, the North

501
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 6: Koreans are so poor they don't have watches, and so

502
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,639
Speaker 6: they're helping them. But also this is a sign that like,

503
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,800
Speaker 6: if the North Koreans can start relying on the South

504
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 6: Koreans for the time of day, maybe it will break

505
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 6: through and they'll realize, like they're not all bullshit.

506
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:58,880
Speaker 1: Why is that making me cry? I don't know. That's

507
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:01,879
Speaker 1: really weird. The most beautiful thing about her.

508
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:09,360
Speaker 3: Wow, Okay, right, so they're kind of unconsciously sending them

509
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:13,480
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, they're receiving unconsciously the sign that some

510
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 3: trust some trust. So I feel like in my life

511
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 3: growing up, I had like art teachers and stuff who

512
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 3: I think maybe knew a little bit about my background

513
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 3: even though we didn't talk about it. But just like

514
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:29,720
Speaker 3: being able to go over their houses and they would like,

515
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 3: you know, I do watercolors with them and just have

516
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 3: these moments with them. Where I feel like, of course

517
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 3: we didn't talk about the church, but there was something

518
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:39,680
Speaker 3: about showing up where I was like, how are these

519
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:42,400
Speaker 3: out these they were supposed to be my enemy, these

520
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:46,919
Speaker 3: like outsiders. They were like these feminists who were teaching

521
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 3: me art, which was like not looked on very well

522
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,119
Speaker 3: in the church. Even I feel like those kinds of

523
00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 3: moments can be really important too, Yeah, because you're just subtly,

524
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 3: just by being a nice person, you're kind of undermining

525
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:04,680
Speaker 3: the church narrative.

526
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:05,159
Speaker 4: That it's the enemy.

527
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was sort of what I was inarticulately trying

528
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 2: to say about the community aspect, because like caring about

529
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,200
Speaker 2: people who are the people that you've been told are bad,

530
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 2: suddenly them being in your life, Like it doesn't necessarily

531
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,239
Speaker 2: have to be a debate, and frequently it wasn't in

532
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 2: her case. And the same is true with our other

533
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 2: former neo Nazi, Frank Mink, who full on neo Nazi,

534
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 2: who started working for a Jewish guy and just by

535
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:32,680
Speaker 2: virtue of the guy being nice and like a good

536
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:36,399
Speaker 2: person to him, it started to break through that belief system.

537
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 4: So I wasn't actually planning to.

538
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 2: Talk about how to talk to people, but I'm glad

539
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 2: we are because it's always important, especially right now when

540
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 2: so many of us are having really fractured relationships with

541
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,920
Speaker 2: our family members. I had a couple of challenging encounters

542
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:57,959
Speaker 2: recently with people in my life about immigration issues, and

543
00:26:58,040 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 2: I don't think I handled.

544
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:01,479
Speaker 4: It the best that I could.

545
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 2: It's really hard because you get, at least I do,

546
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 2: get really heated right away when I feel that people

547
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,160
Speaker 2: are being dehumanized, you know.

548
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 4: Like there's no right answer.

549
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 2: We all have a different role in how we respond

550
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:16,959
Speaker 2: to the people who are engaging that kind of thinking.

551
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 2: But like I wish there was just like a thing

552
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 2: you could do, you know, as script.

553
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 6: Yeah, I kind of feel like what you did is

554
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 6: probably great because I feel like even just getting upset

555
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,159
Speaker 6: is a sign to them like, oh, like you know,

556
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:36,879
Speaker 6: like did I maybe say something wrong or maybe I

557
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,119
Speaker 6: should be a little bit more careful before running my

558
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:42,560
Speaker 6: mouth about like dehumanizing other people.

559
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:46,120
Speaker 2: I think that's true in some cases, like when it's peers. Yeah,

560
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 2: But I do think that for people like who watch

561
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 2: Fox News a lot, Yeah, they've been primed to think

562
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:57,120
Speaker 2: that anyone who's like liberal or leftist is hysterical.

563
00:27:57,720 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 4: Not living in reality.

564
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 2: So for case is like that, I really want to

565
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,679
Speaker 2: try to maintain my composure and be like, why do

566
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,360
Speaker 2: you think that? Did you know that there's been research

567
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,159
Speaker 2: that actually said this, just saying that's why I think it?

568
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 6: You know, I know some it really helps to sometimes

569
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:15,879
Speaker 6: like read up on some of these issues so you

570
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,120
Speaker 6: can like have something in your head where you can

571
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 6: just like throw it out there. I will say, like

572
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,120
Speaker 6: I'm good at doing that with some issues more than others.

573
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 6: For like trans writes, I feel like I'm pretty well

574
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 6: read up on that. But weirdly, for like feminists, like

575
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 6: if someone comes in and says something like negative about women,

576
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 6: I feel like then I'm put on the spot, you know,

577
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 6: when it like personally is about could be about me.

578
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 6: I'm like, you know what, I'm going to just shut

579
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 6: off and like leave you alone. Like I'm not gonna

580
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 6: engage with people. I'll leave that to some dude to

581
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 6: like yell at you about or something.

582
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 2: Because it's having to defend your own dignity and humanity.

583
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 1: To find their own humanity.

584
00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, which is why it is so important to

585
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 2: speak up for the groups that we are not in. Yeah,

586
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 2: so let's talk about your Salon article and some of

587
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 2: the parallels that you are seeing right now in our

588
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 2: political environment.

589
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 6: Well, I was just thinking about how as we talked,

590
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 6: my parents joined the church kind of by being picked

591
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 6: up on this street. And then and with the deep programmers.

592
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 6: Yeah yes, And then there was this big uproar about

593
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 6: like deep programmers and being kidnapped, and the church was saying, hey,

594
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 6: you guys are kidnapping like our members. These are the

595
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 6: stories I grew up on, and I still see the

596
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,959
Speaker 6: ripple effects to this day with like family members who

597
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 6: still have fractious relationships to each other. And then of

598
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 6: course with my parents be so over the top armed,

599
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 6: like they're literally in a splender call where they wear

600
00:29:58,800 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 6: bullet crowns.

601
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 2: Now that's out the bullet crowd.

602
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 1: I don't know.

603
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 6: I thought you were up on your cult knowledge.

604
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 1: The crowns made of bullet Oh yeah wow. And this

605
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 1: is all in the name of love.

606
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 6: We have to yeah, yeah, we love you so much.

607
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 6: We need to protect you at all costs.

608
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 3: And that means everybody has a jack. Everyone needs to

609
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 3: have all the guns.

610
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 2: This is a quote from you. It's reminiscent of when

611
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 2: the Unification Church promoted world peace while manufacturing weapons, or

612
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 2: how the Sanctuary Church created the peace police peace militia.

613
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 2: I don't know why I need peace Twice, I know

614
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 2: a group of armed cult member, a group of armed

615
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 2: cult members quote practicing to be deadly because they love people.

616
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 4: What's the logic there?

617
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 6: So I was still talking to my dad when that

618
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 6: peace police idea came about the.

619
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 1: Peace police peace.

620
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 6: Now I've noticed it is a peace militia as well,

621
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 6: so and I remember I didn't argue with him that

622
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 6: much about things growing up, and that's one where I said, like,

623
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 6: that makes absolutely no sense to me.

624
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 1: And he was like, you know, like you could get

625
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 1: raped going to McDonald's, you need to have a gun

626
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 1: with you.

627
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 6: And I was like, I am a clumsy person because

628
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 6: I've discussed like I'm gonna like shoot myself in the

629
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 6: foot before I cause any harm to others. And that

630
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 6: just I've never liked guns when I was a kid.

631
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 6: We didn't actually have guns when I was a kid,

632
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 6: and so I didn't grow up around them.

633
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 3: And now your parents are strapped. They have giant weapons

634
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 3: and they're wearing crowns made of bullets. And for the record,

635
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 3: I come from a hunting family in the Midwest, there's

636
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 3: nothing wrong with being a gun owner, like I think, inherently. Sure, No,

637
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 3: not inherently, I mean, and it's necessary to hunt deer

638
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 3: in a lot of the country.

639
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 6: So when I was a kid in rural Pennsylvania, yes,

640
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,240
Speaker 6: some of the church dads had their own little hunting

641
00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 6: group and they would go and hunt deer and then

642
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 6: feed up everyone for a while on it. And I

643
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 6: thought that was fine. And I still think that's fine,

644
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 6: even though I'm a vegetarian and I think, yeah, deer

645
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 6: can be a huge problem. That being said, I'm like

646
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 6: not a fan of handguns or most guns, and I'd

647
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 6: be happy if they all got taken away. Yeah, maybe

648
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 6: just give someone a boone arrow or like a musket

649
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 6: or something. Yeah, which, by the way, a lot of

650
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 6: my family used bone arrow. Yeah, my brother's really into

651
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 6: bone and arrow, so like, great, have fun. I will

652
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,800
Speaker 6: not do that either, but yeah, so but this is

653
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 6: much different. This is taking like a bunch of assault

654
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 6: rifles and they're also part of their churches, like they

655
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 6: own a gun manufacturing company.

656
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 1: Holy shit.

657
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think that the idea of safety

658
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 2: is being weaponized in a very serious way, which obviously

659
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 2: that's a conservative versus progressive thing in general, but right

660
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 2: now in particular, the demonization of immigrants is being you know,

661
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 2: sort of sanitized as keeping the country safe while engaging

662
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 2: in myriad falsehoods about what threat people who are immigrants

663
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 2: actually present to the US, which in fact, they commit

664
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 2: crimes at the significantly.

665
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 4: Lower rates exactly the people who were born here.

666
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 2: It's that demonization of an entire group of people for

667
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 2: me that echoes of so much cultic thinking.

668
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, me too.

669
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 6: I feel like, so we were talking about how my

670
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 6: parents join at a time where a lot of people

671
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 6: were protesting the Vietnam War, then realizing like, why are

672
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 6: you sending us over there to die? This doesn't make

673
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:37,239
Speaker 6: any sense, Like we can't trust the government. And I

674
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 6: feel like even though the Iraq War is not the

675
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 6: same as the Vietnam War, we didn't have a draft.

676
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 6: I feel like there's been similar conditions over the past

677
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 6: few decades where income inequality has risen to such a

678
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 6: level and most mainstream politicians haven't really at first, they

679
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 6: don't even acknowledge it. You know, Biden was like, well,

680
00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 6: you know, the S and B five hundred is up,

681
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 6: or you know, when they would kind of try and

682
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 6: explain it away, or they would offer like these solutions

683
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 6: that didn't really work. And I feel like those conditions

684
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:16,280
Speaker 6: left a country that was just like, hey, we're busting

685
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:20,040
Speaker 6: our asses and we're not making any money. We're like

686
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 6: not able to send our kids to college. Like something

687
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 6: is wrong here. This is not working for us, and

688
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 6: the politicians were not really acknowledging that. And so then

689
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 6: you have people on the right, like Trump and his

690
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 6: cronies giving you at least an answer that makes sense

691
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:46,320
Speaker 6: to you. Yes, and that'sperienced, and it's the only answer

692
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:50,320
Speaker 6: out there right now, and so people have latched onto

693
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:54,840
Speaker 6: that and it makes sense. Like personally, I am super left,

694
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,320
Speaker 6: and I don't think any of that is actually accurate,

695
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 6: Like what their escape goes voting and what Trump is

696
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:05,239
Speaker 6: saying is absolutely not correct. But it's giving something for

697
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:07,799
Speaker 6: angry people to keep hold of to make sense of

698
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:08,279
Speaker 6: their world.

699
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:10,799
Speaker 4: One hundred percent. Did you read Doppelganger?

700
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 6: I read some of it and my listener interviews.

701
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:16,399
Speaker 4: I love Nami Klink.

702
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:18,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm halfway through the book, but that's that's one

703
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 2: of the major themes of her book as well, which

704
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 2: everybody highly recommend yes, establishment politicians did not provide an

705
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 2: answer for people, which left a vacuum for bad actors

706
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 2: to be like I have.

707
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 4: The person to blame, and it's people of color.

708
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 6: Ye, or it's like trans tine, yeah say. And then

709
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 6: you can see with the recent New York election, zoron

710
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:42,799
Speaker 6: mom Donnie, like he's doing really well in New York

711
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:47,400
Speaker 6: because he's prioritizing affordability and things that people actually really

712
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 6: care about. And so there are people who voted for

713
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 6: Trump who are now voting for Zoran who's like very

714
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 6: left wing democratic socialists, but he's you know, not tied

715
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,799
Speaker 6: to all these billionaire donors like the rest of the

716
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 6: democratic establishment.

717
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 4: Yeah.

718
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 2: I mean it also echoes of a cult to me

719
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:10,319
Speaker 2: in that there is this billionaire class that is benefiting

720
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 2: from all of the inequality that's happening. And meanwhile, like

721
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:18,799
Speaker 2: the escapegoating, this black and white thinking is being used

722
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:19,640
Speaker 2: as a tool to just.

723
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 4: Make more money and get more power and turn people

724
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 4: against each other in the process.

725
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 6: Because if they're fighting each other, then they're not noticing

726
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:30,320
Speaker 6: this billionaire pulling the strings.

727
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 3: Right, I will say too, like the two party system

728
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 3: is just always going to like I remember a couple

729
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 3: of years ago, I was like, I don't think Biden

730
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:39,360
Speaker 3: should run for office. I said it on this podcast,

731
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 3: and I got a million DM saying like, you support

732
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:44,160
Speaker 3: Trump and your blah blahlah.

733
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I was like, no, I just think he's

734
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:47,800
Speaker 4: going to lose.

735
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:49,360
Speaker 1: I don't.

736
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 3: So you weren't really allowed to say that you didn't

737
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 3: think he should run for president.

738
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:57,239
Speaker 1: Like that was like everyone was so stressed out.

739
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:01,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so it just got really like complicated because

740
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:04,279
Speaker 3: like people acted like you were a conspiracy theorist who

741
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 3: was crazy. If you were like I don't think he's

742
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 3: like maybe cognitively up for the job, They're like he's great.

743
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:13,919
Speaker 6: He was like, yeah, yeah, he's the only chance we Yeah,

744
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 6: even though the even though it was terrible, Yeah.

745
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna sound like Bernie bro Bernie would have won.

746
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 2: I know, I agree with you completely. The two party

747
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 2: system is a huge problem. We have no good options

748
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 2: right now, and it makes sense that people are just

749
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:35,759
Speaker 2: picking whatever sounds like it's going to solve something. But

750
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 2: what doesn't make sense is kidnapping people off this street.

751
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 6: I know, I know, I just found the first week

752
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:48,440
Speaker 6: kind of happened. I was like, oh, so I've been

753
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 6: worried about my own parents just randomly showing up with

754
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 6: crazy guns, and now everyone gets to worry about like

755
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 6: crazy people showing up with guns and everywhere. Yeah, sorry, guys,

756
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:04,279
Speaker 6: welcome to my world. Although I have to say, like,

757
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,280
Speaker 6: you know, as a citizen, and you know, a white person,

758
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:10,279
Speaker 6: I know that I have like way more privilege than

759
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 6: so many of our neighbors out there today.

760
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 3: As a person with her parents wearing bullet crowns, We're

761
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:20,239
Speaker 3: going to give you some leeway. But you also you're,

762
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:23,719
Speaker 3: like as a fellow white person, Yeah, my parents aren't

763
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:25,719
Speaker 3: wearing bullet grounds though, so you have a little more.

764
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 3: But maybe something I have, like I've experienced this for

765
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:31,840
Speaker 3: so long, maybe I have some insights for people.

766
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 1: Well, thank you doo.

767
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, also pointing out like citizens are being detained as

768
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:40,759
Speaker 2: well and disappearing. And of course, in our last episode

769
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 2: that was not a rewind before we went on hiatus

770
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 2: I talked about Mamu Khalil Mosimadowi, who were legally here

771
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:52,880
Speaker 2: and we're targeted strictly for their speech, which is incredibly dangerous.

772
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 2: A silencing of descent is one of the biggest size,

773
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 2: the biggest side of authoritarianism and even fucking Rosi o'donald

774
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 2: tried to was like she wants her back in Ireland,

775
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:07,399
Speaker 2: threatening to revoke her citizenship this week.

776
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 6: I mean yeah, but I mean like even besides all that,

777
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:13,839
Speaker 6: there's now like who are these ICE people we don't

778
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 6: even know. Then there's like freaking people pretending to be

779
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 6: Ice right that are like assaulting women on the street.

780
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 6: Ice was in my neighborhood and they were pointing guns

781
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 6: at people just driving by the intersection. They were at

782
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 6: like something's gonna happen. It's not good. We're all like

783
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 6: I don't care who you are. We're all like we're

784
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:35,760
Speaker 6: especially in dangerous.

785
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:37,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, we're in it.

786
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:40,360
Speaker 2: But I would urge folks to if you are feelings

787
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 2: has to get involved in the advocacy and like show

788
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:48,359
Speaker 2: up to actions because it's only by like combining forces, and.

789
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:53,320
Speaker 6: Like what you were saying about protesting and talking to people,

790
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:57,120
Speaker 6: I think the answer is doing everything to combat this.

791
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 6: Like I remember being a little kid and the Unification

792
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 6: Church was protested, and I remember being really scared in

793
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:07,880
Speaker 6: that moment. But I think it was important, really important

794
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,400
Speaker 6: for me to see like, Okay, not everyone believes in

795
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:14,360
Speaker 6: this church, maybe take a second look, Like maybe this

796
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:17,920
Speaker 6: doesn't work for the ice assholes who are there, like

797
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:20,520
Speaker 6: right there with the guns, but maybe it gives other

798
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:23,680
Speaker 6: people like a little bit of hesitation or a little

799
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,399
Speaker 6: bit like just put something in their brain like why

800
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:27,759
Speaker 6: are all these people.

801
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:28,960
Speaker 1: So upset with me?

802
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:32,239
Speaker 3: Right? And I think you really said it while in

803
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,799
Speaker 3: your article of taking space to do meaningful things in

804
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 3: your community that are small as well so that you

805
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 3: really feel connected to change.

806
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:44,359
Speaker 6: Well, I think protesting can even be part of that

807
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 6: because you're also out there showing your neighbors that you

808
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 6: care about them. And then there's other things you can

809
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 6: do like buy out your local Tamali stand or you know,

810
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:57,719
Speaker 6: be involved in different groups who are helping patrol and

811
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:01,840
Speaker 6: instead of getting mired in their crazy arguments and getting

812
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:05,840
Speaker 6: lost in their stupid logic, you're like focusing your energy

813
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:09,360
Speaker 6: on like creating a better life for you and your community.

814
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:11,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you said plant some seeds, give somebody

815
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:15,799
Speaker 3: some socks, like take it to reality and just said

816
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 3: something simple.

817
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 2: And yeah, I'm just going to shout out Ktown for

818
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:21,239
Speaker 2: All is a great organization here in LA that's been

819
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:24,520
Speaker 2: buying out street vendors to protect them from ice.

820
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:26,959
Speaker 4: La is also great pization right.

821
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 6: Natalon is great too. They've been in Pasadena for a

822
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 6: long time. They're the National Day Laborers Organizing Network. And

823
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:38,840
Speaker 6: also right after the Eaten fires, they were on the ground,

824
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 6: like the day after cleaning up all the debris left

825
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:45,839
Speaker 6: in Pasadena, so they were there doing the fires there.

826
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 6: Right now they have a box truck going around making

827
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 6: announcements when ice is around, they're holding vigils. They're like,

828
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 6: there's so I think that's the silver lining of this

829
00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 6: moment is seeing like how many heroes we live amongst

830
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 6: where where it's just like all of these like grassroots

831
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:06,319
Speaker 6: groups and people throwing in twenty dollars or stopping the

832
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:10,440
Speaker 6: videotape and ice rate or you know, we're all doing

833
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 6: what we can.

834
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:15,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, you mentioned the importance of protests in terms of showing.

835
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 1: People that you care.

836
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 2: I've read this really great article and now I'm not

837
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:21,360
Speaker 2: going to remember which publication it was, I'll have to

838
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:23,799
Speaker 2: find it, but just talking about how you know, a

839
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:26,839
Speaker 2: lot of us became disillusioned with the idea of protesting

840
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:29,400
Speaker 2: because it felt like it wasn't achieving anything, and in many.

841
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 4: Cases that is true.

842
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:34,160
Speaker 2: But what it does achieve is it shows people how

843
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 2: other people feel. Yeah, and we can lose sight and

844
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:41,920
Speaker 2: we can become hopeless about being capable of creating any

845
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:44,880
Speaker 2: change when we think that everybody else is living in

846
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 2: a different reality and they don't feel the same way

847
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:50,759
Speaker 2: that we do. And there's something so important about grounding

848
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 2: in reality, like this is the public sentiment on this

849
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:58,320
Speaker 2: issue right now, and so like even when it feels

850
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:01,720
Speaker 2: pointless showing up, can action be impactful? Just at least

851
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:04,799
Speaker 2: in that way to be like, No, we care about immigrants,

852
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:06,759
Speaker 2: and you're not alone if you care about it, and

853
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:08,719
Speaker 2: we're not all giving up, like we're out here and

854
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 2: we're doing it, and so you can hopefully feel inspired.

855
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 4: To do something too.

856
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:16,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean your your take on all of this

857
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:21,440
Speaker 3: is so important and it's just such a cool voice

858
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 3: to hear in both spaces. I'm yeah, pretty obsessed, to

859
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:32,279
Speaker 3: put it mildly, Well, thank you, so you call it

860
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:38,840
Speaker 3: too slowly backs away? Do we have any like words

861
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:42,799
Speaker 3: of wisdom? Like what does real repair look like to you?

862
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:47,279
Speaker 3: Not just exiting thinking, but rejoining civic life in a

863
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:50,480
Speaker 3: meaningful way. That's a great question.

864
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:51,280
Speaker 1: Thanks.

865
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 6: I don't know if they have an answer. So I

866
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:59,719
Speaker 6: became a parent in the past few years. I will say, like,

867
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:03,920
Speaker 6: in some ways that feels insane to have a child

868
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 6: right now, but in other ways it feels like and

869
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:09,359
Speaker 6: I think you can obviously do this without a kid.

870
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:12,040
Speaker 6: It's just it's been helpful for me to realize that,

871
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:17,440
Speaker 6: like I need to not be consumed by everything going on,

872
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 6: that I have a responsibility for this child to not

873
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:27,480
Speaker 6: trauma dump on him, or I just have a responsibility

874
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 6: to give them a decent childhood and help them navigate

875
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:33,680
Speaker 6: the world. And some part of that is going to

876
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 6: be like navigating this political moment. But I feel like

877
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:42,560
Speaker 6: it's really makes me focus on like his community of

878
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:46,279
Speaker 6: like little friends, and like my community that we live in,

879
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:51,520
Speaker 6: and just doing the generative side of pushing back against

880
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:54,840
Speaker 6: this administration, which is like creating a world that I

881
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 6: want to live in, and focusing on that, whether it's

882
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:04,400
Speaker 6: you know, planting native flowers or buying more local or

883
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 6: supporting my local immigrant rights groups or whatever I'm doing,

884
00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:10,799
Speaker 6: it's like I'm trying to focus on that so I'm

885
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:14,879
Speaker 6: not just only doom scrolling and only panicking about our

886
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:18,719
Speaker 6: really really shitty leaders right now. So there's yeah, there's

887
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 6: a focus on like what do I want the future

888
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:22,799
Speaker 6: to be like? And I feel like that can't just

889
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:24,919
Speaker 6: be like, oh, I'm gonna make you know, your room

890
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 6: really pretty or something like. It needs to be like

891
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:28,920
Speaker 6: more substantial than.

892
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:33,399
Speaker 4: That, right, community oriented, yeah, which is what cults are

893
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 4: so good at supplying.

894
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 1: So we have to give it in healthy doses.

895
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:41,200
Speaker 6: Well, I feel like i've been It's funny. I was

896
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:47,719
Speaker 6: listening to a few of your your episodes, and I

897
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:51,719
Speaker 6: feel like, for me, cults are like just a big

898
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:55,320
Speaker 6: abuse of families, you know, Like it's like that same

899
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:58,120
Speaker 6: like dysfunction and abuse, but like instead it's like with

900
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 6: a little bit weirder outfits, but it's basically the same thing, right,

901
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 6: And so with an abusive family or abusive relationship, it's like,

902
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:09,000
Speaker 6: you know, the person will tell you I love you,

903
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 6: I love you, I love you, but then they're also

904
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:13,400
Speaker 6: like hurting you at the same time, and that happens

905
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:18,560
Speaker 6: with cults and other dysfunctional relationships, and it's definitely, yeah,

906
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:21,920
Speaker 6: not healthy at all, and so you have to figure

907
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 6: out what's healthy for you.

908
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:25,080
Speaker 4: Easier said than done.

909
00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:29,799
Speaker 2: Sometimes, Yeah, I feel like a lot of that is

910
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 2: like working on yourself and figuring out, like what what

911
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:38,319
Speaker 2: your own broken parts aren't trying to heal that, and

912
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:42,959
Speaker 2: getting outside perspective from someone completely uninvolved, because we lose

913
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 2: perspective a lot of the time. I know, especially I

914
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:49,200
Speaker 2: just think about relationships that have become unhealthy. It can

915
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:52,400
Speaker 2: be so hard to like understand what is actually hurting

916
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:55,000
Speaker 2: you until you tell someone else and they're like, that's

917
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 2: not normal, you know.

918
00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:59,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah, And just having a lot of different trusted

919
00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 4: sources in your life.

920
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:02,319
Speaker 1: We always come back to that, Yeah.

921
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 6: And like having enough time to like, like whether it's

922
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 6: taking walks or doing yoga, not a yoga cult, but

923
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:14,520
Speaker 6: like doing it, like doing things that like are very quiet,

924
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:17,640
Speaker 6: so that if there are alarm bells, like you're giving

925
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 6: yourself the time to hear them. That's so true, because yeah,

926
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:24,759
Speaker 6: if you don't stop, I feel like it's easier to

927
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 6: get wrapped around the axle.

928
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:27,120
Speaker 1: Amazing.

929
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:31,160
Speaker 4: We're gonna start using that point in every episode from

930
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:31,480
Speaker 4: now on.

931
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 3: Truly, there was the guy on the Sarah Lawrence Stock

932
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 3: who got away from everybody for like two minutes and

933
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:39,359
Speaker 3: it clicked for him.

934
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean that's we hear that story over and

935
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:41,399
Speaker 4: over again.

936
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 1: Yeah.

937
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:44,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think it's true in our political climate too,

938
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 2: in terms of making sure you're taking space to consider

939
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:50,600
Speaker 2: what you're feeling, because we're activated all the time.

940
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:53,080
Speaker 6: Because they want us to be activated. I know that

941
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:57,360
Speaker 6: sounds really like conspiracy. Thereis, but like, I feel like

942
00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 6: the way that these billionaires keep getting to stay in

943
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 6: power is because we're all like so freaked out. We're overwhelmed,

944
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:07,719
Speaker 6: and we're overwhelmed, and they're trying to make us feel

945
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 6: overwhelmed so that we're more easily gullible and controlled.

946
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:16,360
Speaker 2: Totally if you yes, totally, and also at the same

947
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:20,320
Speaker 2: time sometimes you know, like if you do check out completely,

948
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:23,359
Speaker 2: oh yeah, then you're avoiding and you're not. So it's

949
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:25,400
Speaker 2: like it's just a constant balancing act. I just keep

950
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:28,440
Speaker 2: seeing memes where it's like people basically doing the splits

951
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:31,200
Speaker 2: like between two buildings and being like me trying to

952
00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:34,000
Speaker 2: take space to not let this take over my life,

953
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:36,400
Speaker 2: and me trying to like make sure I'm actually contributing

954
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:39,480
Speaker 2: on the other side, you know, and it's it's very hard.

955
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:43,319
Speaker 6: And I feel like for me, the answer changes all

956
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:45,600
Speaker 6: the time, and I'm okay, with that, Like, I feel

957
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 6: like I used to work more with organizations and lately

958
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:52,160
Speaker 6: I don't have the ability to do that in my

959
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:53,960
Speaker 6: day to day life. So I've been doing stuff like

960
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:55,839
Speaker 6: I wrote that article because I was like, oh, that's

961
00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:58,719
Speaker 6: something I can do on my own in the free

962
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:02,600
Speaker 6: time I have. You go, it fluctuates over time. Yeah,

963
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:04,319
Speaker 6: I feel like it fluctuates over time.

964
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:04,640
Speaker 5: Oh.

965
00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:07,239
Speaker 6: One tip I have is when I feel like I

966
00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:09,440
Speaker 6: can't deal with the news for a bit, what I

967
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:12,280
Speaker 6: try and do is read a book of nonfiction, especially

968
00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:14,840
Speaker 6: like a book of history that's like, you know, maybe

969
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 6: about FDR or something where you're like still learning more

970
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:21,399
Speaker 6: about the world, but it's not like the world right now.

971
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:24,960
Speaker 6: So something that helps give a little context, but you're

972
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:29,200
Speaker 6: not getting sucked into the twenty four to seven Twitter feed.

973
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:32,480
Speaker 4: Yeah it's smart. I just watched the Winston Churchill doc on.

974
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 1: Oh was it good? It's sah okay.

975
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:39,919
Speaker 2: I've just been watching Adam Curtis docs. I pus watched

976
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 2: his film No No. Incredible filmmaker. He makes these political

977
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:49,480
Speaker 2: historical documentaries that kind of weave together these like larger

978
00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:53,680
Speaker 2: narratives about what's happened from a leftist perspective, yeah, or

979
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:57,920
Speaker 2: anti capitalist perspective generally, but so smart and he's incorporating

980
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:00,200
Speaker 2: so many different cultures and movements that are happening all

981
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:01,000
Speaker 2: at the same time.

982
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:03,520
Speaker 4: Anyway, I highly recommend Adam Curtis nice.

983
00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:06,920
Speaker 6: I read I think It's Called Say Nothing by Patrick

984
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:10,160
Speaker 6: rad and Kief, which was about the troubles in Ireland,

985
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 6: and then I read a bunch of detective stories set

986
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:15,720
Speaker 6: around the troubles in Ireland.

987
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:17,200
Speaker 1: These detective stories were true.

988
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:20,879
Speaker 6: No, those were fiction, got those were just for fun.

989
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 6: But I did read like a couple of nonfiction books.

990
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:26,040
Speaker 6: I was just like getting in that era.

991
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 1: I love it.

992
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:28,120
Speaker 4: Thank you so much.

993
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, why arranging and fascinating conversation.

994
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:35,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you so much for coming.

995
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:36,719
Speaker 4: And where do people find you?

996
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:41,239
Speaker 6: I have a website aquinacoxs dot com and I think

997
00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:45,160
Speaker 6: there's links for what I'm up to there. Yeah cool,

998
00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:48,160
Speaker 6: Thanks for having me, guys.

999
00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:53,839
Speaker 2: That concludes our interview with Aquina Cox. I am so

1000
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:56,160
Speaker 2: glad that she joined us in person. What an amazing

1001
00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:58,759
Speaker 2: first guest to have as our first episodes back with

1002
00:50:58,800 --> 00:50:59,160
Speaker 2: Trust Me.

1003
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:02,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was a really great first guest. So grateful

1004
00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:04,359
Speaker 3: that she made the time to come in and speak with.

1005
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:08,399
Speaker 2: Us same and I'm excited to keep going with our

1006
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:11,720
Speaker 2: new home and so many more wonderful guests to come

1007
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:14,399
Speaker 2: just to recap a bit of what we talked about.

1008
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:17,280
Speaker 2: So there are organizations that if anyone in LA wants

1009
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:21,879
Speaker 2: to get involved with to combat the dehumanization and mass

1010
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:25,400
Speaker 2: deportation of people who are immigrants that is currently happening.

1011
00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:27,000
Speaker 4: Check out k Town for All.

1012
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:30,400
Speaker 2: They do great, great local work helping not only the

1013
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:34,319
Speaker 2: unhoused population but also people who are at risk of

1014
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:38,120
Speaker 2: iced deportation. Chir Law, the Coalition for Humane Immigrant Rights

1015
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 2: Union Del Barrio does some really amazing stuff as well

1016
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:44,720
Speaker 2: as La Tenants Union, and there are more I'm learning

1017
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:47,560
Speaker 2: about all the time. And this is all to say

1018
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:49,799
Speaker 2: if you're feeling panicked like I am, one of the

1019
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:52,359
Speaker 2: things that can really help is at least taking some

1020
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:57,000
Speaker 2: small action to feel like you have some agency over

1021
00:51:57,040 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 2: at least your little corner of the city or the world.

1022
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:05,279
Speaker 3: Yes, consistent small action indeed, and indeed, thank you for

1023
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:07,839
Speaker 3: listening to an episode of Trust Me. We can't wait

1024
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:10,520
Speaker 3: to see you again next week. Make sure to rate

1025
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:12,839
Speaker 3: us five stars if you're going to rate us less

1026
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 3: than just don't even bother it, and as always, remember

1027
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:19,279
Speaker 3: to follow your gut, watch out for red Flatt, and

1028
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:22,000
Speaker 3: never ever trust me.

1029
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:27,840
Speaker 4: Bye bye. This has been an exactly right production hosted

1030
00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:28,200
Speaker 4: by Me.

1031
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:32,000
Speaker 3: Lola Blanc and Me Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer is G.

1032
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:32,480
Speaker 1: Holly.

1033
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:34,640
Speaker 4: This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

1034
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:38,080
Speaker 3: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker

1035
00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:39,240
Speaker 3: is Patrick Kottner.

1036
00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:41,960
Speaker 4: Our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1037
00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:46,239
Speaker 3: Trust Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgareth, Georgia Hartstark

1038
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:47,280
Speaker 3: and Daniell Kramer.

1039
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:49,800
Speaker 2: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me podcast

1040
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:52,080
Speaker 2: or on TikTok at trust Me Cult podcast.

1041
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:55,480
Speaker 3: Got your own story about cults, extreme belief, our manipulation,

1042
00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:58,840
Speaker 3: Shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

1043
00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:01,839
Speaker 2: Listen to trust Me on the i heeartradio app, Apple Podcasts,

1044
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:03,480
Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts

1045
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:10,160
Speaker 1: M