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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six.

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Speaker 2: Trust that's three four seven eight six eight seven eight

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Speaker 2: seven eight.

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Speaker 1: Or she had us an email at trustmepod at gmail

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Speaker 1: dot com.

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Speaker 2: Trust me, Trust trust me.

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Speaker 3: I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 4: I've never lived. To you, I never had a live.

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Speaker 2: If you think that one person has all the answers,

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Speaker 2: don't welcome to trust Me. The podcast about colts, extreme

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Speaker 2: belief and manipulation from two boss babes who actually experienced it.

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Speaker 2: I'm Lola Blanc and.

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Speaker 4: I'm Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 2: This week our guest is Emily Paulson. She's the author

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Speaker 2: of hey Han and a former member of an MLM.

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Speaker 2: She's calling Rejuvenate. She's going to talk to us about

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Speaker 2: how she first was introduced to Rejuvenate by a friend

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Speaker 2: from school and how it seemed like the perfect way

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Speaker 2: to bring purpose an extra income to her stay at

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Speaker 2: home mom lifestyle.

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Speaker 1: She'll talk about how her circumstances put her in the

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Speaker 1: and unlikely position of actually being really good at it,

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Speaker 1: becoming a top seller who was put on display as

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Speaker 1: a success story, and how much of a myth that

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Speaker 1: was considering the vast, vast majority of MLM salespeople never

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Speaker 1: turn a profit.

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Speaker 2: We'll also discuss the role that her alcoholism played and

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Speaker 2: how the ethics of the stark inequality between downlines at

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Speaker 2: the bottom and uplines at the top began to make

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Speaker 2: her question everything, plus how she was encouraged to use

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Speaker 2: her cancer diagnosis to sell more and what made her

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Speaker 2: finally leave. Before we dive in with Emily Paulson, Megan,

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Speaker 2: I would love to know what your cultiest thing is.

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Speaker 4: Well, today it's our cultiest thing, Lola.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, my bad.

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Speaker 1: We're sharing one today because it's so delicious, so scrumptious,

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Speaker 1: so insane.

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Speaker 2: That's scrumptious.

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Speaker 4: We just must simply share.

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Speaker 1: We talked about the biotech ceo who was going to

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Speaker 1: reverse his age. He had a very specific program that

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Speaker 1: was costing him two million dollars a year, and other

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Speaker 1: sources it says it was more than that.

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Speaker 4: Who knows.

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Speaker 1: All that we know is that it was absolutely an

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Speaker 1: insane amount of money.

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Speaker 2: And he has decided finally it's not working. I'm so shocked.

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Speaker 2: I can't believe it. Oh my god, he did a

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Speaker 2: blood transfusion with his father and his son, or his

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Speaker 2: son's blood was pain into both of them, not taking

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Speaker 2: his older father's blood. Right, I'm not sure because I

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Speaker 2: think it was like if you the idea was like

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Speaker 2: you take a young person's blood and put it into

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Speaker 2: an older person.

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Speaker 4: Listen.

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Speaker 1: All I know is that there is the most unhinged

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Speaker 1: photograph I've ever seen in my entire life of him,

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Speaker 1: his father, and his son all in white tank tops,

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Speaker 1: like holding each other on each other, like not leaning

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Speaker 1: on each other, embracing each other, like they're in the

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Speaker 1: cover of a romance novel.

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Speaker 4: Wait, can we look at it about blood transfusions? Yes,

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Speaker 4: there are so many.

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Speaker 2: There are all these photoshoots of father and son together

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Speaker 2: to where they're like holding vials, and it's supposed to

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Speaker 2: be this like you know, amazing billionaire science. But it

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Speaker 2: turns out not a thing, not a thing he is.

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Speaker 2: It's not working. He is not reversing his aging. And

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Speaker 2: when you look at a space, I mean, listen, there

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Speaker 2: is nothing wrong with aging, but my dude does not

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Speaker 2: look that much younger than he is, I would.

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Speaker 4: Say, no, nope, he doesn't.

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Speaker 2: His son is seventeen. By the way, imagine being the

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Speaker 2: teenager subjected to this where your.

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Speaker 4: Dad is like I need your.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, and grandpa yeah grandpa. I mean it's sweet

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Speaker 2: to try to make your grandpa also live. I mean,

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Speaker 2: your father all live forever for the son, for the son.

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Speaker 4: He he. He's quoted at one point saying I plan

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Speaker 4: to never die.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know if that plan is off the

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Speaker 1: table now or it sounds as if it might be.

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Speaker 1: The cult of anti aging has not lept for it

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Speaker 1: as much as he had hoped.

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Speaker 2: So we don't want anyone to die, but you're just

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Speaker 2: really setting yourself up for.

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Speaker 4: Beautiful anyone to die. You want us to be here forever.

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Speaker 2: Listen, I'm not celebrating anyone's death, but you really are

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Speaker 2: setting yourself up to be trolled at the exact moment

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Speaker 2: of your death because everyone thinks it's so funny because

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Speaker 2: of how obsessed you are with not dying.

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Speaker 4: That's kind of true.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I get it. Listen. I'm like life ending

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Speaker 2: very scary. I don't believe in and afterlife. I don't

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Speaker 2: want to do that.

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Speaker 4: The shall you don't want to nap forever.

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Speaker 2: Well, that makes it sound nice, Okay, I changed my mind.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so so, I mean a sad day for those

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Speaker 1: of us who are.

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Speaker 4: Counting on it.

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Speaker 1: It's also just like side note, very odd to me.

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Speaker 1: How many people I talked to and I think you.

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Speaker 4: And I growing up in very religious.

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Speaker 1: Cults, like death was talked about. Like a lot of

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Speaker 1: people I know fully don't plan on dying. They've never

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Speaker 1: known anyone who dies. They're like, oh, they're like yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not like technology will advance to the

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Speaker 1: point that I what so many people, especially younger people,

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Speaker 1: because they just.

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Speaker 2: Fully are like, yeah, we're gonna defeat death by the

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Speaker 2: time I'm fake or whatever. I mean, like they might

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Speaker 2: not be wrong, right, which is it pisses me off,

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Speaker 2: to be honest.

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Speaker 1: That's it's so unfair. But I don't want to live forever.

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Speaker 1: But but but it's not it's probably not true, and

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Speaker 1: it's odd to like have no concept of yourself ending.

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Speaker 4: I know.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's just like it's an interesting like psychological

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Speaker 2: challenge because it's like there's nothing that you can do

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Speaker 2: about it, and like when you're forced to contend with

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Speaker 2: that it's like, Okay, what do you really value?

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Speaker 4: Who are you?

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Speaker 3: How?

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Speaker 2: How do you conceive of your present moment? But if

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Speaker 2: you don't have to face that, or you don't think

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Speaker 2: that you have to face.

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Speaker 4: That totally different experience of being.

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Speaker 2: Alive, Yeah, I'm like, what is this bizarre, shallow existence

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Speaker 2: that that.

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Speaker 4: I envy so deeply?

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Speaker 2: And I envy so deeply? Okay, are you kidding me?

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Speaker 2: Not having to like stay up at night and be like,

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Speaker 2: but why is time?

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Speaker 4: What's the void? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: No, It's been a very odd experienced me. So that

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Speaker 1: just throned that out there that if you didn't have

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Speaker 1: to go to twenty open casket funerals a weekend like

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Speaker 1: I did.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 4: You know, death is very rare to people.

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Speaker 2: We talked about death, but it was very much in

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Speaker 2: the context of the afterlife, so it wasn't like I

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Speaker 2: really thought about It was more like, oh, I can't

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Speaker 2: wait to go to the celestial Kingdom and be with

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Speaker 2: my family.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I had to like watch people die, like

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Speaker 1: be with dying people. I once did a really funny

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Speaker 1: bit when someone died, I basically walked in.

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Speaker 4: It was this ninety year old woman.

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Speaker 1: We were going to visit and we were like hi,

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Speaker 1: and then we like went and touched her and she

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Speaker 1: was dead, and I was like, nobody move, We've got

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Speaker 1: to like figure out who did this.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, death was like fun.

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Speaker 1: I mean, my parents were both in the like my

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Speaker 1: das had talked around the Yeah, so it helps chill air.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, people really whatever anti aging cults death, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, It's just this is.

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Speaker 2: The like, sure, women join a lot of cults are

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Speaker 2: like go to psychics or whatever. Men get obsessed with

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Speaker 2: not dying, and I think it's super interesting.

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Speaker 1: So well, this cult was about our skin not dying,

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Speaker 1: you know, like her products that she was selling.

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Speaker 2: Right right, Well that's like prolonging beauty and prolonging value

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Speaker 2: in society. But I feel like there's this very like

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Speaker 2: I'm not saying that this is the thing that ment it,

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Speaker 2: but it just seems to be predominantly male in this

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Speaker 2: space for sure, in the like biohacking space, and I'm

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Speaker 2: just so I just want to know more about it.

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Speaker 1: Why do they fucking care? The older they get, the

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Speaker 1: hotter we find them, and the more powerful.

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Speaker 2: And no one, no one is like ew a fifty

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Speaker 2: year old man. We're like ooh, Liam Neeson, fucking now,

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Speaker 2: It's just it's very bizarre.

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Speaker 1: I also will just add that when I did the

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Speaker 1: bit about the detective, her grandson walked in and we

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Speaker 1: were all laughing because I said the following no, and

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Speaker 1: he was like, what's so funny, grandma, and we were like, oh, no,

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Speaker 1: she's actually quite dead.

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Speaker 2: No AnyWho, I just shouted out Liam Neeson. Liam Neeson

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Speaker 2: is seventy one years old, hot, and he still getting thirsty.

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Speaker 1: He honestly looks younger than the biotype guy, does he.

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Speaker 2: She'll hear you.

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Speaker 4: I mean I don't like lean Nelson, to be quite honest.

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Speaker 2: That's because that's a different person. And his name is

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Speaker 2: Liam Neeson.

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Speaker 3: All right, Well.

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Speaker 2: Liam is hot, hashtag is and that's where we'll leave it.

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Speaker 4: MLMs.

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Speaker 2: Let's talk to Emily.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 2: This show is sponsored by Better Help. You are grown up.

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Speaker 2: You have limited time and a lot of responsibilities. People

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Speaker 2: count on you. Your coworkers, your partner, your kids, the

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Speaker 2: list goes on.

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Speaker 1: But among all the things you have to take care

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Speaker 1: of every week, how much time do you spend taking

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Speaker 1: care of you.

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Speaker 2: It's so easy to get caught up in what everyone

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Speaker 2: else needs from you and never take a moment to

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Speaker 2: think about what you need for yourself. You can leave

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Speaker 2: us feeling stretched, thin and burned out.

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Speaker 1: Luckily, Better Help online therapy can give you the tools

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Speaker 1: to find more balance in your life so you can

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Speaker 1: keep supporting others without leaving yourself behind.

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Speaker 2: We are huge champions of therapy on this podcast for

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Speaker 2: myriad reasons, but we both have gone to therapy ourselves.

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Speaker 2: It's something I think is incredibly important for us all

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Speaker 2: someone to talk to you about stuff and aren't holding

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Speaker 2: everything inside.

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Speaker 1: So if you're thinking of starting therapy, give Better Help

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Speaker 1: percent off your first month.

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Speaker 2: That's Better Help h e LP dot com slash Trust.

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Speaker 2: Welcome Emily Lynn Paulson to Trust Me. Thank you so

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Speaker 2: much for joining.

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Speaker 3: Us, so glad to be here.

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Speaker 2: You are an author of a new book called Hehn sales, diisterhood, supremacy,

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Speaker 2: and the other lies behind multi level marketing. We really

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Speaker 2: haven't had a good, juicy MLM person on yet, so

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Speaker 2: this is very exciting. So can you start us at

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Speaker 2: the beginning of your MLM journey? Where were you at

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Speaker 2: in your life? It was? Was it twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I was. I was a stay at home mom.

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Speaker 3: I had five kids, still do, but they were little

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Speaker 3: at the time, and I really was just in this

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Speaker 3: place where I was looking for something. I felt kind

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Speaker 3: of lost, I felt kind of unappreciated, I felt lonely,

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Speaker 3: all those things that I think are pretty power for

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Speaker 3: the course being a stay at home mom. And I

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Speaker 3: was done having kids finally, and I just didn't know

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Speaker 3: what I wanted to do for like my next chapter.

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Speaker 3: And at the same time, like I didn't have a

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Speaker 3: lot of options either, because my husband worked long hours,

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Speaker 3: he traveled. There was no way childcare for five kids

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Speaker 3: would pan out. Right, you know, all of my certifications

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Speaker 3: had lapsed, you know all those things. There were so

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Speaker 3: many barriers.

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Speaker 2: And wait, what were your certifications?

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Speaker 3: Oh, like I well, I had a degree in chemistry,

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Speaker 3: you know, I was a chemist before I had kids,

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Speaker 3: I had at master's in teaching, you know. But again,

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Speaker 3: you know, you're out of the workforce long enough, you

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Speaker 3: got to do things to get recertified. And that's a

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Speaker 3: big barrier because again, who's going to watch my kids

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Speaker 3: while I go do that? Right?

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Speaker 4: You know?

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Speaker 3: So I just didn't I didn't know what I was

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Speaker 3: looking for. So a friend reached out, or you know,

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Speaker 3: someone I went to high school with reached out. I'll

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Speaker 3: say that. So when I knew from high school and

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Speaker 3: we had actually never spoken before that, but she said

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Speaker 3: she was going to be in town, and honestly, she

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Speaker 3: could have been doing selling anything. She just invited me

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Speaker 3: out for wine, and I was like a night out,

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Speaker 3: sign me up, right, right. So she was meeting some

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Speaker 3: of her co workers. You know, I use a lot

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Speaker 3: of air quotes because they're not technically co workers. They're

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Speaker 3: you know, other independent consultants. And you know, it seemed

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Speaker 3: like there's these friendships. Like I walk in and there's

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Speaker 3: all these people and they seem like they're having fun

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Speaker 3: and they're all really nice. And I felt this just

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Speaker 3: instant camaraderie and like acceptance. And also I was like, oh,

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Speaker 3: that stuff looks pretty good, Like that stuff you sell

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Speaker 3: looks pretty good, and it always does because MLMs really

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Speaker 3: target all of the insecurities that like stay at home

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Speaker 3: moms have. You know, you're you're old, you need to

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Speaker 3: lose five pounds, whatever. So I thought, you know this,

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Speaker 3: this could be great. I'll try some stuff, and she

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Speaker 3: kind of convinced me that the biggest discount would be

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Speaker 3: to just sign up as a rep and I could

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Speaker 3: do as much or as little as I wanted. So

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Speaker 3: it was kind of the back doorway of getting me

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Speaker 3: to spend one thousand dollars on CREP I didn't need.

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Speaker 3: So that's really like how I got in, and that's

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Speaker 3: sort of the vulnerable place I was in when I

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Speaker 3: thought like, maybe this could be a solution to all

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Speaker 3: the things that I'm wanting.

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Speaker 1: They say, oh, you can buy it, it'll be this

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Speaker 1: amount of money, and by the time they've talked about it,

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Speaker 1: you really want it. And then but if you sign

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Speaker 1: up to sell it, then it's actually cheaper.

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Speaker 4: And so then you're like, well, then I'll sign up

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Speaker 4: to sell it.

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Speaker 2: I can't say no to a good deal. Why would

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Speaker 2: I totally get me?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I did that. I never sold the single thing.

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Speaker 1: But I was like, I need this stuff, so I yeah,

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Speaker 1: it makes perfect sense.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, everyone's done that. It's like the fomo like, well

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Speaker 3: and you can only get it right now, and you

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Speaker 3: can only buy this package now and it's only a

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Speaker 3: discount now. So to me, I was like, well, you

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Speaker 3: know I can I can send it back if I

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Speaker 3: don't like it. You know, there's a there's a return policy,

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Speaker 3: Like what's the right.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and so how did they then get you into

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Speaker 2: the next stage? How did that progress?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? So I think the really the predatory part of

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Speaker 3: it is the fact that it's friends and family who

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Speaker 3: are inviting you to these things. So even though she

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Speaker 3: wasn't like a hardcore friend, she was someone from my

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Speaker 3: hometown who I you know, I grew up in the

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Speaker 3: same town with her, it was same high school. I

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Speaker 3: had watched her on social media and seen her success,

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Speaker 3: you know, or perceived success that she got on trips

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Speaker 3: and supposedly was earning money, and so that automatically was

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Speaker 3: like a buy in. It was like, well, well, she

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Speaker 3: wouldn't lead me astray, like this is working for her

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Speaker 3: and we're very similar, We're at this very similar place

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Speaker 3: in our lives and so when I joined, then I

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Speaker 3: was automatically like, well, if I did this, why wouldn't

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Speaker 3: other people? And so that really then kind of led

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Speaker 3: into me telling other people about it, telling my friends

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Speaker 3: about it, like, Hey, this friend is you know, talk

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Speaker 3: to me about this company. These are the products I bought.

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Speaker 3: I kind of ran with ignorance a little bit because

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Speaker 3: I didn't really understand what MLMs were totally. I knew

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Speaker 3: they were kind of like a friends and family thing

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Speaker 3: that you bug your friends and family, and you know,

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Speaker 3: some of the posts on Facebook are annoying, but I

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Speaker 3: didn't really understand the ins and outs of it. And

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Speaker 3: and so that point I was like, well, she she

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Speaker 3: you know, had me sign up and thought that was

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Speaker 3: the best deal for me, So why wouldn't this be

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Speaker 3: the best deal for other people?

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Speaker 4: Right?

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Speaker 1: I've read you says somewhere that you had always been

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Speaker 1: the kind of person before who would like be commenting

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Speaker 1: on Instagram.

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Speaker 4: Like this is the best ab machine.

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Speaker 1: I'm just making some You know, you are already a

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Speaker 1: person who was trusted for suggesting products and stuff like that,

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Speaker 1: so this wasn't really a big leap for you, Like

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Speaker 1: you already liked helping people find cool shit.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, And I think that's one of the things

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Speaker 3: that ropes you in and that's one of I know,

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Speaker 3: that's one of the arguments I made for people who

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Speaker 3: had objections. I'd say, like, well, you recommend stuff from Nordstrum,

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Speaker 3: or you recommend whatever you put your you know, look

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Speaker 3: at Amazon Prime and all these things. You suggest things

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Speaker 3: to people. What's the difference, And that's kind of I

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Speaker 3: was like, well, that's true, but it's really not, because

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Speaker 3: it's completely different suggesting something to somebody because you like

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Speaker 3: it and really enjoy it, or because you get a

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Speaker 3: financial benefit to it, and also they might join your team,

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Speaker 3: and it's a completely different thing, right, I.

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Speaker 2: Mean where their trainings, how did they kind of like

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Speaker 2: program you to be a good salesperson.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so the biggest thing that they say from the

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Speaker 3: beginning is to be coachable and at all I know,

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Speaker 3: I know and like this duplication idea, so that you're

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Speaker 3: supposed to do the things that you're uplined. So this

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Speaker 3: friend who invited me, who I ended up joining, you know,

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Speaker 3: I'm supposed to do the things that she suggests that

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Speaker 3: I do, because obviously that's how she was successful. And

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Speaker 3: so they layne, Yes, this is my upline, and yes.

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Speaker 2: Upline for those who don't know, I means the person

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Speaker 2: who kind of brought you in, right, yeah, take a

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Speaker 2: commission of your.

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Speaker 3: Yes, exactly.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 3: So the person I joined gets a cut of my sales,

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Speaker 3: and then the person she joined gets a cut of

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Speaker 3: them too, and her it's you know, that's that's the

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Speaker 3: pyramid forever. Yes, yeah, and then I brought in.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, there's an ending.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's an and then the people I bring on

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Speaker 3: are then my down line. I'm their upline. Cool, so yeah,

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Speaker 3: that's the upline downline thing. So you know, from the

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Speaker 3: get go. The first day I signed up, she gave

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Speaker 3: me this list of like scripts to send people. She

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Speaker 3: gave me, you know, memory joggers, so I could think

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Speaker 3: of everybody I knew. You know, that's one of the

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Speaker 3: first things is write down everybody you know who would

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Speaker 3: buy these products from you, who you can share this with.

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Speaker 3: And you're really taught like it's just a numbers game,

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Speaker 3: like share this with as many people as you can

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Speaker 3: and then you know, see who joins, right, But it's

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Speaker 3: more complicated than that, because then you end up just

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Speaker 3: bugging people over and over and over.

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Speaker 1: And were you like a little bit embarrassed or were

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Speaker 1: you like, let's just do it, or were you like

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Speaker 1: this is annoying.

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Speaker 4: I'm annoying people.

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Speaker 3: Oh totally, I mean. And I think that's one of

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Speaker 3: the things too, that they really make sure to have

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Speaker 3: you drown out your own intuition off the bat. And

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Speaker 3: I think going out to a wine bar is that's

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Speaker 3: not a coincidence, like drink some wine and sign up.

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Speaker 3: You know, a lot of these deals are done when

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Speaker 3: you're drinking. But from the get go, I remember her

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Speaker 3: saying to me like, Okay, it's gonna feel weird to

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Speaker 3: reach out to people over DM. You know, it's gonna

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Speaker 3: feel weird when you talk to people about this. So

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Speaker 3: charity pre empted the fact that I would feel that way.

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Speaker 3: So when I did, I didn't question it because it

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Speaker 3: was like, Okay, she told me I was going to

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Speaker 3: feel uncomfortable. She told me this was going to feel

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Speaker 3: a little weird and out of my comfort zone. But

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Speaker 3: then you're also told like the only way to grow

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Speaker 3: is to step out of your comfort zone and all

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Speaker 3: these other like personal development platitudes.

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Speaker 2: Right well, and on some level, like some to like

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Speaker 2: put ourselves out there like frequently does require us to

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Speaker 2: do things that make us a little bit uncomfortable and

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Speaker 2: reach out to people we don't want to reach out to.

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Speaker 2: Like that happens. I feel like in my industry, which

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Speaker 2: is film, like that happens a lot where you're supposed

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Speaker 2: to email people that you don't want to because it's

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Speaker 2: embarrassing and you don't want you know. So I can

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Speaker 2: imagine it's not that big of a leap to be like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: like this doesn't feel good, but like, this is what

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Speaker 2: you have to do to hustle. This is what you

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Speaker 2: have to do to like have a flourishing career.

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Speaker 4: I have to do it a lot too in my

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Speaker 4: MLM job.

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Speaker 2: Oh well yeah, you do it to me all the time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And I think that's the thing too, is is we

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Speaker 3: live in this whole hustle culture and if you have

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Speaker 3: been in a typical sales job or really any you know,

436
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Speaker 3: you have to sell yourself in so many different roles.

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Speaker 3: But comparing that to the MLM, you know, it's apples

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Speaker 3: and oranges, because you know, when you're reaching out to

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Speaker 3: people about film or whatever, you're you're looking for a

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Speaker 3: specific thing right, when you're reaching out to people about

441
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Speaker 3: an MLM, you're looking to get them to do the

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Speaker 3: same thing you're doing, to get other people to do

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Speaker 3: the same thing you're doing. You're really just like recruiting humans, right,

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00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:29,800
Speaker 3: So it's not like a one on one transaction for sure.

445
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:32,800
Speaker 1: For sure, is there an alarm bell going off in

446
00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:35,479
Speaker 1: your head that's like I'm gonna run out of people

447
00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:37,840
Speaker 1: because yeah, okay, okay.

448
00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:40,200
Speaker 3: Yes, And there's a common that's one of the common

449
00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:44,119
Speaker 3: objections that people have is oh, I don't know enough people.

450
00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:47,680
Speaker 3: But then you can talk around that because it's like, oh,

451
00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:49,480
Speaker 3: well you may not know that many people, but just

452
00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:51,960
Speaker 3: think of who they know. And then again you're giving

453
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:54,280
Speaker 3: these memory joggers, like who do you know from your

454
00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:58,320
Speaker 3: elementary school and college and co workers and neighbors, and

455
00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:00,760
Speaker 3: you know they'll have a list of all these different

456
00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:05,040
Speaker 3: people my mailman. Whatever is to get you thinking outside

457
00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:07,560
Speaker 3: of the box, like you never know who that person's

458
00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:08,040
Speaker 3: gonna know.

459
00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:10,600
Speaker 2: And you're a great example because you hadn't spoken to

460
00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:13,800
Speaker 2: to your upline in years, right and right, like she

461
00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:16,760
Speaker 2: could have easily like it worked on you, so why

462
00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:19,960
Speaker 2: would you not think it would work on your contacts

463
00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:20,680
Speaker 2: or whatever, and.

464
00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:24,200
Speaker 1: Were just talking about how like upline and down line

465
00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:25,560
Speaker 1: are such great.

466
00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:29,800
Speaker 4: It's just like the perfect cult language. Yeah, and like

467
00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:32,960
Speaker 4: you're up, you're down right. I want to be up.

468
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:34,240
Speaker 4: I don't want to be down.

469
00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,720
Speaker 3: Well, in all of the promotion, like titles and stuff,

470
00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:42,639
Speaker 3: they're all very whimsical and you know like extra Star

471
00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:46,840
Speaker 3: Princess or you know, like there's always really weird Yeah,

472
00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:50,560
Speaker 3: like Elite number five, all of these kind of like

473
00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,520
Speaker 3: it's this endless chain of things that you're trying to

474
00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:57,240
Speaker 3: achieve and they all sound bizarre to the outside world,

475
00:20:57,280 --> 00:20:59,400
Speaker 3: but like when you're in the system, of course you're

476
00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:00,719
Speaker 3: like ending for it.

477
00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:02,680
Speaker 2: Well, I want to be Elite number five. I want

478
00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:04,680
Speaker 2: to be the one to be State number one.

479
00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:07,159
Speaker 4: Wait, I have Were you in a sorority?

480
00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:08,200
Speaker 3: Yes?

481
00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:13,200
Speaker 4: Do you think that this like this is very set

482
00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:15,440
Speaker 4: towards people who are in sororities kind of.

483
00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,040
Speaker 3: Oh, oh absolutely. And in fact, if you know someone

484
00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:20,960
Speaker 3: who's in a sorority, they're like a bait because then

485
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,960
Speaker 3: they have a lot of sorority systems. These things run

486
00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:28,160
Speaker 3: rampant in sorority communities and alumni sorority communities and there's

487
00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:32,320
Speaker 3: a lot of the same kind of tactics. Yeah, you

488
00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:35,800
Speaker 3: know when you think about rushing and yeah, it's I

489
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,680
Speaker 3: actually make the connection a lot in the book between

490
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:40,080
Speaker 3: sororities and MLMs.

491
00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:48,840
Speaker 2: Interesting, right wat a hood. Yeah, you found a lot

492
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:52,720
Speaker 2: of success actually in this world. How quickly did that happen?

493
00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:54,480
Speaker 2: And what was that? How did that happen?

494
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:55,400
Speaker 4: Yeah?

495
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:59,040
Speaker 3: I mean a lot of it was success to the outside.

496
00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,720
Speaker 3: I you know, I reached out to like my best

497
00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:05,560
Speaker 3: friend who joined me right away, and so that's a

498
00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:08,119
Speaker 3: huge signal boost in the company. Like wow, look Emily

499
00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:10,880
Speaker 3: got our first business partner, and so all of these

500
00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:13,679
Speaker 3: like little tiny things like that wasn't a big deal.

501
00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:18,360
Speaker 3: She did the same thing I did, but to my upline,

502
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:20,640
Speaker 3: and you know, anyone in the company was like, oh wow,

503
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,480
Speaker 3: look at you. You're making it. You're doing all the things.

504
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:26,959
Speaker 3: So all these little tiny accomplishments would get you'd get

505
00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:30,199
Speaker 3: love bond and you get all of these accolades. So

506
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:32,800
Speaker 3: when you're someone like me, who again I hadn't had

507
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,639
Speaker 3: accolades other than like a Mother's Day card for years

508
00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,440
Speaker 3: and years and years, it's like, wow, this feels really good.

509
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:41,359
Speaker 3: So you're like you're striving for those dopamine hits. So

510
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:43,560
Speaker 3: on social media it looked like I was killing it,

511
00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:46,199
Speaker 3: and like I wasn't making that much money yet, but

512
00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:49,200
Speaker 3: that just kept building and kept building. And that's really

513
00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:53,800
Speaker 3: why they have all these bonuses and ranks and and

514
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:57,320
Speaker 3: it's why the first like promotion is really easy to hit,

515
00:22:57,600 --> 00:22:59,880
Speaker 3: and so they get you. They get you with all

516
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,720
Speaker 3: of this, these love bombing hits all of the time.

517
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:05,919
Speaker 3: So it seemed like I was just killing it on

518
00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,320
Speaker 3: social media. You know, it wasn't really for you know,

519
00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:11,080
Speaker 3: until a couple of years years in when I was

520
00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:14,640
Speaker 3: making any like significant income, right, Yeah.

521
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:18,639
Speaker 2: But you did get there and many don't. And you know,

522
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:22,600
Speaker 2: what was that experience? Like, I mean there's a picture

523
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:27,000
Speaker 2: of you at an event with your face like huge

524
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:29,280
Speaker 2: on this screen and all of these women looking at

525
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:31,080
Speaker 2: you in the audience. You know, like, how did you

526
00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:31,920
Speaker 2: get to that point?

527
00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:37,160
Speaker 3: Yeah? So there was a very there's a very specific

528
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:41,200
Speaker 3: set of circumstances that you need to hit in order

529
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:45,520
Speaker 3: to succeed. But even among people who have those characteristics,

530
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:50,160
Speaker 3: many don't. So I was in early in this particular company.

531
00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:52,640
Speaker 3: There were not a lot of people in the area

532
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:54,640
Speaker 3: I was living who even had heard about it, knew

533
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 3: about it, so the area was not saturated at all

534
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:02,040
Speaker 3: that's required in order to have any sort of success.

535
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,199
Speaker 3: I also had money. I had a husband who had

536
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:09,119
Speaker 3: a stable income, and I had a big network of

537
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:13,359
Speaker 3: people who also had money, right, And it just was that.

538
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:15,439
Speaker 3: And also it was just dumb luck, Like it was

539
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,879
Speaker 3: just that set of circumstances. I got a lot of

540
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:21,879
Speaker 3: people to join or buy from me very quickly because

541
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,119
Speaker 3: they just wanted to support whatever I was doing and

542
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,679
Speaker 3: they didn't necessarily really understand it, and it kind of

543
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 3: spread from there. But again, even with that very specific

544
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:35,479
Speaker 3: you know, avatar, most people do not make money, So

545
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:37,480
Speaker 3: it was just kind of the luck of the draw really.

546
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:41,640
Speaker 2: But it is striking, how like the only fighting chance

547
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,639
Speaker 2: you have at making money is by already having money

548
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:49,800
Speaker 2: and already having privilege to then become even more privileged,

549
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:54,240
Speaker 2: and like, you know, like it's a stark example of inequality,

550
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,320
Speaker 2: just like deepening the way that it does in all

551
00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 2: of America, but in particular it seems like in this

552
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:00,879
Speaker 2: co unity.

553
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, one hundred percent. And it's also that meritocracy where

554
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,920
Speaker 3: you're told it's a very beautiful thought to think, Oh,

555
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,160
Speaker 3: I can do whatever I want with this. The sky's

556
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,399
Speaker 3: the limit. Anyone can succeed. And when I joined it,

557
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 3: it's like I see these million dollar earners up at

558
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,199
Speaker 3: the top and it's like, wow, anyone can do that.

559
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,680
Speaker 3: I can do that. That's a really wonderful thought. Except

560
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,800
Speaker 3: that's not true, right, because everybody doesn't have the same

561
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:27,320
Speaker 3: twenty four hours. Everyone doesn't have the same set of circumstances.

562
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:30,639
Speaker 3: And then when you don't make it, which most people don't,

563
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 3: who do they have to blame but themselves, because you're

564
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 3: told it's up to you, right.

565
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 4: It's such a lie all the time, such a lie positivity.

566
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So can you tell us about the lexus

567
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 2: that you air quotes earned and what happened after that?

568
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,119
Speaker 3: Yeah? So I think the free car again lots of

569
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 3: air quotes is one of the biggest. It's such a ruse,

570
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:59,159
Speaker 3: it is. It is such a fake like personification of

571
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:03,159
Speaker 3: this boss babe culture. So you get to a certain title,

572
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 3: and let's say that title is, you know, Elite number

573
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 3: five whatever, and that you get to that title by

574
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,600
Speaker 3: again recruiting people, who then recruit people who recruit people,

575
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:15,960
Speaker 3: and so you've got like your own little pyramid built, right,

576
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 3: and usually there's some sales number attached to it, like

577
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 3: you have to sell. However, many thousands of dollars in

578
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:23,440
Speaker 3: your team every month?

579
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:25,679
Speaker 4: How many people were in your team? Oh?

580
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:29,920
Speaker 3: Boy, like at the height, yeah, I mean probably over

581
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 3: like three thousand people. What I mean, I gotta say

582
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:38,920
Speaker 3: like fifty yeah. Well, and there's like a constant collapse

583
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 3: of people, you know, for everyone you bring in. I

584
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:46,919
Speaker 3: would say, honestly, like everyone who joined me personally directly,

585
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 3: I probably recruited maybe three hundred people to me personally,

586
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 3: I see of those so probably two hundred and fifty quit,

587
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 3: maybe more. But then all those people bring in people

588
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 3: who bring people, so you can see how you know

589
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:04,879
Speaker 3: that's you will allure. You're like, wow, that's how it grows,

590
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 3: That's how I can get a big paycheck. But again,

591
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:10,400
Speaker 3: most of those people quit like within a year, right, right.

592
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 2: We had on Robert Fitzpatrick who did talk a bit

593
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:15,919
Speaker 2: about how big this lie is and how rare it

594
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 2: is to actually find success in the MLM community. Do

595
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:20,680
Speaker 2: you have any statistics that you know off the top

596
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 2: of your head, just to kind of illustrate how stark

597
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 2: that discrepancy.

598
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 3: Is yeah, oh, and I didn't finish about the car,

599
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 3: which I have to finish.

600
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:27,880
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, we.

601
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:28,360
Speaker 2: Will come back.

602
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 4: Oh we're coming back to the car.

603
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:34,880
Speaker 3: Okay. So you know, across all MLMs, ninety nine point

604
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 3: seven percent of people don't turn a profit and no

605
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 3: and no, and the feedback is always like, well, I

606
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 3: know my friend so and so blah blah blah blah blah.

607
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:46,359
Speaker 3: It's like, what you have to understand is there are

608
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 3: millions of women enrolled in MLMs, and so it's not

609
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 3: that off the wall to think, oh, you may know

610
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 3: a few friends who make money, okay, but are they

611
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 3: turning a profit. They may may they may have revenue,

612
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 3: they may get a paycheck, but how much are they spending.

613
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:05,680
Speaker 3: So that's the one thing that MLMs, even in their

614
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,959
Speaker 3: income disclosure statements that are abysmal by the way, I mean,

615
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:11,680
Speaker 3: if you look at the income disclosure statements from the company,

616
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 3: they're awful. It's like you can see that most people

617
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 3: make less than a few hundred dollars a month if

618
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,360
Speaker 3: that or I mean a year, a few hundred dollars

619
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,680
Speaker 3: a year, a year, and when you consider that they're

620
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:25,639
Speaker 3: paid to play, you have to buy, like the business

621
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:29,639
Speaker 3: kit to join, you're automatically in the negative, so you

622
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:33,199
Speaker 3: automatically have lost money when you join with the hopes

623
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 3: that you'll earn it back. Most people never do another thing.

624
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 3: Most people never earn another dime past that point. And

625
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 3: also people don't in these income disclosures don't take into

626
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 3: account expenses. They don't take into account what you have

627
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 3: to pay. They don't take into account every month. You've

628
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 3: got to buy shit every month in every MLM. If

629
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 3: you want a paycheck, you have to buy stuff. And

630
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 3: they also don't take into account babysitters, all these trips

631
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 3: you have to go to. You know, you want to

632
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 3: go to convention, that's all out of pocket. There are

633
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 3: so many hidden expenses that almost nobody actually gets a paycheck.

634
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 3: Even if they're getting a paycheck, right, they're just throwing

635
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 3: it in the empty pit of money they've been spending.

636
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 2: Right, So the car is a fake free car, and

637
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 2: fake free car tell us about the ceremony.

638
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 3: So a lot of a lot of the the gifts,

639
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 3: the bonuses, the trips, they're kind of in place of income,

640
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 3: but you they're added as income at the end of

641
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 3: the year. So for example, say you earn a trip,

642
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 3: you earn a car, you earn whatever. The cost of

643
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 3: that is put on your income at the end of

644
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 3: the year. Now a trip is great, whatever is great.

645
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 3: But if you you know, if I have my paycheck

646
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 3: and it's like ten thousand dollars was a trip to wherever, Like,

647
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 3: I can't pay my mortgage with a trip.

648
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 2: Wait, so they take it out of your money.

649
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 3: It's added to your income at the end of the

650
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 3: year as if you earned that money, but you don't

651
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 3: actually get the money. So it's you. So it's like

652
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 3: if you had a boss who was like, I'm going

653
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 3: to pay you in sandwiches this week, you know, right, right, thanks,

654
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 3: but I really need money, right Yeah. So that's one way.

655
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 3: And of course they're getting the tax benefit right off

656
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 3: for all these gifts, bonuses, trips, Like there's so much there.

657
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 3: It's so devious. It's so like you see why companies

658
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 3: pick the MLM model because it's so lucrative for them

659
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 3: and not for the women.

660
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 4: Who are shilling it. Right.

661
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 3: So the car is one of those things. So the

662
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 3: car is like the driving the trophy, the rolling trophy

663
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 3: that symbolizes publicly like that you made it or you're

664
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 3: doing a good job or you've won or whatever, but

665
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 3: the car actually is not free. So again you earn

666
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 3: these promotions and you know, I hit Elite level five

667
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 3: or whatever for three months in a row. And that's

668
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 3: mostly my team's doing, not mine, because again it's it's

669
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 3: like sales in your entire down line. So this is

670
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 3: like my downline doing all the work. I don't necessarily

671
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 3: have to do anything but keep them in place. And

672
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 3: you get a you get to go to a car dealership,

673
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 3: so you're now a car earner. You go to a

674
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 3: car dealership. And again these are luxury car so it's

675
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 3: either a Mercedes or Alexis or a Cadillac, like they're

676
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 3: not you know, bargain brands. And you can lease or

677
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 3: buy whatever you want, but you're personally doing it. The

678
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 3: company is not doing it. Your name's on it. You

679
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 3: do the title, the licensing, the registration, you know, taxes.

680
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 4: You're paying all of that. You're paying for.

681
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 3: You're just buying a car like you are buying.

682
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 2: A car, and so how where's the.

683
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 4: What is how?

684
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 3: I know? So then you send all your stuff into

685
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 3: the company like oh, here I leased my car. Then

686
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 3: they will give you a stipend every month, but big butt,

687
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 3: the stipend never covers the payment because again, these are Cadillacs.

688
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 3: You know, they're expensive vehicles, and most of these people

689
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 3: are moms. Like I was, so I needed like the

690
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 3: big suv. So you know, my car payment was like

691
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 3: nineteen hundred dollars a month. They gave me a car

692
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 3: payment of seven hundred and fifty dollars.

693
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 2: Oh my god, now a step.

694
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 3: Now again, money is great, a stipend is great, but

695
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 3: you're buying something to get the payment. You are paying

696
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 3: more money than the than the payment you're getting. And

697
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 3: if you drop below like say, next month, I don't

698
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 3: earn Elite level five because I had several people quit

699
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 3: or whatever, I don't get that money. So now I'm

700
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 3: stuck with the payment.

701
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 2: So if what if you just wanted to buy your

702
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 2: fucking Toyota just like a Hant or like a Civic

703
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 2: or something, Yeah, they wouldn't cover that because they only

704
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 2: wanted to be luxury cars that make you look yes aha,

705
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 2: h y yes.

706
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 3: And so you see why you're in this conundrum where

707
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 3: you're like, well, gosh, I'm leaving money on the table.

708
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 3: I'm not getting this seven hundred and fifty dollars, So

709
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 3: I better spend two thousand dollars to get this seven

710
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 3: hundred fifty dollars. And the other thing is that people

711
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 3: know because the company blests everything on social media and

712
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 3: you're upl's blessed everything on social media, everyone knows you're

713
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 3: a car earner. Well, how can you be a car

714
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:06,239
Speaker 3: earner if you don't have a car. So that's going

715
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 3: to be really embarrassing if you've earned this title and

716
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 3: you're not driving the car. So everybody inevitably gets the car,

717
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 3: whether they can actually afford it or not.

718
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 2: Holy, it's like getting stuck in quicksand it's like, how

719
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 2: do you get out financially? It's crazy.

720
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 4: I want to get into.

721
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 1: The party that you threw for the car, but first

722
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 1: I want to ask you, like, do you did you

723
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 1: find yourself getting mad at your down ends?

724
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 4: Who would quit selling stuff?

725
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 3: That's yeah, yeah, I mean that's one of the things

726
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 3: about being in one of these, you know, commercial cults,

727
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 3: is what I really truly believe they are, is you

728
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 3: you believe so much in what you're doing because you know,

729
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 3: I did all the things I was supposed to do,

730
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 3: and it was working for me, and it's more than

731
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,959
Speaker 3: just a job. It's like a lifestyle, it's a it's

732
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 3: it's a mission, it's a purpose. And so if other yeah,

733
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 3: if other people don't see it, it's hard to understand,

734
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:08,840
Speaker 3: it's hard to relate. And you start thinking, like the

735
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 3: people who aren't succeeding, well, they must not be working

736
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 3: hard enough, because look, I worked and it worked for me.

737
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:16,279
Speaker 3: And again, all this personal development is just drilled in

738
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:19,759
Speaker 3: your head. And so yeah, it was like, well, you know,

739
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 3: you didn't make it because you know, you didn't go

740
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:25,280
Speaker 3: to convention this year, or you don't show up two events,

741
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 3: or you don't do this, so you don't do that,

742
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 3: you must not be doing something.

743
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 4: You know.

744
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 3: I really believed for so long that it was the

745
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 3: fault of the people and not the system.

746
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 2: That is so fascinating. I mean, I just feel like

747
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 2: a broken record. But it does just feel like a

748
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 2: little representation of the American dream and how much of

749
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 2: a myth it is, because those who find success and

750
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:50,840
Speaker 2: had all the privileges and had all the right circumstances

751
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:52,839
Speaker 2: tend to be the ones that are like, well, it's

752
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,280
Speaker 2: your fault if you're not successful.

753
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 3: And it really, MLMs like bastardize the worst parts of capitalists,

754
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 3: because not only are they doing all those things, but

755
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:06,320
Speaker 3: then you're not even getting paid for your labor. You know,

756
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 3: it's this unpaid labor posting on social media, going to

757
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 3: these retention events. You don't get paid for any of that.

758
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 3: And again, when you're talking about moms, it's like we're

759
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 3: already used to our labor being unpaid and exploited, So

760
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 3: what's a little more. You know, I'm already posting on

761
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 3: social media. It's sad when you think about it.

762
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 4: How many hours a day would you spend posting?

763
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:32,440
Speaker 3: I think by design you don't calculate it because again

764
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 3: it's like you can fit this in the nooks and crannies.

765
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 3: So if I was with my kids, I could be

766
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:38,880
Speaker 3: like do do do? Do you know I'm on my phone?

767
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:41,919
Speaker 3: I mean it was all day. It was all day

768
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:43,720
Speaker 3: in between everything I was doing.

769
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 2: As someone who sucks up posting on social media, it

770
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,759
Speaker 2: truly is more labor than people that think so to

771
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:53,280
Speaker 2: be promoting all the time, and it's like it's extremely

772
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 2: time consuming.

773
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:58,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, especially when there's like rules around it. You know,

774
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:01,279
Speaker 3: you don't want to post in a way that makes

775
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:03,279
Speaker 3: it seem like you're not successful. You don't want to

776
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 3: post in a way that seems like you're a hot

777
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 3: mess or a disaster or like, you know, you want

778
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:10,400
Speaker 3: your skin to look good because those are the products

779
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:13,840
Speaker 3: you're selling. There's just there's so many more rules with it.

780
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 2: That really does echo our Sorority episode from last week. Yeah,

781
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:23,759
Speaker 2: maintain the image at all costs. Yeah, so let's talk

782
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 2: about the event your car.

783
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:29,319
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh. So this is the other thing they

784
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 3: do is they have you throw a celebration when you

785
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:36,759
Speaker 3: earn your car, which again is such a joke. A car. Yeah, yes,

786
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 3: you just bought the company. Yeah, the company gives you

787
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 3: a stipend, which again is not enough to throw the

788
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:43,920
Speaker 3: party they want you to throw. So you end up

789
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 3: paying a lot of money for it, which is like

790
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 3: fine to have a party, that's great, but again you

791
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:51,800
Speaker 3: invite all these people who are in your down line,

792
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:56,360
Speaker 3: and it's like they they're sitting there watching what they want,

793
00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,799
Speaker 3: what they think they're supposed to earn, and yet like

794
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 3: knowing that there, it's so out of reach. It's so

795
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 3: out of reach because you know you've already tapped the market,

796
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 3: you've saturated the whole community, like they're not going to

797
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 3: get where you are, but you're telling them like I'm here,

798
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:17,359
Speaker 3: I'm showing up and and it's this weird like fan

799
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 3: girling celebrity thing. And I think MLMs just really thrive

800
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 3: on that. So, yeah, I had my car party. We

801
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 3: had it at a wine bar, and I earned my car,

802
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 3: and that night I drove my brand new car drunk

803
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:36,760
Speaker 3: home got arrested for a dui. So it's a perfect

804
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 3: example of like social media looked really nice. I had

805
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:44,840
Speaker 3: this car with a bow, fancy dress, and you didn't

806
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 3: see me like in handcuffs in the back of the place.

807
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 4: It's not funny, but.

808
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 3: I mean but looking back, it's like that. It's again

809
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 3: that projection of success at all costs.

810
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 2: Wow, how did alcoholism fact into this? Or do you

811
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 2: identify as an alcoholic?

812
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 4: I should ask?

813
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, you know, I don't care what people

814
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 3: call me or whatever, but I you know, I'm a

815
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 3: sober person. I don't drink. I went to AA January first,

816
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 3: twenty seventeen. So the MLM really it's very intertwined because honestly,

817
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,399
Speaker 3: what I was seeking when I joined was the same

818
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:23,320
Speaker 3: thing I was seeking with alcohol. You know, I was

819
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:25,759
Speaker 3: already someone who was using alcohol to cope. I was

820
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 3: way into that like mommy wine culture, like mommy needs

821
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 3: to drink, drinking at play dates, right, So it was

822
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:33,720
Speaker 3: already something that was a problem and that had already

823
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:36,920
Speaker 3: kind of been wreaking havoc in my life. And so

824
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,839
Speaker 3: when you're in this place where you know, here I

825
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 3: was like kind of doing things that were maybe dumb

826
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 3: and pissing people off, you know, and then now I'm

827
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:47,600
Speaker 3: in this environment with people who love me no matter what.

828
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, enables they do, are you They're like, yeah, let's

829
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 1: get this car, let's get our wine on.

830
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 4: We love that. Yeah yeah.

831
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:57,080
Speaker 3: And of course they're going to enable anything I do

832
00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:00,160
Speaker 3: because I'm making them money right right, so you know

833
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 3: you have to. It's like the more I drank, the

834
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 3: more I sold, the more I sold, the more I drank,

835
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 3: you know, I would meet people out for wine. It

836
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:09,680
Speaker 3: gave me more excuses to drink, and so it just

837
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:13,399
Speaker 3: escalated really a problem that was already there. There's these

838
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:17,160
Speaker 3: just endless parties and again people who will just enable

839
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:19,799
Speaker 3: whatever you're doing. So it's really it was really for me,

840
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 3: like in the fabric of the MLM experience. So when

841
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:28,360
Speaker 3: I got sober, I think the timing was really important

842
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,479
Speaker 3: because had I gotten sober, you know, a few months

843
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 3: or even a year into the MLM, I would have

844
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:38,360
Speaker 3: never been able to succeed because that really drowned my

845
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:41,480
Speaker 3: intuition enough to not see what was going on and

846
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:45,360
Speaker 3: to not see like the behavior and the toxicity. And

847
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:48,440
Speaker 3: so when I stopped drinking, I was already kind of

848
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:50,880
Speaker 3: at the pinnacle, and I had this team below me,

849
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 3: who again, they were doing all the work, so it

850
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 3: kept me like a float for a while. But I

851
00:39:56,680 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 3: started seeing things I didn't like. I started realizing, ooh,

852
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 3: so I don't like cold messaging people. I don't like

853
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 3: texting people over and over and bugging them to buy shit,

854
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 3: and you know, this doesn't feel good. And I started

855
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 3: seeing that people who were working really hard still weren't succeeding.

856
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:13,799
Speaker 3: So it's like the beer goggles were off for the

857
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 3: first time. And that's kind of when my intuition started

858
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 3: to come back online.

859
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:21,799
Speaker 1: That is so interesting. Yeah, and just I mean, sure

860
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:25,840
Speaker 1: there's still cognitive dissonance where you're like, but like, maybe

861
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:28,719
Speaker 1: it's still because I'm not working hard enough and I

862
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 1: just need to learn how to do it without drinking.

863
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:31,759
Speaker 4: And do you did.

864
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:36,879
Speaker 2: You see that as a theme throughout like among other women.

865
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously not everyone has an alcohol problem, but

866
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 2: did you find that it would sort of facilitate that?

867
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 3: Oh? Hell yeah, I mean it was. That's why there

868
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:50,240
Speaker 3: were things like cocktails and conversations, you know, beer and beauty.

869
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:54,759
Speaker 3: It was there was always alcohol, like I associated with events,

870
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 3: which I don't think is unusual in general, but it's, yes,

871
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:01,640
Speaker 3: that social lubricant. It of course, you're gonna be more

872
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 3: prone to like buy something if you're a little loosened

873
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:06,319
Speaker 3: up and you know, you're just willy nilly with.

874
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 2: Your credit card, right right, right? True. Well, I would

875
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:15,359
Speaker 2: love to talk about your cancer diagnosis and that part

876
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 2: of your story. Why did that happen?

877
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:18,440
Speaker 4: Yeah?

878
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,799
Speaker 3: So I was diagnosed in twenty fifteen, so, you know,

879
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:25,320
Speaker 3: just a year in and I was again, I was

880
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:29,840
Speaker 3: drinking a lot at that point. I was really drinking

881
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:32,719
Speaker 3: the kool aid also, like I was really in to

882
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 3: my MLM, and I was just like, you know, distraught,

883
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 3: and I wasn't sure what was going to happen. And

884
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 3: my upline suggested, like, hey, why don't you do a

885
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:46,280
Speaker 3: fundraiser or something. And to me, I was like, gosh,

886
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:48,440
Speaker 3: that's such a what a great idea, like such a

887
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 3: great way to like turn you know, lemons into lemonade.

888
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 3: It sounds so great. And so I had an event,

889
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:58,879
Speaker 3: you know, for with the product for like people who came,

890
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:01,880
Speaker 3: and then I would donate the profits I made for

891
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 3: that event to this charity at the local hospital. Well

892
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 3: that sounds that sounds lovely, right. However, by doing that,

893
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:14,240
Speaker 3: my uplines were getting a cut. Their uplines were getting

894
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:16,360
Speaker 3: a cut. So even though I was making good on

895
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:18,720
Speaker 3: the donation I was making, it was still requiring people

896
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:21,920
Speaker 3: to purchase something, and you know, it was giving me

897
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:24,240
Speaker 3: a signal boost because like I would get that promotion

898
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 3: or my numbers would be high or whatever. And what

899
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:30,359
Speaker 3: it's said is like at the time, I couldn't see

900
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:33,879
Speaker 3: how duplicitous that was. But I couldn't see. I thought

901
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 3: it was great, like I'm giving money to charity. But

902
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 3: if I wanted to give money to charity, I could

903
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:39,919
Speaker 3: have just said, Hey, everybody want to give me twenty

904
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:44,360
Speaker 3: dollars to give money to charity because the cut after products,

905
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:47,760
Speaker 3: you know, that's why the products are so inflated in price,

906
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 3: because you know, I would get a little bit upline,

907
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:52,400
Speaker 3: the upline upline, upline would get a little bit, the

908
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:54,960
Speaker 3: company would get some. So the amount I was actually

909
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 3: profiting off of each product was so minimal, So I

910
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 3: could have just asked people to donate, but having them

911
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:05,880
Speaker 3: buy something, it's like very It's the MLM way. And

912
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 3: you see this, you know, anytime there's a natural disaster

913
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:11,759
Speaker 3: or you know, hurricane relief, you'll see MLM's doing this

914
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 3: where they're like, by our this and we'll give you

915
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:18,399
Speaker 3: that or so it's not new, but it's so.

916
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 2: The amount that's actually going to the charity is minimal.

917
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 2: So it is just inherently deceptive.

918
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 3: Yeah right, yeah, but it feels good, right, You're like, oh,

919
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 3: I'm doing something good. So that was in twenty fifteen,

920
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:35,799
Speaker 3: and by the time I had a cancer relapse. By

921
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 3: the time that came around and I was sober, you know,

922
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:43,360
Speaker 3: this was in twenty seventeen, I realized that that was

923
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:45,840
Speaker 3: not good. Like once I that was one of the

924
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 3: wake up call things that I reflected on that first diagnosis, like, gosh,

925
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:54,080
Speaker 3: I can't believe I did that, Like, I can't believe that.

926
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:58,840
Speaker 3: I thought that was okay, you know, really exploiting a

927
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:03,160
Speaker 3: cancer story. You know, good intentions are not the impact

928
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:03,759
Speaker 3: was not good.

929
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 1: Was that just something that came to you, Like you

930
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:08,240
Speaker 1: had a lot of time to kind of be thinking

931
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:12,279
Speaker 1: and reflecting and thinking about stuff like was that a

932
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:15,040
Speaker 1: realization that you think you would have come to without

933
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 1: this kind of life or death thing hanging over your

934
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 1: head or what?

935
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 4: How did that break thirty to you?

936
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 3: I honestly think it was sobriety, Like I think it

937
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 3: was again being sober. And at that point I had

938
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:33,319
Speaker 3: gone through the twelve steps and I had gone through

939
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:35,879
Speaker 3: my list of amends with my list of resentments, and

940
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:39,719
Speaker 3: that is something that like I was recognizing as they

941
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:42,520
Speaker 3: came up. You know, it's like, oh, I see my

942
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 3: part in that. I see how I was the toxic

943
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:47,839
Speaker 3: person in this situation. And that was one of those

944
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:50,840
Speaker 3: things where I thought, Okay, I've been through this before,

945
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 3: how did I handle it last time? And I was like,

946
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:55,960
Speaker 3: I don't like how I handled that last time? Right?

947
00:44:56,960 --> 00:45:00,400
Speaker 2: Was that something like kind of embedded in the culture, Well,

948
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:04,360
Speaker 2: like if you have some kind of hardship or difficulty

949
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 2: that you've been through to kind of use that to

950
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 2: your advantage or to your uplines advantage.

951
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:12,400
Speaker 3: Oh god, yes, it is the way that MLMs survive.

952
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:16,560
Speaker 3: And my opinion is like the vulnerability porn, even if

953
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 3: it's something as small as like I had acne and

954
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:23,520
Speaker 3: now I don't, every like success story starts with a

955
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:27,920
Speaker 3: sob story. And at every convention, every retention event, it

956
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:31,400
Speaker 3: was always stories like, you know, I was an abusive

957
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:35,240
Speaker 3: marriage and now I'm doing so well. Or I got

958
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 3: paralyzed and yet I'm still living my best life. Or

959
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:42,920
Speaker 3: it was all these like horribly difficult, traumatic stories that

960
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:45,760
Speaker 3: honestly had nothing to do with the company or the products,

961
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:47,960
Speaker 3: but they were tying it to the company and products.

962
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:50,960
Speaker 3: And I when I first got sober, you know, I

963
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 3: started sharing my sobriety story at events at conventions, and

964
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:59,120
Speaker 3: you know, that was really hard too, because here I

965
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:01,160
Speaker 3: was like wanting to be of service and like I

966
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 3: was proud of myself, but then again, my story was

967
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 3: tying to just keeping people hoodwinked into this system, right,

968
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 3: So it's it's the way that MLMs survive. They tug

969
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 3: on heart strings, they make you feel like, oh, you know,

970
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:18,200
Speaker 3: I'm a lonely stay at home mom too. Look how

971
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 3: well you're doing. I want to join too. Oh I'm

972
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:23,960
Speaker 3: you know whatever, Like it'll fit whatever ails you, whatever

973
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:26,880
Speaker 3: pain point you have, right, perfects sense totally.

974
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 1: Would you be telling at these conferences like I got

975
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:33,359
Speaker 1: a dui driving my new car that I got from

976
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:36,359
Speaker 1: selling things or did you kind of leave that part out?

977
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:39,319
Speaker 3: So it was kind of a watered down story by

978
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:42,200
Speaker 3: that point, you know, it was like I, you know,

979
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 3: I talked about how I had an alcohol problem, and

980
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:47,479
Speaker 3: like it was like here's what you saw on social media,

981
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:50,279
Speaker 3: and here's what you didn't see. But it was a

982
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 3: very like watered down, pretty story, Like it wasn't all

983
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:56,799
Speaker 3: the nitty gritty details. So so yeah, kind of it

984
00:46:56,840 --> 00:46:59,040
Speaker 3: was like I couldn't really tell everything because of course

985
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:02,400
Speaker 3: it had to be approved the corporate team, and you know,

986
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:04,840
Speaker 3: they don't want it to be too like depressing or real.

987
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I'm not in a twelve step program,

988
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:11,560
Speaker 2: but many of my loved ones are. And aside from

989
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:14,920
Speaker 2: like literally removing the chemical influence in your brain, that

990
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 2: going through those steps and taking accountability seems just like

991
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:21,479
Speaker 2: such a useful thing for people in general. But such

992
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:25,319
Speaker 2: a helpful way to potentially wake up from being like

993
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:28,719
Speaker 2: trapped in a culture where either you're doing something wrong

994
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:30,960
Speaker 2: or people are doing something wrong to you. I imagine

995
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:32,920
Speaker 2: it would be very helpful in that process.

996
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:36,840
Speaker 3: So yeah, for sure. And that's when I really started

997
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:38,799
Speaker 3: to think more about it. Was when so many of

998
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:41,360
Speaker 3: my amends were things I had done in the MLM.

999
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:43,799
Speaker 3: But I still kind of felt like, well, had I

1000
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:46,480
Speaker 3: not been drinking, I wouldn't have done those things, right,

1001
00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:47,360
Speaker 3: I wouldn't have bothered.

1002
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 1: It's not the MLM, it's the alcohol exactly exactly.

1003
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:55,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's both turns out as both. Yeah, well it's

1004
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:58,840
Speaker 2: more one than the other, I think, well, true, true,

1005
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:00,719
Speaker 2: but I mean, yeah, both.

1006
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:04,000
Speaker 1: But the MLM is really yeah, the alcohol was just

1007
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:06,359
Speaker 1: the catalyst.

1008
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:07,160
Speaker 3: Me do the things I was supposed to be doing

1009
00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:07,920
Speaker 3: in the MLM.

1010
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:09,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, right, right, right.

1011
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:10,640
Speaker 4: Right, Oh my god, So.

1012
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:14,279
Speaker 2: Do you How did you kind of get to the

1013
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:16,840
Speaker 2: point where you were like, this is not something I

1014
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:17,840
Speaker 2: want to be a part of anymore.

1015
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I kind of went offline a little bit.

1016
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 3: I decided like, okay, I'm not fully comfortable with this anymore.

1017
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:30,360
Speaker 3: I started taking courses in you know, addiction recovery, and

1018
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:32,880
Speaker 3: you know, I started, I started writing a lot. So

1019
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:35,280
Speaker 3: that was a big part of my recovery process was writing.

1020
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:36,759
Speaker 3: And then all of a sudden, I had this like

1021
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:40,239
Speaker 3: one hundred thousand word you know, stream of consciousness, and

1022
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:43,440
Speaker 3: I thought I want to write a book, and so

1023
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:46,799
Speaker 3: I ended up writing a recovery memoir at the end

1024
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:49,680
Speaker 3: of twenty nineteen. And during that process, I was like,

1025
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:51,640
Speaker 3: this is kind of what I want to go into.

1026
00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:54,279
Speaker 3: I want to go into recovery advocacy. I want to

1027
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:57,359
Speaker 3: go into speaking, and I'm just going to back off

1028
00:48:56,960 --> 00:49:01,759
Speaker 3: of MLMs. So I kind of thought what I would

1029
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:05,000
Speaker 3: do is just you know, stop posting on social media,

1030
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:07,160
Speaker 3: but I would still like collect a paycheck until it

1031
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:10,640
Speaker 3: dried up and however long that that happened. And then

1032
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 3: the pandemic hit, so then a few things happened. So

1033
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:21,239
Speaker 3: I was separated from the commercial cult, right Like we

1034
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:24,319
Speaker 3: could be over zoom and texts and whatever, but you

1035
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:26,600
Speaker 3: couldn't go to conventions, you couldn't go to retention events.

1036
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:29,280
Speaker 3: So there was that separation there that kind of again

1037
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:32,200
Speaker 3: helped me see things more clearly. And then a lot

1038
00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:37,760
Speaker 3: of this misinformation during COVID with reps started to happen,

1039
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:40,080
Speaker 3: So the FTC sent out a bunch of letters to

1040
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:43,040
Speaker 3: reps who were like making false claims saying that their

1041
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:47,239
Speaker 3: products could cure COVID. So ah, yeah, and even more

1042
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:49,879
Speaker 3: gross than that, And this was people I knew who

1043
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:52,280
Speaker 3: were posting like, oh, I'm sorry you've lost your job

1044
00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 3: or you know, lockdowns and you can't work, but that's

1045
00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:58,360
Speaker 3: why I have a plan B. So it was like

1046
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:01,640
Speaker 3: selling the opportunity to people who had like fucking lost

1047
00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:05,799
Speaker 3: their jobs, which was just so awful to me. So

1048
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:09,680
Speaker 3: that was gross. And then there were reps who were

1049
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:14,080
Speaker 3: taking out PPP loans, which you know, the Payment Protection

1050
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:16,520
Speaker 3: Program was for people who like couldn't pay their employees,

1051
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 3: So if you own a restaurant, it's like, we want

1052
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:20,840
Speaker 3: you to still be able to pay your employees. Here's alone.

1053
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:23,960
Speaker 3: Most of them were forgiven. Well, these bitches thought it

1054
00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:27,799
Speaker 3: would be a good idea to take money even though

1055
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 3: MLMs were not approved, like no one from an MLM

1056
00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:32,480
Speaker 3: could take them, but they took them out like in

1057
00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:36,080
Speaker 3: the company name. And I mean this was rampant, and

1058
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:39,239
Speaker 3: I just thought, like I cannot even be associated with

1059
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:42,799
Speaker 3: these people anymore, Like I cannot be associated with this

1060
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:47,080
Speaker 3: network anymore. I you know, started doing a little more research.

1061
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:49,840
Speaker 3: I started listening to podcasts. I listened to the Dream podcast,

1062
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:52,200
Speaker 3: which was kind of the first thing that I was like, oh,

1063
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:54,920
Speaker 3: I'm in a cult. Oh you know, I'm fully in

1064
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:58,560
Speaker 3: a cult. And while all this was going on, I

1065
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:01,960
Speaker 3: was still like the top rank. Wow. So here I

1066
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:05,280
Speaker 3: was not working, not talking about the company, not selling,

1067
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:08,040
Speaker 3: not anything, and yet all these people underneath me were

1068
00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:11,120
Speaker 3: doing all the work and I was still at this

1069
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:13,920
Speaker 3: like top rank, and I'm like, I can't do this anymore.

1070
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:16,959
Speaker 3: And that was enough for me to say, like, I quit.

1071
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:20,359
Speaker 3: And I always have to say this because again I

1072
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:22,600
Speaker 3: have the privilege to be able to do that, because

1073
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:25,080
Speaker 3: I have a spouse who had a job, and not everybody.

1074
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:27,880
Speaker 3: Once you're in that deep, it is very hard to

1075
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:30,759
Speaker 3: leave if you don't have anywhere else to go. Of course,

1076
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:34,560
Speaker 3: so like I don't fault anyone who stays, because.

1077
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:36,520
Speaker 1: So when you say you're in the top rank, does

1078
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:38,440
Speaker 1: I mean you're getting a big check every month?

1079
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:41,840
Speaker 3: So that's the other funny thing is not necessarily so

1080
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:44,120
Speaker 3: my check was drying off month by month by month.

1081
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:48,680
Speaker 3: But because I had this structure in place of people

1082
00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:52,560
Speaker 3: whose paychecks were also drying up. It looked like I

1083
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:55,920
Speaker 3: was still again this super diamond extra Elite princess or

1084
00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:58,760
Speaker 3: whatever the title was. I was still the top rank.

1085
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:01,720
Speaker 3: But that didn't mean I was making all that much money.

1086
00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:04,520
Speaker 4: Right, what's the most money you made at it?

1087
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:07,200
Speaker 3: So the most I made in one month was forty

1088
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:10,799
Speaker 3: thousand dollars. Okay, okay, that was the only month I

1089
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 3: made that much, But yeah, it was not it was

1090
00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:17,280
Speaker 3: a lot. However, the amount I was spending.

1091
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:17,960
Speaker 4: Was also a lot.

1092
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:20,960
Speaker 3: There's a lot of so that's again before taxes, so

1093
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:23,600
Speaker 3: cut that in half. And then the amount you're spending

1094
00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:27,640
Speaker 3: on these trips and gifts for your team, because again Coachable,

1095
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:30,400
Speaker 3: you know your upline buy stuff for you, you got to

1096
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:34,600
Speaker 3: buy stuff for them. Yeah, there was a lot of expenses.

1097
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:38,480
Speaker 2: I mean, I just think it's great that you cared

1098
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:42,560
Speaker 2: enough to even be thinking about those implications and thinking

1099
00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:45,759
Speaker 2: about the morality of it all when you really weren't

1100
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:48,920
Speaker 2: even active in it anymore. Like, I think it's admirable.

1101
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:52,440
Speaker 3: Well, and I think because you bring in friends and family,

1102
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:54,799
Speaker 3: that's the hard part, and I think that kept me

1103
00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:58,719
Speaker 3: stuck in longer than I would have been because I

1104
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:01,319
Speaker 3: really thought, like how can I leave and leave these

1105
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:03,600
Speaker 3: people who I brought in and sold this dream to,

1106
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:06,400
Speaker 3: you know, like how can I not stick it out

1107
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:08,839
Speaker 3: with them? And you know, I'll pay for stuff for them,

1108
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:11,439
Speaker 3: like I'll bring them on trips and I'll spoil them.

1109
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:14,080
Speaker 3: I thought I was doing like a good thing when

1110
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:16,239
Speaker 3: it was just kind of keeping them stuck in longer too.

1111
00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:19,600
Speaker 3: But that's the hard part. Again, you're targeting your friends

1112
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:20,120
Speaker 3: and family.

1113
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:22,600
Speaker 2: So what did you tell them when you decided to leave?

1114
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:25,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I was very upfront, Like as I was

1115
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:28,480
Speaker 3: waking up and realizing that I didn't like this anymore,

1116
00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:31,200
Speaker 3: you know, I said to like my customers, you know,

1117
00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:33,719
Speaker 3: I'm not actively selling anymore. If you're interested, here's my

1118
00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:37,120
Speaker 3: uplines info, you know, and same with my team, Like,

1119
00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:40,000
Speaker 3: you know, this is why I thought this was a

1120
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:42,880
Speaker 3: good thing. I'm now realizing that it's not what I

1121
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:47,120
Speaker 3: signed up for. And whatever you want to do, like,

1122
00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:49,279
Speaker 3: I love you no matter what. You know, I really

1123
00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:51,319
Speaker 3: made it like it's your decision what you want to do,

1124
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:54,319
Speaker 3: but I'm making the decision that you know, I'm I'm

1125
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:56,520
Speaker 3: not going to be involved in this anymore. I really

1126
00:53:56,600 --> 00:53:58,879
Speaker 3: had to figure out a place where like I ended

1127
00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:02,200
Speaker 3: and other people began, because yes, I did pressure them

1128
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 3: and I did influence people to join, but at the

1129
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:07,120
Speaker 3: end of the day, they also made those decisions too,

1130
00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:10,080
Speaker 3: and so at some point I had to like relinquish

1131
00:54:10,120 --> 00:54:13,320
Speaker 3: that worry that I needed to stick it out with them.

1132
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:16,600
Speaker 3: But I was very I was very clear about how

1133
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:18,360
Speaker 3: I felt about it. So when I did finally, like

1134
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:22,040
Speaker 3: full on quit, nobody was surprised. They kind of knew

1135
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:22,560
Speaker 3: it was coming.

1136
00:54:22,719 --> 00:54:26,280
Speaker 1: Did you face me backlash where they're like Reddit pages

1137
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:29,600
Speaker 1: hating on you and people very angry.

1138
00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:33,040
Speaker 3: So there wasn't a lot of backlash when I quit. Quit,

1139
00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:35,919
Speaker 3: there was definitely people who like tried to keep me in,

1140
00:54:36,239 --> 00:54:37,840
Speaker 3: and I got a lot of texts from people in

1141
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:40,080
Speaker 3: my upline like, you know, you only fail if you quit.

1142
00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:42,600
Speaker 3: Don't quit now, don't quit. You know, nobody wanted me

1143
00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:45,239
Speaker 3: to leave because then that doesn't look good, right, That

1144
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:47,360
Speaker 3: doesn't look good to other people and just for the

1145
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:50,319
Speaker 3: company in general. But when I left, there wasn't a

1146
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:52,120
Speaker 3: ton of backlash. It was more just people kind of

1147
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:55,320
Speaker 3: went quiet. When I announced that I was writing a book.

1148
00:54:56,480 --> 00:55:01,080
Speaker 3: Oh Man then it was like, yeah, people came out

1149
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:03,600
Speaker 3: of the woodwork just like pissed off.

1150
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:06,600
Speaker 2: But you and I heard it, have never named the MLM.

1151
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:09,280
Speaker 2: You call it Rejuvenate, which is not the name. Why

1152
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:10,960
Speaker 2: did you make that choice?

1153
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:12,840
Speaker 3: So you know, I kind of went back and forth

1154
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:15,239
Speaker 3: on this and talking to my publisher, and you know,

1155
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:18,719
Speaker 3: obviously you don't have an extensive legal read and all

1156
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:21,360
Speaker 3: of that. You know, I was I fully had the

1157
00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:24,440
Speaker 3: right to name them because again it's my experience, which

1158
00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:27,879
Speaker 3: is my right to tell my opinion. But also all

1159
00:55:27,920 --> 00:55:29,840
Speaker 3: of the research in the book, which there's a lot,

1160
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:34,399
Speaker 3: is all publicly available information. It's anything that anyone could

1161
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:36,960
Speaker 3: go out and research. So there's no reason I couldn't

1162
00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:40,839
Speaker 3: have named him. The reason I didn't is because I

1163
00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:43,160
Speaker 3: didn't want people to use the excuse like, oh, it's

1164
00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:47,040
Speaker 3: just them, it's just that one company, because after I researched,

1165
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:49,759
Speaker 3: they're all the same. They are all the same, they

1166
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:52,040
Speaker 3: all have the same failure rate, they all exploit the

1167
00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:57,239
Speaker 3: same vulnerabilities in people. So by having a pseudonym, it

1168
00:55:57,280 --> 00:56:00,759
Speaker 3: was more about making it a global MM book as

1169
00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:03,440
Speaker 3: opposed to this company specific book, because if people want

1170
00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:06,840
Speaker 3: to know which company is it's not hard to google. Yeah.

1171
00:56:06,920 --> 00:56:09,200
Speaker 3: In fact, if you look, if you go to Google

1172
00:56:09,239 --> 00:56:13,240
Speaker 3: and say which MLM, the first suggestion is was Emily

1173
00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:16,440
Speaker 3: Lynn Paulsen in Yeah, so apparently a lot of people

1174
00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:16,880
Speaker 3: google that.

1175
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:20,759
Speaker 2: I discovered it really quickly. But I think that's a

1176
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:24,719
Speaker 2: really interesting choice, and I like, a really yeah, I

1177
00:56:24,719 --> 00:56:27,520
Speaker 2: think that's useful because so much of the time these

1178
00:56:27,560 --> 00:56:30,640
Speaker 2: sort of exposs seem like they are just about this

1179
00:56:30,760 --> 00:56:34,360
Speaker 2: one bad apple, when really there's a systemic problem that's happening.

1180
00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:38,800
Speaker 1: Until we talked to Robert Fitzpatrick, I had no idea.

1181
00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:41,719
Speaker 1: I thought, like, fifty percent of people made money, oh

1182
00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:42,600
Speaker 1: off of MLMs.

1183
00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:43,719
Speaker 4: I really did.

1184
00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:46,960
Speaker 1: I did not know that everyone is losing money and

1185
00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:48,280
Speaker 1: as except.

1186
00:56:48,080 --> 00:56:49,200
Speaker 4: The people at the very top.

1187
00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:53,960
Speaker 1: Like I wasn't going to join one, but I thought, well,

1188
00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:57,040
Speaker 1: surely some of these people are making money, and so

1189
00:56:57,160 --> 00:57:00,560
Speaker 1: I wasn't that's really cool that you can it so

1190
00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:04,839
Speaker 1: for everyone to understand that their own personal MLM is.

1191
00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:06,200
Speaker 4: Probably not good.

1192
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:10,319
Speaker 1: Do you still face people who are brainwashed by it

1193
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:14,280
Speaker 1: coming after you and like not being able to listen

1194
00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:15,080
Speaker 1: to the reasoning.

1195
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:20,400
Speaker 3: So I will say that the most critical feedback are

1196
00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:22,960
Speaker 3: from people who have not and will not read it.

1197
00:57:23,480 --> 00:57:25,280
Speaker 3: Just the fact that it's out there. They're like, oh,

1198
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:27,960
Speaker 3: you're being a hater against women and you're not supporting women.

1199
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:29,400
Speaker 3: It's like, you're not going to read what's in it.

1200
00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:31,600
Speaker 3: If you read it, I'll talk to you all day, right,

1201
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:34,720
Speaker 3: But you know, so that's that's first of all. And

1202
00:57:34,760 --> 00:57:36,480
Speaker 3: I just don't even listen to that because if you're

1203
00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:38,960
Speaker 3: not going to you know, that's critical information that you're avoiding.

1204
00:57:39,160 --> 00:57:39,320
Speaker 4: Right.

1205
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:43,680
Speaker 3: But I will say that I know several MLMs put

1206
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:47,760
Speaker 3: out statements, including the one I was in, saying basically, hey,

1207
00:57:47,800 --> 00:57:49,760
Speaker 3: we know there's someone out there who wrote a book

1208
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:53,560
Speaker 3: about the MLM industry. Please don't engage, Please don't comment,

1209
00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:57,520
Speaker 3: please don't you know, avoid it again, silo it over

1210
00:57:57,560 --> 00:58:02,120
Speaker 3: here in this information yep. So I was honestly surprised

1211
00:58:02,160 --> 00:58:04,560
Speaker 3: when the book came out that there wasn't more backlash.

1212
00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:07,840
Speaker 3: There's been shockingly little. But I think that's why, because

1213
00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:10,800
Speaker 3: I think that they were told not to. I do

1214
00:58:10,840 --> 00:58:14,160
Speaker 3: get comments here and there, but again from people who

1215
00:58:14,160 --> 00:58:17,640
Speaker 3: haven't read it or people who again just aren't willing

1216
00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:20,280
Speaker 3: to look. You know. One lady the other day was like, oh, well,

1217
00:58:20,320 --> 00:58:23,720
Speaker 3: I'm in Mary kay, and we have you know, four

1218
00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:27,080
Speaker 3: hundred car earners or whatever. And I'm like, yeah, you

1219
00:58:27,200 --> 00:58:30,200
Speaker 3: have four million reps too, Like do the math.

1220
00:58:30,640 --> 00:58:31,000
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1221
00:58:31,040 --> 00:58:32,960
Speaker 3: So I think that's why probably you thought, Oh, I

1222
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:34,680
Speaker 3: thought lots of people made money, because that's what you

1223
00:58:34,720 --> 00:58:36,880
Speaker 3: see on social media. That sounds like a lot. It

1224
00:58:36,920 --> 00:58:38,960
Speaker 3: looks like a lot. But when you look at how

1225
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:44,000
Speaker 3: many people don't, I mean, it's shockingly few people.

1226
00:58:44,520 --> 00:58:51,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll go. I mean, you know, clearly stay at

1227
00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:56,720
Speaker 2: home moms are a main target for MLMs. Do you

1228
00:58:57,520 --> 00:59:00,920
Speaker 2: have any specific thoughts on like, you know, because everybody

1229
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:04,400
Speaker 2: needs purpose and meaning and identity, and I think especially

1230
00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:08,120
Speaker 2: when you're kind of done having kids, like everybody needs

1231
00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:11,480
Speaker 2: something else to do. Like do you have any specific

1232
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:14,680
Speaker 2: tips or thoughts or ideas on what that could be?

1233
00:59:15,680 --> 00:59:15,960
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1234
00:59:16,040 --> 00:59:17,960
Speaker 3: I think the important thing is to ask, you know,

1235
00:59:18,040 --> 00:59:19,040
Speaker 3: what am I looking for?

1236
00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:19,560
Speaker 4: Right?

1237
00:59:19,640 --> 00:59:22,120
Speaker 3: So when I went to that wine bar that night

1238
00:59:22,200 --> 00:59:24,920
Speaker 3: to meet that friend, like, I was really looking for connection,

1239
00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:28,640
Speaker 3: and like there are ways to get that without joining

1240
00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:31,800
Speaker 3: an MLM. And so if you're looking for extra money,

1241
00:59:32,600 --> 00:59:34,320
Speaker 3: I think the good thing about the pandemic is like

1242
00:59:34,360 --> 00:59:38,800
Speaker 3: there's a lot more remote opportunities. Now I think just

1243
00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:41,200
Speaker 3: looking outside of the boxes, like are you you know,

1244
00:59:41,680 --> 00:59:44,160
Speaker 3: can you sell something on Etsy? Like do you have

1245
00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:46,600
Speaker 3: like a designer bag you can sell? Like, there's a

1246
00:59:46,640 --> 00:59:49,800
Speaker 3: lot of ways when you're creative to earn a few

1247
00:59:49,840 --> 00:59:55,480
Speaker 3: dollars that don't require buying a thousand dollars business kit. Right, So,

1248
00:59:55,680 --> 00:59:58,440
Speaker 3: just like taking a step back and asking myself what

1249
00:59:58,480 --> 01:00:00,520
Speaker 3: am I really looking for here? You know? Am I

1250
01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:03,040
Speaker 3: looking for an outlet? Is there a hobby you want

1251
01:00:03,040 --> 01:00:04,840
Speaker 3: to pick up? You know, go to meetup dot com

1252
01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:07,280
Speaker 3: and join a pickleball group or something like that that

1253
01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:10,280
Speaker 3: you know, there's a way, there's a way to fill

1254
01:00:10,320 --> 01:00:12,960
Speaker 3: the need that you're looking for that does not require

1255
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:17,320
Speaker 3: paying a boss babe or joining a cult, right it does.

1256
01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:20,000
Speaker 1: I mean there is there must be some morning period

1257
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:22,040
Speaker 1: for that dopamine.

1258
01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:23,880
Speaker 4: Uh what's the word?

1259
01:00:24,040 --> 01:00:26,480
Speaker 1: Like coming off of all that dopamine, you know, you

1260
01:00:26,520 --> 01:00:31,160
Speaker 1: get to post online like my car, my life and

1261
01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:34,600
Speaker 1: get a lot of attention. Like was that kind of

1262
01:00:34,640 --> 01:00:36,120
Speaker 1: hard to go through?

1263
01:00:36,760 --> 01:00:37,040
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1264
01:00:37,120 --> 01:00:40,600
Speaker 3: I mean you definitely, my life got really quiet. Yeah,

1265
01:00:41,440 --> 01:00:43,520
Speaker 3: but it was a good thing. And I think that's

1266
01:00:43,560 --> 01:00:46,680
Speaker 3: what again, the pandemic facilitated is once I stepped away

1267
01:00:46,680 --> 01:00:50,360
Speaker 3: from all that stuff, I was like, oh, that's really fake,

1268
01:00:50,640 --> 01:00:52,840
Speaker 3: and like walking across the stage in front of all

1269
01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:55,480
Speaker 3: these people and it's these same women all the time,

1270
01:00:55,560 --> 01:00:58,200
Speaker 3: like all of this is really fake, Like this isn't

1271
01:00:58,240 --> 01:01:02,000
Speaker 3: real life. It kind of gave me the ability to

1272
01:01:02,040 --> 01:01:03,720
Speaker 3: slow down and say, Okay, why did I do this

1273
01:01:03,760 --> 01:01:05,480
Speaker 3: in the first place? Because I wanted more money in

1274
01:01:05,520 --> 01:01:08,000
Speaker 3: time with my family, and all these things are taking

1275
01:01:08,040 --> 01:01:10,200
Speaker 3: away from my family and making me spend more money.

1276
01:01:10,200 --> 01:01:15,040
Speaker 3: And you know, so, I think slowing down was a

1277
01:01:15,080 --> 01:01:16,800
Speaker 3: really good thing for me.

1278
01:01:17,400 --> 01:01:20,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, we should do a whole episode on alternatives to

1279
01:01:21,200 --> 01:01:25,000
Speaker 2: cults and MLMs things, ways you can find community that

1280
01:01:25,040 --> 01:01:28,760
Speaker 2: are like healthy. I do think, oh god, now I

1281
01:01:28,760 --> 01:01:30,360
Speaker 2: want to say group me. It's not group me. What

1282
01:01:30,400 --> 01:01:30,960
Speaker 2: did you just say?

1283
01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:31,440
Speaker 3: Meeting up?

1284
01:01:31,920 --> 01:01:34,760
Speaker 2: I do think meetup is actually amazing. I've like done

1285
01:01:34,880 --> 01:01:38,040
Speaker 2: the most random meetups with people just because I'm curious

1286
01:01:38,080 --> 01:01:40,760
Speaker 2: about different communities. And I feel like I wish stuff

1287
01:01:40,800 --> 01:01:44,360
Speaker 2: like that was more prevalent and popular because there are

1288
01:01:44,520 --> 01:01:48,880
Speaker 2: so many lonely people, not just moms, but just people

1289
01:01:48,880 --> 01:01:49,320
Speaker 2: in general.

1290
01:01:49,360 --> 01:01:49,640
Speaker 4: Men.

1291
01:01:49,760 --> 01:01:50,760
Speaker 2: You you going on it?

1292
01:01:50,960 --> 01:01:51,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, we all go on.

1293
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:52,000
Speaker 1: Well.

1294
01:01:52,480 --> 01:01:54,320
Speaker 2: I feel like so many men I know too, have

1295
01:01:54,440 --> 01:01:58,720
Speaker 2: really struggled to like find friends, Like I just I

1296
01:01:58,760 --> 01:02:00,840
Speaker 2: wish there was more of a could sure around, like

1297
01:02:01,200 --> 01:02:05,040
Speaker 2: it being okay to be seeking community so that we

1298
01:02:05,080 --> 01:02:07,560
Speaker 2: can find them and find it in healthy places.

1299
01:02:08,080 --> 01:02:12,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I honestly think it's getting more like people

1300
01:02:12,400 --> 01:02:14,440
Speaker 3: are asking for what they want. I even see, you know,

1301
01:02:14,480 --> 01:02:17,280
Speaker 3: I'm on Facebook because I'm like a geriatric millennial or

1302
01:02:17,840 --> 01:02:19,439
Speaker 3: I don't know what I am. I don't know, I'm

1303
01:02:19,440 --> 01:02:22,080
Speaker 3: like in between, but I I'm still on Facebook, and

1304
01:02:22,120 --> 01:02:24,640
Speaker 3: so I'll see like my local Facebook groups are like, hey,

1305
01:02:24,680 --> 01:02:26,600
Speaker 3: I'm new here, I don't have any friends who wants

1306
01:02:26,640 --> 01:02:29,000
Speaker 3: to meet up. Like, people are getting way more bold

1307
01:02:29,040 --> 01:02:32,240
Speaker 3: about saying like I need a friend, And I think

1308
01:02:32,240 --> 01:02:34,960
Speaker 3: that's so healthy to admit we need that.

1309
01:02:35,520 --> 01:02:36,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally.

1310
01:02:36,560 --> 01:02:39,360
Speaker 1: I think the pandemic brought a lot of people out

1311
01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:42,560
Speaker 1: of cults, but it also took a few in.

1312
01:02:42,840 --> 01:02:44,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, a little bit of both.

1313
01:02:45,040 --> 01:02:47,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, but a lot of people that I know were

1314
01:02:47,920 --> 01:02:51,240
Speaker 1: able to get out of really high control groups because

1315
01:02:51,280 --> 01:02:53,200
Speaker 1: they weren't able to meet in person.

1316
01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:56,240
Speaker 3: For Yeah, I saw the same thing. I saw people

1317
01:02:56,240 --> 01:02:59,720
Speaker 3: coming out and then also getting drawn in through the

1318
01:02:59,800 --> 01:03:03,240
Speaker 3: end l like through that QAnon pipeline and the you know,

1319
01:03:03,280 --> 01:03:06,919
Speaker 3: anti vax pipeline and stuff like because their upline told

1320
01:03:06,960 --> 01:03:08,640
Speaker 3: them to and that's kind of what.

1321
01:03:08,640 --> 01:03:10,640
Speaker 4: Has to me. See, like products could cure it.

1322
01:03:10,920 --> 01:03:16,800
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's so scary. Do you have any final

1323
01:03:17,040 --> 01:03:20,280
Speaker 2: words or thoughts for someone who's been in an MLM

1324
01:03:20,520 --> 01:03:22,000
Speaker 2: or is thinking about joining one.

1325
01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:25,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think, Well you're thinking of joining one? Oh

1326
01:03:25,400 --> 01:03:31,000
Speaker 3: my god, don't please read my book. Yeah, don't do it,

1327
01:03:31,520 --> 01:03:34,040
Speaker 3: but I think it. You know, if you're if you're

1328
01:03:34,040 --> 01:03:35,720
Speaker 3: like listening to this and you're in an MLM and

1329
01:03:35,760 --> 01:03:38,800
Speaker 3: you're you love it or whatever, Like I'm not telling

1330
01:03:38,840 --> 01:03:41,840
Speaker 3: you you need to go quit, but just be more

1331
01:03:41,880 --> 01:03:45,680
Speaker 3: aware of a where you're getting your information from and

1332
01:03:45,760 --> 01:03:47,920
Speaker 3: who is benefiting from the things you say and do,

1333
01:03:49,360 --> 01:03:54,520
Speaker 3: and do a profit loss statement. Doing those things will

1334
01:03:55,200 --> 01:03:57,160
Speaker 3: yeah really help you see like, Okay, this is actually

1335
01:03:57,200 --> 01:03:59,920
Speaker 3: the amount of money I've I'm losing or you know,

1336
01:04:00,120 --> 01:04:03,640
Speaker 3: not making or whatever, And gosh, do I really believe

1337
01:04:03,680 --> 01:04:06,120
Speaker 3: these things I'm saying. I think just giving yourself like

1338
01:04:06,160 --> 01:04:10,320
Speaker 3: that small sliver of possibility that you're not one hundred

1339
01:04:10,320 --> 01:04:13,080
Speaker 3: percent right about something can do everybody good.

1340
01:04:14,040 --> 01:04:19,000
Speaker 2: Amen, love it. Preach that a sliver of uncertainty is

1341
01:04:19,040 --> 01:04:22,919
Speaker 2: something we all need. Wonderful. Well, where can people find

1342
01:04:22,920 --> 01:04:24,120
Speaker 2: your book and where can they find you?

1343
01:04:24,440 --> 01:04:27,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you can find the book, hey, hon oh

1344
01:04:27,880 --> 01:04:32,520
Speaker 3: right here anywhere books are sold. Obviously support your local

1345
01:04:32,520 --> 01:04:34,800
Speaker 3: book story. I always suggest that, but it's in all

1346
01:04:34,800 --> 01:04:37,640
Speaker 3: the big box places too, And then I'm Emily Lyn

1347
01:04:38,040 --> 01:04:39,640
Speaker 3: Paulson on all platforms.

1348
01:04:40,280 --> 01:04:42,720
Speaker 2: Awesome, Well, thank you so much for joining us and

1349
01:04:42,760 --> 01:04:43,560
Speaker 2: sharing your story.

1350
01:04:43,720 --> 01:04:44,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks for having me.

1351
01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:49,400
Speaker 2: Alrighty ooo, all right, Megan, it's time for the question

1352
01:04:49,480 --> 01:04:53,600
Speaker 2: of the day. This one is would you be Emily's

1353
01:04:53,720 --> 01:04:56,400
Speaker 2: down line? Absolutely tell me why.

1354
01:04:56,720 --> 01:05:00,000
Speaker 1: I just liked her a lot, like I've I've felt

1355
01:05:00,440 --> 01:05:01,160
Speaker 1: safe with her.

1356
01:05:01,200 --> 01:05:03,360
Speaker 4: I felt like she's super bubbly.

1357
01:05:03,480 --> 01:05:06,880
Speaker 1: There's something I admire about her and I want to

1358
01:05:06,920 --> 01:05:09,840
Speaker 1: be more like her. She feels responsible.

1359
01:05:09,320 --> 01:05:13,680
Speaker 2: And yeah, she's very aspirational. I could see being like

1360
01:05:14,000 --> 01:05:16,320
Speaker 2: I want to be like her. She's doing this. I

1361
01:05:16,320 --> 01:05:17,720
Speaker 2: can be like her if I do this.

1362
01:05:18,320 --> 01:05:19,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's how they get you.

1363
01:05:19,880 --> 01:05:20,640
Speaker 4: That's how they get you.

1364
01:05:20,760 --> 01:05:24,320
Speaker 1: So I mean props to her for for being a

1365
01:05:24,360 --> 01:05:27,160
Speaker 1: person who was successful at it and being like this

1366
01:05:27,360 --> 01:05:28,000
Speaker 1: is why.

1367
01:05:28,440 --> 01:05:31,960
Speaker 2: And acknowledging that it was like because of Yah.

1368
01:05:32,440 --> 01:05:35,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, she's super dope, so I would be in her

1369
01:05:35,960 --> 01:05:39,600
Speaker 1: down line, but fortunately she called herself out, so I

1370
01:05:39,600 --> 01:05:41,960
Speaker 1: don't have to be because I would be owning a

1371
01:05:42,080 --> 01:05:43,680
Speaker 1: lot of weird products right now.

1372
01:05:44,080 --> 01:05:45,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know you would.

1373
01:05:47,240 --> 01:05:49,080
Speaker 4: Let's be honest, I already.

1374
01:05:53,320 --> 01:05:56,400
Speaker 2: That's great, that sounds great that it's not happening.

1375
01:05:56,480 --> 01:05:59,840
Speaker 1: So all right, thank you for another week here with

1376
01:06:00,240 --> 01:06:02,480
Speaker 1: We can't wait to see you again next time, and

1377
01:06:02,680 --> 01:06:06,840
Speaker 1: as always, remember to follow your gut, watch out for

1378
01:06:06,960 --> 01:06:12,440
Speaker 1: red flats, and never ever trust me hie.

1379
01:06:15,440 --> 01:06:18,160
Speaker 2: Trust Me is produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and

1380
01:06:18,200 --> 01:06:19,600
Speaker 2: Steve Delemator.

1381
01:06:19,160 --> 01:06:21,760
Speaker 1: With special thanks to Stacy Para and our theme song

1382
01:06:21,840 --> 01:06:24,360
Speaker 1: was composed by Holly amber Church. You can find us

1383
01:06:24,400 --> 01:06:27,880
Speaker 1: on Instagram at trust Me Podcast, Twitter at trust Me

1384
01:06:28,040 --> 01:06:31,800
Speaker 1: Cult Pod, or on TikTok at trust Me Cult Podcast.

1385
01:06:31,960 --> 01:06:35,360
Speaker 2: I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

1386
01:06:35,040 --> 01:06:38,640
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham

1387
01:06:38,800 --> 01:06:39,840
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

1388
01:06:40,000 --> 01:06:42,320
Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word