WEBVTT - Engaging with the Political Opposition—A Conversation with Ami Horowitz (Part 1) 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:02.720 Broadcasting from the Hip Hop Weekly Studios. I'd like to 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:05.200 welcome you to another episode of Civic Cipher, where our 0:00:05.200 --> 0:00:08.480 mission is to foster allyship, empathy and understanding. 0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:10.000 I am your host, ramses Ja. 0:00:10.400 --> 0:00:12.719 Big shout out to my man q Ward who is 0:00:13.440 --> 0:00:16.360 out of town making history with the history makers. But 0:00:16.480 --> 0:00:20.120 have no fear, because this week we got something special 0:00:20.239 --> 0:00:22.960 in store for you. Longtime friend of the show, Amy 0:00:22.960 --> 0:00:26.120 Horowitz joins us. And for those that don't know, Amy 0:00:26.400 --> 0:00:30.280 is an American conservative documentary filmmaker and activist. He is 0:00:30.320 --> 0:00:32.400 a writer, producer, and director of Amy on the Loose, 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:35.280 a satirical short film series. He's also the host of 0:00:35.320 --> 0:00:37.880 the recent documentary The Art of War, a look into 0:00:37.920 --> 0:00:42.319 the practices of the IDF. And I know that if 0:00:42.360 --> 0:00:47.840 your ears perked up because Amy is a conservative activist, 0:00:48.720 --> 0:00:52.600 have no fear. That is intentional. Amy is a dear 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:54.680 friend of mine and a dear friend of the show. 0:00:54.960 --> 0:01:00.960 And while we don't agree on much politically speaking, we 0:01:01.120 --> 0:01:06.440 certainly have spirited conversations, and we feel, as often as 0:01:06.440 --> 0:01:09.960 we're able to have these conversations that you might find. 0:01:09.760 --> 0:01:11.120 Some meaning in the exchange. 0:01:11.360 --> 0:01:15.440 Today we're specifically going to focus on sort of how 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:19.200 to have conversations with people that disagree with you in 0:01:19.280 --> 0:01:23.679 the spirit of finding some common ground and moving forward 0:01:23.720 --> 0:01:28.600 together as human beings. And so welcome back to the show, Army. 0:01:28.600 --> 0:01:30.920 I appreciate you taking the time to hang out with 0:01:31.000 --> 0:01:31.360 us again. 0:01:32.040 --> 0:01:33.880 Man, it's always a pleasure. It's an honor to always 0:01:33.920 --> 0:01:36.760 be with you. And yet, look, you and I have 0:01:36.920 --> 0:01:40.160 these spirit debates on air, and we also have them 0:01:40.319 --> 0:01:41.480 personally over dinner. 0:01:41.640 --> 0:01:44.280 Indeed, indeed, and no, this is a. 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:48.440 Really important topic because we're living in such a fracture society, 0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:51.960 and I think that's difficult for both sides. Frankly, it's 0:01:52.040 --> 0:01:54.200 not just one side being closed mind to the other 0:01:54.240 --> 0:01:56.320 side of being open. I know each side wants to 0:01:56.360 --> 0:01:58.320 pretend that is you know, my friends that I go, 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:01.280 we're open, and the other side and vice versa, and 0:02:01.280 --> 0:02:03.920 it's not sure. It's very difficult for all size to 0:02:03.960 --> 0:02:06.080 have real conversations about real import issues. 0:02:06.440 --> 0:02:08.400 Well, that's exactly what we're going to do today. But 0:02:08.440 --> 0:02:11.519 before we get there, it is time for some ebony excellence. 0:02:11.760 --> 0:02:15.480 So today's ebony excellence. We're shouting out the ancestors. So 0:02:15.600 --> 0:02:18.960 this comes from Black Enterprise, the Notaway Plantation, a monument 0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:21.400 is Southern grandeur built on the backs of enslaved people, 0:02:21.440 --> 0:02:24.000 has been destroyed by a fire that rage for nearly 0:02:24.040 --> 0:02:27.720 forty hours beginning late May fifteenth. The infernal gutted the 0:02:27.720 --> 0:02:30.560 one hundred and sixty year old estate turned resort, once 0:02:30.600 --> 0:02:33.200 the largest Antebellum mansion remaining in the South. I know 0:02:33.200 --> 0:02:34.640 a lot of folks already know about this story, but 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:35.760 we're just getting to it. 0:02:35.880 --> 0:02:36.640 So bear with me. 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:39.760 Staff at the rename Notaway Resort No to smoke in 0:02:39.800 --> 0:02:41.920 the South wing. On the night of May fourteenth, the 0:02:41.919 --> 0:02:44.560 fire quickly spread through the sixty four room fifty three 0:02:44.600 --> 0:02:47.680 thousand square foot property, including a three story rotunda. It 0:02:47.720 --> 0:02:50.520 had been listed on the National Register of Historic Places 0:02:50.560 --> 0:02:54.119 since nineteen eighty. Despite efforts for multiple departments, the structure 0:02:54.400 --> 0:02:59.680 was lost. While the Yberville Parish government grieves the destruction 0:02:59.720 --> 0:03:04.080 of what calls an economic cornerstone, other sea poetic justice, 0:03:04.120 --> 0:03:07.480 and the ashes of the plantation that never meaningfully confronted 0:03:07.520 --> 0:03:09.840 its legacy of slavery. Built in eighteen fifty nine by 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:15.160 sugar magnate John Hampden Sorry John Hampden Randolph, the estate 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:17.320 was powered by the forced labor of more than one 0:03:17.400 --> 0:03:19.919 hundred and fifty enslaved people of fact, often glossed over 0:03:20.040 --> 0:03:23.880 in tourist bouchures. While the Yberville Parish government bemoans the 0:03:23.919 --> 0:03:25.960 loss as a blow to the local economy and a 0:03:25.960 --> 0:03:29.280 piece of piece of national significance, others aren't mourning. For 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:32.119 many of the destruction feels less like a tragedy more 0:03:32.200 --> 0:03:34.800 like a reason to celebrate. And this from the Atlanta 0:03:34.840 --> 0:03:37.920 Black Star. A fallen tree during a storm destroyed the 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:41.400 Fort Branch Confederate Museum in North Carolina, leaving the building 0:03:41.440 --> 0:03:43.920 a total loss. The museum was immediately closed due to 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:47.920 insufficient insurance to cover rebuilding costs. While the historical society 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:51.880 seeks donation, social media has had other reactions, many noting 0:03:51.880 --> 0:03:56.360 the destruction alongside other recent events involving Confederate landmarks, karma, 0:03:56.800 --> 0:04:01.040 or ancestral justice. So shout out to the sisters looking 0:04:01.080 --> 0:04:07.000 at one time. Okay, Amy, Before we get into this, 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:10.280 I want to make sure that the part of this 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:12.600 conversation that I want our listeners to take away from 0:04:12.640 --> 0:04:16.080 it is well established. So I will go first in 0:04:16.200 --> 0:04:23.520 saying that Amy is a person that first came to 0:04:23.680 --> 0:04:28.840 my attention through social media. And this was years ago now, 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:34.240 but you know, he is a media personality, and he's 0:04:34.240 --> 0:04:38.200 a filmmaker, he's a journalist, and you know, your algorithm 0:04:38.240 --> 0:04:40.760 serves up the things that you're into, and as a 0:04:40.800 --> 0:04:45.000 journalist and as a media personality, Ammy was one such individual. 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:48.000 He ended up reaching out and we said, you know, 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:52.720 let's have a conversation on the radio. And in short order, 0:04:54.960 --> 0:04:56.560 I think that we both I don't want to speak 0:04:56.600 --> 0:04:58.080 for you, but I think that we both made a 0:04:58.120 --> 0:05:02.440 decision that we are going to be bread earlier than 0:05:02.440 --> 0:05:04.720 we do with perhaps most people. Certainly, I'll say that 0:05:04.760 --> 0:05:08.600 for myself. And I'm going to love this man right here, 0:05:09.440 --> 0:05:12.360 Amy Horowitz, no matter what, no matter what he says 0:05:12.360 --> 0:05:14.240 out of his mouth that infuriates me to no end, 0:05:16.200 --> 0:05:19.640 I'm going to love him. And in doing that, I 0:05:19.800 --> 0:05:23.600 have learned that this is a beautiful human being. And 0:05:24.760 --> 0:05:28.720 a lot of the things, a lot of the anguish 0:05:28.760 --> 0:05:31.279 and a lot of the misunderstandings that I associate with 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:34.360 people on the right, Amy is a living testament. 0:05:34.640 --> 0:05:36.680 To the fact that I can't paint with too broad 0:05:36.680 --> 0:05:37.880 a stroke. Right. 0:05:38.360 --> 0:05:41.480 So, are there people who are racist? Are there people 0:05:41.480 --> 0:05:45.400 who are calloused? Are there people who are unkind, mean 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:48.720 spirited on the right, Absolutely, But I can't pat when 0:05:48.760 --> 0:05:50.560 too broad of a stroke, Nor can I say that 0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:54.480 the ideology in and of itself is only for people 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:57.040 who fit those descriptions, because I don't associate any of 0:05:57.080 --> 0:05:59.080 those things with Amy. I believe Amy is a man 0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:01.800 who was put on this planet to love people, and 0:06:02.400 --> 0:06:05.320 the filter through which he views the world is a 0:06:05.320 --> 0:06:09.200 conservative filter, which is fundamentally different from the filter through 0:06:09.240 --> 0:06:11.120 which I view the world. And I wanted to say that, 0:06:11.640 --> 0:06:15.280 and I also want to get your response to that. 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:20.039 But right on the heels of that, I definitely want 0:06:20.040 --> 0:06:22.720 you to talk about your recent film because you're here 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:24.360 on the show, you're promoting your film, and I want 0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:26.240 to make sure you have the grounds to do so. 0:06:26.240 --> 0:06:29.800 So please, Yeah, look. 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:32.880 That First of all, it was a lovely introduction, maybe 0:06:32.880 --> 0:06:35.560 one of the nicest introductions I have ever had, that 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:39.480 written by my mother, and probably nicer than what she'd 0:06:39.480 --> 0:06:44.240 have written. Also, look, it has been you know, to 0:06:44.279 --> 0:06:46.360 be your friend has been a real pleasure and also 0:06:47.120 --> 0:06:49.560 something of a learning experience for me. And I think 0:06:49.600 --> 0:06:54.120 that what you said about how you viewed people on 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:57.840 the right, I certainly had some of that viewpoint for 0:06:57.920 --> 0:07:02.279 people on the left, and I think that not just 0:07:02.320 --> 0:07:07.480 because we disagree on things, it doesn't it doesn't mean malice. 0:07:07.760 --> 0:07:11.160 Right people disagree on different topics. Sometimes it is. And 0:07:11.200 --> 0:07:14.040 don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there isn't malice 0:07:15.040 --> 0:07:17.200 for people on the right and there isn't malice for 0:07:17.240 --> 0:07:20.760 people on the left. Obviously that is the truth. But 0:07:20.840 --> 0:07:23.800 I think for the most part, we distinguish between difference 0:07:23.800 --> 0:07:28.800 of opinion and how and and and coming from a 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:32.080 darker place. And I think those two things could live together, 0:07:32.480 --> 0:07:35.800 but oftentimes they don't, and I love them. We had 0:07:35.800 --> 0:07:38.320 the discussions. We actually are highlighting the fact that I 0:07:38.320 --> 0:07:40.440 think for most people it doesn't come from a bad place. 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:43.200 Sure sure, Now now we're going to get into the 0:07:43.200 --> 0:07:45.480 weeds here, So we're going to get into some topics 0:07:45.560 --> 0:07:47.760 and people are going to hear us and how we 0:07:48.240 --> 0:07:50.840 have our conversations because we do this from time to time, 0:07:50.840 --> 0:07:54.000 either on the phone, in person, on on uh, you know, 0:07:54.120 --> 0:07:56.600 on the radio, or you know, whatever it is we're 0:07:56.640 --> 0:08:02.600 doing professionally. But talk of about your recent documentary, because 0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:04.440 you know, you put a lot of effort into it, 0:08:04.480 --> 0:08:06.360 and I know that you want to share that and 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:07.080 you know. 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:09.679 Please so yeah. 0:08:09.680 --> 0:08:13.800 So this this documentary was in response to a lot 0:08:13.920 --> 0:08:17.720 of what people are saying about the conflict, the war 0:08:18.040 --> 0:08:23.080 in Gaza and how Israel has executed that war. And 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:24.880 I think it's an important and this is why this 0:08:24.920 --> 0:08:29.520 platform is so important, because you share an opinion that 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:31.600 I don't really share when it comes to is I 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:33.599 think we certain I think we you and I have 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:36.480 made some progress from both perspective. I think we've you 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:39.240 and I both mediated some of our views on this topic. 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:43.200 But the crux of the video was this is that 0:08:43.320 --> 0:08:47.720 there's a narrative going on that Israel essentially is committing 0:08:47.800 --> 0:08:51.920 genocide and that Israel's intent is to harm civilians, that 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:56.040 they are trying to wipe out the civilian population in Gaza. 0:08:56.360 --> 0:08:59.280 And this video, this documentary is a response to that 0:08:59.360 --> 0:09:03.959 where I try to bring in experts, try to go 0:09:03.960 --> 0:09:07.960 there myself, go through data because I think data ultimately 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:10.000 is really important. I know a lot of people will 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:14.040 say to me, well, data excludes dead children. Just because 0:09:14.040 --> 0:09:17.400 you say data, they're still dead children. I go. I 0:09:17.440 --> 0:09:21.720 get that emotional response, but ultimately, war is war. And 0:09:21.760 --> 0:09:25.000 in order to come up to some kind of conclusion 0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:29.880 on whether or not this war is being prosecuted in 0:09:29.920 --> 0:09:32.880 the most ethical way possible. And I say most ethical 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:36.600 way possible because Ramsey's war, you know, is that quote 0:09:36.640 --> 0:09:40.640 by I think it's by patent war as hell, and 0:09:40.720 --> 0:09:45.520 it is. War is a horrific human dnaver that is 0:09:45.559 --> 0:09:51.920 sometimes necessary, sometimes unnecessary. But in both cases, war is 0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:57.960 difficult and it's bloody, and people are are killed, many 0:09:57.960 --> 0:10:01.319 people were killed who are not combat In fact, generally, 0:10:01.360 --> 0:10:05.200 when one engages in war, even if you're trying, even 0:10:05.360 --> 0:10:09.160 the most ethical armies in the history of the Earth, 0:10:09.200 --> 0:10:12.000 let's say, Native one would argue that Western European war 0:10:12.360 --> 0:10:15.599 is as ethical as one can make war. The majority, 0:10:15.760 --> 0:10:18.320 the vast majority of civilians that are the people are 0:10:18.360 --> 0:10:20.760 killed are still going to be civilians. It's the nature 0:10:20.760 --> 0:10:24.400 of war. So getting past the emotion, I wanted to 0:10:24.400 --> 0:10:26.200 get into some of the data to get a sense 0:10:26.240 --> 0:10:30.440 of is Israel committing war crimes as a matter of course, 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:34.079 obviously every army is a commit certain amount of war crimes. 0:10:34.080 --> 0:10:37.320 So it's impossible because humans are involved, and you're going 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:42.720 to have a certain amount of unethical behavior, right, Even 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:43.920 some that account. 0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:44.880 To war crimes, bad actors. 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:47.800 That doesn't mean what's that bad actors, that you're good 0:10:47.880 --> 0:10:50.560 bad actors for sure. That doesn't mean that the war 0:10:50.600 --> 0:10:53.880 itself is being prosecuted in an ethical way, right, as 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:57.160 opposed to let's say Russia and the way Russia's prosecuting 0:10:57.200 --> 0:11:01.880 its war. Its entire war plan is war crimes. That's 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:04.680 all it's trying to do. It's not trying to avoid civilians. 0:11:04.720 --> 0:11:08.120 It's trying to kill as many civilians as possible. I 0:11:08.120 --> 0:11:11.680 would argue that that's the entire intent of Hamas. Hamas 0:11:11.760 --> 0:11:15.480 isn't looking to to never mind, it is not never mind, 0:11:15.520 --> 0:11:19.560 that's not trying to reduce the amount of Israeli civilian casualties, right, 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:21.760 trying to kill as many is really civil as possible. 0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:24.280 I would argue the Hamas is trying to kill and 0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:26.960 have as many of its own civilians killed as possible 0:11:27.360 --> 0:11:29.760 as because that's a propaganda wind for them. So that's 0:11:29.840 --> 0:11:32.360 essentially the the idea of this documentary. 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:34.040 Okay, one more time, what is the name of it? 0:11:35.080 --> 0:11:35.840 The Art of War? 0:11:36.200 --> 0:11:37.199 Where can people find it? 0:11:37.480 --> 0:11:40.520 They can find it anywhere on YouTube. Okayger you is 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:44.280 one one of the distributors. I knew again. Chuckle out 0:11:44.280 --> 0:11:44.680 of you on that. 0:11:46.920 --> 0:11:50.400 Yeah, that's an inside joke between Amy and myself. I'm 0:11:50.480 --> 0:11:53.840 not a fan of Prager you and Ami is a 0:11:53.880 --> 0:11:56.320 is a fan of Praguer you. But that that's for 0:11:56.360 --> 0:12:01.600 another day. Okay, so let's get into it, Imy, my brother. 0:12:05.360 --> 0:12:07.839 You know, I was with my son today and I 0:12:07.920 --> 0:12:13.760 knew we'd have this conversation. And yesterday, my son, he's 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:16.079 ten years old, he went and got his ears pierced. Okay, no, 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:19.760 that's probably not a thing that you know people do widely, 0:12:19.840 --> 0:12:22.080 but in our culture, that's the thing that we do. 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:25.040 Right, So I took my little boy to get his 0:12:25.080 --> 0:12:26.520 ears pierced. He wanted his earrings. 0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:29.360 We got him done, and then I looked at him 0:12:29.400 --> 0:12:33.440 and he's a young man, right, So just that, just 0:12:33.559 --> 0:12:35.599 like that, and I'm like taking it in that I 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:40.200 get to watch my son grow up. And I know 0:12:40.200 --> 0:12:43.600 that I'm gonna have this conversation with you, and I 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:45.079 know you're going to talk about your film, and we're 0:12:45.080 --> 0:12:47.520 going to talk about many other things, and I want 0:12:47.600 --> 0:12:50.520 you to talk about your film. When we were last together, 0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:52.720 I made a comment, shooters are going to shoot, right, 0:12:53.320 --> 0:12:55.280 You're going to do what it is that you do. 0:12:55.400 --> 0:13:01.040 You're a journalist, your personality. You make content that is 0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:09.920 widely received, well received, and it brings a perspective to 0:13:11.040 --> 0:13:17.320 the common dialogue that has just as much a place 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:25.240 as something I would bring. Okay, I famously will say that, hey, look, 0:13:25.240 --> 0:13:28.320 I have my own personal political biases. I think that 0:13:28.400 --> 0:13:30.199 the world should look this way. I think that people 0:13:30.200 --> 0:13:31.960 should behave this way. I think that we should be 0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:35.160 good to each other. And what I know to be 0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:38.840 good to each other differs from what other people what 0:13:38.840 --> 0:13:42.360 their line is. Right, So in that I admit my bias, 0:13:43.080 --> 0:13:46.200 and for you to say that you're a conservative filmmaker, 0:13:47.520 --> 0:13:54.840 I think therein lies your conservative bias. Right admitted conservative bias. 0:13:56.360 --> 0:13:59.760 These things are all really good to establish upfront, because 0:14:01.200 --> 0:14:04.000 these aren't hidden elements. These are things that you know. 0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:07.400 I'm being fully transparent. You've always been very transparent to me. 0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:14.080 While we're on the subject of Israel, one of the 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:17.400 things that I might say in a conversation with you 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:20.600 that I want our listeners to know, given what you've 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:26.320 said and I've actually seen your film, is that while 0:14:26.360 --> 0:14:31.600 I appreciate the additional perspective that helps that helps a 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:34.200 man that grew up with Jewish people, played with Jewish 0:14:34.240 --> 0:14:37.560 children when I was a child, taught Jewish children my culture, 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:43.280 and was taught Jewish culture from Jewish friends of mine, 0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:46.000 some of whom are still my friends today. And along 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:49.680 the way we've grown and we've maintained friendships, and we've 0:14:49.720 --> 0:14:52.680 lost people along the way, and we've gained new family 0:14:52.720 --> 0:14:57.320 and new friends along the way, etc. The whole time, 0:14:57.360 --> 0:15:00.480 knowing not much about Israel, but Jewish people have always 0:15:00.520 --> 0:15:09.880 had my heart. I would say to you, my brother 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:14.160 Amy Horowitz, that if I lived in a parallel universe, 0:15:16.240 --> 0:15:19.880 the moral stance that I have with respect to Palestine 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:23.680 and Israel's response to Palestine, not Jewish people's response, but 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:29.360 Israel's response to the people in Palestine. 0:15:27.560 --> 0:15:30.680 I believe it would be exactly the same. 0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:36.040 If I lived in an alternate universe where Palestine was 0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:39.480 bombing people and they had every single justification, and they 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:41.920 were doing it as ethically as possible as they could, 0:15:42.440 --> 0:15:44.880 and everything was all buttoned up as much as they 0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:46.960 could make it, and they could pass inspection or take 0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:48.920 it to court and win, you know whatever. 0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:51.000 I would have the same response. 0:15:51.080 --> 0:15:54.000 If I looked at the numbers and I saw that 0:15:54.080 --> 0:15:59.480 there were ultimately less Jewish children in the world as 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:04.119 a result of a Palestinian campaign. Living in that reality 0:16:04.280 --> 0:16:08.600 for me would be unconscionable, and my reaction would be 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:09.080 the same. 0:16:10.000 --> 0:16:13.960 And so the love that I have. 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:23.080 For Jewish people is for the people first, the culture second. 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:26.560 And I recognize, and you and I have this conversation before, 0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:30.360 that there is a finite number of Jewish people. When 0:16:30.400 --> 0:16:31.840 I found that, I think you might have been the 0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:35.800 one that told me that that there was it was. 0:16:35.920 --> 0:16:40.080 It might have been like sixteen million Jewish people on 0:16:40.160 --> 0:16:44.480 Earth or some incredibly, you see what I mean, what 0:16:44.600 --> 0:16:51.040 a small number? Right, So, human beings that value human beings, 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:54.360 human beings that recognize our path would recognize, oh, we're 0:16:54.440 --> 0:17:01.120 losing this precious group of people, and that is not 0:17:01.400 --> 0:17:03.640 the world that I want to live in. We need 0:17:03.680 --> 0:17:05.919 to be growing this group of people. These people are 0:17:05.960 --> 0:17:09.600 valuable and special and precious. And all of these narratives 0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:13.040 and all of these anti Semitic comments and all these 0:17:13.119 --> 0:17:15.679 Kanye West people and people that allow that to have 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:17.920 all that sort of stuff, you know, these Nazi salutes 0:17:17.920 --> 0:17:23.359 by these people on stages and whatever. That is the 0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:26.280 sort of thing I push back against. But I like 0:17:26.400 --> 0:17:29.800 to think that I would keep that same energy when 0:17:29.800 --> 0:17:32.480 it comes to Palestine, just like if the roles were reversed, 0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:35.760 I'd keep that same energy if it was the nation 0:17:36.200 --> 0:17:41.200 state of Palestine that was taking out buildings and institutions 0:17:41.200 --> 0:17:44.600 and lives of Jewish people, and then where do we 0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:49.399 go from there? And everybody's okay with this? There's a 0:17:49.440 --> 0:17:52.480 stunning silence, and indeed there's a documentary that comes out 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:58.520 that provides some cover, which again I understand, Ami, I do, 0:17:58.680 --> 0:17:59.920 I understand. 0:17:59.480 --> 0:18:01.879 Because people need to be able to say their peace 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:02.240 with this. 0:18:02.359 --> 0:18:05.359 Society indeed is built on you say what happened, I 0:18:05.440 --> 0:18:08.359 say what happened, and there's a judge or arbitrator whoever 0:18:08.400 --> 0:18:11.120 that finds out what the truth will be. That will 0:18:11.160 --> 0:18:13.760 be chronicled and we will move forward as a society 0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:17.840 based on that. So having the other the opposing narrative 0:18:17.840 --> 0:18:22.440 I suppose is valid. But the end result, the thing 0:18:22.480 --> 0:18:28.080 that you said, People's reaction is strongest when they're digesting that. 0:18:28.119 --> 0:18:34.320 The end result I believe is consistent with what I 0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:39.639 know to be human morality. In short, people A that 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:43.240 don't have anything to do with this, and B that 0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:48.679 are dying. It's so permanent. What will be Palestine on 0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:51.960 the other side of this? And again, when you reverse 0:18:52.000 --> 0:18:54.000 the roles, what would be Israel on the other side 0:18:54.040 --> 0:18:57.240 of a similar campaign in the hypothetical universe is where 0:18:57.280 --> 0:19:00.800 I find myself. So your response to that will move 0:19:00.840 --> 0:19:02.440 to I want to make sure I give you the 0:19:02.480 --> 0:19:04.200 last word as often as I can, But your response 0:19:04.240 --> 0:19:06.000 to that will move to some other topics. 0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:11.520 Look, h what you said is part of the reason why 0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:14.119 I love because you do have a big heart, and 0:19:14.200 --> 0:19:16.359 I do believe that you would have the same response 0:19:16.400 --> 0:19:18.639 if if, if, if the shoe is the on their foot, 0:19:18.680 --> 0:19:20.840 I think you said, I I believe because I know 0:19:20.920 --> 0:19:26.239 you and you're honest. But my response that is, we 0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:28.400 don't live in a perfect world. In fact, I would 0:19:28.480 --> 0:19:30.960 argue that perfect the perfect, is the enemy of the good, 0:19:31.000 --> 0:19:34.280 and every time we try to pursue perfection and saying, look, 0:19:34.520 --> 0:19:36.680 every life is precious. First of all, not every life 0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:39.280 is precious. Right, anyone who's a murder or a killer, 0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:42.000 his life is less precious than an innocent person. Certainly, 0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:46.720 any any innocent life is something that we that we 0:19:47.359 --> 0:19:52.120 any any good person more right, And obviously no one 0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:56.359 wants to have innocent life or not a not no, 0:19:56.560 --> 0:19:58.800 Actually it's part of the problem. Some do want innocent 0:19:58.840 --> 0:20:01.800 lives to be lost. But good people, all good people 0:20:01.840 --> 0:20:05.119 don't want innocent lives loss. Certainly Israel doesn't want innocent 0:20:05.200 --> 0:20:08.320 lives lobs and it bothers them, you know. There there 0:20:08.359 --> 0:20:11.440 was a famous quote by Goldemeyer. She was a Prime 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:14.639 Minister of Israel, right, female prime minister of Israel, and 0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:17.040 she had a number of very famous quotes, and one 0:20:17.080 --> 0:20:21.159 of her more famous ones were the one thing I 0:20:21.240 --> 0:20:25.480 will never forgive the Palaestudians for is making us kill 0:20:25.520 --> 0:20:30.480 their children. It's a powerful statement because it says two things. 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:34.520 One is the fact that she so in her bones 0:20:34.600 --> 0:20:38.879 like most Israelis do not want to kill Palestinian kids. 0:20:39.359 --> 0:20:41.359 But on the other hand, understands the reality of the 0:20:41.359 --> 0:20:45.159 situation that sometimes we're forced to right and that it 0:20:45.280 --> 0:20:49.680 bothers us to our bones. But that's the reality when 0:20:49.720 --> 0:20:52.040 we're facing war. 0:20:52.400 --> 0:20:52.600 You know. 0:20:52.680 --> 0:20:58.399 There's also a famous saying in Israel, which is the 0:20:58.560 --> 0:21:02.000 moment all Padians put their weapons down is the moment 0:21:02.080 --> 0:21:05.600 we have peace in the region. And the moment Israel 0:21:05.640 --> 0:21:08.680 puts its weapons down is the moment we have genocide. 0:21:09.640 --> 0:21:12.520 I think there's a difference. There is a difference, operating difference. 0:21:13.080 --> 0:21:17.440 The mantra of look the truth is that this this 0:21:17.440 --> 0:21:19.960 this this argument is it was left op, was left 0:21:20.280 --> 0:21:24.400 bare and open and and obvious. When the the mantra 0:21:24.560 --> 0:21:27.720 of the Palestinian protesters in America and in Europe is 0:21:27.720 --> 0:21:30.240 from the river to the sea. And I don't want 0:21:30.240 --> 0:21:31.760 to I don't want to wash that over saying, oh, 0:21:31.760 --> 0:21:33.320 it's just some kind of random thing. It's not. It's 0:21:33.359 --> 0:21:38.480 a very specific statement which means they don't want self 0:21:38.480 --> 0:21:44.879 determination of these people, of of just the West Bank, 0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:48.520 and and and and Gaza. I'm for that, I'm for 0:21:48.640 --> 0:21:53.720 their self determination. I want a healthy, strong Palestinian state 0:21:54.600 --> 0:21:57.399 that works with Israel, Paladian people, that works with Israel 0:21:57.440 --> 0:21:59.879 to make the region a better place. Well, when they 0:22:00.000 --> 0:22:02.320 the river to the sea is a very specific concept. 0:22:02.720 --> 0:22:05.800 It is we want to get rid of every Jew 0:22:06.160 --> 0:22:09.280 that lives between the Jordan River and the ocean and 0:22:09.320 --> 0:22:15.359 the sea right the Mediterranean Sea, and they want it 0:22:15.520 --> 0:22:20.760 cleansed of Jews. They want the Palestinian nation to take 0:22:21.080 --> 0:22:24.440 all of the land. And that's what Israel's fighting against. 0:22:24.800 --> 0:22:28.000 And yes, there have been innocent people who have died, 0:22:28.000 --> 0:22:31.280 and good people moan more than that, and certainly I do. 0:22:31.760 --> 0:22:33.080 At the end of the day, we have to look 0:22:33.119 --> 0:22:36.480 at ultimately how it's producting conducting itself, and I would 0:22:36.480 --> 0:22:39.040 say it's conducting yourself in a in a one of 0:22:39.119 --> 0:22:41.200 the most if not the most ethical war we've seen, 0:22:41.240 --> 0:22:42.240 an urban warfare. 0:22:45.080 --> 0:22:48.960 Okay, I think that to a lot of people. 0:22:51.600 --> 0:22:53.400 I'm gonna I'm going to back up to the same 0:22:53.480 --> 0:22:59.520 hypothetical here and again last word is yours. But if 0:22:59.560 --> 0:23:02.720 there was there's a version of this that we had 0:23:02.760 --> 0:23:06.320 to deal with where let's say Ramses is the decider. 0:23:06.480 --> 0:23:09.320 I get to decide who lives and who dies. And 0:23:09.400 --> 0:23:15.880 there is a Palestinian person or a Jewish person, let's 0:23:15.880 --> 0:23:19.320