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Speaker 1: Cable news is ripping us apart, dividing the nation, making

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Speaker 1: it impossible to function as a society and to know

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Speaker 1: what is true and what is false. The good news

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Speaker 1: why we're building something new. Be part of creating a new, better, healthier,

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Speaker 1: member today at breakingpoints dot com. Your hard earned money

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Speaker 1: is going to help us build for the midterms and

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Speaker 1: the upcoming presidential election so we can provide unparalleled coverage

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Speaker 1: of what is sure to be one of the most

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Speaker 1: pivotal moments in American history. So what are you waiting for?

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Speaker 1: Go to Breakingpoints dot com to help us out. We've

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Speaker 1: brought you the news of many different series which are

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Speaker 1: getting canceled, and the latest one has some interesting implications

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Speaker 1: to put it up there on the screen, which is

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Speaker 1: that Netflix is scrapping the animated projects including Ava du

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Speaker 1: Varone's Wings of Fire, but also Anti Racist Baby by

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Speaker 1: Ibrahim X Kendy. So obviously, mister Kennedy became a best

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Speaker 1: selling author during the BLM protests of twenty twenty. He's

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Speaker 1: the proponent of you Know How To be an anti

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Speaker 1: racist massive best selling books, really the inventor of kind

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Speaker 1: of anti racist ideology. Going back about a decade, I

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Speaker 1: actually read some of his books before he even became

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Speaker 1: a thing quote unquote during twenty twenty. I remember thinking

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Speaker 1: it was totally nuts at the time and continue to

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Speaker 1: stand by that. But I think it's fascinating, Crystal that

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Speaker 1: this is being canceled in the context also of Netflix's

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Speaker 1: business problems, on top of the letter that they just

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Speaker 1: issued all of their staff saying hey, if you have

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Speaker 1: a problem with the content that we produce here, you

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Speaker 1: can leave if you'd like. So, I don't know if

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Speaker 1: it's I think we should be clear it's not a

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Speaker 1: political statement by Netflix to say we're canceling this because

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Speaker 1: it doesn't agree with our content policy. But I mean

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Speaker 1: it is an empiric choice that they have to make

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Speaker 1: about what's going to perform and what's not. And I

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Speaker 1: think that a lot of the projects that were being

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Speaker 1: floated by cheap cash in order to buy off like

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Speaker 1: liberal cachet elite liberal cachet, like Megan Markle series on

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Speaker 1: her animated series and now Anti Racist Baby as well,

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Speaker 1: does show you that that content I think on a

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Speaker 1: mere business level was not going to perform very well

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Speaker 1: for all people. And also, I mean it does show

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Speaker 1: you though that the promulgation of that, you know, this

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Speaker 1: was one of the best feelling authors of just two

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Speaker 1: years ago, is certainly not in fashion anymore. I think

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Speaker 1: it's not positive, but I think it's also fascinating just

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Speaker 1: from a what people are willing to consume point of view,

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Speaker 1: which obviously Netflix has the best data in the world

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Speaker 1: of I think that's all well said. Yeah, if you're

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Speaker 1: depending for your movement on corporate backing, yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: and what's like fashionable and what's going to serve the

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Speaker 1: bottom line, that's probably not a great long term strategy,

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Speaker 1: I think is what I take from this. Most of all,

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Speaker 1: we did a segment before about Black Lives Matter, and

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Speaker 1: part of you know, there's some new transparency around where

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Speaker 1: they're funding when, and as part of that story also

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Speaker 1: the sort of increasingly corporatized direction of Black Lives Matter

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Speaker 1: from this sort of like more radical militant marks organization

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Speaker 1: to doing events sponsored by ug booths and taking checks

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Speaker 1: from like Amazon or whatever and Microsoft. Yeah, and yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean ultimately corporations are going to act in what

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Speaker 1: they perceived to be their best interests. And if your

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Speaker 1: movement doesn't happen to be like the hot thing for

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Speaker 1: affluent consumers right now, they're going to drop it, and

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Speaker 1: they're going to drop it fast. And that's basically what

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Speaker 1: I take from this ultimately, So they don't think that

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Speaker 1: there's money to be made on How to be an

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Speaker 1: Anti Racist Baby anymore. And so whatever claims they they

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Speaker 1: put out there about their commitment to racial justice, that

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Speaker 1: was all just you know, to meet the moment in

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Speaker 1: terms of what they thought would be good for their bottom.

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Speaker 1: I do want to say, because you were telling me

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Speaker 1: before I only perused Anti Racist Baby once when I

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Speaker 1: was at a bookstore, you actually read it. I did,

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Speaker 1: So what's in this damn book? Because look I read

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Speaker 1: I read the book by Kendy How to be An

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Speaker 1: I think, the predecessor to How to be An Anti

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Speaker 1: Racist Uh huh, where he advocates for the Department of

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Speaker 1: Anti Racism and Constitutional amend Man. In the history of

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Speaker 1: his view of anti racism, what I saw very much

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Speaker 1: is like a racialized view. I've always thought he's a

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Speaker 1: cancer on the society. And Nicole Hanna Jones, all of

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Speaker 1: them far before Black Lives Matter. But and I've I've

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Speaker 1: assumed that the book would be within that vein. But

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Speaker 1: you're telling me that it's different. It's okay, it's cringe.

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to say it's not cringe. Okay, there's nothing.

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Speaker 1: I'll just I'll read you a little bit and you

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Speaker 1: get a sense of it. So the first page says,

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Speaker 1: anti racist baby is not bread, not born. Anti racist

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Speaker 1: baby is raised to make society transform. Babies are taught

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Speaker 1: to be racist or anti racist. There's no neutrality. Take

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Speaker 1: these nine steps to make equity or reality. And then

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Speaker 1: step one just give you a sense of these. Open

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Speaker 1: your eyes to all skin colors. Anti racist baby learns

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Speaker 1: all the colors, not because race is true. If you

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Speaker 1: claim to be colorblind, you deny what's right in front

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Speaker 1: of you. There is one part that I actually liked,

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Speaker 1: which is point at policies is the problem, not people.

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Speaker 1: Some people get more while others get less because policies

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Speaker 1: don't always grant equal access. Shout, there's nothing wrong with

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Speaker 1: the people. Even though all races are not treated the same,

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Speaker 1: we are all human human. Anti racist Baby can proclaim

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Speaker 1: that's the vibe of it. So it's probably, I mean,

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Speaker 1: probably the most controversial part of it is like the

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Speaker 1: typical mode in white American parenting is like, let's be colorblind,

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Speaker 1: like sort of polite society approach has been we're just

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Speaker 1: everybody's the same, We're not going to talk about race,

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Speaker 1: and so this is in some ways more true to

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Speaker 1: how kids actually engage with physical differences, which if you

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Speaker 1: are a parent of little kids, you know they're going

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Speaker 1: to ask you about like why this person looks different

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Speaker 1: or that person looks different, and so this is sort

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Speaker 1: of like rather than saying like, you know, it's no

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Speaker 1: big deal and let's just like, you know, we're all

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Speaker 1: the same and glossing over that, to actually talk about, okay,

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Speaker 1: you know, yeah, this person has this different skin color,

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Speaker 1: and this is how that might affect them in their lives,

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Speaker 1: sort of like leaning more into that conversation, which personally

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Speaker 1: I don't have a problem with because I don't know

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Speaker 1: that not talking about those things and you know, things

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Speaker 1: that are obvious to kids about the different ways that

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Speaker 1: people look like, I'm not sure that that's really a

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Speaker 1: great strategy. So anyway, I didn't I read this. I

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Speaker 1: didn't think it was like anything that crazy you're like

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Speaker 1: going to kill your children or anything like that. To me,

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Speaker 1: the most telling part is, like I said before, that

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Speaker 1: Netflix clearly doesn't think that the equity moment is the

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Speaker 1: hot thing right now. And so you know, for all

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Speaker 1: those movement leaders out there, no matter what your cause

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Speaker 1: might be, don't depend on corporate America to have your

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Speaker 1: back no matter what, because ultimately they're gonna look at

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Speaker 1: the bottom line. Yeah, that's right, all right, guys, We're

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Speaker 1: finally getting a little bit of a window into the

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Speaker 1: finances of the Black Lives Matter Foundation, their international foundation,

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Speaker 1: which raised massive, many millions amounts of dollars during the

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Speaker 1: Black Lives Matter protests over George Floyd's killings and George

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Speaker 1: Floyd's murder, and there was very little transparency around this organization.

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Speaker 1: They actually hadn't filed the forms that they needed to

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Speaker 1: that charity organizations are supposed to. And there was a

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Speaker 1: real reckoning that came from other affiliated Black Lives Matter

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Speaker 1: chapters that say, hey, hey, where is this money going,

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Speaker 1: what is it being spent on? We need some transparency

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Speaker 1: and accountability here. There was also some reporting that raised

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Speaker 1: a lot of questions. We covered some of it here

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Speaker 1: in particular surrounding a six million dollar mansion that didn't

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Speaker 1: seem to really have a purpose, and there were a

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Speaker 1: lot of questions about, you know, Patrise Cullors, who was

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Speaker 1: the head of the organization, and what she was doing

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Speaker 1: with the fun So we finally got a little bit

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Speaker 1: of transparency here. Let's go ahead and put the New

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Speaker 1: York Times tear sheet up on the screen. The lead

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Speaker 1: graph here says, in the tragic world wind year of

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty, with racial justice protests prompted by the killing

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Speaker 1: of black men and women by police officers, the Black

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Speaker 1: Lives Matter Global Network Foundation raised ninety million dollars, much

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Speaker 1: of its small donations from rank and file supporters. A

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Speaker 1: recent tax filing from the group shows that by the

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Speaker 1: middle of last year, more than half of that money

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Speaker 1: had been granted to smaller organizations or spent on consultants

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Speaker 1: and real estate, leaving the foundation with forty two million

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Speaker 1: dollars in assets. Now, the questions about this spending, which

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Speaker 1: again emerged from affiliated organizations and supporters of the movement,

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Speaker 1: that has caused some turnover at the organization. Patris Colors

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Speaker 1: himself stepped down. You actually had Mignon more longtime Clinton

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Speaker 1: World aid who sat on the board for a time.

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Speaker 1: She now has stepped down. Some of the details that

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Speaker 1: came out of this initial and delayed filing are also

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Speaker 1: very concerning. Let's go ahead and put the Yahoo News

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Speaker 1: report up on the screen. So the headline here is

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Speaker 1: Black Lives Matter paid nearly four million dollars to board secretary,

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Speaker 1: co founder's brother and father of her child. The specific

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Speaker 1: details here that the payments that are listed in this

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Speaker 1: filing include nine hundred and seventy thousand dollars to a

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Speaker 1: company called Trap Heels LLC. That's a company established by

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Speaker 1: Damon turn Or, the father of Patrise's Colors child, and

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Speaker 1: also eight hundred and forty thousand dollars to Colors Protection LLC,

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Speaker 1: a security firm owned by her brother, Paul Colors. That's

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Speaker 1: again according to these tax firms, Patrise Colors herself received

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Speaker 1: no compensation during the fiscal year, instead serving as a

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Speaker 1: quote unpaid volunteer. So that is what we have learned. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I just think it's ridiculous, you know, the funneling millions

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Speaker 1: of dollars there, and you know, I think also, you know,

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Speaker 1: who are the people who blew the whistle on this

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Speaker 1: the Trayvon Mountain Foundation, the people who are the victims

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Speaker 1: of actual violence and whose families were or whose family

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Speaker 1: were family members of the people who were actually killed,

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Speaker 1: and in question, And no matter how you feel about that,

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Speaker 1: it's a free country, and BLM and many others are will,

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Speaker 1: you know, able to raise as much money as they

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Speaker 1: would want, But clearly the funds are not being used

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Speaker 1: in appropriate manner. So you both have the forty million

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Speaker 1: dollars or so that they remain in assets, the millions

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Speaker 1: of dollars that they spent on their houses, on their

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Speaker 1: personal co compensation, on moving money around to certain family members,

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Speaker 1: and it betrays the ethos of the organization. And if

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Speaker 1: you legitimately believed and wanted to donate and good meeting

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Speaker 1: people out there, I'm not saying I agree with them,

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Speaker 1: but there were a lot of good meeting people out

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Speaker 1: there in twenty twenty who were like, Hey, this is

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Speaker 1: messed up. I want to give money and support something

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Speaker 1: like this. Listen, it's America. You could do what you

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Speaker 1: want with your money. Well, then, though, these organizations owe

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Speaker 1: it to them and others to fulfill that spirit, especially

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Speaker 1: whenever there were families like the ones who were family

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Speaker 1: members were killed or were injured or whatever in altercations

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Speaker 1: with police officers. They were relying on some of that

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Speaker 1: money and they didn't get any of that money. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that is especially calling. What you're talking about is some

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Speaker 1: of the they're called mothers of the movement actually wrote

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Speaker 1: a letter saying, you send a cease and to sists

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Speaker 1: and you cannot use ye my son's name, family members'

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Speaker 1: names in your fundraising solicitations and so effectively. What happened

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Speaker 1: here is when you know they're was this massive outpouring

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Speaker 1: of grief and rage over the you know, horrific circumstances

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Speaker 1: where to give this Where where can I send money

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Speaker 1: so that I can be of service and this Black

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Speaker 1: Lives Matter, I think it's called like Global National Foundation

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Speaker 1: became kind of the catch all for that money. And

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Speaker 1: they were not at all I mean, the best thing

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Speaker 1: you could say about, the most diplomatic thing you could

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Speaker 1: possibly say about them, is that they were not at

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Speaker 1: all prepared to operate a charity at the scale of

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Speaker 1: ninety million dollars. They had two paid staffers two wow,

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Speaker 1: two paid staffers to handle this almoste hundred million dollar organization.

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Speaker 1: And so, yeah, you see this spending that's you know,

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Speaker 1: all over the place, to family members, to you know,

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Speaker 1: the father of her child. The reporting u which by

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Speaker 1: the way, came from a black journalist on the real

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Speaker 1: estate purchase also, you know, raise some really i think

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Speaker 1: difficult questions for the organization and how this money that

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Speaker 1: was meant to be spent on racial justice and criminal

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Speaker 1: justice reform was actually being spent purchasing this you know,

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Speaker 1: fancy six million dollar mansion that's appearing in these sort

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Speaker 1: of like glossy YouTube videos that are very like brand building,

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Speaker 1: not seeming to be used for the purposes that they

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Speaker 1: claimed that it would be used. There's also a detail

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Speaker 1: in here that Patrise Kullers used it for a birthday

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Speaker 1: party for her son, but she paid back. She then

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Speaker 1: you know, sent money in to say, okay, paid paid

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Speaker 1: you back for the use of this house. In any case,

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Speaker 1: you know, clearly, the most relevant questions and the most

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Speaker 1: the greatest concern initially came from the people who were

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Speaker 1: most affiliated with this movement and really believed in the cause,

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Speaker 1: and really you know, were some of whom were directly

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Speaker 1: harmed by police violence. And we're only now belatedly and

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Speaker 1: these forms were really late in being filed getting any

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Speaker 1: kind of a picture of what actually happened with half

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Speaker 1: of this money. So I think, you know, if you

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Speaker 1: are someone who cares about racial justice like this should

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Speaker 1: be you should be the most concerned about this ultimately,

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Speaker 1: because you the more that you learn, the more you

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Speaker 1: see a picture of resources that we're just being wondered.

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Speaker 1: And that's the problem that with it. You know, everybody's

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Speaker 1: just ignoring. You know, Microsoft and Amazon cut cheess to

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Speaker 1: this lady and to this organization. Like Major Fortune, five

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Speaker 1: hundred organizations included donation lates not only from their companies,

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Speaker 1: but also encouraging their employees, so you basically directed funds.

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Speaker 1: And now this charity is in such disarray and controversy

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Speaker 1: that they've been removed from like the Amazon Smile program. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so okay, I think somebody needs to explain, especially if

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Speaker 1: you're a corporation you encourage your employees to donate their

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Speaker 1: money and your own money to this organization. There's a

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Speaker 1: lot of questions here to be asked, but unfortunately it's

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Speaker 1: been totally brushed under the rug. It took you know

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Speaker 1: this New York And by the way, I'm glad it's

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Speaker 1: black journalists, Like I don't think it should have to

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Speaker 1: be black journalists like Andrew kerr Over at The Daily

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Speaker 1: Caller who I used to work with, been doing this.

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Speaker 1: It just made it that, yeah, you could be like

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Speaker 1: you are a liar. That is just an objective fact

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Speaker 1: and it's not just It doesn't have to be a

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Speaker 1: black person calling it out for us to all understand

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Speaker 1: exactly what was happening here. So anyway, uh, it's you know, look,

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Speaker 1: it's honestly tragic. Like I said, you know, I have

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Speaker 1: my problems with BOM even at the time and continue.

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Speaker 1: But like, there are a lot of people who believed

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Speaker 1: in it and ultimately I believe in freedom and they

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Speaker 1: were ripped off. And I think that that's wrong because

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Speaker 1: at the very least it should have gone to the

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Speaker 1: Trayvon Martin family or the family of George Foe, the

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Speaker 1: local chapter or the local characters, national or chapters. The

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Speaker 1: other part of the reporting was that one of the

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Speaker 1: local chapters wanted to do this like you know, this

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Speaker 1: local action Scrossroo's action, and they were told to stand

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Speaker 1: down because the black Lives Matter Global National Foundation had

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Speaker 1: some like electric slide competition sponsored by ugg Boots Plan.

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Speaker 1: So this like completely corporate thing, well, you know, monstrosity

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Speaker 1: was put in place. That's the other part of this

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Speaker 1: story is that, you know, the founders here are described

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Speaker 1: themselves as Marxists and yet yeah, the alliance with with

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Speaker 1: big corporations and corporate money is you know. And then

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Speaker 1: ultimately Mignon Wore from Clinton World coming in to like

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Speaker 1: try to write the ship is is also another tragic

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Speaker 1: part of this story, in my opinion, that's really bad.

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Speaker 1: We've covered here the closure of the DHS's Ministry of Truth,

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Speaker 1: or at the very least the pause, and then the

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Speaker 1: eventual departure of Nina Djankowitch, the so called disinformation expert.

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Speaker 1: But she is now making the rounds on cable TV

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Speaker 1: defending her time in the administration. Here's what she had

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Speaker 1: to say about the campaign by people like yours truly

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Speaker 1: for criticizing her. Really, Jamie, I would say that the

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Speaker 1: Disinformation Governmance Board was the victim of disinformation. So the

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Speaker 1: difference between dis and misinformation is disinformation is false miss

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Speaker 1: false information spread with malign intent, and clearly there was

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Speaker 1: a malign intent on some actors in the media and

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Speaker 1: in politics who just really stood up to the formation

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Speaker 1: of this board because it would be confronting disinformation. They

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Speaker 1: completely mischaracterized its mission and frankly, this childish behavior is

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Speaker 1: endangering our national security. Now, this board was set up

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Speaker 1: to counter real disinformation that makes Americans less safe, things

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Speaker 1: about false information related to disasters, border security, our elections,

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Speaker 1: and other critical infrastructure like pipelines and banks. So those

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Speaker 1: who stand in opposition to the board, which as the

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Speaker 1: Secretary said, was just an internal coordinating mechanism, something to

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Speaker 1: make sure that we were efficient and using best practices,

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Speaker 1: are standing in the way of our national security. Well

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Speaker 1: we're standing in the way of national security for pointing

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Speaker 1: out that this lady wants to edit your tweets and

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Speaker 1: was felt for herself many instances of disinformation. Actually this morning, Crystal,

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Speaker 1: we talked on our show about the Alpha Bank story

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Speaker 1: that was complete BS. Yes, who was quote very concerned

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Speaker 1: about it at the time, and hey, listen, that's okay,

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Speaker 1: but you know, maybe you should not be in a

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Speaker 1: position of deciding what is true and what is not

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Speaker 1: on behalf of the government. And it's fascinating too, because

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Speaker 1: she continues to stand by a lot of her work.

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Speaker 1: She says, this is the type of work I have

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Speaker 1: built my career on, not a few contextless tweets. This

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Speaker 1: is the type of work I will continue in the

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Speaker 1: public sphere. She's referring to a US Army War journal

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Speaker 1: quarterly that she wrote about the war on disinformation after COVID,

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Speaker 1: in which and I went through it. She endorses exactly

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Speaker 1: some of the most dystopian policies on behalf of the

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Speaker 1: government in order to control the outright flow of information.

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Speaker 1: And if that's the person who is also tweeted, remember

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Speaker 1: a police law. She was basically like, you need to

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Speaker 1: lock us up. During the lockdowns, she despite the fact

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Speaker 1: that she said that wearing masks was disinformation and advocated

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Speaker 1: for that three weeks later, said nobody is social distancing.

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Speaker 1: We just don't have it on us. Government. Please lock

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Speaker 1: everybody down. Clearly has deeply authoritarian instincts. I was telling

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Speaker 1: you also, I would love to have her on the show.

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Speaker 1: I would love to have a conversation with her and

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Speaker 1: be like, Okay, tell me what we said was disinformation.

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Speaker 1: Tell me what was disinformation. That's a part that they

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Speaker 1: never spell out. I mean, Taylor Lorenz and her infamous

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Speaker 1: piece about this never really lays down the specifics of Okay,

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Speaker 1: what was incorrect, what was wrong here? And from the beginning,

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Speaker 1: I mean, the idea is terrible and anti democratic and

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Speaker 1: authoritarian from the jump, so it's sort of like disqualified

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Speaker 1: out of the gates. Then the rollout is a disaster.

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Speaker 1: They can't explain at all to the American people what

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Speaker 1: this thing actually does. And then the choice of her,

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Speaker 1: this clearly very ideological actor who has been wrong in

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Speaker 1: certain really key tests of the spread of misinformation disinformation.

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Speaker 1: It's just the whole thing was a compounding disaster, layered

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Speaker 1: on top of what was a terminally bad idea to

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Speaker 1: start with the other piece of this that again she

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Speaker 1: does the same thing that Taylor didn't her piece, which

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Speaker 1: is at the one on the one hand being like

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Speaker 1: this was just kind of like coordinate some people. It

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Speaker 1: was really no big deal, and on the other hand

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Speaker 1: being like, you're destroying our national security for killing this board.

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Speaker 1: They still even now that the thing has been like

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Speaker 1: put on pause or disbanded or whatever it is, they

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Speaker 1: still can't actually agree on whether this board really really

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Speaker 1: mattered and was critical to national security or whether it

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Speaker 1: was no big deal and everybody's freaking out over absolutely

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Speaker 1: nothing that seems to me at the very least like gaslighting,

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Speaker 1: if not active misinformation or whatever. As well, it's a

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Speaker 1: great point, and she's like trying to point it as like, oh,

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Speaker 1: our energy grid. No, Poddy is upset that you are

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Speaker 1: going to have somebody to say about our energy grid.

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Speaker 1: We're upset because explicitly in the announcement they talked about election. Now, look,

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Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of election misinformation from Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump and from a lot of the people who support him.

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Speaker 1: It also was not that hard without the help of

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Speaker 1: the government to say, hey, this is bullshit. If you

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Speaker 1: look into it, okay, if you go and look at

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Speaker 1: every lawsuit that people file and all the bamboo ballots

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Speaker 1: claims and regardless, you'd be like, oh, you know, if

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Speaker 1: you believe this, you're kind of crazy, and you know

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Speaker 1: you can go with it if you want to, but

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Speaker 1: just know exactly where you're coming from, or if some

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Speaker 1: cell phone data from ad Neetch to Susan documentary is

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Speaker 1: enough for you. I don't know that the government telling

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Speaker 1: you that you're wrong is going to help. It's just that.

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Speaker 1: That's the point though, which is that in a free society,

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Speaker 1: it's actually not that hard in order to decide what

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Speaker 1: is true and what is not after all of the

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Speaker 1: facts generally come to light. And the concern that we

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Speaker 1: always had was the ability of a government in order

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Speaker 1: to try and be the arbiter of those facts, especially

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Speaker 1: in a time of chaos when things are unclear at

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Speaker 1: a time. Crystal, when she has cided on the side

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Speaker 1: of establishment, lies almost every time in her career. Other

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Speaker 1: piece of this that I think is really really important,

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Speaker 1: which is that this board being disbanded is actually like

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Speaker 1: a really positive sign that we have some semblance of democracy. Still,

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Speaker 1: that's a good point. Like they put this thing out,

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Speaker 1: there was a big reaction to it. I mean was

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Speaker 1: trying she and Taylor Lorenz tried to frame it as like, oh,

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Speaker 1: it was this coordinated attack. No, what actually happened is

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Speaker 1: you had, yes, some people with big accounts say hey,

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Speaker 1: this isn't great, and then there was a massive public

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Speaker 1: reaction to it. It was not just right wing, although

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Speaker 1: there certainly were a lot of right wing voices involved

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Speaker 1: as well. There were civil rights organizations that were concerned.

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Speaker 1: Dana Bash gave a very tough interview to the DHS

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Speaker 1: secretary about all of this. There are plenty of left

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Speaker 1: wing voices who were concerned as well, and the administration

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Speaker 1: saw that criticism and they said, we're going to pause.

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Speaker 1: That is democracy. That's the actual sentiment of the people

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Speaker 1: mattering in terms of our public officials. The instinct of

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Speaker 1: people like this woman and others, with the of authoritarian

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Speaker 1: tendencies and very elitist tendencies is to say, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: what these rabble rouser people over here think that shouldn't

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Speaker 1: matter at all. We just need to listen to the experts.

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Speaker 1: We need to insulate ourselves from this messiness that's going

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Speaker 1: on over on social media, where people can like express

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Speaker 1: themselves in quote unquote pile on in these coordinated attacks.

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Speaker 1: So she also backs this very sort of standard Washington

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Speaker 1: elitist view that they should be completely insulated from any

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Speaker 1: sort of public criticism and completely non responsive to public criticism.

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Speaker 1: I look at this as a real victory for the

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Speaker 1: forces of democracy and for the public having a say

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Speaker 1: in what their government ultimately does. I think that's really

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Speaker 1: well said. It's very rare that we get any sort

431
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:49,680
Speaker 1: of real public response from the Biden administrations from something

432
00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:52,359
Speaker 1: that the public wants. Yes, I think because on the merits,

433
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:53,560
Speaker 1: you can't look at this and be like, all right,

434
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:55,679
Speaker 1: this is crazy, Like you're like, this is not this

435
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,400
Speaker 1: is just not the right thing. And they could see

436
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,080
Speaker 1: also that it was bubbling up because of you. So

437
00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:03,560
Speaker 1: that's another thing too, which is that the power of

438
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,919
Speaker 1: the Internet, the power of independent platforms. I'm not going

439
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,520
Speaker 1: to say that, you know, we were instrumental or whatever,

440
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:12,440
Speaker 1: but I think all of us together speaking out about

441
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:15,480
Speaker 1: this and culling past information, we were able to circumvent

442
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,600
Speaker 1: the established media reach millions of people, and millions of

443
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,200
Speaker 1: those people had their voices heard enough that the government

444
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:23,199
Speaker 1: itself had to say, Okay, you know what, We're going

445
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:25,520
Speaker 1: to go ahead and shut this thing down. So that

446
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:30,760
Speaker 1: is one one for democracy, many others against it. Indeed,

447
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:34,720
Speaker 1: some interesting new revelutions in Kelly an Conway's book, Let's

448
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:37,480
Speaker 1: put this up there on the screen, Kelly Ann coming

449
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:42,640
Speaker 1: out glorifying Trump but skewing Jared Kushner her own husbands,

450
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:45,040
Speaker 1: which I'm just going to put that aside, because a

451
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,840
Speaker 1: certain person is known to call certain people if they

452
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 1: ever talk about her relationship. Let's just say that that's

453
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,359
Speaker 1: a well known fact out there in the open, Brandy

454
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:57,840
Speaker 1: who works in this business. But beyond that, the targeting

455
00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:01,320
Speaker 1: of Kushner is genuinely hilarious because it just confirms everything

456
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,159
Speaker 1: that we already knew at the time. She says that

457
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 1: working with Kushner was like having a take your kid

458
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:09,640
Speaker 1: to work day. Some days it felt like an extended

459
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 1: take your kid to work day when Jared was in

460
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:14,639
Speaker 1: charge of everything. And she talked about how Kushner is

461
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:16,919
Speaker 1: a very smart person whose heart is in the right place,

462
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:19,560
Speaker 1: but had an out of balance all this authority and

463
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:22,800
Speaker 1: no accountability at the White House. She talks about how

464
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:24,760
Speaker 1: Trump would just say, why don't you guys just work

465
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:28,200
Speaker 1: together and cast it kind of as men brushing her aside.

466
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:31,879
Speaker 1: But really, what is just confirms is she says, with

467
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,400
Speaker 1: Kushner in particular, that every single thing he would touch,

468
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:37,679
Speaker 1: he would think that he was God. He was like

469
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 1: And she even writes this about how, oh, he knew

470
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:41,920
Speaker 1: so much about immigration all of a sudden, Oh he

471
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,359
Speaker 1: knew so much about the Middle East because of his

472
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:48,080
Speaker 1: Abraham accors. He knew so much about criminal justice or

473
00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:49,679
Speaker 1: whatever that one he might have known about because his

474
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 1: dad was a criminal. But a point being that, and

475
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:56,040
Speaker 1: I always try to tell the Trump people, Maga people,

476
00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 1: is I'm like, here's the truth. You vote for Trump,

477
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:00,919
Speaker 1: you're working for Jared Kushner. You need to be honest

478
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:06,040
Speaker 1: about that. Because Trump does not care at all about policy.

479
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 1: I literally watched him behind the Oval office just get

480
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 1: bored with his papers. It's all Kushner. He was the

481
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,439
Speaker 1: only guy who cared about anything. And this is just

482
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 1: further confirmation. And I also think if you look at

483
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 1: all of the aids who were around him, who had

484
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,359
Speaker 1: any independent worldview whatsoever. Kelly Ann was one. She actually

485
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 1: worked on opioids, and she did some okay stuff while

486
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:29,040
Speaker 1: she was there. The rest of them, they don't want

487
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 1: to work for Trump anymore. They've all blasted him out

488
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,719
Speaker 1: in the open. Jared is a literal guarantee, Like you

489
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 1: know what it means to go work to vote for

490
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:39,960
Speaker 1: Trump again? Who is going to work in the White House?

491
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 1: It's Jared. So do you want Jared to be back

492
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:44,639
Speaker 1: in the White House? There's the actual answer. You know.

493
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 1: I heard a lot of this during Biden's knowing about Biden,

494
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,879
Speaker 1: it's about his woke staff. It's like, okay, well that

495
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,679
Speaker 1: applies to Trump too, his staff and who he picks

496
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,400
Speaker 1: and in trust. Who is his freaking son in law,

497
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 1: who is a legitimate moron. I have literally sat not

498
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,399
Speaker 1: in the meeting. I mean, he's one of the most

499
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 1: foolish people I've ever not to mention, completely corrupt. I

500
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 1: mean we've learned more and more about how he out

501
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,680
Speaker 1: his position in the White House to then go ahead

502
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 1: and like cash and immediately when he stepped outside of

503
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,360
Speaker 1: the door raising money, yeah, from the Saudis and other

504
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 1: and the others in the Gulf regions. So I mean

505
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 1: it does strike me. The framing of this though the

506
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 1: lay I haven't read the book, so I'll just put

507
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 1: that out. There are caveats, et cetera. But the framing

508
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 1: that she blast Cushner, but she sort of glorifies Trump.

509
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,360
Speaker 1: This is kind of typical Maga world coach of like

510
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 1: Trump is. I mean, it's not he's wonder of course,

511
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:40,880
Speaker 1: we love Trump and he's always right and he would

512
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 1: do the right thing if it wasn't for these bad

513
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,640
Speaker 1: people around him. And it's the same thing we're talking

514
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 1: about how Bannon will bash some of the endorsements he makes,

515
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:53,320
Speaker 1: but It's never Trump's fault. It's always the nefarious people

516
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 1: around him were steering him the wrong direction. It's like,

517
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,920
Speaker 1: come on, I mean, he's he's a grown ass man.

518
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 1: He can make his own decisions. He can make his

519
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:03,359
Speaker 1: own choices about who he hands his portfolio off to,

520
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,160
Speaker 1: who he trusts, who puts on his staff, what endorsements

521
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 1: he makes. So it always strikes me as extraordinary. Cope

522
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,400
Speaker 1: this idea that like, it's not Trump that's a problem,

523
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 1: it's really Jared Kushner. He's the issue. Both the problem. Yeah,

524
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,200
Speaker 1: the problem is Trump who trusts Jared Kushner and elevated

525
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 1: him at every single time whenever he's I mean, the

526
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 1: man hired John Boltman for his administration, Like, come on,

527
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 1: and that's on him. He decided to do that. Like

528
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 1: it's disgusting trip down memory lane, and you just know

529
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,199
Speaker 1: we're going to be cursed with these idiots again. CNN

530
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:38,200
Speaker 1: has just conducted an in depth investigation into what exactly

531
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:42,880
Speaker 1: happened when Sharene abu Aklay, who was a Palestine American journalist,

532
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,639
Speaker 1: was shot and killed while doing her job. We clearly

533
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 1: marked as a member of the press in the occupied

534
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:50,200
Speaker 1: West Bank. Let's go ahead and put this tear sheet

535
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:52,679
Speaker 1: up on the screen. So what they say here the

536
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 1: headline is they were shooting directly at the journalist's New

537
00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 1: evidence suggests Scharene Abu Aklay was killed in turn attack

538
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:05,639
Speaker 1: by Israeli forces. So a couple things came to light here, Sagar.

539
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:07,159
Speaker 1: And by the way, I should say, CNN is one

540
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 1: of a number of news organizations who have come to

541
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 1: this same conclusion at this point. But what they point

542
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 1: to is newly revealed video that allows them to pinpoint

543
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 1: the direction that the shots were coming from. Also backs

544
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,720
Speaker 1: up the claims of Charene's fellow journalists who were there

545
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 1: that there were no Palestinian militants. They were not in

546
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 1: the middle of a firefight, because you know, and also

547
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 1: as journalists, you're not an idiot. You're not going to

548
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 1: put yourself in the middle of a firefight. But the

549
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,639
Speaker 1: only shots that were being fired seem to have come

550
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 1: from the exact position of where these Israeli defense forces

551
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 1: were located in military vehicles. In fact, so let me

552
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 1: show you with my hands here. You have Sharen here

553
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 1: where she is shot and killed. You have these Raeli

554
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 1: defense forces here, and the only Palestinian militants were all

555
00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 1: the way on the other side of the of this

556
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 1: refugee camp, so far in the distance they were also

557
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 1: able to using the audio of the shots, they were

558
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 1: able to estimate the distance from which these shots occurred.

559
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 1: It was about two hundred meters, which again puts them

560
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 1: exactly in the position of where these IDF forces were

561
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 1: known to be. To me, the most clear proof here though,

562
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:23,239
Speaker 1: is the fact that you have video of individuals who

563
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 1: were you casually standing there nothing, there's no firefight, there's

564
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 1: no sort of tension or hostility, and then out of

565
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 1: nowhere these shots ring out and kill Scharene abu Ophlay.

566
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 1: The other thing they point to is there are bullet

567
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 1: holes on a tree near where Sharene is hit and killed.

568
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 1: And this is why they say that she was killed

569
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 1: in a targeted attack, because the bullet holes are so

570
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 1: close together that it's impossible. Experts say for this to

571
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 1: have just been random gunfire, that she was directly targeted

572
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 1: and killed by the Israeli Defense Force. Now, in terms

573
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 1: of what the Israeli government has said, their first statements were,

574
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 1: we have reason to believe it was Palestinians that appears

575
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 1: to be complete lies in bullshit. Then they said, there's

576
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 1: no way we could ever know what ultimately happened here.

577
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 1: Who could say what ultimately happened here? Well, you now

578
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 1: have multiple news organizations that have been able to pretty

579
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 1: precisely and conclusively conclude that, in fact, she was murdered

580
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 1: in a targeted attack by the Israeli defense forces. And

581
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 1: now the question for us is, remember, this is an

582
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 1: American journalist, Palestinian American journalists who also was an icon

583
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: in the region, household name, very well known, trailblazing female

584
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 1: journalist in the Middle East. For an administration that says

585
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 1: a lot of fancy words about their commitment to the

586
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 1: press and the free press and all of this, what

587
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 1: are you going to do and say to your buddies

588
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 1: in the Israeli government about the fact that their military

589
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 1: appears to have targeted and killed an American journalists while

590
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 1: wi a press best and doing her job. Yeah, she's

591
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 1: one of our citizens. This is not even a conversation.

592
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,000
Speaker 1: We need answers immediately. And obviously, you know, the IDEF

593
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 1: is not even open investigation. You know, I'm not sure

594
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 1: if you've seen that they're fake investigation. They said preliminary

595
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 1: findings all of that, they're going to try and bury

596
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 1: it under the rug. And look, I'm sorry, I mean,

597
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 1: you kill one of ours, you're going to have to answer.

598
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 1: And we give you a tremendous amount of military aid

599
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 1: and diplomatic support. So what exactly is all of that

600
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 1: for if not for all these good relations. I think

601
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 1: that this is one of those things where it's just

602
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 1: very clear, and even in the media treatment. I mean,

603
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 1: if an American journalist went down and was killed in

604
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 1: Ukraine by the Russians, they would be calling for World

605
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 1: War three, you know. And look, I mean I would

606
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 1: be as equally outraged if they killed one of our people.

607
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 1: One of a Fox News journalists was you know, basically

608
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 1: lost I think three of his limbs when he was

609
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 1: shelled over there. I mean, outrageous. We don't know who

610
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 1: shelled him. It's still under investigation. If it turns out

611
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:57,480
Speaker 1: the Russians, I mean, listen, I think they should pay

612
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 1: big time. But this woman was one of our people,

613
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 1: and she was shot and killed, I mean even shot

614
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 1: in the head as far as what we've seen, and

615
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 1: one of their cameramen was shot in the back by

616
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 1: the way. Yeah, now you know, I know, the chaos

617
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 1: and the fog of war and all that. But listen,

618
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 1: they've got cameras Israel Zabari Advanced Society. I want to

619
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 1: see all of it. There's camera. I mean remember that

620
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 1: time the IDF guy shot that one guy in the head.

621
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 1: There's a direct footage of all this stuff. So where's

622
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 1: the footage on this? I'm sure they have it. Well,

623
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 1: there's important. There's a lot to say here because the

624
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 1: State Department's official position from our front, Ned Price, was

625
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 1: we trust the Israelis to be able to handle this

626
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 1: independent investigation. Please please. They already have been shown to

627
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,120
Speaker 1: lie and cover up the truth, not only in this situation,

628
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 1: but many others. And when he was pressed in that

629
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 1: briefing about hey, what about the fact remember when they

630
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 1: blew up a press building that housed it was Al

631
00:32:56,360 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 1: Jazeera and AP in Gaza, or how they said like, oh,

632
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 1: we're going to provide you the proof that this was

633
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 1: being used by militants, Hey, Ned Price, did they ever

634
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 1: do that? No? No they did not. I mean he

635
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 1: was forced to admit, no, they never actually came up

636
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 1: with that evidence that they promised to provide that we

637
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 1: swear this journalist building is actually housing militants, and yet

638
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 1: you still trust them to conduct an independent investigation. You

639
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 1: still trust them to conduct in an independent investigation in

640
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 1: spite of the fact that they also were A UN

641
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 1: report found that there was credible reason to believe that

642
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 1: they directly targeted journalists previously in twenty eighteen as well.

643
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 1: So there is a pattern and a record here. The

644
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 1: idea that you're going to get some like actually independent

645
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 1: and honest report out of them is completely insane. And again,

646
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 1: this is an American citizen. And the last point I'll

647
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 1: make on this as a political one, which is that

648
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:54,240
Speaker 1: you know there's a lot of money coming into this

649
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 1: these progressive to defeat these progressives who have anything to

650
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 1: say about to be in rights. There is I mean,

651
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 1: it's so hard to talk about this without sounding anti Semitic,

652
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 1: but I'm just telling you the facts. There were millions

653
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 1: spent to try to defeat Summerly because she had something

654
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 1: to say about Palestinian and human rights. Millions spent to

655
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 1: defeat Nina Turner. And ultimately what they want to do

656
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:17,919
Speaker 1: is make sure that nobody in the US government ever

657
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 1: questions any actions from the Israeli government, Israeli military no

658
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,839
Speaker 1: matter how clearly abhorrent as this situation. Ultimately, I just know, Look,

659
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 1: it's not anti Semitic to say that Israel should just

660
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 1: be treated like any other country of which we have

661
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:33,319
Speaker 1: a bilateral relationship. I've had the same position. I like israe.

662
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 1: I've been Israel, I spent a lot of time there.

663
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:36,440
Speaker 1: It's a cool place. But I'm just telling you, like

664
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 1: I would treat them as why I treat any other person,

665
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:43,879
Speaker 1: and anybody who calls himself American should probably do this. Yeah,

666
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 1: we definitely say the same shit about the Saudi, So

667
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 1: you're not gonna hit us with that, like singling them

668
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:50,800
Speaker 1: out stuff, although I'm sure my dms will still be hot. Indeed,

669
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 1: it's okay seeing intelligence. A bombshell new third party report

670
00:34:55,880 --> 00:35:00,320
Speaker 1: detailing the cover up of rampant cover up of sexual

671
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:04,239
Speaker 1: assault and harassment allegations within the Southern Baptist Convention has

672
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:06,880
Speaker 1: really rocked that church from top to bottom. Let's go

673
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:08,719
Speaker 1: ahead and put this New York Times tear sheet up

674
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:10,719
Speaker 1: on the screen. The headline here is Southern Baptist sex

675
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:13,880
Speaker 1: abuse report stunts from pulpit to pews. The results of

676
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 1: a sprawling investigation are coursing through every level of Baptist

677
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 1: society at an already fraught moment for the nation's largest

678
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:26,319
Speaker 1: Protestant denomination. This particular report documents just what an earth

679
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 1: chattering revelation some of the details of this report actually

680
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 1: caused within the church itself. Now, this came out because

681
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:38,799
Speaker 1: there had been some reporting saga from local paper in

682
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 1: Texas detailing some sexual abuse charges against pastors within the

683
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 1: Southern Baptist Convention, and that raised a lot of questions,

684
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:51,400
Speaker 1: and the Convention ultimately demanded that this third party investigation

685
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 1: be conducted, and that report just came out, And I

686
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 1: want to read for you a little bit of what

687
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:01,399
Speaker 1: a previously high ranking member of the church, Russell Moore,

688
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 1: who served as president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission,

689
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 1: what he wrote about the revelations in this report. He

690
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 1: was one of the individuals who has really been raising

691
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 1: red flags about their handling of sexual abuse, who really

692
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 1: pushed for this independent investigation, and what he says in

693
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 1: terms of the details of what came out, the conclusions

694
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 1: of the report are so massive as to almost defy someation.

695
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,880
Speaker 1: It corroborates in details charges of deception, stonewalling, and intimidation

696
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,240
Speaker 1: of victims and those calling for reform. It includes written

697
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,799
Speaker 1: conversations among top Executive Committee staff and their lawyers that

698
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 1: display the sort of inhumanity one could hardly have scripted

699
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:40,240
Speaker 1: for villains and a TV crime drama. It documents callous

700
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:44,239
Speaker 1: cover ups by some SBC leaders and credible allegations of

701
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:48,440
Speaker 1: sexually predatory behavior by some of the leaders themselves, including

702
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 1: former SBC President Johnny Hunt, who was one of the

703
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 1: only figures in SBC life who seemed to be respected

704
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:56,840
Speaker 1: across all of the typical divides. And then there is

705
00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 1: the document in mistreatment by the Executive Committee of a

706
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:02,120
Speaker 1: sexual abuse serve, whose own story of her abuse was

707
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 1: altered to make it seem that her abuse was a

708
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 1: consensual affair, resulting, as the report corroborates, in years of

709
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,720
Speaker 1: living hell for her. For years. Leaders in the Executive

710
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 1: Committee said a database to prevent sexual predators from quietly

711
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 1: moving from one church to another to a new set

712
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 1: of victims had been thoroughly investigated and found to be

713
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:24,840
Speaker 1: legally impossible given Baptist church autonomy. My mouth fell open

714
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:27,879
Speaker 1: when I read documented proof in the report that these

715
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 1: very people not only knew how to have a database

716
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:35,239
Speaker 1: they allready had one, and that was perhaps sagar the

717
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 1: most sort of earth shattering revelation here was that all

718
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 1: the time, people who were advocates who wanted to protect themselves,

719
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 1: protect their children within these churches, they were asking the

720
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,840
Speaker 1: executive committee, can we keep a database of known allegations

721
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 1: of people who have been proven to be sexual predators

722
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:53,640
Speaker 1: so that we can make sure they're not just getting

723
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:56,399
Speaker 1: shuffled among churches. And they kept saying, no, we can't

724
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 1: do that, or lawyers say it's impossible because we had

725
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 1: this democratic, autonomous strug. Sure. Meanwhile, while they are saying

726
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 1: this directly lying to the people who have concerns, they

727
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 1: are maintaining their own database that included more than seven

728
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 1: hundred names of people who were credibly accused of sexual assaults.

729
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 1: So there are a lot of parallels here with the

730
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,840
Speaker 1: Catholic Church and the cover up there. And the bottom

731
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:24,319
Speaker 1: line was that comes out of this report, and I

732
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 1: actually went in depth and read a lot about this thing,

733
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,439
Speaker 1: the church and the leadership and their legal counsel were

734
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 1: much more concerned about avoiding any sort of scandal or

735
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 1: personal or church liability than they were about protecting their

736
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 1: most vulnerable members. In every single instance they aired on

737
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:45,320
Speaker 1: the side of let me protect my own ass instead

738
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:47,800
Speaker 1: of making sure that the people who are entrusted to

739
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 1: my care are safe and taking care. I grew up

740
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 1: around are a lot of Southern Baptists and college station techtius,

741
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 1: and you know, they put a lot of faith in

742
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:57,720
Speaker 1: their leadership. And one of the things that the Baptists

743
00:38:57,719 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 1: always pride themselves on is that it's like a convention

744
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 1: versus like the Catholic Church where you have to take

745
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:06,080
Speaker 1: It's more democratic, more American, as they say, versus the

746
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:08,400
Speaker 1: Catholic Church where you have to take like the edicts

747
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:11,480
Speaker 1: or whatever from the pope. But I mean, this is

748
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 1: looking pretty Catholic Church to me. And fortunately we see

749
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:19,840
Speaker 1: here that four hundred leaders from youth past youth pastors

750
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:23,720
Speaker 1: that one really gets me to top ministers pleaded guilty

751
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:26,319
Speaker 1: or have been convicted of sex crimes against more than

752
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 1: seven hundred victims since nineteen ninety eight. That's really not

753
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:31,240
Speaker 1: that long ago. And by the way, the only reason

754
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:33,719
Speaker 1: this entire thing happened was because the Houston Chronicle and

755
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 1: the San Antonio Express revealed it. They would have kept

756
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:38,840
Speaker 1: covering it up if they could. Hell yeah, and that's really,

757
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:42,920
Speaker 1: you know, really the terrible part. Now the report being revealed,

758
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 1: will it actually change anything? I think the part of

759
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 1: the issue is that, you know, in a way, the church,

760
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 1: the Catholic Church at least, had an easier job if

761
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:51,799
Speaker 1: they had wanted to actually clean all this stuff up,

762
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 1: because they could legitimately fire people and prevent them from moving.

763
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:58,279
Speaker 1: With democratic congregations like this, you don't have as much

764
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 1: of control, you know, they can, I think, and again

765
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 1: the Baptist can correct me, but you can like decide

766
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 1: to leave and go off in like a splinter direction.

767
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:09,200
Speaker 1: So they have well, and here's part of what is

768
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 1: so controversial is they have expelled churches for seeming to

769
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 1: back like gay marriage or anything regards to gay relationships.

770
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:23,600
Speaker 1: So they've been very very happy to expel them from

771
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 1: the flock. And also anyone who you know, went in

772
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:29,880
Speaker 1: the direction of having like women pastors, they're you know,

773
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 1: comfortable expelling them. But then when it came to literal

774
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:38,239
Speaker 1: sexual predators of children in certain cases, then that they

775
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 1: swept under the rug and had nothing to say about.

776
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 1: So they certainly had some tools at their disposal and

777
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 1: continue to their first move that they've made is they

778
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 1: say they're going to now release this list of all

779
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 1: the ones who they're sort of like provable documented evidence,

780
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 1: like you said, the ones who've actually been convicted, for example,

781
00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 1: or there's documentary evidence proving the charges against them. So

782
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 1: you're not just you knowing someone's name out there because

783
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:06,799
Speaker 1: on relatively meritless accusations. But they're going to publish this list,

784
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:09,880
Speaker 1: so at least as a first start. But you know,

785
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:13,759
Speaker 1: it's it's a pretty, it's a bombshell report. And I

786
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:16,480
Speaker 1: do think it's important to note that the impetus for

787
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 1: this report came from within. One of the details that

788
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 1: I also found extremely disgusting is the way that at

789
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:27,239
Speaker 1: least one of the women who came forward, rather than

790
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 1: you know, accepting her claims or looking into it or

791
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 1: dealing with it, they instead smeared her as an adulter

792
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 1: and made her like an outcast to the whole faith,

793
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 1: in the whole community, which also sets an example for

794
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 1: others who are thinking of coming forward, like, oh, this

795
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:41,880
Speaker 1: is going to this will they're not going to believe me,

796
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:46,400
Speaker 1: this is going to destroy my life. Instead. So pretty

797
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 1: dramatic report here with massive implications, and as I said,

798
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:54,920
Speaker 1: to start with, that New York Times report really details

799
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:58,440
Speaker 1: just how much this has rocked this church and how

800
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,799
Speaker 1: much the membership is is taking it in is incredibly

801
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 1: disgusted with the actions of leadership, some of whom were

802
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:07,759
Speaker 1: actually directly implicated in sexual abuse themselves. Yeah, they should

803
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:09,839
Speaker 1: be all be obviously fired. I mean, luckily we have

804
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 1: no say, but you know, if they want what's good

805
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 1: for them, and I do think, you know, I'll just

806
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:18,759
Speaker 1: say younger evangelicals who I know are really very against,

807
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,359
Speaker 1: you know, the actual personal corruption at the leadership level,

808
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 1: and are a lot less tribal in general whenever it

809
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 1: comes to the way that people in the sixties and

810
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 1: seventies approached evangelism in that So we'll see if it

811
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 1: changes things down there, although I have my relative doubts. Indeed,

812
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 1: obviously there has been a lot breaking in the news recently,

813
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:42,719
Speaker 1: but we did not want to lose sight of the

814
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 1: extraordinary campaign of Starbucks workers across the country to unionize

815
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:48,759
Speaker 1: their stores. And one of the stories that we have

816
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 1: been following is that of Leila Dalton. Let's go ahead

817
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:53,840
Speaker 1: and put Layla up on the screen. She was the

818
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:57,840
Speaker 1: Starbucks worker who was fired. The NLRB Sate says that

819
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:02,359
Speaker 1: firing was a legal retaliation. There's an effort to reinstate

820
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:05,360
Speaker 1: her at Starbucks, and Leila Dalton joins us now for

821
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:09,239
Speaker 1: an update. Great to see you. I thank you so

822
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:12,880
Speaker 1: much for having me to see you. Of course, go

823
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 1: ahead and put this more perfect union tear sheet up

824
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:17,719
Speaker 1: on the screen, which has some of the details of

825
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:20,440
Speaker 1: what happened. Here. They say Starbucks fires union leader for

826
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:25,080
Speaker 1: protecting herself against harassment. So Layla, just so people know

827
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:28,440
Speaker 1: kind of the background here, Can you explain the circumstances

828
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 1: of your firing. Yeah, so, basically from the star of

829
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:41,839
Speaker 1: my store, trying to organize the day or not the day,

830
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 1: I guess you can say, the following shift. After I

831
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 1: handed out the ballot cards the first day, I got

832
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 1: a write up that went basically almost six months back,

833
00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:57,319
Speaker 1: and it was a bunch of things that were never

834
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:01,319
Speaker 1: enforced before or things I brought to their And that's

835
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:05,960
Speaker 1: really when the harassment started. Where after that I started

836
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 1: to countlessly get pulled in the back, interrogated, questioned, and

837
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:17,440
Speaker 1: it was just the start of what led to my firing.

838
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 1: And Leila, let's talk about the circumstance also, not only

839
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:24,880
Speaker 1: the retaliation, but what it means in the broader context

840
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:31,799
Speaker 1: of your efforts on the unionization effort. Yeah, so for

841
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:37,200
Speaker 1: this whole unionizing effort, we are just trying to have

842
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 1: a voice as workers. It's not like about left, it's

843
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 1: not about right. It's about the working people, the working class,

844
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:49,760
Speaker 1: and we all can relate. We've all been short staffed,

845
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 1: we've all been put in unsafe conditions and maybe not trained,

846
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 1: and we've all just we've been we can relate to

847
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:00,960
Speaker 1: get like we can relate to each other. So it's

848
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 1: all of us coming together and realizing we have a

849
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:07,880
Speaker 1: voice and we shouldn't just expect this treatment because we're

850
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:11,200
Speaker 1: we're the working class and we're part of the food

851
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:16,360
Speaker 1: industry or you know, Amazon. So I think that this

852
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:20,920
Speaker 1: is just showing everyone, especially people in my generation, that

853
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:26,280
Speaker 1: you can have a voice, you can we can make change.

854
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:29,960
Speaker 1: It just it takes effort and it's it's a war.

855
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 1: So it's going to take you know, some people losing

856
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 1: the job sadly to get this to actually I think succeed.

857
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:43,040
Speaker 1: What has this been like for you personally? What has

858
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 1: the struggle been like for you since you were fired

859
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:53,359
Speaker 1: from the store. Yeah, I would definitely say it's it's

860
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:58,919
Speaker 1: been hard trying to keep going all the time when

861
00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:03,920
Speaker 1: I I miss my partners back at my store. These

862
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 1: people weren't just like coworkers to me. They were my

863
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:10,840
Speaker 1: best friends. They still are my best friends, but I

864
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:13,319
Speaker 1: can't see them all the time, especially because we all

865
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 1: have our own lives and going to work was just

866
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:18,280
Speaker 1: a place. At least they used to be a place

867
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 1: where if I had something on my mind, something going on,

868
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 1: I could just go hang out with my friends, go

869
00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:27,480
Speaker 1: think about, get annoyed about maybe a customer or saying something,

870
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:32,359
Speaker 1: or just you know, have fun. And it's now not

871
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 1: turned into that. My coworkers, my coader they're basically they

872
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:40,960
Speaker 1: feel like their their soul is being drained and it's

873
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:44,640
Speaker 1: not the place you want to be anymore. So it's

874
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:48,040
Speaker 1: it's been hard also not being able to be the

875
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:54,239
Speaker 1: person there helping everyone since I've kind of like everyone's

876
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:56,919
Speaker 1: like my friend, and the way I kind of roll

877
00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:59,759
Speaker 1: in the store, especially as a supervisors, I don't just

878
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:02,839
Speaker 1: try and work as a worker. I like to have

879
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:05,959
Speaker 1: a friendly relationship and just have you know, a great

880
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:09,440
Speaker 1: environment because people I don't just see them as a

881
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:11,239
Speaker 1: person that brings in money. I see them as an

882
00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:13,440
Speaker 1: actual person. I care for them. I want to make

883
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:15,680
Speaker 1: sure they know that I'm there for them, even if

884
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 1: they don't have any training, even if they need extra help,

885
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:21,560
Speaker 1: like whatever they need. I'm not going to judge them.

886
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:25,520
Speaker 1: I'm not going to just throw them in like just

887
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:28,719
Speaker 1: too much stuff has happened and I just wish I

888
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:32,560
Speaker 1: could be there. Now. Can you explain there's a process

889
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:34,799
Speaker 1: in place that may lead to you being reinstated in

890
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:36,920
Speaker 1: your job? First of all, are you hoping that that happens?

891
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 1: And second of all, can you just walk people through

892
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:43,200
Speaker 1: what has happened and what that process looks like. Yeah,

893
00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:48,080
Speaker 1: definitely I would love to be reinstated. I think my

894
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:53,520
Speaker 1: biggest thing is being reinstated will show everyone that Starbucks

895
00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:56,320
Speaker 1: what they did is wrong and they're not getting away

896
00:47:56,360 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 1: with it. And the process with me. Basically June eighth,

897
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:06,160
Speaker 1: I have a federal court injunction. It's the first case

898
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:09,800
Speaker 1: that went to the federal court. And now the Menhi seven,

899
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:16,000
Speaker 1: which were seven workers from a organizing committee that all

900
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:21,759
Speaker 1: got fired. Theirs is now June ninth, So basically for

901
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:27,480
Speaker 1: US eight, I guess we all are going to go

902
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:32,560
Speaker 1: to court and testify against Starbucks, and hopefully they're found guilty.

903
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 1: Hopefully the judge finds all the information we have against

904
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:40,480
Speaker 1: them that you know, they did a legal union busting,

905
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:44,160
Speaker 1: and hopefully that leads to all the other fired workers

906
00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:48,560
Speaker 1: or anyone that may be the next fired worker for

907
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:54,880
Speaker 1: that to stop happening or something to get resolved. Because Starbucks,

908
00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:58,560
Speaker 1: no matter how many, no matter how many cases there are,

909
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:01,920
Speaker 1: I don't think Howard's is going to stop. Yeah, I

910
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:03,560
Speaker 1: think that as well a stead And you said something

911
00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:06,160
Speaker 1: that was really important, which is that you know, there's

912
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:08,640
Speaker 1: been this kind of mindset that, like ah food service,

913
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:10,440
Speaker 1: you just what can you do? It's never going to

914
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:13,879
Speaker 1: be unionized. It's impossible, the turnovers too great, there's all

915
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 1: these barriers. And it's why what you all have done

916
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 1: is so extraordinary because you've proven that to be wrong.

917
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:22,640
Speaker 1: You provided a successful model that really took off like

918
00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:25,160
Speaker 1: wildfire fire across the country. I think your store was

919
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:28,520
Speaker 1: one of the early ones to first vote to unionize.

920
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:30,719
Speaker 1: And now this number isn't even up to date, but

921
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:32,520
Speaker 1: we had this is as of yesterday. Let's go ahead

922
00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:34,960
Speaker 1: and throw this up on the screen. There are now

923
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:40,360
Speaker 1: eighty plus Starbucks stores across the country, fifty six different

924
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:42,560
Speaker 1: cities and twenty two different states. As I said, after

925
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:45,440
Speaker 1: I saw this map, I saw a couple more successful

926
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:48,959
Speaker 1: unionization efforts go through. So this isn't even up to date.

927
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 1: But what do you think it is? What sparked this?

928
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:56,279
Speaker 1: What touched a nerve for you personally? Why has it

929
00:49:56,320 --> 00:50:00,520
Speaker 1: gained such incredible momentum when for years and years years

930
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:03,560
Speaker 1: it was the case that food services was just almost

931
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 1: an impossible barrier in terms of unionization efforts. I definitely

932
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:14,640
Speaker 1: think COVID nineteen that pandemic, even though it's still going on,

933
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:19,040
Speaker 1: I think the start of it is really what pushed

934
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:23,640
Speaker 1: everyone to realize that. I mean, they've been getting treated

935
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:27,640
Speaker 1: bad since the start, but now there's a whole global

936
00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:32,680
Speaker 1: pandemic and they still are treating people the exact same,

937
00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:37,920
Speaker 1: just because they choose profit over people. So I think

938
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:44,680
Speaker 1: that just for me, what pushed me is I started

939
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:48,920
Speaker 1: working at Starbucks almost about three years ago. I just

940
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:53,719
Speaker 1: turned seventeen, and I just wanted to get a job,

941
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:58,400
Speaker 1: and I basically was thrown into everything. But I didn't

942
00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:02,040
Speaker 1: know if it was right was wrong. It always seemed wrong.

943
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:05,400
Speaker 1: It seemed like I was just getting thrown into the

944
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:09,560
Speaker 1: fire and no one really cared. But as I grow,

945
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:13,879
Speaker 1: I grew and I developed, and I learned, and then

946
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:18,720
Speaker 1: COVID hit, and then eventually I got my own health problems. Meanwhile,

947
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:23,719
Speaker 1: my family has THEIRS. I realized I was just a

948
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:27,600
Speaker 1: body to them because I wanted to work part time

949
00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 1: as a supervisor for a month since I just got

950
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:33,719
Speaker 1: out of the hospital and I also still have college,

951
00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:37,239
Speaker 1: and then my dad's just getting a kidney transplant and

952
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:39,920
Speaker 1: my mom has cancer, so I have a lot going on.

953
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:44,040
Speaker 1: But they basically said, no, you have to demote yourself

954
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:47,880
Speaker 1: or you have to transfer. So it made me feel like,

955
00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:51,160
Speaker 1: so I have to be a full time student and

956
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:55,480
Speaker 1: a full time worker. It just I didn't feel right.

957
00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:59,480
Speaker 1: So that's when co leaders said to me when he

958
00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:02,279
Speaker 1: saw that I've been complaining. I've been standing up for

959
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:05,439
Speaker 1: everyone since my first manager went on the trash run

960
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:09,480
Speaker 1: and never came back. So I got dad when I

961
00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:12,120
Speaker 1: came to the Scottsdale and Mayo store, and we got

962
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:15,759
Speaker 1: a new manager. So the day I was told like,

963
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:18,520
Speaker 1: you have to transfer, demote yourself because you can't get

964
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:22,600
Speaker 1: that availability doesn't work within the Starbucks standards. That's when

965
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:26,520
Speaker 1: I talked to Bill Whitmey or my co leader, and said,

966
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:29,799
Speaker 1: I don't know what to do, And that's when he

967
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:32,240
Speaker 1: brought up the union, and that's how it really started

968
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:35,399
Speaker 1: for me. That's what really brought his push. I wish

969
00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:38,239
Speaker 1: I knew about this from the start, but I think

970
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:42,520
Speaker 1: for everyone it's I think COVID nineteen really showed everyone

971
00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:45,600
Speaker 1: that there's a whole global pandemic and they're still treating

972
00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:48,920
Speaker 1: us the exact same way. Yeah, so their rhetoric about oh,

973
00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:51,920
Speaker 1: you're an essential worker didn't even come close to matching

974
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:54,480
Speaker 1: up with the reality you were experiencing on a day

975
00:52:54,520 --> 00:52:57,480
Speaker 1: to day. Leila. We've been following your story. It's an

976
00:52:57,480 --> 00:52:58,920
Speaker 1: honor to get to talk to you today. We're going

977
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:01,319
Speaker 1: to keep following it and pay close attention to what

978
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:03,880
Speaker 1: happens in court on what you say. June seventh, ju

979
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:08,200
Speaker 1: Naith Juneith. All right, thanks Lea. Let us now give

980
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:12,400
Speaker 1: us an update. Great to see Leila. Thank you, and

981
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:14,080
Speaker 1: thank you guys so much for watching. We'll have more

982
00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:15,880
Speaker 1: for you later. All right, guys, it is time for

983
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:19,560
Speaker 1: our weekly partnership segment with the lever and joining us

984
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:22,680
Speaker 1: to discuss his latest reporting. Is a journalist for that outlet,

985
00:53:22,680 --> 00:53:26,480
Speaker 1: Andrew Perez, Great Caesar, thanks for having me so your

986
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:28,800
Speaker 1: partner in crime there. David Sarota kind of got into

987
00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:32,240
Speaker 1: it with some folks at the Washington Post over Jeff

988
00:53:32,239 --> 00:53:36,359
Speaker 1: Bezos's ownership. It all started in my understanding, you can

989
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:39,520
Speaker 1: correct me if I'm wrong when Bezos tweeted something he

990
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:43,080
Speaker 1: quote tweeted a Joe Biden quote. Biden had tweeted, you

991
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:45,800
Speaker 1: want to bring down inflation, Let's make sure the wealthiest

992
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:50,600
Speaker 1: corporations pay their fair share. Bezos's take was the newly

993
00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:53,960
Speaker 1: created Disinformation Board should review this tweet, or maybe they

994
00:53:53,960 --> 00:53:57,680
Speaker 1: need to form a new non sequitor board instead. Raising

995
00:53:57,680 --> 00:54:01,719
Speaker 1: corporate taxes is fine to discuss. Taming inflation is critical

996
00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:06,000
Speaker 1: to discuss. Mushing them together is just misdirection. So this

997
00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:09,840
Speaker 1: is Bezos weigh in on Twitter with his public policy views.

998
00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:15,279
Speaker 1: What happened from there? Andrew Sure David also got into

999
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:21,279
Speaker 1: it with another with the Washington Post columnist who Bezos

1000
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:27,080
Speaker 1: shared her recent column basically downplaying the idea that the

1001
00:54:27,640 --> 00:54:30,719
Speaker 1: corporate profiteering is responsible in any way for inflation and

1002
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:34,279
Speaker 1: slaming Democrats for doing so, and David said, you know,

1003
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:36,440
Speaker 1: these two things combined and kind of just show you that,

1004
00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:41,080
Speaker 1: you know, Bezos is showing his editorial team what he

1005
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:44,239
Speaker 1: wants right here, and you know some of them are

1006
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:47,440
Speaker 1: you know, really kind of following through already. And it

1007
00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:51,319
Speaker 1: was not taken kindly. Yeah, well, I mean, let's talk

1008
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:54,319
Speaker 1: a little bit about this because I remember back when

1009
00:54:54,560 --> 00:54:58,360
Speaker 1: Bernie Sanders suggested that perhaps the Washington Post economic coverage

1010
00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:00,799
Speaker 1: might be influenced by the ownership. There was this whole

1011
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:03,600
Speaker 1: like melt down. Oh my god, how cay do you

1012
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:06,560
Speaker 1: suggest such a thing? That's so crazy? But when it's

1013
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:11,080
Speaker 1: a billionaire whose ideology liberals are less comfortable with Elon Musk,

1014
00:55:11,160 --> 00:55:14,040
Speaker 1: they see very clearly that there's a problem with him

1015
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:16,600
Speaker 1: having ownership of Twitter, which is, you know, in some

1016
00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:18,960
Speaker 1: ways is a publishing platform on its own and him,

1017
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:21,320
Speaker 1: you know, putting out there to the world what his

1018
00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:24,200
Speaker 1: views are, and how that can lead to a stifling

1019
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:26,920
Speaker 1: effect and a problem with with free speech and ability

1020
00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:29,880
Speaker 1: to cover the news properly. So why has there been

1021
00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:33,040
Speaker 1: such a blind spot here when it comes to Bezos,

1022
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:36,600
Speaker 1: oftentimes the richest man on the planet owning one of

1023
00:55:36,680 --> 00:55:41,359
Speaker 1: our foremost journalistic institutions in this country. Yeah, I think

1024
00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:45,200
Speaker 1: it has to do with the Washington Post brand. It's

1025
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:47,560
Speaker 1: you know, it is it is a highly reputable paper,

1026
00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:50,320
Speaker 1: and you know, no one, no one would would question that.

1027
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:53,160
Speaker 1: But you know, I think the truth is, we really

1028
00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:56,640
Speaker 1: have no way of knowing what the editorial process there

1029
00:55:56,719 --> 00:56:00,919
Speaker 1: looks like or what kind of influenced that Bezos has.

1030
00:56:02,239 --> 00:56:04,200
Speaker 1: You know, I think what we know is that, like

1031
00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:06,759
Speaker 1: Bezos has been pretty upfront about why he bought the Post,

1032
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:10,239
Speaker 1: he wanted a newspaper in the capital city in the

1033
00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:12,120
Speaker 1: most important country of the world. That's what he said

1034
00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:15,719
Speaker 1: a few years ago. But you know, the truth is,

1035
00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:20,800
Speaker 1: we we do kind of know generally that that media

1036
00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:23,520
Speaker 1: owners like where their influence is felt, that if it

1037
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:27,680
Speaker 1: is at all, is in the opinion section. You know,

1038
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:31,120
Speaker 1: we weren't that with Mike Bloomberg's twenty twenty presidential run,

1039
00:56:31,239 --> 00:56:33,240
Speaker 1: we were we all got to learn that he actually

1040
00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:37,120
Speaker 1: that the opinion section of Bloomberg had long represented his views.

1041
00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:40,640
Speaker 1: But you know, I think on a general level, like

1042
00:56:41,160 --> 00:56:45,120
Speaker 1: you know, obviously, like media ownership does have some influence here, right,

1043
00:56:45,160 --> 00:56:48,719
Speaker 1: and it's it's probably mostly felt in like who's hired, right, Like,

1044
00:56:48,840 --> 00:56:51,319
Speaker 1: the people that that are hired at these outlets are

1045
00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:53,479
Speaker 1: brought there for a reason. It's because they share views

1046
00:56:53,600 --> 00:56:57,279
Speaker 1: that you know, that that the company does itself. And

1047
00:56:57,560 --> 00:56:59,439
Speaker 1: you know, if there ever was any kind of question

1048
00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:03,200
Speaker 1: about other Bezos is kind of injecting his ideological preferences

1049
00:57:03,239 --> 00:57:07,759
Speaker 1: into the news, you know, like it would probably happen

1050
00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:11,160
Speaker 1: with him posting on Twitter exactly what his preferences are,

1051
00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:14,800
Speaker 1: you know, basically saying that it's wrong for Democrats to

1052
00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:18,560
Speaker 1: focus on corporate profiteering and touting his you know, one

1053
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:21,360
Speaker 1: of his calmness has been who's been doing just that? Yeah,

1054
00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:25,560
Speaker 1: So this calumnist happens to back his view that, oh,

1055
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:28,920
Speaker 1: nothing to see here on corporate profiteering and inflation, and

1056
00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:31,920
Speaker 1: he elevates her, and that's a sort of reward in

1057
00:57:32,040 --> 00:57:35,680
Speaker 1: and of itself. She's getting affirmation that the guy who

1058
00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:38,439
Speaker 1: runs the joint loves what you're doing. So of course

1059
00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:41,200
Speaker 1: that's going to continue not only her, encourage her in

1060
00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:44,520
Speaker 1: that same direction, but encourage other calumnists who also want

1061
00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:46,880
Speaker 1: this sort of prey showered on them from Jeff Bezos

1062
00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:49,800
Speaker 1: to continue in that direction as well. Speak of the

1063
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:53,000
Speaker 1: substance here because there has been this sort of organized

1064
00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:58,480
Speaker 1: effort to erase the impact of corporate profiteering on inflation.

1065
00:57:58,760 --> 00:58:00,440
Speaker 1: And I don't think that anyone is saying that's the

1066
00:58:00,720 --> 00:58:03,080
Speaker 1: only story of what's going on here. When we're coming

1067
00:58:03,120 --> 00:58:05,000
Speaker 1: out of a pandemic and you have supply chain issues,

1068
00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:08,080
Speaker 1: you have new lockdowns in China, you have the war

1069
00:58:08,160 --> 00:58:11,040
Speaker 1: in Ukraine. Certainly there are a lot of factors going

1070
00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:13,959
Speaker 1: on here, but when you look at the numbers, there's

1071
00:58:14,120 --> 00:58:17,840
Speaker 1: just no doubt that, especially companies that have monopoly pricing power,

1072
00:58:18,200 --> 00:58:22,320
Speaker 1: are using inflation as an excuse to further raise their prices.

1073
00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:26,720
Speaker 1: Some of these CEOs are outright admitting it on their

1074
00:58:27,440 --> 00:58:30,960
Speaker 1: investor calls. So speak to the substance here of the

1075
00:58:31,080 --> 00:58:33,640
Speaker 1: issue that she and Bezos are trying to say, No, no, no,

1076
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:37,280
Speaker 1: that's not the problem at all. Yeah. Yeah, So, you know,

1077
00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:42,680
Speaker 1: the Economic Policy Institute did a study on this just

1078
00:58:42,760 --> 00:58:45,680
Speaker 1: a few weeks ago, and the data that they produced

1079
00:58:45,680 --> 00:58:48,720
Speaker 1: has just been completely ignored by all the kind of

1080
00:58:48,800 --> 00:58:51,280
Speaker 1: punt is weighing in here, from Katherin Rample at the

1081
00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:55,520
Speaker 1: Washington Post to Matt Iglesias as well as like economists

1082
00:58:55,760 --> 00:58:59,280
Speaker 1: like Larry Summers and Jason Furman. What the Economic Policy

1083
00:58:59,320 --> 00:59:01,760
Speaker 1: Institute found was that more than half of the price

1084
00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:05,160
Speaker 1: increases that that Americans are seeing right now can be

1085
00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:09,360
Speaker 1: attributed to larger corporate profit margins. And there was actually

1086
00:59:09,640 --> 00:59:13,440
Speaker 1: a federal Boston Federal Reserve analysis that was released a

1087
00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:17,240
Speaker 1: few days ago where they found that that that actually

1088
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:22,200
Speaker 1: that like corporate concentration could be amplifying the inflation that

1089
00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:26,280
Speaker 1: we're seeing right now. You know, there's also been just

1090
00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:28,680
Speaker 1: just a few days ago, there was a there was

1091
00:59:28,720 --> 00:59:31,920
Speaker 1: a report in more Perfect Union about how Tyson Foods

1092
00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:36,040
Speaker 1: had basically had actually put together like an investor presentation

1093
00:59:36,240 --> 00:59:39,120
Speaker 1: showing that that they had experienced, you know, one point

1094
00:59:39,160 --> 00:59:42,360
Speaker 1: five billion dollars in higher costs over the last quarter

1095
00:59:42,760 --> 00:59:45,360
Speaker 1: and that they'd raised prices in a corresponding moved by

1096
00:59:45,360 --> 00:59:48,800
Speaker 1: two billion dollars, which which means that consumers were just

1097
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:53,440
Speaker 1: feeling another five hundred million dollars in costs and they

1098
00:59:53,480 --> 00:59:55,120
Speaker 1: were you know, they were able to do that because

1099
00:59:55,160 --> 00:59:59,280
Speaker 1: they are one of four giant meatpacking firms, right and

1100
00:59:59,640 --> 01:00:02,520
Speaker 1: that's you know, that's an industry that has been that

1101
01:00:02,640 --> 01:00:05,560
Speaker 1: has been targeted by the Biden administration or at least

1102
01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:09,480
Speaker 1: has been has been a focus of THEIRS, so it's there.

1103
01:00:09,840 --> 01:00:13,400
Speaker 1: Definitely is some pressure right now or some of the

1104
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:15,560
Speaker 1: inflation that we're feeling right now is certainly due to

1105
01:00:15,600 --> 01:00:18,440
Speaker 1: corporate profits and seeing that, you know, scoffing at that

1106
01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:22,120
Speaker 1: idea is just completely insane. Yeah, but if you write

1107
01:00:22,280 --> 01:00:27,080
Speaker 1: that column about how corporate profits are contributing, you know

1108
01:00:27,240 --> 01:00:29,720
Speaker 1: for sure you're not going to get retweeted by Jeff Bezos.

1109
01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:33,240
Speaker 1: So there's less incentive in that direction to expose that

1110
01:00:33,280 --> 01:00:35,320
Speaker 1: part of the problem. Andrew Praz thank you so much,

1111
01:00:35,320 --> 01:00:38,560
Speaker 1: as always, very great reporting. Thank you, yeah, our pleasure,

1112
01:00:38,840 --> 01:00:40,400
Speaker 1: and thank you guys so much for watching. A lot

1113
01:00:40,480 --> 01:00:45,080
Speaker 1: more for you later here with Ken Clippenstein again for

1114
01:00:45,120 --> 01:00:48,200
Speaker 1: another segment of the Intercept on Breaking Points. Thank you

1115
01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:51,800
Speaker 1: guys for supporting Breaking Points which facilitates this partnership. We

1116
01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:55,240
Speaker 1: want to talk about this week's elections. So it followed

1117
01:00:55,280 --> 01:01:01,320
Speaker 1: on a brutal week for the Democratic establishment previously where

1118
01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:05,680
Speaker 1: Summer Lee whipped up on Steve Irwin in Pittsburgh despite

1119
01:01:05,760 --> 01:01:09,880
Speaker 1: millions of dollars spent to support Steve Irwin. Jamie McLeod

1120
01:01:09,920 --> 01:01:14,200
Speaker 1: Skinner whooped on Kerk Schrader out in Oregon despite a

1121
01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:17,840
Speaker 1: big farmer running a super pack on his behalf. The

1122
01:01:17,920 --> 01:01:20,720
Speaker 1: crypto guys. There were two crypto guys running in Oregon

1123
01:01:20,800 --> 01:01:24,440
Speaker 1: sixth district. They both lost to a Progressive caucus back

1124
01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:30,560
Speaker 1: to candidate Andrea Selinas Fetterman from the Hospital Smoked Connor Lamb.

1125
01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:34,800
Speaker 1: Bad week all around for the kind of faction of

1126
01:01:34,840 --> 01:01:38,160
Speaker 1: the party that's been trying to slow down the Democratic

1127
01:01:38,200 --> 01:01:41,000
Speaker 1: Party from doing more while they have their majority. So

1128
01:01:41,440 --> 01:01:43,640
Speaker 1: or if you listen to Thomas Freeman, who's saving the party,

1129
01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:46,680
Speaker 1: who's saving the party? Yes, our only hope of staying

1130
01:01:46,680 --> 01:01:49,200
Speaker 1: in power, only hope is to do less. And so

1131
01:01:49,800 --> 01:01:52,920
Speaker 1: the do less faction was up on the ballot box again.

1132
01:01:53,440 --> 01:01:56,600
Speaker 1: Two members of the so called Unbreakable Nine. This was

1133
01:01:57,080 --> 01:02:00,840
Speaker 1: Josh Gottheimer's group of nine House democh who teamed up

1134
01:02:00,840 --> 01:02:04,040
Speaker 1: with Mansion in Cinema to basically try to derail build

1135
01:02:04,120 --> 01:02:07,440
Speaker 1: back better. Two of them, Carolyn Bordeaux and Georgia and

1136
01:02:07,640 --> 01:02:12,920
Speaker 1: Henry Quaar in Texas, were on the ballot box. Film Vela,

1137
01:02:13,320 --> 01:02:16,440
Speaker 1: who was also part of the Nine, a Texas Democrat,

1138
01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:20,600
Speaker 1: was not up for reelection because he is already a lobbyist,

1139
01:02:21,280 --> 01:02:23,760
Speaker 1: so he announced last year that he was going to

1140
01:02:23,840 --> 01:02:26,320
Speaker 1: retire at the end of his term, and then in

1141
01:02:26,440 --> 01:02:29,440
Speaker 1: March he announced, actually, you know what I'm done now,

1142
01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:32,520
Speaker 1: because there's now a cooling off period that you can't

1143
01:02:32,920 --> 01:02:35,640
Speaker 1: directly lobby your colleagues for a certain amount of time

1144
01:02:35,760 --> 01:02:38,520
Speaker 1: after you leave. So he just sped it up by

1145
01:02:38,560 --> 01:02:39,960
Speaker 1: saying you know what I'm done in March, and by

1146
01:02:40,040 --> 01:02:43,240
Speaker 1: April he was at Aiken Gump, which is one of

1147
01:02:43,280 --> 01:02:47,040
Speaker 1: the biggest lobbying shops in Washington. He can't technically lobby yet,

1148
01:02:47,560 --> 01:02:50,320
Speaker 1: but he can give strategic advice, he can give consulting,

1149
01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:54,120
Speaker 1: he can have lunches. Basically he can lobby, but it

1150
01:02:54,400 --> 01:02:58,040
Speaker 1: allows him to start making that money much earlier. And

1151
01:02:58,480 --> 01:03:00,560
Speaker 1: he's going to probably give up a seat to a

1152
01:03:00,640 --> 01:03:04,360
Speaker 1: Republican in a June special election. Just absolutely perfect, because

1153
01:03:04,920 --> 01:03:07,960
Speaker 1: you know, progressives constantly getting told that they're not good

1154
01:03:08,000 --> 01:03:11,320
Speaker 1: deep players, and this is what we got. So Carolen

1155
01:03:11,360 --> 01:03:14,800
Speaker 1: Bordo wiped out by Lucy macbeth, and we can talk

1156
01:03:14,800 --> 01:03:16,120
Speaker 1: about that one in a second. We're gonna get your

1157
01:03:16,120 --> 01:03:21,960
Speaker 1: take on Henry quaar nra backed anti abortion Democrat and

1158
01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:26,280
Speaker 1: Jim Clyburn and Nancy Pelosi and Reid Hoffman of LinkedIn

1159
01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:31,600
Speaker 1: and the APAC come in just storming into the race

1160
01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:38,480
Speaker 1: to throw everything they have to defend Quaar, and it

1161
01:03:38,560 --> 01:03:41,080
Speaker 1: looks like Quaar is probably going to win once all

1162
01:03:41,120 --> 01:03:43,640
Speaker 1: the votes are tallied. What does it say about the

1163
01:03:43,800 --> 01:03:47,200
Speaker 1: Democratic Party leadership that they have this much enthusiasm to

1164
01:03:47,280 --> 01:03:51,280
Speaker 1: defend somebody like Quaar in this moment. Well, this is

1165
01:03:51,320 --> 01:03:53,960
Speaker 1: going to be one of the most awkward primaries for

1166
01:03:54,120 --> 01:04:00,440
Speaker 1: them in maybe in my memory, because Wade I the

1167
01:04:00,680 --> 01:04:04,000
Speaker 1: horrible mass shooting, and this person who is just you know,

1168
01:04:04,160 --> 01:04:07,360
Speaker 1: whatever criticism you have of the Democratic Party, he's way

1169
01:04:07,480 --> 01:04:11,480
Speaker 1: out the extreme beyond pretty much everyone else. The Reid

1170
01:04:11,520 --> 01:04:14,600
Speaker 1: Hoffman's pack super pac that defended him spent seven hundred

1171
01:04:14,600 --> 01:04:18,080
Speaker 1: and fifty k on him, is called mainstream Democrats, pro

1172
01:04:18,360 --> 01:04:22,640
Speaker 1: NRA and pro life, anti choice, the only pro Democrat, right, Yeah,

1173
01:04:22,720 --> 01:04:25,480
Speaker 1: that's not mainstream. That's not mainstream Democrats, right. And so

1174
01:04:25,600 --> 01:04:28,600
Speaker 1: now they're in a position party leadership Nancy Pelosi, Cliburne

1175
01:04:28,960 --> 01:04:32,040
Speaker 1: and others of having to say, you know, this not

1176
01:04:32,200 --> 01:04:34,640
Speaker 1: only was the you know, morally right course of action,

1177
01:04:34,920 --> 01:04:37,920
Speaker 1: but it was a pragmatically smart one to endorse this

1178
01:04:37,960 --> 01:04:41,320
Speaker 1: guy who was under FBI investigation. Yeah, let's let's talk

1179
01:04:41,320 --> 01:04:44,959
Speaker 1: about that. So he has said he's actually telling people

1180
01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:48,240
Speaker 1: he's been cleared. That's not true. What was it a

1181
01:04:48,360 --> 01:04:51,000
Speaker 1: pack that he distributed to look like a news Yeah,

1182
01:04:51,160 --> 01:04:54,560
Speaker 1: he crafted a newspaper that says Quay are clear as

1183
01:04:54,600 --> 01:04:58,480
Speaker 1: supporters were and allies were handing out this. Yeah. But

1184
01:04:59,120 --> 01:05:03,000
Speaker 1: what they're referring too is there was his attorney. Quaar's

1185
01:05:03,000 --> 01:05:06,640
Speaker 1: attorney told like the San Antonio paper that the FBI

1186
01:05:06,800 --> 01:05:10,200
Speaker 1: had told them that they are quote not a target now,

1187
01:05:10,400 --> 01:05:13,360
Speaker 1: being not a first of all, that's his attorney saying

1188
01:05:13,440 --> 01:05:16,400
Speaker 1: that FBI is not commenting on this. Second of all,

1189
01:05:16,800 --> 01:05:20,840
Speaker 1: being not a target doesn't mean you still won't go down,

1190
01:05:21,040 --> 01:05:23,960
Speaker 1: and it also doesn't mean you've been cleared. The FBI

1191
01:05:24,080 --> 01:05:26,760
Speaker 1: just generally doesn't clear people. And somebody's covering the for

1192
01:05:26,760 --> 01:05:29,960
Speaker 1: a number of years, not famously known for their candor

1193
01:05:30,160 --> 01:05:32,360
Speaker 1: or who's being investigated because they don't want people to know.

1194
01:05:32,960 --> 01:05:36,320
Speaker 1: He says he's cooperating fully with the investigation. How often

1195
01:05:36,760 --> 01:05:40,520
Speaker 1: does somebody's home get raided when they're fully cooperating. It's

1196
01:05:40,560 --> 01:05:43,560
Speaker 1: not something it's not something you see very routinely. Yeah,

1197
01:05:43,720 --> 01:05:45,520
Speaker 1: so they went into his house with the war, with

1198
01:05:45,640 --> 01:05:48,600
Speaker 1: the warrants, with the windbreakers. They did, they did that

1199
01:05:48,680 --> 01:05:53,280
Speaker 1: whole thing. That was in January. In March he qualifies

1200
01:05:53,360 --> 01:05:56,800
Speaker 1: for the runoff with Cisnaro's now he's now he's up

1201
01:05:56,840 --> 01:06:00,080
Speaker 1: in the general election. This was the the could the

1202
01:06:00,200 --> 01:06:05,800
Speaker 1: investigation appears to be around, and it's so bizarre. Azerbaijani

1203
01:06:06,480 --> 01:06:10,320
Speaker 1: corruption at one one corrupt oil state to another corrupt

1204
01:06:10,360 --> 01:06:12,680
Speaker 1: oil state. He took a trip with his wife to

1205
01:06:12,760 --> 01:06:15,320
Speaker 1: Azerbaijan that we know at least one that we know about,

1206
01:06:15,360 --> 01:06:18,360
Speaker 1: that costs something like twenty thousand dollars. It appears that

1207
01:06:18,480 --> 01:06:22,560
Speaker 1: that was paid for by the Azerbaijan government. He claims

1208
01:06:22,600 --> 01:06:24,560
Speaker 1: that he doesn't know that that was the case, that

1209
01:06:24,680 --> 01:06:26,920
Speaker 1: he that it was the state run oil company or

1210
01:06:26,920 --> 01:06:29,360
Speaker 1: whatever that was. But the state run oil company was

1211
01:06:29,400 --> 01:06:33,200
Speaker 1: funneling the money through another organization. All of it was

1212
01:06:35,200 --> 01:06:37,280
Speaker 1: just looked corrupt on its face, like the idea that

1213
01:06:37,320 --> 01:06:40,240
Speaker 1: it wasn't is bizarre. Let me add one more thing

1214
01:06:41,120 --> 01:06:45,920
Speaker 1: from having covered the FBI, they're extremely sensitive to questions

1215
01:06:45,960 --> 01:06:47,960
Speaker 1: of political optics. They don't want to be in a

1216
01:06:48,000 --> 01:06:50,840
Speaker 1: situation where they're not cased to forest around with. Not

1217
01:06:50,840 --> 01:06:52,640
Speaker 1: only are they're not supposed to. They really don't like to,

1218
01:06:52,840 --> 01:06:54,880
Speaker 1: like right before the election exactly in order for them

1219
01:06:54,880 --> 01:06:57,080
Speaker 1: to launch. The bar that you have to clear when

1220
01:06:57,120 --> 01:06:58,760
Speaker 1: you and when I talked to some of these investigators,

1221
01:06:58,760 --> 01:07:02,200
Speaker 1: they describe anything political sensitive, like for example, the Project

1222
01:07:02,280 --> 01:07:04,800
Speaker 1: Veritis investiation or something right put into what's called a

1223
01:07:04,840 --> 01:07:07,800
Speaker 1: special investigative manner and they lock that thing down so

1224
01:07:07,920 --> 01:07:09,920
Speaker 1: that only a very small number of people can see it.

1225
01:07:10,400 --> 01:07:14,080
Speaker 1: The point of this being that again they are very

1226
01:07:14,200 --> 01:07:17,440
Speaker 1: sensitive to to not not wanting to seem like they are,

1227
01:07:18,880 --> 01:07:22,000
Speaker 1: you know, interfering in any sort of fashion with with

1228
01:07:22,200 --> 01:07:24,320
Speaker 1: the with with either of the parties that they depend

1229
01:07:24,400 --> 01:07:27,720
Speaker 1: on for funding each year, you know. So so again

1230
01:07:27,760 --> 01:07:29,840
Speaker 1: the bar that you have to clear to to you know,

1231
01:07:30,240 --> 01:07:33,280
Speaker 1: release an investment, do conductor raid like that that close

1232
01:07:33,320 --> 01:07:35,880
Speaker 1: to an election is really extraordinary. And whichever way the

1233
01:07:36,000 --> 01:07:38,120
Speaker 1: race ends up breaking, it's going to be one hundred

1234
01:07:38,200 --> 01:07:42,320
Speaker 1: or two hundred votes, and without the intervention of the

1235
01:07:42,400 --> 01:07:45,360
Speaker 1: party leadership, it just seems like there's no way that

1236
01:07:45,800 --> 01:07:49,000
Speaker 1: Quaar comes out, which AOC AOC seemed to hint at

1237
01:07:49,000 --> 01:07:51,280
Speaker 1: in a tweet, which is really incredible. She just came

1238
01:07:51,320 --> 01:07:54,160
Speaker 1: out and said what was it. She said, party leadership

1239
01:07:54,280 --> 01:07:58,720
Speaker 1: acts as I'm paraphrasing, incumbent protection racket. How often do

1240
01:07:58,760 --> 01:08:01,200
Speaker 1: you hear something like that from right either party? You know?

1241
01:08:01,520 --> 01:08:03,600
Speaker 1: And she made the point that if they succeed in

1242
01:08:03,720 --> 01:08:07,560
Speaker 1: doing this, they will have suppressed all this grassroots energy

1243
01:08:07,680 --> 01:08:11,360
Speaker 1: and all they did was then force a you know,

1244
01:08:11,680 --> 01:08:15,080
Speaker 1: pro n RA, a anti choice Democrat into the general

1245
01:08:15,120 --> 01:08:18,920
Speaker 1: election over the objections of these of the primary voters.

1246
01:08:19,040 --> 01:08:23,080
Speaker 1: And if they fail, they they look terrible as well

1247
01:08:23,320 --> 01:08:26,519
Speaker 1: in an electoral environment in which it seems that the

1248
01:08:27,080 --> 01:08:29,960
Speaker 1: insurgent candidates are doing really well, you know, I think

1249
01:08:30,040 --> 01:08:32,000
Speaker 1: there is right and the Republicans are just gonna hammer

1250
01:08:32,080 --> 01:08:34,920
Speaker 1: him for his FBI investigation, right like the whole the

1251
01:08:34,960 --> 01:08:39,120
Speaker 1: whole way through. So he's popular, So we'll see, but

1252
01:08:39,320 --> 01:08:41,360
Speaker 1: it's it's not a it's not a guarantee that he's

1253
01:08:41,400 --> 01:08:43,439
Speaker 1: going to win his election. YEA, real quickly, while we

1254
01:08:43,479 --> 01:08:48,360
Speaker 1: have time. The Carolyn Bordeaux races is fascinating because Georgia

1255
01:08:48,479 --> 01:08:51,320
Speaker 1: lost the seat and so in this in the census

1256
01:08:51,400 --> 01:08:55,880
Speaker 1: and so in the redistricting you have Lucy McBeth. These

1257
01:08:55,920 --> 01:08:58,599
Speaker 1: are two districts that are north of Atlanta. Lucy McBeth

1258
01:08:58,680 --> 01:09:00,479
Speaker 1: and one that's the one that John os Soff ran

1259
01:09:00,600 --> 01:09:03,400
Speaker 1: for lost but then Lucy macbeth won it. And then

1260
01:09:03,439 --> 01:09:07,240
Speaker 1: you have Carolen Bordeaux. So these are neighboring Democratic deserts.

1261
01:09:07,240 --> 01:09:12,040
Speaker 1: They both flipped red to blue. In twenty eighteen. Lucy macbeth,

1262
01:09:12,439 --> 01:09:17,719
Speaker 1: her son was murdered and was a victim of gun violence.

1263
01:09:18,280 --> 01:09:20,919
Speaker 1: And she has long had the support of Michael Bloomberg

1264
01:09:21,040 --> 01:09:26,479
Speaker 1: and his every Town Gun organization, and she also had

1265
01:09:26,640 --> 01:09:29,439
Speaker 1: the support of Democratic Majority for Israel, and she got

1266
01:09:29,520 --> 01:09:32,040
Speaker 1: some crypto money. So it's not as if this was

1267
01:09:32,320 --> 01:09:36,000
Speaker 1: a kind of squad versus centrist cannon. But Karen Bordeaux

1268
01:09:36,280 --> 01:09:39,760
Speaker 1: in the neighboring district during this build Back Better fight,

1269
01:09:39,840 --> 01:09:42,599
Speaker 1: during the Unbreakable Nine fights, she joined the Unbreakable Nine

1270
01:09:43,160 --> 01:09:45,880
Speaker 1: and the analysis back in Georgia and George Cheety talked

1271
01:09:45,880 --> 01:09:48,000
Speaker 1: about this, who writes for the Intercept kind of our

1272
01:09:48,040 --> 01:09:52,880
Speaker 1: Georgia correspondent. He said that it seemed like and what

1273
01:09:52,960 --> 01:09:56,439
Speaker 1: people assumed that she was doing is that everybody knew

1274
01:09:56,439 --> 01:09:58,840
Speaker 1: that there was there was gonna be one less seat

1275
01:09:59,560 --> 01:10:02,600
Speaker 1: and so one less Democratic seat, and so she was

1276
01:10:02,680 --> 01:10:06,360
Speaker 1: trying to signal both to centrist Democrats and also to

1277
01:10:06,560 --> 01:10:08,960
Speaker 1: Republicans that she was going to be the most right

1278
01:10:09,040 --> 01:10:12,919
Speaker 1: wing Democrat and so as the most right wing Democrat,

1279
01:10:13,000 --> 01:10:15,320
Speaker 1: they better not kind of come after her because she'll

1280
01:10:15,360 --> 01:10:20,320
Speaker 1: be the most electable against a Republican. Whereas Lucy McBath generally,

1281
01:10:21,000 --> 01:10:22,600
Speaker 1: despite all the different money she's getting a lot of

1282
01:10:22,600 --> 01:10:25,880
Speaker 1: different play generators, voted as a Democrat, mainline Democrat, like

1283
01:10:26,120 --> 01:10:28,320
Speaker 1: whatever the party was putting up, yeah, that's what she

1284
01:10:28,439 --> 01:10:31,120
Speaker 1: voted for. And so Bordeaux thought that she was kind

1285
01:10:31,120 --> 01:10:34,599
Speaker 1: of saving herself, and so in fact, they did end

1286
01:10:34,680 --> 01:10:39,599
Speaker 1: up eliminating Lucy Macbeth's district. Lucy McBath lives in Marietta, Georgia,

1287
01:10:39,720 --> 01:10:42,400
Speaker 1: was nowhere near the seventh, but she ran in the

1288
01:10:42,400 --> 01:10:44,400
Speaker 1: seventh anyway, because there's no law that says you have

1289
01:10:44,560 --> 01:10:47,280
Speaker 1: to live in the district to run there to represent it,

1290
01:10:48,160 --> 01:10:51,320
Speaker 1: and by all accounts, she didn't visit there a whole lot,

1291
01:10:52,120 --> 01:10:55,720
Speaker 1: but she had enough money to run ads And the

1292
01:10:55,800 --> 01:10:59,160
Speaker 1: party was just deeply frustrated, or the party electorate was

1293
01:10:59,200 --> 01:11:02,439
Speaker 1: just deeply frustrat with Bordeaux for screwing up build back

1294
01:11:02,479 --> 01:11:05,920
Speaker 1: Better and screwing up the Biden agenda and McBeth as

1295
01:11:05,960 --> 01:11:09,080
Speaker 1: a result, just annihilated her. So it would be one

1296
01:11:09,160 --> 01:11:12,439
Speaker 1: thing if Bordeaux went down for her principles and she

1297
01:11:12,560 --> 01:11:15,439
Speaker 1: was really against whatever is in Build Back Better, but

1298
01:11:16,000 --> 01:11:19,760
Speaker 1: she thought she was doing the clever play and it

1299
01:11:19,960 --> 01:11:22,519
Speaker 1: just got crushed. So me see to me is that

1300
01:11:22,640 --> 01:11:25,560
Speaker 1: the voters seem to be punishing, Yeah, this kind of

1301
01:11:25,720 --> 01:11:28,040
Speaker 1: behavior more than the party leadership, and they're undercutting the

1302
01:11:28,120 --> 01:11:32,080
Speaker 1: party's vision for the more for the entire presidency. Yeah. Yes,

1303
01:11:33,080 --> 01:11:35,559
Speaker 1: What the Democratic primary voters are showing is that they

1304
01:11:35,680 --> 01:11:40,519
Speaker 1: don't like that these centrist candidates have undermined the progress

1305
01:11:40,960 --> 01:11:42,960
Speaker 1: and that the Bide administration was making. Is if you

1306
01:11:43,000 --> 01:11:45,640
Speaker 1: go back and look at his approval rating from the

1307
01:11:45,760 --> 01:11:49,960
Speaker 1: first half of twenty twenty one, when he's doing a

1308
01:11:49,960 --> 01:11:55,599
Speaker 1: two trillion dollar rescue plan and basically, you know, sounds

1309
01:11:55,680 --> 01:12:00,599
Speaker 1: like Bernie Sanders is doing ventriloquism. Throw them. His brutal

1310
01:12:00,680 --> 01:12:03,720
Speaker 1: numbers are through the roof Ring, then Afghanistan, and the

1311
01:12:03,800 --> 01:12:06,120
Speaker 1: collapse of Build Back Better. Because if because even remember

1312
01:12:06,200 --> 01:12:10,320
Speaker 1: Build Back Better was killed in this brutal public fashion,

1313
01:12:10,560 --> 01:12:13,919
Speaker 1: that they would take every popular piece of it, elevate

1314
01:12:14,000 --> 01:12:16,600
Speaker 1: it to the public and say, hey, you like this

1315
01:12:17,439 --> 01:12:20,360
Speaker 1: child tax credit. This is really nice, isn't it. We're

1316
01:12:20,439 --> 01:12:23,120
Speaker 1: killing it? Hey, you like this climate money, you like this.

1317
01:12:23,720 --> 01:12:25,800
Speaker 1: And so it wasn't as if it was all done

1318
01:12:25,880 --> 01:12:27,639
Speaker 1: quietly behind it. It was like, here are all these

1319
01:12:27,680 --> 01:12:30,640
Speaker 1: popular things we could do, and then day after day

1320
01:12:30,640 --> 01:12:32,880
Speaker 1: after day the news would be, but we're not going

1321
01:12:32,960 --> 01:12:37,560
Speaker 1: to do it. And so now now there's talk that

1322
01:12:38,000 --> 01:12:42,120
Speaker 1: build back better is and I've got some reporting on

1323
01:12:42,160 --> 01:12:47,439
Speaker 1: this too, that Mansion is negotiating earnestly with Schumer, like

1324
01:12:48,080 --> 01:12:50,000
Speaker 1: and I'm curious what this, if this has to do

1325
01:12:50,200 --> 01:12:53,080
Speaker 1: with this slaughter that we're seeing this like, just do

1326
01:12:53,280 --> 01:12:57,000
Speaker 1: something right, and they're like, okay, fine, and classic because

1327
01:12:57,040 --> 01:12:58,840
Speaker 1: for months it had been it's dead. You know, I'm

1328
01:12:58,840 --> 01:13:02,000
Speaker 1: done when right wing back, it's of course classic that

1329
01:13:02,160 --> 01:13:06,400
Speaker 1: King Mansion announced that he's that it's still the responsibility

1330
01:13:06,400 --> 01:13:09,880
Speaker 1: of the party to get something done. From Davos. From

1331
01:13:09,920 --> 01:13:14,320
Speaker 1: an interview with Davos, Davos man deems that now it

1332
01:13:14,360 --> 01:13:17,080
Speaker 1: won't be the full three point five trillion. What they're

1333
01:13:17,120 --> 01:13:19,160
Speaker 1: talking about is like a five hundred and fifty billion,

1334
01:13:19,240 --> 01:13:22,360
Speaker 1: seven hundred billions so something, but it would be lower

1335
01:13:22,439 --> 01:13:25,000
Speaker 1: drug prices, it would mean climate money. It would mean,

1336
01:13:25,160 --> 01:13:28,000
Speaker 1: you know, taxes on private equity and the super rich.

1337
01:13:28,560 --> 01:13:30,720
Speaker 1: There's there's still good things that they can do, but

1338
01:13:30,840 --> 01:13:33,360
Speaker 1: the windows closing to get it done. What's what's your

1339
01:13:33,439 --> 01:13:35,760
Speaker 1: what's your guest? I don't like to do the forecasts here.

1340
01:13:36,880 --> 01:13:38,960
Speaker 1: Do you think this is just I mean, the smart

1341
01:13:38,960 --> 01:13:43,240
Speaker 1: money is always on Democrats doing nothing expailing. But what

1342
01:13:43,400 --> 01:13:45,840
Speaker 1: percentage would you put it at at this point? Oh gosh, well,

1343
01:13:45,920 --> 01:13:47,840
Speaker 1: it's certainly higher than it was in terms of, you know,

1344
01:13:48,000 --> 01:13:50,519
Speaker 1: something being able to happen, because I do. I mean,

1345
01:13:50,760 --> 01:13:54,080
Speaker 1: this is such a clear message, not just the primaries today,

1346
01:13:54,560 --> 01:13:57,320
Speaker 1: but the you know ones in the preceding weeks that

1347
01:13:57,880 --> 01:14:00,880
Speaker 1: again voters are tired of opening they would like something

1348
01:14:01,240 --> 01:14:04,240
Speaker 1: like something visionary to be pasted. So, you know, I

1349
01:14:04,280 --> 01:14:06,560
Speaker 1: think the probability is increasing, but you know, I'm not

1350
01:14:06,600 --> 01:14:09,439
Speaker 1: gonna I'm not gonna stake any hopes and in dreams

1351
01:14:09,520 --> 01:14:14,320
Speaker 1: and Joe Manchin, Yeah no, exactly. Well, ken as always,

1352
01:14:14,680 --> 01:14:17,519
Speaker 1: thanks for joining here, my pleasure. Anything good to plug.

1353
01:14:17,640 --> 01:14:21,280
Speaker 1: Let's I mean, we got deconstructed as the Intercepts podcast

1354
01:14:21,800 --> 01:14:26,160
Speaker 1: as well as Intercepted check check those out rising Fridays.

1355
01:14:26,200 --> 01:14:28,760
Speaker 1: I'm if people wondering why I'm here. I'm only doing

1356
01:14:28,880 --> 01:14:32,000
Speaker 1: Rising On on Fridays now with Emily J. Hinski. We'll

1357
01:14:32,000 --> 01:14:34,160
Speaker 1: have Ken on there as often as we can, as

1358
01:14:34,240 --> 01:14:37,880
Speaker 1: often as we can get him. What else Intercept dot

1359
01:14:37,960 --> 01:14:40,840
Speaker 1: com and keep watching Breaking Points, what else? Any anything

1360
01:14:40,880 --> 01:14:44,200
Speaker 1: else to plug? I mean, if you're a federal official,

1361
01:14:44,280 --> 01:14:46,360
Speaker 1: hit me up on signal. There you go, exactly. His

1362
01:14:46,479 --> 01:14:49,960
Speaker 1: signal is basically your pin tweeter and your bio. Yep,

1363
01:14:50,000 --> 01:14:52,840
Speaker 1: it's my Twitter bio. Excellent. All right, welcome back to

1364
01:14:53,000 --> 01:14:56,160
Speaker 1: the Intercept edition of Breaking Points here with Ken Klippenstein,

1365
01:14:56,240 --> 01:14:58,200
Speaker 1: and thank you guys for making this possible to people

1366
01:14:58,200 --> 01:15:01,800
Speaker 1: who contribute to Breaking Points have facilitated this partnership that

1367
01:15:01,840 --> 01:15:04,880
Speaker 1: we've been able to get off the ground and allow

1368
01:15:05,040 --> 01:15:08,240
Speaker 1: us to do some of this independent reporting and bring

1369
01:15:08,280 --> 01:15:11,920
Speaker 1: it to you today. Ken has multiple scoops in a

1370
01:15:12,240 --> 01:15:17,719
Speaker 1: single piece about the relationship between the US and Saudi Arabia,

1371
01:15:17,800 --> 01:15:21,519
Speaker 1: Saudi Arabia and Israel, Israel and the Palestinians, the Middle

1372
01:15:21,560 --> 01:15:26,040
Speaker 1: East and Iran, all of it coming together in the

1373
01:15:26,280 --> 01:15:30,080
Speaker 1: kind of creation of a new Abraham Accord. While nobody's

1374
01:15:30,120 --> 01:15:34,519
Speaker 1: watching it. It feels like the Biden administration is making

1375
01:15:34,640 --> 01:15:38,800
Speaker 1: history here in some ways by basically pushing forward with

1376
01:15:38,920 --> 01:15:43,519
Speaker 1: Jared Kushner's what I would say, catastrophic Middle East policy

1377
01:15:44,080 --> 01:15:50,000
Speaker 1: and basically cementing it in place and expanding it further.

1378
01:15:50,120 --> 01:15:52,360
Speaker 1: And there are so many different layers of what you

1379
01:15:52,560 --> 01:15:56,360
Speaker 1: of what you've reported here, but let's let's start with

1380
01:15:56,560 --> 01:16:01,160
Speaker 1: the US Saudi relationship. What did you what did you

1381
01:16:01,240 --> 01:16:05,599
Speaker 1: uncover about what's going on between US and Saudi Arabia

1382
01:16:05,680 --> 01:16:08,880
Speaker 1: right now? Yeah, So it was reported recently that President

1383
01:16:08,960 --> 01:16:11,559
Speaker 1: Biden intends to meet with MBS, which is a huge

1384
01:16:11,600 --> 01:16:13,880
Speaker 1: about face from how he campaigned. This is the crown

1385
01:16:13,960 --> 01:16:17,800
Speaker 1: prince who ordered the bone sawing of Jamal Kasoki. Yes,

1386
01:16:18,040 --> 01:16:21,719
Speaker 1: and who on whom you know? Biden ran in contrast

1387
01:16:21,760 --> 01:16:24,320
Speaker 1: to President Trump saying that I'm going to hold him accountable,

1388
01:16:24,320 --> 01:16:26,040
Speaker 1: going as far as saying that I'm going to make

1389
01:16:26,120 --> 01:16:28,479
Speaker 1: him a pariah, right, and I can't think of stronger

1390
01:16:28,560 --> 01:16:31,360
Speaker 1: language that the US has ever used for Sadi Arabia

1391
01:16:31,520 --> 01:16:33,960
Speaker 1: or and began by refusing to speak to him. He said,

1392
01:16:34,000 --> 01:16:36,439
Speaker 1: you're not the official ruler of Saudi Arabia. You can

1393
01:16:36,520 --> 01:16:39,320
Speaker 1: talk to my flunkies. I'm talking to the king, and

1394
01:16:40,200 --> 01:16:42,160
Speaker 1: MBS said cool. How do you like four dollars a

1395
01:16:42,240 --> 01:16:46,000
Speaker 1: gallon gas? Basically exactly, and that contributes to inflation, as

1396
01:16:46,040 --> 01:16:48,680
Speaker 1: we've written about, and this is a huge dimension to

1397
01:16:48,880 --> 01:16:51,080
Speaker 1: all of the economic problems that we're seeing right now

1398
01:16:51,160 --> 01:16:54,360
Speaker 1: that I think gets short shift in media reportage just

1399
01:16:54,400 --> 01:16:57,040
Speaker 1: because the Saudis and you know, like the Emiraties and

1400
01:16:57,080 --> 01:17:00,880
Speaker 1: other Persian Gulf nations have a very effective think tank

1401
01:17:00,880 --> 01:17:03,160
Speaker 1: Appradison Washington to make it so that you don't hear

1402
01:17:03,200 --> 01:17:05,360
Speaker 1: about these things. And I'm not saying it's the only factor,

1403
01:17:05,439 --> 01:17:08,240
Speaker 1: but it is a major factor behind, as you say,

1404
01:17:08,600 --> 01:17:11,840
Speaker 1: the gas prices that we're seeing, but also inflation. Oil

1405
01:17:11,920 --> 01:17:14,320
Speaker 1: factors into the price of everything, as we've discussed before

1406
01:17:14,360 --> 01:17:17,000
Speaker 1: on this show. And so you wrote about a recent

1407
01:17:17,200 --> 01:17:20,879
Speaker 1: very high level meeting to go over a classified fifteen

1408
01:17:20,960 --> 01:17:25,439
Speaker 1: page document that lays out a new strategy for a

1409
01:17:25,520 --> 01:17:28,360
Speaker 1: relationship with the Middle East. What were you able to

1410
01:17:28,479 --> 01:17:31,800
Speaker 1: learn about that classified document? Yeah, so it looks like

1411
01:17:32,320 --> 01:17:35,000
Speaker 1: the Biden administration or at least you know, prominent factions

1412
01:17:35,040 --> 01:17:37,200
Speaker 1: within it, because there are different groups that there are

1413
01:17:37,240 --> 01:17:39,160
Speaker 1: some that are not happy with what's going on, are

1414
01:17:39,200 --> 01:17:43,080
Speaker 1: pushing for normalization with Saudi Arabia. And so you know,

1415
01:17:43,120 --> 01:17:45,080
Speaker 1: when Biden goes and meets with him as he's as

1416
01:17:45,120 --> 01:17:47,439
Speaker 1: it's been reported he is going to do, that appears

1417
01:17:47,520 --> 01:17:50,240
Speaker 1: to be a part of a regional push to try

1418
01:17:50,280 --> 01:17:54,360
Speaker 1: to tighten bonds with RIOD. And so what I found

1419
01:17:54,439 --> 01:17:56,639
Speaker 1: over the course of the reporting and talking to people

1420
01:17:56,640 --> 01:17:59,360
Speaker 1: close to the administration and the intelligence community about what

1421
01:17:59,400 --> 01:18:01,679
Speaker 1: they're working on, it's very interesting they are going about

1422
01:18:01,680 --> 01:18:03,600
Speaker 1: this in a very quiet and secret of fashion. I

1423
01:18:03,680 --> 01:18:07,599
Speaker 1: reported recently on CI director William Burns travel to the region,

1424
01:18:07,720 --> 01:18:09,720
Speaker 1: not just Saturdaybia to meet with MBS for the first

1425
01:18:09,800 --> 01:18:11,439
Speaker 1: you know, known time that that has happened, but with

1426
01:18:11,560 --> 01:18:15,000
Speaker 1: other regional leaders MBZ the de facto ruler of the

1427
01:18:15,160 --> 01:18:18,240
Speaker 1: U actual ruler, yes, and that's right, and our actual

1428
01:18:18,280 --> 01:18:21,240
Speaker 1: ruler and in Cutter. And so the question then is

1429
01:18:21,360 --> 01:18:23,559
Speaker 1: why are they using the CIA director to conduct this. Well,

1430
01:18:23,600 --> 01:18:25,080
Speaker 1: that gives them a lot of discretion. That's what you

1431
01:18:25,160 --> 01:18:26,560
Speaker 1: do when you want to keep it quiet, when you

1432
01:18:26,600 --> 01:18:28,479
Speaker 1: don't want it to leak. And the question to me

1433
01:18:28,560 --> 01:18:29,840
Speaker 1: is why don't they want it to leak? I mean,

1434
01:18:29,880 --> 01:18:31,360
Speaker 1: when you talk to people close to thed miministration, what

1435
01:18:31,439 --> 01:18:34,839
Speaker 1: they'll tell you is because it's embarrassing. Right. The contours

1436
01:18:34,880 --> 01:18:37,799
Speaker 1: of this agreement, as you said before, are remarkably similar

1437
01:18:37,880 --> 01:18:42,080
Speaker 1: to what President Trump pursued in his Aprahum Accords, and

1438
01:18:42,200 --> 01:18:45,519
Speaker 1: so the base the insight that Jared Kushner brought to

1439
01:18:45,680 --> 01:18:48,760
Speaker 1: this process was, and he has said this out loud,

1440
01:18:48,800 --> 01:18:51,640
Speaker 1: he has said, everybody for decades has thought that you

1441
01:18:52,240 --> 01:18:56,160
Speaker 1: need to resolve the Israeli Palestinian question before you can

1442
01:18:56,560 --> 01:19:00,400
Speaker 1: make broader peace between the Arab countries and Israel. Because

1443
01:19:00,720 --> 01:19:02,680
Speaker 1: the Arab countries have been saying we're not going to

1444
01:19:02,720 --> 01:19:05,840
Speaker 1: normalize relations with Israel as long as there's an illegal

1445
01:19:05,880 --> 01:19:09,519
Speaker 1: occupation of Palestinians going on. They'd say, well, whether they

1446
01:19:09,600 --> 01:19:11,840
Speaker 1: believe in that or not, they would say, the Arab street,

1447
01:19:11,960 --> 01:19:15,360
Speaker 1: their public would not allow them to normalize relations with

1448
01:19:15,439 --> 01:19:18,200
Speaker 1: a country that is still engaged in an illegal occupation.

1449
01:19:18,640 --> 01:19:22,240
Speaker 1: Kushner said, no, that's not this case. In fact, it's

1450
01:19:22,360 --> 01:19:24,519
Speaker 1: just what he called a real estate dispute between the

1451
01:19:24,560 --> 01:19:29,640
Speaker 1: Palestinians and Israelis. And with enough money, enough access to

1452
01:19:29,720 --> 01:19:34,639
Speaker 1: surveillance technology, and enough access to weapons transfers and other

1453
01:19:34,800 --> 01:19:39,599
Speaker 1: kind of elite cultural transfers, you can create deals between

1454
01:19:39,640 --> 01:19:43,360
Speaker 1: Saudi Arabia and Israel and the UAE and Bahrain and

1455
01:19:43,520 --> 01:19:50,280
Speaker 1: others that completely sidestep the Palestinian question. So that was

1456
01:19:50,320 --> 01:19:53,719
Speaker 1: the Kushner strategy with the Abraham Accords. It's the Biden

1457
01:19:53,720 --> 01:19:56,559
Speaker 1: administration is not going as far as to say that publicly,

1458
01:19:56,680 --> 01:20:00,240
Speaker 1: but is what they're doing suggesting that they're like, Okay,

1459
01:20:00,360 --> 01:20:03,960
Speaker 1: maybe we'll just do what Kushner did, just ignore the Palestinians. Again,

1460
01:20:04,000 --> 01:20:06,720
Speaker 1: I think prominent factors with the administration. Absolutely that's what

1461
01:20:06,760 --> 01:20:09,720
Speaker 1: they're doing. And one of the most frustrating aspects of

1462
01:20:09,760 --> 01:20:11,920
Speaker 1: reporting on this is that the way in which they're

1463
01:20:12,000 --> 01:20:15,160
Speaker 1: doing it, the very secretive fashion, you know, you don't

1464
01:20:15,240 --> 01:20:17,880
Speaker 1: use a CI director instead of career diplomats who are

1465
01:20:17,880 --> 01:20:19,720
Speaker 1: supposed to do these things unless you don't want to

1466
01:20:19,760 --> 01:20:22,280
Speaker 1: come out, suggests that they're trying to lock this thing

1467
01:20:22,360 --> 01:20:24,280
Speaker 1: in before there is the chance for a public to

1468
01:20:24,800 --> 01:20:27,640
Speaker 1: register their frustration with you know, how bad of a

1469
01:20:27,680 --> 01:20:29,519
Speaker 1: deal this would be, not just for the people of

1470
01:20:29,560 --> 01:20:32,040
Speaker 1: the region but for the United States. I interviewed for

1471
01:20:32,120 --> 01:20:33,840
Speaker 1: the story that I did treat a Parsi, the vice

1472
01:20:33,880 --> 01:20:39,280
Speaker 1: president of the Quin's Institute. Yes, and he said, completely

1473
01:20:39,280 --> 01:20:41,840
Speaker 1: aside from the rights of Palastinians, the fact that this

1474
01:20:41,960 --> 01:20:44,679
Speaker 1: does nothing to address this, you know, burning regional problem

1475
01:20:45,000 --> 01:20:47,880
Speaker 1: there and Iran. What does this do for the United States? Right?

1476
01:20:47,960 --> 01:20:50,559
Speaker 1: And depending on what's in it, I understand that there's

1477
01:20:50,600 --> 01:20:54,519
Speaker 1: some discussion about security guarantees for the Saudis. This could

1478
01:20:54,560 --> 01:20:57,240
Speaker 1: have the effect of locking us in to a relationship

1479
01:20:57,360 --> 01:21:00,360
Speaker 1: that forces us to respond to problems now only that

1480
01:21:00,479 --> 01:21:03,040
Speaker 1: affect them, but that might be of their own creation

1481
01:21:03,280 --> 01:21:07,360
Speaker 1: in terms of antagonizing the Iranians, antagonizing the who theis

1482
01:21:07,720 --> 01:21:09,880
Speaker 1: and Yemen and that, and that this makes it more

1483
01:21:10,080 --> 01:21:13,519
Speaker 1: likely that you know, we will have to expend blood

1484
01:21:13,560 --> 01:21:16,479
Speaker 1: and treasure and responding to those kinds of problems. And unfortunately,

1485
01:21:16,520 --> 01:21:18,759
Speaker 1: when when those when when that happens, you know, everyone's

1486
01:21:18,760 --> 01:21:19,840
Speaker 1: pulling their hand and they're like, oh my god, I

1487
01:21:19,840 --> 01:21:22,880
Speaker 1: can'tlieve we're gonna but but they're setting the conditions now

1488
01:21:23,320 --> 01:21:25,640
Speaker 1: where that won't be able to be avoided if if

1489
01:21:25,680 --> 01:21:28,920
Speaker 1: this greement goes Yeah. Tretah Parci has this habit of

1490
01:21:29,760 --> 01:21:33,840
Speaker 1: asking this question that rarely gets asked in foreign policy

1491
01:21:33,880 --> 01:21:36,679
Speaker 1: circles here in the United States, was is this good

1492
01:21:36,760 --> 01:21:39,800
Speaker 1: for the United States? Why are we actually doing this?

1493
01:21:39,920 --> 01:21:42,840
Speaker 1: And It's an uncomfortable question when you're when you're looking

1494
01:21:42,880 --> 01:21:46,040
Speaker 1: at it, because like does not seem that way, because

1495
01:21:47,200 --> 01:21:50,320
Speaker 1: what these Gulf countries want out of this is a

1496
01:21:50,479 --> 01:21:54,719
Speaker 1: defense pledge that there will be all basically a NATO

1497
01:21:54,960 --> 01:21:58,600
Speaker 1: like military alliance that if any of them feel like

1498
01:21:58,720 --> 01:22:03,000
Speaker 1: they have been affronted by Yemen or by some other

1499
01:22:03,160 --> 01:22:06,920
Speaker 1: Iranian proxy in the region, that then it triggers a

1500
01:22:07,200 --> 01:22:09,400
Speaker 1: golf version of an Article five and the US is

1501
01:22:09,479 --> 01:22:13,000
Speaker 1: now obligated to go to war on behalf of these

1502
01:22:13,240 --> 01:22:18,840
Speaker 1: golf countries. This is happening while Iran and the other

1503
01:22:18,920 --> 01:22:21,920
Speaker 1: countries in the United States are, you know, within inches.

1504
01:22:22,000 --> 01:22:25,400
Speaker 1: It seems like of striking in Iran deal, which the

1505
01:22:25,439 --> 01:22:29,360
Speaker 1: golf countries in Israel very much do not want to happen. Recently,

1506
01:22:29,960 --> 01:22:35,600
Speaker 1: a an IRGC kernel was assassinated in Tehran. All the

1507
01:22:35,680 --> 01:22:39,160
Speaker 1: speculation was that this was Israel that had assassinated this

1508
01:22:39,439 --> 01:22:42,280
Speaker 1: this kernel in order to make it more difficult for

1509
01:22:42,360 --> 01:22:44,840
Speaker 1: them to strike a deal between Iran and the US

1510
01:22:45,080 --> 01:22:48,519
Speaker 1: over the nuclear program, because striking that deal would require

1511
01:22:48,920 --> 01:22:52,160
Speaker 1: delisting the i er GC from the from the terrorists

1512
01:22:52,640 --> 01:22:56,800
Speaker 1: from the terror watch list terror list. So what is

1513
01:22:57,040 --> 01:23:01,000
Speaker 1: Treaty's argument about how and this this is part of

1514
01:23:01,040 --> 01:23:03,880
Speaker 1: your pace about how the Iran deal fits into this

1515
01:23:04,520 --> 01:23:08,040
Speaker 1: defense this kind of Middle East NATO that Saudi Arabia,

1516
01:23:08,040 --> 01:23:10,680
Speaker 1: the UA, and Israel are trying to foist on the US. Yeah.

1517
01:23:10,720 --> 01:23:11,960
Speaker 1: So the way he describes it, which I think is

1518
01:23:12,040 --> 01:23:15,240
Speaker 1: very reasonable, is that it incentivizes these regional actors to

1519
01:23:15,320 --> 01:23:18,760
Speaker 1: get into more conflicts knowing that the most powerful military

1520
01:23:19,360 --> 01:23:21,320
Speaker 1: party on Earth is going to be able to bail

1521
01:23:21,400 --> 01:23:24,000
Speaker 1: them out. And I think that's exactly right. It not

1522
01:23:24,080 --> 01:23:27,040
Speaker 1: only incentivizes them to be more reckless in their foreign policy,

1523
01:23:27,280 --> 01:23:33,519
Speaker 1: it disincentivizes moves towards, you know, drawing down hostilities with

1524
01:23:33,680 --> 01:23:36,439
Speaker 1: these regional powers. And you know, my fear is that

1525
01:23:36,760 --> 01:23:39,920
Speaker 1: there will be some sort of short term JCPOA you're

1526
01:23:40,040 --> 01:23:43,800
Speaker 1: on normalization thrown into this as a sweetener to kind

1527
01:23:43,840 --> 01:23:46,360
Speaker 1: of try to sell it to the progressive wing, knowing

1528
01:23:46,439 --> 01:23:48,680
Speaker 1: that when Biden is out of office, the Republicans will

1529
01:23:48,680 --> 01:23:52,759
Speaker 1: immediately abrogate it. But the US agreement with the Persian

1530
01:23:52,760 --> 01:23:56,120
Speaker 1: Gulf states the golf monarchies will remain. Abraham plus stuff

1531
01:23:56,160 --> 01:23:59,479
Speaker 1: will say, yeah, and these are already you know, impulsive

1532
01:23:59,520 --> 01:24:02,519
Speaker 1: reculate breckless leaders, like if you look at what's going

1533
01:24:02,560 --> 01:24:06,880
Speaker 1: on Nielia, Somalia, yem and they blockaded Kutter, which has

1534
01:24:06,920 --> 01:24:10,519
Speaker 1: an American base, right, and you're going to embolden them

1535
01:24:10,560 --> 01:24:13,439
Speaker 1: to do more. UH, fascinating piece. And we're gonna we're

1536
01:24:13,439 --> 01:24:15,479
Speaker 1: gonna keep watching this. This is history in the making.

1537
01:24:15,600 --> 01:24:19,000
Speaker 1: Like there, we're we are reshaping our relationships with these

1538
01:24:19,160 --> 01:24:22,519
Speaker 1: with these countries right now, and uh not necessarily in

1539
01:24:22,880 --> 01:24:25,080
Speaker 1: a way in a positive direction, and it's going to

1540
01:24:25,160 --> 01:24:28,760
Speaker 1: lead us potentially two more war. So stick around. We're

1541
01:24:28,760 --> 01:24:31,759
Speaker 1: gonna we're gonna come back with uh with an election

1542
01:24:31,880 --> 01:24:35,439
Speaker 1: recap from the this past week. Thanks again for watching this,

1543
01:24:35,760 --> 01:24:38,960
Speaker 1: UH as always check go to the Intercept dot com

1544
01:24:39,240 --> 01:24:41,960
Speaker 1: to check out Ken in my work. And thank you

1545
01:24:42,160 --> 01:24:45,880
Speaker 1: for supporting Breaking Points, which supports this partnership. And thank

1546
01:24:45,920 --> 01:24:48,880
Speaker 1: you Ken. Good to be with you. Hey, guys, our

1547
01:24:48,880 --> 01:24:51,400
Speaker 1: friend Marsha Kossoff, he's going to be conducting interviews with

1548
01:24:51,520 --> 01:24:54,040
Speaker 1: experts and newsmakers for us here on the Breaking Points channel.

1549
01:24:54,040 --> 01:24:56,960
Speaker 1: We're really excited. Yep. Here it is Hey, Breaking Points

1550
01:24:56,960 --> 01:24:59,320
Speaker 1: and Joe by Peter Goodman. He's the author of Davos Man.

1551
01:24:59,439 --> 01:25:02,400
Speaker 1: We're here to talk talk about Davos, the World Economic Forum,

1552
01:25:02,479 --> 01:25:04,040
Speaker 1: and the big event which is drawing a lot of

1553
01:25:04,080 --> 01:25:07,400
Speaker 1: attention basically from everyone this week. Let's just start with

1554
01:25:07,520 --> 01:25:10,519
Speaker 1: a very basic question. What is Davos and why is

1555
01:25:10,560 --> 01:25:12,280
Speaker 1: it on everyone's behind to the point where you wrote

1556
01:25:12,320 --> 01:25:16,320
Speaker 1: a book about it. Well, it is a gathering of

1557
01:25:16,400 --> 01:25:20,280
Speaker 1: the most powerful people on earth. We're talking billionaires, heads

1558
01:25:20,320 --> 01:25:23,240
Speaker 1: of state, the odds, celebrity and they get together under

1559
01:25:23,280 --> 01:25:25,920
Speaker 1: this mantra committed to improving the state of the world.

1560
01:25:26,040 --> 01:25:29,240
Speaker 1: They go up to the mountaintop in this otherwise unremarkable

1561
01:25:29,320 --> 01:25:32,280
Speaker 1: village of Davos, to the Swiss Alps, committed to improving

1562
01:25:32,320 --> 01:25:34,719
Speaker 1: the state of the world. Which is a curious phrase

1563
01:25:35,240 --> 01:25:38,920
Speaker 1: considering that these are the ultimate beneficiaries of the status

1564
01:25:39,000 --> 01:25:42,639
Speaker 1: quo and they would certainly like to keep it that way. Okay,

1565
01:25:42,760 --> 01:25:46,240
Speaker 1: that's interesting. What basically are they saying. What is the

1566
01:25:46,400 --> 01:25:50,400
Speaker 1: area of focus that they're saying needs to be identified with. Well,

1567
01:25:50,720 --> 01:25:54,880
Speaker 1: I mean, they're always talking about the perennials like climate change.

1568
01:25:55,040 --> 01:25:59,000
Speaker 1: This year, they're talking about the war in Ukraine. They're

1569
01:25:59,040 --> 01:26:03,439
Speaker 1: talking about resetting capitalism to address inequality so that we

1570
01:26:03,520 --> 01:26:06,160
Speaker 1: can spread the benefits to more people. If you simply

1571
01:26:06,280 --> 01:26:10,000
Speaker 1: go by what happens in Davos itself. It's pretty unobjectionable.

1572
01:26:10,600 --> 01:26:13,080
Speaker 1: I mean, in terms of the official program. There are

1573
01:26:13,080 --> 01:26:15,280
Speaker 1: a lot of very brilliant people there. There are top

1574
01:26:15,360 --> 01:26:17,880
Speaker 1: academics who have all sorts of thoughts about things like

1575
01:26:17,960 --> 01:26:21,720
Speaker 1: climate change and racial and gender imbalance, and you can

1576
01:26:21,840 --> 01:26:24,040
Speaker 1: learn a lot if you're there. The problem is that

1577
01:26:24,080 --> 01:26:27,160
Speaker 1: the people actually pay the bills. These are the billionaires,

1578
01:26:27,360 --> 01:26:31,280
Speaker 1: tech CEOs, finance CEOs. They use it as a way

1579
01:26:31,320 --> 01:26:35,920
Speaker 1: to signal their virtues, to kind of protect themselves from

1580
01:26:36,000 --> 01:26:39,400
Speaker 1: those of us in democratic societies actually doing things that

1581
01:26:39,520 --> 01:26:41,880
Speaker 1: are meaningful, to turn some of these words into action,

1582
01:26:42,640 --> 01:26:49,880
Speaker 1: things like carbon taxes, regulations on emissions, progressive taxation, to

1583
01:26:49,960 --> 01:26:52,479
Speaker 1: give governments the wherewithal to actually do the things that

1584
01:26:52,640 --> 01:26:56,960
Speaker 1: people want them to do, antitrust enforcement to deal with

1585
01:26:57,080 --> 01:27:01,960
Speaker 1: monopoly power. These sorts of things are discussed at great length.

1586
01:27:02,080 --> 01:27:05,120
Speaker 1: But you know, guess what, nothing ever really seems to change,

1587
01:27:05,120 --> 01:27:07,679
Speaker 1: and that doesn't seem like an accident. You know, it's

1588
01:27:07,760 --> 01:27:10,200
Speaker 1: interesting when you talk about benefiting from the status quo.

1589
01:27:10,240 --> 01:27:13,479
Speaker 1: I'm glad that you talked about the topic djure this year, obviously,

1590
01:27:13,520 --> 01:27:15,360
Speaker 1: which is the war in Ukraine. I know there are

1591
01:27:15,439 --> 01:27:18,120
Speaker 1: listeners who are thinking the weapons industry benefits from that

1592
01:27:18,200 --> 01:27:20,920
Speaker 1: status quo. That isn't really the type of folk or

1593
01:27:20,960 --> 01:27:22,880
Speaker 1: the type of industries that really go to these type

1594
01:27:22,880 --> 01:27:26,040
Speaker 1: of places. You focus on people like the founder of Salesforce.

1595
01:27:26,120 --> 01:27:30,680
Speaker 1: It's more it's more just finance, technology, those aspects of it.

1596
01:27:30,760 --> 01:27:33,719
Speaker 1: So how would you define them as benefiting from most

1597
01:27:33,960 --> 01:27:37,800
Speaker 1: Finance is hugely important. I mean, well, what's our strategy

1598
01:27:38,640 --> 01:27:40,479
Speaker 1: to end the war in Ukraine. It's to turn up

1599
01:27:40,520 --> 01:27:44,160
Speaker 1: the heat on the oligarchs with and this is debatable,

1600
01:27:44,240 --> 01:27:47,320
Speaker 1: but with the assumption that if we upset the oligarchs,

1601
01:27:47,320 --> 01:27:49,600
Speaker 1: we make it hard for them to access their playthings

1602
01:27:49,720 --> 01:27:51,680
Speaker 1: like their yachts, and they're worried about what happens to

1603
01:27:51,760 --> 01:27:56,120
Speaker 1: their wealth. That will put pressure on Putin to then relent. Well,

1604
01:27:56,400 --> 01:27:58,519
Speaker 1: we have to deal with our own oligarchs. I mean

1605
01:27:58,560 --> 01:28:01,960
Speaker 1: the people in Davos, including Steve Schwartzman, who's one of

1606
01:28:02,040 --> 01:28:04,120
Speaker 1: my five primary characters in my book. This is the

1607
01:28:04,200 --> 01:28:08,280
Speaker 1: world's most successful private equity magnate. They have lobbied over

1608
01:28:08,479 --> 01:28:12,800
Speaker 1: years to maintain private equity as a secret preserve. I mean,

1609
01:28:12,840 --> 01:28:15,960
Speaker 1: the US is the ultimate offshore banking center. If you

1610
01:28:16,040 --> 01:28:18,720
Speaker 1: set aside traditional banking and you focus on things like

1611
01:28:19,040 --> 01:28:22,760
Speaker 1: private equity, which is exempt from all the sanctions, we

1612
01:28:22,880 --> 01:28:26,080
Speaker 1: don't have any idea who's investing in private equity, and

1613
01:28:26,200 --> 01:28:29,600
Speaker 1: that's not by accident. That's because private equity itself benefits

1614
01:28:29,880 --> 01:28:32,519
Speaker 1: when there's no audit trail and there's no ability to

1615
01:28:32,600 --> 01:28:35,679
Speaker 1: cut off people who are bringing their ill gotten gains.

1616
01:28:36,000 --> 01:28:42,960
Speaker 1: We are protecting our own oligarchs against the bite of

1617
01:28:43,120 --> 01:28:46,679
Speaker 1: these sanctions that might otherwise create pressure on Putin's holigards.

1618
01:28:47,439 --> 01:28:49,960
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting you're talking about how you have

1619
01:28:50,280 --> 01:28:54,040
Speaker 1: this system where folks are benefiting, they have their power,

1620
01:28:54,160 --> 01:28:57,879
Speaker 1: But there are also conspiracies that come out about dabos,

1621
01:28:57,920 --> 01:29:00,840
Speaker 1: you know, the Great Reset. You'll get a clip that

1622
01:29:00,960 --> 01:29:02,960
Speaker 1: goes O whever if you just comment on that aspect

1623
01:29:03,000 --> 01:29:07,400
Speaker 1: of it without losing our monetization. I'm not a big

1624
01:29:07,600 --> 01:29:11,400
Speaker 1: conspiracy guy, and I think it's really overdone. I think

1625
01:29:11,439 --> 01:29:14,840
Speaker 1: in a weird way, it actually helps the Forum by

1626
01:29:15,000 --> 01:29:18,240
Speaker 1: reinforcing the relevance of the World Economic Forum by claiming

1627
01:29:18,280 --> 01:29:21,760
Speaker 1: that it's this like secret society that's making all the rules. Now,

1628
01:29:21,840 --> 01:29:24,160
Speaker 1: don't get me wrong, it is a gathering of the

1629
01:29:24,240 --> 01:29:26,680
Speaker 1: most powerful people on earth, and they will do what

1630
01:29:26,880 --> 01:29:29,040
Speaker 1: they do when they gather, which is to do deals

1631
01:29:29,840 --> 01:29:34,640
Speaker 1: outside of the scrutiny of annoying people like journalists or regulators.

1632
01:29:34,920 --> 01:29:39,479
Speaker 1: In that sense, it is significant. And I have been

1633
01:29:39,560 --> 01:29:41,920
Speaker 1: told by billionaires that they can see more people in

1634
01:29:42,040 --> 01:29:44,639
Speaker 1: four days and Davos than they might see in six

1635
01:29:44,720 --> 01:29:47,840
Speaker 1: months of flying around the world. But I'm just using

1636
01:29:47,920 --> 01:29:50,240
Speaker 1: it in my book as a kind of like watering

1637
01:29:50,320 --> 01:29:52,760
Speaker 1: hole on our safari, right, Like, I'm interested in this

1638
01:29:52,920 --> 01:29:56,360
Speaker 1: species of Davos man, a species that really is separate

1639
01:29:56,400 --> 01:29:59,559
Speaker 1: from the rest of humanity. Their experience is just different.

1640
01:30:00,240 --> 01:30:03,360
Speaker 1: And where do we go on safari to go see game, Well,

1641
01:30:03,360 --> 01:30:05,880
Speaker 1: we go to the watering hole. That's Davos. It's one

1642
01:30:05,920 --> 01:30:08,439
Speaker 1: of many watering holes. It happens to be a really

1643
01:30:08,479 --> 01:30:14,040
Speaker 1: significant one. Everybody's there. It's not that the rules are

1644
01:30:14,200 --> 01:30:17,880
Speaker 1: promulgated up on the mountaintop and handed down. In fact,

1645
01:30:17,960 --> 01:30:20,320
Speaker 1: it's the opposite. I mean, all of the agreements and

1646
01:30:20,360 --> 01:30:23,120
Speaker 1: the pledges, they rarely amount to anything. I mean, the

1647
01:30:23,200 --> 01:30:25,880
Speaker 1: forum now is talking about how it's so significant because

1648
01:30:25,920 --> 01:30:29,840
Speaker 1: it's the birthplace of GAVI, this International Vaccine Alliance that's

1649
01:30:29,880 --> 01:30:33,320
Speaker 1: supposed to have prevented exactly what has happened, which is

1650
01:30:33,400 --> 01:30:39,280
Speaker 1: tremendously unequal rates of vaccination against COVID nineteen. There's a

1651
01:30:39,320 --> 01:30:42,000
Speaker 1: lot of talk of kovacs, which GAVI is part of,

1652
01:30:42,560 --> 01:30:45,720
Speaker 1: completely failed, you know. I mean, it's succeeded as a

1653
01:30:46,160 --> 01:30:49,439
Speaker 1: kind of source of press releases so that pharmaceutical companies

1654
01:30:49,520 --> 01:30:51,280
Speaker 1: can say, hey, we've taken care of this. You don't

1655
01:30:51,280 --> 01:30:53,240
Speaker 1: have to stick us with rules, you don't have to

1656
01:30:53,320 --> 01:30:56,120
Speaker 1: violate our intellectual property the World Trade Organization, we will

1657
01:30:56,160 --> 01:30:59,439
Speaker 1: solve this's you know, it hasn't happened. So I don't

1658
01:30:59,439 --> 01:31:01,760
Speaker 1: think it's that Davos is so important in terms of

1659
01:31:01,800 --> 01:31:06,719
Speaker 1: the rulemaking. It's what Davos signifies. It's the billionaire saying

1660
01:31:06,880 --> 01:31:10,440
Speaker 1: we've got this. Don't stick us with anti trust enforcement

1661
01:31:10,840 --> 01:31:13,120
Speaker 1: rules to allow labor to organize so they can get

1662
01:31:13,120 --> 01:31:16,720
Speaker 1: a piece of the action. Progressive taxation. It's the it's

1663
01:31:16,760 --> 01:31:20,599
Speaker 1: the antidote to those of us in democratic societies actually

1664
01:31:20,800 --> 01:31:23,800
Speaker 1: using our democratic rights, you know. And this goes to

1665
01:31:24,040 --> 01:31:27,439
Speaker 1: I think your correction on aside from the lack of

1666
01:31:27,560 --> 01:31:30,720
Speaker 1: factual factualness to make up a ward when it comes

1667
01:31:30,720 --> 01:31:34,320
Speaker 1: to the conspiracy theory is it's misidentifying where the problem

1668
01:31:34,360 --> 01:31:36,599
Speaker 1: there is, because I know grown note on this, which

1669
01:31:36,640 --> 01:31:39,360
Speaker 1: is the issue from your perspective, is that what laws

1670
01:31:39,439 --> 01:31:42,680
Speaker 1: ring past in Washington, it doesn't matter that a blowhard

1671
01:31:42,800 --> 01:31:46,040
Speaker 1: billionaire is giving a big speech at a conference with

1672
01:31:46,200 --> 01:31:49,080
Speaker 1: other blow hard billionaires that is not actually the center

1673
01:31:49,120 --> 01:31:51,320
Speaker 1: where a lot of these problems or solutions could really

1674
01:31:51,320 --> 01:31:53,920
Speaker 1: be adjudicated. But that's how I just sort of see

1675
01:31:54,000 --> 01:31:57,400
Speaker 1: that there. So something I'm curious about is how has

1676
01:31:58,120 --> 01:32:02,120
Speaker 1: especially this year, the word economic form and Davos itself

1677
01:32:02,520 --> 01:32:06,479
Speaker 1: responded to the past two years, not in terms of

1678
01:32:06,600 --> 01:32:09,320
Speaker 1: just like the COVID, but the criticism, the criticism from

1679
01:32:09,400 --> 01:32:13,200
Speaker 1: folks such as yourself, the conspiracies, like whether obviously the

1680
01:32:13,240 --> 01:32:16,040
Speaker 1: conspiracies aren't true from our perspective. But I would say

1681
01:32:16,080 --> 01:32:19,519
Speaker 1: that Davos feel is controversial in a way it hasn't

1682
01:32:19,600 --> 01:32:21,720
Speaker 1: before from a couple of different directions. How are they

1683
01:32:21,800 --> 01:32:25,479
Speaker 1: responding to that. I think they're responding to that by

1684
01:32:25,560 --> 01:32:28,120
Speaker 1: doing what they always do, which is co opting the

1685
01:32:28,280 --> 01:32:32,639
Speaker 1: language of the people who are criticizing, so doubling down

1686
01:32:33,000 --> 01:32:37,519
Speaker 1: on talking about inequality, talking about the need for more

1687
01:32:38,280 --> 01:32:43,240
Speaker 1: bountiful capitalism, whose gains are shared more widely, doubling down

1688
01:32:43,360 --> 01:32:47,160
Speaker 1: on talk of the pursuit of solutions to the pandemic

1689
01:32:47,600 --> 01:32:53,160
Speaker 1: and vaccine inequality. They essentially they ignore their critics by

1690
01:32:53,360 --> 01:32:57,000
Speaker 1: making criticism part of their own talking points, and it's

1691
01:32:57,200 --> 01:33:02,519
Speaker 1: very effectively done. I don't see a great amount of change.

1692
01:33:02,560 --> 01:33:04,679
Speaker 1: In fact, I was struck by us seeing some analysis

1693
01:33:04,720 --> 01:33:07,880
Speaker 1: I can't remember where it came out showing the great

1694
01:33:07,960 --> 01:33:11,639
Speaker 1: relevance of Davos, because suddenly there are more pledges than ever. Boy,

1695
01:33:11,760 --> 01:33:14,240
Speaker 1: if there's one thing we've got enough of, it's pledges

1696
01:33:14,479 --> 01:33:16,840
Speaker 1: and reports. I mean, if you just read all the

1697
01:33:16,960 --> 01:33:20,080
Speaker 1: reports that the World Economic Forum put out, we'd be

1698
01:33:20,200 --> 01:33:22,920
Speaker 1: much more enlightened. They hire top notch people to dig

1699
01:33:23,000 --> 01:33:26,000
Speaker 1: into important issues, and then it just gets put out

1700
01:33:26,080 --> 01:33:28,200
Speaker 1: as a press release. It becomes the basis for some

1701
01:33:28,360 --> 01:33:31,679
Speaker 1: panel discussion. And then meanwhile, the people who actually matter

1702
01:33:31,760 --> 01:33:34,599
Speaker 1: at Davos, these are the people paying hundreds of thousands

1703
01:33:34,640 --> 01:33:39,439
Speaker 1: of dollars for foreign memberships. They ignore the proceedings and

1704
01:33:39,520 --> 01:33:42,280
Speaker 1: they meet in private suites where they don't have to

1705
01:33:42,320 --> 01:33:46,960
Speaker 1: disclose what they're discussing. I mean, the members of monarchies

1706
01:33:47,040 --> 01:33:50,439
Speaker 1: they control oil assets can meet with CEOs of fossil

1707
01:33:50,479 --> 01:33:52,920
Speaker 1: fuel companies, and they can do what they do, which

1708
01:33:52,960 --> 01:33:57,360
Speaker 1: is perpetuate the status quo. So help the audience here,

1709
01:33:58,000 --> 01:34:01,160
Speaker 1: Like you said, what makes us quote to adjudicator is

1710
01:34:01,240 --> 01:34:04,439
Speaker 1: they will use language you know, like you know. Mark

1711
01:34:04,479 --> 01:34:09,599
Speaker 1: Benioff writes a book critiquing capitalism. How should how should

1712
01:34:10,360 --> 01:34:15,880
Speaker 1: viewers judge the seriousness of these statements, the seriousness of

1713
01:34:15,960 --> 01:34:18,360
Speaker 1: the approach? How do you separate the Davos speak as

1714
01:34:18,400 --> 01:34:22,519
Speaker 1: you call it, from just actual serious confrontation with issues

1715
01:34:23,240 --> 01:34:25,880
Speaker 1: follow the money and and you know, don't get me wrong.

1716
01:34:26,520 --> 01:34:30,200
Speaker 1: If billionaires want to engage in philanthropy, if they want

1717
01:34:30,200 --> 01:34:33,640
Speaker 1: to run their companies so that they're more generous to

1718
01:34:33,680 --> 01:34:36,120
Speaker 1: their employees and they make it they make their companies

1719
01:34:36,200 --> 01:34:38,479
Speaker 1: better places to work, good for them. If they want

1720
01:34:38,520 --> 01:34:41,760
Speaker 1: to boost their their diversity in terms of hiring and

1721
01:34:41,840 --> 01:34:44,639
Speaker 1: representation of their workforces, that's all good. I mean, I'm

1722
01:34:44,680 --> 01:34:47,120
Speaker 1: not here to say they shouldn't do those things. My

1723
01:34:47,320 --> 01:34:50,760
Speaker 1: book argues that we can't count on those things as

1724
01:34:50,800 --> 01:34:55,479
Speaker 1: a substitute for rules that are handed down through the

1725
01:34:55,600 --> 01:34:58,240
Speaker 1: process that we can actually count on, and that's democracy.

1726
01:34:58,640 --> 01:35:01,320
Speaker 1: So if billionaires want to give up some of their fortunes.

1727
01:35:01,680 --> 01:35:03,800
Speaker 1: To make it easier for people to get PPE in

1728
01:35:03,840 --> 01:35:06,880
Speaker 1: a pandemic, or to boost vaccine access, or make it

1729
01:35:06,960 --> 01:35:10,679
Speaker 1: easier for girls in the developing world to go to school. Great,

1730
01:35:11,360 --> 01:35:15,519
Speaker 1: But we still need progressive taxation, anti trust enforcement, we

1731
01:35:15,640 --> 01:35:20,400
Speaker 1: need collective bargaining. We can't fall for the vows as

1732
01:35:20,439 --> 01:35:23,920
Speaker 1: a substitute for real action. And I frankly don't even

1733
01:35:23,960 --> 01:35:27,160
Speaker 1: think there's that much value in truth squatting all the claims,

1734
01:35:27,280 --> 01:35:30,840
Speaker 1: because I don't come from this standpoint that the end

1735
01:35:30,960 --> 01:35:34,360
Speaker 1: game should be make davos Man live up to davos

1736
01:35:34,439 --> 01:35:37,000
Speaker 1: Man's rhetoric. I don't want to live in a world

1737
01:35:37,040 --> 01:35:39,240
Speaker 1: where I'm waiting for the real White Night to come

1738
01:35:39,280 --> 01:35:41,680
Speaker 1: in and solve all of our problems. The solution to

1739
01:35:41,760 --> 01:35:44,800
Speaker 1: our problems is democracy itself. It's going to require the

1740
01:35:44,880 --> 01:35:51,160
Speaker 1: mobilization of people in major democratic societies to use the

1741
01:35:51,240 --> 01:35:54,440
Speaker 1: levers of democracy to get the things they want for themselves,

1742
01:35:54,520 --> 01:35:57,800
Speaker 1: and that's going to require things like progressive taxation to

1743
01:35:57,880 --> 01:36:00,840
Speaker 1: get the resources. Go ahead, have dob you know, and

1744
01:36:01,479 --> 01:36:03,880
Speaker 1: let's just see what comes of it. But let's not

1745
01:36:04,040 --> 01:36:06,360
Speaker 1: put any stock in it as the solution to our problems.

1746
01:36:06,920 --> 01:36:08,680
Speaker 1: I ask My last question, and this is something I

1747
01:36:08,760 --> 01:36:11,760
Speaker 1: was just thinking about, having actually read the book, What

1748
01:36:12,400 --> 01:36:16,400
Speaker 1: is the limits of davos Man's power? So an example

1749
01:36:16,439 --> 01:36:19,519
Speaker 1: of this would be Michael Bloomberg. He's the ultimate example

1750
01:36:19,800 --> 01:36:21,840
Speaker 1: of davos Man, I think, on a couple of different levels.

1751
01:36:21,880 --> 01:36:24,719
Speaker 1: You know, even or runs for president, he spends billions

1752
01:36:24,760 --> 01:36:27,679
Speaker 1: of dollars on gun control legislation. If you're a center

1753
01:36:27,800 --> 01:36:30,439
Speaker 1: left to left person, you're likely happy with and agree

1754
01:36:30,439 --> 01:36:33,360
Speaker 1: with the way he's putting it. But the legislation didn't advance.

1755
01:36:33,760 --> 01:36:36,160
Speaker 1: So I'm just curious thinking of that example and just

1756
01:36:36,240 --> 01:36:38,680
Speaker 1: other related ones, like what what are the limits of

1757
01:36:38,920 --> 01:36:42,479
Speaker 1: their power relative to democracy, whether you agree with their

1758
01:36:42,520 --> 01:36:47,000
Speaker 1: individual policies or not. That's a really interesting question. I mean,

1759
01:36:47,080 --> 01:36:51,000
Speaker 1: I would say their power in terms of perpetuating the

1760
01:36:51,080 --> 01:36:54,400
Speaker 1: status quo seems right now to be just about unlimited.

1761
01:36:55,320 --> 01:36:59,639
Speaker 1: It's very easy to defeat legislation in a democracy. That's

1762
01:36:59,640 --> 01:37:02,880
Speaker 1: a why in campaign funds. I mean, in the US

1763
01:37:02,960 --> 01:37:07,920
Speaker 1: we're living under Citizens United, We've got massive social media campaigns.

1764
01:37:08,080 --> 01:37:10,320
Speaker 1: I mean think about you know the power of Amazon

1765
01:37:10,640 --> 01:37:13,559
Speaker 1: having come through the pandemic now with one of its

1766
01:37:13,600 --> 01:37:18,080
Speaker 1: plants unionized by Christian Small as this labor leader who

1767
01:37:18,120 --> 01:37:21,800
Speaker 1: has actually fired for staging a walkout in the worst

1768
01:37:21,880 --> 01:37:25,080
Speaker 1: months of the first wave of the pandemic. And you know,

1769
01:37:25,240 --> 01:37:27,600
Speaker 1: we know that Christian Smalls has managed to score the

1770
01:37:27,640 --> 01:37:31,960
Speaker 1: significant victory. We also know that Amazon last year produced

1771
01:37:31,960 --> 01:37:34,880
Speaker 1: a bunch of television spots and put them out on

1772
01:37:34,960 --> 01:37:39,439
Speaker 1: social media and insinuated them into mainstream television coverage, as

1773
01:37:39,760 --> 01:37:42,000
Speaker 1: you know, regular local news spots in which they interviewed

1774
01:37:42,040 --> 01:37:44,600
Speaker 1: warehouse workers saying, how you know, we're so happy and

1775
01:37:44,680 --> 01:37:48,360
Speaker 1: we're protected and we're part of this great enterprise. The

1776
01:37:49,080 --> 01:37:53,640
Speaker 1: the capacity of Davos Man to influence public opinion and

1777
01:37:53,840 --> 01:37:57,080
Speaker 1: tie up attempts to alter the status quote not unlimited.

1778
01:37:57,160 --> 01:38:00,320
Speaker 1: Christian Small has taught us that, but it's it's pretty formidable,

1779
01:38:00,360 --> 01:38:03,080
Speaker 1: and it's going to require continued mass mobilization for us

1780
01:38:03,120 --> 01:38:05,800
Speaker 1: to get what we want. Man to wrap this, I

1781
01:38:05,960 --> 01:38:08,080
Speaker 1: actually really appreciated that last answer because you helped me

1782
01:38:08,200 --> 01:38:12,120
Speaker 1: better understand your point. Because your point isn't that Michael

1783
01:38:12,120 --> 01:38:16,639
Speaker 1: Bloomberg could magically change the status quo on gun control,

1784
01:38:16,800 --> 01:38:20,240
Speaker 1: Tom Steyer can't change the climate change status quo. The

1785
01:38:20,320 --> 01:38:25,080
Speaker 1: point is that they still economically benefit from that status

1786
01:38:25,240 --> 01:38:27,679
Speaker 1: quo and that underlying rowty seems to be the problem.

1787
01:38:27,720 --> 01:38:29,760
Speaker 1: Is that a good way to something up? Yeah, I

1788
01:38:30,439 --> 01:38:32,559
Speaker 1: think that's right. I mean we come full circle committed

1789
01:38:32,600 --> 01:38:34,840
Speaker 1: to improving the state of the world. Well, when you're

1790
01:38:34,920 --> 01:38:38,040
Speaker 1: the ultimate beneficiaries of the status quo, how much change

1791
01:38:38,120 --> 01:38:40,720
Speaker 1: you really in the mood for? And that's what we

1792
01:38:40,880 --> 01:38:45,680
Speaker 1: see time and again. The power structure gets replicated, and

1793
01:38:45,760 --> 01:38:48,559
Speaker 1: these attempts that we see at Davos to talk about

1794
01:38:48,640 --> 01:38:53,120
Speaker 1: stakeholder capitalism, you know, new ways to organize companies so

1795
01:38:53,320 --> 01:38:56,599
Speaker 1: that the bounty is shared more widely. All this stuff,

1796
01:38:56,680 --> 01:39:01,160
Speaker 1: it's like unilateralist rhetoric. It's not a change the power structure.

1797
01:39:01,320 --> 01:39:05,560
Speaker 1: And ultimately, we have a lot of people who recognize

1798
01:39:05,920 --> 01:39:08,960
Speaker 1: that they don't have power, and they're angry about it,

1799
01:39:09,280 --> 01:39:13,880
Speaker 1: and they're willing to embrace often extremist and nonsensical solutions

1800
01:39:13,920 --> 01:39:17,320
Speaker 1: to very real problems. And it's the power structure itself

1801
01:39:17,400 --> 01:39:19,320
Speaker 1: that has to be altered so that we actually do

1802
01:39:19,520 --> 01:39:22,720
Speaker 1: have a democracy. Well, Peter, thank you so much for

1803
01:39:22,800 --> 01:39:25,599
Speaker 1: joining us on breaking points. The book is Davos Mann

1804
01:39:25,640 --> 01:39:28,200
Speaker 1: and unfortunately, regardless of the week, it is going to

1805
01:39:28,200 --> 01:39:30,920
Speaker 1: be relevant and apply. So definitely check it out. Thank

1806
01:39:30,960 --> 01:39:35,920
Speaker 1: you so much. Great to talk to you. Hi. I'm

1807
01:39:35,960 --> 01:39:38,920
Speaker 1: Matt Stoller, author of monopoly focused newsletter Big and an

1808
01:39:38,920 --> 01:39:41,760
Speaker 1: anti trust policy analyst. I have a great segment for

1809
01:39:41,800 --> 01:39:45,160
Speaker 1: you today on this Big Breakdown. Yes, today we're going

1810
01:39:45,200 --> 01:39:48,200
Speaker 1: to talk about the baby formula fiasco, what's going on

1811
01:39:48,360 --> 01:39:51,599
Speaker 1: with it, and what it says about the American economy.

1812
01:39:51,760 --> 01:39:54,679
Speaker 1: As you'll learn, it's not just baby formula and shortage,

1813
01:39:54,920 --> 01:39:58,840
Speaker 1: and the shortages across the economy have a common root. Okay,

1814
01:39:59,240 --> 01:40:01,599
Speaker 1: so let's start with the basics. A few months ago,

1815
01:40:01,840 --> 01:40:04,639
Speaker 1: Abbot Labs, which is the largest producer of baby formula

1816
01:40:04,680 --> 01:40:06,800
Speaker 1: in the United States, had to shut down its main

1817
01:40:06,840 --> 01:40:11,200
Speaker 1: production facilities in Sturgis, Michigan because they had become contaminated

1818
01:40:11,360 --> 01:40:14,680
Speaker 1: with deadly bacteria. The FDA forced the shutdown after two

1819
01:40:14,760 --> 01:40:17,479
Speaker 1: babies died and two others were injured who had drank

1820
01:40:17,560 --> 01:40:20,760
Speaker 1: the formula. Now, the company in another firm called me

1821
01:40:20,960 --> 01:40:23,880
Speaker 1: Johnson control about eighty percent of the formula market in

1822
01:40:23,960 --> 01:40:27,759
Speaker 1: the United States. So now with the biggest player essentially

1823
01:40:27,840 --> 01:40:31,519
Speaker 1: off the market, there's a shortage. Now. Obviously, the situation

1824
01:40:31,720 --> 01:40:34,599
Speaker 1: is a nightmare for parents, especially for those whose children

1825
01:40:34,640 --> 01:40:37,799
Speaker 1: require special kinds of formula because of gastro intestinal issues

1826
01:40:38,080 --> 01:40:41,400
Speaker 1: or food allergies. Babies are being brought to hospitals so

1827
01:40:41,439 --> 01:40:43,720
Speaker 1: they get food and just to get food, and some

1828
01:40:43,840 --> 01:40:45,960
Speaker 1: are even having to get feeding tubes if they have

1829
01:40:46,080 --> 01:40:49,280
Speaker 1: problems with the only formula available to them. It's just horrible.

1830
01:40:49,680 --> 01:40:51,680
Speaker 1: So let's talk about the root of the issue, and

1831
01:40:52,000 --> 01:40:54,000
Speaker 1: to do that we have to start with the firm

1832
01:40:54,080 --> 01:40:57,320
Speaker 1: at the center of the problem, Abbot Labs. Now, Abbot

1833
01:40:57,560 --> 01:41:01,200
Speaker 1: is a huge and profitable firm. It'll owns lots of

1834
01:41:01,240 --> 01:41:09,120
Speaker 1: different divisions from infant nutrition to medical medical supplies to pharmaceuticals,

1835
01:41:09,880 --> 01:41:12,240
Speaker 1: and like a lot of huge companies, is a two

1836
01:41:12,320 --> 01:41:14,880
Speaker 1: hundred billion dollar company. It does a lot of financial games,

1837
01:41:14,880 --> 01:41:20,240
Speaker 1: so share buybacks, dividends, tons of mergers. Domestic baby formula

1838
01:41:20,479 --> 01:41:23,040
Speaker 1: is actually a relatively small part of its bottom line,

1839
01:41:23,280 --> 01:41:26,720
Speaker 1: less than five percent of its revenue. So if that

1840
01:41:26,960 --> 01:41:30,160
Speaker 1: part fails, it doesn't really matter that much to the CEO.

1841
01:41:31,360 --> 01:41:33,760
Speaker 1: That's not a rounding error on the revenue, but it

1842
01:41:33,960 --> 01:41:37,679
Speaker 1: is pretty close. Now here's a headline from Barns, which

1843
01:41:37,720 --> 01:41:41,639
Speaker 1: is a financial magazine, making the point a bit too. Finally,

1844
01:41:43,000 --> 01:41:46,400
Speaker 1: baby formula shortages are bad for parents, they could be

1845
01:41:46,520 --> 01:41:51,200
Speaker 1: good for Abbot stock Ouch. Now it's not just that

1846
01:41:51,280 --> 01:41:54,240
Speaker 1: Abbot is a massive conglomerate that cares more about profits

1847
01:41:54,280 --> 01:41:57,760
Speaker 1: than actually producing the products that people rely on. You'd

1848
01:41:57,840 --> 01:42:00,639
Speaker 1: think that after this fiasco a baby formula, a company

1849
01:42:00,720 --> 01:42:03,679
Speaker 1: that can't deliver baby formula, that it would be chased

1850
01:42:03,720 --> 01:42:07,560
Speaker 1: out of the market by angry parents and stores that

1851
01:42:07,840 --> 01:42:10,760
Speaker 1: couldn't get stuff on the shelves. But here's the thing.

1852
01:42:11,080 --> 01:42:14,760
Speaker 1: Even though Abbott failed spectacularly, it will still maintain, in

1853
01:42:14,880 --> 01:42:18,160
Speaker 1: all likelihood a huge market share in the baby formula

1854
01:42:18,240 --> 01:42:22,960
Speaker 1: market after its factory comes back online. Why. Well, the

1855
01:42:23,040 --> 01:42:27,519
Speaker 1: answer is monopoly power, and again into how it maintains

1856
01:42:27,520 --> 01:42:29,680
Speaker 1: its monopoly power. We have to look at how this

1857
01:42:29,880 --> 01:42:34,160
Speaker 1: highly consolidated industry of baby formula works. So let's do that.

1858
01:42:34,840 --> 01:42:37,040
Speaker 1: The biggest buyer of infant formula in the United States

1859
01:42:37,120 --> 01:42:39,360
Speaker 1: is WICK, which is a government program called the Special

1860
01:42:39,360 --> 01:42:43,280
Speaker 1: Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants, and Children. It's a

1861
01:42:43,320 --> 01:42:45,800
Speaker 1: program run by the Department of Agriculture to make sure

1862
01:42:45,840 --> 01:42:49,000
Speaker 1: that low income women can feed their babies. Roughly half

1863
01:42:49,040 --> 01:42:51,800
Speaker 1: of women get their formula from WICK, and that makes

1864
01:42:51,840 --> 01:42:54,320
Speaker 1: the government a very, very big buyer in the market,

1865
01:42:54,640 --> 01:42:58,080
Speaker 1: which is sometimes called a power buyer. The government in

1866
01:42:58,160 --> 01:43:00,599
Speaker 1: this case is a bit like Amazon or Walmart. It's

1867
01:43:00,640 --> 01:43:03,000
Speaker 1: so powerful it buys so much that it can dictate

1868
01:43:03,120 --> 01:43:05,280
Speaker 1: terms to sellers, since the only way to get your

1869
01:43:05,320 --> 01:43:09,120
Speaker 1: product to customers is to go through that power buyer. Now,

1870
01:43:09,160 --> 01:43:13,240
Speaker 1: the government structures the market state by state. Each state

1871
01:43:13,400 --> 01:43:17,240
Speaker 1: gives a monopoly contract to just one formula producer in

1872
01:43:17,400 --> 01:43:20,000
Speaker 1: return for better pricing in the form of rebates. That's

1873
01:43:20,040 --> 01:43:23,519
Speaker 1: how the wik program handles its purchasing. The government is

1874
01:43:23,560 --> 01:43:26,599
Speaker 1: explicit about this, saying it is handing out quote unquote

1875
01:43:26,840 --> 01:43:31,519
Speaker 1: soule source contracts that allow they only allow women or

1876
01:43:31,560 --> 01:43:35,599
Speaker 1: people who have children to buy formula from one company

1877
01:43:35,720 --> 01:43:38,840
Speaker 1: in most states. Now, this sole source system distorts the

1878
01:43:39,000 --> 01:43:41,360
Speaker 1: entire market because if you're a retailer, if you sell

1879
01:43:41,439 --> 01:43:44,519
Speaker 1: baby formula, it's just not worth having alternative formulas on

1880
01:43:44,600 --> 01:43:47,719
Speaker 1: your shelf if half of the buyers simply cannot purchase

1881
01:43:47,760 --> 01:43:50,760
Speaker 1: those products. As a result, the market in every state

1882
01:43:51,400 --> 01:43:56,200
Speaker 1: tips to the wick supplier. This chart shows what happens

1883
01:43:56,240 --> 01:44:00,280
Speaker 1: to the baby formula market in California when the track

1884
01:44:00,439 --> 01:44:04,200
Speaker 1: changed hands, so one monopoly provider hands off nearly the

1885
01:44:04,400 --> 01:44:08,320
Speaker 1: entire market to another. And these contracts are long term,

1886
01:44:08,360 --> 01:44:11,439
Speaker 1: their four year contracts. So this is a pretty solid

1887
01:44:11,680 --> 01:44:14,880
Speaker 1: market power situation we're talking about. Now, all of this

1888
01:44:15,040 --> 01:44:17,160
Speaker 1: is fine if you're getting for your formula for free

1889
01:44:17,160 --> 01:44:19,960
Speaker 1: from the government, as long as the formula keeps flowing,

1890
01:44:20,240 --> 01:44:24,120
Speaker 1: which we'll talk about in a second. But here's the trick.

1891
01:44:24,520 --> 01:44:28,720
Speaker 1: The formula producer can raise its price on non wik recipients,

1892
01:44:28,920 --> 01:44:32,120
Speaker 1: and they do that. One study showed that to non

1893
01:44:32,200 --> 01:44:36,920
Speaker 1: Wick recipients, they get formula for a higher price, about

1894
01:44:36,960 --> 01:44:40,600
Speaker 1: twenty six to thirty five percent cost higher than it

1895
01:44:40,640 --> 01:44:43,439
Speaker 1: would be if there weren't these wig subsidies in the market.

1896
01:44:43,520 --> 01:44:46,720
Speaker 1: This is called the spillover effect. One formula maker gets

1897
01:44:46,760 --> 01:44:49,400
Speaker 1: to control all the shelf space, they raise the prices

1898
01:44:49,479 --> 01:44:52,519
Speaker 1: on people that are not subsidized by the government. Now,

1899
01:44:53,040 --> 01:44:55,800
Speaker 1: that spillover effect is why it makes sense for a

1900
01:44:55,880 --> 01:44:58,320
Speaker 1: formula maker to give a low price to the government.

1901
01:44:58,400 --> 01:45:01,599
Speaker 1: They make it up elsewhere. Okay, now let's go back

1902
01:45:01,600 --> 01:45:05,720
Speaker 1: to the shortage. Reporter Helena Bodemiller Aviage, who has been

1903
01:45:05,840 --> 01:45:08,320
Speaker 1: all over this scandal, pointed out a few weeks ago

1904
01:45:08,720 --> 01:45:11,719
Speaker 1: that we really don't have kind of a national problem

1905
01:45:12,080 --> 01:45:15,360
Speaker 1: with enough formula. This is sort of the basic formula.

1906
01:45:15,680 --> 01:45:18,000
Speaker 1: What she said was the average in stock rate is

1907
01:45:18,040 --> 01:45:20,760
Speaker 1: currently about seventy nine percent across the US, far below

1908
01:45:20,800 --> 01:45:23,080
Speaker 1: the pre pandemic norms of ninety five percent, but not

1909
01:45:23,280 --> 01:45:26,840
Speaker 1: critically low. The shortage, in other words, isn't just even

1910
01:45:26,960 --> 01:45:30,800
Speaker 1: primarily a production problem. It's a regional distribution problem. Now

1911
01:45:30,920 --> 01:45:35,000
Speaker 1: this is oversimplifying. There are certain specialty formulas that the

1912
01:45:35,040 --> 01:45:37,880
Speaker 1: Sturgis plant really was the sole source producer for, and

1913
01:45:37,960 --> 01:45:41,200
Speaker 1: those are the shortage there is really critical. But broadly speaking,

1914
01:45:41,600 --> 01:45:43,640
Speaker 1: when you can't get formula on the shelves, it's more

1915
01:45:43,640 --> 01:45:47,120
Speaker 1: of a regional distribution problem. Now, there are shortages in

1916
01:45:47,160 --> 01:45:50,599
Speaker 1: specific states like Tennessee and Missouri because these are Abbot states.

1917
01:45:50,640 --> 01:45:53,120
Speaker 1: Abbot has contracts that let the firm control the market

1918
01:45:53,160 --> 01:45:56,360
Speaker 1: in those states. So it's hard to move formula into

1919
01:45:56,400 --> 01:46:00,120
Speaker 1: Abbot states even if non Abbot formula is available or

1920
01:46:00,160 --> 01:46:04,120
Speaker 1: all the infrastructure, all the bureaucracy is set up for

1921
01:46:04,320 --> 01:46:09,200
Speaker 1: that particular formula producer. Now, certainly this program, this wik program,

1922
01:46:09,320 --> 01:46:12,320
Speaker 1: the specific way that it buys formula keeps players out

1923
01:46:12,360 --> 01:46:16,439
Speaker 1: of the market. Here's Congresswoman and Custer asking Scott fitz

1924
01:46:16,720 --> 01:46:19,280
Speaker 1: from the Gerber products division at Nesle, which is a

1925
01:46:19,360 --> 01:46:22,840
Speaker 1: small player in our market, whether they would compete if

1926
01:46:22,920 --> 01:46:26,479
Speaker 1: this WICK purchasing system operated differently. Let's take a listen.

1927
01:46:26,560 --> 01:46:28,479
Speaker 1: This back and forth really gets to the heart of

1928
01:46:28,600 --> 01:46:32,760
Speaker 1: the monopoly distribution problem. Thank you, would it change your

1929
01:46:32,960 --> 01:46:37,080
Speaker 1: business plans generally overall? And this is hypothetical, but I

1930
01:46:37,120 --> 01:46:41,160
Speaker 1: think it's something we need to consider if the women,

1931
01:46:41,280 --> 01:46:45,600
Speaker 1: Infants and Children formula was not a sole source, but

1932
01:46:45,800 --> 01:46:48,880
Speaker 1: if you could participate in that program, would that make

1933
01:46:48,920 --> 01:46:53,720
Speaker 1: a difference in your business model? Well, I can tell you,

1934
01:46:53,840 --> 01:46:57,920
Speaker 1: as again a small player in the US market, it's

1935
01:46:57,960 --> 01:47:01,320
Speaker 1: difficult for us to compete against two two larger competitors.

1936
01:47:03,320 --> 01:47:07,680
Speaker 1: And if you had a larger potential market, would you

1937
01:47:07,760 --> 01:47:13,519
Speaker 1: see growth in Gerber production of baby formula? As you're

1938
01:47:13,640 --> 01:47:18,280
Speaker 1: probably aware, Nestley is a large manufacturer of infant formula globally,

1939
01:47:18,520 --> 01:47:22,679
Speaker 1: and if we saw the market opportunity here, I'm sure

1940
01:47:22,760 --> 01:47:26,880
Speaker 1: we would invest to satisfy that need opportunity. So there

1941
01:47:26,920 --> 01:47:29,560
Speaker 1: we go. The WIG program with the government as a

1942
01:47:29,680 --> 01:47:33,559
Speaker 1: power buyer, is keeping players even globally, really big players

1943
01:47:33,840 --> 01:47:39,840
Speaker 1: like Nestley out of our markets. That reduces resiliency, increases concentration. Okay,

1944
01:47:39,920 --> 01:47:42,320
Speaker 1: but it's not all a distribution problem. There is still

1945
01:47:42,600 --> 01:47:45,280
Speaker 1: the factory shutdown which sparked the whole problem. Sparked the

1946
01:47:45,320 --> 01:47:49,280
Speaker 1: whole crisis, and that brings us to the regulator, the

1947
01:47:49,360 --> 01:47:53,120
Speaker 1: Food and Drug Administration. Now, the FDA has a mandate.

1948
01:47:53,160 --> 01:47:57,080
Speaker 1: They're supposed to ensure that baby formula doesn't harm your baby. Right,

1949
01:47:57,680 --> 01:48:00,320
Speaker 1: It's not really their job to make sure that baby

1950
01:48:00,400 --> 01:48:03,720
Speaker 1: formula is either cheap or available. They just have to

1951
01:48:03,800 --> 01:48:06,960
Speaker 1: make sure it's safe. Whether that's a good mandate or not.

1952
01:48:07,200 --> 01:48:10,120
Speaker 1: That's the way that they think about their job. The

1953
01:48:10,280 --> 01:48:13,800
Speaker 1: FDA makes it really hard to get into the industry. Okay,

1954
01:48:13,880 --> 01:48:16,160
Speaker 1: So let's give you an example. As a regulator, this

1955
01:48:16,280 --> 01:48:18,559
Speaker 1: is what they do to new entrants. There's a company

1956
01:48:18,640 --> 01:48:22,680
Speaker 1: called Bobby, which makes European style formula. Now, Bobby is

1957
01:48:22,760 --> 01:48:24,880
Speaker 1: the first firm to come into the market in five years.

1958
01:48:25,280 --> 01:48:27,599
Speaker 1: It was a rough road getting started. The firm faced

1959
01:48:27,640 --> 01:48:30,719
Speaker 1: a recall and a shutdown purely for manufacturing in Germany,

1960
01:48:30,960 --> 01:48:32,479
Speaker 1: and it had to go through millions of dollars of

1961
01:48:32,560 --> 01:48:34,799
Speaker 1: capital and a steep learning curve to get its product

1962
01:48:34,840 --> 01:48:37,559
Speaker 1: accepted by the FDA. Now that seems kind of nuts, right,

1963
01:48:38,040 --> 01:48:40,360
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a consolidated market, and here's a new entrant.

1964
01:48:40,560 --> 01:48:44,120
Speaker 1: Isn't that good? Wouldn't you want that? Yes, But there's

1965
01:48:44,120 --> 01:48:47,559
Speaker 1: a reason the FDA is skeptical. In the nineteen seventies,

1966
01:48:48,880 --> 01:48:51,960
Speaker 1: baby formulas without adequate nutrition led to weight loss and

1967
01:48:52,040 --> 01:48:55,320
Speaker 1: lifelong brain damage for hundreds of babies. So Congress passed

1968
01:48:55,360 --> 01:48:58,320
Speaker 1: a law with very specific standards on what nutrients need

1969
01:48:58,439 --> 01:49:00,960
Speaker 1: to be in formula. That's why the FDA makes it

1970
01:49:01,120 --> 01:49:04,080
Speaker 1: very hard for new players. There's zero incentive for regulators

1971
01:49:04,120 --> 01:49:06,360
Speaker 1: to let new firms into the baby formula market when

1972
01:49:06,720 --> 01:49:10,360
Speaker 1: in their view, there are already excellent quality companies serving

1973
01:49:10,400 --> 01:49:14,040
Speaker 1: the markets, such as Abbott Labs and me Johnson. Now

1974
01:49:14,200 --> 01:49:17,120
Speaker 1: this was of course short sighted. Baby formulas twice as

1975
01:49:17,160 --> 01:49:19,919
Speaker 1: expensive in the US as in Europe. But like the shortage,

1976
01:49:20,320 --> 01:49:23,680
Speaker 1: that's not the FDA's problem. Well that's the way that

1977
01:49:23,760 --> 01:49:26,920
Speaker 1: they think about it. Another issue is that the FDA,

1978
01:49:27,240 --> 01:49:31,040
Speaker 1: well really hard on new players, is too deferential to incumbents.

1979
01:49:31,720 --> 01:49:33,920
Speaker 1: Baby formula made by the big guys in the US

1980
01:49:34,000 --> 01:49:37,759
Speaker 1: is full of dangerous brain altering heavy metals. One organization

1981
01:49:37,880 --> 01:49:41,559
Speaker 1: called Healthy Babies healthy Futures tested thirteen different baby formulas

1982
01:49:41,600 --> 01:49:45,400
Speaker 1: and every single one had detectable levels of arsenic, Cadmian lead,

1983
01:49:45,600 --> 01:49:48,280
Speaker 1: and or mercury. This is bad for your brain. It's

1984
01:49:48,400 --> 01:49:51,800
Speaker 1: really bad for newborn's brains who are developing very quickly.

1985
01:49:52,560 --> 01:49:55,000
Speaker 1: So there are huge problems at the FDA, such as underfunding,

1986
01:49:55,040 --> 01:49:57,519
Speaker 1: a lack of authority to compel data from firms that regulates,

1987
01:49:57,720 --> 01:50:01,080
Speaker 1: and a general sense of powerlessnessness among regulators. There's also

1988
01:50:01,160 --> 01:50:04,200
Speaker 1: institutional problems that the FDA. The medical part is cool,

1989
01:50:04,600 --> 01:50:07,880
Speaker 1: the food stuff not so much. So. The medical people

1990
01:50:08,000 --> 01:50:09,800
Speaker 1: kind of run the show and they give short shrift

1991
01:50:09,880 --> 01:50:13,360
Speaker 1: to things to food and infant formula is actually a food.

1992
01:50:13,800 --> 01:50:17,240
Speaker 1: But really, the FDA isn't a primary villain here. In

1993
01:50:17,280 --> 01:50:20,839
Speaker 1: September of last year, the FDA inspected Abbot's Sturgis factory

1994
01:50:21,080 --> 01:50:23,439
Speaker 1: and they found it had old and dirty equipment, leaky

1995
01:50:23,520 --> 01:50:26,479
Speaker 1: water towers, employees worked dirty shoes, and environments that were

1996
01:50:26,520 --> 01:50:29,240
Speaker 1: supposed to be sterile, and the FDA actually told Abbot

1997
01:50:29,280 --> 01:50:32,000
Speaker 1: to fix these problems, but the firm did not. Instead,

1998
01:50:32,360 --> 01:50:36,120
Speaker 1: Abbot falsified records to see regulators had bad product tracing

1999
01:50:36,320 --> 01:50:40,880
Speaker 1: and did not fix problems after discovery, a whistleblower went

2000
01:50:40,920 --> 01:50:44,040
Speaker 1: to the FDA in October. The FDA didn't really bothered

2001
01:50:44,040 --> 01:50:47,439
Speaker 1: to even interview that whistleblower until December, but the next month,

2002
01:50:47,520 --> 01:50:50,640
Speaker 1: from January to March, the FDA did investigate again, and

2003
01:50:50,760 --> 01:50:53,920
Speaker 1: they found three hundred and ten documented water leaks that

2004
01:50:54,040 --> 01:50:56,960
Speaker 1: could have allowed bacteria to grow into the formula. The

2005
01:50:57,040 --> 01:51:00,519
Speaker 1: equipment that turns liquid into powder spray dryers, which is

2006
01:51:00,560 --> 01:51:04,520
Speaker 1: a critical step for baby formula, had apparently been deteriorating

2007
01:51:04,640 --> 01:51:08,280
Speaker 1: since twenty eighteen, so this problem is long standing. The

2008
01:51:08,439 --> 01:51:11,720
Speaker 1: FDA also found that when Abbot got complaints, they didn't investigate,

2009
01:51:11,960 --> 01:51:14,519
Speaker 1: or if they did, they closed the investigation without finding

2010
01:51:14,560 --> 01:51:18,080
Speaker 1: a root cause for the reported illness associated with bacterial infection.

2011
01:51:18,600 --> 01:51:20,920
Speaker 1: The FDA when they shut down the factory, they knew

2012
01:51:20,960 --> 01:51:23,240
Speaker 1: there would be a shortage, but they shut it down

2013
01:51:23,280 --> 01:51:26,120
Speaker 1: anyway to force Abbot to clean it up. That's really

2014
01:51:26,200 --> 01:51:28,519
Speaker 1: the only authority that they had. What else could they

2015
01:51:28,600 --> 01:51:30,640
Speaker 1: do when Abbot refused to clean up their factory, And

2016
01:51:30,680 --> 01:51:32,519
Speaker 1: the only choice they had was to either close the

2017
01:51:32,600 --> 01:51:35,920
Speaker 1: factory or let Abbot continue to produce at clearly what

2018
01:51:36,200 --> 01:51:41,040
Speaker 1: was a substandard facility. Now from Abbot's perspective because they

2019
01:51:41,240 --> 01:51:43,400
Speaker 1: have an argument on this. They claimed that the strain

2020
01:51:43,439 --> 01:51:46,880
Speaker 1: of bacteria that killed those babies wasn't specifically traced back

2021
01:51:46,920 --> 01:51:49,479
Speaker 1: to their factory, and that is true. None of the

2022
01:51:49,520 --> 01:51:51,800
Speaker 1: five strains found at the factory were in the cans

2023
01:51:51,840 --> 01:51:54,560
Speaker 1: of food that the babies ate, but that might be

2024
01:51:54,760 --> 01:51:57,759
Speaker 1: because no one was really looking when that particular baby

2025
01:51:57,840 --> 01:52:01,559
Speaker 1: formula was produced and distributed. The FDA couldn't compel Abbot

2026
01:52:01,680 --> 01:52:05,080
Speaker 1: to hand over samples or data. Remember, Abbot wasn't investigating

2027
01:52:05,120 --> 01:52:07,640
Speaker 1: when it got complaints, and the FDA only inspected a

2028
01:52:07,720 --> 01:52:11,400
Speaker 1: few different times, largely relying on Abbot's own records. So

2029
01:52:11,479 --> 01:52:13,959
Speaker 1: it's likely there were hundreds of different types of that bacteria,

2030
01:52:14,240 --> 01:52:16,720
Speaker 1: but no one was collecting evidence or samples at the time,

2031
01:52:16,760 --> 01:52:20,799
Speaker 1: and it's obviously too late. Now the company is clearly

2032
01:52:20,960 --> 01:52:23,519
Speaker 1: in big trouble, violated a host of different laws, and

2033
01:52:23,600 --> 01:52:26,040
Speaker 1: even Nancy Pelosi said, I think there might be a

2034
01:52:26,160 --> 01:52:29,559
Speaker 1: need for an indictment. That's the backstory, that's the scandal.

2035
01:52:30,360 --> 01:52:34,320
Speaker 1: What about the immediate problem, what's happening now to fix it, Well,

2036
01:52:34,880 --> 01:52:37,160
Speaker 1: we obviously need the administration to move formula where it

2037
01:52:37,240 --> 01:52:40,120
Speaker 1: needs to go. Open imports temporarily move supply around the

2038
01:52:40,160 --> 01:52:44,960
Speaker 1: country while allowing Wick recipients to buy non contract brands. Fortunately,

2039
01:52:45,080 --> 01:52:48,240
Speaker 1: that's all actually happening. The Bidy administration used the Defense

2040
01:52:48,280 --> 01:52:51,839
Speaker 1: Production Act as well as military aircraft to import formula

2041
01:52:51,920 --> 01:52:54,400
Speaker 1: from Europe and move it around the country. The USDA

2042
01:52:54,520 --> 01:52:58,040
Speaker 1: is letting Wick recipients get non ABBOT formula. Abbot is cooperating.

2043
01:52:58,560 --> 01:53:02,240
Speaker 1: The Biden administration was late monthsly, but their actions are

2044
01:53:02,800 --> 01:53:06,000
Speaker 1: now actually working. I think the shortage will dissipate at

2045
01:53:06,040 --> 01:53:09,200
Speaker 1: some point, relatively soon now. On a broader level, though,

2046
01:53:09,360 --> 01:53:12,160
Speaker 1: what's important to recognize is that the shortage problem isn't

2047
01:53:12,280 --> 01:53:15,639
Speaker 1: just a baby formula crisis. We all remember nurses wearing

2048
01:53:15,680 --> 01:53:18,920
Speaker 1: garbage bags and ventilator shortages. We've had shortages of everything

2049
01:53:18,960 --> 01:53:22,360
Speaker 1: from ocean shipping containers to chlorine tablets, to railroad capacity,

2050
01:53:22,439 --> 01:53:26,599
Speaker 1: to black pipe to spicey chicken breasts, to specialize plastic

2051
01:53:26,680 --> 01:53:30,840
Speaker 1: bags necessary for making vaccines. Shortages today, and this is

2052
01:53:30,880 --> 01:53:33,240
Speaker 1: true for fifteen years, but it was accelerated by COVID

2053
01:53:33,640 --> 01:53:37,720
Speaker 1: are common in America. Last Sunday, Sixty Minutes did a

2054
01:53:37,800 --> 01:53:42,680
Speaker 1: piece on shortages of hundreds of pharmaceuticals in hospitals, basic pharmaceuticals,

2055
01:53:42,800 --> 01:53:47,280
Speaker 1: things like chemo drugs for kids, stuff that's not expensive. This, too,

2056
01:53:47,680 --> 01:53:50,760
Speaker 1: is a story of power buyers handing out soul source

2057
01:53:50,840 --> 01:53:53,720
Speaker 1: contracts in return for rebates, which then fosters thinned out

2058
01:53:53,760 --> 01:53:57,320
Speaker 1: supply chains. In the case of these medical supplies and pharmaceuticals,

2059
01:53:57,640 --> 01:54:00,800
Speaker 1: the power buyer isn't the government. A small number of

2060
01:54:00,880 --> 01:54:04,200
Speaker 1: corporations in this case, they're called group purchasing organizations, and

2061
01:54:04,240 --> 01:54:06,639
Speaker 1: these are firms you've never heard of. They're like Visiant

2062
01:54:06,720 --> 01:54:09,559
Speaker 1: or Premiere or red Oak, who manage an aggregate three

2063
01:54:09,600 --> 01:54:14,120
Speaker 1: hundred billion dollars of hospital purchasing or generic pharmaceutical purchasing

2064
01:54:14,200 --> 01:54:17,920
Speaker 1: for those hospitals. Now, these power buyers middlemen really do

2065
01:54:18,040 --> 01:54:20,360
Speaker 1: the same thing the government does with baby formula. They

2066
01:54:20,439 --> 01:54:23,800
Speaker 1: hand out soul source contracts in return for rebates. Make

2067
01:54:23,840 --> 01:54:25,840
Speaker 1: a lot of money doing it too. But of course

2068
01:54:25,920 --> 01:54:29,799
Speaker 1: this consolidates supply chains, so there's only one or two producers.

2069
01:54:29,880 --> 01:54:32,400
Speaker 1: That is what a soul source contract means. You are

2070
01:54:32,480 --> 01:54:35,320
Speaker 1: the only producer. The problem is when there's a problem

2071
01:54:35,400 --> 01:54:40,320
Speaker 1: at the factory of a soul source producer making something boom,

2072
01:54:40,680 --> 01:54:44,000
Speaker 1: you have a shortage. Shortages in other words, are a

2073
01:54:44,080 --> 01:54:48,040
Speaker 1: monopoly problem. And this is accelerated when you're actually praying

2074
01:54:48,120 --> 01:54:50,520
Speaker 1: on those suppliers and charging lots of fees, because all

2075
01:54:50,520 --> 01:54:52,360
Speaker 1: of a sudden you don't necessarily have enough money to

2076
01:54:52,440 --> 01:54:55,480
Speaker 1: maintain your factory, and then you have safety issues, and

2077
01:54:55,560 --> 01:54:57,440
Speaker 1: then boom, the FDA is in there, and that's why

2078
01:54:57,520 --> 01:55:02,640
Speaker 1: we have hundreds of pharmaceuticals in shortage. Anyway, in the

2079
01:55:02,720 --> 01:55:06,760
Speaker 1: hearing on baby formula this week, FDA Commissioner Robert Califf

2080
01:55:06,960 --> 01:55:10,000
Speaker 1: brought up this sixty minute story several times. There are

2081
01:55:10,080 --> 01:55:12,920
Speaker 1: medical shortages across the board, he said, and noted that

2082
01:55:13,080 --> 01:55:17,080
Speaker 1: industry fought bitterly against the agency when it tried to

2083
01:55:17,160 --> 01:55:20,320
Speaker 1: get more of his ability into supply chains. The monopolis,

2084
01:55:20,400 --> 01:55:24,160
Speaker 1: whether Abbot or whether Visiant, they know where their bread

2085
01:55:24,240 --> 01:55:27,400
Speaker 1: is buttered, and they want to keep their market power. Okay,

2086
01:55:27,480 --> 01:55:30,120
Speaker 1: so what do we need to do to end these shortages? Well,

2087
01:55:30,840 --> 01:55:32,760
Speaker 1: we have to take on the power buyers that run

2088
01:55:32,800 --> 01:55:36,560
Speaker 1: our economy using soul source contracts, market power, and rebates.

2089
01:55:37,040 --> 01:55:40,440
Speaker 1: It's not that hard to do. First, ban exclusive contracts

2090
01:55:40,480 --> 01:55:44,600
Speaker 1: and predatory rebates. Frankly, this is already in statute in

2091
01:55:44,680 --> 01:55:48,320
Speaker 1: the Clayton Act. Hasn't really been enforced, but it's in there.

2092
01:55:48,320 --> 01:55:52,080
Speaker 1: It could be enforced in certain cases like wig or

2093
01:55:52,520 --> 01:55:56,080
Speaker 1: exemptions from anti kickback rules for GPOs. Congress actually has

2094
01:55:56,120 --> 01:56:00,480
Speaker 1: to act statutorily. Second, breakup power buyers were however they are,

2095
01:56:00,680 --> 01:56:02,920
Speaker 1: most of them are a result of mergers. Anyway. You

2096
01:56:03,000 --> 01:56:05,520
Speaker 1: can use anti trust law to do that. But Congress

2097
01:56:05,760 --> 01:56:08,640
Speaker 1: could help by strengthening anti trust law or merger law,

2098
01:56:08,960 --> 01:56:11,320
Speaker 1: or just going into specific sectors and breaking things up.

2099
01:56:11,800 --> 01:56:15,800
Speaker 1: So finally, pass a law, and this is probably you know,

2100
01:56:15,960 --> 01:56:17,760
Speaker 1: a short term fix that would do a lot of good.

2101
01:56:18,600 --> 01:56:20,920
Speaker 1: Pass a law that says that any life essential good,

2102
01:56:21,040 --> 01:56:24,040
Speaker 1: essentially anything regulated by the FDA right which is food

2103
01:56:24,120 --> 01:56:28,680
Speaker 1: and drugs life essential can't be sole source. No large

2104
01:56:28,760 --> 01:56:31,640
Speaker 1: buyer can purchase more than say twenty or thirty percent

2105
01:56:31,680 --> 01:56:35,240
Speaker 1: of its supply of any such commodity from any one supplier.

2106
01:56:36,000 --> 01:56:39,240
Speaker 1: That would immediately diversify supply chains and it would mitigate

2107
01:56:39,280 --> 01:56:42,560
Speaker 1: shortages really quickly. Now there needs to be some reform

2108
01:56:42,600 --> 01:56:44,480
Speaker 1: of the FDA as well. But the key here is

2109
01:56:44,520 --> 01:56:47,680
Speaker 1: to understand that the problem is in the market structure,

2110
01:56:47,800 --> 01:56:52,200
Speaker 1: in the monopolization. It's not just a regulatory issue. Now

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01:56:52,280 --> 01:56:54,600
Speaker 1: here's the thing. These shortages are relatively new. They started

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01:56:54,680 --> 01:56:56,720
Speaker 1: in kind of the mid two thousands, two thousand and

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01:56:56,720 --> 01:56:59,360
Speaker 1: four or five six or so, as monopolization gains steam.

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01:57:00,040 --> 01:57:03,400
Speaker 1: America didn't used to be a society with regular shortages

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01:57:03,440 --> 01:57:05,600
Speaker 1: of vital goods. And if you want some hope out

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01:57:05,640 --> 01:57:08,520
Speaker 1: of this situation, just remember it doesn't have to be

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Speaker 1: this way. Thanks for watching this big breakdown on the

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Speaker 1: Breaking Points channel. If you'd like to know more about

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01:57:13,640 --> 01:57:16,240
Speaker 1: big business and how our economy really works, you can

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Speaker 1: sign up below for my market power focused newsletter Big

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01:57:19,360 --> 01:57:21,320
Speaker 1: in the description, Have a good one,