1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,400 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of by 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 1: heart Radiobu. Hey, are you welcome to Stuff to Blow 3 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:17,280 Speaker 1: your Mind? My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, 4 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:19,119 Speaker 1: and we're back with part two of our talk about 5 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: nails Fingernails Toenails. In the last episode, we talked about 6 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: how fast nails grow, what influences how fast they grow, 7 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:32,479 Speaker 1: some strange decades long self experimentation projects on the measurement 8 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:34,639 Speaker 1: of nails. And this time we're going to get out 9 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: of some of that scientific minutia and jump into the 10 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: weirder world of nails and the role that nails and 11 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:46,239 Speaker 1: hair play in a lot of very very surprising and 12 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 1: interesting magical and religious beliefs. Yeah, and it it makes 13 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 1: sense that we would since the nails that we look 14 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: down at every day, that we you know, find ourselves 15 00:00:56,240 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: absent mindedly feeling, uh that that in fact enhance our 16 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: ability to engage physically with the world. They are strange 17 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 1: to behold. Like we said before, they're both alive and 18 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 1: dead at the same time, at least as you know, 19 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: in the way that we we think of them. You know, 20 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 1: they they're obviously a part of our body, uh, and 21 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 1: yet they feel slightly external. You know that they are 22 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 1: these things that are like clause but not clause. So 23 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: it makes sense that we would have some kind of 24 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:29,040 Speaker 1: complicated magical ideas at times about what they are and 25 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: what they do. Yeah, and I think some of the 26 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 1: magical and religious ideas are going to connect with something 27 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:37,760 Speaker 1: that we talked about in the last episode, which was 28 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 1: this the strange thing I was observing about how our 29 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 1: hard body parts, the hard external parts like teeth and nails, 30 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: though you would expect them to be sort of like 31 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: the most uh, I don't know what you would call 32 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: like the most brutally disposable parts of our bodies, because 33 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 1: they're hard. You know, they're like what you put out 34 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: front in defense or attack. But in fact we've got 35 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 1: these kind of vulnerability trauma obsessions with these parts of 36 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 1: our bodies. Like if you just start worrying about what 37 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 1: could go wrong with your body, how you could be injured, 38 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 1: how it could be damaged, a lot of the natural 39 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:17,079 Speaker 1: places that people go to go to worry about these 40 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 1: things our teeth and nails, absolutely, and that's that's why 41 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: towards the end of the at the last episode, we 42 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:27,359 Speaker 1: started talking a little bit about Glenn Danzig's fingernails and 43 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 1: about how, at least in some music videos or posters 44 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 1: that I kind of have remember um from my my 45 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 1: teenage years, I recall that he had sharpened fingernails, and 46 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 1: I would wonder to myself, well, what purpose did those have? 47 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 1: And indeed, you know, would sharpen fingernails age you in 48 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 1: in fights or something? Because I also remember, like Stephen 49 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 1: King novels and short stories that I also was reading 50 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 1: at the time, you'd occasionally have a character show up 51 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 1: that is sharpened their teeth down to to file points 52 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: um or or perhaps even has some sort of like 53 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:03,640 Speaker 1: sharpened ginger nails, I guess, and uh, and it brings 54 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 1: them to wonder like would there be any kind of 55 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 1: actual combat or defensive advantage to that sort of thing, 56 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: And we we mostly decided that there would not really be. Yes, 57 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:14,799 Speaker 1: you can scratch your way out of a out of 58 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: a scrape here and there, but there's also a big 59 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:21,640 Speaker 1: possibility to damage your your fingernails if you're trying to 60 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 1: use like sharpened fingernails to attack somebody. More than likely, 61 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: if you encounter somebody with really gnarly looking fingernails, that 62 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:32,519 Speaker 1: have been sharpened to a point or or indeed, um uh, 63 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 1: you know, just look seemingly intentionally creepy. They probably are 64 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 1: trying to look at least a little bit like nos Ferato, right, 65 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 1: And so this vampire association with long nails. In fact, 66 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 1: we were just talking about this with Seth the other day, 67 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: Uh and and uh Seth. Seth was sharing with us 68 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 1: the idea that, you know, it's possible that the association 69 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 1: between long fingernails and vampires could come from the idea 70 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: that often in the old days, you might and up 71 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 1: if you've you've exhumed a body from the graveyard and 72 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 1: you notice that their nails look a little bit long, 73 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 1: and so you think, wait a minute, are they still 74 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 1: alive in some way or they're getting up and roaming 75 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 1: around and still growing body tissues. Yeah, I feel like 76 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: this has come up on the show in the past before, 77 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:19,160 Speaker 1: and it's certainly it goes beyond the world of mere vampires. 78 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 1: We talked about it a bit in the episode where 79 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 1: we talked about the Kappa, the Japanese water demon um 80 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:31,160 Speaker 1: where you have varying monstrous conceptions in the human imagination 81 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:35,359 Speaker 1: that are based upon an analysis of a physical death 82 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 1: to see what happens to the body after it dies 83 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 1: and the seeming changes that take place in the body. 84 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: And in the case of the vampire, yeah, it's like 85 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: the bloated form. Uh. The impression at least that the 86 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 1: hair is still growing, the impression that the nails are 87 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:53,119 Speaker 1: still growing. So if you ask the question is that true, 88 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,160 Speaker 1: the answer is no, It is not true that hair 89 00:04:56,400 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 1: and fingernails continue to grow after death. Uh, at least 90 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 1: not to any significant degree. Now, if the nails in 91 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:05,840 Speaker 1: the hair don't keep growing after death, that that does 92 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 1: leave the question of why so many people thought that 93 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:10,160 Speaker 1: that was the case. Why Why would you look at 94 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 1: a corpse and think that its nails appear long? And 95 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: the most common explanation for this tends to be based 96 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: on the dehydration of the corps. That as the body 97 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 1: begins to decompose, it loses a lot of moisture, which 98 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:25,119 Speaker 1: causes the retraction of the skin tissues around the finger 99 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 1: nails and around the nail plate, which makes the nail 100 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: plates look longer because there's there's just less skin around them. Now, 101 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:34,720 Speaker 1: this helps inform more than just our idea of vampires 102 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 1: for starters, it also has factored into the buried alive 103 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:40,720 Speaker 1: panics that have existed at different times. I believe we 104 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 1: we discussed this a bit in an episode of Invention 105 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:48,160 Speaker 1: on various casket innovations. So the idea is, oh, you know, 106 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 1: end up digging up this corpse later, and maybe you 107 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 1: don't assume that they were some sort of undead fiend, 108 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:56,040 Speaker 1: but you might think, oh, my goodness, they were still 109 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:58,720 Speaker 1: alive for some time after we buried them. They must 110 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 1: have been buried alive. And this led to a fashionable 111 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 1: demand in the nineteenth century for caskets with escape hatches 112 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 1: and ways of getting out if you happen to have 113 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 1: been buried alive. Yes, So if you want to catch 114 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 1: up on that, do check out that episode of Invention. 115 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:15,480 Speaker 1: It may still be in the Stuff to Blow your 116 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 1: Mind feed from when we put a bunch of those 117 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 1: out earlier in the year. But if not, you can 118 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 1: find the dedicated fee to Invention. Even though we're not 119 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: putting out new episodes of that show in that feed, 120 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: you'll still find all of those episodes there for your listening. 121 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 1: I think it was a three part last October. Yeah, 122 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:33,160 Speaker 1: that's what it was. Now. In addition to this you'll 123 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: also find various myths and legends just concerned just general 124 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:41,799 Speaker 1: monstrosity in the world. And oftentimes you'll have a monster 125 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:46,360 Speaker 1: that has long fingernails. And this is roughly, you know, 126 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 1: associated with the idea that, okay, long fingernails imply a 127 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:54,920 Speaker 1: wildness to kind of beastial nature of the the entity 128 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 1: or the being in question. Right, what has claws wild animals? Yeah, 129 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:01,719 Speaker 1: And though the long or fingernails become, the more like 130 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 1: the claws of an animal they become. Now, there are 131 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 1: exceptions to this. Long finger nails are sometimes considered fashionable 132 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: for females we see we see a lot of that 133 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: in um in modern culture, but then also you sometimes 134 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 1: see it as a fashion for males as well. Long nails, 135 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: for example, were important symbols of social status at various 136 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 1: points in Chinese history, and they were sometimes painted for 137 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 1: visual effect, but also sometimes the painting or sometimes the 138 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 1: lacquering of the nail was as much about strengthening the 139 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 1: nail as it was about making it look fancy, which 140 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 1: is an interesting point. And apparently this we see echoes 141 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 1: of this and other cultures as well. I think the 142 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 1: ancient Egyptians um are are are thought to have engaged 143 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:48,480 Speaker 1: in this sort of thing as well, strengthening the nail 144 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 1: in order to maintain its elongated uh uh structure. Now, 145 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 1: later on in Chinese history, ornate finger nail guards were 146 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 1: used to protect outer nails. So this might be like 147 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 1: on the pinky finger, for example, and the ring finger 148 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 1: uh and uh. And we're we're talking some pretty ornate 149 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 1: finger coverings here. For instance, the six inch long golden 150 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 1: mail protectors that were worn by the Imperious Dowager Sushi, 151 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: who ruled China for forty three years from eighteen sixty 152 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 1: one until her death in nineteen o eight. If you 153 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: look her up, you can find actual photographs of her 154 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: decked out with these things. Now, Robert, can you describe 155 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: Is this more of like a thimble type covering that 156 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: would go over the end of the finger and extend 157 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 1: out from there, or is it more like that finger 158 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:41,719 Speaker 1: armor stuff that has joints and goes over the whole finger. Um, 159 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: not really joints per se, it is one gets the 160 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: impression of like long tapering golden fingertip covers um. I 161 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 1: think this this sort of thing has also been utilized 162 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:59,199 Speaker 1: in dance in various Asian cultures. Um, yeah, so the 163 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 1: really neat look now in terms of just longer finger 164 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 1: nails in general, the style has also been popular with 165 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:09,959 Speaker 1: males at different times in Chinese history, with longer manicured 166 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 1: nails still having a residual cultural association with higher classes 167 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 1: in society. Uh. One also sees the retention of a long, 168 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:22,840 Speaker 1: pinky finger nail as a signifier of social status. But 169 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 1: then there are also varying levels of when you get 170 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:29,679 Speaker 1: into the actual reasons uh that individuals um, you know, 171 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:34,320 Speaker 1: self identify uh and uh and certainly uh uh explain 172 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 1: that their their pinky nail. They might be what it's 173 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 1: for good luck or you know, it might be there 174 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 1: might be some idea of divinational aspects uh of finger morphology. 175 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: They're various sort of cultural ideas that seemed to be 176 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:51,560 Speaker 1: floating around, um explaining, you know, why one would have 177 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 1: a longer nail if there's a class association that nails are, 178 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 1: you know, for higher social status. I wonder if it 179 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 1: has anything to do with demonstrate the lack of need 180 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 1: to engage in physical or manual labor. Yes, sort of 181 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 1: along the same lines as you know, there are some 182 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 1: cultures I think it was once common in uh in 183 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:13,559 Speaker 1: European culture, for and it was fashionable from men to 184 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: where like long pointy shoes. And one explanation given for 185 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 1: this is well, a long pointy shoe makes you look 186 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 1: rich because it's a kind of shoe that you can't 187 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 1: do any physical work in. Yeah. Yeah, The best explanations 188 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 1: seemed to tie it to this like a long standing 189 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 1: idea that it informs social status. However, I should note 190 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: that I've I've looked into this a couple of times 191 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:37,679 Speaker 1: over the years, and I've never found like a I 192 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:39,559 Speaker 1: have not found not to say it doesn't exist, but 193 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 1: I have never found like a really good paper on 194 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:45,560 Speaker 1: this that really dives in with a lot of the 195 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:48,440 Speaker 1: information out there about this is more informal in nature. 196 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 1: But um, traditional Chinese cultural hierarchies do seem to retain 197 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 1: their power though according to one paper I was looking 198 00:10:57,080 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 1: at Saving Face in China, Modernization, parental usher and plastic 199 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 1: Surgery by Andrew Lyndridge and Choufeng Wang, published in the 200 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: Journal of Consumer Affairs in two thousand and eight. Um, 201 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 1: So you know, basically underlying the idea that you can 202 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:14,559 Speaker 1: you can have these ideas that are still floating around 203 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 1: in society, and perhaps you know, perhaps the rationale for 204 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 1: them isn't you know, uh in an individual's forethought, But 205 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 1: it's just something that survives and is still done and 206 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 1: perhaps on some level still does inform UH that notion 207 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 1: that I have this longer nail, which means I am 208 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 1: of a higher social status and maybe don't have to 209 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 1: engage in as much physical labor. For an historical example 210 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:42,560 Speaker 1: of this getting outside of modern culture, UM, there's a 211 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:44,720 Speaker 1: book that I've I've been fond of for for for 212 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 1: many years titled Tales from a Chinese Studio, and it's 213 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:52,560 Speaker 1: a collection from seventeen forty of these various weird tales 214 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 1: that were compiled by the author uh Pooh song Ling 215 00:11:57,160 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 1: and uh and it's these are wonderful stories, I reckon 216 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 1: and anyone who's even halfway interested in in strange Chinese 217 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:07,440 Speaker 1: ghost stories, you should pick up a copy of this 218 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 1: because some of them are funny, some of them are 219 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:15,559 Speaker 1: just really weird. Um. There's also a certain poetry to them, 220 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: and I understand that if if one is actually reading 221 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 1: these stories uh in Mandarin, uh, they're also there are 222 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 1: also a lot of various illusions that are going to 223 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:29,679 Speaker 1: be lost on the English language translation reader. But they're 224 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:32,719 Speaker 1: still they're still tremendous as translated pieces. I think you've 225 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 1: quoted from it before. I have positive associations with this title. Yeah, 226 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 1: it's a it's a great book, and I think Penguin 227 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:42,560 Speaker 1: has an edition of it. Um. So I was looking 228 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 1: back through that because I'm thinking, Okay, if there's a 229 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 1: good example of a monster with long fingernails, perhaps i'll 230 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 1: find it entails from a Chinese studio. I did not 231 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 1: find it, but I did find this little note um 232 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 1: about a particular line and one of his writings that 233 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:02,119 Speaker 1: I had skipped over before I didn't remember from before. Basically, 234 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:06,960 Speaker 1: uh uh poohsong Ling mentions the Bard of the Long Nails, 235 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 1: which the translators and editors of this Penguin edition identify 236 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 1: as Lee He who lives seven sixty through eight sixteen. 237 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 1: And so he was a late tongue scholar often characterized 238 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 1: as a sort of quote doomed poet with a vision 239 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 1: so intense the world will destroy him if he does 240 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 1: not destroy himself. Whoa. And so the the editors here 241 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 1: they could they compared him to John Keats. That's interesting 242 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 1: because Keats definitely died young, But I don't really think 243 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 1: of him as doom driven in that way. Uh. When 244 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:45,040 Speaker 1: I think of doom driven English poets, I guess I 245 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:48,720 Speaker 1: would think more like Byron or Percy Shelley. Yeah, Lord 246 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:51,599 Speaker 1: Byron definitely comes to mind, right, especially with when it 247 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:54,199 Speaker 1: comes to like a dark bad boy status walking around 248 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 1: a skull goblet and a pet bear on a chain exactly. Uh. 249 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:01,719 Speaker 1: And and interestingly enough, if you look up some of 250 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:06,440 Speaker 1: uh Lee He's translated work, he's sometimes described as this 251 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 1: is from the Amazon description to a nice collection of 252 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: his work. Uh, the bad boy poet of the late 253 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:15,679 Speaker 1: Tang dynasty. Well that I got to hear more from 254 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:17,560 Speaker 1: this bad so it was it was he a bet. 255 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 1: Was the fact that he was a bad boy at 256 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: all related to the perception of him having long nails? Um? Well, yes, 257 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 1: and no, I think, uh when I think this will 258 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 1: maybe become a little more clear, Like, for instance, I 259 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 1: don't think the fact that that he had long nails 260 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: was like the signifying bad boy aspect about him. I 261 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 1: take that to be probably more in common with with 262 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 1: professional scholars of the day, like you know, you're you're 263 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 1: you're a you're a scholar, you're a man of of words. Uh, 264 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 1: you certainly don't need short nails in order to engage 265 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 1: in a bunch of physical labor, like you're a man 266 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 1: of letters. I see that. Being said, he has a 267 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 1: very gothic quality to him. The New Tang History of 268 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 1: ten sixty described him as quote frail and thin, with 269 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 1: eyebrows that met together and long fingernails. He was also 270 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 1: known as the Demon Talent due to his love of 271 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 1: weird and exotic subjects in his writings, and the New 272 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 1: Tang History also said that he quote felt himself already 273 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 1: halfway across the boundary between the living and the dead. 274 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 1: Now that being said, apparently he also wrote about mundane 275 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 1: topics as well, like you know, earth like food and 276 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 1: so forth. So it wasn't just all ghoulish content. Um, 277 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 1: maybe a spooky food yeah, Oh no, I think he generally, 278 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 1: you know, wrote about food and acceptable you know, non 279 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 1: what we would think of in Western terms is of 280 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 1: you know, a non Gothic sense. But anyway, if you 281 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 1: if you look at his work, it is really quite beautiful. Um. 282 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 1: He is probably apparently most famous for this poem Song 283 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 1: of Magic Strings that the editors and translators of the 284 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: pous song ling text include uh. The poem itself was 285 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 1: in selated by John Fordsham in ninety three's Goddesses, Ghosts 286 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 1: and Demons that Collected Poems of lee he He He, which 287 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 1: you can you can buy in like an e book 288 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 1: or physical form. I'm thinking of picking up a copy. 289 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 1: But but here's here's just a little bit from that poem. 290 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 1: Quote blue raccoons are weeping blood as shivering foxes die 291 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: on the ancient wall. A painted dragon tail inlaid with gold. 292 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 1: The rain God is writing it away to an autumn tarn. 293 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 1: Owls that have lived a hundred years turned forest demons 294 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:39,239 Speaker 1: laugh wildly as an emerald fire leaps from their nests. Wow. 295 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 1: That that is electrifying. Man, I've got goose bumps. Yeah. Ye, 296 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 1: Like I say, I think I'm gonna pick up a 297 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: copy for this Halloween season. Um, but there was there 298 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: was another line. When I was looking at the preview 299 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 1: of that actual text of Fordsham wrote quote, lee he 300 00:16:55,360 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: was temperamentally unable to write a conventional social poem. In consequently, 301 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:04,439 Speaker 1: he is very rarely dull. Uh So apparently to to 302 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 1: be like a professional man of words, to be like, 303 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:08,919 Speaker 1: you know, a writer of the day, you had to 304 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 1: engage in a lot of sort of boring, sort of 305 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:14,919 Speaker 1: courtly writing. Uh. The example that he gave was it 306 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:17,920 Speaker 1: was apparently common to sort of to to write to 307 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 1: patrons and compliment them on, say, the birth of a child. 308 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 1: And there's an example of this short poetic poetic piece 309 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 1: that he wrote to such a patron, and he makes 310 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 1: it sound like fortune compares it to the child from 311 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:35,639 Speaker 1: the omen Um about just how he describes this child 312 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:37,879 Speaker 1: as like being able to like see through people, to 313 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: their to their soul or something to that effect. It's 314 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:45,160 Speaker 1: pretty interesting. So I like the idea of this, uh, 315 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:48,439 Speaker 1: this Bard of the Long Nails, who when he tries 316 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 1: to fit in and be like just a boring poet, 317 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: he can't quite do it. He's just a little too weird. 318 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 1: But I should drive home that I don't think the 319 00:17:55,880 --> 00:18:00,080 Speaker 1: Long Nails were the um were the weird thing about him, know, 320 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 1: it was that he would write you a note saying, 321 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:04,359 Speaker 1: congratulations on the birth of your child, who will one 322 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,400 Speaker 1: day flay my soul in the underworld. Yeah, that sort 323 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 1: of thing. Um. So, anyway, I encourage everyone to check 324 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:13,399 Speaker 1: out both of those authors. But but anyway, back back 325 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: to nails. In general, long nails have have apparently sometimes 326 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 1: been seen as a luxury for those of upper classes 327 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:22,639 Speaker 1: in various cultures who don't have to truly labor with 328 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:25,959 Speaker 1: their hands. And I've had a couple of studies at 329 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:29,359 Speaker 1: least that backed this up, such as excessively long fingernails 330 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 1: as a risk factor for upper extremity soft tissue injury 331 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 1: published in two thousand and eight in the Journal of 332 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:38,880 Speaker 1: Occupational and Environmental Medicine, and another paper, Effects of fingernail 333 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 1: linked on finger and hand performance, published in the Journal 334 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:45,119 Speaker 1: hand Therapy back in two thousand and This the second 335 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:49,159 Speaker 1: paper here, recommends keeping fingernails shortened to at least point 336 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:55,720 Speaker 1: five centimeters to quote achieve optimal functional outcomes. Well, I guess, 337 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 1: to be fair, I laughed because I was imagining optimal 338 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 1: functional outcomes of ends just in regular life. But I 339 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 1: guess this is talking about therapy, so that phrasing makes sense. Yes, Yes, 340 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:09,119 Speaker 1: this this paper does seem to be narrowing its focus somewhat. Uh. 341 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:11,439 Speaker 1: And I think it's also worth noting that, you know, 342 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:14,399 Speaker 1: I have, for my own part, I've encountered people with 343 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 1: with very long you know, well, maintained nails. Uh, you know, 344 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,919 Speaker 1: sometimes very fancy looking nails. This seemed quite capable of 345 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 1: manipulating their environment and say an office setting. Uh, though 346 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,200 Speaker 1: perhaps that's not that different from the sort of physical 347 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 1: demands of of of of a scholar in um, you know, 348 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 1: in in in in China of old. Uh. You know, 349 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 1: you're you're still not having to like actually physically dig 350 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:40,239 Speaker 1: in the earth or something to that effect. So so 351 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 1: I'm not sure i'd be interesting to hear from anyone 352 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:45,439 Speaker 1: out there who does, who has had long nails in 353 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 1: the past or keeps them, maintains long nails today, Like 354 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 1: are there things that you find that they get in 355 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 1: the way of or are they just generally not in 356 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 1: the way? Do you sort of adapt I mean obviously, 357 00:19:57,480 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: you know, we we we can adapt our body schema 358 00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 1: to accommodate for any number of of extra things. It 359 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:06,440 Speaker 1: seems like just longer nails. I mean, that's even more 360 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 1: a part of our body than any tool or costume 361 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 1: that we might acquire. All right, it's time to take 362 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:13,639 Speaker 1: a quick break. But when we come back, we can 363 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 1: talk about a demon warship made out of nails. Thank you, 364 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 1: thank you. All right, We're back, and I'm excited for 365 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:24,920 Speaker 1: this job because you were you were about to embark 366 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:28,680 Speaker 1: on a journey and you're you're going to uh tell 367 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:33,920 Speaker 1: us about what maybe the the magical fingernail story par excellence. 368 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:35,880 Speaker 1: I mean, there are a lot of great magical figure 369 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 1: nail stories that I'm about to get into, but this 370 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 1: might be the most most thoroughly mythological one, the one 371 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:45,159 Speaker 1: that's like the most the most like a device in 372 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 1: a story where the nails are sort of the mcguffin. 373 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 1: Though there's also a very good Persian one that we'll 374 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:51,679 Speaker 1: get into. But anyway, so I want to go to 375 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:54,399 Speaker 1: the pros at A. This is a work that tells 376 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:57,480 Speaker 1: us a lot of what we know about ancient Norse 377 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 1: mythology that was written or edited the medieval Icelandic author 378 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 1: Snorri Sturlason. In the prose Edda, there are these collected 379 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 1: literary works that tell many of the stories of Norse mythology, 380 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 1: including the story of Ragnarok, the final Confrontation, the destruction 381 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:18,200 Speaker 1: of the gods at the end of that era and there. 382 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:20,920 Speaker 1: But early on, there's a passage in the prose edit 383 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: that's just talking about ships, just mentioning what kinds of 384 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 1: mythological ships there are, and it mentions one ship in passing, 385 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,200 Speaker 1: calling it the Nagle Far. And it only says a 386 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 1: couple of things about the Nagle Far. It says that 387 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 1: it is in mu spell. Mu Spell is a realm 388 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 1: of fire, the home of the fire giants who you 389 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:43,919 Speaker 1: don't want to mess with. And the passage also mentions 390 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 1: that Naglfar is the largest, meaning the largest of all ships. 391 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:52,359 Speaker 1: So what is this nagle Far the largest of all ships? Well? 392 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:55,400 Speaker 1: Later the author here tells us that the Nagle Far 393 00:21:55,920 --> 00:22:00,160 Speaker 1: will appear over the horizon during the calamity of ragnar Hawk, 394 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 1: when the gods will be destroyed. And the author also 395 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:05,919 Speaker 1: tells us something about its construction. And here I'm going 396 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 1: to quote directly from the work quote the stars shall 397 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 1: be hurled from heaven. Then it shall come to pass 398 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 1: that the earth and the mountains will shake so violently 399 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:19,479 Speaker 1: that trees will be torn up by the roots, and 400 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 1: the mountains will topple down, and all bonds and fetters 401 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 1: will be broken and snapped. The fin ris Wolf gets loose, 402 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:31,400 Speaker 1: the sea rushes over the earth. For the midguard serpent 403 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 1: writhes in giant rage and seeks to gain the land. 404 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:39,159 Speaker 1: The ship that is called nagle Far also becomes loose. 405 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:43,440 Speaker 1: It is made of the nails of dead men. Wherefore 406 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,359 Speaker 1: it is worth warning that when a man dies with 407 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 1: unpaired nails, he supplies a large amount of materials for 408 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 1: the building of this ship, which both gods and men 409 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 1: wish maybe finished as late as possible. But in this 410 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 1: flood nagle Far gets a float. The giant crime is 411 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 1: it's steersman, or there might be hrim h r y m. 412 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 1: But okay, yeah, so it's got it's got giants on it, 413 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,240 Speaker 1: it's got the giant crime or hrim as it's steersman, 414 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,959 Speaker 1: and it's made out of the fingernails and toe nails 415 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 1: of dead men who did not care appropriately for their 416 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 1: nails at the time of death. That is that is 417 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 1: gnarly um. I by the way, I I'm not surprised 418 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 1: at all to learn as well that there is a 419 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 1: a longstanding Swedish black metal band that has naggle far 420 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 1: as It's as its name. They've been active since then 421 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:41,640 Speaker 1: the early nineties. Apparently. Oh wow, I've never heard of him, 422 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 1: But of course, yeah, I mean, in anything, this gnarly 423 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 1: is going to end up as a metal band name. 424 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,879 Speaker 1: But I should also mention that in telling the same story, 425 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,200 Speaker 1: the story of Ragnarok, you know, sort of the destruction 426 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:53,919 Speaker 1: of the gods at the end of at the end 427 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 1: of time, or maybe not of time, at least at 428 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 1: the end of the era, the age of the gods. 429 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:01,119 Speaker 1: Um it is the same. A scene is described in 430 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,239 Speaker 1: the Voluspa, which is an old Norse poem describing a 431 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 1: lot of mythological events that we've mentioned on the show 432 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 1: pretty recently. Actually, I think, wait, which episode did it 433 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,720 Speaker 1: come up in? I cannot recall the context at the moment, 434 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:17,440 Speaker 1: but there's also a quatrain in the Valoospa that mentions it. 435 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,680 Speaker 1: It says, from the east comes crime with shield held 436 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:24,919 Speaker 1: high in giant wrath. Does the serpent writhe or the 437 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:29,919 Speaker 1: waves he twists? And the tawny eagle naws corpses screaming 438 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 1: naggle far is loose. I love I love the idea 439 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,400 Speaker 1: that it's I know this is just me reading into 440 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 1: it perhaps, but if it feels like it's not. It's 441 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 1: not just the bones that are making It's not bones 442 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: that are making up the ship. It is the toe 443 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:47,159 Speaker 1: nails and the fingernails that seem more like the detritus 444 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,679 Speaker 1: of of the the dead body, you know. It seems 445 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 1: like this is like a ship that has been collecting 446 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 1: and assembling, like at the bottom of the universe, throughout 447 00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 1: all of human conflict, you know. And so that that's 448 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 1: why it is only it is only completely finished towards 449 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,400 Speaker 1: the very end of human existence. So there's a paper 450 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:07,520 Speaker 1: I want to talk about, Robert, if you're ready, called 451 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 1: the Treatment of Hair and Fingernails among the Indo Europeans. Oh, yes, 452 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 1: I am ready for this because I've I've read about 453 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 1: certainly nothing on the ship level, the ship building level, 454 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 1: but I've I've read about some of these of these 455 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:24,080 Speaker 1: folk beliefs before. Yeah. So this is a paper by 456 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 1: Bruce Lincoln, who is a scholar of religious studies at 457 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 1: the University of Chicago. He was published in nineteen seventy seven, 458 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:33,120 Speaker 1: and that's worth noting this is an older paper. I'm 459 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 1: citing it because it's still really interesting, but I just 460 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 1: want to flag that it's older because it's possible that 461 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,479 Speaker 1: in the intervening years some of Lincoln's factual assumptions might 462 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 1: have been superseded by more recent anthropological or historical research. 463 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 1: But I think the general thrust of the question he 464 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 1: poses remains and uh, and some of the hypotheses he 465 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: discusses in this article remain extremely interesting. Okay, So he 466 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 1: starts like this quote. One of the important lessons that 467 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,720 Speaker 1: has learned from the study of history of religions is 468 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 1: that there is no act so small or insignificant that 469 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 1: it cannot take on symbolic importance. In certain cultures, it 470 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,440 Speaker 1: is not always an easy task to recognize such symbolically 471 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 1: invested action, although the existence of elaborate rules for behavior 472 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:21,359 Speaker 1: in a given situation may serve as a valuable clue. 473 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 1: And if the identification of such action is sometimes difficult, 474 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:29,119 Speaker 1: the interpretation of a given motion, gesture, or ritual is 475 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: even more delicate. And the example that he gives that 476 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 1: he's going to talk about in this paper is the 477 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 1: extremely careful, meticulous rules governing the treatment of clippings from 478 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: the hair and nails in many cultures and religions throughout 479 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 1: the world, especially in many cultures that are descended from 480 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 1: in some way the ancient speakers of Proto Indo European, 481 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 1: which I'll get into more later. So I'm going to 482 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 1: start by just listing a number of examples that Lincoln 483 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 1: brings up, and then we can go back talk about 484 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:05,119 Speaker 1: possible explanations for where these beliefs and religious practices come from. 485 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:09,680 Speaker 1: So the first one mentioned by Lincoln concerns the hair specifically, 486 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 1: and is it's the right of the child's first haircut 487 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 1: or first tonture, practiced historically by some people of India, 488 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:23,119 Speaker 1: and it's described in the Sankayana Gria Sutra, and the 489 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,679 Speaker 1: Gria Sutras are a number of manuals describing the steps 490 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 1: of various domestic religious ceremonies. So I think specifically the 491 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 1: kind of religious ceremonies that you might perform around the house. 492 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,080 Speaker 1: So this is performed for different children at different ages, 493 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:41,440 Speaker 1: I think also traditionally depending on cast. But the process 494 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:45,360 Speaker 1: goes like this in Lincoln's summary quote, the child's hair 495 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:49,399 Speaker 1: is untangled and anointed and a young cusa shoot is 496 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:53,120 Speaker 1: placed in it, Kusa being the sacred grass of ceremonial. 497 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,439 Speaker 1: His hair is then shaved with a copper razor and 498 00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,440 Speaker 1: placed on a mound of bull dung mixed with kusa 499 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:03,680 Speaker 1: grass that has been prepared to receive the hair. Finally, 500 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 1: and here he quotes directly from translation of the Sankayana 501 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 1: Gria Sutra quote to the northeast in a place covered 502 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 1: with herbs, or in the neighborhood of water, they bury 503 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,359 Speaker 1: the hairs in the earth. So that's interesting to begin with. 504 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,119 Speaker 1: You you have this ritual of at a certain age, 505 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 1: the child's hair is shaved or cut, and then it is, 506 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,920 Speaker 1: in a kind of symbolic ritual way planted within dung 507 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,920 Speaker 1: or within the earth. And there's this association with vegetation 508 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:36,360 Speaker 1: or herbs. Interesting. Now, this may have absolutely no connection 509 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 1: with it. But a while back, I guess, oh man, 510 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,240 Speaker 1: probably more than probably about a year ago, uh, my 511 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 1: son and I had our hair cut at our house 512 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 1: on our our front porch, and afterwards, um uh, the 513 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 1: individual cut our hair encouraged us to take the clippings 514 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 1: and put at least some of them in our garden 515 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 1: um in order to help deter creatures from eating our vegetables. 516 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 1: I wonder if that actually works. I don't know, but 517 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 1: i've I mean, I've heard also similar advice concerning a 518 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 1: little like hair from your pet, like to keep rodent 519 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:11,520 Speaker 1: side of your garden, to put some hair from your cat, 520 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 1: for for for instance, in there which which I mean, 521 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 1: it sounds like it could work. I don't know that 522 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 1: I've I've seen any thing to actually back that up, 523 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,720 Speaker 1: except I haven't noticed any any mice or rats out there. 524 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 1: But then again, um, just because you don't notice them 525 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 1: doesn't mean they're not there. That's interesting. We'll definitely keep 526 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 1: that in mind as we go through a few more 527 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 1: of these examples. So the next one that Lincoln sites 528 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 1: comes from ancient Roman religion. Uh. And this is the 529 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 1: example of the flamand Alice, or the high priest of Jupiter, 530 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 1: the chief god of the Roman pantheon, and the flamand 531 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:50,720 Speaker 1: Alice had numerous ceremonial requirements and restrictions guiding his daily activities. 532 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 1: There were rules about where he had to sleep, there 533 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 1: were rules about what he was supposed to wear, about 534 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 1: what kinds of things he could touch or couldn't touch. 535 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 1: And one of these restrict chins, as reported by the 536 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 1: second century Roman author Aulus Gellius in a text called 537 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 1: Attic Nights, goes like this, and this is with some abridgments. Quote. 538 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 1: The ceremonies placed upon the flamen dialis are many, and 539 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 1: the forbearances are numerous. No one should cut the hair 540 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 1: of the dealis except a free man. The cuttings of 541 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 1: the nails and hair of the dealis are buried in 542 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 1: the earth under a fruitful tree. There are almost the 543 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 1: same ceremonies for the Flamenica de Allie, and I think 544 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,479 Speaker 1: that's the wife of the high priest of Jupiter. And 545 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 1: they say that other different ones are to be observed, 546 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 1: for instance, that she is covered with a dyed gown, 547 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 1: and that in her veil she has the shoot of 548 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 1: a fruitful tree. And there are other similar practices elsewhere 549 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 1: in ancient Roman religion. For example, in the Natural History 550 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 1: Plenty the elder recounts how the vestal virgins are expected 551 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:59,240 Speaker 1: to observe special ceremonies in the disposal of the trimmings 552 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,640 Speaker 1: from their hair uh plenty rights quote Truly, there is 553 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 1: a lotus tree in Rome, in the area of Lucina. 554 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 1: Now this tree is about five hundred years old or older. 555 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:13,040 Speaker 1: Its age is uncertain, and it is called the hairy 556 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:16,440 Speaker 1: one because the hair of the vestal virgins is brought 557 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 1: to it. So note again the kind of rough similarities 558 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 1: with the Indian practice here, the association with vegetation, especially well, 559 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 1: hair is a is a thing that grows out of us, 560 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 1: not unlike a plant, right, or some sort of vine. 561 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 1: And then I guess a lot of this tube just 562 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,760 Speaker 1: has to do with the fact that hair and fingernails 563 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:40,200 Speaker 1: and toenails as well, are these things that are paradoxically 564 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 1: a part of us and yet not a part of us. 565 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 1: And then when we trim them away or cut them away, 566 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 1: they are no longer part of our bodies that they 567 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 1: came from our bodies. And therefore you could you could 568 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 1: see where you could easily lean into this idea that 569 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 1: something appropriate must be done with these parts of ourselves. Yeah, 570 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:00,280 Speaker 1: and we'll get into more about that in the in 571 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 1: the part where we talk about the possible explanations for 572 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:04,680 Speaker 1: these but I want to talk about the next example 573 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 1: Lincoln sites, which is German folkloric practices. He writes that 574 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 1: there are a number of archaic rituals among German people 575 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 1: speaking Germanic languages for dealing with the disposal of clippings 576 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: from the hair and nails. Quote. Thus, in Oldenburg, hair 577 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 1: and nails are wrapped in a cloth and fastened under 578 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 1: a tree three days before the new moon to cure infertility. Similarly, 579 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:33,959 Speaker 1: in Brandenburg, Dooseldorf, Swabia and elsewhere. Hair and nails are 580 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 1: placed in a hole board in a tree, or are 581 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 1: placed on a branch. This is often done when one 582 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 1: suffers from some sort of pain, and the pain is 583 00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 1: said to go with these moving to anyone who comes 584 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 1: close to them. Now, there are some differences here from 585 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,320 Speaker 1: the other examples we already talked about, because, you know, 586 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 1: Lincoln points out, it's important to note that these practices 587 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 1: he just mentioned are targeted towards specific magical outcomes, like 588 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 1: the curing of infertility or the healing of pain, rather 589 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:05,959 Speaker 1: than a sort of free floating ritual without a specific 590 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 1: outcome object. But he notes again the similarity in the 591 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 1: association between hair and nails with plant life. Again, hair 592 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:17,960 Speaker 1: and nails, and then trees and grass and branches. And 593 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 1: then finally one more example, and this one is probably 594 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:25,040 Speaker 1: my favorite one. He draws attention to what is described 595 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 1: in an ancient text in the Avestan language, which is 596 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 1: associated with the ancient Iranian culture and is a foundational 597 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:37,280 Speaker 1: religious text of Zoroastrianism. So this text is known as 598 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 1: the Vindidad or the vidv Dot, and in this writing, 599 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 1: the character of Zoroaster also known as Zarathustra, and I 600 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:51,440 Speaker 1: think Zarathustra is probably the earlier pronunciation. Zarathustra is speaking 601 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 1: to the wise Lord Ahura Mazda, and Zarathustra asks the 602 00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 1: wise lord why it is that the demon named Ayosha, 603 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:05,720 Speaker 1: whose name literally means burning or destruction, Why Aosha harms 604 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:12,360 Speaker 1: and punishes humans? And Ahura Mazda explains as follows, quote truly, 605 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:16,759 Speaker 1: that righteous Zarathustra, when one arranges and cuts his hair 606 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,760 Speaker 1: and clips his nails and then lets them fall into 607 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:24,520 Speaker 1: holes in the earth or into furrows, for by these improprieties, 608 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:30,040 Speaker 1: demons come forth, and from these improprieties monsters come forth 609 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 1: from the earth, which mortals call lice, and which devour 610 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:38,919 Speaker 1: the grain in the fields and the clothes and the closets. Now, 611 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 1: when you must arrange and cut your hair and clip 612 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:45,560 Speaker 1: your nails in the world, Zarathustra. Hereafter you should bear 613 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:50,000 Speaker 1: it ten steps from righteous men, twenty steps from fire, 614 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:55,319 Speaker 1: thirty steps from water, and fifty steps from the barisman, 615 00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:58,920 Speaker 1: which is a bundle of sacred twigs. When it is 616 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:02,279 Speaker 1: laid out, then you should dig a pit here, a 617 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:06,080 Speaker 1: disty deep in hard soil, and a vitasti deep in 618 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,839 Speaker 1: soft soil to that pit. You should bear the cuttings. 619 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:15,439 Speaker 1: Then you should pronounce these words victorious Zarathustra. Now for me, 620 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:19,600 Speaker 1: may Mazda make the plants grow by means of asha, 621 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:23,719 Speaker 1: and Asha means right. Uh. You should plow three or 622 00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 1: six or nine furrows for Zassura vira, meaning good dominion, 623 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:33,239 Speaker 1: and you should recite the Ajuna Vira prayer three or 624 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,719 Speaker 1: six or nine times. So here you're in in this 625 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:41,000 Speaker 1: ancient Zoroastrian text. You're getting this elaborate ritual described for 626 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 1: what you should do with the trimmings from your hair 627 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:47,759 Speaker 1: and nails, and that there are actual, like real demonic 628 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:51,560 Speaker 1: consequences if you do not follow these rituals uh. And 629 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:54,480 Speaker 1: Lincoln points out several things he finds really interesting about 630 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:58,799 Speaker 1: the explanation from the Wise Lord to Zarathustra. So, first 631 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 1: of all, there's the need carry these clippings from hair 632 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:06,320 Speaker 1: and nails away from sources of purification. Remember the mentions 633 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:08,000 Speaker 1: if you've got to carry them this far away from 634 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:11,880 Speaker 1: righteous men, this far away from fire, from water, and 635 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,719 Speaker 1: from the sacred bundle of twigs, because these are all 636 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:18,520 Speaker 1: potentially sources of religious purity. And it seems like there's 637 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:22,879 Speaker 1: a desire to avoid cross contamination of all that purifying 638 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,840 Speaker 1: matter with impure matter that you've just trimmed off of 639 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:29,360 Speaker 1: your body. But then there's also Lincoln points out the 640 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:33,360 Speaker 1: use of troughs to demarcate a sacred space, and then 641 00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 1: also the spontaneous production of monsters from the hair and 642 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:41,160 Speaker 1: nail trimmings that are disposed of incorrectly. And if that 643 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:43,680 Speaker 1: sounds familiar based on stuff we were just talking about, 644 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,920 Speaker 1: isn't that kind of similar to the supposed origin of 645 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:50,520 Speaker 1: the noggle far the nail ship. So in the Ragnarok myth, 646 00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:53,880 Speaker 1: again from Norse religion, this ship is built out of 647 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:57,040 Speaker 1: the nails of dead men as a result of their 648 00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:00,719 Speaker 1: nails not being trimmed and disposed of proper really according 649 00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:03,160 Speaker 1: to the correct rituals. So if you do the wrong 650 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:06,880 Speaker 1: thing with your nails, you make an accidental donation to 651 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:11,040 Speaker 1: the construction of the demons galleon. Oh wow, So this 652 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:12,920 Speaker 1: is this is fascinating cause on one hand, you can 653 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:14,880 Speaker 1: compare a lot of this with just kind of a 654 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:19,640 Speaker 1: basic understanding that this is bio waste, and there's there 655 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 1: there's an appropriate and an inappropriate way to dispose of 656 00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,000 Speaker 1: bio waste. But then of course we have this this 657 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:28,760 Speaker 1: whole magical domain as well of monsters and monsters ships 658 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:32,319 Speaker 1: rising up from sort of the accretion of these materials. Yeah, 659 00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:35,600 Speaker 1: and it's it's interesting. Lincoln doesn't really get into this 660 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:38,280 Speaker 1: at all, but it's interesting to wonder about what role 661 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 1: um I don't know, like practical biological facts could play 662 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,520 Speaker 1: into the origins of these practices. I don't know if 663 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:50,000 Speaker 1: there is, for example, any kind of real disease risk 664 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:53,880 Speaker 1: that you would get from from encountering the trimmings of 665 00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:56,680 Speaker 1: hair and nails from other people. Perhaps there's some, but 666 00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:58,880 Speaker 1: it seems like there would be less of that than 667 00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,960 Speaker 1: there would be from sake contact with blood or feces, 668 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:04,359 Speaker 1: though I'm not sure. I mean, it's interesting that there's 669 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:06,720 Speaker 1: a mention of lice, and and one of the things 670 00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:09,640 Speaker 1: talking about being disposed of here is hair. Yeah, I mean, 671 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 1: you know, we might think, well, the hair is the 672 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:15,280 Speaker 1: place where the lice live. Therefore, you know, less inclined 673 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:18,160 Speaker 1: to pick up odd pieces of hair that we find 674 00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:21,480 Speaker 1: just out on the road. I mean, certainly, I think 675 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:23,520 Speaker 1: we can all attest to, you know, being on a 676 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,800 Speaker 1: walk or something, or and encountering a piece of someone's 677 00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,960 Speaker 1: hair or you know, hair clippings, or perhaps even a 678 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:34,960 Speaker 1: fingernail or a toenail, and your first instinct is not 679 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,759 Speaker 1: to pick that material up and look closer. Yeah, put 680 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:41,200 Speaker 1: it in your mouth. Yeah yeah, that doesn't seem like 681 00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 1: a natural thing to do. Alright, on that note, we're 682 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:45,839 Speaker 1: going to take a quick break, but we'll be right back. 683 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,560 Speaker 1: All right, we're back. But we've been talking about all 684 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:54,320 Speaker 1: these examples from all of you know, different parts of 685 00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:58,680 Speaker 1: the world of religious or magical significance that is granted 686 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:01,760 Speaker 1: to trimmings from the hair and nails. And this list 687 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:05,000 Speaker 1: is far from exhaustive. There are tons of examples in 688 00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:08,040 Speaker 1: practices all all over the place. But I think just 689 00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:10,360 Speaker 1: the examples we've talked about do help paint a picture 690 00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:13,760 Speaker 1: of the wide range of myths, beliefs, and practices about 691 00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:16,840 Speaker 1: hair and nails and the many similarities between them. But 692 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:20,560 Speaker 1: the question is why why do so many different cultures 693 00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:24,800 Speaker 1: place this important ritual or religious significance on the correct 694 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:29,399 Speaker 1: procedures for trimming and disposing of hair and nails? Now, 695 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:33,000 Speaker 1: Lincoln in his paper goes over several possible answers to 696 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:35,359 Speaker 1: this question that had been advanced by the time he 697 00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:37,480 Speaker 1: was writing in the seventies, and I would say this 698 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:41,000 Speaker 1: list of possible explanations is also not going to be exhaustive, 699 00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:44,680 Speaker 1: but just to discuss a few possibilities. One is a 700 00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:48,040 Speaker 1: very influential theory that's best known for its articulation by 701 00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:52,600 Speaker 1: the late nineteenth and early twentieth century Scottish anthropologist J. G. Fraser, 702 00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:55,759 Speaker 1: in the Golden Bow. The Golden Bow has come up 703 00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:58,680 Speaker 1: on the show before. Uh. Fraser, of course is a 704 00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:03,440 Speaker 1: very you know, enormously influential, but also heavily criticized. We 705 00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:06,400 Speaker 1: can talk about that in a minute, um. But Fraser 706 00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:10,200 Speaker 1: argues that many of these practices have their roots in 707 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:13,480 Speaker 1: a widespread ancient belief in what he would have called 708 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:18,520 Speaker 1: the contagious branch of sympathetic magic. So the basic idea 709 00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,920 Speaker 1: here is that if something was once touching your body, 710 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:26,200 Speaker 1: or especially if it was part of your body, that matter, 711 00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:30,840 Speaker 1: that object maintains a magical connection to your body even 712 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:34,600 Speaker 1: after being physically separated from it, and thus it could 713 00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:37,800 Speaker 1: be used by a witch or a sorcerer to work 714 00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:41,680 Speaker 1: curses on you or magically control you in some way. 715 00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:44,560 Speaker 1: So if Jimmy the sorcerer gets hold of your hair 716 00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:48,160 Speaker 1: or nail trimmings, you are in for a very bad time. 717 00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:50,759 Speaker 1: And so in order to protect yourself from this kind 718 00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:53,719 Speaker 1: of sympathetic magic, you either had to destroy your hair 719 00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:57,160 Speaker 1: and nail trimmings or hide them very well, or maybe 720 00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:00,319 Speaker 1: also perform some kind of purging ritual to rid this 721 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:04,040 Speaker 1: matter of its contagious magical power. And I think it's 722 00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:08,080 Speaker 1: interesting we still see evidence of this kind of magical 723 00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:10,920 Speaker 1: thinking even today. I mean, there there is magical thinking 724 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:14,520 Speaker 1: that persists into the modern modern era whereby you can 725 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:19,120 Speaker 1: have some kind of power over a person by by 726 00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:22,560 Speaker 1: possessing a personal artifact of theirs or an object that 727 00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:24,840 Speaker 1: touched their body. You know, think about like doing magic 728 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:28,839 Speaker 1: on someone by by possessing their hair brush. Right, There's 729 00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:32,560 Speaker 1: also some interesting stuff about just how we think about 730 00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:37,400 Speaker 1: the contamination of of objects. Uh, there's a there's a 731 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,640 Speaker 1: there's this study back in the nineteen nineties by social 732 00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:45,480 Speaker 1: psychologist Paul Rosen and um. This was actually recently mentioned 733 00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:49,080 Speaker 1: on an episode of the excellent radio show Hidden Brain. 734 00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,880 Speaker 1: They pointed out that they asked in this particular study, 735 00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:56,280 Speaker 1: they asked people if they would consider wearing Hitler sweater 736 00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:00,759 Speaker 1: and uh, and they almost always said no. Uh. And 737 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:03,080 Speaker 1: they said no even if they've been assured that it 738 00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:05,880 Speaker 1: had been washed, then it had that it had been torn, 739 00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:08,640 Speaker 1: you know, that it had been punished for being Hitler's sweater, 740 00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:12,720 Speaker 1: or that it had been symbolically cleansed by being worn 741 00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:16,960 Speaker 1: by say mother Teresa before being passed on. And it 742 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,359 Speaker 1: was the you know, this this idea that that this 743 00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:23,360 Speaker 1: this object, this sweater is is contaminated in a way 744 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:28,120 Speaker 1: that cannot be uh punished away, cannot be cleansed away. 745 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:32,880 Speaker 1: It just remains impure in a completely irrational manner. That 746 00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:35,680 Speaker 1: is really funny. I mean, I can just say for myself, 747 00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:39,799 Speaker 1: like I I rationally do not believe in any kind 748 00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:43,280 Speaker 1: of sympathetic contagious magic, So I don't think like Hitler's 749 00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,840 Speaker 1: evil would be contained in the physical sweater in any way. 750 00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:50,319 Speaker 1: But still I wouldn't want to put it on. Well, 751 00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:52,759 Speaker 1: I I have a lot of nitpicky questions about that 752 00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:55,520 Speaker 1: that scenario, like is it a good sweater, Like is 753 00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:58,719 Speaker 1: there anything notable notable about the sweater other than it 754 00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:01,080 Speaker 1: was Hitler's sweater? Because obviously I'm not going to just 755 00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:04,160 Speaker 1: wear a sweater because Hitler wore it. But what if 756 00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:06,200 Speaker 1: I like, was it a store and there was like 757 00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:08,280 Speaker 1: vintage stuff and there was like this really nice sweater 758 00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:10,640 Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh, this is nice. And then I 759 00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,520 Speaker 1: asked why is it so cheap and they tell me, oh, 760 00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:16,920 Speaker 1: because this was Hitler's sweater. Then Okay, that might be 761 00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:19,920 Speaker 1: different because I have some pre existing interest in it. 762 00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:23,000 Speaker 1: There's something about that sweater that's really neat. I don't 763 00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:26,799 Speaker 1: necessarily get that from this this limited scenario. Uh, you know, 764 00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:28,879 Speaker 1: it's it's kind of implied that the notable thing about 765 00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:31,200 Speaker 1: the sweater is that it was Hitler's. Well, you know, 766 00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:34,560 Speaker 1: I actually can think of a reason I wouldn't want 767 00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:37,400 Speaker 1: to wear that sweater or own it, even if even 768 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:40,239 Speaker 1: though I don't believe in any magical associations, which is 769 00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:42,480 Speaker 1: that I mean, I guess if you were to wear 770 00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:44,760 Speaker 1: a sweater that you knew had been warned by Hitler, 771 00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:47,960 Speaker 1: you'd probably end up thinking about Hitler all the time. 772 00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:50,440 Speaker 1: And you know, it's like every time you put it on, 773 00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:52,440 Speaker 1: you have to be like, oh, yeah, Hitler, and you 774 00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:55,440 Speaker 1: just don't want Hitler in your brain that much. Yeah, 775 00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:57,759 Speaker 1: I mean, to a certain extent, one encounters this with 776 00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:01,359 Speaker 1: the you know, the strug well to separate say, an 777 00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:04,200 Speaker 1: artist from the art. Uh That can sort of be 778 00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:08,000 Speaker 1: the Hitler's sweater scenario in some cases, where you're like, Okay, 779 00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:10,200 Speaker 1: there's nothing wrong with the sweater, but I can't wear 780 00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:12,120 Speaker 1: it without thinking about Hitler. So I just don't think 781 00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:15,080 Speaker 1: I'm gonna wear this anymore. So it's worth noting that 782 00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:18,560 Speaker 1: Fraser's work on the origins of religions, again, as I 783 00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:22,279 Speaker 1: said earlier, was both enormously influential and has come under 784 00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:24,880 Speaker 1: a lot of criticism. I you know, I'm not deep 785 00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:28,000 Speaker 1: on this, but I think one common criticism is that 786 00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:31,400 Speaker 1: Fraser would sometimes I think, kind of fudge or cherry 787 00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:35,080 Speaker 1: pick the ethnographic evidence he cited in order to make 788 00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:38,640 Speaker 1: things fit more cleanly into his broader theories. And you know, 789 00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:41,760 Speaker 1: this is something I think that a lot of writers 790 00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:44,879 Speaker 1: who have grand theories about human culture and society end 791 00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:48,160 Speaker 1: up being guilty of. Uh So, while The Golden Bow 792 00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:51,000 Speaker 1: remains a fascinating read, I would advocate that you shouldn't 793 00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:54,120 Speaker 1: rely on Fraser alone as your soul source for anything. 794 00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:58,080 Speaker 1: And in Lincoln's analysis of Fraser's thoughts on on the 795 00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:01,440 Speaker 1: origins of these uh, these rituals for dealing with hair 796 00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:06,000 Speaker 1: and nails in in sympathetic contagious magic. Lincoln thinks that, well, 797 00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:09,360 Speaker 1: probably a lot of practices do have some kind of 798 00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:12,920 Speaker 1: roots like that, but he's not convinced that contagious sympathetic 799 00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:16,000 Speaker 1: magic lies at the root of all of these practices, 800 00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:19,719 Speaker 1: and certainly not the practices in the cultures that that 801 00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:23,280 Speaker 1: have some origins in the speakers of Proto Indo European, 802 00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:25,440 Speaker 1: because he has a different theory about that that we 803 00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:28,240 Speaker 1: can get into in just a minute. Lincoln also mentions 804 00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:31,279 Speaker 1: the work of an anthropologist named Mary Douglas, who is 805 00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:36,400 Speaker 1: a very influential twentieth century anthropologist. She proposed that that 806 00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:40,440 Speaker 1: within human religious thinking, quote that the body is a 807 00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:43,959 Speaker 1: powerful model or image which can which can represent any 808 00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:49,239 Speaker 1: bounded system, and which most often represents society itself. The 809 00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:53,040 Speaker 1: limits of the body then represent the limits of society, 810 00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:56,960 Speaker 1: the points at which it encounters opposition and danger, and 811 00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:00,760 Speaker 1: must thus be treated with appropriate care. So she's arguing 812 00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:05,120 Speaker 1: basically that we symbolically make an an equivalence between our 813 00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:08,960 Speaker 1: bodies and the society at large, and that margins in 814 00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:13,120 Speaker 1: general are dangerous and ambiguous places and Thus the things 815 00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:16,279 Speaker 1: that come off of our body represent ambiguity at the 816 00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:20,200 Speaker 1: margins in the larger context of symbolic thinking about the society. 817 00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:24,000 Speaker 1: So you have to carefully regulate this marginal body matter. 818 00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:27,600 Speaker 1: And uh Lincoln in this paper, he he similarly thinks 819 00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:30,680 Speaker 1: this idea is interesting, that it might explain some things, 820 00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:34,440 Speaker 1: but he's got a different theory that is based in 821 00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:39,080 Speaker 1: the Proto Indo European creation myth. So, the Proto Indo 822 00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:43,920 Speaker 1: Europeans are a hypothesized prehistoric culture that we know about 823 00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:48,440 Speaker 1: primarily through reconstruction of their language, which is a direct 824 00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:53,160 Speaker 1: ancestor to a huge number of historical and existing languages 825 00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:57,600 Speaker 1: throughout Asia and Europe. Just for example, English has a 826 00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:00,719 Speaker 1: number of roots in different languages, in fluding but not 827 00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:05,680 Speaker 1: limited to Germanic languages and Romance languages. But both Germanic 828 00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:10,680 Speaker 1: and Romance languages themselves have roots in Proto Indo European language. 829 00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:13,719 Speaker 1: So you know, there was a root language that influenced 830 00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:17,080 Speaker 1: these derivative languages that developed in you know, different ways, 831 00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:19,960 Speaker 1: and then those derivative languages came back and in a 832 00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:24,160 Speaker 1: way combined to influence other languages like English. The Proto 833 00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:28,319 Speaker 1: Indo European people left no written records, but linguists have 834 00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:31,560 Speaker 1: been able to reconstruct a lot of their language by 835 00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:35,560 Speaker 1: tracing back similar word roots in a widespread catalog of 836 00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:39,960 Speaker 1: languages uh. Similarly, scholars have tried to reconstruct other things 837 00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:42,399 Speaker 1: about them. We don't know a lot of things for sure, 838 00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:48,560 Speaker 1: but they probably lived somewhere around southern Russia, Ukraine, and Kazakhstan, 839 00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:51,360 Speaker 1: sort of between and to the north of the Black 840 00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:54,640 Speaker 1: Sea and the Caspian Sea, probably a few thousand years 841 00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:57,920 Speaker 1: b c. We don't have any direct records of their 842 00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:01,920 Speaker 1: religious beliefs, their myths, and the Proud Actices, but scholars, 843 00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:07,960 Speaker 1: including Bruce Lincoln, have used clues from other descendent religions 844 00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:12,480 Speaker 1: to try as best as possible to reconstruct elements such 845 00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:17,720 Speaker 1: as their creation myth. And Lincoln explains his hypothetical reconstruction 846 00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:22,719 Speaker 1: of this creation myth as follows. Quote. This myth, as 847 00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:26,200 Speaker 1: I have established elsewhere, told how the world and all 848 00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:29,480 Speaker 1: the creatures in it were established by the first act 849 00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:34,960 Speaker 1: of sacrifice. In the Primordial offering, the first priest Manu 850 00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:41,239 Speaker 1: meaning man, dismembered the first king Yemo meaning twin, and 851 00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:45,600 Speaker 1: from his body built up the material world. Now, certain 852 00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:49,279 Speaker 1: steps in the process of creation were described in this myth, 853 00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:54,600 Speaker 1: steps whereby the body of the primordial victim became the world. 854 00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:59,399 Speaker 1: Thus his skull became the heavens, his eyes the sun 855 00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:03,399 Speaker 1: and moon, his blood the seas, and what is most 856 00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:06,680 Speaker 1: important for the issue at hand, his hair became the 857 00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:11,920 Speaker 1: plants and trees, and so Lincoln quotes. He goes on 858 00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:15,359 Speaker 1: to quote a bunch of related ancient religious texts that 859 00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:18,440 Speaker 1: serve as evidence for his reconstruction of the myth in 860 00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:22,000 Speaker 1: this way. Um. And of course we don't know that 861 00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:24,440 Speaker 1: this is actually what their creation myth was like, but 862 00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:28,520 Speaker 1: it seems like a reasonable approximation of what their creation 863 00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:30,400 Speaker 1: myth might have been like, given what we know from 864 00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:32,799 Speaker 1: a lot of other religions that seem related to it. 865 00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:35,600 Speaker 1: And this is of course, I mean, you can immediately 866 00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:40,480 Speaker 1: think of other examples of creation myths in which the 867 00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:43,320 Speaker 1: parts of the world are made out of the body 868 00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:47,480 Speaker 1: of a slain primordial foe. Think about the ways that 869 00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:50,640 Speaker 1: in say the Enema a leash, that the body of Tiamat, 870 00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:54,080 Speaker 1: the dragon, you know, the sea monster gets turned into 871 00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:56,319 Speaker 1: the you know, the mountains and the sky and the 872 00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:58,680 Speaker 1: seas and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, yeah, this 873 00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:00,360 Speaker 1: is something you do see in a number of different 874 00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:03,880 Speaker 1: mythologies like that, if nothing else you could even summarize 875 00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:07,839 Speaker 1: just to say that the body, the primordial body of 876 00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:10,279 Speaker 1: being such as this are are important in the way 877 00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:13,719 Speaker 1: that they are then taken apart and then redistributed in 878 00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:17,719 Speaker 1: those parts become important aspects of the world that follows. Right, 879 00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:21,800 Speaker 1: And so Lincoln says that, you know, if his reconstruction 880 00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:24,960 Speaker 1: of the Proto Indo European creation myth is is basically 881 00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:27,879 Speaker 1: correct or is on the right track, that a lot 882 00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:31,920 Speaker 1: of religious practices of round disposal of hair and nails 883 00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:34,960 Speaker 1: in cultures that are in part descended from the Proto 884 00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:40,000 Speaker 1: Indo Europeans could be rooted in a recapitulation of this 885 00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:42,960 Speaker 1: creation myth. And this draws on a strain of thinking 886 00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:46,279 Speaker 1: that I think in some way is associated with the Eliade. 887 00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:50,080 Speaker 1: For example, that a lot of religious rituals are in 888 00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:53,680 Speaker 1: a way supposed to be a re enactment of a 889 00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:57,360 Speaker 1: foundational myth. Yeah. Yeah, the idea that that that that 890 00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:02,000 Speaker 1: everything we do is only important in the archaic sense 891 00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:06,560 Speaker 1: if we are recreating something from our founding myths. Right, 892 00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:11,080 Speaker 1: So that's ultimately Lincoln's theory here what what he thinks 893 00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:14,879 Speaker 1: best explains the widespread nature of these these practices about 894 00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:17,520 Speaker 1: the disposal of hair and nails. That he thinks, when 895 00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:20,640 Speaker 1: you dispose of hair and nail clippings in the correct way, 896 00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:25,759 Speaker 1: you are furthering the life of the world's vegetation in 897 00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:30,359 Speaker 1: keeping with the creation story. The sacrifice here is your 898 00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:34,279 Speaker 1: own body, and the sacrifice of hair. Originally, he thinks, 899 00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:37,319 Speaker 1: hair and the nails were sort of added onto the hair. 900 00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:41,640 Speaker 1: Sacrifice feeds the trees and the grasses the same way 901 00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:46,160 Speaker 1: that this primordially slain foe originally created all that vegetation. 902 00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:49,400 Speaker 1: And uh. And then Lincoln says, the other half of 903 00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:52,600 Speaker 1: the coin is quote. When such care is not taken, 904 00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:56,280 Speaker 1: when disposal is not a ritual and does not repeat 905 00:51:56,360 --> 00:51:59,000 Speaker 1: the acts of a mythic model, the reverse can be 906 00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:03,480 Speaker 1: the effect. For if proper disposal serves to create the cosmos, 907 00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:07,759 Speaker 1: then improper disposal can de create it, or to put it, 908 00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:12,879 Speaker 1: negatively conserved to create chaos out of cosmos. And think 909 00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:15,840 Speaker 1: of the examples again we discussed here the destruction of 910 00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:19,239 Speaker 1: crops by vice demons from the Avestan text. You know, 911 00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:23,040 Speaker 1: the ancient Zoroastrian text, or the creation of the noggle far, 912 00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:26,960 Speaker 1: the ship that brings monsters to deliver the violent into 913 00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:29,920 Speaker 1: the world, and the destruction of the gods that's made 914 00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:33,439 Speaker 1: out of the nails of dead men improperly cared for. 915 00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:36,479 Speaker 1: So obviously, I mean, I would say in my final thoughts, 916 00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:40,160 Speaker 1: obviously Lincoln's idea here about the origins of these practices 917 00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:43,440 Speaker 1: could be wrong, but at the very least it provides 918 00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:47,759 Speaker 1: some really interesting scaffolding for understanding ways in which complex 919 00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:52,360 Speaker 1: symbolic religious thinking might enter into what we would consider 920 00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:57,360 Speaker 1: an extremely mundane grooming practice. How uh, it's it's possible 921 00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:00,680 Speaker 1: that just clipping your nails and cutting your hair too 922 00:53:00,719 --> 00:53:04,960 Speaker 1: many people might have cosmic significance because of the myths 923 00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:08,000 Speaker 1: that informed their worldview. Yeah, this is this is all 924 00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:11,080 Speaker 1: very fascinating. You know. It gets to the sort of 925 00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:14,000 Speaker 1: the ambiguity of what our nails and our as well 926 00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:16,000 Speaker 1: as our hair, like, well, what what they really are? 927 00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:18,960 Speaker 1: And and then yeah, what are we supposed to do 928 00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:21,279 Speaker 1: with them once we once they leave our body? And 929 00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:23,120 Speaker 1: then what sort of ideas do we end up building 930 00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:26,719 Speaker 1: up about uh, those things and our identity and our 931 00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:31,240 Speaker 1: place in the cosmos? Yeah, totally so. Maybe, uh, maybe 932 00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:33,640 Speaker 1: if if you're somebody who has a say a partner 933 00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:36,879 Speaker 1: or roommate or a family member who gets mad when 934 00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:39,200 Speaker 1: you just like clip your toe nails in a willy 935 00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:41,960 Speaker 1: nilly fashion, they shoot all over the room and you 936 00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:44,439 Speaker 1: do not collect them in a clean and tidy way 937 00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:48,080 Speaker 1: for proper disposal. Think about this interpretation of the proto 938 00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:52,759 Speaker 1: Indo European creation myth. What if what if you are 939 00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:56,840 Speaker 1: somehow creating chaos out of order by doing so, and 940 00:53:56,920 --> 00:54:00,680 Speaker 1: you are summoning demons up from the earth. Yeah, indeed, 941 00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:03,880 Speaker 1: I think they're there. There's probably like a wide variety 942 00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:06,440 Speaker 1: of different takes on this as well. Like I think 943 00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:10,799 Speaker 1: I've run across the examples of a Chinese superstition um 944 00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:13,759 Speaker 1: that at least exists in some places where you are 945 00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:16,359 Speaker 1: not supposed to trim your toe nails at night while 946 00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:20,280 Speaker 1: it's dark outside, um, or not to trim them outside 947 00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:22,719 Speaker 1: at night. For my own part, I mean, I prefer 948 00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:25,839 Speaker 1: to to trim my my nails outside if I can. 949 00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:29,160 Speaker 1: I feel like they just simplifies the whole scenario. You know, Um, 950 00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:31,520 Speaker 1: you don't have to worry about finding them if they 951 00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:34,520 Speaker 1: go flying or anything like that. Now. One thing that 952 00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:36,680 Speaker 1: comes to my mind is, you know, in terms of 953 00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:39,840 Speaker 1: the parts of our bodies that we leave behind on 954 00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:43,120 Speaker 1: regular basis, I mean, humans have it fairly simple, you know. 955 00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:46,360 Speaker 1: Well it's just the most mostly just the nails and 956 00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:48,920 Speaker 1: the hair, and but and yet we still managed to 957 00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:52,840 Speaker 1: build up all these fabulous ideas to construct demonships of 958 00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:56,000 Speaker 1: the mind. Um. Imagine what it would be like if 959 00:54:56,080 --> 00:54:59,759 Speaker 1: we if we like molted um and left behind an 960 00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:02,880 Speaker 1: ex a skeleton that resembled ourselves, you know, sort of 961 00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:06,560 Speaker 1: like the cicada shell that is left behind. Or imagine 962 00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:09,480 Speaker 1: that we make something along the lines of squid that 963 00:55:09,640 --> 00:55:14,160 Speaker 1: leave behind a pseudomorph, you know, a cloud of of 964 00:55:14,239 --> 00:55:16,160 Speaker 1: ink that is in the shape of their body to 965 00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:18,759 Speaker 1: fool predators, that sort of thing. Imagine what sort of 966 00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:23,320 Speaker 1: like strange ideas about self and former self, uh, such 967 00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:27,920 Speaker 1: beings intelligent beings might have. Yeah, can you imagine the 968 00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:32,600 Speaker 1: religion and the religious practices of intelligent arthropods that had 969 00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:35,680 Speaker 1: to molten have a whole body shell that was left behind. 970 00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:39,000 Speaker 1: Oh man, that that would be good. That's that's that's 971 00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:41,600 Speaker 1: something good for your sci fi novel there. Yeah, I 972 00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:44,160 Speaker 1: mean what shape would it take would it be, would 973 00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:47,080 Speaker 1: there be like a would you have like spiritual burial 974 00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:51,040 Speaker 1: grounds where all of your your various um uh, you know, 975 00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:54,680 Speaker 1: exoskeletons go once you've morphed out of them. Um. Do 976 00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:59,240 Speaker 1: do famous uh crab people did do their exoskeleton moldings 977 00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:02,239 Speaker 1: wind up in a museum somewhere? I don't know. There's 978 00:56:02,239 --> 00:56:06,359 Speaker 1: so many questions to ask, as always, Uh, if you've 979 00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:09,200 Speaker 1: run across any examples in science fiction or fantasy that 980 00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:11,480 Speaker 1: deal with these sort of issues, we'd love to hear 981 00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:15,359 Speaker 1: from you. We always love your to hear advice from 982 00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:18,640 Speaker 1: listeners on old works of science fiction and fantasy or 983 00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:21,799 Speaker 1: new works as well. UM. Likewise, we touched on a 984 00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:26,160 Speaker 1: lot of different traditions and cultures in this episode, especially, 985 00:56:26,719 --> 00:56:29,200 Speaker 1: so I would love to hear from absolutely anybody who 986 00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:32,520 Speaker 1: has insight on this. Uh, particularly with with with long nails, 987 00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:35,759 Speaker 1: for example, Uh, do you keep your nails long? Have 988 00:56:35,880 --> 00:56:39,080 Speaker 1: you ever kept your nails long? Um? You know? Right 989 00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:40,960 Speaker 1: in I'd like to to know how that has impacted 990 00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:44,319 Speaker 1: your life or not impacted your life. Likewise, if there's 991 00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:47,720 Speaker 1: a particular tradition in your culture or your culture of origin, 992 00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:51,240 Speaker 1: I would like to hear about that as well, and certainly, 993 00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:54,680 Speaker 1: as Joe mentioned, if there are any particular practices that 994 00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:57,359 Speaker 1: you engage in, either culturally or just sort of as 995 00:56:57,400 --> 00:56:59,920 Speaker 1: a as a as a quirk of your own individual 996 00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:03,959 Speaker 1: nature regarding your your your nail and hair trimmings. Uh, 997 00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:07,000 Speaker 1: we would love to hear what they are totally. In 998 00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:09,279 Speaker 1: the meantime, if you would like to listen to other 999 00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:11,359 Speaker 1: episodes so of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, you can 1000 00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:14,160 Speaker 1: find us wherever you find your podcasts and wherever that 1001 00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:16,920 Speaker 1: happens to be. We just asked that you rate, review, 1002 00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:20,320 Speaker 1: and subscribe huge thanks as always to our excellent audio 1003 00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:23,360 Speaker 1: producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get 1004 00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:25,480 Speaker 1: in touch with us to answer any of the questions 1005 00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:28,040 Speaker 1: Robert just listed, or if you'd like to suggest topic 1006 00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:30,760 Speaker 1: for the future. You've got any other feedback on this episode, 1007 00:57:31,160 --> 00:57:34,160 Speaker 1: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow 1008 00:57:34,200 --> 00:57:44,040 Speaker 1: your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is 1009 00:57:44,040 --> 00:57:46,760 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my 1010 00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:49,720 Speaker 1: Heart Radio, this is the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 1011 00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:59,960 Speaker 1: or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows on our 1012 00:58:03,120 --> 00:58:05,120 Speaker 1: boot proper