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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Serious x M Triumph

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Speaker 1: Channel one two. The Golden State Killer is the most

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Speaker 1: prolific serial predator in the nation. I don't like to

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Speaker 1: go out anymore. I don't go out by myself at

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Speaker 1: all anywhere. He was the boogeyman. He was the man

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Speaker 1: in the bushes that we didn't know who he was,

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Speaker 1: and we didn't know when he was going to strike again.

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Speaker 1: All I know is he raped fifty people and he

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Speaker 1: killed twow and one of whom was your sister, My sister,

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Speaker 1: Shut up, kill you. A bump against the house, maybe

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Speaker 1: the sound of a footstep shuffling along a fence outdoors,

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Speaker 1: maybe nothing at all, no warning whatsoever. The trademark of

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Speaker 1: the so called Golden State Killer? Who is he? What

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Speaker 1: do we know? Now? Linked to at least one crimes

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Speaker 1: and potentially homicides? The victims their families still looking for him?

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Speaker 1: And what an m o modus operandi? Method of operation two.

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Speaker 1: Come into a home in the middle of the night

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Speaker 1: where a woman is sleeping alone or possibly a couple asleep,

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Speaker 1: to bind the man, place him face down with dishes

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Speaker 1: stacked on his back, and then sex attack the woman,

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Speaker 1: threatening to kill her and the man if the dishes fall. I,

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, this is crime stories, and I want this

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Speaker 1: guy dead or alive. Joining me now. Michelle Cruz, the

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Speaker 1: sister of the Twelf murder victim Jane Carson Sandler, victim

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Speaker 1: number five, author of Frozen in Fear, a true story

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Speaker 1: of surviving the Shadows of Death. Billy Jensen with US

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Speaker 1: investigative journalists who went through all Michelle McNamara's raw chapters

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Speaker 1: and put together her book, I'll Be Gone in the Dark.

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Speaker 1: Paul Haynes, researcher of the book I'll Be Gone in

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Speaker 1: the Dark. And Cheryl McCullum, director of the Cold Case

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Speaker 1: Research Institute, to all of you, thank you for being

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Speaker 1: with us. Cheryl McCollums, starting with you, this is the

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Speaker 1: case that has seemingly alluded police and victims for years.

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Speaker 1: I think largely because he relocated from one part of

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Speaker 1: California to the next part and possibly beyond. Why has

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Speaker 1: he managed, with all of these crimes to elude police? Nancy.

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Speaker 1: He is willing to change the m O, He's willing

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Speaker 1: to change location. He changes it up and just talks

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Speaker 1: police with it, so you know they say something on

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Speaker 1: the news about You know, he's never assaulted a woman

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Speaker 1: with a man in the home. He changes it up

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Speaker 1: and he does that. It's it's remarkable that he has

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Speaker 1: been able to commit this many crops fifty rate ten

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Speaker 1: murders and has alluded police every step of the way.

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Speaker 1: California law enforcement now estimate fifth rapes in the county's Sacramento,

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Speaker 1: Contra Costa, Stanislaus, San Joaquin, Alameda, Santa Clara, Yolo. We

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Speaker 1: think commanded by the so called Original night Stalker. That's

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Speaker 1: fifty at the least, DNA conclusively linking him to eight murders.

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Speaker 1: Other murders linked by m O. Investigators suspect that the

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Speaker 1: same man committed three other murders too, in Rincio, Cordova

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Speaker 1: and Bassalia. It goes on and on and on. In fact,

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Speaker 1: he's got so many murders and rapes he even has

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Speaker 1: different monikers going by East Area rapists, the Golden State Killer,

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Speaker 1: the Original night Stalker. It goes on and on with

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Speaker 1: this guy, and still he alludes police. For all I know,

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Speaker 1: he's no longer in California. Maybe he's in your home state.

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Speaker 1: Let's go first to Jane Carson Sandler, victim number five,

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Speaker 1: author of Frozen in Fear, a true story of surviving

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Speaker 1: the shadows of death. Jane, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 1: Thank you Nancy for having me right now, just struck

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Speaker 1: with knowing how close you came to being murdered. Something

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Speaker 1: about you was different from his murder victims. Tell me

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Speaker 1: what happened. Well, I was six thirty in the morning

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Speaker 1: and my husband had just left for work. I heard

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Speaker 1: the garage door closed, and the next thing I knew,

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Speaker 1: there was someone running down the hall with a flashlight

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Speaker 1: and I yelled to my husband, what did you forget?

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Speaker 1: And it wasn't my husband. It was n with a

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Speaker 1: ski mask, holding a flashlight a large butcher knife. And

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Speaker 1: just before this man ran down the hall, my son

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Speaker 1: had gotten in bed with me, my three year old son.

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Speaker 1: So um, we were snuggling when this monster arrived at

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Speaker 1: my bedside and he uh. You can imagine the fear

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Speaker 1: that I was experiencing at this time, especially being that

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Speaker 1: my son was next to me. So um. He had

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Speaker 1: on a ski mask and black leather gloves, high top

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Speaker 1: black sneakers, and that's all I really knew because his

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Speaker 1: face was covered with ski mask with just slits for

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Speaker 1: his eyes. And then he proceeded to anytime I tried

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Speaker 1: to say something, he would say with clenched teeth, shop shop,

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Speaker 1: or I'll kill you. Shut up, shut up, shut up,

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Speaker 1: or I'll kill you. So um. Then um, he proceeded

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Speaker 1: to say he just wanted money, which was of course

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Speaker 1: a lie. And he then he gagged both of both

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Speaker 1: my son and myself. He blindfolded us, and he tied

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Speaker 1: us our ankles and our wrists with shoelaces. And then

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Speaker 1: the most frightening part about the whole ordeal was when

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Speaker 1: he moved my son. And then I knew that I

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Speaker 1: had no idea why he was moving him. Of course,

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Speaker 1: where was he taking him? I had no idea. And uh,

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Speaker 1: and then when he untied my ankles, then I knew

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Speaker 1: what he was there for. I don't even remember the rape,

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Speaker 1: because all I was concerned with is where did he

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Speaker 1: put my son? Um. He also had this um, this

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Speaker 1: ritual of tearing sheets, tearing towels, and I had no

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Speaker 1: idea what he was going to do with those you know,

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Speaker 1: what was he going to us? Well, what what was

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Speaker 1: he going to do? Strangle us with these sheets with

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Speaker 1: his TEF had absolutely no idea and again the fear

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Speaker 1: that I was experiencing was just overwhelming. He eventually, thank

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Speaker 1: the Lord, put my son back next to me. And

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Speaker 1: I don't know why he had moved him in the

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Speaker 1: first place. It was probably because he wanted more room

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Speaker 1: on the bed or I don't think it was because

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Speaker 1: he was being a nice guy. I just think he

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Speaker 1: needed more room to operate. And then as we're tied up,

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Speaker 1: gag blindfolded, and he went in the kitchen and started

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Speaker 1: um rattling pots and pans. I'm not sure if he

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Speaker 1: was cooking something, but he opened the refrigerator and again

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Speaker 1: was making a lot of noise with these pots and pans.

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Speaker 1: And they need to come back in the bedroom and

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Speaker 1: threaten us again and say don't move. If I hear anything,

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Speaker 1: I'll come back and kill you. So we laid there.

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Speaker 1: I laid there probably about thirty minutes, trying to hear

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Speaker 1: if I could hear if he was still in the home.

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Speaker 1: And I was finally able to get my blindfold down

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Speaker 1: a little bit, and I realized it was light coming

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Speaker 1: through the window, so I was able to look over

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Speaker 1: at my son and he was asleep, and I woke

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Speaker 1: him up and I said We've got to get out

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Speaker 1: of here. We've got to get out of here. So

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Speaker 1: hobbling down the hall to the front door. We couldn't

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Speaker 1: get out because there was a chair blocked up under

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Speaker 1: the door knob. And then we went around to the

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Speaker 1: kitchen and the screen door was opened, the sliding door.

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Speaker 1: So I hobbled around to the front gate, screamed for

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Speaker 1: a neighbor, and then went into the neighbor's home and

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Speaker 1: she called the police from there. Carol Daily, my angel uh,

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Speaker 1: showed up and took me to the emergency room. There

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Speaker 1: were three mail policemen that showed up initially to speak

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Speaker 1: with me, but I had no desire to speak to

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Speaker 1: those men. Um. But when Carol arrived, she was so

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Speaker 1: caring and so loving, and I just felt so safe

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Speaker 1: with her. So she took me to the emergency room

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Speaker 1: and stayed with me for about oh well over an

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Speaker 1: hour before she had to leave. There were no cell

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Speaker 1: phones back at that time, so it's not like she could,

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Speaker 1: you know, check in with her partners. So um. I

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Speaker 1: was alone during the rape exam, which was done by

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Speaker 1: a mail and at one minute I was laughing and

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Speaker 1: joyful that I was alive, and my son was alive,

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Speaker 1: and the next moment I was sobbing that, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: what had just happened to us? So that was a

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Speaker 1: very unpleasant experience. The rape exam, the shot of penicill

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Speaker 1: and the shore I didn't have a venerial disease. And

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Speaker 1: then the morning after pill so I didn't get pregnant, um,

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Speaker 1: and then I had to go home to a home

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Speaker 1: that I that um that I felt so violated and

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Speaker 1: I hated so that my story and that's the news

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Speaker 1: to print. But that was over forty years ago and uh,

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Speaker 1: almost forty two now, and I have to say that

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Speaker 1: I'm not sorry it happened to me, Nancy, I'm not

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Speaker 1: sorry at all. I really think that the Lord had

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Speaker 1: chosen me to be victim number five because new eventually

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Speaker 1: I would turn my mess into a message and by

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Speaker 1: helping other women on reaching out to others, that I

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Speaker 1: would glorify him. So I am really um grateful. And

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Speaker 1: I've met so many amazing folks through this journey, Michelle

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Speaker 1: and Debbie and reunited with Carol Daily and after forty

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Speaker 1: years and with um Inspectors shall be and just everyone

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Speaker 1: that I've met through this, uh, this journey it's just

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Speaker 1: it's just been amazing. So my my goal now is

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Speaker 1: just to reach out help other victims and let them

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Speaker 1: know that they're going to be okay. Um, they just

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Speaker 1: the most important thing they need to do is go

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Speaker 1: and get help, Go to a rape crisis center, talk

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Speaker 1: to someone that's been through something similar, because they'll remain

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Speaker 1: a victim if they keep their soult the secret because

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Speaker 1: as we say in a A, we're only as sick

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Speaker 1: as our secrets. And uh, the moment we start to heal,

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Speaker 1: the moment that we're heard, in the moment that we're validated. Jane,

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Speaker 1: I didn't even want to interrupt you to ask a

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Speaker 1: question yes' because your story and your testimony at the

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Speaker 1: end of that story is just amazing. And how you

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Speaker 1: have managed to survive through that and now find a

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Speaker 1: way to praise the Lord and find your way through

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Speaker 1: a nightmare. It's a real inspiration to me. You know,

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Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum with me, director of the Cold Case Institute.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, Cheryl, how many between you and I

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Speaker 1: rape victims we have counseled and I have represented in court.

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Speaker 1: And her words really move mes. Phenomenal Nancy and the

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Speaker 1: fact that she would take what happened to her and

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Speaker 1: turn that into something where she can help other people

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Speaker 1: is nothing short of extraordinary and amazing, and I firmly

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Speaker 1: believe that is God given. You know, back to with me,

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Speaker 1: victim number five. I hate to even use that because

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Speaker 1: it makes her sound like a number. What incredible group

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Speaker 1: of people joining us right now in our attempt to

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Speaker 1: apprehend and investigate the Golden State Killer. Michelle Cruz, Jane Sandler,

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Speaker 1: Billy Jensen, Paul Haynes, Cheryl McCollum, Jane I got. I

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Speaker 1: was trying to jot down questions rather than interrupt you.

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Speaker 1: First of all, how do you feel knowing this guy

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Speaker 1: is still on the loose and you know he hasn't quit,

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Speaker 1: probably not. You know, he could be in Europe, he

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Speaker 1: could be in jail before they started getting d n A.

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Speaker 1: He could be dead. Um. We just we just need resolution,

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Speaker 1: We need closure, we need peace. We need to stop

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Speaker 1: looking over our shoulder and wondering if that you know,

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Speaker 1: guy in the post office is the man. And one

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Speaker 1: thing that is really I find very um creepy is

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Speaker 1: the fact when when he is caught and we're all

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Speaker 1: in that courtroom, when he walks in that one of

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Speaker 1: us may have known him. Um, that to me is just,

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh, such a frightening thought. Your book is incredible,

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Speaker 1: Frozen in Fear, a true story of surviving the shadows

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Speaker 1: of death. Jane Sandler. Does your son, who was then

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Speaker 1: three at the time and with you in bed when

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Speaker 1: the Golden State kill or intruded, does he have any

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Speaker 1: recollection of this? He I didn't actually talk to him

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Speaker 1: until he was in college, Nancy. Then, Um, when I

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Speaker 1: did tell him, he remembered, um, that we had a

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Speaker 1: robber in the house, but um, other than that, and

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Speaker 1: he remembers he was moved and where he was moved.

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Speaker 1: I don't know whether it was back in his bedroom

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Speaker 1: where it was on the floor next to the bed,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. And I just wonder if if there's

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Speaker 1: any uh underlining PTSD going on there. I have no idea.

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Speaker 1: He's he's doing so well, and uh, we don't really

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Speaker 1: talk about it very much, but he's he's doing really well.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. What does he do today. He's in the military.

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Speaker 1: He's a lieutenant colonel. Aren't you proud? I'm very proud,

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Speaker 1: very very proud, Yes, very proud with me In addition

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Speaker 1: to Jane Carson Sandler, Michelle Cruz, and Cheryl McCollum, are

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Speaker 1: Paul Haynes, who researched the book I'll Be Gone in

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Speaker 1: the Dark, and Billy Jensen, who an investigative journalist who

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Speaker 1: went through all of Michelle McNamara's raw chapters to put

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Speaker 1: together her book I'll Be Gone in the Dark. To

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Speaker 1: Paul Haines, now, I know there are many murders linked

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Speaker 1: by DNA, murders linked by m O method of operation,

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Speaker 1: as well as nearly two hundred crimes. Could you clarify

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Speaker 1: for me how they are linked. Sure, all the crimes

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Speaker 1: in northern California were linked at the time by m

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Speaker 1: O is a very distinct EMO. It was clear that

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Speaker 1: all of those crimes were the work of the same offender.

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Speaker 1: UH was investigated in the series, and there was public

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Speaker 1: knowledge of the series to the point of hysteria. In

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Speaker 1: southern California, the links were not as clear, and aside

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Speaker 1: from the Santa Barbara crimes, which were clearly recognized as

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Speaker 1: a series, each crime was investigated by a different agency,

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Speaker 1: and some agencies disagree on whether or not there were connections.

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Speaker 1: At the time and after ten years passed from the

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Speaker 1: last crime, which was the murder of Janelle Cruz in Um,

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Speaker 1: The DNA links began to emerge once the Orange County

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Speaker 1: Crime Lab and the Ventura County Crime Lab began to

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Speaker 1: re examine their biological evidence. By two thousand one, links

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Speaker 1: had been established among six of the crimes in southern California,

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Speaker 1: and those crimes were linked by DNA to the East

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Speaker 1: Air Rapist series in northern California, as biological evidence had

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Speaker 1: been preserved from three of the rapes in Contra Costa County,

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Speaker 1: but those three rates were strongly linked by m O

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Speaker 1: to the rest of the series. They're all indisputably the

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Speaker 1: work of the same offender. Well, you said that so

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Speaker 1: much better than I tried to thank you. I mean,

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Speaker 1: and you guys know it cold. I guess it's one

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Speaker 1: thing for you to know it cold like you and

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Speaker 1: Billy do. And then for Jane Sandler and Michelle Cruz,

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Speaker 1: the sister of the twelfth murder victim, to hear you

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Speaker 1: just rattle it off like that because they are actually victims.

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Speaker 1: And of course that leaves Sheryl McCullum and I just

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Speaker 1: in I almost speechless at the the number of crimes,

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Speaker 1: rapes and murders this guy has committed, committed basically under

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Speaker 1: our noses, guys from Paul Haynes, who researched the book,

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Speaker 1: I'll be Gone in the Dark. And that's a very

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Speaker 1: significant title, and I'm gonna let them explain why they

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Speaker 1: use that title. This guy's m O. In case you're saying, well,

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Speaker 1: that could have been anybody's not linked by DNA, No,

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Speaker 1: it's this guy. He originally targeted women, either alone or

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Speaker 1: with children. Like you heard Jane Carson Sandler, her husband

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Speaker 1: had just suffed for work early in the morning, so

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Speaker 1: early was dark outside. You know he was watching right um.

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Speaker 1: But later he came to prefer attacking couples. His usual

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Speaker 1: m I was to break in and wake up the couple,

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Speaker 1: threatening them with a handgun sometimes a knife. They were

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Speaker 1: bound with ligatures that he brought with him to the scene,

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Speaker 1: blindfold and or gag the victims with towels that or

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Speaker 1: sheets that he took from the home and would cut

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Speaker 1: into strips. The way you heard Jane describe it, the

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Speaker 1: female victim was often made to tie up the man

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Speaker 1: with bootlaces. That's consistent with what Jane Samer has just

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Speaker 1: told you before tying herself up. In many cases, the

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Speaker 1: tying was so tight that victims had no feeling in

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Speaker 1: their hands for hours after they were untied. He would

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Speaker 1: then separate them and often statin dishes on the back

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Speaker 1: of the man, who would then be faced down, stating

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Speaker 1: that if he he the killer, heard the dishes rattle,

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Speaker 1: he'd kill everybody in the home. And this is what

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00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:26,000
Speaker 1: is so bizarre. I'm gonna go to youth Cheryl McCollum

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Speaker 1: on this. He would spend hours at times in the home,

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Speaker 1: ransacking closets, going through jewels, as Jane just described, going

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Speaker 1: in the kitchen and eating. She said he was banging

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00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,040
Speaker 1: pots and pans so elly she could hear him back

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Speaker 1: in the bedroom, clearly not afraid he was going to

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Speaker 1: be caught. Not afraid at all, Nathy, He had thought them,

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Speaker 1: he had prepared. Not only would he bring things living,

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Speaker 1: but after he selected the home, he would leave pools

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Speaker 1: around the house. He would leave windows unlocked. He was

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Speaker 1: the most organized rapist I think I've ever said. We

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Speaker 1: also believe that he may have traveled by bicycle to

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Speaker 1: and from his car so his car would not be spotted.

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Speaker 1: I mean the level of planning involved to Michelle Cruz,

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Speaker 1: the sister of the twelve murder victim. I did not

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Speaker 1: mention this to Jane, but to Jane and Michelle, I'm

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, overwhelmingly sorry for what you have lived through. Michelle,

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Speaker 1: tell us your story, all right, Okay, Well, um, Janelle

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00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:46,960
Speaker 1: was killed. N I got a phone call so the

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Speaker 1: next day from a friend and I have been up

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Speaker 1: in Mammoth Mountain skiing. I um moved up there for

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Speaker 1: a couple of months for the snow season, and my

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00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:01,280
Speaker 1: friend Carbon, she's is I think you need to sit down?

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Speaker 1: And I said why and she said, well, her sister

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Speaker 1: was murdered. And I said, I said, my sister got married.

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Speaker 1: She said, no, your sister was murdered. And it was

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Speaker 1: really hard to process. At that time. I just, um,

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Speaker 1: I couldn't believe it. I was stuck in a snowstorm.

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Speaker 1: I couldn't get home. My mom was in Cancoon, Mexico

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Speaker 1: with my little brother, and so I just sort of

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Speaker 1: sat there alone for the next couple of days in

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Speaker 1: the snowstorm, thinking about what she had told me. And

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Speaker 1: it's crazy because for the next twenty years I lived

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Speaker 1: in a sort of a kind of a bubble. I

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Speaker 1: don't even remember what happened. I think I just I

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Speaker 1: don't know. I was in some kind of denial or something.

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Speaker 1: I'd have these nightmares thinking that she was going to

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Speaker 1: come back, and oh, my stars, Michelle Cruz, you're you're

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Speaker 1: giving me flashbacks. After my fiancee was murdered shortly before

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Speaker 1: our wedding, for years, I would have dreams that he

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Speaker 1: was secretly alive somewhere and that he had just wanted

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Speaker 1: to back out of the wedding and didn't want me

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Speaker 1: to find out, and that everybody was in on it

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Speaker 1: and I didn't know. Then there would be dreams where

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Speaker 1: he would have somehow medically be brought back to life.

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Speaker 1: And then there were dreams or he would be struck

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Speaker 1: by lightning and be brought back to life. There were

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Speaker 1: just so many wild, fantastical dreams. I I mean, I'm

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Speaker 1: a j D, not an empty but I arm chair

336
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:42,040
Speaker 1: figured out that it was a way of I guess,

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00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:46,760
Speaker 1: of my subconscious trying to accept or make sense of,

338
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:51,640
Speaker 1: or or grapple with his his senseless murder. And also,

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Speaker 1: you said, for twenty years, you're in a bubble. Can

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Speaker 1: I tell you? Let's say, let me. It was well

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Speaker 1: over twenty years after Keith was murdered that I would

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Speaker 1: allow myself to actually be in a relationship committed and

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Speaker 1: Mary I would not marry. I mean as a result

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Speaker 1: of that, I was died in childbirth, giving birth late

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Speaker 1: in life, and my daughter almost died. And that is

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Speaker 1: how one of the ways that murder in nine nine

347
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 1: affected me. I mean decades, so there's used chunks of

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00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:40,399
Speaker 1: time I can't remember, events I can't remember, and so please, no,

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00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:48,479
Speaker 1: there's nothing wrong with you. It it's just it's a

350
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 1: hard thing to deal with. But I think victims need

351
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:55,199
Speaker 1: to hear your words. So let me stop talking and

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00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:58,200
Speaker 1: you go ahead. It's true, it's very, very hard. And

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Speaker 1: I dreams were constant. I mean I had the dreams

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Speaker 1: where she was in the military and she just didn't

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00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:07,840
Speaker 1: want to see the family for a while, and she'd

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Speaker 1: come back in a year and she'd hied out with

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Speaker 1: other people. She wouldn't want to come home. These were

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00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 1: my dreams that I had a dream that maybe a

359
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,959
Speaker 1: couple of weeks later, that a man pool guy was

360
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,680
Speaker 1: walking on the side of our yard where our bedroom was,

361
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 1: got through our window and he was and he would walk.

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Speaker 1: He walked to the back of the house to clean

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Speaker 1: the pool, while in reality we didn't have a pool. Um.

364
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Speaker 1: But you know that the guy in my dream, his

365
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:38,480
Speaker 1: face was so clear, so I thought that, you know,

366
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Speaker 1: jenday All trying to tell me who this guy is.

367
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Speaker 1: And then there for a long time people suspect that

368
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Speaker 1: it could have been a pool cleaner or someone at

369
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Speaker 1: the pool. Um. But yeah, for a long long time,

370
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Speaker 1: I lived like that, and I barricade myself in my

371
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Speaker 1: bedroom and had always had my lights on and things

372
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:01,120
Speaker 1: under my drawl, my my door knob so nobody could

373
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:04,919
Speaker 1: break in, and dressers up against my window so nobody

374
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,960
Speaker 1: can break in through the window because I have something

375
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 1: blocking it on the inside. Um. Nowadays, I have surveillance

376
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,200
Speaker 1: cameras and window alarms and all kinds of things around

377
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,639
Speaker 1: my house just to live comfortably. I'm never alone. I

378
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 1: always have somebody here. So it definitely affected me. Um,

379
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:25,920
Speaker 1: the fact that he's never been caught and he's still

380
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 1: out there, and I believe he's still alive. I have

381
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 1: that feeling to Michelle, and I don't know why. Maybe

382
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:35,119
Speaker 1: Billy or Paul can help us sort through that. And

383
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 1: and I'm curious. I'm gonna come back to Jane and

384
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 1: see if she feels he's still alive with me. Jane

385
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 1: and Carson Sandler and Michelle Cruise. Jane a victim of

386
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 1: the Golden State killer who managed to live. Michelle Cruise

387
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 1: the sister of the twelfth murder victim. And I hate

388
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,399
Speaker 1: to say it like that, Michelle, because it sounds like

389
00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 1: a number. It's Janelle Lisa Cruz. And Janelle was just

390
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:07,680
Speaker 1: eighteen years old. She was found bludgeoned dead in her home.

391
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:12,879
Speaker 1: Her family, as Michelle just told you, was on a vacation,

392
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:17,639
Speaker 1: the mom, the brother, the whole family in Mexico. A

393
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 1: pipe wrench had been reported missing by Cruise's stepfather, and

394
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:28,879
Speaker 1: it is thought that is the murder weapon. Janelle was

395
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:39,159
Speaker 1: viciously raped before her murder. We know that DNA links

396
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:44,920
Speaker 1: him to Janelle Lisa Cruz's death, and the bludgeoning death

397
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:53,440
Speaker 1: with potentially a pipe wrench is so brutal, so brutal.

398
00:27:54,920 --> 00:28:00,480
Speaker 1: Michelle tell me about Janelle in life. Jean now was

399
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 1: very vivacious. Um, she just had a magnetic personality. A

400
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:10,439
Speaker 1: lot of people would see her walking down the street

401
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:12,920
Speaker 1: and do double takes, triple takes. She was just kind

402
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,919
Speaker 1: of one of those people that stood out, and she

403
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 1: was very sweet, really sweet, but you know, she was

404
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,680
Speaker 1: one year older than me and so if anyone tried

405
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 1: anything on me, she wasn't so sweet. So she was

406
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 1: also you know, she had that saffoodside. But at the

407
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:35,440
Speaker 1: time that she was murdered, she was looking for apartments

408
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 1: and getting ready to start college. Um. She wanted to

409
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 1: be a legal secretary, was the last thing that she

410
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 1: told me. Um. So she was trying to get her

411
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 1: life together. And I know that they found a newspaper

412
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 1: on the kitchen table, you know, when they had found her,

413
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 1: and there was some apartments circled, and so, yeah, she

414
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 1: was getting her life together. I wanted to move out

415
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 1: of the house. You don't start her own thing, and

416
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 1: so young and so beautiful, with so much ahead of

417
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 1: her in life. It's the death of someone so young

418
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 1: is bad enough, but to think they died in such

419
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: a horrific way is another. Billy Jensen, thank you for

420
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 1: being with us investigative journalists who exhaustively went through so much,

421
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 1: so much information to put together Michelle McNamara's book I'll

422
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 1: Be Gone in the Dark. Michelle, you know had written

423
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 1: so much of this book. You know, we call it

424
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 1: an obsession in the the subhead of the book. She

425
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 1: definitely was. I mean, she was all about this. She

426
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 1: wanted this case solved. And you know, I think with

427
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 1: with the book coming out and her husband, who was

428
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 1: the comedian Patton Oswald, going on a book towards we

429
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 1: really are bringing this story to light and bringing this

430
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 1: killer to light. I think with that, coupled with the DNA,

431
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 1: we're going to get some answers to Paul Hainess, researcher

432
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 1: on the book I'll be Gone in the Dark. Why

433
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 1: what is the significance of the title I'll be gone

434
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 1: in the dark he used He used that phrase or

435
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 1: variations on that phrase with at least three victims, and

436
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 1: you know, those are words that are designed to inflict terror.

437
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: I think as much as this offender was a killer

438
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 1: and a rapist who was also a terrorist, and I

439
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 1: think that was his primary objective was to control and

440
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 1: terrorize his victims. And to hear the phrase You'll be

441
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 1: silent forever and I'll be gone in the dark as

442
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 1: a threat, that's bone shilling. That reminds you that you're

443
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 1: up against a faceless killer who will will slay you

444
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 1: and get away with it. And I think that everything

445
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 1: that he did with his victims was designed to play

446
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 1: into specific fantasy, that he had a specific script that

447
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:06,719
Speaker 1: he was trying to follow. And oftentimes victims would report

448
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 1: that it sounded as though he were reading from a script.

449
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 1: And you mean the phenomena a paraphilia, sexual perversion, or

450
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 1: deviation where it's all about um situations, fantasies, behaviors, and

451
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 1: it it that attraction has been labeled as a fetish.

452
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 1: The fact that you're telling me it sounded like he

453
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 1: was reading from a script or he would always say

454
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 1: the same words over and over. It almost sounds like

455
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 1: the movie groundhog Day, where that you keep reliving the

456
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 1: same day to try to perfect it. He kept reliving

457
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 1: the same crime over and over, Paul. And you know,

458
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 1: he would ask the victim of question and as soon

459
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 1: as the victim began answering, he would he would say,

460
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 1: shut up. You know, there was he had no interest

461
00:31:55,560 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 1: in actually uh engaging with the victim. It was purely

462
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 1: about enacting something. And you know, the stalking, the surveillance,

463
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 1: this is all part of obviously a pattern of behavior

464
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 1: that was titilating to this offender. And you know, when

465
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 1: you consider the the exhaustive number of hours that um

466
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 1: he invested in this activity, you know it must have

467
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 1: consumed a sizeable portion of his life. And that's why,

468
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 1: you know, when when you consider that this person has

469
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 1: gone unidentified for over forty years, I mean, it's mind bothering.

470
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 1: There's somebody in Sacramento who is aware of, to some extent,

471
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 1: a person that they knew that their behavior and their

472
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 1: their patterns and their schedule just just wasn't right, you know,

473
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 1: And that's partly what we're hoping to do is jog

474
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 1: someone's memory so that you know, they might surrender a

475
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 1: name which would lead to the offender's identity and hopefully

476
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 1: capture interesting This is what we believe would be his profile,

477
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 1: according to one of the primary profiles done on him

478
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 1: by Leslie d Ambrosia, a white male dressed well would

479
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 1: not stand out as not fitting in in an upscale neighborhood.

480
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 1: A well maintained car, engaged in deviant behavior and brutal

481
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 1: sex and personal life, likely engaged in sex with prostitutes.

482
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 1: May have had a criminal record as a team that

483
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 1: was expunged knowledge of police investigation and evidence gathering techniques.

484
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 1: Hated women for either real or perceived wrongs, some means

485
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 1: of income, but did not work in early morning hours.

486
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 1: Possibly married, probably as I've seen in so many of

487
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 1: the attack cases I've prosecuted, started as a voyeur, lived

488
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 1: and worked near Ventura, California in nine neat well organized,

489
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 1: likely peeped into the windows of victims, including victims who

490
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:23,720
Speaker 1: were not attacked, just soap that in for a moment,

491
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:34,319
Speaker 1: skilled and experienced cat burglar, good physical condition, appeared to

492
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 1: be harmless, and will continue committing these crimes until there

493
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 1: is some sort of incapacitation, be at prison, death, or

494
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:52,880
Speaker 1: something else in his personal life. Likely to be considered arrogant, domineering, manipulative,

495
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:59,839
Speaker 1: and a chronic liar to Jane Carson Sandler, victim five,

496
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 1: author of Frozen in Fear, A true story of Surviving

497
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:11,600
Speaker 1: the Shadows of Death. Does that profile sound accurate? Oh, yes, ma'am, Yes, ma'am.

498
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 1: It was interesting when um I think it was Paul

499
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:21,920
Speaker 1: that said that he uh sit the profile of a terrorist,

500
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 1: and that just really hit me because that's really what

501
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 1: he was trying to to, um to do, is terrorize

502
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:36,360
Speaker 1: us you know, rape is rape is not about sex,

503
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 1: It's about power and control. And that's what he was

504
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 1: all about. Power and control. To Michelle Cruz, that profile

505
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 1: by Ambrosia, does that sound correct to you? I don't know.

506
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 1: I don't. I just don't know because I'm so hard

507
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,839
Speaker 1: because I there's so many different types. It's hard to

508
00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:02,840
Speaker 1: say you're right. To Billy Jensen, investigative journalists who helped

509
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 1: put together I'll Be Gone in the Dark by Michelle McNamara, Billy,

510
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:11,839
Speaker 1: let's weigh in on what his m O tells us,

511
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:16,240
Speaker 1: what more Q tell us about his modus operandi and

512
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 1: his possible identity. Billy, he really is the most frightening

513
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 1: serial killer I've certainly ever ever encountered, because you know,

514
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 1: you think about the serial killers in history. Son of Sam.

515
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 1: He was the people were outside, you know, they were

516
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,719
Speaker 1: on lover's lanes, or the Zodiac killer who felt but

517
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,719
Speaker 1: that you know, you can't think of anything more secure

518
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 1: than being in your own home. And you know, I

519
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:46,279
Speaker 1: think that's the the idea that this guy probably was

520
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:48,879
Speaker 1: didn't have power in his life, and this is how

521
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 1: he was exerting power. You know, he had this second

522
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 1: life that he was that he felt this need to

523
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:59,319
Speaker 1: exert his power, his power over people, and that was

524
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 1: what this was about. You know, I think Paul really

525
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:04,839
Speaker 1: hit the nail on the head there that this guy

526
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 1: was a terrorist. The sex was was definitely part of

527
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 1: the motivation, but it wasn't the main motivation. Um. The

528
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 1: sex was being used for power. So the idea that

529
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 1: you know, you know, the the best clues that we

530
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 1: have in order to find this guy are we have

531
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 1: his DNA and there's a lot of advances with familiar

532
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:29,479
Speaker 1: DNA going on right now where he we know he's

533
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 1: not in the system, his DNA has done in the system,

534
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 1: but maybe a relative of his is finding that or

535
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 1: even potentially using you know, any kind of commercial DNA.

536
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 1: Back to the m O that which is what I

537
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 1: was asking you about. I read a very old news

538
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:50,600
Speaker 1: article from about nineteen seventy seven on micro face and

539
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 1: it said that noise outside may have curved this guy.

540
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 1: That time, he was referred to as the East Rapist,

541
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 1: now the Golden State Killer. It was a group of

542
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:04,840
Speaker 1: noisy teenagers hanging out on a corner that may have

543
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:08,240
Speaker 1: saved a Foothill farms woman from becoming the twenty eight

544
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:13,239
Speaker 1: victim of the East Area rapist. The sheriff stated that

545
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 1: a man believed to be the East Area rapists now

546
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:21,279
Speaker 1: the Golden State Killer, who had assaulted at that time

547
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 1: twenty seven other women, broke into a woman's home around

548
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 1: eleven thirty on a Friday night, tied her up. The victim,

549
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:32,879
Speaker 1: in her thirties, roamed through the home about two hours,

550
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:37,480
Speaker 1: but then because of the noise outside, he suddenly heard

551
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:39,880
Speaker 1: a burst of sound by a bunch of teen boys.

552
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 1: He left. Now we know that the husband was not

553
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 1: at home at the time, as did the Golden State Killer.

554
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:53,280
Speaker 1: There was a child in the home, just like Jane

555
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:55,840
Speaker 1: Carson Sandler told us her three year old son was

556
00:38:55,880 --> 00:39:00,800
Speaker 1: in bed with her, but the child slept through the incident.

557
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:07,760
Speaker 1: This is chillingly familiar. The resident chosen for the attack

558
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 1: was the second attack and the same area. Most of

559
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:18,880
Speaker 1: the East Area rapes occurred in an unincorporated area of

560
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:24,279
Speaker 1: the county. It went on and on. Here. The elements

561
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 1: of the m O we're almost exactly the same. He

562
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 1: comes in, the victim is asleep in bed, she wakes up.

563
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 1: She this woman woke up with a flashlight shining in

564
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 1: her face, just like Jane Carson Sandler did. She could

565
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:47,800
Speaker 1: not give a description because he had his face covered.

566
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 1: He moved her from the bedroom to another room the

567
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 1: same way he moved Jane's son. I mean, the similarities

568
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 1: are so striking. We also know that he assaulted a

569
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 1: thirteen year old girl after he tied up her mother.

570
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:16,760
Speaker 1: According to this sheriff, Paul Haynes, many people don't realize

571
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 1: a thirteen year old little girl had been one of

572
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:21,839
Speaker 1: his victims. Yeah, there there were. I think there were

573
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 1: two thirteen year old girls that that had been attacked

574
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 1: by this offender. I think the last one of the

575
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:32,319
Speaker 1: last victims in Contra Costa was thirteen or fourteen years old. Um,

576
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:36,800
Speaker 1: you know, the age range was quite broad, from early

577
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 1: teens to late thirties. And just to address some of

578
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 1: the things that you've you've mentioned, um, you know, the

579
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 1: serapists did not always go through with the sexual assault.

580
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 1: And in the case of the victim you were describing, um,

581
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:54,960
Speaker 1: it's likely that he was deterred by the teenagers outside.

582
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:58,120
Speaker 1: In other instances, it's not quite clear why he didn't

583
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:01,919
Speaker 1: proceed with that element. Um, you know. But again, as

584
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 1: as Jane was saying, Jane didn't. Actually, Jane didn't specifically

585
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 1: remember the sexual assault. And this is something that crops

586
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:13,320
Speaker 1: up again and again and the reports in the interviews

587
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:17,040
Speaker 1: with victims. The sexual assault element itself was rather unremarkable.

588
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:20,439
Speaker 1: You know, it was the least memorable element in many

589
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,720
Speaker 1: instances of the attack. And you know, these instances where

590
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 1: the ear as as we call him for short, did

591
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:30,959
Speaker 1: not proceed with the sexual assault. You know it we

592
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 1: we still look on at those as as her attacks. Um,

593
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:38,320
Speaker 1: you know, because all of the other elements were present.

594
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:41,399
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the phone calls and the hang up

595
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:45,319
Speaker 1: calls that surround a lot of these cases. We can

596
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:47,400
Speaker 1: you tell me about that Billy Jensen. Well, one of

597
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 1: the things that he would do is what and there

598
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:54,240
Speaker 1: there is some controversy as to whether they are connected

599
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 1: or not, but he would call and I don't know

600
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:00,200
Speaker 1: if he called anybody that that's on this at all,

601
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:04,520
Speaker 1: but he would call people who he had attacked. How

602
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 1: how could that not be connected? It could have been

603
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 1: somebody that knew the person had been attacked and decided

604
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:12,800
Speaker 1: to just mess with them. Well, there are so many

605
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 1: of them, right, I mean, they're there's so many of

606
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:19,480
Speaker 1: the hang up calls and the calls. I mean, You've

607
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:23,640
Speaker 1: got one victim gets a call that says I'm gonna

608
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:27,000
Speaker 1: kill you. I'm gonna kill you, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch.

609
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:31,560
Speaker 1: And it's that same evening. I mean, who, I don't

610
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:35,280
Speaker 1: know who else would have done that, and that actually

611
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:37,319
Speaker 1: I'm sorry that that called did the victim did received

612
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:39,240
Speaker 1: I called the same eating she was attacked. She received

613
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 1: that call year and a half after the attack, but

614
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:44,880
Speaker 1: other victims had received similar calls, but not with the

615
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 1: same burbage. Let's say here, I'm reading the transcript of

616
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:53,839
Speaker 1: January two. Later that evening, the same victim received another call,

617
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:58,239
Speaker 1: much more sinister in nature. The call was also recorded

618
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:02,839
Speaker 1: and identify by the victim as being the voice of

619
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:07,360
Speaker 1: the assailant earlier in the evening. She's going to earlier

620
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 1: the evening. She had received the wrong number call um,

621
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 1: but the attack was a year and a half prior that,

622
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:17,279
Speaker 1: And you think that may have been someone pranking her,

623
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:21,440
Speaker 1: and possibility, I think most likely that was the offender. Okay,

624
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:23,800
Speaker 1: because I thought you said that they were not connected,

625
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 1: that they might not be connected, you know, I think

626
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:30,360
Speaker 1: anthy we want to be cautious in our viage, because

627
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 1: these are things that have not been conclusively linked. So

628
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 1: let's assume, for for for a moment, that it was

629
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 1: a crank um to assume or to take as fact

630
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:42,319
Speaker 1: that that was that was the offender. You know, that

631
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:44,840
Speaker 1: could potentially send you in the direction of a red herring.

632
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 1: So we believe that it most likely was the offender,

633
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:49,279
Speaker 1: but we want to also allow for the possibility that

634
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:51,239
Speaker 1: it was not. You know, if you look at the

635
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:54,759
Speaker 1: again the police reports, you see hang up calls and

636
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 1: wrong number calls and all sorts of phone calls associated

637
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:01,640
Speaker 1: with not not not merely the victims themselves, but neighbors

638
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:04,759
Speaker 1: of the victims, which I think also indicates that rather

639
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 1: than choosing a particular victim, this is an offender who

640
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 1: targeted neighborhoods. And that's really important, Nancy, is that you know,

641
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 1: the the the when we talk about the m O,

642
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:17,360
Speaker 1: the neighborhood that he chose, particularly when we're talking about

643
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 1: Sacramento and Rancher Cordova. You know, you can do geographic

644
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:27,319
Speaker 1: profiling of his attacks, and that's going to be one

645
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 1: of the big keys and finding this guy, because when

646
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 1: you've attacked so many people in an area, you can

647
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 1: see that he obviously either worked or lived in a

648
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:41,239
Speaker 1: specific area and or at least had a lot of

649
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 1: business being there. Maybe you know, had a girlfriend there

650
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:46,480
Speaker 1: or something, and would go outside late at night and

651
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 1: work this area. Because when you plot it out of

652
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:53,799
Speaker 1: the map, it's pretty clear that he probably um had

653
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:57,759
Speaker 1: something to do with that area and was in what

654
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:00,359
Speaker 1: a lot of people's figure is maybe a buffer zone

655
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 1: in the middle of where all these attacks were to

656
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 1: Jane Sandler joining me, Jane, when you hear the discussion

657
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:12,919
Speaker 1: of the ms and possible clues, what do you make

658
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:17,479
Speaker 1: of the clues that have been left behind, particularly all

659
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:22,680
Speaker 1: the crank calls, the threatening calls, the slurs on women

660
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:26,759
Speaker 1: that were in many of the calls to the crime victims,

661
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:31,880
Speaker 1: many of them state that they had a series a

662
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 1: spate of hang up calls and obscene calls and just

663
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:43,280
Speaker 1: unusual calls, wrong number calls around the time of the attack.

664
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:46,359
Speaker 1: What do you make of that, Jane, He's just trying

665
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 1: to cause more fear and more terror. Had hang up

666
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:56,799
Speaker 1: calls before and after, and he never said anything, but

667
00:45:57,239 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 1: he would just stay on the line, and I just knew,

668
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:03,719
Speaker 1: I just knew it was him. I did have my

669
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 1: phone wire tapped, but unfortunately they were never able to

670
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:15,120
Speaker 1: connect the source. But that's just causing you know, more fear.

671
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:17,600
Speaker 1: I did have them in my notes that occurred with

672
00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:21,719
Speaker 1: you hang up phone calls. He was victims seemingly a

673
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:25,600
Speaker 1: big part of the Golden State Killers emos. Now police

674
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:29,720
Speaker 1: believe he got the victims numbers from burglarizing or casing

675
00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:33,720
Speaker 1: their homes ahead of time. He would call both before

676
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:38,839
Speaker 1: and after the attack, maybe to figure out his targets whereabouts,

677
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:43,760
Speaker 1: or is Jane is saying, to further terrorize the victim.

678
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:46,359
Speaker 1: What do you make of that, Jane? That again was

679
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:49,319
Speaker 1: just that was his m oh, that was what he

680
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:52,840
Speaker 1: was all about, fear and terror. And that's why I

681
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 1: named my book Frozen in Fear, because that was the

682
00:46:56,239 --> 00:47:00,399
Speaker 1: emotion that was overwhelming. That was the one that's that

683
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 1: was really stuck out to me. But you know, his

684
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 1: m o of the clenched teeth, speaking through the clenched teeth,

685
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 1: and the shut up. I mean, if he said shut

686
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:12,279
Speaker 1: up once, he said it, you know ten times, and

687
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:16,279
Speaker 1: his his tearing of the sheets, and I mean definitely,

688
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:19,680
Speaker 1: you know, it was the same person every time, every time,

689
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:23,120
Speaker 1: every time, and then to you know, follow that up

690
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 1: when you think that, you know, you're beginning to heal,

691
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:27,680
Speaker 1: and then you get a phone call and it's a

692
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:31,400
Speaker 1: hang up again. Even today, the last time there was

693
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 1: a show UM on TV about this case. UM a

694
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 1: few days later, I had five hang up phone calls

695
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:44,840
Speaker 1: one one, and UM three three times one day and

696
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:49,280
Speaker 1: to the next. Now, after forty some years, that really

697
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:52,440
Speaker 1: frightened me. So we put an alarm system on our

698
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 1: home just because of those five phone calls, those five

699
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 1: hang up phone calls. Now, do I think it was

700
00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:02,279
Speaker 1: the Eastereo rapist? No, but it was a prank. But

701
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 1: that prank was enough to really frighten me. And even

702
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:07,640
Speaker 1: you know, if the phone rang right now and someone

703
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:11,120
Speaker 1: were too not even to breathe, that just to you know,

704
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:14,880
Speaker 1: is it a solicitor or is it the Eastery rapist

705
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:17,319
Speaker 1: or is it you know, just someone that's just trying

706
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:21,359
Speaker 1: to play with my head? But it never goes away.

707
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:27,920
Speaker 1: Nancy with me is Jane Carson Sandler Michelle Cruz, both

708
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:32,920
Speaker 1: victims of the now named Golden State killer. Take a

709
00:48:33,040 --> 00:49:42,839
Speaker 1: listen to one of his calls that we have obtained. Listen, yeah, yeah, yeah, right,

710
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:50,680
Speaker 1: now the so called Golden State Killer, still walking free

711
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:55,400
Speaker 1: many people believe. I want to thank Cheryl McCollum, director

712
00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 1: of the Cold Case Research Institute, Paul Haines, researcher on

713
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:03,160
Speaker 1: I'll Be Gone in the Dark words of the Golden

714
00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 1: State Killer, Billy Jensen, investigative journalists who extensively went through

715
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:14,080
Speaker 1: raw chapters of Michelle McNamara's book just coming out, I'll

716
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 1: Be Gone in the Dark, and especially to Michelle Cruz,

717
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:24,480
Speaker 1: sister of twelfth victim murder victim Janelle Cruz and Jane Sandler,

718
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:30,520
Speaker 1: victim number five who still lives in fear, author of

719
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:34,920
Speaker 1: Frozen in Fear, a true story of surviving the shadows

720
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:41,720
Speaker 1: of death. Nancy Grace Crime Stories, signing off Goodbye friend,