1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Tracy V. Wilson 3 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: and I'm Holly Frye. This week on the show, we 4 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:22,440 Speaker 1: talked about Fila Roseboro. Oh yeah, I it was really 5 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:24,959 Speaker 1: that apostrophe that caught my attention at the end of 6 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: her name, that made me go, why is that spelled 7 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: that way? Fila? What are you doing? I had one 8 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:37,280 Speaker 1: specific difficulty with research for this, which is that, as 9 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:42,559 Speaker 1: we alluded to, there is one book length biography that 10 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:47,279 Speaker 1: I know of of her. Oh yeah one. It is 11 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 1: by Jane Kirkland Graham, someone I could find no information 12 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: about other than the fact that she wrote this biography 13 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 1: of rosebro It was published in nineteen fifty five. It 14 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:09,120 Speaker 1: is more than six hundred pages long. WHOA, that's a 15 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 1: minutia biography. That's a lot and it is two volumes 16 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 1: published under one cover. So sometimes I can find when 17 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:23,400 Speaker 1: there are obscure books like this. I do have access 18 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:27,960 Speaker 1: to a lot of different libraries, and sometimes when there's 19 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 1: something pretty obscure, I can find it in one of 20 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: those libraries. That was not the case this time. There 21 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 1: are maybe nine copies of this book in any library 22 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 1: anywhere in the United States. It's possible that some of 23 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: them can be sent through inner library loan. But like 24 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 1: an extremely rare book that was published in nineteen fifty five, 25 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:53,559 Speaker 1: maybe not. Also, six hundred pages is like really long 26 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 1: for our show, Like that's that's not really an amount 27 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: of time that we can devote one subject. Yeah, unless 28 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 1: you're just like doing nothing else with your week, and 29 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:09,079 Speaker 1: I mean right, nothing else, absolutely nothing, or if it's 30 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 1: gonna become a two part episode, that could potentially work. 31 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 1: So I guess I lied a little bit. I could. 32 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 1: Also in addition to Jane Kirklin Graham having written this book, 33 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: I also did find out that she lived in Bamberg, 34 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 1: South Carolina and was a school teacher. That was it. 35 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 1: So what I wound up doing was I read every 36 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,960 Speaker 1: review that I could find of this book, and there 37 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:35,800 Speaker 1: are a number of reviews of it that were published 38 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 1: in like literary journals, okay, and the reviewers the same 39 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:47,960 Speaker 1: kinds of words showed up in a lot of the reviews, 40 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 1: the words like unusual and unorthodox because, apparently, as Holly guests, 41 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:56,920 Speaker 1: from the fact that it was more than six hundred 42 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 1: pages long, it does get into the minutia of things. 43 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:05,920 Speaker 1: Apparently there's a lot of discussion of where individual facts 44 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: came from. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, who said what? Some 45 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 1: of the chapters of the book apparently have extensive citations 46 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 1: basically throughout the text, but there's no index and there's 47 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 1: no formal bibliography, which the reviewers all found made it 48 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 1: very hard to like rEFInd information right, Like there was 49 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: no index to refer back to if they were like, 50 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 1: where was the part that she was talking about that 51 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: time she was in Rhode Island? Who could say? It's 52 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 1: some there? So she needed Viola Roseboro to edit that 53 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 1: biz Maybe so it's possible that Jane Kirkland Graham was 54 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 1: really Jeane Kirkland, who was one of Rosebrow's correspondents, friends 55 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 1: with Roseboro, friends with some frosper As friends, and decided 56 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 1: to write a biography of her after her death, but 57 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 1: it's not totally clear. One of the reviewers, named Scott 58 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: c Osborne, pointed out the many flaws in this biography, 59 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 1: but also called it quote prodigious research obviously performed with love. 60 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 1: So all of that, I was like, I could see 61 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 1: if I can get this through Inner Library a loan 62 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: which would mean delaying when I could work on this episode. 63 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 1: I would have to wait for the book to arrive. 64 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:36,280 Speaker 1: But after having read the same consistent criticisms of the biography, 65 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: I was like, I feel like this biography is just 66 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 1: going to make it harder, right, It's gonna drag down 67 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: the research process. Yeah. I would have filled in some 68 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: of the gaps that I do have about her, but 69 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 1: it would have added so much to the research process 70 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:58,039 Speaker 1: just to get through it. I did really love one 71 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 1: particular thing that was said by Isabelle Howell in the 72 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 1: Tennessee Historical Quarterly in their review of this book, which 73 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:11,159 Speaker 1: was quote, her cordial and generous acknowledgments of indebtedness to 74 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 1: the Vanderbilt and Tennessee State Library staffs ought to be 75 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 1: an encouragement to all librarians. So I guess Jane Kirkland 76 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 1: Graham was full of thanks and praise for the librarians 77 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: who helped her with the prodigious research obviously performed with love. 78 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 1: Villa Roseboro was also featured in that Southern Women in 79 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 1: New York article that we talked about in the Elizabeth 80 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 1: Bisland episode. Oh yeah, yeah, she did have a similar trajectory. 81 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 1: That was one of the reasons why I did not 82 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:46,600 Speaker 1: immediately jump into figuring out more about her. After Elizabeth Bisland, 83 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: I was like, this does seem like it's going to 84 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 1: have some of the same right moments of you know, 85 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:54,239 Speaker 1: person who grew up elsewhere moving to New York trying 86 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 1: to make a living as a writer. So let's wait 87 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 1: just a couple months before we get into it. I 88 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 1: feel like if I had known her, I would have 89 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 1: loved and hated her. I think I would have just 90 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 1: hated her. Is that terrible to say? No, there's a 91 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: specific personality that she seems to fit the bill of 92 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 1: that I have encountered many times in my life, and 93 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 1: people go, you will love this person because I am 94 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 1: a chatty person and I like to chitter chatter. But 95 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:29,839 Speaker 1: I don't like people. I mean. When I was younger, yes, 96 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:31,839 Speaker 1: but as I have gotten older, more mature, I do 97 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 1: not like people who are mean for sport. Okay, I 98 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 1: don't care how witty you are. If you're being a jerk, 99 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:42,040 Speaker 1: I think you're a pretentious jerk. That's the nice way 100 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 1: I can use. There are much much more salty words 101 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: bubbling in my esophagus right now. I just I don't 102 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: I don't care that you're you're a hoot. I think 103 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 1: you're a jerk at the end of the day, like 104 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: her whole like, ah, I hate that I can't just 105 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: insult people. I'm like, I'm out, I'm out like a trout. 106 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: You're done, You're done. Swimming away from this one. Yeah, 107 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 1: I was reminded of Steel Magnolia's and if you don't 108 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 1: have anything nice to say, come sit by me, which 109 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 1: is also attributed, as we've discussed on the show before, 110 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: to Alice Roosevelt. I forgot that, which is an interesting 111 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: yeah connection point. Yeah, yeah, I mean, listen, I love 112 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: a little gossip. I love calling it like it is. 113 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 1: But I also just think if you are going into 114 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 1: conversations because you want to be mean. There's also that 115 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 1: thing where she's like, I take control of it, and 116 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm out. That's a boss person. I don't 117 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 1: mind if you are a person that dominates conversations as 118 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 1: long as you're a delight. But if you're just kind 119 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: of being bossy because you think you're better than everybody else, 120 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 1: then you're done. I'm sorry, Viola, I don't think we 121 00:07:44,920 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 1: can hang. The things I loved about her are how 122 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 1: much she loved reading, how much she really seems to 123 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 1: have found joy in finding interesting new work in the 124 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 1: mail bag at the magazine, how much she really seems 125 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 1: to have never lost sight of the fact that that's 126 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 1: an incredibly cool job to have, if that's something that 127 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 1: you find joy in, right, I think it's easy for 128 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 1: everybody in every job, no matter how cool it is, 129 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 1: to eventually kind of fall into a mundane rut with it. 130 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:36,680 Speaker 1: And it doesn't seem like she ever did that. It 131 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 1: seems like she always was like, all right, I get 132 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 1: to go to work, and I get to find some 133 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 1: amazing new story in this mail bag full of stories, 134 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 1: and then I get to help that writer get more 135 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 1: well known in the world. And I think she really 136 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: loved that and put her heart into it for as 137 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 1: long as she was doing it. The fact that somehow 138 00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:00,679 Speaker 1: she was at least briefly able to afford apartment in 139 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 1: New York and multiple cottages, that's the thing I'm curious about. 140 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:07,080 Speaker 1: Did she actually have enough money to do that or 141 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: was she really financially overextending herself? And that is what 142 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 1: contributed to the nineteen twenties being so much harder for her. 143 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 1: I had Initially, before I quite realized the timeline, I 144 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 1: had attributed that more to the Great Depression, right, but 145 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: a lot like the height of the Great Depression was 146 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: after she was having a lot of those struggles that 147 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 1: struck me while we were trying you through this, and 148 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: like ooh, she hit the downramp before the depression even 149 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 1: hit that. Yeah, been a rough rough time. Yeah, so uh, 150 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 1: I like that she liked to make her own way 151 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 1: that I similarly to you don't necessarily like that she 152 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 1: enjoyed being mean or insulting. I just you know, that's 153 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 1: how it is, that thing where it's like, okay, what 154 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:59,200 Speaker 1: is that person getting out of it? Like uh huh, 155 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 1: why do you want? Why is that a thing you prize? Right? 156 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: And it usually doesn't take you to a good place. 157 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah. That seems to have I think been 158 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: one of the contradictions about her, because people also talked 159 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 1: about how she was really generous with her friends, and 160 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 1: even when she didn't have any money, she was always 161 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 1: scraping something together to try to buy little treats for people, 162 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:24,679 Speaker 1: and especially books, Like if somebody came to visit her 163 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:28,199 Speaker 1: and they always left with a book. But then sometimes 164 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 1: she could be very blunt in her criticisms of people, 165 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:39,080 Speaker 1: sometimes beyond what's really necessary. The other thing, too, is 166 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: that she wanted to make her own way in the world, 167 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 1: which I love, but not to put any of that 168 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 1: effort towards ensuring other women could do the same. Sure, Sure, 169 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 1: and I'm like girl, yeah, yeah, yeah. The contradictions and 170 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:02,680 Speaker 1: how she was living her life she thought politically. I 171 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: wonder if that six hundred and something page biography sheds 172 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 1: any light on that, like where that was coming from. 173 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:13,560 Speaker 1: Was it like I got mine and I don't need 174 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 1: to worry about anybody else, or was there something else 175 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 1: going on there? Don't know, Yeah, I don't It's really 176 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:23,319 Speaker 1: hard to Is that her form of rebellion because she 177 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: grew up with hippie parents? Is it? You know what 178 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 1: I mean? Like? Sure, trying to parse that file is 179 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 1: a little tricky. Yeah, yeah, maybe someday, Because I think 180 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 1: there are various services is not even the right word, 181 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: sort of prints on demand situations that will print rare 182 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 1: out of print books on demand, right, And I think 183 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:56,560 Speaker 1: one of those does have this biography, So I also 184 00:11:56,559 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 1: could have spent money and waited a long time to 185 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 1: get it. Uh So maybe I also have a question 186 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 1: for you, okay, because I'm curious what your take is 187 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 1: on Willa Cather's will, okay, and it being disregarded after Okay, 188 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: So here is my understanding of this situation. And I'm 189 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 1: gonna say I did not I got to a point 190 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 1: where I felt like I had a satisfactory answer, but 191 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 1: I do not know. I cannot promise this is like 192 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: the whole story. So Willa Cather's will said none of 193 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:38,200 Speaker 1: my correspondence published in whole or in part right. And 194 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:43,560 Speaker 1: then also there was an executor who all of that 195 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:48,559 Speaker 1: was tied to, and that executor eventually died, and at 196 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 1: that point everything that the will had specified to go 197 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:58,960 Speaker 1: through the executor, all of that expired, and the setup 198 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:04,439 Speaker 1: that had been established to maintain her literary legacy dissolved 199 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 1: with the expiration of all of that. So then a 200 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 1: new basically executor, like the will is over, but like 201 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 1: a new organization had to be sort of developed to 202 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 1: maintain the Willicather legacy, right, and that organization ultimately decided 203 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 1: that it was importance to history and literature and study 204 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: of Willa Caather to be able to publish that correspondence. 205 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 1: And also I think she had specified in her will 206 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 1: not to have any adaptations of her work, huh, and 207 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 1: so I think they may have revisited that also. So 208 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 1: my understanding is that all of this was within the 209 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 1: bounds of what was legal, within the terms of her will. Yeah, 210 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 1: it just made me feel icky. I get it. Like 211 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 1: she she literally said she did not want this. She 212 00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:00,440 Speaker 1: said forever, and you where I for Okay, but later 213 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: now legally we can so well. And I don't know 214 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 1: if the details of the will were do not ever 215 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:14,359 Speaker 1: publish this until after the death of this person Gosch executor, 216 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:17,680 Speaker 1: or if it was do not ever publish this ever ever? 217 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I don't either, 218 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 1: And I don't really feel like doing an episode on 219 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 1: Willa Cather to figure it out more. As we said 220 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 1: during recording, I'm not that not really a fan of 221 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 1: her work. Yeah, And I'm also like, I'm not a lawyer, 222 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: and that what I Everything I just said was sort 223 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: of my understanding based on having to try to figure out, like, 224 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 1: wait a minute, this thing that here says that she 225 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 1: said for her letters never to be published. But I 226 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 1: read some of her letters while researching this episode. What's 227 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 1: going on. So yeah, I don't for sure not either. 228 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 1: I mean I'm going through the like logic flow right of, Like, well, 229 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 1: she did try to get her letters back from people, 230 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 1: so she didn't want them out there, but maybe that's 231 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 1: because she wanted to control it with a weird clause 232 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 1: in her will. I don't know, yeah, read her will. Yeah, 233 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 1: and it's possibly it's possible that we will get an 234 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 1: email either from a lawyer or someone who knows a 235 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 1: lot more about Willa Cather who can give a fuller 236 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 1: explanation than my layperson, not a lawyer who looked just 237 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 1: enough to figure out if she said, no, why is 238 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 1: this on the internet? Yeah, yeah, fascinating. Yeah, I kind 239 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 1: of like not necessarily with Willa Cather, because again, no 240 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 1: plans to do a Willicather episode. But there's definitely been 241 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 1: times that we have worked on episodes on the show 242 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 1: where like there's a question of would this person want 243 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 1: these details right out there? And sometimes there's sort of 244 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: a question of like the history storical interest about something, 245 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 1: what is the importance of understanding this versus like what 246 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 1: is the harm to this person or their legacy or 247 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 1: what they would have wanted, And sometimes those things are complicated, Yes, 248 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: because often too they involve other people. Yeah, which makes 249 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: it layers and layers are trying to figure out what 250 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 1: path feels the the right feels like the right one, 251 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 1: right anyway, history you complicated thing. Yeah, okay, I have 252 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 1: several things I want to discuss about Robert Boyle. Great. 253 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: The first is now a personal bucket list item sort of. 254 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 1: Lismore Castle, Yeah, where he was born, is available for booking. Oh, 255 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 1: you can book out the whole property. I don't know 256 00:16:57,960 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 1: how much it is. They won't say so on their 257 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 1: web site, so you know it's a lot. A lot. 258 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 1: That's that means a lot. Come on, lattery whin. We're 259 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:07,919 Speaker 1: all going to this wreastle like if it happened, If 260 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 1: it were to happen, if I just stumbled into a 261 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:13,639 Speaker 1: Redonka doodle sum of money, I'd be on that website 262 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 1: getting quotes. Yeah, it's beautiful and it's obviously been renovated 263 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 1: and kept up and it's now like an event space. 264 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:22,920 Speaker 1: They'll rent it out for special events, but you can 265 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:24,920 Speaker 1: also just rent out the property to stay for a 266 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:28,639 Speaker 1: weekend with your friends or whatever. Imagine the cool party 267 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 1: you could have there. Yeah, it's gorgeous. I think it is. 268 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 1: Also I don't have their website up in front of me, 269 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 1: but I think it is also like a property you 270 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 1: can just go visit for the day, like a park 271 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 1: area and green spaces that you can look at, and 272 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 1: also architecture that's obviously interesting but so pretty. And I 273 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 1: like that it's been there since the twelfth century. Said, yeah, 274 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:55,119 Speaker 1: that's cool. It's cool. The next thing I want to 275 00:17:55,160 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 1: talk about is that third person autobiograph. Yeah, A lot 276 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:07,399 Speaker 1: of discussion of it calls it a fictionalized autobiography, and 277 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:10,480 Speaker 1: it might be. It doesn't seem super embellished to me. 278 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: I didn't live his life, obviously, I don't know, but 279 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 1: like the details of his birth, his family, upbringing, where 280 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:22,160 Speaker 1: they were all very very identical to his actual life. 281 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 1: And then I came across a portion of it where 282 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:30,639 Speaker 1: he was introducing a letter he had written to his sister, 283 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 1: I believe, and I was like, this is why you 284 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: wrote this in the third person, my dude, because in 285 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 1: not saying it about himself, he can praise himself because 286 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 1: he's introducing this letter and he's like, you know, essentially 287 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:48,119 Speaker 1: like you'll see what a good writer this person is. 288 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: They're amazing, and I'm just like, I see what you 289 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:58,439 Speaker 1: did here, I see I'm onto you, Robert Boyle. It 290 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:01,200 Speaker 1: made me laugh so hard. Also because when you read 291 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 1: his letters, they're so clunky. Yeah, I'm sure in the 292 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:09,199 Speaker 1: time he was giving himself points for verbosity, but like 293 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 1: in terms of clarity. Yeah, no, yeah, when I was 294 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 1: reading through the outline, all the things I had to 295 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 1: read that were quotations of his work were read through 296 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,160 Speaker 1: repeatedly by me to try to make sure I understood 297 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 1: what he was saying. They're clunky. But again that also, 298 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 1: I mean that becomes an interesting discussion point of the 299 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 1: ways that different things have been valued in writing and 300 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 1: intellectual communication and correspondence over the centuries. Right to him, 301 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 1: it was I know a lot of big words, and 302 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:45,440 Speaker 1: I can string him together, whereas I think today we'd 303 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 1: be like, I don't know what you're talking about. Clarity 304 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:52,920 Speaker 1: in scientific writing in particular, clarity in all things. Well, 305 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 1: and we read clunky stuff in the Heart Lib episode two, 306 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 1: didn't we, Yeah, remembering that right, Yeah, it's a clunky time. 307 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:02,879 Speaker 1: They were all clunky writing each other. So you know, 308 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 1: it's if you believe that adage that you're the average 309 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:10,680 Speaker 1: of the five people you're closest to. Yeah, they're all 310 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 1: just writing that same style. It just is a feedback loop, 311 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 1: a self replicating feedback loop. Yeah, but that third person 312 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:21,240 Speaker 1: did crack me up. But then when he did the 313 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,119 Speaker 1: Skeptical Chemist and he chose to do that as a 314 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 1: fictional dialogue, there was also part of me that's like, 315 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:28,879 Speaker 1: maybe he just likes to mix it up, like he 316 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:34,159 Speaker 1: doesn't like the directness of an actual scientific essay or 317 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:37,479 Speaker 1: a scientific writing style. Well, and there are other things 318 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 1: that were written as dialogues. Yeah, so it's like he didn't, 319 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 1: he didn't make that all up. But no, no, no, no, no, 320 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 1: it's interesting that he chose it for that particular thing. 321 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:50,879 Speaker 1: It did make me chuckle. Yeah, Okay, the big thing 322 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:55,640 Speaker 1: I want to talk about, yes, is wealth and wealth inequality. Okay, 323 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:05,360 Speaker 1: because listen, Robert Boyle was a man born to incredible privilege, right, 324 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 1: and if you really look at his whole life, everything 325 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 1: he was able to achieve was a direct result of 326 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 1: that privilege. Right. He inherited a big, empty castle that 327 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 1: he could go stay at, right set of castle, or 328 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 1: in any case, a big where he could go stay 329 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 1: and do experiments. Because he didn't have to work and 330 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 1: he didn't have anything else going on. Not many people 331 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 1: have that ever. And then you know, even when he 332 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 1: was like at Oxford, he you know, he fell in 333 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:42,920 Speaker 1: with a lot of great thinkers in part because that 334 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:47,200 Speaker 1: the work he did in his big, empty home opened 335 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 1: the door for him to have, you know, intellectual discourse 336 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 1: with other people that did experiments, which then brought him 337 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:57,439 Speaker 1: into their circle at Oxford and then at London, and 338 00:21:57,480 --> 00:21:59,639 Speaker 1: even in his later years when he's living with his 339 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 1: sister Catherine, they are living in a very fancy part 340 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:05,159 Speaker 1: of town. They were on Pall Mall, which you know 341 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:09,200 Speaker 1: was where all of the wealthy people lived, and he 342 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 1: was able to afford to set up a whole lab 343 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 1: of his own that was not part of his Oxford setup. So, like, 344 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:18,919 Speaker 1: it is one of those things that especially kept jumping 345 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 1: out to me. And I don't know if I'm just 346 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 1: being hypercritical of poor Robert Boyle, but like he gets 347 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: held up as the first modern chemist, but he didn't 348 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:32,879 Speaker 1: really invent or discover a whole lot, right, He just 349 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 1: spent a lot of money in his lab doing things, 350 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:40,200 Speaker 1: which is cool, and it does again fostered that idea 351 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 1: of exploration and experimentation among his peers. But I'm also like, 352 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 1: the one thing that you're really well known for was 353 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 1: kind of an accident, And I mean, I shouldn't boil 354 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,679 Speaker 1: it down to that. He was doing a very clearly 355 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:59,880 Speaker 1: laid out experiment and observing the results. But I feel 356 00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:02,159 Speaker 1: like a lot of his place in the history of 357 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 1: science is because he was a wealthy dude who got 358 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:09,359 Speaker 1: to do wealthy dude stuff and then met other wealthy 359 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:13,360 Speaker 1: dudes and they wealthy duded together. Yeah. Well, we had 360 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 1: the whole era of like the gentleman's science scientists gentlemen like. 361 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,119 Speaker 1: Some of that was a bit later than Robert Boyle, 362 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 1: like more into the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, prior to 363 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 1: as much formalization and professionalization of like the educational system 364 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 1: and the idea of what a chemist is. Yeah, but yeah, 365 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 1: I think about that too, And I also think about 366 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:44,239 Speaker 1: how many of them also had a sister or a 367 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,359 Speaker 1: daughter or a wife who was doing a lot of 368 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: record keeping or note taking or whatever. Well, and Catherine 369 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:55,880 Speaker 1: is actually on my list because she had her hands 370 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 1: in a lot of pies in the best way of 371 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:05,200 Speaker 1: like supporting financially just supporting, like through encouragement a lot 372 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:07,359 Speaker 1: of people that were doing a lot of science and 373 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 1: other things. She is a pretty interesting figure and really 374 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 1: pretty pivotal in that surge of discovery at the time. 375 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 1: But yeah, it makes sure you start to look at 376 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,120 Speaker 1: like all of the people that I shouldn't say all, 377 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,439 Speaker 1: many of the people that are lauded as you know, 378 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:28,640 Speaker 1: great pioneers in their field were able to be that 379 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 1: because in many cases there was general wealth in the mix. 380 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 1: Now there is an interesting flip on this though, because 381 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,439 Speaker 1: then I think about less than one hundred years earlier, 382 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 1: Thomas Harriet and Galileo were both looking at the moon 383 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,720 Speaker 1: through a telescope at the same time. Oh sure, but 384 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,920 Speaker 1: because Thomas Harriot had tons of money, he didn't publish 385 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 1: anything because he didn't need to, whereas Galilea was like, 386 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,119 Speaker 1: I look at the thing I looked at. I know 387 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 1: what the moon looks like. You guys, somebody pay me. 388 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 1: So there's a flip on that one. But and so yeah, 389 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:05,200 Speaker 1: it's just I'm fascinated by the way that wealth plays 390 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 1: into the stories that we tell about discovery, pioneering in 391 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 1: scientific fields, et cetera. When there are so many other 392 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 1: people who were probably working as hard or harder, possibly 393 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:23,119 Speaker 1: even in the same fields, but maybe even not in 394 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 1: you know, some other job that don't ever get recognized anyway. 395 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:28,480 Speaker 1: That's I gotta be in my bonnet today about this. 396 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 1: I don't know what's up with that. It's a voting day, 397 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 1: so maybe it's just maybe that's anyway. Robert Boyle, I 398 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:46,879 Speaker 1: find him fascinating. I didn't know anything about the like 399 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:52,679 Speaker 1: religious elements of his work at all. Oh, yeah, it 400 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 1: is weird because he was he was so hell bent 401 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:01,159 Speaker 1: on the idea that everyone that was not Christian was 402 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 1: doing it wrong, which is such a weird mindset for 403 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 1: someone who is kind of trying to bumble their way 404 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 1: through understanding the world more deeply. Mm hmm, Like you know, 405 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,399 Speaker 1: you don't know everything because you're trying to learn things, 406 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:19,480 Speaker 1: but also you think you know everything. Yeah, what's going on? 407 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:30,680 Speaker 1: Rob anyway, Robert Boyle fascinating person, very important in history, 408 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:35,120 Speaker 1: but also got you gotta look at the context. Yeah. 409 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 1: May may we all have the good fortune to get 410 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:40,840 Speaker 1: a ton of money and do experiments and putter in 411 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 1: the way we desire. If this is your weekend coming up, 412 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 1: I hope you have whatever financing you would need in 413 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:51,159 Speaker 1: place to do something cool, maybe experimental, but in a 414 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 1: safe way. But also I just hope, like you have peace, 415 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 1: you have some rest and relaxation and time to just 416 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:00,239 Speaker 1: think about whatever you would like and putter or if 417 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 1: you want. I love a good putter, Oh, I love 418 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,080 Speaker 1: it so much. If you don't have time off this weekend, 419 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:07,640 Speaker 1: I hope that you still get some puttering in. I'm 420 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,160 Speaker 1: gonna putter around in my sewing room after we're done recording. 421 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 1: Will I do anything about you, I don't know, but 422 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:15,480 Speaker 1: I'm gonna putter. I hope though, that if you are working, 423 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,439 Speaker 1: that you have as smooth as time as possible in 424 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,879 Speaker 1: those endeavors. And I hope that everyone is kind to 425 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 1: one another and we all take care of each other. 426 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 1: We will be back here on Monday with a brand 427 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:31,119 Speaker 1: new episode. We will also have a classic episode for 428 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 1: you tomorrow. Stuff You Missed in History Class is a 429 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the 430 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,879 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 431 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:47,639 Speaker 1: favorite shows.