1
00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:15,480
Speaker 1: There's been a lot of uproar over the last few

2
00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:21,120
Speaker 1: days about a film that Michael Moore executive produced and

3
00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:26,080
Speaker 1: Jeff Gibbs directed and Ozzie Zayner produced called Planet of

4
00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:29,800
Speaker 1: the Humans. Was released on Earth Day this year, and

5
00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:33,640
Speaker 1: initially I think some people were excited about it. You know,

6
00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:37,040
Speaker 1: a climate movie by Michael Moore sounds like it might

7
00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:42,840
Speaker 1: interrogate capitalism or power structures. Instead, it winds up targeting

8
00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:47,400
Speaker 1: the environmental movement and renewable energy. Now I'm not saying

9
00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:51,320
Speaker 1: that either or both of those things is not worthy

10
00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:55,480
Speaker 1: of critique. They both are. There are problems in both

11
00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:59,840
Speaker 1: the big environmental movement and in the renewable energy supply chain.

12
00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:03,360
Speaker 1: In fact, that's one of my biggest issues with this

13
00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:06,760
Speaker 1: film that it took what could have been an intelligent

14
00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:10,680
Speaker 1: and nuanced critique of some of the ways that we're

15
00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:14,400
Speaker 1: going about trying to solve climate change and turned it

16
00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:20,640
Speaker 1: into a badly researched, poorly executed hit job on some

17
00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:25,080
Speaker 1: undeserving environmental leaders. The film is tough to watch, and

18
00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:28,280
Speaker 1: not just because of Gibbs's monotone, which I feel like

19
00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:31,560
Speaker 1: you need to hear to appreciate. So here's a little snippet.

20
00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:35,640
Speaker 2: So I decided to begin following the green energy movement.

21
00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:41,600
Speaker 2: What better place to check out how a renewable energy

22
00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:44,480
Speaker 2: revolution is coming along than a solar festival in the

23
00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:48,000
Speaker 2: green Mountain state of Vermont, powered by one hundred percent

24
00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:57,120
Speaker 2: solar energy. So I was having fun and got a

25
00:01:57,200 --> 00:01:59,760
Speaker 2: chance to ask about getting solar panels installed.

26
00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:02,200
Speaker 3: You can keep adding so maybe every time you get

27
00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:06,880
Speaker 3: a tax return, it's the solar panel.

28
00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:09,440
Speaker 2: But then a little rain began to fall.

29
00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:17,640
Speaker 1: I was having fun anyway. If it was just the monotone,

30
00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:20,200
Speaker 1: I could deal with it. My big issue here is

31
00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:24,600
Speaker 1: really the outdated information and the jumping to unfounded conclusions.

32
00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:27,200
Speaker 1: I think the newest bit of footage in this film

33
00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:30,560
Speaker 1: is from twenty twelve, and when you're dealing with something

34
00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:34,760
Speaker 1: like renewable energy, where the technology and the context changes

35
00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:38,000
Speaker 1: rather quickly, you kind of have to keep your information

36
00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:42,240
Speaker 1: up to date. That's not the only outdated and debunked

37
00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:46,120
Speaker 1: thing in this film. At a certain point, director Jeff

38
00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:49,040
Speaker 1: Gibbs makes it clear what he thinks the real solution

39
00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:54,960
Speaker 1: is the one that environmentalists are afraid of population control,

40
00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:58,800
Speaker 1: that old canard. First of all, it's something that comes

41
00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:01,840
Speaker 1: up every ten years. The idea that it either hasn't

42
00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:04,560
Speaker 1: been discussed or that it's been widely avoided by the

43
00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:09,160
Speaker 1: environmental movement is just not true. But secondly, the largest

44
00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:12,200
Speaker 1: emitters in the world are in the Western world, where

45
00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:15,880
Speaker 1: birth rate is declining, in fact, so much so that

46
00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:19,000
Speaker 1: a lot of politicians are often wringing their hands about it.

47
00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:22,440
Speaker 1: So usually when you have a bunch of white experts

48
00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:26,360
Speaker 1: saying that population is the solution to any problem, it's

49
00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:31,120
Speaker 1: kind of code for a eugenicist view of the world. Again,

50
00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:36,160
Speaker 1: Gibbs brings up some true and valid critiques of the

51
00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:40,440
Speaker 1: environmental space in this film, including the ways in which

52
00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:44,360
Speaker 1: some aspects of the renewable energy supply chain are repeating

53
00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:48,600
Speaker 1: mistakes from the fossil fuel supply chain, the massive boondoggle

54
00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:52,960
Speaker 1: that is biomass, and yeah, probably some parts of the

55
00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:56,720
Speaker 1: environmental movement have gotten a little too cozy with capitalism,

56
00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:01,720
Speaker 1: but none of those end up being well argued or documented. Instead,

57
00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:05,960
Speaker 1: the movie kind of jumps around from one conclusion to another,

58
00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:09,600
Speaker 1: uses a bunch of experts who are never even named,

59
00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:14,400
Speaker 1: and cherry picks data points that are from a decade

60
00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:18,240
Speaker 1: or more ago. On everything from the efficiency of solar

61
00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:23,960
Speaker 1: panels to how the electrical grid handles renewables. To correct

62
00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:28,080
Speaker 1: some of those issues, I've brought in Leah Stokes. She

63
00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:32,600
Speaker 1: is a political scientist and a professor at the University

64
00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:35,840
Speaker 1: of California at Santa Barbara. She has focused all of

65
00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:39,919
Speaker 1: her research on the electrical grid and the energy system,

66
00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:44,240
Speaker 1: energy policy, who shapes it and how and why? And

67
00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:46,680
Speaker 1: she's just come out with a book relatively recently called

68
00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:52,520
Speaker 1: Short Circuiting Policy about utilities role in delaying action on climate.

69
00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:55,719
Speaker 1: As you'll hear in this interview, Leah has spent quite

70
00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:58,599
Speaker 1: a bit of time reporting her book as well, and she,

71
00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:03,279
Speaker 1: unlike Gibbs, had to update it fairly often. It's just

72
00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:05,760
Speaker 1: come out last month. We have an excerpt up on

73
00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:08,000
Speaker 1: the Drilled News website if you want to check out

74
00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:10,480
Speaker 1: a little preview. And in this episode, I'm going to

75
00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:13,279
Speaker 1: talk to Leah about what the More film gets wrong

76
00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:16,680
Speaker 1: on renewable energy. She also has a story up on

77
00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:20,800
Speaker 1: vox right now detailing some more of her arguments on

78
00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:23,159
Speaker 1: this subject, so you can check that out. We'll drop

79
00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:26,040
Speaker 1: a link in the show notes that conversation is coming

80
00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:29,160
Speaker 1: up right after this quick word from today's sponsor. I'm

81
00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:47,719
Speaker 1: Amy Westervelt, and this is drilled. If you had to

82
00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:51,760
Speaker 1: pick one thing that bothers you the most about planet

83
00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:53,640
Speaker 1: of the humans, what would it be.

84
00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:58,840
Speaker 3: I think it's the attack on environmental groups because it's

85
00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:02,080
Speaker 3: just not true the things that they say about what

86
00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:06,560
Speaker 3: environmental groups are doing, and particularly in this moment when

87
00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:10,560
Speaker 3: the climate movement has had such a breakthrough in the

88
00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:13,599
Speaker 3: media and groups like Sunrise and Fridays for Future with

89
00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:17,479
Speaker 3: Greta Tunberg have just catapulted climate change to the top

90
00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:20,880
Speaker 3: of the agenda, and rather than joining with those groups,

91
00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:24,479
Speaker 3: it attacks them and pretends that somehow three fifty dot

92
00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:28,599
Speaker 3: Org or the Sierra Club or Energy c are our enemy,

93
00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:32,159
Speaker 3: when really they are part of the fight to address

94
00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:33,080
Speaker 3: the climate crisis.

95
00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:37,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I know, especially the whole segment on biomass.

96
00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:39,360
Speaker 1: I just I'm like you, if you're going to make

97
00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:44,680
Speaker 1: arguments about kind of evolving technologies, you cannot like report

98
00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:47,680
Speaker 1: something four or five years ago and then not update it,

99
00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:48,320
Speaker 1: you know what I mean.

100
00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:49,159
Speaker 2: Yeah.

101
00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:53,279
Speaker 3: I read a little bit about it and also watched

102
00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:55,680
Speaker 3: this Colbert interview with Michael Moore, and I think what

103
00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:59,360
Speaker 3: happened was Jeff Gibbs, who's a longtime producer with Michael Moore,

104
00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:03,600
Speaker 3: had wanted to make a film, and for a long

105
00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:07,159
Speaker 3: time he was kind of just like driving around and

106
00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:11,520
Speaker 3: you know, collecting information, talking to people because you'll see

107
00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:13,960
Speaker 3: some of the early footages in Michigan and like I

108
00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:14,440
Speaker 3: don't know.

109
00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,320
Speaker 1: Was introduced, which was like two thousand and seven eight

110
00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:22,640
Speaker 1: exactly exactly the Wayback Machine.

111
00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:26,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, so what I heard from that interview with Michael

112
00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:30,880
Speaker 3: Moore is that basically these guys were under coronavirus lockdown,

113
00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:34,360
Speaker 3: and I bet that Jeff Gibbs as a procrastinator, and

114
00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:37,240
Speaker 3: Michael Moore was like, we're gonna whip this thing into shape,

115
00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:39,400
Speaker 3: and so he just took, you know, the pieces of

116
00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:41,680
Speaker 3: this film that had been reported a decade ago and

117
00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:44,560
Speaker 3: slapped it together into some half baked narrative and released

118
00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:48,400
Speaker 3: it into the world. Anyway, that's my hypothsis. I don't

119
00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:51,560
Speaker 3: know if it's true, but you know it's it's not

120
00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:54,640
Speaker 3: at all up to date, like this is all ten

121
00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:56,000
Speaker 3: years old, if not more.

122
00:07:56,400 --> 00:08:00,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, what have you seen as sort of the reception

123
00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:03,400
Speaker 1: of the film. I know I've noticed some things on

124
00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:06,440
Speaker 1: social media, but I'm curious what you've seen in terms

125
00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:09,760
Speaker 1: of like how seriously people are taking it, you know,

126
00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:14,000
Speaker 1: how people who maybe don't have the level of expertise

127
00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:16,920
Speaker 1: that you have are receiving the information if it seems

128
00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:17,840
Speaker 1: credible to folks.

129
00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:20,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I think a lot of people in the

130
00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:24,400
Speaker 3: environmental movement naively thought that this just wouldn't get seen

131
00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:26,280
Speaker 3: by very many people, or that it would just go

132
00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:29,320
Speaker 3: away if we ignored it. And it's kind of like,

133
00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:31,560
Speaker 3: how do you deal with climate deniers. They don't just

134
00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:35,079
Speaker 3: go away if you ignore them. They keep sticking around

135
00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:37,760
Speaker 3: and spreading misinformation. And so I think it has to

136
00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:41,200
Speaker 3: be addressed head on because a lot of people who

137
00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:43,360
Speaker 3: are going to watch this film, Like one of my

138
00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:46,240
Speaker 3: research assistants just watched it with her family over the

139
00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:49,240
Speaker 3: weekend and she was infuriated by it. She's worked in

140
00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:51,520
Speaker 3: the solar industry, she knows a lot about the topics,

141
00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:53,760
Speaker 3: but her parents they don't really know that much, and

142
00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:55,359
Speaker 3: they were kind of like, huh.

143
00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:56,080
Speaker 1: Oh, is that true.

144
00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:58,880
Speaker 3: And then of course Emily just reported in her newsletter

145
00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:02,640
Speaker 3: about you know, somebody quitting their membership in three fifty

146
00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:05,720
Speaker 3: because of it. So I think we are naive if

147
00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:08,320
Speaker 3: you go on the YouTube website and you look below

148
00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:11,120
Speaker 3: the comments are all very positive. You have to know

149
00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:14,400
Speaker 3: that Michael Moore has six million Twitter followers. He's a

150
00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:16,920
Speaker 3: household name. Everybody knows who this man is in the

151
00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:21,640
Speaker 3: United States, and so what he does it goes very far,

152
00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:24,560
Speaker 3: and to pretend otherwise is just naive.

153
00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,720
Speaker 1: I've noticed too that actually a lot of the climate

154
00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:31,880
Speaker 1: deniers have picked up on this and are using it

155
00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:35,640
Speaker 1: a lot, you know, or even pulling clips from the

156
00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:40,320
Speaker 1: movie to post to like make their own YouTube videos about,

157
00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:44,000
Speaker 1: like especially the stuff that is critical of Bill mckivin

158
00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:47,000
Speaker 1: or three fifty. So I think too that people have

159
00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,480
Speaker 1: underestimated how much it provides fodder for groups that maybe

160
00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,960
Speaker 1: have different intentions entirely than the filmmakers had. You know,

161
00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:56,480
Speaker 1: I don't know what their goal was.

162
00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:00,720
Speaker 3: But no, it's going to be weaponized our as being

163
00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:03,079
Speaker 3: I mean, I saw a lot of people coming into

164
00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:05,800
Speaker 3: my feed sort of saying, you know, they were like

165
00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:11,720
Speaker 3: libertarian or right wing this climate skeptics, and I just

166
00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:13,839
Speaker 3: think that the film is going to be weaponized by

167
00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:18,400
Speaker 3: those groups and it's going to be really problematic. It's

168
00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,199
Speaker 3: a gift to big oil. That's probably not what their

169
00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:25,160
Speaker 3: intention was, but they weren't thinking responsibly about this film,

170
00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:27,840
Speaker 3: and I think it's just going to spread misinformation and

171
00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:32,640
Speaker 3: climate denial and a sense of doom, this nihilistic feeling

172
00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:34,600
Speaker 3: that there's nothing we can do about climate change, so

173
00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:35,480
Speaker 3: why even try?

174
00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:40,320
Speaker 1: Right right, I want to have you explain something that

175
00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:43,480
Speaker 1: you pointed out in your piece about the difference between

176
00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:47,679
Speaker 1: carbon that's dug up from the ground and burned in

177
00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:50,680
Speaker 1: the form of fossil fuels and you know, wood that's

178
00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:53,720
Speaker 1: burned as part of the biomass thing. Not in any

179
00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:56,840
Speaker 1: way that you're arguing that biomass is terrific or that

180
00:10:56,880 --> 00:10:59,679
Speaker 1: there aren't issues with how it's been executed by I

181
00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:02,760
Speaker 1: feel like people don't necessarily know that little bit. And

182
00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:03,600
Speaker 1: it's interesting.

183
00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:06,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is something that I teach my undergraduates, and

184
00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:08,280
Speaker 3: then I put the question on a problem set and

185
00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:10,640
Speaker 3: they still get it wrong. But then after they've gotten

186
00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:13,320
Speaker 3: it wrong, then they hopefully learn it. So it's basically

187
00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:17,120
Speaker 3: the carbon cycle one oh one. We know that there's

188
00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:20,360
Speaker 3: a certain amount of carbon historically within all the time

189
00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:23,440
Speaker 3: periods that humans have been alive that has been cycling,

190
00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:27,520
Speaker 3: and it moves between the ocean, the air, and the land.

191
00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:30,560
Speaker 3: So sometimes the carbon is locked in trees. Sometimes those

192
00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:34,040
Speaker 3: trees burn through wildfires, then it goes up into the atmosphere,

193
00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:37,280
Speaker 3: and then it moves into the ocean. And that's how

194
00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:40,600
Speaker 3: much carbon we have in the active cycle. We often say,

195
00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:44,200
Speaker 3: but the way that climate change happens is when we

196
00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:47,280
Speaker 3: dig up carbon from underground. That is what a fossil

197
00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:51,560
Speaker 3: fuel is, oil, fossil gas, cool These are all carbon

198
00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:55,240
Speaker 3: stores that are underground that are not actively cycling. They're

199
00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:58,360
Speaker 3: not moving between the land and the air and the water.

200
00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:00,880
Speaker 3: So I often ask my student, and what's the difference

201
00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:04,520
Speaker 3: between burning wood historically, You know, if you burned wood,

202
00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:08,680
Speaker 3: let's say in the eighteen fifties, versus burning fossil fuels today.

203
00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:12,640
Speaker 3: And the difference is that burning fossil fuels brings carbon

204
00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:16,000
Speaker 3: into the active cycle. We often talk about it being

205
00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:18,400
Speaker 3: in the atmosphere in terms of parts per million, right

206
00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:21,160
Speaker 3: we say four hundred and fifteen parts per million is

207
00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:23,160
Speaker 3: what we're at for carbon in the atmosphere, and we

208
00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:25,560
Speaker 3: should be down near three hundred and fifty or something

209
00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:27,960
Speaker 3: like that. We could also talk about it moving into

210
00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:31,720
Speaker 3: the ocean and causing ocean acidification and bleaching coral reefs,

211
00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:35,240
Speaker 3: for example, But all of that extra carbon comes from

212
00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:38,840
Speaker 3: fossil fuels. If we were to burn wood, it will

213
00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:41,560
Speaker 3: also put carbon into the air, but that's not really

214
00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:44,440
Speaker 3: new carbon for the cycle. That carbon was always in

215
00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:48,080
Speaker 3: the cycle. It's really good to store carbon in forests,

216
00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:50,240
Speaker 3: and it's good to keep that carbon in the forests.

217
00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:54,480
Speaker 3: But climate change is fundamentally about fossil fuels, because it's

218
00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:58,800
Speaker 3: about bringing new carbon up from underground into the active cycle.

219
00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:04,720
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. I think to discount the amount of money

220
00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:09,560
Speaker 1: and effort that the fossil fuel industry has expended kind

221
00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:14,400
Speaker 1: of controlling how the entire economy works, and even like

222
00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:18,800
Speaker 1: how people understand how the economy works, you know, like

223
00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:23,080
Speaker 1: the influence that they've had on sort of culture and

224
00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:28,880
Speaker 1: social understandings of things is like vastly underestimated by these guys.

225
00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:31,440
Speaker 3: One hundred percent. I often tell the story of the

226
00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:34,160
Speaker 3: first time I heard about global warming or climate change.

227
00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:37,319
Speaker 3: I was in high school and I had a geography

228
00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:40,760
Speaker 3: teacher who I just loved and he was brilliant. But

229
00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:44,160
Speaker 3: when he introduced climate change, he introduced it as a debate.

230
00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:47,960
Speaker 3: And this was probably around nineteen ninety nine or two thousand.

231
00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:52,400
Speaker 3: You know, they really both through legitimate ways where they

232
00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:55,160
Speaker 3: try to convince people that climate policy is bad for them,

233
00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:59,400
Speaker 3: and illegitimate ways like these sort of fake campaigns astroturfing

234
00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:01,360
Speaker 3: that I also write about a lot in my book

235
00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:05,000
Speaker 3: Short Circuiting Policy. You know, they just completely change the

236
00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:08,800
Speaker 3: narrative around fossil fuels on the one hand and renewables

237
00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:12,520
Speaker 3: on the other. And this film, I mean, I don't

238
00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:15,280
Speaker 3: think it was funded by fossil fuels, not that I know,

239
00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:18,360
Speaker 3: but I'm not suggesting that, but it could have been

240
00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:22,080
Speaker 3: because it is so much playing into their hands.

241
00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:26,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, just for people who haven't seen it. Some of

242
00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:29,800
Speaker 1: the big arguments that this film makes about renewables are

243
00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:35,200
Speaker 1: that they are inefficient, that they are fossil fuel intensive

244
00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:39,520
Speaker 1: to produce, that their lifespan is very short, and that

245
00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:43,720
Speaker 1: the intermittency of renewables like solar and wind mean that

246
00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:47,800
Speaker 1: you have to have kind of cogeneration with fossil fuels.

247
00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:52,120
Speaker 1: At various points, they make the argument that, like, you know,

248
00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:56,880
Speaker 1: there's essentially no difference between renewables and fossil fuels, which

249
00:14:56,920 --> 00:15:00,920
Speaker 1: is just wrong. I think, you know, yes, there is

250
00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:05,360
Speaker 1: certainly a discussion to be had about the supply chain

251
00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:09,400
Speaker 1: of renewable technologies and you know, where are we going

252
00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:11,960
Speaker 1: to source silicon and where are we going to source

253
00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:14,600
Speaker 1: lithium and all of those kinds of things, and how

254
00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:18,160
Speaker 1: do we avoid, you know, creating similar issues with a

255
00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:22,160
Speaker 1: whole different set of energy technologies. Totally valid conversation, you know,

256
00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:24,400
Speaker 1: but a lot of these things that they put to,

257
00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:27,800
Speaker 1: like the efficiency and the intermittency, We've made a lot

258
00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:30,400
Speaker 1: of progress on in the tenures since this film was

259
00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:35,400
Speaker 1: clearly reportant yep. And it's again it's like you can't

260
00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:39,600
Speaker 1: you can't report on new technology and not update your reporting. Yeah.

261
00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:41,960
Speaker 3: I mean I was writing a book about the same

262
00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:46,360
Speaker 3: time that Jeff Gibbs was making this terrible documentary about renewables,

263
00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:50,160
Speaker 3: so I've followed it accidentally in parallel alongside him with

264
00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:54,360
Speaker 3: his work, and so I had to update my draft

265
00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:56,920
Speaker 3: so many times, you know, every time I would come

266
00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,880
Speaker 3: back to the book, the data would have changed. The

267
00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:04,560
Speaker 3: costs in particular for solar have just fallen precipitously, and

268
00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:07,560
Speaker 3: that's not mentioned once in the documentary. So he goes

269
00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:12,720
Speaker 3: to see a solar field sometime around when that was

270
00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:14,040
Speaker 3: it the volts that was released with.

271
00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:17,320
Speaker 1: The poet It's the volts, so around two thousand and seven,

272
00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:18,760
Speaker 1: two thousand and eight in Michigan.

273
00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:24,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, so sometimes around the Inconvenient Truth documentary literally

274
00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:26,880
Speaker 3: that came out in two thousand and seven or six,

275
00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:29,960
Speaker 3: he goes to see a solar field and he's like, wow,

276
00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:33,160
Speaker 3: this can't even power any houses. But the reality is

277
00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:37,280
Speaker 3: that solar efficiencies have gone up so much over the

278
00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:41,200
Speaker 3: over the last you know, fifteen years, and so we

279
00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:44,720
Speaker 3: now are able to create a lot more energy with

280
00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:48,840
Speaker 3: a lot less space and a lot less materials, and

281
00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:52,040
Speaker 3: the same thing for intermittency. I find it so funny.

282
00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:54,880
Speaker 3: So intermittency is basically the idea that you know, the

283
00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:56,880
Speaker 3: sun is not shining all the time, the wind is

284
00:16:56,920 --> 00:16:59,040
Speaker 3: not blowing all the time, and so renewables kind of

285
00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:01,520
Speaker 3: flick on and off. But the grid has to be

286
00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:04,399
Speaker 3: stable three hundred and sixty five days a year twenty

287
00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:07,679
Speaker 3: four to seven, and so it's creates some challenges for

288
00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:09,280
Speaker 3: how you're going to make sure that you keep the

289
00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:12,919
Speaker 3: grid stable. But what we've learned in the intervening fifteen

290
00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:15,720
Speaker 3: years is that you can have much higher levels of

291
00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:19,399
Speaker 3: renewable energy penetration before you really run into problems with

292
00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:22,320
Speaker 3: grid stability. I mean, we're talking like North the fifty

293
00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:25,840
Speaker 3: percent of your electricity can come from renewables. And they

294
00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:29,600
Speaker 3: just kept going on about weird things like if natural

295
00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:32,360
Speaker 3: gas plants ramp somehow they are going to pollute more.

296
00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:34,640
Speaker 3: I have no idea what they're talking about. I had

297
00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:37,040
Speaker 3: not heard of that before. I mean, I'm sure there

298
00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:40,040
Speaker 3: are some efficiency losses to have to match with wind

299
00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:42,879
Speaker 3: and solar, but you have to think about the system overall.

300
00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:46,320
Speaker 3: How much pollution are you burning are you creating in

301
00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:49,600
Speaker 3: this system versus in the counterfactual system, And the film

302
00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:51,960
Speaker 3: makes absolutely no attempt to do that. There's one thing

303
00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:54,680
Speaker 3: that I did not write about in my piece because

304
00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:56,679
Speaker 3: it's a little wonky, but they put this figure up

305
00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:00,680
Speaker 3: at one point where they show how much coal and

306
00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:03,879
Speaker 3: natural gas there is to try to show that fossil

307
00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:06,320
Speaker 3: fuels is not going away, and it's true, they're not

308
00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:09,720
Speaker 3: going away fast enough, but they do it in I

309
00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:12,600
Speaker 3: think BTUs, which is units of energy rather than in

310
00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:16,680
Speaker 3: carbon pollution, and so it completely obscures the fact that,

311
00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:20,760
Speaker 3: for example, when natural gas is displacing coal, we don't

312
00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:24,200
Speaker 3: really know exactly because of methane leakage how much better

313
00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:28,399
Speaker 3: natural gas is than coal, But probably carbon missions are

314
00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:34,679
Speaker 3: going down, and certainly particulate matter, mercury, nitrous oxide, sulfur dioxide.

315
00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:36,679
Speaker 3: These are all the things that go along with coal

316
00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:39,840
Speaker 3: that do not go along generally with natural gas. All

317
00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:42,600
Speaker 3: of those air pollutants are falling during that time period.

318
00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:45,919
Speaker 3: So by putting BTUs on the figure, it makes it

319
00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,880
Speaker 3: seem like, oh, we're just as dirty as we've ever been.

320
00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:52,680
Speaker 3: And from a carbon perspective, it's very complicated, but from

321
00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:57,040
Speaker 3: conventional air pollution perspective, it is fantastic that we are

322
00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:59,520
Speaker 3: moving away from coal towards natural gas.

323
00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:04,280
Speaker 1: For exam right, I just I was honestly surprised that

324
00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:08,159
Speaker 1: there were so few accurate things.

325
00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:11,920
Speaker 3: I watched it with my husband and we were trying

326
00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:13,439
Speaker 3: to fact check it in real time because he does

327
00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:15,920
Speaker 3: climate stuff too, and he was like, oh, I thought

328
00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:18,160
Speaker 3: there would be more facts, Like I thought there would

329
00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:20,360
Speaker 3: be more things that we had to rebut like, even

330
00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:23,359
Speaker 3: if you read Ketan Joshi's rebuttal of it, this is

331
00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:25,359
Speaker 3: this person from Australia who did a fact check of

332
00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,280
Speaker 3: the film. There aren't that many facts to fact check

333
00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:31,040
Speaker 3: because it's not really very factual. Like I wrote that,

334
00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:33,160
Speaker 3: I don't even really think this should be a documentary,

335
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,520
Speaker 3: Like it doesn't it great an information. It's like some

336
00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:39,159
Speaker 3: weird art piece. And you totally see that at the

337
00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:42,280
Speaker 3: end when somehow there's an orangutang dying god knows where.

338
00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:46,919
Speaker 3: And the craziest thing is that footage, if I understand correctly,

339
00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:50,159
Speaker 3: wasn't even film by them. They just took this traumatizing

340
00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:52,879
Speaker 3: image of this orangutang dying and stuck at the end

341
00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:55,240
Speaker 3: of their depressing film to make you even more depressed.

342
00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:58,240
Speaker 3: We had absolutely nothing to do with any other parts

343
00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:01,120
Speaker 3: of the film. So yeah, it wasn't really about facts

344
00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,280
Speaker 3: or a coherent narrative backed up by evidence. I think

345
00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:07,200
Speaker 3: Emily put it well. You know, if if this had

346
00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:08,800
Speaker 3: been handed in, let's say it was an essay and

347
00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:10,600
Speaker 3: it had been handed in as an assignment for a

348
00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,040
Speaker 3: course that I was teaching, I don't think it would

349
00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:15,040
Speaker 3: get better than a d You know, this is a

350
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:16,919
Speaker 3: very poorly done piece of work.

351
00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:19,040
Speaker 1: Okay, So the last thing I want to ask you

352
00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:23,399
Speaker 1: about is the whole argument about population, which to me,

353
00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,359
Speaker 1: the idea of population reduction as a solution to climate

354
00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:30,560
Speaker 1: change is like as wrongheaded as a like one hundred

355
00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:34,520
Speaker 1: percent technocratic approach. They both assume that there's no amount

356
00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:40,320
Speaker 1: of social change that can or should happen. Yeah, you know,

357
00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:43,440
Speaker 1: better technology on one end and fewer humans on the other.

358
00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:47,480
Speaker 3: Of course it comes up. I remember being an undergraduate

359
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,359
Speaker 3: and there was a used book sale and I picked

360
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:53,800
Speaker 3: up a copy of The Population Bomb, not really knowing

361
00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:58,960
Speaker 3: the history of that book or it's important, you know,

362
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:00,840
Speaker 3: this was sort of part of the idea that the

363
00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:04,320
Speaker 3: earth had finite resources and that population was going to

364
00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:07,119
Speaker 3: overrun it. And of course it was proven wrong in

365
00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:10,920
Speaker 3: many ways because there's something called the Kaya identity or

366
00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:14,720
Speaker 3: the iPad, which is the idea that environmental impact is

367
00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:20,080
Speaker 3: a function of population, yes, but also affluence and technology.

368
00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:25,879
Speaker 3: And I think that when you think about those three levers, population, affluence,

369
00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,920
Speaker 3: and technology, it makes a lot more sense to pull

370
00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:34,280
Speaker 3: on affluence and technology, especially when you recognize that wealthy

371
00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,879
Speaker 3: white people are not having that many babies, and wealthy

372
00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:41,320
Speaker 3: white people are the ones with the largest environmental footprint.

373
00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:43,280
Speaker 1: Because of course this yeah.

374
00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:45,639
Speaker 3: Of course, of course this film throws out technology that's

375
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:48,119
Speaker 3: not even a solution according to them, And it's so

376
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,959
Speaker 3: bizarre to me that Michael Moore, who's in the lefty literati,

377
00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:56,359
Speaker 3: did not somehow put affluence and capitalism on the table.

378
00:21:56,400 --> 00:22:01,840
Speaker 3: You know, all of your movies about how capitalism is bad.

379
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,560
Speaker 1: How did this one leave that out? I don't understand.

380
00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:07,600
Speaker 3: I know the editor I was working on for the

381
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:09,399
Speaker 3: piece pointed that out, and so that'll be in my

382
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:11,720
Speaker 3: article too, that if you look about if you think

383
00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,760
Speaker 3: about Bulling for Columbine or Sicico or Roger and me,

384
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:17,359
Speaker 3: I mean, all he does is criticize corporations, and yet

385
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:21,040
Speaker 3: here we are with him criticizing environmental groups that are

386
00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:27,040
Speaker 3: battling corporations. It's very nonsensical. So you know, I remember

387
00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:30,080
Speaker 3: clearly I was looking at houses with a real state agent,

388
00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:32,760
Speaker 3: and real estate agents often tend to be nothing against them.

389
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:35,800
Speaker 3: I'm sure there's some great realestate agents, but in my experience,

390
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:40,760
Speaker 3: I have seen racism practiced more when I've been looking

391
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:43,440
Speaker 3: for a home than ever else in my life, because

392
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,600
Speaker 3: real estate agents kind of sort you into neighborhoods that

393
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:48,879
Speaker 3: they think you're supposed to be in, and in the US,

394
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:51,480
Speaker 3: with the way that the school districts are aligned with

395
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:56,879
Speaker 3: property values, they kind of make racial neighborhoods. Anyway, so

396
00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:58,600
Speaker 3: one time I was with this real estate agent and

397
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:00,800
Speaker 3: she said to me and my husband, well, you don't

398
00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:02,879
Speaker 3: want to live here because those people, they have too

399
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:06,119
Speaker 3: many babies. And she was talking about Hispanic communities, and

400
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,800
Speaker 3: she said, you know, people like you, you guys need

401
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:11,560
Speaker 3: to be having more babies because you're not having enough babies.

402
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:14,879
Speaker 3: And that's I feel like that really captured exactly what

403
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:18,720
Speaker 3: the population control thing ends up being about. It ends

404
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,959
Speaker 3: up being about who should be having babies. White people

405
00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 3: somehow should be having babies, and black and brown and

406
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:30,719
Speaker 3: Indigenous people somehow shouldn't, I guess because we're racist. And

407
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:35,359
Speaker 3: you know, so my husband, who's Madame Mildenberger, he he

408
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,639
Speaker 3: did some work on Garrett Harden, who wrote that article

409
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:42,320
Speaker 3: that's really famous, Tragedy of the Commons. And you know,

410
00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:45,680
Speaker 3: Garrett Harden was at UC Santa Barbara where we work,

411
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 3: and when Trump was elected, I joined the Southern Poverty

412
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,760
Speaker 3: Law Center, which tracks hate groups in the United States,

413
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,640
Speaker 3: and what I learned was that there's a hate group

414
00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:58,720
Speaker 3: in Santa Barbara. And I looked up what it is,

415
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:02,119
Speaker 3: and it's a population can control anti immigration group that

416
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:06,119
Speaker 3: Garrett Harden was involved in founding So you know these

417
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:10,520
Speaker 3: the environmental movement has a racist past. You know the

418
00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:14,360
Speaker 3: way John Muir, for example, talked about indigenous peoples. Garrett

419
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:17,920
Speaker 3: Harden pushed this idea of lifeboat ethics, which was about

420
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 3: overthrowing sort of black and brown people to keep white

421
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:26,359
Speaker 3: people to have the resources on the boat. And so, yeah,

422
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 3: I just think that if you're going to just randomly

423
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,359
Speaker 3: be like, yeah, population controls the answer, and you don't

424
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,000
Speaker 3: do any reading about the history of that thinking and

425
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 3: its ties to anti immigration hate groups or like white supremacy,

426
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know what you're thinking.

427
00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:04,360
Speaker 1: That's it for this time. Thanks for joining us. We'll

428
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 1: be back later this week with another episode, maybe two

429
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:10,480
Speaker 1: if I can get it together, and don't forget to

430
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:13,400
Speaker 1: sign up for our newsletter. We do a weekly recap

431
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 1: of climate accountability news across the web and various other

432
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 1: media channels. We also do have a paid subscription option there,

433
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:26,159
Speaker 1: and we also have a membership option through Patreon. In

434
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:30,400
Speaker 1: both those cases, you get access to add free podcast episodes,

435
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:35,359
Speaker 1: sneak previews of stories coming up, additional bonus content, and

436
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 1: you get to support our work and help us make

437
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:42,160
Speaker 1: it free for everybody else, so we really appreciate that.

438
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 1: We'll drop a link in the show notes to all

439
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 1: the details on those things as well. Thanks for listening

440
00:25:47,359 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 1: and we'll see you soon. Then the back back, back

441
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:13,680
Speaker 1: back