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Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of five,

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Speaker 1: an author, journalist, and speaker.

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Speaker 2: And this is Sarah Hartunger. I'm a mother of three,

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Speaker 2: a practicing physician and blogger. On the side, we are

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Speaker 2: two working parents who love our careers and our families.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about

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Speaker 1: how real women manage work, family, and time for fun,

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Speaker 1: from figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals.

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Speaker 1: We want you to get the most out of life.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. This

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Speaker 1: episode is first airing and early to mid January of

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty four. We welcome any new listeners who are

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Speaker 1: joining us, who've just found us. Maybe you're looking for

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Speaker 1: new content in the new year, looking for ways to

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Speaker 1: combine work in life and generally enjoy life as you

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Speaker 1: are doing it, so welcome. We run mailbag episodes from

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Speaker 1: time to time, and you can reach us in a

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Speaker 1: bunch of different ways. You can always email me. My

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Speaker 1: email address is Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. You

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Speaker 1: can post a comment on my blog, which is Laura

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Speaker 1: vandercam dot com. There's also a contact form on my

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Speaker 1: website and you fill that out. I promise that actually

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Speaker 1: does come to my inbox and I look at it

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Speaker 1: as long as you're not sending me links for ads

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Speaker 1: to some ridiculous thing. I do in fact read all

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Speaker 1: of those. So that is an easy way to reach me.

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Speaker 1: And we can use questions in future mail bags and Sarah,

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Speaker 1: people can reach out to you as well.

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Speaker 2: Of course, you can always find my near daily writing

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Speaker 2: at the shoebox dot com t e s hu box

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Speaker 2: dot com and you can leave a question there in

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Speaker 2: the comments. You can email me. It's just my name,

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Speaker 2: Sarah dot heart dot unger at gmail dot com. You

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Speaker 2: can even text me, but I never have that number handy,

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Speaker 2: so you can look at any best laid planned show

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Speaker 2: notes for that number and you can text me anytime.

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Speaker 1: So lots of ways to reach us. Let us know

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Speaker 1: your questions anything related to careers, family, organization, health, life,

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Speaker 1: you know whatever. We cover all sorts of topics, so

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Speaker 1: we are looking forward to hearing from you. So we

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Speaker 1: will go ahead and dive right into this mail bag,

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Speaker 1: which we got a lot of questions, so thank you.

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Speaker 1: So the first one, Sarah, let's tackle this. This person writes,

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Speaker 1: my family is busy. M not the rest of us.

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Speaker 1: I guess no, we're all busy, but this person starts

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Speaker 1: with that. So anyway, they're doing a lot of different things.

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Speaker 1: This person works full time, is starting graduate school. Her

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Speaker 1: husband also has a busy full time job, is also

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Speaker 1: in graduate school, so a lot of things going on.

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Speaker 1: They have a six year old and an eight year

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Speaker 1: old who each have activities. She writes, Simplification systems and

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Speaker 1: generally making things easier is a big twenty twenty four

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Speaker 1: focus in order to get it all done without unnecessary stress.

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Speaker 1: So what are some of the ways that you all

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Speaker 1: have simplified, streamlined, or done things differently to get through

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Speaker 1: especially busy seasons of life, Or if there's anything we've

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Speaker 1: tried and that hasn't worked, you'd like to hear that too.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think you're at a perfect time with

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Speaker 2: your kids ages six and eight to have them really

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Speaker 2: kind of do some more of their own stuff, because

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Speaker 2: I often find it's right at that age that you

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Speaker 2: were used to kind of like doing everything like carefully

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Speaker 2: setting up their breakfast or something like that, you know,

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Speaker 2: putting away every article of clothing. But six and eight

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Speaker 2: year olds can do a lot, so that might actually

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Speaker 2: be part of what could perhaps streamline things. You would

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Speaker 2: have to accept less perfectionistic standards if you're going to

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Speaker 2: be having your kids help out. But on the flip side,

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Speaker 2: you're teaching them responsibility and life skills, so that's always good.

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Speaker 2: I would say, even though you're very, very busy and

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Speaker 2: you have full time careers, there's still usually some vacation

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Speaker 2: time or paid leave time to use. So I would

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Speaker 2: be super super strategic about even using that in microdoses

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Speaker 2: to give yourself a break every once in a while,

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Speaker 2: because I find that if I have something on the calendar,

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Speaker 2: even if it's just half a day of paid leave

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Speaker 2: where I'm like, I'm not doing anything, just makes me

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Speaker 2: feel better about the times when I am just kind

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Speaker 2: of leading a really full life with one thing after another.

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Speaker 2: So I do highly recommend trying that. And then finally,

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Speaker 2: it might be good to just take an inventory of

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Speaker 2: all the things that you are busy with and see

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Speaker 2: if there's anything that's just like not necessary anymore, either

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Speaker 2: if you've aged out of it or you feel like,

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Speaker 2: you know what, I've been doing that because everyone else

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Speaker 2: does it, but like, do I need to do it,

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Speaker 2: And I tried to think about like an example for me,

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Speaker 2: and a lot of people in my neighborhood will do

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Speaker 2: like cute seasonal decor for different holidays, and I'm like, Nope,

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Speaker 2: never not happening. So like I could do that and

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Speaker 2: it would be another thing on my to do list,

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Speaker 2: but I've just decided there's only so many things we

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Speaker 2: can do, and I'm gonna do something else instead.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, anytime someone is in a particular or busy season.

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Speaker 1: I actually do recommend time tracking, just because it's helpful

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Speaker 1: to see exactly how much time the big chunks of

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Speaker 1: your life that you are devoting to these big projects

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Speaker 1: are truly taking, because it can feel like, well, everything's

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Speaker 1: taking all my time. And certainly a full time job,

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Speaker 1: raising a family, going to graduate school, all of those

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Speaker 1: are things that people might be spending the majority of

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Speaker 1: their time doing. Those things might be someone's complete focus,

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Speaker 1: and here you are taking on all three simultaneously, but

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Speaker 1: they all take some chunk of hours out of your

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Speaker 1: one hundred and sixty eight hours in a week, and

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Speaker 1: it might be helpful to see what sort of hours

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Speaker 1: you are devoting to each of them, and where there

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Speaker 1: is time that you can devote to other things. So

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Speaker 1: really map it in, see what an ideal week would

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Speaker 1: look like. After you timetrack, say well, what would I

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Speaker 1: like the schedule of classes and homework to look like,

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Speaker 1: combined with the full time job obligations I have, combined

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Speaker 1: with what I need to do with my kids and

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Speaker 1: what I want to do with my kids. Sort of

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Speaker 1: get an idea of what a good template would look.

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Speaker 1: It won't always work for you to have weeks like that,

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Speaker 1: but at least it gives you an idea of what

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Speaker 1: you are in for which you can then build some

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Speaker 1: downtime into as well. I find that people who are

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Speaker 1: incredibly busy often benefit from having some sort of sabbath,

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Speaker 1: and not necessarily in a religious sense, but that there

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Speaker 1: is one day when you don't do those things right.

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Speaker 1: So you're like, I'm going to work like crazy six

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Speaker 1: days a week, but one day a week I'm not.

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Speaker 1: Or maybe it's not even a full day, it's just

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Speaker 1: that Wednesday night after work going to do nothing right.

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Speaker 1: That's the night that we don't do any of those things.

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Speaker 1: And then the other night everything can be busy, we

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Speaker 1: can have other obligations, but that's one time off, and

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Speaker 1: I find that can be helpful to establish a little

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Speaker 1: bit of a rhythm that you are not always having

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Speaker 1: to do something. So you might think about that purposeful

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Speaker 1: recovery time. Purposeful recovery time exactly question two, Sarah, This

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Speaker 1: person writes, how do you find time for creativity and

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Speaker 1: play in your life? And what do you do? This

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Speaker 1: person recently read The Gifts of Imperfection and which advocates

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Speaker 1: having time for play and things like that, and realize

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Speaker 1: that this person has little of any of this. She

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Speaker 1: works a corporate job with lots of email and spreadsheets.

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Speaker 1: She says she's not particularly artistic or team sporty, so

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Speaker 1: she's looking for outside the box ideas to add to

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Speaker 1: her life. She plays the pianos, sometimes occasionally goes to

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Speaker 1: a yoga or fitness class, but that doesn't necessarily feel

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Speaker 1: like creativity or play to her. So, Sarah, what fits

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Speaker 1: those buckets in your life? Yeah? My buckets.

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Speaker 2: I mean when I think about what my fun hobbies are,

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Speaker 2: they are running and they are reading. And I guess

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Speaker 2: I'll push back on the idea that like your piano

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Speaker 2: and fitness classes wouldn't necessarily fill this need. Although I

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Speaker 2: guess if personally it doesn't feel that fulfilling, maybe you

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Speaker 2: want to figure out how you can maybe adjust those

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Speaker 2: hobbies and still enjoy them, but find ways to do them,

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Speaker 2: maybe just a.

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Speaker 1: Little more creatively.

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Speaker 2: So for example, you wouldn't think running is like all

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Speaker 2: that creative, but I mean there's following a training plan,

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Speaker 2: reading about training plans, talking to other people about running,

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Speaker 2: looking at gear, having a running group with friends to

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Speaker 2: talk about, be hosting a gathering, looking at races, trying

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Speaker 2: to be creative about like what would be a fun

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Speaker 2: race to go to, or like destinations. So I mean, yes,

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Speaker 2: I'm not like sitting there like making an artwork, but

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Speaker 2: I still feel playful with how I approach that, and

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Speaker 2: I also don't take it so seriously, like to make

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Speaker 2: it to the point where it would like become a

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Speaker 2: job or something a chore or something like that. And

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Speaker 2: then same with reading. I mean, I enjoy books. I

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Speaker 2: have fun looking at people's TVR lists and making mine

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Speaker 2: and doing book club and talking about books and sending

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Speaker 2: text to friends about books. And you know those are

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Speaker 2: not again like super highbrow like artistic or I don't know,

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Speaker 2: like people might not initially call those creative, but I

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Speaker 2: feel like there's enough there and they definitely feel like

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Speaker 2: play to me and that I enjoy them.

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Speaker 1: So I guess I.

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Speaker 2: Would dive deeper into the things you're already doing and

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Speaker 2: see if you can find some aspects that might make

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Speaker 2: them feel more playful or fulfilling to you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm wondering if those are things that she feels

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Speaker 1: like she needs to work to get better at and

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Speaker 1: follow like a schedule to get better and so those

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Speaker 1: are going into the realm of things that are purposefully productive,

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Speaker 1: And there's nothing wrong with that, and we enjoy all

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Speaker 1: sorts of activities in that regard. But sometimes you want

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Speaker 1: something in life that you were doing truly just for fun.

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Speaker 1: So I wonder if you could do something that would

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Speaker 1: not fit into that realm of feeling like you are

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Speaker 1: doing it to get better at it or whatever. I mean,

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Speaker 1: maybe it's a sort of fitness class that you know

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Speaker 1: you're going to be terrible at at the beginning, or whatever,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, aerial class or something like that. Or

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Speaker 1: with piano, maybe it's that you're going to play something,

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Speaker 1: not working to get better at it, but just site

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Speaker 1: reading random jazz standards or holiday carols or top forty

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Speaker 1: hits that have been transposed for piano, But just something

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Speaker 1: fun like that that you're not thinking like, oh, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to get better at this and perform it. You're

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Speaker 1: just doing it because it's a way to relieve stress.

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Speaker 1: That might help with that mindset. I'm going to throw

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Speaker 1: out two other ideas of things kind of anyone or

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Speaker 1: pretty much almost anyone can do that might feel more

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Speaker 1: like play or creativity. One is that blogging is a

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Speaker 1: creative outlets. So Sarah certainly was doing this for a

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Speaker 1: long time when she wasn't doing it professionally, just as

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Speaker 1: a way to have a creative side in addition to

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Speaker 1: her full time job in medicine. You can just start

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Speaker 1: whenever you want. I mean, nobody's going to be reading

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Speaker 1: your blog at the beginning, so you can do whatever.

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Speaker 1: And then you know, over time, as you leave comments

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Speaker 1: on other people's blogs, people will come check you out.

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Speaker 1: And we've certainly seen some people grow their blogs quite quickly.

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Speaker 1: I know that Sarah and I both read Elizabeth Frost's

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Speaker 1: blog Optimistic Musings, and she started about two years ago

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Speaker 1: two and a half years ago and now has a

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Speaker 1: audience where she regularly gets you know, thirty to forty

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Speaker 1: comments on a post, so that's really grown quite quickly.

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Speaker 1: Another thing you can do. I'm going to throw in

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Speaker 1: an idea of community chorus. Like a lot of people

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Speaker 1: are like, I can't sing. I don't think there are

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Speaker 1: very many people who absolutely can't sing. What it is

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Speaker 1: is most people haven't practice all that much or done

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Speaker 1: it all that much, so they're not confident with it.

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Speaker 1: But you can certainly become that. It's very fun to

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Speaker 1: sing in a group of people. I think it taps

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Speaker 1: into something like our caveman ancestors. We're probably sitting around

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Speaker 1: the fire passing information to each other by singing. So

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Speaker 1: a lot of people find it fun in that kind

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Speaker 1: of almost visceral sort of way. And a great many

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Speaker 1: communities have ensembles that are open to anyone, right, Like

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Speaker 1: you don't have to audition, you don't have to go

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Speaker 1: through you know, challenging music. It's going to be more

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Speaker 1: accessible to everyone. So I would recommend looking into that.

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Speaker 1: Love it.

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Speaker 2: I also feel like, okay to mention the two trending

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Speaker 2: pieces of play right now are pickaball and game nights.

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Speaker 2: I feel like everywhere I turn people are doing those things,

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Speaker 2: so if either of those suits, your fancy could always

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Speaker 2: go that direction as well.

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Speaker 1: One quick question before the ad break, this person writes

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Speaker 1: in have you ever considered the two of you authoring

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Speaker 1: a best of both world book together, best of both

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Speaker 1: worlds book together? Hmmm? I laughed.

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Speaker 2: I was like, Laura, I didn't plant this, I prom

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Speaker 2: because we've kind of like like casually like mentioned it

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Speaker 2: in the abstract, but never really beyond that. Partly just

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Speaker 2: because like I haven't really had time to write any

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Speaker 2: part of a book, so it could happen. I wouldn't

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Speaker 2: like rule it out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, never rule it out. It could happen. But one

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Speaker 1: of the reasons we actually started this podcast is it's

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Speaker 1: a way to share information and build community. That's not

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Speaker 1: the written word. I mean, both of us blog very regularly,

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Speaker 1: and I write other things as well, But it's like

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Speaker 1: that in the modern world, there are a lot of

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Speaker 1: times that people aren't sitting down to read, but they're

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Speaker 1: still looking for content, and a podcast cast fits that

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Speaker 1: very well.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: You can listen while you're in the car and listen

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Speaker 1: while you're working out, and so I think we've definitely

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Speaker 1: produced a lot of content that is more than the

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Speaker 1: equivalent of a book in terms of words we've put

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Speaker 1: out into the world at this point. But you know,

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Speaker 1: there might be a way to organize it too, so

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Speaker 1: we'll never say it ever.

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Speaker 2: It'll be a transcript of every single episode that we've

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Speaker 2: just bound into a thirty volume set.

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Speaker 1: Yesclop Britannica. It'll come to your house in like a truck.

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Speaker 1: I know. Well, I print up our scripts and it's

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Speaker 1: always like four thousand words for two episodes, like whoa, Okay,

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Speaker 1: well that's a lot. I guess we're doing that every

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Speaker 1: two thousand words a week. That'd be one hundred thousand

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Speaker 1: words a year. Wow, it's a lot book book every year.

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Speaker 1: So we have the six volume set already perfect. Right,

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Speaker 1: we're going to take a quick ad break and we'll

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Speaker 1: be back with more mail bag questions. Well, we are

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Speaker 1: back doing our first mail bag episode of the new year.

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Speaker 1: So Sarah, why don't you take this next question?

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Speaker 2: Yes, okay, this person writes, I would like to ask

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Speaker 2: a question about morning routines and entertainment in particular, how

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Speaker 2: do you fit in nonfiction reading in the morning. I

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Speaker 2: feel that morning you should be my most productive time,

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Speaker 2: and I ought to get on with my as fast

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Speaker 2: as possible, or dedicate the time to some workout. However,

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Speaker 2: many people claim that carving out some time for reading

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Speaker 2: in the beginning of the day completely changes their mood

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Speaker 2: for the better.

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Speaker 1: Laura, what do you do? Yeah, I mean, I think

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Speaker 1: this is such a personality thing. I mean think people

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Speaker 1: who enjoy reading first thing really do enjoy it, and

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Speaker 1: that's something they want to make time for first thing.

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Speaker 1: But if you're going to feel rushed while you're doing

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Speaker 1: it and like, oh, I really need to get onto

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Speaker 1: the next thing, then maybe it's not the right thing

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Speaker 1: for you to be doing in the morning. I have

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Speaker 1: generally done my year long reading projects at some point

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Speaker 1: during the first thirty minutes of my work day. So

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Speaker 1: like in twenty twenty three, when I was reading all

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Speaker 1: the works of Jane Austen, I would read my five

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Speaker 1: to ten pages, usually around eight thirty in the morning,

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Speaker 1: so it's not the crack of dawn. I'd usually been

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Speaker 1: up for about two hours at that point, getting kids

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Speaker 1: out the door and things like that, but it was

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Speaker 1: early in the workday. And partly it's because I found

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Speaker 1: I couldn't truly concentrate on focused creative work anyway. Until

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Speaker 1: everyone was out of the house. But I didn't have

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Speaker 1: to be actively working on things like after our childcare

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Speaker 1: had started and you know, our nanny was getting people

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Speaker 1: out the door. I could be in my office working,

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Speaker 1: but this was something I could do knowing that stuff

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Speaker 1: was still going on in the house. I guess that's

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Speaker 1: what I'm saying. So reading fit that for me, and

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Speaker 1: that's why I used that time. And you know, I

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Speaker 1: find it was nice to know that i'd done my

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Speaker 1: reading in the morning because then, no matter what else

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Speaker 1: happens in the day, at least I've read my Jane

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Speaker 1: Austen or the year before or read my Shakespeare. So

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Speaker 1: I like it, but I don't think it's something you

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Speaker 1: have to do, and so if it doesn't appeal to you,

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Speaker 1: like let it go. Agree.

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Speaker 2: I will note that it does appeal to me, and

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Speaker 2: I generally read nonfiction at around four forty five in

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Speaker 2: the morning because I go running after that and I

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Speaker 2: need time to like drink coffee usually I have some

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Speaker 2: carbs with it, and yeah, that's just kind of like

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Speaker 2: how I default start my day. Usually get in about

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Speaker 2: twenty minutes of reading. If I really like when I'm reading,

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Speaker 2: Sometimes a little bit more. I don't feel like it's

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Speaker 2: like some magical change. But I will say the fact

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Speaker 2: that I'm reading means I'm not checking email. I'm not

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Speaker 2: like I'm actually actively avoiding inputs at that time. I'm like,

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Speaker 2: I want to direct how I'm spending this early morning time.

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Speaker 2: I don't even want to know about like the podcast

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Speaker 2: emergency coming down the pike, and so reading is something

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Speaker 2: I can do that is really engaging but not reactive excellent.

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Speaker 1: So do it if it appeals to you. If it doesn't,

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Speaker 1: let it go. All right, Sarah, you can read the

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Speaker 1: next one too.

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Speaker 2: Oh, here's a juicy one. I don't recall hearing from

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Speaker 2: either of you whether you ever wanted to be or

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Speaker 2: considered being a stay at home mom. The podcasts in

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Speaker 2: your books have helped so much, but I still have

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Speaker 2: a feeling in the back of my head, will I

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Speaker 2: regret not staying home while they were little?

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Speaker 1: So I'm going to say that, no, I never wanted

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Speaker 1: to or considered being not sort of in the workforce,

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Speaker 1: I guess while the kids were little. But partly it's

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Speaker 1: because I really love what I do. I mean, the

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Speaker 1: way what I'm doing as I'm working is what a

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Speaker 1: lot of people sort of say they do, like if

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Speaker 1: they didn't have to work, they'd be writing or you

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Speaker 1: know whatever else. And so given that that's what I

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Speaker 1: always wanted to be, that's not something that I would

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Speaker 1: just choose not to do, right, Like, this is much

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Speaker 1: a part of my identity. Like even if I wasn't

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Speaker 1: getting paid for it, I'd be writing during the kids

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Speaker 1: nap times, I'd be writing after they went to bed

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Speaker 1: at night, like I'd be you know, trying to find

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Speaker 1: spots to do stuff. I'd probably be sitting there in

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Speaker 1: this day and age be figuring out can I do

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Speaker 1: a podcast in the little bits of time around their schedules.

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Speaker 1: So really, what it is is that I'm just have

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Speaker 1: a bit more space available to do those things because

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Speaker 1: you know, I've had help with the care of the

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Speaker 1: kids during the days. But with that, the way I

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Speaker 1: work is also so flexible that I don't think I've

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Speaker 1: had to trade off any part of family life that

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Speaker 1: I really wanted to do. Like if I want to

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Speaker 1: take a day off and take a kid somewhere, I

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Speaker 1: can right full stop. And so it's not like I

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Speaker 1: need to be a stay at home mom in order

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Speaker 1: for that to happen, Like it's a choice that I

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Speaker 1: could make, but on some days do and some days don't.

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Speaker 1: Write Or if I wanted to go volunteer in a class, again,

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Speaker 1: I can make that happen. You know, I work from home,

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Speaker 1: so I generally see my older kids when they get

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Speaker 1: off the bus. I know some people think that they

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Speaker 1: need to take a break from work because they'd like

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Speaker 1: to be available to tween and teen children, you know,

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Speaker 1: as they are home from school. And I'm like, well,

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Speaker 1: I can do that and work, so it's not that

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Speaker 1: harsh trade off that I think inspires people to think

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Speaker 1: they need to go one way or another. So I think,

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Speaker 1: just as a sort of out of the box idea,

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Speaker 1: if you're wondering about regret, I wonder if you could

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Speaker 1: do a way of trying it out for some slightly

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Speaker 1: longer period of time. I mean, I'm guessing you may

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Speaker 1: have taken a maternity leave, so maybe that's not really

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Speaker 1: something you haven't experienced, But with your kids being not

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Speaker 1: needy newborns and you recovering from childbirth, there might be

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Speaker 1: a slightly different experience of it. You know, some jobs

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Speaker 1: allow for an unpaid leave of absence for some amount

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Speaker 1: of time, which again, if you're thinking of being a

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Speaker 1: stay at home mom, you're'd be living on somebody else's

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Speaker 1: income or your savings or something anyway, so you might

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Speaker 1: want to see how that works and how that feels.

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Speaker 1: Or maybe if you were thinking of switching jobs, if

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Speaker 1: this is coming up because you're not happy with what

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Speaker 1: you're doing and thinking, well, maybe I should try staying

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Speaker 1: home for a while instead of immediately getting another job.

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Speaker 1: You don't have to immediately get another job. You could say, well,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to take six months to be more of

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Speaker 1: a full time parent. I guess how I would put that,

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Speaker 1: but I'm looking for something in six months, like that's

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Speaker 1: the start date when I will be targeting getting back

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Speaker 1: in again. If you have skills that are useful and

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Speaker 1: in demand, like, it's not going to be that hard

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Speaker 1: to find a job in six months. It's not like

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Speaker 1: you took years and years and years out and your

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Speaker 1: skills are rusty or anything like that. So you could

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Speaker 1: experiment with this and if you love it and think

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Speaker 1: it's awesome, then that's great. You know, we fully support

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Speaker 1: you in that, But you may discover that, yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: I enjoy spending time with the kids, and I enjoy working,

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Speaker 1: and the upside of being a working parent is that

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Speaker 1: you get to do both.

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Speaker 2: There you go, This is sort of a twofold question.

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Speaker 2: As you were speaking, I was listening and also rereading

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Speaker 2: it again because she's asking what do we think and

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Speaker 2: you gave your answer, and then also kind of what

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Speaker 2: should she do? So I'll answer the first one first.

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Speaker 2: It like, literally, it just never crossed my mind that

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't work, which is interesting because my mother herself

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Speaker 2: didn't work for a lot of my young childhood years.

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Speaker 2: But I mean I wanted to go to med school,

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Speaker 2: and then I went to med school, and like it

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Speaker 2: was hard and a lot of work.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's a lot of training to then not

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Speaker 1: be using right. I mean, I know people do, but

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Speaker 1: I mean still it's a lot of training too. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: There was just never a moment where I was like, well,

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Speaker 2: my husband could be the bread winner. It's fine, Like

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Speaker 2: I'll just like hang out my stethoscope and be done.

434
00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:50,440
Speaker 2: I have a friend that did that at age forty two,

435
00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:52,840
Speaker 2: and she loves it, but it is not something I

436
00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:55,199
Speaker 2: ever seriously considered to the point where when she did it,

437
00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:57,800
Speaker 2: I was like, so, like my mom is so blown

438
00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:02,840
Speaker 2: by that concept. I personally don't think I would have

439
00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:05,719
Speaker 2: enjoyed like I didn't wish for, like being home with

440
00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:09,359
Speaker 2: my young kids. And I know, like that may sound bad,

441
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:13,000
Speaker 2: but like the idea of being home with them all day,

442
00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:15,359
Speaker 2: day after day when they were little, like and maybe

443
00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:17,439
Speaker 2: not putting them in school because money would have been tighter,

444
00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:21,159
Speaker 2: that would have been not like my favorite period of life.

445
00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:24,920
Speaker 2: And I felt good about the experiences that they had

446
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:26,880
Speaker 2: during that time, so I felt like we both won

447
00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:29,640
Speaker 2: by me going to work doing good things at work

448
00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:33,280
Speaker 2: and them having school and another caregiver, and then me

449
00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:35,280
Speaker 2: being there the rest of the time. I will say,

450
00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:38,760
Speaker 2: now that I have more flexibility, I really do like it.

451
00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:41,879
Speaker 2: So I mean, if I could have had what I

452
00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:44,280
Speaker 2: have now from day one, that would have been amazing.

453
00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:47,439
Speaker 2: But you know, sometimes you can't have everything immediately, so

454
00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:50,120
Speaker 2: I think things just worked out the way they had

455
00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:50,680
Speaker 2: to work out.

456
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:51,800
Speaker 1: Now.

457
00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:55,320
Speaker 2: With respect to you, I like Laura's experiment idea. I

458
00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:58,360
Speaker 2: also think it's totally fine to stay home if that's

459
00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:00,240
Speaker 2: what you want. I just want you to ask yourself,

460
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,480
Speaker 2: like is it for you, and just to make sure

461
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:05,520
Speaker 2: it's not because you're trying to protect your kids from

462
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:07,679
Speaker 2: some kind of harm that may come to them in

463
00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:12,080
Speaker 2: childcare or out of shame or familial opinions. But if

464
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:14,200
Speaker 2: it's truly what you want and not those other things,

465
00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:16,479
Speaker 2: and you feel like you'd be super sad to miss it,

466
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,400
Speaker 2: and the family can handle it financially speaking, I mean

467
00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:22,040
Speaker 2: I fully support you in doing that. And sometimes I

468
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:24,840
Speaker 2: think people who listen to this podcast might not think

469
00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:26,960
Speaker 2: that we would support that, but I mean, of course

470
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:28,720
Speaker 2: we do. Women should do what they want to do,

471
00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:32,400
Speaker 2: and if that includes staying home if that's feasible, then like.

472
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:37,000
Speaker 1: Great, yep, choose what you want absolutely and.

473
00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:38,560
Speaker 2: I okay, I want to say one more thing, which

474
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,840
Speaker 2: is that, Okay, when we started this podcast, there were

475
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:44,160
Speaker 2: like nine million podcasts by stay at home moms talking

476
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:46,080
Speaker 2: about stay at home mom life, and so that that

477
00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:48,760
Speaker 2: has not been our focus because we felt like we

478
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,000
Speaker 2: needed to talk about the alternative. And so that's why

479
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:53,439
Speaker 2: we're usually empowering women who choose to do both like

480
00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:57,240
Speaker 2: we have, and not because we think it's bad to

481
00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:58,359
Speaker 2: make the other choice.

482
00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:03,119
Speaker 1: Absolutely all right, So next question, what do you do

483
00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:06,680
Speaker 1: to rewrite your narrative in a positive way? This person

484
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,200
Speaker 1: writes it's so easy for me to slip back into

485
00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:12,679
Speaker 1: the too much to do, never good enough feeling, because

486
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:16,080
Speaker 1: that's the meta story all around us. She's tried daily

487
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:18,919
Speaker 1: checkouts answering what did you accomplish today as one of

488
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:23,359
Speaker 1: the questions. She knows others do affirmations. She apparently read

489
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:25,399
Speaker 1: that cal Newport kept a note on his desk with

490
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:28,320
Speaker 1: how many pages he had written that day. I wonder

491
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:30,720
Speaker 1: if you know of any other rituals or routines or

492
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:31,920
Speaker 1: habits or things like that.

493
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:35,880
Speaker 2: This is such an interesting question because I never thought

494
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:39,960
Speaker 2: of my planner as a narrative writing tool, but I

495
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:42,919
Speaker 2: do think that is in part what it serves for me.

496
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:45,160
Speaker 2: Like I set up in the beginning of the day

497
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:46,680
Speaker 2: the things I want to do and what the schedule

498
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:49,159
Speaker 2: is going to look like, and I enjoy checking them

499
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:50,960
Speaker 2: off throughout the day and looking like, look, I did that,

500
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:52,560
Speaker 2: and I did that, and like, of course I don't

501
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:54,000
Speaker 2: always do all of them, but even if I do

502
00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:56,439
Speaker 2: some of them, like I can feel good about it.

503
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:58,720
Speaker 2: So I do think my planner kind of serves this

504
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 2: purpose for me, and I do record gratitude and I

505
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:03,280
Speaker 2: just have to share. Like Cameron was like flipping through

506
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:05,880
Speaker 2: my my planner and he was like, that's so cool

507
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 2: that you do gratitude. And I was like, that's so

508
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 2: cool that you think it's cool. Like I just thought

509
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:10,960
Speaker 2: that was so sweet and nice.

510
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 1: Yeah. You know, one thing I do is I sometimes

511
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:18,000
Speaker 1: print up nice emails that I've gotten from people, you know,

512
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:21,200
Speaker 1: about something I have written or said that was maybe

513
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,160
Speaker 1: meaningful to them. And if I'm having a rough day,

514
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,159
Speaker 1: it helps to look back on somebody then saying that

515
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:28,399
Speaker 1: whatever else I've done in the past has been helpful

516
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:30,720
Speaker 1: to them. Right, That's a way to kind of get

517
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:34,760
Speaker 1: out of the mindset of not doing enough. And you know,

518
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,199
Speaker 1: think back like in your life, like look through your

519
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 1: old photos, look at all the cool things you've done

520
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:41,680
Speaker 1: at various points in your life. That can kind of

521
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:43,640
Speaker 1: get you out of the mindset of oh, nothing good

522
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 1: is happening. It's like, well, except look at all these

523
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 1: other things that are good that have happened in my life.

524
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:51,440
Speaker 1: I think that can help with rewriting this story. And

525
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 1: again I'm going to put in a plug for time tracking.

526
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:56,440
Speaker 1: I know I sound like a broken record with this,

527
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 1: but I find that many people who are quite hard

528
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 1: on the themselves actually have a revelatory experience with tracking

529
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 1: their time that they discover life isn't terrible right, like

530
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:10,440
Speaker 1: that they are doing things like they may be sleeping

531
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:13,000
Speaker 1: about enough amount that they should be sleeping, Like they

532
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 1: may be exercising four times a week like wooh winning.

533
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,880
Speaker 1: Like you may be working long hours, but you're probably

534
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 1: also spending a lot of time with your family. And

535
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:24,520
Speaker 1: so a time log helps you see that whatever narrative

536
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:28,119
Speaker 1: you are telling yourself, maybe it's true, but maybe it's not,

537
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 1: or maybe it's not the whole truth. I mean, you

538
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:31,680
Speaker 1: can say like, well, I have no free time whatsoever,

539
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:33,639
Speaker 1: and what you really mean is I don't have as

540
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:35,239
Speaker 1: much time as I want. Or you know, you might

541
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 1: think like I never read. Well you look at your

542
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 1: time log and you read like four hours this week. Well,

543
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:41,920
Speaker 1: maybe you want to read more, but four hours is

544
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:43,680
Speaker 1: a lot. So this is more of the question of like, well,

545
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:45,879
Speaker 1: I'm reading thirty minutes a day and I'd like to

546
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:47,920
Speaker 1: read an hour. How can I go from thirty minutes

547
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:51,440
Speaker 1: to an hour? And it switches from this existential angst

548
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 1: to something that is an actual practical matter. So just

549
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 1: throwing that out there as an idea, just as a

550
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 1: way to rewrite our stories in general. I like it

551
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:02,199
Speaker 1: all right.

552
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 2: The next question is a little challenging, would you like

553
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:05,120
Speaker 2: to read it? Well?

554
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 1: I don't think it's so much challenging to I mean,

555
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:09,479
Speaker 1: sometimes I think people pose this to us thinking that

556
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,159
Speaker 1: it's like a gotcha kind of question or a stumping question.

557
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 1: But she says, how do you have the best of

558
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 1: both worlds on a low income budget? This person doesn't

559
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,359
Speaker 1: really really have. She says, family close or you know,

560
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 1: her friends are overwhelmed with their own families. And so,

561
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 1: you know, what I read into this is someone is

562
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:30,359
Speaker 1: just feeling really challenged in life right now that maybe

563
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:32,360
Speaker 1: work is really hard, maybe the kids are going through

564
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:37,440
Speaker 1: some difficult issues, resources are tight, and obviously, yes, that's

565
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 1: going to be a tough time and a tough situation,

566
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:44,199
Speaker 1: and so we really sympathize with that and wouldn't be

567
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,400
Speaker 1: cavalier about it at all. But there probably are still

568
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 1: ways to improve life and how you feel about it,

569
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,200
Speaker 1: no matter where you are starting from. So, Sarah, you

570
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 1: had some questions that people could ask themselves in these situations.

571
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:00,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, first of all, what best of both

572
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 2: worlds mean to you? I mean, We're not suggesting best

573
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 2: of both worlds as a certain type of dwelling or

574
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,399
Speaker 2: car or things like that. Best of both worlds for

575
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:13,639
Speaker 2: one person might be different than for another person. So

576
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 2: I do think that like reflecting on what you even

577
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:17,880
Speaker 2: mean by this question and what you think that concept

578
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 2: would mean for you in your circumstances might be useful.

579
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,400
Speaker 2: I will say connection and family is a big part

580
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 2: of what I see making people happy in general, providing support,

581
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 2: building community. I mean, I think about people I work

582
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,920
Speaker 2: with potentially that might have lower incomes, but a lot

583
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,159
Speaker 2: of times I will say it is like family support

584
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:44,399
Speaker 2: that makes them more able to move through life in

585
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 2: a less harried manner because they kind of have backup.

586
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:50,199
Speaker 2: And that's really really hard because you mentioned that you

587
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 2: didn't specifically have that. But maybe this is about perhaps

588
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:58,239
Speaker 2: like building community with others even if everybody's overwhelmed, I mean,

589
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 2: maybe even if especially if they're overwhelmed, then building that

590
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 2: network might be even more important because like you can

591
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 2: have each other's backs essentially. I also feel like you

592
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:12,439
Speaker 2: mentioned low income, and of course there may be like

593
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 2: factors that I don't know, like an illness or you know,

594
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,439
Speaker 2: some specific you're caring for a child, like there's no

595
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 2: way you can do anything else. I don't know your specifics,

596
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 2: but sometimes that is a changeable variable. And we don't

597
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 2: always like to talk about money, women especially, but sometimes

598
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 2: there are things you can do to change your earning potential.

599
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 2: They may take a lot of time, they may take

600
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 2: a lot of work. But one of the medical assistants

601
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 2: that I work with, who I love, who moved over

602
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 2: from another country probably a decade ago. You know, she's

603
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 2: been working as a medical assistant, which is not a

604
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 2: high incomposition. She's been amazing and over the course of

605
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 2: that time, she has a child. By the way, she

606
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 2: went to night school and now she got accepted to

607
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 2: med school and she's starting and so she's going to

608
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 2: be on a path to not being in the low

609
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 2: income category. And I'm not in any way saying like

610
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 2: everyone could do that or this is easy, but you know,

611
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 2: it doesn't mean that just if you're in one place

612
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 2: financially that you're locked into that forever. So if that

613
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 2: you feel like is making things tough, and it does

614
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 2: make things tough. I mean we know that, like below

615
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 2: a certain level of financial security, life is really hard

616
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 2: and stressful. But and I'm not saying you wouldn't have

617
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 2: thought of this already, but just like think outside the box,

618
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 2: maybe a little bit about whether changing paths could be

619
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 2: a possible longer term option. It's not something that's going

620
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 2: to get fixed overnight, but over the course of a

621
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 2: decade a lot can happen.

622
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 1: I think for many people building the best of both

623
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 1: worlds where they feel like they can do their best

624
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 1: job at work and have a happy home, life does

625
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 1: involve support in some form or another, and the question

626
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 1: is how you create that community of support around you.

627
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 1: Some people have it by virtue of having a close knit, helpful,

628
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 1: nearby family that is you. You should celebrate that fact.

629
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 1: I know a number of our listeners have actually moved

630
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 1: moved closer to family members. If they have the sort

631
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 1: of job that can be done in different places or

632
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 1: skills that are transferable to different employers. You know, they

633
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 1: look for an employer that is near extended family precisely

634
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 1: for the reason that maybe they can't afford elaborate aftercare arrangements.

635
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 1: But the kids can always go home and go to

636
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 1: your sister's house after school, or Grandma can pick the

637
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 1: kids up from an activity. If you are still at

638
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 1: work or various things like that, So that makes it

639
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 1: you know, it's very hard to get that level of support,

640
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 1: even with a lot of money. You know, I think

641
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 1: Sarah and I have talked about this a lot, that

642
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 1: creating that level of support is very expensive. Now, obviously

643
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 1: some people do pay for it. So if you don't

644
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 1: have lots of family members close by who are able

645
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 1: and willing to help out, then yeah, one option is

646
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 1: paying to create that support around you, whether through other caregivers,

647
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 1: through help with your house, or various other things. And

648
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 1: then finally, people can create support through close friend relationships.

649
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 1: So I know we've talked to people like who are

650
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 1: single parents who band together with another set of two

651
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 1: or three single parents who all try to trade off

652
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 1: some level of support for each other. So you know,

653
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 1: your friend will take your kids on Saturday so you

654
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 1: can do some of the things that you didn't get

655
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 1: to during the week, and then you host the play

656
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 1: date on Sunday so they can get to those things

657
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 1: during the week. Or maybe your friend works early hours,

658
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 1: so her kid comes over to your house in the

659
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 1: early mornings that you get them to school, but you

660
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 1: work after five o'clock and so the kids go to

661
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 1: her house after school, And there's just ways you can

662
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 1: create some of that same support with a network of

663
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:45,479
Speaker 1: close friends that might be worth looking into, because if

664
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:46,960
Speaker 1: you don't have the family who can do that, the

665
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 1: family comes to you sort of more automatically. And if

666
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 1: you don't have the income to buy that level of support,

667
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 1: then maybe you can create it over time by investing

668
00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 1: in close community relationships with other people who need support

669
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 1: as well. So that's just a way to think about

670
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:04,959
Speaker 1: what might be available to you.

671
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 2: Awesome, all right, Next question, how do you make decisions

672
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 2: about schools, camps and activities for young kids? What factors

673
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 2: play into your decision making and how would it be

674
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 2: different if you didn't have to think about sibling schedules.

675
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 1: I think the first thing to recognize on things like

676
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 1: camps and activities is that this is a pretty low

677
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 1: stakes question. I mean, so you don't necessarily have to

678
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 1: have an elaborate rubric of what you are looking for

679
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 1: in a three year old's activity.

680
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 2: Right.

681
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 1: It could just be our neighbor is doing this and

682
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 1: they like it, let's try it out, right, Or this

683
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 1: other family at preschool is singing the praises of this

684
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 1: gymnastics center. So there's a class at a time that

685
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 1: works for us, we'll go with it. Or they also

686
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 1: liked this camp, why not try it out for a

687
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 1: week or two something like that. You know, you can

688
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 1: also just observe your kids. It's like a child who's

689
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 1: constantly putting on shows for you just might be interested

690
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,960
Speaker 1: in theater or singing or dance. Someone who is climbing

691
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 1: all over the place might be into ninja classes, gymnastics classes.

692
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 1: And then just sort of having a supportive mindset as

693
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 1: the kids get older, if they mention something that they

694
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 1: would like to try, letting them try it out, whether

695
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 1: for a week as a summer camp or maybe as

696
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 1: a semester long activity, or just a short stint of

697
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 1: something that they might you know, three saturdays in a row,

698
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 1: you could do X, Y or Z. But just allowing

699
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:37,959
Speaker 1: children to experiment and figure out what they like means that,

700
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 1: you know, you'll eventually get to a place where the

701
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 1: kids are doing things they more or less enjoy. Yeah.

702
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 2: I feel like I have similar I just talk to

703
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 2: neighbors and friends. If I hear about someone raving about

704
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 2: how great some program is, I'm like, give me all

705
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 2: the details. Because then I can see if one of

706
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 2: my kids is interested trial and error, just let them

707
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 2: try whatever and see what sticks. I do value logistics

708
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 2: a lot, like if I can at two kids in

709
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 2: a class at the same time, like I'm here for that,

710
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 2: that's so so so nice, And I will say I

711
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 2: don't feel like I do other than what I just said,

712
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 2: if it does work out. I don't really limit that

713
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 2: much based on sibling schedules because I do have another

714
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:20,040
Speaker 2: driver available, although that can still not be enough driver

715
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:21,360
Speaker 2: sometimes with three kids.

716
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 1: But for the most part.

717
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,880
Speaker 2: I actually don't have to worry too too much about that.

718
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,360
Speaker 2: I do love having everybody on the same school calendar.

719
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 2: That's like a big priority to me.

720
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:34,040
Speaker 1: So yeah, the schooling decision is a little bit bigger.

721
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:38,760
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess for us, the default has always

722
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 1: been our local public school. But of course, you know,

723
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:43,800
Speaker 1: we bought in the district we did because it was

724
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:47,279
Speaker 1: known for having good local public schools and so that

725
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 1: might be worth doing a little bit more research into.

726
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 1: But even preschool. I mean, we chose our preschool because

727
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 1: it was very close to our house, and some friends

728
00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 1: were sending their kids there and were happy with it,

729
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 1: and so my husband went in visited and thought it

730
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 1: looked fine, and now we've sent five children there. Because

731
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 1: once you find something you like, you may as well

732
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 1: stick with it. So shout out for the preschool around

733
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 1: the corner that has wound up being a part of

734
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:14,760
Speaker 1: our lives for boy twelve years plus. Now time really

735
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 1: does add up, all right. So this next question, the

736
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 1: person writes you mentioned outsourcing housework and cleaning in favor

737
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,360
Speaker 1: of paid work. So this person says, I feel like

738
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 1: it diminishes the work involved in caring for your home

739
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 1: and those who find it fulfilling. So is there at

740
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 1: least one task you each continue to do, not because

741
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,840
Speaker 1: you can't afford to outsource it, but because you find

742
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 1: it rewarding. So, Sarah, what was your takeaway from this question?

743
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:49,240
Speaker 2: My first takeaway is really just about who this question

744
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 2: is for. And I know our podcast is focused on

745
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:55,839
Speaker 2: women who are choosing to work and maybe therefore having

746
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:58,319
Speaker 2: less time for this stuff, so we talk about outsourcing.

747
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 2: But at the same time, I feel like men have

748
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 2: traditionally outsourced this work to their female partners for a

749
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,359
Speaker 2: long long time, and they don't get asked about whether

750
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 2: it devalues that work or there's like a little bit

751
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:15,760
Speaker 2: of a shaming that I'm reading into in this question,

752
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:19,719
Speaker 2: like God, like you're you're not doing this work, and

753
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 2: I don't know, Like.

754
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think any law partner you'd be like, okay,

755
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 1: male law partner, you are outsourcing all the cooking and

756
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:32,319
Speaker 1: cleaning to your wife. Don't you feel that devalues it

757
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 1: by the fact that you're not doing it. Shouldn't you

758
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 1: be holding on to some of it as a way

759
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:38,879
Speaker 1: to show that it's valuable. I don't know. I guess

760
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 1: that's how one might read that question. So there's a

761
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,400
Speaker 1: little bit of an edge to it, right, Yes.

762
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 2: And then in terms of my actual answer, I mean

763
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 2: many things I do because you can't and should not

764
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 2: outsource everything I like. In terms of actual tasks I like.

765
00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 2: I like cooking on Sundays, I like emptying the dish.

766
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:03,480
Speaker 2: I like driving my kids around. I just can't drive

767
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:05,839
Speaker 2: them in two directions at the same time, so I

768
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,799
Speaker 2: need to get some help with that. I feel like

769
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,320
Speaker 2: a lot of times I will outsource on more physical

770
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:14,279
Speaker 2: tasks to make time for the human centered task. Again,

771
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 2: not because it means the physical tasks are not important,

772
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 2: but because I can't do both that. If I have

773
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:21,960
Speaker 2: to choose, I'd rather do the ones that directly impact people,

774
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,960
Speaker 2: whether that's at work or at home. And so I

775
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 2: guess i'd say, I think it's totally valuable and great

776
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:30,840
Speaker 2: to do that stuff, but that has been the default

777
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 2: path for women for many years, and we're trying on

778
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 2: this podcast to like offer that other options. So I

779
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 2: guess that's why we talk about it in this way

780
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:39,320
Speaker 2: pretty frequently.

781
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:44,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and I would say that there's something

782
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,720
Speaker 1: kind of missed in the framing of this question because

783
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 1: the nature of having a household of seven people is

784
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:53,439
Speaker 1: that there is always work to be done. So even

785
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 1: if you are outsourcing a lot, you still wind up

786
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,000
Speaker 1: doing some of it. You know, In one of the

787
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 1: phrases I use sometimes is that when you outsource, you're

788
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 1: still a resource. You can often get things down to

789
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:06,759
Speaker 1: maybe five to ten percent of what you would have

790
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 1: been doing, but you can't necessarily get rid of it entirely,

791
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:13,440
Speaker 1: and so you know, you're better off making your peace

792
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 1: with that situation. And so this framing of you know,

793
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 1: holding on to a task because you enjoy it, well,

794
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 1: you can enjoy it but still not want to do

795
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:24,840
Speaker 1: it all the time, seven days a week for seven people.

796
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,399
Speaker 1: So for instance, I do empty the dishwasher on some days,

797
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:30,239
Speaker 1: even though I don't enjoy it, because I'm the one

798
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 1: who's there to do it. Other days somebody else does it,

799
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 1: but some days I do it because it's getting done

800
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,360
Speaker 1: seven times a week. I don't do all the laundry,

801
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:40,399
Speaker 1: but I wind up doing a load or two a week,

802
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 1: so it's not like I'm missing out on the laundry experience.

803
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:45,720
Speaker 1: I'm still getting some of it. I'm just not getting

804
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 1: all of it. I probably cook at least twice a week.

805
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:52,399
Speaker 1: I'm not cooking seven days a week because somebody else

806
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 1: might be on other nights, but I'm doing it some

807
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 1: The cleaners come once a week, but if there's a

808
00:38:57,120 --> 00:38:58,759
Speaker 1: mess in the kitchen at some of the other point,

809
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not missing out on the experience of

810
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 1: cleaning the kitchen just because I've hired someone to clean

811
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:06,200
Speaker 1: my kitchen once a week. So I guess the point

812
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:09,840
Speaker 1: here being like, you can find something rewarding, or you

813
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:12,799
Speaker 1: can even find it not rewarding, but there's a lot

814
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 1: of work to be done. So even if you're outsourcing,

815
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:17,640
Speaker 1: you're still doing some of it. It's just that then

816
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 1: you're not doing it for seven people, seven days a week,

817
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:23,359
Speaker 1: and that can be a real relief if you are

818
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 1: trying to do anything else in your life, whether that

819
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:28,960
Speaker 1: is paid work or even you know, spending more time

820
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 1: with your kids. Like there's something to be said for

821
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:35,440
Speaker 1: that as well, because often housework and time with kids

822
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 1: can be at odds, right that if you are busy

823
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,360
Speaker 1: cleaning your kitchen every single day, maybe that's time that

824
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:43,120
Speaker 1: a kid would have wanted to go play in the

825
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:45,920
Speaker 1: playroom with you. And if you can not clean the kitchen,

826
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:50,719
Speaker 1: that's time that has opened up. So we usually end

827
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 1: our episodes with a question, but since this has been

828
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:56,799
Speaker 1: an all mailbag episode, we obviously don't need to do

829
00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:00,279
Speaker 1: a second question segment of our show. Here, I will

830
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 1: go straight to the love of the week, and for

831
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 1: any new listeners, this is a segment we do every

832
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:07,399
Speaker 1: week and we do with our guests as well, where

833
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:10,400
Speaker 1: we share something that is positive that we are enjoying

834
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:13,319
Speaker 1: that we're into right now. So, Sarah, what do you

835
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:14,240
Speaker 1: have for us this week?

836
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:18,400
Speaker 2: So? I got some new wide leg jeans which I

837
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 2: am super excited about. I felt like I needed an

838
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 2: update I've been wearing the made Well Perfect vintage jeans

839
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:27,759
Speaker 2: for a long time, and they're not skinny jeans, but

840
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:30,400
Speaker 2: they're like skinny adjacent. And I just was like interested

841
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 2: to experiment with some other silhouettes to kind of get

842
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 2: an updated casual look, and so I got these from

843
00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:39,400
Speaker 2: air Ayr. They're the secret Sauce jeans. My stylist friend

844
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 2: and prior guest on this podcast, Lani and Lander, recommended them,

845
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:45,960
Speaker 2: so she was right. They're awesome.

846
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 1: I feel so cool in them.

847
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:49,240
Speaker 2: Welcome twenty twenty four new genes.

848
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 1: Yay. You know I never got into skinny jeans. I

849
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:54,839
Speaker 1: wore boot cuts in the nineties and then kept wearing

850
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 1: them even when you couldn't find them in stores. I'd

851
00:40:57,719 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 1: be ordering them somewhere and then now they're back in

852
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:01,759
Speaker 1: which is because then I can buy them in stores again,

853
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 1: So yay for that. But my love of the week

854
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:09,360
Speaker 1: is my new Eddie Bauer winter jacket. So I bought

855
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:13,719
Speaker 1: one about six years ago. That's long, so it's nice

856
00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:17,319
Speaker 1: and warm, and it was great, but I bought it

857
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:21,080
Speaker 1: on clearance. The size they had was extra small, and

858
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 1: I'm not necessarily an extra small person, and particularly in winter,

859
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 1: if you're wearing like a bulky sweater under your bulky coat.

860
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:32,240
Speaker 1: It was just feeling a little tight. So I decided

861
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:35,360
Speaker 1: it was time, after about six years, after a fifth child,

862
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 1: I could get a bigger coat that I could actually

863
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 1: button all the way. And so I bought one in

864
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 1: a larger size in white, and I really like it.

865
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:47,439
Speaker 1: It's also long, it has this nice fake fur hood thing,

866
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:50,920
Speaker 1: and so I feel very cozy, and I like that

867
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 1: it's a little bit brighter. I mean, maybe I'm gonna

868
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:55,680
Speaker 1: spill Strawbuk strawberry a sie lemonade on it at some

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00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 1: point and then it won't be white anymore, and I

870
00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 1: will regret my choice. But for now, while it is

871
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 1: still gold white, I am feeling happy about it.

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00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 2: Love It sounds super cute.

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00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:07,879
Speaker 1: I can't wait to see it. It does sound cute.

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00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 1: I'm able to send a picture or you'll see it

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00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 1: next time you come visit me in the winter. Well

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00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:15,160
Speaker 1: this has been best of both worlds. We've been doing

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00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 1: an all mailbag episode. Feel free to send us questions me.

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00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 1: I'm Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. You can also

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00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:25,720
Speaker 1: write Sarah dot heart dot Unger at gmail dot com.

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00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:28,400
Speaker 1: We welcome questions. We do one every week and do

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00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:31,879
Speaker 1: mailbag episodes every couple of weeks. We will be back

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00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:34,880
Speaker 1: next week with more on making work and life fit together.

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00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:39,759
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the

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00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:44,719
Speaker 2: shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram.

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00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 1: And you can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com.

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00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 1: This has been the best of both worlds podcast. Please

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00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:54,840
Speaker 1: join us next time for more on making work and

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00:42:54,960 --> 00:43:00,760
Speaker 1: life work together. Lit