1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:25,276 Speaker 1: Push him. I'm lydigen Kott. It's the evening of November first, 2 00:00:26,116 --> 00:00:30,836 Speaker 1: and today we had closing arguments. The prosecutor, Nicholas Rose, 3 00:00:31,396 --> 00:00:35,036 Speaker 1: started by saying that Sam Bankman Freed used customer funds, 4 00:00:35,836 --> 00:00:37,916 Speaker 1: that he knew it was wrong, and that he thought 5 00:00:37,956 --> 00:00:40,236 Speaker 1: he could get away with it because he was smart. 6 00:00:41,276 --> 00:00:44,316 Speaker 1: That ends with you, Rose told the members of the jury. 7 00:00:45,676 --> 00:00:49,956 Speaker 1: Mark Cohen, Sam Bankman Freed's defense attorney, also focused on 8 00:00:49,996 --> 00:00:54,716 Speaker 1: Sam's intent. He reminded the jury that quote good faith 9 00:00:55,436 --> 00:00:59,436 Speaker 1: is a complete defense against all the charges, and he 10 00:00:59,596 --> 00:01:03,196 Speaker 1: also cast out on the testimony of the cooperating witnesses 11 00:01:03,956 --> 00:01:06,436 Speaker 1: if they were all in a criminal conspiracy together. He 12 00:01:06,556 --> 00:01:09,556 Speaker 1: asked how come they all found out that Alanma was 13 00:01:09,636 --> 00:01:14,436 Speaker 1: using customer funds at different times in different ways. As 14 00:01:14,476 --> 00:01:17,516 Speaker 1: Cohen was finishing up, I noticed that for the first 15 00:01:17,556 --> 00:01:20,156 Speaker 1: time in a while, Sam Bankman Freed wasn't typing on 16 00:01:20,196 --> 00:01:23,516 Speaker 1: his laptop, and I could see his face. It looked 17 00:01:23,556 --> 00:01:26,756 Speaker 1: like he was looking behind him a little bit, maybe 18 00:01:26,836 --> 00:01:30,316 Speaker 1: towards his parents, and he was blinking rapidly like he 19 00:01:30,436 --> 00:01:33,556 Speaker 1: was crying. So now we're in the next phase of 20 00:01:33,556 --> 00:01:36,716 Speaker 1: the trial. A rebuttal from the prosecution, and then the 21 00:01:36,796 --> 00:01:39,156 Speaker 1: judge will instruct the jury and then the jury is 22 00:01:39,196 --> 00:01:42,476 Speaker 1: going to go off and begin deliberations. Though the rest 23 00:01:42,516 --> 00:01:46,156 Speaker 1: of the trial happens in public. For deliberations, the twelve 24 00:01:46,156 --> 00:01:48,276 Speaker 1: members of the jury will file into a back room 25 00:01:48,476 --> 00:01:51,756 Speaker 1: away from the reporters and even the judge. I wanted 26 00:01:51,756 --> 00:01:53,756 Speaker 1: to know more about what goes on in that room, 27 00:01:53,836 --> 00:01:56,236 Speaker 1: So a week or so ago I called up Ellan Leggett. 28 00:01:56,556 --> 00:01:58,916 Speaker 1: You might remember her from one of our first episodes. 29 00:01:59,476 --> 00:02:03,556 Speaker 1: She's a trial consultant and a psychologist, and she specializes 30 00:02:03,596 --> 00:02:07,316 Speaker 1: in helping lawyers select juries in cases. Ellen, welcome back 31 00:02:07,356 --> 00:02:07,796 Speaker 1: to the show. 32 00:02:08,676 --> 00:02:10,436 Speaker 2: Thank you well, Jake, glad to be here. 33 00:02:10,876 --> 00:02:14,036 Speaker 1: What I want to know about is what happens during 34 00:02:14,196 --> 00:02:18,956 Speaker 1: jury deliberations. So what I know is that the jury 35 00:02:19,236 --> 00:02:22,796 Speaker 1: leaves the courtroom and then I think they go to 36 00:02:23,076 --> 00:02:26,436 Speaker 1: another room and then what happens? What are they doing there? 37 00:02:27,396 --> 00:02:31,116 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's behind closed doors and no one gets to 38 00:02:31,196 --> 00:02:33,716 Speaker 2: really be a fly on the wall and there, although 39 00:02:33,756 --> 00:02:37,196 Speaker 2: we all wish we could be. My ability to see 40 00:02:37,196 --> 00:02:39,116 Speaker 2: what goes on in that room is because I've done 41 00:02:39,196 --> 00:02:43,796 Speaker 2: many many mock trials when seen jurors deliberate in mock settings. 42 00:02:44,036 --> 00:02:47,596 Speaker 2: And I've also talked to many jurors after they've deliberated, 43 00:02:47,836 --> 00:02:50,676 Speaker 2: and I've interviewed them extensively about what happened in the 44 00:02:50,716 --> 00:02:54,996 Speaker 2: jury room. So what do they do? Well, Interestingly, one 45 00:02:54,996 --> 00:02:58,596 Speaker 2: of the first things that they do is elect a 46 00:02:58,676 --> 00:03:04,756 Speaker 2: four person and the process for that is interesting because 47 00:03:05,316 --> 00:03:09,556 Speaker 2: there has been a bond developed during the time that 48 00:03:09,596 --> 00:03:13,276 Speaker 2: these jurors have all been sitting together and having lunch 49 00:03:13,316 --> 00:03:17,596 Speaker 2: together and taking breaks together. And someone has usually emerged 50 00:03:17,756 --> 00:03:20,196 Speaker 2: as the person to recommend where they go to lunch 51 00:03:20,236 --> 00:03:24,796 Speaker 2: that day or something, you know, but that person they 52 00:03:24,876 --> 00:03:28,116 Speaker 2: might turn to as someone that could be the jury 53 00:03:28,156 --> 00:03:32,236 Speaker 2: for person, and yet someone else may have really strong 54 00:03:32,276 --> 00:03:35,916 Speaker 2: opinions and want to insert themselves as a candidate. But 55 00:03:36,156 --> 00:03:40,116 Speaker 2: as they first get settled in, they are for the 56 00:03:40,156 --> 00:03:42,916 Speaker 2: first time able to talk freely with each other, and 57 00:03:42,996 --> 00:03:46,156 Speaker 2: there's kind of a breath of you know, taking a 58 00:03:46,196 --> 00:03:48,956 Speaker 2: deep breath and saying, wow, what have we been through here? 59 00:03:49,076 --> 00:03:50,596 Speaker 2: This has been something. 60 00:03:51,076 --> 00:03:53,236 Speaker 1: Because up until now they haven't been allowed to talk 61 00:03:53,276 --> 00:03:55,516 Speaker 1: about the case, not each other, not at all. 62 00:03:55,596 --> 00:03:59,836 Speaker 2: And many people ask do I think jurors really maintain 63 00:04:00,156 --> 00:04:04,476 Speaker 2: that distance? And I believe for the most part, jurors do, 64 00:04:05,276 --> 00:04:09,356 Speaker 2: especially in a high profile case like this. They don't 65 00:04:09,356 --> 00:04:12,476 Speaker 2: want to do anything that could create a mistrial or 66 00:04:12,636 --> 00:04:15,076 Speaker 2: upset the apple cart when there has been so much 67 00:04:15,116 --> 00:04:18,356 Speaker 2: publicity and so much time invested in this trial. 68 00:04:18,916 --> 00:04:22,836 Speaker 1: So they're in this room, they vote for a four person. 69 00:04:23,196 --> 00:04:26,916 Speaker 1: There's twelve of them, so what if it's a tie. 70 00:04:27,516 --> 00:04:29,796 Speaker 2: There's no rule for how they pick a four person, 71 00:04:30,356 --> 00:04:34,716 Speaker 2: and they sometimes will do a secret ballot and sometimes 72 00:04:34,796 --> 00:04:38,356 Speaker 2: just somebody volunteers. Often it's a person who may have 73 00:04:38,876 --> 00:04:42,436 Speaker 2: some expertise that everyone thinks, oh, you'll be the best 74 00:04:42,436 --> 00:04:45,436 Speaker 2: four person. You've been a juror five times before, or 75 00:04:45,476 --> 00:04:50,996 Speaker 2: you've had experience in banking or something that might yeah. Seen. 76 00:04:51,156 --> 00:04:53,556 Speaker 1: It's interesting you say that, because, yeah, on this jury 77 00:04:53,556 --> 00:04:56,516 Speaker 1: there's one person who has they used to work for 78 00:04:56,676 --> 00:05:00,356 Speaker 1: Solomon Brothers. He has some experience in finance. So do 79 00:05:00,396 --> 00:05:02,996 Speaker 1: you think there's no way to tell but he seems 80 00:05:03,036 --> 00:05:03,436 Speaker 1: like he could. 81 00:05:03,556 --> 00:05:07,476 Speaker 2: Yeah, it could be that jurors feel that they would 82 00:05:07,556 --> 00:05:11,396 Speaker 2: have more trust someone that seems like they've got some 83 00:05:11,476 --> 00:05:15,236 Speaker 2: industry experience or insight. So that could very well be 84 00:05:15,676 --> 00:05:18,236 Speaker 2: instead of the person who's picked. Where they go to 85 00:05:18,316 --> 00:05:19,316 Speaker 2: lunch every day. 86 00:05:21,396 --> 00:05:23,156 Speaker 1: And then what happens they have their for a person, 87 00:05:23,236 --> 00:05:26,036 Speaker 1: do they get all the transcripts? 88 00:05:26,476 --> 00:05:30,356 Speaker 2: There will be boxes of exhibits in the room, no doubt, 89 00:05:30,596 --> 00:05:35,036 Speaker 2: although electronic records are also available to them sometimes, but 90 00:05:35,476 --> 00:05:39,236 Speaker 2: they have the ability to ask for anything that they 91 00:05:39,316 --> 00:05:43,516 Speaker 2: want to see. But quite honestly, they will start by 92 00:05:43,876 --> 00:05:47,276 Speaker 2: generally reading the first question on the verdict form if 93 00:05:47,316 --> 00:05:49,916 Speaker 2: they're a good jury form, and they'll read the entire 94 00:05:50,036 --> 00:05:56,796 Speaker 2: verdict form again. And what often happens, even though we think, oh, 95 00:05:56,836 --> 00:06:00,316 Speaker 2: they're going to take their time, they often just take 96 00:06:01,076 --> 00:06:04,196 Speaker 2: a show of hands right away. How many people think 97 00:06:04,236 --> 00:06:07,676 Speaker 2: he's guilty? They do that in spite of the fact 98 00:06:07,716 --> 00:06:09,836 Speaker 2: that they know they've got to answer all these questions 99 00:06:10,196 --> 00:06:13,596 Speaker 2: on a verdict form. But they like often four persons 100 00:06:13,636 --> 00:06:16,036 Speaker 2: want to take the temperature of the room, and this 101 00:06:16,196 --> 00:06:18,756 Speaker 2: is the first time they will have an indication of 102 00:06:18,836 --> 00:06:22,396 Speaker 2: how the people they've been with for all these weeks 103 00:06:22,916 --> 00:06:28,356 Speaker 2: really thinks. So it's often a surprise when they do 104 00:06:28,556 --> 00:06:33,756 Speaker 2: their very first show of hands vote. Sometimes it's surprise 105 00:06:34,396 --> 00:06:39,196 Speaker 2: that people who perceive themselves to be friendly suddenly see 106 00:06:39,196 --> 00:06:42,236 Speaker 2: that they're on opposite sides of the case. And dynamics 107 00:06:42,276 --> 00:06:46,876 Speaker 2: within this group can change a lot, so I would 108 00:06:46,916 --> 00:06:48,476 Speaker 2: predict that one of the first things they will do 109 00:06:48,516 --> 00:06:50,956 Speaker 2: after they get a four person is probably take a 110 00:06:50,956 --> 00:06:53,636 Speaker 2: show of hands vote how many people think he's guilty. 111 00:06:54,436 --> 00:06:56,716 Speaker 1: If they all think he's guilty, are they done? 112 00:06:56,796 --> 00:07:01,076 Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, they think they might be, But no, they 113 00:07:01,196 --> 00:07:04,796 Speaker 2: have questions. There are seven counts here, so they will 114 00:07:04,836 --> 00:07:08,596 Speaker 2: need to go through each count and take a vote 115 00:07:08,596 --> 00:07:13,956 Speaker 2: and eat one, and a good foreman will make sure 116 00:07:13,996 --> 00:07:18,116 Speaker 2: that there is discussion about each one. And again I'm 117 00:07:18,156 --> 00:07:20,796 Speaker 2: thinking that because this is such a high profile case, 118 00:07:21,436 --> 00:07:25,516 Speaker 2: they will want to discuss, and the jury foreman will 119 00:07:25,556 --> 00:07:29,356 Speaker 2: want to have people discuss, so that even if they 120 00:07:29,716 --> 00:07:32,356 Speaker 2: were able to go through all seven questions right away 121 00:07:32,436 --> 00:07:35,556 Speaker 2: and take votes right away, if they didn't discuss anything, 122 00:07:35,676 --> 00:07:39,516 Speaker 2: I doubt they would feel good about their verdict because 123 00:07:39,556 --> 00:07:41,836 Speaker 2: in my experienced, jurors want to do the right thing, 124 00:07:42,796 --> 00:07:46,596 Speaker 2: especially on a case that's important. They're going to want 125 00:07:46,676 --> 00:07:50,156 Speaker 2: to have the perception that they have worked hard and 126 00:07:50,196 --> 00:07:52,876 Speaker 2: that they have done a good job judging. 127 00:07:52,956 --> 00:08:02,156 Speaker 1: Sam will be right back. We're back. I wanted to 128 00:08:02,196 --> 00:08:05,236 Speaker 1: talk to you about this jury specifically because now we 129 00:08:05,316 --> 00:08:08,236 Speaker 1: know some things about them. Nine of the twelve are women. 130 00:08:09,116 --> 00:08:11,476 Speaker 1: The oldest member of the jury is sixty nine and 131 00:08:11,516 --> 00:08:14,996 Speaker 1: the youngest is thirty three, and the average age is 132 00:08:15,076 --> 00:08:17,996 Speaker 1: about fifty one. What do you think about just that 133 00:08:18,076 --> 00:08:19,556 Speaker 1: basic demographic data. 134 00:08:20,196 --> 00:08:24,636 Speaker 2: I think that having the women is interesting because women 135 00:08:24,916 --> 00:08:31,956 Speaker 2: are often stereotypically the more sympathetic to defendants. You know, 136 00:08:31,996 --> 00:08:35,716 Speaker 2: that might have been something that the defense was trying 137 00:08:35,836 --> 00:08:41,236 Speaker 2: to play towards. Women may also have less interest generally 138 00:08:41,516 --> 00:08:45,276 Speaker 2: in this kind of investing, and maybe they were all 139 00:08:45,476 --> 00:08:49,836 Speaker 2: thinking that women will bring less baggage to this case, 140 00:08:49,956 --> 00:08:55,396 Speaker 2: which would explain why you know, a more majority of 141 00:08:55,436 --> 00:08:56,436 Speaker 2: the jurors are women. 142 00:08:57,516 --> 00:09:01,876 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting though, because after Caroline Allison testified, I 143 00:09:01,916 --> 00:09:04,756 Speaker 1: overheard a lot of reporters saying, wow, Sam Magmond, Fred 144 00:09:04,836 --> 00:09:07,036 Speaker 1: really reminds me of a bad boyfriend that I had. 145 00:09:09,396 --> 00:09:11,356 Speaker 1: I wonder, Yeah, it seems like it could play the 146 00:09:11,396 --> 00:09:12,956 Speaker 1: other way as well. Do you want to hear a 147 00:09:12,996 --> 00:09:15,436 Speaker 1: little bit about some of their jobs. Yeah, we have 148 00:09:15,836 --> 00:09:20,796 Speaker 1: a physician assistant who's pregnant. We have a nurse, a 149 00:09:20,836 --> 00:09:26,276 Speaker 1: social worker, someone who used to work in nonprofits, a 150 00:09:26,356 --> 00:09:31,076 Speaker 1: Metro North train conductor, a high school librarian, a corrections officer, 151 00:09:31,916 --> 00:09:37,476 Speaker 1: postal service employee, someone from Ukraine who did it at Bloomberg. 152 00:09:38,356 --> 00:09:42,956 Speaker 1: A special education teacher and the retired investment banker. 153 00:09:44,756 --> 00:09:48,156 Speaker 2: Very interesting. So a lot of people in the medical 154 00:09:48,196 --> 00:09:52,316 Speaker 2: and nonprofit area, which again is kind of I actually 155 00:09:52,356 --> 00:09:55,916 Speaker 2: would have predicted that because they are so far removed 156 00:09:55,996 --> 00:09:59,396 Speaker 2: from the type of content that this case is about. 157 00:09:59,916 --> 00:10:04,156 Speaker 2: The postal worker and the metro train operator. Those are 158 00:10:04,196 --> 00:10:09,556 Speaker 2: pretty typical folks on juris in criminal cases because they 159 00:10:09,596 --> 00:10:12,396 Speaker 2: get to serve on long juries and get paid for 160 00:10:12,436 --> 00:10:13,516 Speaker 2: their jury service. 161 00:10:13,876 --> 00:10:15,196 Speaker 1: Those people and retired. 162 00:10:14,876 --> 00:10:18,676 Speaker 2: People and retired people, Yeah, exactly. A special ed person 163 00:10:18,796 --> 00:10:22,956 Speaker 2: is kind of interesting because certainly there have been many 164 00:10:23,036 --> 00:10:27,756 Speaker 2: characterizations of Sam bankmin Freed as being somewhat off center 165 00:10:28,116 --> 00:10:34,756 Speaker 2: in his style, whether it's emotionally, cognitively, interpersonally. So a 166 00:10:34,836 --> 00:10:37,796 Speaker 2: special ed teacher may have a broader range of accepted 167 00:10:37,836 --> 00:10:43,036 Speaker 2: behaviors and could be someone who would bring that to 168 00:10:43,116 --> 00:10:47,116 Speaker 2: the jury in a way that could be helpful to him. 169 00:10:47,956 --> 00:10:52,036 Speaker 1: I'm curious, as someone who has, you know, experienced with 170 00:10:52,076 --> 00:10:54,796 Speaker 1: lots of different trials, do you have any sort of 171 00:10:54,996 --> 00:10:58,076 Speaker 1: guess for how long we deliberations might last. 172 00:10:59,116 --> 00:11:02,436 Speaker 2: I've played this through a couple of different ways. I 173 00:11:02,476 --> 00:11:04,796 Speaker 2: think that as I've said, I don't think they will 174 00:11:04,836 --> 00:11:08,916 Speaker 2: want to be forming a quick verdict and rendering it. 175 00:11:09,116 --> 00:11:11,356 Speaker 2: There are seven counts. They will do a good job. 176 00:11:11,476 --> 00:11:14,076 Speaker 2: They will take I think the better part of a 177 00:11:14,196 --> 00:11:14,956 Speaker 2: day or two. 178 00:11:15,476 --> 00:11:18,276 Speaker 1: The other thing I was wondering about is this case 179 00:11:18,316 --> 00:11:21,076 Speaker 1: has a lot of different layers to it, right. It 180 00:11:21,156 --> 00:11:24,756 Speaker 1: has a technical layer to it where we've talked a 181 00:11:24,756 --> 00:11:29,676 Speaker 1: lot about, you know, how exactly trading works, where different 182 00:11:29,716 --> 00:11:32,116 Speaker 1: money was and how it was held. And then it 183 00:11:32,116 --> 00:11:35,636 Speaker 1: also has an interpersonal aspect to it about Sam Magmnfreed's 184 00:11:35,676 --> 00:11:38,476 Speaker 1: relationship with his friends who worked at the company with 185 00:11:38,516 --> 00:11:40,716 Speaker 1: his ex girlfriend. I mean, I know this is a 186 00:11:40,716 --> 00:11:43,596 Speaker 1: hard question, but what do you think is most important 187 00:11:43,636 --> 00:11:44,956 Speaker 1: to the jurors or what do you think that they're 188 00:11:44,956 --> 00:11:48,516 Speaker 1: thinking about when they're in the in the jury room. 189 00:11:49,356 --> 00:11:52,356 Speaker 2: I think they're trying to determine who told the truth, 190 00:11:53,636 --> 00:11:58,196 Speaker 2: and therefore the relationships that all these people had with 191 00:11:59,036 --> 00:12:05,676 Speaker 2: Sam megmun Freed becomes very relevant and their testimony is significant. 192 00:12:05,956 --> 00:12:10,556 Speaker 2: So I think they're thinking, given these folks that knew 193 00:12:10,636 --> 00:12:14,756 Speaker 2: him well, that knew him not just in this professional 194 00:12:14,836 --> 00:12:19,276 Speaker 2: role but also in college in high school, what were 195 00:12:19,316 --> 00:12:23,996 Speaker 2: their relationships and how believable was their testimony. I think 196 00:12:24,036 --> 00:12:27,716 Speaker 2: they will be thinking a lot about intent, and that's 197 00:12:27,716 --> 00:12:32,956 Speaker 2: a psychological variable. Really, it's not a technical one to 198 00:12:33,116 --> 00:12:37,476 Speaker 2: determine intent. They're talking about what did he say, what 199 00:12:37,596 --> 00:12:42,516 Speaker 2: did he do, who did he intend to harm, if anyone? 200 00:12:43,236 --> 00:12:47,796 Speaker 2: And that's really trying to get inside his psychology, not 201 00:12:47,916 --> 00:12:49,516 Speaker 2: inside the technology here. 202 00:12:50,596 --> 00:12:52,836 Speaker 1: And what impact do you think it'll have that he 203 00:12:52,916 --> 00:12:56,276 Speaker 1: actually took the stand, which is really rare in criminal cases. 204 00:12:56,196 --> 00:13:04,756 Speaker 2: Very rare, and yet someone who is as oblivious to 205 00:13:05,956 --> 00:13:11,636 Speaker 2: truth as he is, it lives on making a judgment there. 206 00:13:11,996 --> 00:13:15,916 Speaker 2: But that's really how it has come across. Even Carolin 207 00:13:15,956 --> 00:13:20,596 Speaker 2: Allison had said he seemed to have very little attachment 208 00:13:20,676 --> 00:13:23,956 Speaker 2: to the mores that most people have and that she 209 00:13:24,196 --> 00:13:28,076 Speaker 2: learned how to lie better by being in that environment. 210 00:13:28,196 --> 00:13:29,116 Speaker 2: It was a culture. 211 00:13:29,836 --> 00:13:33,356 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're saying that the fact that this idea 212 00:13:33,396 --> 00:13:36,076 Speaker 1: has been kind of seated by the prosecution that he's 213 00:13:36,076 --> 00:13:39,556 Speaker 1: not the most trustworthy person, is going to make the 214 00:13:39,556 --> 00:13:42,316 Speaker 1: fact that he took the stand maybe not make that 215 00:13:42,436 --> 00:13:44,756 Speaker 1: much of a difference to the jury when they're deliberating. 216 00:13:45,356 --> 00:13:47,396 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that it will be definitely it will 217 00:13:47,436 --> 00:13:50,916 Speaker 2: be talked about, and I know Michael had said he 218 00:13:51,036 --> 00:13:55,396 Speaker 2: predicted jurors would feel different about him after they've heard 219 00:13:55,476 --> 00:13:58,956 Speaker 2: him talk. That may very well be true. But will 220 00:13:58,996 --> 00:14:03,436 Speaker 2: they feel different enough to overcome what appears to have 221 00:14:03,556 --> 00:14:10,796 Speaker 2: been a very strong prosecution case with very convincing insider witnesses. 222 00:14:11,636 --> 00:14:13,716 Speaker 1: And what happens if the jury isn't able to reach 223 00:14:13,716 --> 00:14:14,236 Speaker 1: a decision. 224 00:14:15,396 --> 00:14:20,596 Speaker 2: That is what everyone worries about, that the jury cannot 225 00:14:20,836 --> 00:14:26,556 Speaker 2: be unanimous. Actually, who worries about that most the prosecution, 226 00:14:27,076 --> 00:14:31,756 Speaker 2: because if the jury is not unanimous, Sam Megmanfried is 227 00:14:31,876 --> 00:14:37,236 Speaker 2: not convicted, and that is a win for the defense. 228 00:14:38,156 --> 00:14:43,396 Speaker 2: If they're not unanimous, one question that is interesting to 229 00:14:43,436 --> 00:14:45,636 Speaker 2: think about is what do they do and what are 230 00:14:45,676 --> 00:14:50,196 Speaker 2: the signs that they may not be unanimous? And I've 231 00:14:50,236 --> 00:14:54,236 Speaker 2: said that they could take a day, if not longer, 232 00:14:54,396 --> 00:14:58,836 Speaker 2: even if they are unanimous, because they're going through everything 233 00:14:58,956 --> 00:15:00,996 Speaker 2: that they can. This is a case where they could 234 00:15:01,036 --> 00:15:03,756 Speaker 2: be competed if they were to be on opposite sides. 235 00:15:03,796 --> 00:15:07,556 Speaker 2: I think because there is so much at stake for 236 00:15:07,716 --> 00:15:12,396 Speaker 2: him as a defendant. There's so much loss that was 237 00:15:12,836 --> 00:15:15,836 Speaker 2: suffered by so many people. There are so many high 238 00:15:15,916 --> 00:15:19,756 Speaker 2: profile individuals in the world that were taken in by 239 00:15:19,836 --> 00:15:25,796 Speaker 2: him that I think all of that could create passion 240 00:15:25,876 --> 00:15:29,356 Speaker 2: on both sides if there were a division of opinion. 241 00:15:30,316 --> 00:15:33,116 Speaker 2: How they work it out. Often they may send out 242 00:15:33,196 --> 00:15:36,636 Speaker 2: questions to the judge that they may want to see 243 00:15:36,716 --> 00:15:41,996 Speaker 2: video deposition played again. They could also be wanting to 244 00:15:42,596 --> 00:15:47,276 Speaker 2: see exhibits that maybe they can't find. They can ask 245 00:15:47,396 --> 00:15:52,236 Speaker 2: specific questions about interpretation of instructions and the law. And 246 00:15:52,476 --> 00:15:56,396 Speaker 2: whenever they send out a question, the judge will call 247 00:15:56,636 --> 00:16:01,796 Speaker 2: the lawyers into the courtroom and they will have a 248 00:16:02,036 --> 00:16:05,996 Speaker 2: conference about what the jury question is. They will discuss it, 249 00:16:06,596 --> 00:16:09,196 Speaker 2: how they should handle it, how they should answer it, 250 00:16:09,516 --> 00:16:13,356 Speaker 2: and the judge will decide how to answer it, and 251 00:16:13,396 --> 00:16:16,116 Speaker 2: they will send an answer back in. But because they 252 00:16:16,156 --> 00:16:18,756 Speaker 2: have different charges, they have to reach a verdict on 253 00:16:18,876 --> 00:16:24,916 Speaker 2: each question. And they may be unanimous on question one, 254 00:16:25,276 --> 00:16:29,636 Speaker 2: but then question two they're not unanimous, and they keep discussing, 255 00:16:29,676 --> 00:16:31,996 Speaker 2: and they may say, you know what, let's skip this 256 00:16:32,076 --> 00:16:35,156 Speaker 2: one and let's go to the next one. And they 257 00:16:35,196 --> 00:16:39,476 Speaker 2: will make their way through the questions and then sort 258 00:16:39,516 --> 00:16:42,076 Speaker 2: of see where it all nets out and go back 259 00:16:42,116 --> 00:16:44,716 Speaker 2: to the ones that they maybe weren't unanimous on at 260 00:16:44,756 --> 00:16:45,236 Speaker 2: the beginning. 261 00:16:46,436 --> 00:16:53,236 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a minute with one last thing. Okay, 262 00:16:53,516 --> 00:16:56,756 Speaker 1: we're back Ellen. I was told that there is this 263 00:16:56,996 --> 00:17:00,596 Speaker 1: belief that when the jurors come back from deliberations, if 264 00:17:00,596 --> 00:17:02,756 Speaker 1: they look at the judge, that means that they're going 265 00:17:02,796 --> 00:17:06,156 Speaker 1: to convict, and if they look at the defendant, that 266 00:17:06,276 --> 00:17:09,196 Speaker 1: means that they're going to acquit. Do you think they're 267 00:17:09,516 --> 00:17:10,316 Speaker 1: any truth to that. 268 00:17:11,476 --> 00:17:13,836 Speaker 2: I'm going to say no, I'm not a believer in 269 00:17:13,876 --> 00:17:16,596 Speaker 2: that urban myth. I'm actually not too much of a 270 00:17:16,636 --> 00:17:19,476 Speaker 2: believer that you can tell much from the jurors facial 271 00:17:19,556 --> 00:17:23,956 Speaker 2: expressions ever in court. And the reason for that, although 272 00:17:23,956 --> 00:17:26,796 Speaker 2: I love to watch the jurors in court like anyone else, 273 00:17:27,276 --> 00:17:30,316 Speaker 2: but jurors know that they're in a fishbowl and that 274 00:17:30,636 --> 00:17:36,596 Speaker 2: everyone is observing them, and they can deliberately put on 275 00:17:37,036 --> 00:17:41,356 Speaker 2: a neutral face and agree before they walk into the 276 00:17:41,396 --> 00:17:45,716 Speaker 2: courtroom let's not look at the defendant no matter what. 277 00:17:46,516 --> 00:17:51,316 Speaker 2: And they can have little packs like that that are 278 00:17:51,556 --> 00:17:55,196 Speaker 2: protecting them from the scrutiny that they feel they are under. 279 00:17:55,916 --> 00:17:58,876 Speaker 2: So I wouldn't put a lot of stock in where 280 00:17:58,916 --> 00:18:01,396 Speaker 2: they look when they walk out. And by the way, 281 00:18:01,436 --> 00:18:03,636 Speaker 2: I know there was one other thing I wanted to mention. 282 00:18:04,156 --> 00:18:07,076 Speaker 2: You had said at one point early on, you felt 283 00:18:07,116 --> 00:18:09,156 Speaker 2: like sitting in the courtroom was like sitting in a 284 00:18:09,276 --> 00:18:13,996 Speaker 2: church pew, very formal and so forth. And the jurors 285 00:18:14,076 --> 00:18:16,876 Speaker 2: don't think that they think that this is their living room. 286 00:18:17,796 --> 00:18:23,076 Speaker 2: They have been sitting in that courtroom for weeks and 287 00:18:23,476 --> 00:18:28,556 Speaker 2: they're very familiar. Jury Service imposes upon them rules that 288 00:18:28,596 --> 00:18:32,196 Speaker 2: are so different from their normal habits. They've been given 289 00:18:32,276 --> 00:18:36,916 Speaker 2: permission to take a vacation from our sabbatical from their job. 290 00:18:37,476 --> 00:18:41,476 Speaker 2: Jurors can sometimes find this experience to be very empowering, 291 00:18:42,036 --> 00:18:44,956 Speaker 2: and by having that time away from their normal lives, 292 00:18:45,356 --> 00:18:49,916 Speaker 2: it can change relationships with spouses, it can change relationships 293 00:18:49,956 --> 00:18:53,436 Speaker 2: with jobs. And I've also had jurors decide they want 294 00:18:53,516 --> 00:18:56,236 Speaker 2: to go to law school they've been so inspired by 295 00:18:56,276 --> 00:19:01,116 Speaker 2: the process. So yes, many of the relationships can endure 296 00:19:01,436 --> 00:19:05,476 Speaker 2: among the jurors. They may have a celebratory reunion after 297 00:19:06,516 --> 00:19:08,836 Speaker 2: being through the trial together. Not always. 298 00:19:09,196 --> 00:19:13,316 Speaker 1: Sometimes that's fascinating. So yeah, this trial has you know, 299 00:19:13,356 --> 00:19:16,156 Speaker 1: it of course have a huge impact on sam maankman 300 00:19:16,236 --> 00:19:19,116 Speaker 1: Fried's life, but also to some degree, it'll have a 301 00:19:19,196 --> 00:19:21,436 Speaker 1: huge impact on the lives of the twelve men and 302 00:19:21,476 --> 00:19:25,876 Speaker 1: women who are on the jury. Absolutely Ellan Leggett. Thank 303 00:19:25,916 --> 00:19:26,916 Speaker 1: you so much for your time. 304 00:19:27,196 --> 00:19:28,116 Speaker 2: You're very welcome. 305 00:19:31,516 --> 00:19:33,716 Speaker 3: We'll be back in your feed soon with more expert 306 00:19:33,756 --> 00:19:37,676 Speaker 3: analysis and news from Sam bankman Fried's trial. Thanks for listening. 307 00:19:39,916 --> 00:19:42,876 Speaker 3: This episode of Judging Sam was hosted by Lydia jan Kott. 308 00:19:44,156 --> 00:19:47,516 Speaker 3: Lydia Jancott is our court reporter. Katherine Girardeau and Nisha 309 00:19:47,596 --> 00:19:51,476 Speaker 3: Venken produced this show. Sophie Crane is our editor. Our 310 00:19:51,596 --> 00:19:54,916 Speaker 3: music was composed by Matthias Bossi and John Evans of 311 00:19:54,996 --> 00:19:59,396 Speaker 3: stell Wagon Symphonette. Judging Sam is a production of Pushkin Industries. 312 00:19:59,836 --> 00:20:02,316 Speaker 3: Got a question or comment for me, There's a website 313 00:20:02,316 --> 00:20:09,036 Speaker 3: for that atr podcast dot com. That's atr podcast dot com. 314 00:20:09,636 --> 00:20:12,716 Speaker 3: To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, 315 00:20:12,876 --> 00:20:17,076 Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. 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