Speaker 1: Welcome to The Hidden Gin, a production of I Heart
Speaker 1: Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Minkey. Hi, and
Speaker 1: welcome to this very special bonus series of The Hidden Gin.
Speaker 1: The interviews. In these episodes, you'll hear me talk to
Speaker 1: people from all walks of life who have had GIN experiences,
Speaker 1: are drawn to the stories of Gin, and draw lessons
Speaker 1: from these stories. You'll hear from artists, scholars, writers, journalists,
Speaker 1: and Gin exorcists, and even from me as I discuss
Speaker 1: how and why this series came about in a very
Speaker 1: personal conversation with my husband. Thanks for listening and enjoy.
Speaker 1: I am so excited for this conversation this week because
Speaker 1: I'm getting to have a really fun conversation with a
Speaker 1: good friend of mine, somebody I love and admire, um,
Speaker 1: and somebody who's kind of like a co conspirator in
Speaker 1: the true crime space, UM, and somebody I'm a fan of.
Speaker 1: Patrick Heinz Patrick Hynes. For those of you know who
Speaker 1: Patrick is. You probably discovered him on his incredibly popular
Speaker 1: podcast called True Crime Obsessed. But Patrick has been in
Speaker 1: the podcast business way longer than that. He was podcasting
Speaker 1: back in two thousand and thirteen, well before everybody else was.
Speaker 1: He was the founder of the Theater Podcast Productions, and
Speaker 1: he's also the creator, co producer and host of The
Speaker 1: Theater People Podcast, a very cool podcast featuring full length
Speaker 1: interviews of Tony Winners of Broadway Legends and today's brightest
Speaker 1: theater stars. Now, since then, Patrick has moved on into
Speaker 1: the true crime space, really just taking it over with
Speaker 1: True Crime Obsessed, his co host Jillian Pensylvali and his
Speaker 1: fairly new show called Obsessed with Disappeared Um, which I
Speaker 1: love both of them. I follow them religiously to my
Speaker 1: favorite shows. But we're not gonna be talking about true
Speaker 1: crime today. Well okay, maybe just a little bit. We
Speaker 1: will be talking about some some some intersections between true
Speaker 1: crime and the supernatural world. We're gonna be talking about
Speaker 1: the fact that Patrick, throughout his whole life, has experienced
Speaker 1: all kinds of really interesting, supernatural and unexplicable phenomenon. Every
Speaker 1: time he's talked about this online, I'm like just wrapped.
Speaker 1: And I was like, when I started this podcast, I said,
Speaker 1: you know what, I gotta talk to Patrick about all this,
Speaker 1: and I also got to tell them all about the
Speaker 1: gin because he knows nothing about them. So let's do
Speaker 1: this let's talk to maybe one of my favorite people
Speaker 1: in all of podcasting, Patrick Hines. Hi and welcome Patrick.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining me this week. Hi,
Speaker 1: my love, it's it's so good to be your face.
Speaker 1: Like I know, I was just gonna say that, I
Speaker 1: get to like sit in my little studio and actually
Speaker 1: I get to look at your glorious beauty. High you
Speaker 1: know what I gotta say, Listeners, I'm sorry you don't
Speaker 1: get to actually witness us. You're gonna get the audio,
Speaker 1: but we get to see each other and that's fun.
Speaker 1: And my hair is out of control right now. I
Speaker 1: don't know you should like hang up on me. I'm
Speaker 1: looking at my own hair in this thing, and like
Speaker 1: I have not, I truly not had a haircut. Personal hygiene,
Speaker 1: personal hygiene in the time of quarantine, personal grooming. It's
Speaker 1: all optional. My eyebrows are about to grow together. At
Speaker 1: least about the one eyebrow. You would have the most
Speaker 1: glorious unit one you would make it cheat, I would say,
Speaker 1: the face mask would really you know, like highlight it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's but thank you so much again. And I know
Speaker 1: here's the thing, this is the this is the fun
Speaker 1: thing for me. Because Patrick was like, how do I
Speaker 1: prepare for this? I was like, no, no, no, just
Speaker 1: come on, I'm gonna And the other thing is that Patrick,
Speaker 1: you know, I think nothing about this project and nothing
Speaker 1: with the subject. But there's a reason I wanted you on.
Speaker 1: So let me tell you a little bit about what's happening.
Speaker 1: And so you are going to be part of my
Speaker 1: Patreon series that goes along with the main Gin series
Speaker 1: that by the time this airs, has already been airing.
Speaker 1: Um so, do you have any idea what a GIN is? No?
Speaker 1: I think that you and I talked about this, maybe
Speaker 1: even a year ago. Um, when you were like, this
Speaker 1: was beginning to bubble in your brain. Is something you
Speaker 1: might want to do? I feel like it's the word
Speaker 1: folklore comes to mind. But that's as much. That's as
Speaker 1: far as I've got. Okay, So let me tell you
Speaker 1: a little bit about the world of jin. Of course
Speaker 1: you better be listened to my podcast by time. Are
Speaker 1: you kidding? Already pre subscribed? Awesome? Um? So basically, yeah,
Speaker 1: So the realm of Gin is there's tons of folklore
Speaker 1: and legend and stories and like the but it's actually
Speaker 1: much deeper than that because it's a tied to scripture.
Speaker 1: It's tied to Jewish picture even and it's even pre
Speaker 1: it's even pre Jewish Muslim Christian scripture, like the Jin
Speaker 1: are referred to like forty times in the Muslim scripture.
Speaker 1: Like that's how serious we take it, Like we're like, wow,
Speaker 1: these things are real, and it is a huge universe
Speaker 1: of them. I mean forget like any kind of like
Speaker 1: Marvel universe of characters. Like, it's a huge universe of jin.
Speaker 1: There's a million of them. Everybody has their personal one.
Speaker 1: Is what You've got one with you right now. It's
Speaker 1: gonna born and die with Yeah. Yeah, they're freaky um,
Speaker 1: and so there's Jewish demonology tied with it. Then it
Speaker 1: goes all the way back to antiquity like in Babylonia
Speaker 1: and Assyria and like they were worshiped at one time.
Speaker 1: It's freaking But the way that people who believe in
Speaker 1: the Gym think about them is that they're kind of
Speaker 1: responsible all this phenomenal. We can't figure out ghosts and
Speaker 1: crop circles and whatever. It's it's it's all we all
Speaker 1: just categorize it as, oh, it's a jin, it's a
Speaker 1: gin ff thing with us whatever. Oh, I love it.
Speaker 1: So when you told me you've had multiple like supernatural experiences,
Speaker 1: I'm like, in my head, I'm like, oh that's Jim
Speaker 1: Patrick has no idea. I give mess mugin. That's so interesting.
Speaker 1: I when you say that they're born with you and
Speaker 1: they die with you. I I've always felt that it's
Speaker 1: it's weird. It's like, you know, I felt like you
Speaker 1: have some presents or something. Yeah. Yeah, Like I think
Speaker 1: about the handful of like supernatural experiences I've had in
Speaker 1: my life are like probably number in like the eight
Speaker 1: to ten. You know that's good. That's a lot. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Well one is happening right now. Girl. I So we're
Speaker 1: at our office and we have this door that we
Speaker 1: like our office has a couple of different rooms in it,
Speaker 1: and there's this door that keeps opening by itself, and
Speaker 1: it's so it's just it's so freaky and like there's
Speaker 1: no it's just the door. It's not like a traditional
Speaker 1: door that you can like close and you hear it
Speaker 1: like lap but like you pull it close. It's kind
Speaker 1: of like a cheap, flimsy door. So maybe there's just
Speaker 1: something wrong with the door, but like you can hear
Speaker 1: it click shut, and then like when you're not looking,
Speaker 1: it just opens by itself. It's very freaky. Well, this
Speaker 1: is this this kind of like the latest phenomena. But I
Speaker 1: want to go I want to like take Patrick back
Speaker 1: to like a little Patrick. Yeah, I want to hear
Speaker 1: about Okay, first of all, were you raised in any
Speaker 1: kind of like a faith tradition or any kind of
Speaker 1: like any kind of tradition that actually would like you know,
Speaker 1: kind of accounts for some of your like ideas around
Speaker 1: these things. Um So, so my mom is a lesbian.
Speaker 1: I was raised in like the lesbian but my mom
Speaker 1: was like a very is a very staunch Christian, and
Speaker 1: she was a Catholic forever. Loved being Catholic. I was
Speaker 1: an ultra boy forever. I really enjoyed it as a
Speaker 1: young person, do I know. I like, I'm a very
Speaker 1: spiritual person. I totally believe in God, but like I'm
Speaker 1: not a religious person at all. And um but my
Speaker 1: mom was very I mean this is a little bit
Speaker 1: like lesbian nineties lesbian style. My mom was very into
Speaker 1: like crystals and energy and go, like, you know, any
Speaker 1: time I had any sort of experience, my mom totally
Speaker 1: believed me, you know, And I would always tell her
Speaker 1: about it. Yeah, yeah, and so like I mean, from
Speaker 1: the time that I was a little kid, I would
Speaker 1: I guess I would say, this sounds so corny, but
Speaker 1: like I would have weird little premonitions, nothing major, but
Speaker 1: I would sort of like a song, Like we'd be
Speaker 1: in the car and like we'd be listening to the
Speaker 1: radio and I'd be humming a song and it would
Speaker 1: be like the next song that would come on or whatever.
Speaker 1: But then I would start having like weird I know,
Speaker 1: I started having weird like not weird, but I started
Speaker 1: having like dreams and sort of like, um, I mean
Speaker 1: when I was in like middle school, high school, I
Speaker 1: would have like out of body experiences sometimes and it
Speaker 1: would be like it was it would be like when
Speaker 1: I would okay, let me ask this. Those out of
Speaker 1: bodies were those something that you like wanted to have
Speaker 1: and ord because look, I had a phase when I
Speaker 1: was younger. Ilse like I heard about this thing and
Speaker 1: I would try to make it happen. It didn't happen
Speaker 1: for me. Yeah, I know, so I I did not
Speaker 1: want it to happen. I wanted it to not happen.
Speaker 1: And I had a couple of bouts of sleep paralysis,
Speaker 1: which I don't know if you know about this, but
Speaker 1: like like there were there were a condful of times
Speaker 1: when I was like, you know, I would say probably
Speaker 1: fourteen or fifteen, where I always took naps in the
Speaker 1: afternoon because I would come home from school and then
Speaker 1: I would have like drama club at like six o'clock,
Speaker 1: so I would like take a nap in between. I
Speaker 1: know it's such a little theater gay um, but like
Speaker 1: I would that would be the time, like if I
Speaker 1: was to have an out of body experience, it would
Speaker 1: be then. And I remember one time experiencing this about
Speaker 1: of like sleep paralysis where I was awake but completely
Speaker 1: unable to move, and I saw things in my room,
Speaker 1: like I saw like there was a woman who was
Speaker 1: wearing like it looked like like almost like colonial garb,
Speaker 1: like floating in my room. And I don't know if
Speaker 1: it has to do with like puberty. I've read some
Speaker 1: stuff that like that that that like that there is
Speaker 1: something about that. But I remember talking to my mom
Speaker 1: about this stuff. At the time. I saw a ghost
Speaker 1: around the same time. It was not a scary experience,
Speaker 1: but like I shared a room with my brother and
Speaker 1: I remember waking up in the middle of the night
Speaker 1: and there was this woman dressed sort of as a
Speaker 1: nun that was sort of standing at the top of
Speaker 1: our stairs, um in the like in the like in
Speaker 1: the I don't know what you call that, like at
Speaker 1: the top of the stairs. And I could see it
Speaker 1: out of my bedroom. It wasn't scary. She came into
Speaker 1: the room and like said, I know. She came into
Speaker 1: the room and sat down on my brother's bed, and
Speaker 1: for some reason, I was not scared, and she sort
Speaker 1: of motioned for me to like lie back down, and
Speaker 1: I did, and she started like stroking my brother's hair.
Speaker 1: I know. But I remember talking to my mom about
Speaker 1: this stuff, and my mom was saying, She's like, I
Speaker 1: think that you're like a sensitive person like you you
Speaker 1: experienced these things that she was saying, if you want
Speaker 1: this to stop, you have to pray about it. You
Speaker 1: have to pray and ask the universe or whatever God
Speaker 1: you believe in to make it stop. And I did,
Speaker 1: and it did, you know, it did for the most part.
Speaker 1: I do think. I think um and and people do
Speaker 1: believe like the veil for some is thinner right because
Speaker 1: you are open to the possibility but you're also much
Speaker 1: more sensitive and receptive to everything that's happening around you,
Speaker 1: and you're willing to understand it in a certain way.
Speaker 1: It's like how some people can actually be hypnotized for
Speaker 1: real and some people dust cannot. We were just looking
Speaker 1: about this yesterday. Is hypnotis real? Is that? Is it real? Yeah? Yeah,
Speaker 1: it can. It can absolutely truly be used. I know
Speaker 1: it sounds so crazy, but people have been able to
Speaker 1: retrieve memories, real memories, actual like memories that I have,
Speaker 1: like corroborated memories, verified that they couldn't before. Or they've
Speaker 1: been able to remember even details like in criminal cases
Speaker 1: of crimes or something. But it doesn't work for everybody.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, obviously our brains one of these
Speaker 1: big old sponges. They see everything and hear stuff, and
Speaker 1: it's it's in there somewhere. We just can't read it right,
Speaker 1: because when you hear people under hypnosis and their voices
Speaker 1: sound different, it's so creepy. Yeah. Now, I've talked to
Speaker 1: people who have been hypnotized, and for for the for
Speaker 1: the people who worked like I've tried to get hypnotized
Speaker 1: because I was like I want to do this. It
Speaker 1: didn't work for me because I was just too hyper
Speaker 1: aware of you know, It's like it's like wanting it
Speaker 1: to happen, wanting it to work. Yeah, I can't relax
Speaker 1: in a bath because I'm like, you know, I'm sit
Speaker 1: there and I'm like too hyper aware of everything that's
Speaker 1: going on. My brain won't shut off. But I have
Speaker 1: talked to people who really did experience it for real
Speaker 1: and where it was able to help them act three um,
Speaker 1: like through some therapy scenarios and stuff. So okay, so
Speaker 1: I want to talk a lot. So you said it stopped,
Speaker 1: So then like, for what month of your filthhood you
Speaker 1: didn't experience it or what happened? I would say that
Speaker 1: I felt more in control of it, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean? Like I would say that like when I
Speaker 1: was a kid, especially around my puberty years, like between
Speaker 1: the ages of twelve to fifteen or sixteen, I feel
Speaker 1: like this stuff was happening all the time, and it
Speaker 1: felt like scary to me. And I kind of like
Speaker 1: your brother too, or your mother too, or anybody else
Speaker 1: in the family or just do do you know? That's
Speaker 1: such an interesting question. I I have never we've never
Speaker 1: talked about it. I would imagine that my mom, I
Speaker 1: don't know, I've never God, Robbie, I'm now having this
Speaker 1: realization of like, wow, a little bit self possessed, Arni
Speaker 1: Patricks that like, you love to share these stories, but
Speaker 1: you've never asked your own family if they've None of
Speaker 1: my family has ever come up and said like any
Speaker 1: like anything like this has ever happened to them, Because
Speaker 1: I feel like your mom's response is almost the kind
Speaker 1: of response that somebody would have if if they get it,
Speaker 1: like they're like, oh yeah, yeah, like I totally yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, my mom has always said that
Speaker 1: her mother, who I never I guess I met her
Speaker 1: when I was very very young, but I don't have
Speaker 1: any memories of her. But she lived in Manhattan, and
Speaker 1: I live in Manhattan. My mom's mom was like a
Speaker 1: New Yorker, like you know, like loved New York and
Speaker 1: the whole thing. My mom says that she feels like
Speaker 1: her mother is like with me. So when you said that,
Speaker 1: like they're born with you and they die with you
Speaker 1: like that, that sort of struck me. Like I feel
Speaker 1: like my my grandmother, who I've never met, I feel
Speaker 1: like she is with me sometimes, Like there are times
Speaker 1: that I I went to a medium once and had
Speaker 1: like a reading and she was like, yeah, her Ruth,
Speaker 1: like she said her name, and I was like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, it's true. And she's like you should talk
Speaker 1: to her, like you should talk to her because like
Speaker 1: that makes it stronger, you know, don't know. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: talked to her. She's probably in this room high room.
Speaker 1: Hey girl opening the door in the other room. Okay,
Speaker 1: So okay, the gosh well hopefully when I mean ruthe
Speaker 1: but but okay, so the Ruth might be with you,
Speaker 1: but there might be something else with you too. So
Speaker 1: the gym that's born with you and dies with you,
Speaker 1: that's like your own personal thing. But the ghost phenomena
Speaker 1: of people like lingering with us, that's also. God I've seen,
Speaker 1: I mean, I've seen people who have passed like in
Speaker 1: my dreams that are so real that I just know
Speaker 1: it's really I know they're actually talking to me. This
Speaker 1: is not like me making stuff. That's how it really is. Totally. Yes,
Speaker 1: I've said this recently. It was so funny. I was
Speaker 1: we were when when the COVID first happened, before any
Speaker 1: lockdowns or anything like that happened. My husband and my
Speaker 1: daughter and I left the city because we knew that
Speaker 1: they were gonna lock down Manhattan. We don't we live
Speaker 1: in eight square feet. We're like, we gotta get out
Speaker 1: of here. We don't have a yard, like our kids
Speaker 1: got to be able to play outside. So we left.
Speaker 1: We got a cabin in Massachusetts and I had I
Speaker 1: had a ghost sighting there and it was just super
Speaker 1: super boring ghost sighting. But I mentioned it that sounds
Speaker 1: really like that. It's not even possible. You can not
Speaker 1: have a super boring ghost sighting. Girl, This ghost was asleep.
Speaker 1: It was so it was like, I'll tell you the
Speaker 1: story in a second. But like I mentioned it on
Speaker 1: True Crime Obsessed and somebody heard it and this lady
Speaker 1: called me and asked me if she could interview me
Speaker 1: about it, and I thought it was just for a blog,
Speaker 1: and it ended up being for a story for the
Speaker 1: New York Times. So I have told this now and
Speaker 1: then I got a million interview request about it. I've
Speaker 1: told the story like ten million times in the last
Speaker 1: two months. But it was, um oh, I am very
Speaker 1: concerned that I missed that story. How did that happen? Okay, Oh,
Speaker 1: it's a fascinating story. It's all about people who are
Speaker 1: seeing like ghosts in quarantine and like is it real
Speaker 1: or are we all just like going crazy? Look that up. Okay,
Speaker 1: it's really interesting. I mean, like, this was the thing
Speaker 1: where I just woke up at like two in the
Speaker 1: morning and I went to get a glass of water,
Speaker 1: and as I was walking to like into the kitchen,
Speaker 1: I noticed that there was like a person sitting at
Speaker 1: the at the kitchen table, like an older man and
Speaker 1: like a like an old school military uniform. And in
Speaker 1: my brain it's sort of like made sense to me
Speaker 1: because it wasn't our house, and I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is like his house. And and then when I
Speaker 1: sort of realized what was happening, I looked over and
Speaker 1: I saw him and he had his head down on
Speaker 1: his chest. He looked like he was asleep, and then
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, he was just gone, Oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: what God. And Julian said, Jillian my coast said to me,
Speaker 1: go through the photo albums in the house and see
Speaker 1: if you can find anybody who looks like him. But
Speaker 1: I realized they have a whole family tree wall in
Speaker 1: their house, and I went and looked at it, and
Speaker 1: it goes all the way back, and I didn't really
Speaker 1: see the ghost face, so I don't know what he
Speaker 1: looks like. But I saw all these men from like
Speaker 1: the twenties that looked like in these military uniforms, which crazy.
Speaker 1: So I just have to know how the rest of
Speaker 1: that night played out. Did you just get your water
Speaker 1: and go back to bed, like, oh, well, I literally like, oh,
Speaker 1: I just saw a ghost and then I went and
Speaker 1: I almost didn't tell Steve, my husband, about it the
Speaker 1: next day. It was such a non occurrence that I
Speaker 1: almost didn't mention it. And I told him, And of
Speaker 1: course Steve doesn't believe in any of this stuff. It's like, no,
Speaker 1: Steve is the most like you know, you're born and
Speaker 1: then you're you know, yeah, you're born and you die.
Speaker 1: Guy out there, you just not believe in any of it.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. It's tough to live with someone because
Speaker 1: you know what, then the other person is like, oh,
Speaker 1: you're just like some crazy conspiracy theorist. But I'm glad
Speaker 1: you're making your marriage work despite this difference. But okay,
Speaker 1: but even before you went out to this, I feel
Speaker 1: like an old cabin in um in Matthews makes sense
Speaker 1: to me, like that's where like if you're gonna find
Speaker 1: like lingering spirits, that's gonna be there. But you've had
Speaker 1: experiences like in flipp in Manhattan, right like in your
Speaker 1: in your home. I'm trying to think about them, uh,
Speaker 1: experience with Daisy or something. Oh yes, in our Okay.
Speaker 1: So we've moved several times in the last couple of years.
Speaker 1: But our first apartment that we lived in with Daisy day,
Speaker 1: I never saw anything in this apartment but Daisy. We
Speaker 1: would hear Daisy as like a two year old talking
Speaker 1: to somebody, like literally, and then and then we and
Speaker 1: we would like here on the baby monitor, and then um,
Speaker 1: I'm trying one day, and then she started talking about
Speaker 1: the man. She started talking about the man in her room.
Speaker 1: So she would say, like, Daddy, the man woke me
Speaker 1: up this morning. And I would say, which man, the
Speaker 1: man that lives in my room? Daddy, the man that
Speaker 1: lives in my room? I know, I know, Okay, Okay.
Speaker 1: The debaby baby monitor have like was it a video monitor? No?
Speaker 1: And that was the thing that we we had debated
Speaker 1: getting and I was sort of like, I kind of
Speaker 1: can't handle the idea of like seeing her talking to
Speaker 1: like that would just scare the ship out of me.
Speaker 1: And I can't handle that. But you could hear her talking, yeah,
Speaker 1: so what do you do, Like George, don't really make
Speaker 1: like real like they don't make like, you know, real sentences.
Speaker 1: But she's responding, yeah, totally. And she would talk about
Speaker 1: the man, the man that lived in her room, and
Speaker 1: it was just like, oh my god. And you know
Speaker 1: she six now and like I don't remember anything from
Speaker 1: when I was two, she still talks about that apartment,
Speaker 1: in that room, like there was she had some sort
Speaker 1: of connection to it. Does she remember the man she
Speaker 1: talked to? I haven't asked her about that in a
Speaker 1: long time. I should ask her. I don't want to
Speaker 1: scare her because now she would understand better, but I
Speaker 1: should ask her about that. Well, what did she tell
Speaker 1: you about the man? What did she have to say
Speaker 1: about him? She would say, not a lot. I remember that,
Speaker 1: like she would he would be there like when the
Speaker 1: lights were off, like it was never when the lights
Speaker 1: were on, and we never, like you can't get like,
Speaker 1: Daisy is not one to Daisy is not a woman
Speaker 1: of many words as it is, so as soon as
Speaker 1: you she senses that you're trying to get information out
Speaker 1: of her, she just completely clams up. So yeah, it
Speaker 1: was it was always just more like, oh, the man
Speaker 1: woke me up this morning, and it was something. It
Speaker 1: wasn't like a thing that happened all the time. I
Speaker 1: remember she probably said that like once or twice, and
Speaker 1: it was like, oh my god, so did Steve. What
Speaker 1: does Steve think? She's just loot any dream? Like he
Speaker 1: just doesn't pay any attention to it. He's just like whatever,
Speaker 1: She's just she's just talking, you know. Well, so let
Speaker 1: me ask you this. If the nun didn't scare you,
Speaker 1: was there ever? I'm guessing the sleep paralysis was kind
Speaker 1: of frightening. That was terrifying. That was terrifying because I
Speaker 1: knew I was awake and I couldn't move Like that
Speaker 1: is positive you were awake. I mean, I guess I
Speaker 1: would say I remember it so vividly now and I
Speaker 1: remember in the moment, so it didn't right now, I'm
Speaker 1: awake and like I'm very awake, right, but like it
Speaker 1: didn't feel like this, But it definitely I never had
Speaker 1: words for it until very recently. I feel like sleep
Speaker 1: roalysis became a thing that people started talking about maybe
Speaker 1: five or six years ago. So before that, I just
Speaker 1: was like I was awake and I couldn't move. And
Speaker 1: it wasn't like I came out of it. It was
Speaker 1: like I kind of I guess I went back to
Speaker 1: sleep and then I woke up. It wasn't like I
Speaker 1: can't move, I can't move, I can't move it now
Speaker 1: I can't move. Um, it was I I can't move
Speaker 1: and that is terrifying. And there is a woman hovering
Speaker 1: in my room. And so I never knew about When
Speaker 1: I learned about sleep prosis and I learned I heard
Speaker 1: other people's stories about it, it was similar where it
Speaker 1: was like things that you would be having nightmares about,
Speaker 1: but they're actually like they look real and they're in
Speaker 1: your space. And I was like, I have that experience.
Speaker 1: I I that happened to me. We'll be right back
Speaker 1: after the short break. One of the one of the
Speaker 1: episodes I do talk about sleep paralysis and actually how
Speaker 1: common it is. And what's interesting is it's a phenomena
Speaker 1: that's like experienced in every culture and every point in history.
Speaker 1: It's been documented forever um and it's a it's very
Speaker 1: everybody's experiences are really similar. What what is actually the
Speaker 1: only usual difference is like kind of the cultural context.
Speaker 1: So people are seeing things that makes sense to them.
Speaker 1: So you might not see, for example, um, like a
Speaker 1: creature from Zimbabwe, right because it's that makes sense in
Speaker 1: your cultural right right there, you're gonna see, Yeah, you're
Speaker 1: gonna see what would what would make sense to you
Speaker 1: and scare you accordingly, Oh that's so interesting. Has that
Speaker 1: ever happened to you? It has not. Um, I feel
Speaker 1: like maybe I'm I don't know, maybe I need to
Speaker 1: like soften my edges or something like I want, I
Speaker 1: want to expect. I've had some experiences that are definitely
Speaker 1: I feel like they're supernatural. Now, Susan Simpson, who's my
Speaker 1: attorney in my colleague on Disclosed, is like somebody broke
Speaker 1: into your house and did X Y Z and you
Speaker 1: just never knew it. And I'm like, no, I don't
Speaker 1: think that was what happened. I would imagine that Susan
Speaker 1: Simpson is not a believer, And like, I feel like
Speaker 1: Susan Simpson and Steve are very similar. Probably yeah, they're
Speaker 1: very Yeah, you kind of if if I can see,
Speaker 1: if I can touch it, I can understand it. Whatever.
Speaker 1: But but I believe it's kind of like, you know,
Speaker 1: one of the things I say, like you said at
Speaker 1: the top of the show. You like at the top
Speaker 1: of the episode you said, you know, I believe in God.
Speaker 1: It's like if you believe in God, then it's like
Speaker 1: where are your lines? Like you can't kind of be
Speaker 1: like I believe in God, but I don't believe that
Speaker 1: X Like if you can believe in something that kind
Speaker 1: of fantastical, like why can't you leave in other things? Could?
Speaker 1: I know? And I love that, Like I love the
Speaker 1: freedom to think different things on different days, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, Like I think that like I definitely yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: Like I definitely believe in God. I want to believe
Speaker 1: that there's some sort of afterlife, but like do I
Speaker 1: believe in like heaven? That seems weird, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean? Like, oh that's interesting. Okay, that's a whole show.
Speaker 1: I know, I know, I know, because like if there's
Speaker 1: an afterlife but there's nowhere to go, what do you
Speaker 1: do just hang around? I know and think some people
Speaker 1: get stuck here and where you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: Like you would think that by now Like the other
Speaker 1: like the counter to it is that like if there
Speaker 1: was like a god in a heaven and like an afterlife.
Speaker 1: You would think they're somebody would have been able to
Speaker 1: prove it by now, don't you think. I mean only
Speaker 1: the dead can prove. I mean like how do you
Speaker 1: how do you don't know? I mean so okay, so
Speaker 1: for me the whole I mean, that's why it's called faith, right,
Speaker 1: Like you do you have to believe in something you can't,
Speaker 1: you have no way to bear FI. Although I'd say
Speaker 1: people who have had near life or near death experiences
Speaker 1: excuse me, um, almost always come back with like if
Speaker 1: they were not believers in something supernatural, they come back
Speaker 1: as because they have a very and they all have
Speaker 1: very similar of course, scientists are like, well that's your
Speaker 1: brain breaking down that tunnel of light and yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: look if that's what the afterlife is, and um, but
Speaker 1: it's hard for me to believe that outside of my
Speaker 1: physical body, that I don't exist in another way like yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's what's hard to And I'll tell you, like I've
Speaker 1: definitely experienced the I want to hear the auto body experiences. Hello,
Speaker 1: so you have experienced it. Yeah, It's it's hard to
Speaker 1: say because like I've never had the experience of like
Speaker 1: floating out my window and like over this like now
Speaker 1: I'm flying through the city. Like when you when I'm
Speaker 1: awake and I think about out of body experiences, that's
Speaker 1: kind of the the experience you want to have. And
Speaker 1: it was one of the things when I was younger.
Speaker 1: I would experience it when I was taking a nap.
Speaker 1: It was never like at night when I was going
Speaker 1: to sleep. You know, there was something about the taking
Speaker 1: of a night and it would either be when I
Speaker 1: was right when I was falling asleep or right when
Speaker 1: I was waking up. I mean, have you ever heard
Speaker 1: that experience when you're you're either trying to fall asleep
Speaker 1: or you're just about to wake up, and you feel
Speaker 1: like you're falling in like you kind of get that
Speaker 1: sensation of following that's never happened to you, never happened
Speaker 1: to me. I have a I have my weird in
Speaker 1: that twilight whatever I call it, like twilight between sleep
Speaker 1: and awake experiences. I always hear a door slam um,
Speaker 1: and it's terrifying because I don't know if it's real
Speaker 1: or not real, if somebody's somebody's outside, like you know,
Speaker 1: that's my That's what I I've never had the falling experience,
Speaker 1: but that's what interesting. So I've felt that, But I've
Speaker 1: also had the experience of being asleep or being almost
Speaker 1: asleep and starting to feel that separation. People are gonna
Speaker 1: think I'm crazy, but starting to feel that separation of
Speaker 1: like coming out of my body. And I remember when
Speaker 1: I was younger really fighting it, being like, uh, like
Speaker 1: it's so scary and you don't wanted to happen. And
Speaker 1: oh recently, I would say, this happened to me while
Speaker 1: I was living in my current apartment. We've been there
Speaker 1: for about two years. I remember having the experience of
Speaker 1: being like, okay, like let this happen, like let's see
Speaker 1: what happens. Yeah, and sort of feeling that sort of
Speaker 1: like coming out of my body and sort of I
Speaker 1: expected it to feel like, Okay, now I'm floating around
Speaker 1: my apartment and it wasn't that. It was much more
Speaker 1: of like a blackness, just sort of like a like
Speaker 1: a like a different like turn around and look at
Speaker 1: your body, see or you know. I've never had that
Speaker 1: experience that would be fucking terrifying to me, Like I
Speaker 1: I would not enjoy that. This was more feeling that
Speaker 1: sort of separation, feeling like I was out of my
Speaker 1: body but not but not being able to see anything,
Speaker 1: just sort of like a black haze of like you know,
Speaker 1: sort of atmosphere. That's but but it was a really
Speaker 1: like a sensation head But did you fall did you
Speaker 1: fall asleep after that or did you wake up? Yes? No,
Speaker 1: I fell asleep after that today. I mean there are
Speaker 1: lots there are lots of stories about people who report
Speaker 1: like being in surgery or having something procedure. I was
Speaker 1: going to ask you about this, Yeah, and then they
Speaker 1: say they want they could see that, and and the
Speaker 1: things that they report seeing the doctors like, well, they
Speaker 1: couldn't have known that because they were Like so there
Speaker 1: was one doctor I was reading about who actually put
Speaker 1: markers on the like somewhere on the gurney or whatever
Speaker 1: they were on that you would not be able to
Speaker 1: see just by like lying there, so that you would
Speaker 1: have to have like you would have like to say,
Speaker 1: like oh, like the letter R is written on like
Speaker 1: the wherever, and like the only way you could know
Speaker 1: that would be like if you actually came out of
Speaker 1: your body and side like that makes totally like being
Speaker 1: in surgery. That makes total sense. To me, you know that,
Speaker 1: like you would have that sort of well you know,
Speaker 1: I mean to me, Okay, maybe it's not scientific evidence,
Speaker 1: but there it's evidence I feel like of something like
Speaker 1: how how would somebody how had you explained somebody being
Speaker 1: able to do that unless there's a consciousness that is
Speaker 1: separate from the actual physical body. But anyway, after this,
Speaker 1: basically nobody's gonna believe anything I do or say, So
Speaker 1: I understand what they say with me, say with me.
Speaker 1: I know, I know, I know. Let me ask you this. So,
Speaker 1: you you mentioned that you went to a medium, and
Speaker 1: I've heard you bring up mediums a number of times
Speaker 1: in UM two Crib Obsess and also Obsessed with Disappeared,
Speaker 1: because you know, I listened to both those shows. I
Speaker 1: can't believe you listen to both of these shows. Oh
Speaker 1: my god, you guys like you don't understand how many
Speaker 1: dark Knights you've gotten me through. And some times I
Speaker 1: love you guys. So and I've heard you bring up
Speaker 1: me because I love it, because you kind of dangle
Speaker 1: it out there because you want your like co host
Speaker 1: to be like totally jump on and be like yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, but but then you cut it back off. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: the whole thing. Like my my issue with like psychics.
Speaker 1: I totally believe in psychics, but like I feel like
Speaker 1: they always come out of the woodwork when there's like
Speaker 1: like a like a known like when there's some sort
Speaker 1: of like high profile case or whatever, and I feel
Speaker 1: like it always leads to like a dive team of
Speaker 1: twelve people dredging a lake and it costs the town
Speaker 1: eight million dollars and it's a wee resources. But I
Speaker 1: went to see um. I went to see a medium
Speaker 1: who was a friend of our friend Laura Bricker when
Speaker 1: I went to like yeah, yeah, yeah, I can't think
Speaker 1: of Susan. Susan Gorman I think is her name. And
Speaker 1: I went to see her and we had this really
Speaker 1: cool session like it was. It was I got a
Speaker 1: lot out of it. And she was one that like
Speaker 1: knew my grandmother's name. It was weird. Wow, But had
Speaker 1: you it wasn't the only time you've ever gone to
Speaker 1: a medium? I think? So, I think it was. I
Speaker 1: mean it's the kind of thing I would go all
Speaker 1: the time, you know, it's just never think to do it. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like I don't get time for the manicure pedicure,
Speaker 1: but you know, you know you want to get I'm
Speaker 1: always fascinated when I hear stories about law enforcement themselves
Speaker 1: reaching out to mediums. I'm like, that's a bold move
Speaker 1: and you're realized putting yourself out there for some criticism
Speaker 1: to be able to do. And I'm like, I want
Speaker 1: to hear a story of like a case being solved
Speaker 1: by a medium. Like if if law enforcement is reaching
Speaker 1: out that often, there must be cases out there where
Speaker 1: they've really helped. Well, there there's a new podcast. I know. Look,
Speaker 1: inter section, the intersection between true crime and the supernatural?
Speaker 1: Is this getting more and more clear here? Um? Totally? So?
Speaker 1: Well do you, um, have you had a truly other
Speaker 1: than the out of body experience? Have you had a
Speaker 1: truly terrifying experience with what you think might be like
Speaker 1: a malevolent spirit or something. No, I've never had that.
Speaker 1: Let me think for just a second. No, I mean
Speaker 1: there was so there when I where I was when
Speaker 1: I was growing up. I grew up in this like
Speaker 1: subdivision on Cape Cod and we had a pond. Uh,
Speaker 1: there was like woods behind my house and then there
Speaker 1: was a pond and there was a man who died
Speaker 1: by suicide on one of the trees down there when
Speaker 1: I was growing up, he took his own life. He
Speaker 1: hanged himself, and for years, I mean for decades, the
Speaker 1: rope was still there, and I know, I mean it's
Speaker 1: just the rope that was tied around the like, yeah,
Speaker 1: like for some reason, like when they took down the body,
Speaker 1: like they just didn't like cut the rope all the way.
Speaker 1: And there was always I don't know, there was something
Speaker 1: about that area where I knew that man had died
Speaker 1: and it was a place that I was at all
Speaker 1: the time, you know, um that there was something about
Speaker 1: that that area that felt scary to me. I mean,
Speaker 1: obviously a person had died there, so maybe that was
Speaker 1: just it and I was a kid, um, But I've
Speaker 1: never had like, I know, I've never had like I
Speaker 1: really like terrifying you know, like devil encounter or anything
Speaker 1: like that. Have you? Uh No, But my husband was
Speaker 1: convinced when I started like researching and scripting for this show.
Speaker 1: He's like, we are totally a hundred be possessed now,
Speaker 1: Like so far, other than like items being moved mysteriously,
Speaker 1: nothing has happened. So I guess we're okay. I use
Speaker 1: somebody who I use somebody who loves like horror and Halloween,
Speaker 1: and I do. I like horror movies. I will say that, like,
Speaker 1: since I became the father of a little girl, it's
Speaker 1: sort of changed the way that I watched pop culture
Speaker 1: or stuff, because I feel like I didn't for some reason.
Speaker 1: I'm just a bad feminist and I didn't realize that,
Speaker 1: like the way women are treated and abused in these
Speaker 1: like for entertainment in these films is just like unwatchable
Speaker 1: to me now. Um So that's something that's become more
Speaker 1: clear to me, Like since I've been a dad, which
Speaker 1: is stupid. You shouldn't need to have a daughter to
Speaker 1: like recognize that women aren't being treated very well. Um
Speaker 1: but I do like horror movies. I do like things
Speaker 1: that scare me, but I get very scared, Like I
Speaker 1: get very don't like jump out of the closet scenes.
Speaker 1: Do you believe in the Devil? No? Really? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I was just thinking about that because I was thinking
Speaker 1: about how like I don't believe in possession. I don't
Speaker 1: think that's a real thing. Any thing is happening there,
Speaker 1: like mental illness her. Yeah, I mean, like all of
Speaker 1: the possession stuff I've seen. I'm sorry, Catholics, forgive me.
Speaker 1: I was one of you once. It feels very much
Speaker 1: like an opportunity for like priests to hit women like
Speaker 1: you always see these women like tied to chairs or
Speaker 1: women tied to beds and just horribly abused, like you know,
Speaker 1: watch a documentary like there's one. Um, there's a documentary
Speaker 1: that we covered a couple of years ago called The
Speaker 1: Devil and Father a mort Um and it was about
Speaker 1: this possession of this woman in Italy and it was
Speaker 1: they abused this woman. I mean, crazy story. I hated
Speaker 1: watching it and so I don't know. I don't I
Speaker 1: don't think I do believe in the devil. Now you
Speaker 1: made me saying it out loud, Robi, what's gonna happen
Speaker 1: to me? Now? It's okay, Ruth will protect you. Yeah, alright, Well,
Speaker 1: I don't want to take up any more of your time.
Speaker 1: But also this is a really fun conversation and I've
Speaker 1: been thinking about it. I've been thinking about this for
Speaker 1: a while because every time you something up and I
Speaker 1: love that whenever you like post about it or tweet
Speaker 1: about or anything, like, all your listeners are like totally
Speaker 1: they're lined up with you man, they have your they
Speaker 1: have your back. I know we have the most like
Speaker 1: loyal listeners. Oh my god. I love that they'll follow
Speaker 1: you anywhere, including into the general and Patrick, I know,
Speaker 1: I can't wait. You guys were recording this like long
Speaker 1: before your podcast is out. I cannot wait to hear it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I can't wait for you to hear it too. It's
Speaker 1: gonna be a lot of fun and thank you again.
Speaker 1: I can't wait for our listeners to hear this conversation because, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you're just a good dear friend. And I think both
Speaker 1: of us, both of us kind of like a very
Speaker 1: sensitive these kinds of things. I know, like for me,
Speaker 1: like I can't go to places like Alcatraz. I can't
Speaker 1: go to places where I know people have suffered because
Speaker 1: I can't. It just had my whole I can feel
Speaker 1: that I feel too much pain in it. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: went to Alcatraz and I actually loved my trip to Alcatraz.
Speaker 1: Really it was weird. The reason I wanted to go
Speaker 1: to Alcatraz is because Matthew Shepard. Do you remember that
Speaker 1: Matthew sheff You know, the gay kid in Wyoming that
Speaker 1: was tied to the fence and beaten to death in
Speaker 1: nineteen of the eight The only really well known pictures
Speaker 1: of him had been taken of him at Alcatraz like
Speaker 1: the year before he was murdered. And so I wanted
Speaker 1: to go and find the places at Alcatraz where he
Speaker 1: had been, and that was I wanted to feel his energy.
Speaker 1: That was kind of why I wanted to go there.
Speaker 1: But he was, I mean, and I found there's a
Speaker 1: these like set of stairs where he had like taken
Speaker 1: some photos and it was kind of like a it
Speaker 1: was a crazy moment to sort of be there and
Speaker 1: be like he stood right here, Like that was crazy. Um,
Speaker 1: But Alcatraz is I'm kind of the opposite. Not that
Speaker 1: I want to go and like revel in a place
Speaker 1: where people have suffered, but I love the idea of
Speaker 1: being in a place where you know something has happened
Speaker 1: and sort of trying to like feel that energy. Like
Speaker 1: I I kind of like I'm drawn to that. Now.
Speaker 1: I completely understand like the the flip side of that,
Speaker 1: because like I really want to visit, Like Ashwitz, I
Speaker 1: really want to visit, I mean, because I want to
Speaker 1: bear witness to the atrocities. Um, I just don't wanna
Speaker 1: it's when it feels like touristy that it's hard for me.
Speaker 1: I think, thank you again, and uh, if you know,
Speaker 1: keep us updated. I want to hear about all your
Speaker 1: gen stories. Keep a look at and if you can
Speaker 1: get a videotape of that door opening and closing in
Speaker 1: your office, I have to see it. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: I totally well, it's terrifying awesome, all right, girl, I
Speaker 1: love you. Thank you for having me. I love you too,
Speaker 1: and thank you for coming on. If you want to
Speaker 1: follow Patrick more because now you love him the way
Speaker 1: I love him, you can follow him online. You can
Speaker 1: find him on Twitter and Facebook. His handle on Twitter
Speaker 1: is at Patrick Kinds. Both of his shows that I
Speaker 1: am just completely obsessed with are called true Crime Obsessed
Speaker 1: and Obsessed with Disappeared hilarious true crime comedies, which I
Speaker 1: know it sounds like it can't happen, but believe me,
Speaker 1: they do it. They do it beautifully, tastefully, and it
Speaker 1: will just leave you rolling. Find them both on your
Speaker 1: favorite podcast apps, subscribe and don't forget to leave them
Speaker 1: some love on iTunes. Thanks for listening. We'll be back
Speaker 1: soon with more gin stories. I hope you enjoyed that
Speaker 1: conversation as much as I did. Now, there are as
Speaker 1: many people in the world with jin stories as there
Speaker 1: are jin, so if you have one you'd like to share,
Speaker 1: make sure to email it to me at the Hidden
Speaker 1: Gin at gmail dot com. That's the Hidden Gin. Th
Speaker 1: H E H I D d N d J I
Speaker 1: n N at gmail dot com. And until next time,
Speaker 1: remember we are not alone. The Hidden Gin is a
Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio and Grimm and Mild from
Speaker 1: Aaron Mankey. The podcast is written and hosted by Robbia
Speaker 1: Chaudry and produced by Miranda Hawkins and Trevor Young, with
Speaker 1: executive producers Aaron Mankey, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. Our
Speaker 1: theme song was created by Patrick Quartetz. For more podcasts
Speaker 1: from I heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.