1 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to The Hidden Gin, a production of I Heart 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Minkey. Hi, and 3 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: welcome to this very special bonus series of The Hidden Gin. 4 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:38,159 Speaker 1: The interviews. In these episodes, you'll hear me talk to 5 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:41,479 Speaker 1: people from all walks of life who have had GIN experiences, 6 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 1: are drawn to the stories of Gin, and draw lessons 7 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:49,480 Speaker 1: from these stories. You'll hear from artists, scholars, writers, journalists, 8 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 1: and Gin exorcists, and even from me as I discuss 9 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 1: how and why this series came about in a very 10 00:00:55,840 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: personal conversation with my husband. Thanks for listening and enjoy. 11 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: I am so excited for this conversation this week because 12 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: I'm getting to have a really fun conversation with a 13 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:11,479 Speaker 1: good friend of mine, somebody I love and admire, um, 14 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 1: and somebody who's kind of like a co conspirator in 15 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: the true crime space, UM, and somebody I'm a fan of. 16 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:19,680 Speaker 1: Patrick Heinz Patrick Hynes. For those of you know who 17 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 1: Patrick is. You probably discovered him on his incredibly popular 18 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 1: podcast called True Crime Obsessed. But Patrick has been in 19 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:31,040 Speaker 1: the podcast business way longer than that. He was podcasting 20 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: back in two thousand and thirteen, well before everybody else was. 21 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,759 Speaker 1: He was the founder of the Theater Podcast Productions, and 22 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 1: he's also the creator, co producer and host of The 23 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:43,680 Speaker 1: Theater People Podcast, a very cool podcast featuring full length 24 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: interviews of Tony Winners of Broadway Legends and today's brightest 25 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 1: theater stars. Now, since then, Patrick has moved on into 26 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 1: the true crime space, really just taking it over with 27 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: True Crime Obsessed, his co host Jillian Pensylvali and his 28 00:01:56,160 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: fairly new show called Obsessed with Disappeared Um, which I 29 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: love both of them. I follow them religiously to my 30 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 1: favorite shows. But we're not gonna be talking about true 31 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: crime today. Well okay, maybe just a little bit. We 32 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 1: will be talking about some some some intersections between true 33 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: crime and the supernatural world. We're gonna be talking about 34 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 1: the fact that Patrick, throughout his whole life, has experienced 35 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:22,519 Speaker 1: all kinds of really interesting, supernatural and unexplicable phenomenon. Every 36 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: time he's talked about this online, I'm like just wrapped. 37 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 1: And I was like, when I started this podcast, I said, 38 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 1: you know what, I gotta talk to Patrick about all this, 39 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 1: and I also got to tell them all about the 40 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 1: gin because he knows nothing about them. So let's do 41 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 1: this let's talk to maybe one of my favorite people 42 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 1: in all of podcasting, Patrick Hines. Hi and welcome Patrick. 43 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:42,799 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining me this week. Hi, 44 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:47,239 Speaker 1: my love, it's it's so good to be your face. 45 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 1: Like I know, I was just gonna say that, I 46 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: get to like sit in my little studio and actually 47 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 1: I get to look at your glorious beauty. High you 48 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 1: know what I gotta say, Listeners, I'm sorry you don't 49 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 1: get to actually witness us. You're gonna get the audio, 50 00:02:58,600 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 1: but we get to see each other and that's fun. 51 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:02,799 Speaker 1: And my hair is out of control right now. I 52 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 1: don't know you should like hang up on me. I'm 53 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 1: looking at my own hair in this thing, and like 54 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 1: I have not, I truly not had a haircut. Personal hygiene, 55 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 1: personal hygiene in the time of quarantine, personal grooming. It's 56 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 1: all optional. My eyebrows are about to grow together. At 57 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: least about the one eyebrow. You would have the most 58 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 1: glorious unit one you would make it cheat, I would say, 59 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:29,079 Speaker 1: the face mask would really you know, like highlight it. Yeah, 60 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 1: that's but thank you so much again. And I know 61 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 1: here's the thing, this is the this is the fun 62 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 1: thing for me. Because Patrick was like, how do I 63 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 1: prepare for this? I was like, no, no, no, just 64 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 1: come on, I'm gonna And the other thing is that Patrick, 65 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: you know, I think nothing about this project and nothing 66 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 1: with the subject. But there's a reason I wanted you on. 67 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: So let me tell you a little bit about what's happening. 68 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 1: And so you are going to be part of my 69 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 1: Patreon series that goes along with the main Gin series 70 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 1: that by the time this airs, has already been airing. 71 00:03:56,600 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: Um so, do you have any idea what a GIN is? No? 72 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 1: I think that you and I talked about this, maybe 73 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 1: even a year ago. Um, when you were like, this 74 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 1: was beginning to bubble in your brain. Is something you 75 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: might want to do? I feel like it's the word 76 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: folklore comes to mind. But that's as much. That's as 77 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 1: far as I've got. Okay, So let me tell you 78 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 1: a little bit about the world of jin. Of course 79 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 1: you better be listened to my podcast by time. Are 80 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 1: you kidding? Already pre subscribed? Awesome? Um? So basically, yeah, 81 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:31,919 Speaker 1: So the realm of Gin is there's tons of folklore 82 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 1: and legend and stories and like the but it's actually 83 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:36,719 Speaker 1: much deeper than that because it's a tied to scripture. 84 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 1: It's tied to Jewish picture even and it's even pre 85 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 1: it's even pre Jewish Muslim Christian scripture, like the Jin 86 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:47,039 Speaker 1: are referred to like forty times in the Muslim scripture. 87 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: Like that's how serious we take it, Like we're like, wow, 88 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: these things are real, and it is a huge universe 89 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:54,599 Speaker 1: of them. I mean forget like any kind of like 90 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 1: Marvel universe of characters. Like, it's a huge universe of jin. 91 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 1: There's a million of them. Everybody has their personal one. 92 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 1: Is what You've got one with you right now. It's 93 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: gonna born and die with Yeah. Yeah, they're freaky um, 94 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: and so there's Jewish demonology tied with it. Then it 95 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 1: goes all the way back to antiquity like in Babylonia 96 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 1: and Assyria and like they were worshiped at one time. 97 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: It's freaking But the way that people who believe in 98 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:18,719 Speaker 1: the Gym think about them is that they're kind of 99 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: responsible all this phenomenal. We can't figure out ghosts and 100 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 1: crop circles and whatever. It's it's it's all we all 101 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:27,039 Speaker 1: just categorize it as, oh, it's a jin, it's a 102 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:29,719 Speaker 1: gin ff thing with us whatever. Oh, I love it. 103 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: So when you told me you've had multiple like supernatural experiences, 104 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 1: I'm like, in my head, I'm like, oh that's Jim 105 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:43,039 Speaker 1: Patrick has no idea. I give mess mugin. That's so interesting. 106 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: I when you say that they're born with you and 107 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:48,480 Speaker 1: they die with you. I I've always felt that it's 108 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 1: it's weird. It's like, you know, I felt like you 109 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:56,839 Speaker 1: have some presents or something. Yeah. Yeah, Like I think 110 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 1: about the handful of like supernatural experiences I've had in 111 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: my life are like probably number in like the eight 112 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 1: to ten. You know that's good. That's a lot. Yeah, 113 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 1: Well one is happening right now. Girl. I So we're 114 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 1: at our office and we have this door that we 115 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 1: like our office has a couple of different rooms in it, 116 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:18,480 Speaker 1: and there's this door that keeps opening by itself, and 117 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 1: it's so it's just it's so freaky and like there's 118 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 1: no it's just the door. It's not like a traditional 119 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: door that you can like close and you hear it 120 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:33,480 Speaker 1: like lap but like you pull it close. It's kind 121 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 1: of like a cheap, flimsy door. So maybe there's just 122 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:38,039 Speaker 1: something wrong with the door, but like you can hear 123 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 1: it click shut, and then like when you're not looking, 124 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 1: it just opens by itself. It's very freaky. Well, this 125 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:48,160 Speaker 1: is this this kind of like the latest phenomena. But I 126 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: want to go I want to like take Patrick back 127 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 1: to like a little Patrick. Yeah, I want to hear 128 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:54,479 Speaker 1: about Okay, first of all, were you raised in any 129 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 1: kind of like a faith tradition or any kind of 130 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:59,599 Speaker 1: like any kind of tradition that actually would like you know, 131 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 1: kind of accounts for some of your like ideas around 132 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 1: these things. Um So, so my mom is a lesbian. 133 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 1: I was raised in like the lesbian but my mom 134 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 1: was like a very is a very staunch Christian, and 135 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: she was a Catholic forever. Loved being Catholic. I was 136 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 1: an ultra boy forever. I really enjoyed it as a 137 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 1: young person, do I know. I like, I'm a very 138 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 1: spiritual person. I totally believe in God, but like I'm 139 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 1: not a religious person at all. And um but my 140 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: mom was very I mean this is a little bit 141 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 1: like lesbian nineties lesbian style. My mom was very into 142 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 1: like crystals and energy and go, like, you know, any 143 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 1: time I had any sort of experience, my mom totally 144 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 1: believed me, you know, And I would always tell her 145 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 1: about it. Yeah, yeah, and so like I mean, from 146 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 1: the time that I was a little kid, I would 147 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 1: I guess I would say, this sounds so corny, but 148 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 1: like I would have weird little premonitions, nothing major, but 149 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 1: I would sort of like a song, Like we'd be 150 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 1: in the car and like we'd be listening to the 151 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: radio and I'd be humming a song and it would 152 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 1: be like the next song that would come on or whatever. 153 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 1: But then I would start having like weird I know, 154 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 1: I started having weird like not weird, but I started 155 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 1: having like dreams and sort of like, um, I mean 156 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: when I was in like middle school, high school, I 157 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 1: would have like out of body experiences sometimes and it 158 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 1: would be like it was it would be like when 159 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 1: I would okay, let me ask this. Those out of 160 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 1: bodies were those something that you like wanted to have 161 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 1: and ord because look, I had a phase when I 162 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 1: was younger. Ilse like I heard about this thing and 163 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 1: I would try to make it happen. It didn't happen 164 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 1: for me. Yeah, I know, so I I did not 165 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 1: want it to happen. I wanted it to not happen. 166 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 1: And I had a couple of bouts of sleep paralysis, 167 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:49,559 Speaker 1: which I don't know if you know about this, but 168 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 1: like like there were there were a condful of times 169 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: when I was like, you know, I would say probably 170 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 1: fourteen or fifteen, where I always took naps in the 171 00:08:57,480 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: afternoon because I would come home from school and then 172 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 1: I would have like drama club at like six o'clock, 173 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 1: so I would like take a nap in between. I 174 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: know it's such a little theater gay um, but like 175 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: I would that would be the time, like if I 176 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 1: was to have an out of body experience, it would 177 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 1: be then. And I remember one time experiencing this about 178 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 1: of like sleep paralysis where I was awake but completely 179 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 1: unable to move, and I saw things in my room, 180 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 1: like I saw like there was a woman who was 181 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 1: wearing like it looked like like almost like colonial garb, 182 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 1: like floating in my room. And I don't know if 183 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 1: it has to do with like puberty. I've read some 184 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 1: stuff that like that that that like that there is 185 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:42,079 Speaker 1: something about that. But I remember talking to my mom 186 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 1: about this stuff. At the time. I saw a ghost 187 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:47,319 Speaker 1: around the same time. It was not a scary experience, 188 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 1: but like I shared a room with my brother and 189 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 1: I remember waking up in the middle of the night 190 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 1: and there was this woman dressed sort of as a 191 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 1: nun that was sort of standing at the top of 192 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: our stairs, um in the like in the like in 193 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:01,680 Speaker 1: the I don't know what you call that, like at 194 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:03,320 Speaker 1: the top of the stairs. And I could see it 195 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:06,679 Speaker 1: out of my bedroom. It wasn't scary. She came into 196 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 1: the room and like said, I know. She came into 197 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 1: the room and sat down on my brother's bed, and 198 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 1: for some reason, I was not scared, and she sort 199 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 1: of motioned for me to like lie back down, and 200 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:18,079 Speaker 1: I did, and she started like stroking my brother's hair. 201 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:24,079 Speaker 1: I know. But I remember talking to my mom about 202 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: this stuff, and my mom was saying, She's like, I 203 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:28,679 Speaker 1: think that you're like a sensitive person like you you 204 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:30,680 Speaker 1: experienced these things that she was saying, if you want 205 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: this to stop, you have to pray about it. You 206 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 1: have to pray and ask the universe or whatever God 207 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 1: you believe in to make it stop. And I did, 208 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: and it did, you know, it did for the most part. 209 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:44,200 Speaker 1: I do think. I think um and and people do 210 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 1: believe like the veil for some is thinner right because 211 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 1: you are open to the possibility but you're also much 212 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 1: more sensitive and receptive to everything that's happening around you, 213 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:54,839 Speaker 1: and you're willing to understand it in a certain way. 214 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 1: It's like how some people can actually be hypnotized for 215 00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 1: real and some people dust cannot. We were just looking 216 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 1: about this yesterday. Is hypnotis real? Is that? Is it real? Yeah? Yeah, 217 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 1: it can. It can absolutely truly be used. I know 218 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 1: it sounds so crazy, but people have been able to 219 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: retrieve memories, real memories, actual like memories that I have, 220 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 1: like corroborated memories, verified that they couldn't before. Or they've 221 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 1: been able to remember even details like in criminal cases 222 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 1: of crimes or something. But it doesn't work for everybody. 223 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, obviously our brains one of these 224 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:29,320 Speaker 1: big old sponges. They see everything and hear stuff, and 225 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:32,440 Speaker 1: it's it's in there somewhere. We just can't read it right, 226 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:35,439 Speaker 1: because when you hear people under hypnosis and their voices 227 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:39,079 Speaker 1: sound different, it's so creepy. Yeah. Now, I've talked to 228 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 1: people who have been hypnotized, and for for the for 229 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:44,439 Speaker 1: the people who worked like I've tried to get hypnotized 230 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 1: because I was like I want to do this. It 231 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 1: didn't work for me because I was just too hyper 232 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 1: aware of you know, It's like it's like wanting it 233 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 1: to happen, wanting it to work. Yeah, I can't relax 234 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: in a bath because I'm like, you know, I'm sit 235 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:57,319 Speaker 1: there and I'm like too hyper aware of everything that's 236 00:11:57,320 --> 00:11:59,200 Speaker 1: going on. My brain won't shut off. But I have 237 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 1: talked to people who really did experience it for real 238 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 1: and where it was able to help them act three um, 239 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 1: like through some therapy scenarios and stuff. So okay, so 240 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 1: I want to talk a lot. So you said it stopped, 241 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:11,840 Speaker 1: So then like, for what month of your filthhood you 242 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 1: didn't experience it or what happened? I would say that 243 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 1: I felt more in control of it, you know what 244 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 1: I mean? Like I would say that like when I 245 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 1: was a kid, especially around my puberty years, like between 246 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 1: the ages of twelve to fifteen or sixteen, I feel 247 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 1: like this stuff was happening all the time, and it 248 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:31,839 Speaker 1: felt like scary to me. And I kind of like 249 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 1: your brother too, or your mother too, or anybody else 250 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 1: in the family or just do do you know? That's 251 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 1: such an interesting question. I I have never we've never 252 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 1: talked about it. I would imagine that my mom, I 253 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 1: don't know, I've never God, Robbie, I'm now having this 254 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: realization of like, wow, a little bit self possessed, Arni 255 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 1: Patricks that like, you love to share these stories, but 256 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:58,319 Speaker 1: you've never asked your own family if they've None of 257 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 1: my family has ever come up and said like any 258 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:02,839 Speaker 1: like anything like this has ever happened to them, Because 259 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 1: I feel like your mom's response is almost the kind 260 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: of response that somebody would have if if they get it, 261 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 1: like they're like, oh yeah, yeah, like I totally yeah. 262 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, my mom has always said that 263 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 1: her mother, who I never I guess I met her 264 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 1: when I was very very young, but I don't have 265 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:25,079 Speaker 1: any memories of her. But she lived in Manhattan, and 266 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 1: I live in Manhattan. My mom's mom was like a 267 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: New Yorker, like you know, like loved New York and 268 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 1: the whole thing. My mom says that she feels like 269 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 1: her mother is like with me. So when you said that, 270 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:34,439 Speaker 1: like they're born with you and they die with you 271 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 1: like that, that sort of struck me. Like I feel 272 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: like my my grandmother, who I've never met, I feel 273 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:42,960 Speaker 1: like she is with me sometimes, Like there are times 274 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:46,199 Speaker 1: that I I went to a medium once and had 275 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:48,680 Speaker 1: like a reading and she was like, yeah, her Ruth, 276 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: like she said her name, and I was like, oh 277 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 1: my god, it's true. And she's like you should talk 278 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 1: to her, like you should talk to her because like 279 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:58,959 Speaker 1: that makes it stronger, you know, don't know. Yeah, I 280 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 1: talked to her. She's probably in this room high room. 281 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:05,680 Speaker 1: Hey girl opening the door in the other room. Okay, 282 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 1: So okay, the gosh well hopefully when I mean ruthe 283 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:13,559 Speaker 1: but but okay, so the Ruth might be with you, 284 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 1: but there might be something else with you too. So 285 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 1: the gym that's born with you and dies with you, 286 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 1: that's like your own personal thing. But the ghost phenomena 287 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 1: of people like lingering with us, that's also. God I've seen, 288 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 1: I mean, I've seen people who have passed like in 289 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 1: my dreams that are so real that I just know 290 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: it's really I know they're actually talking to me. This 291 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 1: is not like me making stuff. That's how it really is. Totally. Yes, 292 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 1: I've said this recently. It was so funny. I was 293 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 1: we were when when the COVID first happened, before any 294 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 1: lockdowns or anything like that happened. My husband and my 295 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 1: daughter and I left the city because we knew that 296 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: they were gonna lock down Manhattan. We don't we live 297 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 1: in eight square feet. We're like, we gotta get out 298 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 1: of here. We don't have a yard, like our kids 299 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: got to be able to play outside. So we left. 300 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 1: We got a cabin in Massachusetts and I had I 301 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 1: had a ghost sighting there and it was just super 302 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: super boring ghost sighting. But I mentioned it that sounds 303 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 1: really like that. It's not even possible. You can not 304 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 1: have a super boring ghost sighting. Girl, This ghost was asleep. 305 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 1: It was so it was like, I'll tell you the 306 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 1: story in a second. But like I mentioned it on 307 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: True Crime Obsessed and somebody heard it and this lady 308 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 1: called me and asked me if she could interview me 309 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 1: about it, and I thought it was just for a blog, 310 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 1: and it ended up being for a story for the 311 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: New York Times. So I have told this now and 312 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 1: then I got a million interview request about it. I've 313 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 1: told the story like ten million times in the last 314 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 1: two months. But it was, um oh, I am very 315 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: concerned that I missed that story. How did that happen? Okay, Oh, 316 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 1: it's a fascinating story. It's all about people who are 317 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 1: seeing like ghosts in quarantine and like is it real 318 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 1: or are we all just like going crazy? Look that up. Okay, 319 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 1: it's really interesting. I mean, like, this was the thing 320 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 1: where I just woke up at like two in the 321 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 1: morning and I went to get a glass of water, 322 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 1: and as I was walking to like into the kitchen, 323 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 1: I noticed that there was like a person sitting at 324 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 1: the at the kitchen table, like an older man and 325 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 1: like a like an old school military uniform. And in 326 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 1: my brain it's sort of like made sense to me 327 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 1: because it wasn't our house, and I was like, oh, 328 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 1: this is like his house. And and then when I 329 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: sort of realized what was happening, I looked over and 330 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 1: I saw him and he had his head down on 331 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 1: his chest. He looked like he was asleep, and then 332 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, he was just gone, Oh my gosh, 333 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 1: what God. And Julian said, Jillian my coast said to me, 334 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 1: go through the photo albums in the house and see 335 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: if you can find anybody who looks like him. But 336 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 1: I realized they have a whole family tree wall in 337 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 1: their house, and I went and looked at it, and 338 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 1: it goes all the way back, and I didn't really 339 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 1: see the ghost face, so I don't know what he 340 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 1: looks like. But I saw all these men from like 341 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 1: the twenties that looked like in these military uniforms, which crazy. 342 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 1: So I just have to know how the rest of 343 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 1: that night played out. Did you just get your water 344 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 1: and go back to bed, like, oh, well, I literally like, oh, 345 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: I just saw a ghost and then I went and 346 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 1: I almost didn't tell Steve, my husband, about it the 347 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 1: next day. It was such a non occurrence that I 348 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 1: almost didn't mention it. And I told him, And of 349 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 1: course Steve doesn't believe in any of this stuff. It's like, no, 350 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,919 Speaker 1: Steve is the most like you know, you're born and 351 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:08,720 Speaker 1: then you're you know, yeah, you're born and you die. 352 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:11,479 Speaker 1: Guy out there, you just not believe in any of it. 353 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. It's tough to live with someone because 354 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 1: you know what, then the other person is like, oh, 355 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 1: you're just like some crazy conspiracy theorist. But I'm glad 356 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:26,640 Speaker 1: you're making your marriage work despite this difference. But okay, 357 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 1: but even before you went out to this, I feel 358 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 1: like an old cabin in um in Matthews makes sense 359 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 1: to me, like that's where like if you're gonna find 360 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:36,640 Speaker 1: like lingering spirits, that's gonna be there. But you've had 361 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:39,400 Speaker 1: experiences like in flipp in Manhattan, right like in your 362 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 1: in your home. I'm trying to think about them, uh, 363 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:46,920 Speaker 1: experience with Daisy or something. Oh yes, in our Okay. 364 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 1: So we've moved several times in the last couple of years. 365 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 1: But our first apartment that we lived in with Daisy day, 366 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 1: I never saw anything in this apartment but Daisy. We 367 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 1: would hear Daisy as like a two year old talking 368 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:01,679 Speaker 1: to somebody, like literally, and then and then we and 369 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:05,199 Speaker 1: we would like here on the baby monitor, and then um, 370 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:07,399 Speaker 1: I'm trying one day, and then she started talking about 371 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 1: the man. She started talking about the man in her room. 372 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:12,879 Speaker 1: So she would say, like, Daddy, the man woke me 373 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:14,919 Speaker 1: up this morning. And I would say, which man, the 374 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 1: man that lives in my room? Daddy, the man that 375 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 1: lives in my room? I know, I know, Okay, Okay. 376 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: The debaby baby monitor have like was it a video monitor? No? 377 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:32,160 Speaker 1: And that was the thing that we we had debated 378 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 1: getting and I was sort of like, I kind of 379 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 1: can't handle the idea of like seeing her talking to 380 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:40,439 Speaker 1: like that would just scare the ship out of me. 381 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 1: And I can't handle that. But you could hear her talking, yeah, 382 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:47,640 Speaker 1: so what do you do, Like George, don't really make 383 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 1: like real like they don't make like, you know, real sentences. 384 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 1: But she's responding, yeah, totally. And she would talk about 385 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 1: the man, the man that lived in her room, and 386 00:18:57,760 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 1: it was just like, oh my god. And you know 387 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:02,120 Speaker 1: she six now and like I don't remember anything from 388 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 1: when I was two, she still talks about that apartment, 389 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 1: in that room, like there was she had some sort 390 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 1: of connection to it. Does she remember the man she 391 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 1: talked to? I haven't asked her about that in a 392 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 1: long time. I should ask her. I don't want to 393 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 1: scare her because now she would understand better, but I 394 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:18,680 Speaker 1: should ask her about that. Well, what did she tell 395 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 1: you about the man? What did she have to say 396 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:24,719 Speaker 1: about him? She would say, not a lot. I remember that, 397 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 1: like she would he would be there like when the 398 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:30,160 Speaker 1: lights were off, like it was never when the lights 399 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:36,919 Speaker 1: were on, and we never, like you can't get like, 400 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: Daisy is not one to Daisy is not a woman 401 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 1: of many words as it is, so as soon as 402 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 1: you she senses that you're trying to get information out 403 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 1: of her, she just completely clams up. So yeah, it 404 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:50,160 Speaker 1: was it was always just more like, oh, the man 405 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:51,879 Speaker 1: woke me up this morning, and it was something. It 406 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:53,359 Speaker 1: wasn't like a thing that happened all the time. I 407 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: remember she probably said that like once or twice, and 408 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 1: it was like, oh my god, so did Steve. What 409 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:02,399 Speaker 1: does Steve think? She's just loot any dream? Like he 410 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 1: just doesn't pay any attention to it. He's just like whatever, 411 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:08,439 Speaker 1: She's just she's just talking, you know. Well, so let 412 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 1: me ask you this. If the nun didn't scare you, 413 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 1: was there ever? I'm guessing the sleep paralysis was kind 414 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:16,159 Speaker 1: of frightening. That was terrifying. That was terrifying because I 415 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 1: knew I was awake and I couldn't move Like that 416 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 1: is positive you were awake. I mean, I guess I 417 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 1: would say I remember it so vividly now and I 418 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:29,680 Speaker 1: remember in the moment, so it didn't right now, I'm 419 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 1: awake and like I'm very awake, right, but like it 420 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 1: didn't feel like this, But it definitely I never had 421 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 1: words for it until very recently. I feel like sleep 422 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 1: roalysis became a thing that people started talking about maybe 423 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:46,199 Speaker 1: five or six years ago. So before that, I just 424 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:49,399 Speaker 1: was like I was awake and I couldn't move. And 425 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 1: it wasn't like I came out of it. It was 426 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 1: like I kind of I guess I went back to 427 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:55,639 Speaker 1: sleep and then I woke up. It wasn't like I 428 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:57,159 Speaker 1: can't move, I can't move, I can't move it now 429 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:01,639 Speaker 1: I can't move. Um, it was I I can't move 430 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 1: and that is terrifying. And there is a woman hovering 431 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 1: in my room. And so I never knew about When 432 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:12,160 Speaker 1: I learned about sleep prosis and I learned I heard 433 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 1: other people's stories about it, it was similar where it 434 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:17,920 Speaker 1: was like things that you would be having nightmares about, 435 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:20,400 Speaker 1: but they're actually like they look real and they're in 436 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:23,399 Speaker 1: your space. And I was like, I have that experience. 437 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:26,639 Speaker 1: I I that happened to me. We'll be right back 438 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:30,439 Speaker 1: after the short break. One of the one of the 439 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: episodes I do talk about sleep paralysis and actually how 440 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:38,119 Speaker 1: common it is. And what's interesting is it's a phenomena 441 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:41,639 Speaker 1: that's like experienced in every culture and every point in history. 442 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 1: It's been documented forever um and it's a it's very 443 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 1: everybody's experiences are really similar. What what is actually the 444 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 1: only usual difference is like kind of the cultural context. 445 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 1: So people are seeing things that makes sense to them. 446 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 1: So you might not see, for example, um, like a 447 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 1: creature from Zimbabwe, right because it's that makes sense in 448 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 1: your cultural right right there, you're gonna see, Yeah, you're 449 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 1: gonna see what would what would make sense to you 450 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 1: and scare you accordingly, Oh that's so interesting. Has that 451 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 1: ever happened to you? It has not. Um, I feel 452 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:14,399 Speaker 1: like maybe I'm I don't know, maybe I need to 453 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 1: like soften my edges or something like I want, I 454 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:20,399 Speaker 1: want to expect. I've had some experiences that are definitely 455 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,639 Speaker 1: I feel like they're supernatural. Now, Susan Simpson, who's my 456 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:27,400 Speaker 1: attorney in my colleague on Disclosed, is like somebody broke 457 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:28,920 Speaker 1: into your house and did X Y Z and you 458 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 1: just never knew it. And I'm like, no, I don't 459 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 1: think that was what happened. I would imagine that Susan 460 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 1: Simpson is not a believer, And like, I feel like 461 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 1: Susan Simpson and Steve are very similar. Probably yeah, they're 462 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 1: very Yeah, you kind of if if I can see, 463 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:42,679 Speaker 1: if I can touch it, I can understand it. Whatever. 464 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 1: But but I believe it's kind of like, you know, 465 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 1: one of the things I say, like you said at 466 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:49,159 Speaker 1: the top of the show. You like at the top 467 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 1: of the episode you said, you know, I believe in God. 468 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 1: It's like if you believe in God, then it's like 469 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:54,159 Speaker 1: where are your lines? Like you can't kind of be 470 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 1: like I believe in God, but I don't believe that 471 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:57,880 Speaker 1: X Like if you can believe in something that kind 472 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:01,200 Speaker 1: of fantastical, like why can't you leave in other things? Could? 473 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,399 Speaker 1: I know? And I love that, Like I love the 474 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 1: freedom to think different things on different days, you know 475 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:12,359 Speaker 1: what I mean, Like I think that like I definitely yeah, yeah, 476 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:16,399 Speaker 1: Like I definitely believe in God. I want to believe 477 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: that there's some sort of afterlife, but like do I 478 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 1: believe in like heaven? That seems weird, you know what 479 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:26,200 Speaker 1: I mean? Like, oh that's interesting. Okay, that's a whole show. 480 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 1: I know, I know, I know, because like if there's 481 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 1: an afterlife but there's nowhere to go, what do you 482 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:34,879 Speaker 1: do just hang around? I know and think some people 483 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:36,920 Speaker 1: get stuck here and where you know what I mean, 484 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:40,120 Speaker 1: Like you would think that by now Like the other 485 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 1: like the counter to it is that like if there 486 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 1: was like a god in a heaven and like an afterlife. 487 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 1: You would think they're somebody would have been able to 488 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,640 Speaker 1: prove it by now, don't you think. I mean only 489 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:51,199 Speaker 1: the dead can prove. I mean like how do you 490 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: how do you don't know? I mean so okay, so 491 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,919 Speaker 1: for me the whole I mean, that's why it's called faith, right, 492 00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 1: Like you do you have to believe in something you can't, 493 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 1: you have no way to bear FI. Although I'd say 494 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 1: people who have had near life or near death experiences 495 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:08,880 Speaker 1: excuse me, um, almost always come back with like if 496 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:11,640 Speaker 1: they were not believers in something supernatural, they come back 497 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 1: as because they have a very and they all have 498 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,120 Speaker 1: very similar of course, scientists are like, well that's your 499 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:19,160 Speaker 1: brain breaking down that tunnel of light and yeah, I mean, 500 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 1: look if that's what the afterlife is, and um, but 501 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 1: it's hard for me to believe that outside of my 502 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 1: physical body, that I don't exist in another way like yeah, yeah, 503 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:31,359 Speaker 1: that's what's hard to And I'll tell you, like I've 504 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 1: definitely experienced the I want to hear the auto body experiences. Hello, 505 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:38,879 Speaker 1: so you have experienced it. Yeah, It's it's hard to 506 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:43,639 Speaker 1: say because like I've never had the experience of like 507 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 1: floating out my window and like over this like now 508 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,760 Speaker 1: I'm flying through the city. Like when you when I'm 509 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,640 Speaker 1: awake and I think about out of body experiences, that's 510 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:55,359 Speaker 1: kind of the the experience you want to have. And 511 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 1: it was one of the things when I was younger. 512 00:24:57,680 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 1: I would experience it when I was taking a nap. 513 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 1: It was never like at night when I was going 514 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,119 Speaker 1: to sleep. You know, there was something about the taking 515 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:07,480 Speaker 1: of a night and it would either be when I 516 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 1: was right when I was falling asleep or right when 517 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 1: I was waking up. I mean, have you ever heard 518 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 1: that experience when you're you're either trying to fall asleep 519 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:15,400 Speaker 1: or you're just about to wake up, and you feel 520 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 1: like you're falling in like you kind of get that 521 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,200 Speaker 1: sensation of following that's never happened to you, never happened 522 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:22,439 Speaker 1: to me. I have a I have my weird in 523 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: that twilight whatever I call it, like twilight between sleep 524 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:29,400 Speaker 1: and awake experiences. I always hear a door slam um, 525 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 1: and it's terrifying because I don't know if it's real 526 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,359 Speaker 1: or not real, if somebody's somebody's outside, like you know, 527 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,479 Speaker 1: that's my That's what I I've never had the falling experience, 528 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 1: but that's what interesting. So I've felt that, But I've 529 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:45,160 Speaker 1: also had the experience of being asleep or being almost 530 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 1: asleep and starting to feel that separation. People are gonna 531 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 1: think I'm crazy, but starting to feel that separation of 532 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,640 Speaker 1: like coming out of my body. And I remember when 533 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 1: I was younger really fighting it, being like, uh, like 534 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:01,880 Speaker 1: it's so scary and you don't wanted to happen. And 535 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 1: oh recently, I would say, this happened to me while 536 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:06,880 Speaker 1: I was living in my current apartment. We've been there 537 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 1: for about two years. I remember having the experience of 538 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 1: being like, okay, like let this happen, like let's see 539 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 1: what happens. Yeah, and sort of feeling that sort of 540 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 1: like coming out of my body and sort of I 541 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,639 Speaker 1: expected it to feel like, Okay, now I'm floating around 542 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 1: my apartment and it wasn't that. It was much more 543 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 1: of like a blackness, just sort of like a like 544 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,159 Speaker 1: a like a different like turn around and look at 545 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 1: your body, see or you know. I've never had that 546 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 1: experience that would be fucking terrifying to me, Like I 547 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:46,199 Speaker 1: I would not enjoy that. This was more feeling that 548 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,199 Speaker 1: sort of separation, feeling like I was out of my 549 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:51,880 Speaker 1: body but not but not being able to see anything, 550 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:55,679 Speaker 1: just sort of like a black haze of like you know, 551 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,920 Speaker 1: sort of atmosphere. That's but but it was a really 552 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,119 Speaker 1: like a sensation head But did you fall did you 553 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:04,639 Speaker 1: fall asleep after that or did you wake up? Yes? No, 554 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 1: I fell asleep after that today. I mean there are 555 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 1: lots there are lots of stories about people who report 556 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,960 Speaker 1: like being in surgery or having something procedure. I was 557 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:15,679 Speaker 1: going to ask you about this, Yeah, and then they 558 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 1: say they want they could see that, and and the 559 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 1: things that they report seeing the doctors like, well, they 560 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 1: couldn't have known that because they were Like so there 561 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 1: was one doctor I was reading about who actually put 562 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 1: markers on the like somewhere on the gurney or whatever 563 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 1: they were on that you would not be able to 564 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,440 Speaker 1: see just by like lying there, so that you would 565 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 1: have to have like you would have like to say, 566 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 1: like oh, like the letter R is written on like 567 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:43,160 Speaker 1: the wherever, and like the only way you could know 568 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 1: that would be like if you actually came out of 569 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 1: your body and side like that makes totally like being 570 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 1: in surgery. That makes total sense. To me, you know that, 571 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:52,880 Speaker 1: like you would have that sort of well you know, 572 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 1: I mean to me, Okay, maybe it's not scientific evidence, 573 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:57,119 Speaker 1: but there it's evidence I feel like of something like 574 00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 1: how how would somebody how had you explained somebody being 575 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,879 Speaker 1: able to do that unless there's a consciousness that is 576 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 1: separate from the actual physical body. But anyway, after this, 577 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:08,399 Speaker 1: basically nobody's gonna believe anything I do or say, So 578 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:10,359 Speaker 1: I understand what they say with me, say with me. 579 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 1: I know, I know, I know. Let me ask you this. So, 580 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:14,879 Speaker 1: you you mentioned that you went to a medium, and 581 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,080 Speaker 1: I've heard you bring up mediums a number of times 582 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 1: in UM two Crib Obsess and also Obsessed with Disappeared, 583 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 1: because you know, I listened to both those shows. I 584 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:24,359 Speaker 1: can't believe you listen to both of these shows. Oh 585 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:26,960 Speaker 1: my god, you guys like you don't understand how many 586 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 1: dark Knights you've gotten me through. And some times I 587 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 1: love you guys. So and I've heard you bring up 588 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:34,879 Speaker 1: me because I love it, because you kind of dangle 589 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:36,360 Speaker 1: it out there because you want your like co host 590 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 1: to be like totally jump on and be like yeah, yeah, 591 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 1: I mean, but but then you cut it back off. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 592 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,440 Speaker 1: the whole thing. Like my my issue with like psychics. 593 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:46,920 Speaker 1: I totally believe in psychics, but like I feel like 594 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 1: they always come out of the woodwork when there's like 595 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 1: like a like a known like when there's some sort 596 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: of like high profile case or whatever, and I feel 597 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 1: like it always leads to like a dive team of 598 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 1: twelve people dredging a lake and it costs the town 599 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 1: eight million dollars and it's a wee resources. But I 600 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 1: went to see um. I went to see a medium 601 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 1: who was a friend of our friend Laura Bricker when 602 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 1: I went to like yeah, yeah, yeah, I can't think 603 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: of Susan. Susan Gorman I think is her name. And 604 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 1: I went to see her and we had this really 605 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 1: cool session like it was. It was I got a 606 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 1: lot out of it. And she was one that like 607 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:28,000 Speaker 1: knew my grandmother's name. It was weird. Wow, But had 608 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,080 Speaker 1: you it wasn't the only time you've ever gone to 609 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:33,800 Speaker 1: a medium? I think? So, I think it was. I 610 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 1: mean it's the kind of thing I would go all 611 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 1: the time, you know, it's just never think to do it. Yeah. Yeah, 612 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 1: it's like I don't get time for the manicure pedicure, 613 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 1: but you know, you know you want to get I'm 614 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 1: always fascinated when I hear stories about law enforcement themselves 615 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,480 Speaker 1: reaching out to mediums. I'm like, that's a bold move 616 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 1: and you're realized putting yourself out there for some criticism 617 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 1: to be able to do. And I'm like, I want 618 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 1: to hear a story of like a case being solved 619 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 1: by a medium. Like if if law enforcement is reaching 620 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 1: out that often, there must be cases out there where 621 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 1: they've really helped. Well, there there's a new podcast. I know. Look, 622 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 1: inter section, the intersection between true crime and the supernatural? 623 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 1: Is this getting more and more clear here? Um? Totally? So? 624 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,840 Speaker 1: Well do you, um, have you had a truly other 625 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 1: than the out of body experience? Have you had a 626 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 1: truly terrifying experience with what you think might be like 627 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 1: a malevolent spirit or something. No, I've never had that. 628 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 1: Let me think for just a second. No, I mean 629 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: there was so there when I where I was when 630 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 1: I was growing up. I grew up in this like 631 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker 1: subdivision on Cape Cod and we had a pond. Uh, 632 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 1: there was like woods behind my house and then there 633 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 1: was a pond and there was a man who died 634 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 1: by suicide on one of the trees down there when 635 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,240 Speaker 1: I was growing up, he took his own life. He 636 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 1: hanged himself, and for years, I mean for decades, the 637 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 1: rope was still there, and I know, I mean it's 638 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 1: just the rope that was tied around the like, yeah, 639 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 1: like for some reason, like when they took down the body, 640 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 1: like they just didn't like cut the rope all the way. 641 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:15,520 Speaker 1: And there was always I don't know, there was something 642 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 1: about that area where I knew that man had died 643 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 1: and it was a place that I was at all 644 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 1: the time, you know, um that there was something about 645 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 1: that that area that felt scary to me. I mean, 646 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:29,960 Speaker 1: obviously a person had died there, so maybe that was 647 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 1: just it and I was a kid, um, But I've 648 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 1: never had like, I know, I've never had like I 649 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:40,719 Speaker 1: really like terrifying you know, like devil encounter or anything 650 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 1: like that. Have you? Uh No, But my husband was 651 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 1: convinced when I started like researching and scripting for this show. 652 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 1: He's like, we are totally a hundred be possessed now, 653 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 1: Like so far, other than like items being moved mysteriously, 654 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 1: nothing has happened. So I guess we're okay. I use 655 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,360 Speaker 1: somebody who I use somebody who loves like horror and Halloween, 656 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 1: and I do. I like horror movies. I will say that, like, 657 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 1: since I became the father of a little girl, it's 658 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,200 Speaker 1: sort of changed the way that I watched pop culture 659 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:18,240 Speaker 1: or stuff, because I feel like I didn't for some reason. 660 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:20,719 Speaker 1: I'm just a bad feminist and I didn't realize that, 661 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 1: like the way women are treated and abused in these 662 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 1: like for entertainment in these films is just like unwatchable 663 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 1: to me now. Um So that's something that's become more 664 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:32,960 Speaker 1: clear to me, Like since I've been a dad, which 665 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 1: is stupid. You shouldn't need to have a daughter to 666 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 1: like recognize that women aren't being treated very well. Um 667 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,640 Speaker 1: but I do like horror movies. I do like things 668 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 1: that scare me, but I get very scared, Like I 669 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 1: get very don't like jump out of the closet scenes. 670 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 1: Do you believe in the Devil? No? Really? Yeah, yeah, 671 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:54,720 Speaker 1: I was just thinking about that because I was thinking 672 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 1: about how like I don't believe in possession. I don't 673 00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 1: think that's a real thing. Any thing is happening there, 674 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,400 Speaker 1: like mental illness her. Yeah, I mean, like all of 675 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 1: the possession stuff I've seen. I'm sorry, Catholics, forgive me. 676 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 1: I was one of you once. It feels very much 677 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 1: like an opportunity for like priests to hit women like 678 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,200 Speaker 1: you always see these women like tied to chairs or 679 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 1: women tied to beds and just horribly abused, like you know, 680 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,960 Speaker 1: watch a documentary like there's one. Um, there's a documentary 681 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 1: that we covered a couple of years ago called The 682 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:28,640 Speaker 1: Devil and Father a mort Um and it was about 683 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,320 Speaker 1: this possession of this woman in Italy and it was 684 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 1: they abused this woman. I mean, crazy story. I hated 685 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 1: watching it and so I don't know. I don't I 686 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 1: don't think I do believe in the devil. Now you 687 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 1: made me saying it out loud, Robi, what's gonna happen 688 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 1: to me? Now? It's okay, Ruth will protect you. Yeah, alright, Well, 689 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 1: I don't want to take up any more of your time. 690 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,920 Speaker 1: But also this is a really fun conversation and I've 691 00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 1: been thinking about it. I've been thinking about this for 692 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:00,719 Speaker 1: a while because every time you something up and I 693 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 1: love that whenever you like post about it or tweet 694 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 1: about or anything, like, all your listeners are like totally 695 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:07,479 Speaker 1: they're lined up with you man, they have your they 696 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:11,360 Speaker 1: have your back. I know we have the most like 697 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:14,479 Speaker 1: loyal listeners. Oh my god. I love that they'll follow 698 00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,120 Speaker 1: you anywhere, including into the general and Patrick, I know, 699 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:19,839 Speaker 1: I can't wait. You guys were recording this like long 700 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,839 Speaker 1: before your podcast is out. I cannot wait to hear it. Yeah, 701 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:23,920 Speaker 1: I can't wait for you to hear it too. It's 702 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 1: gonna be a lot of fun and thank you again. 703 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:27,480 Speaker 1: I can't wait for our listeners to hear this conversation because, Yeah, 704 00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 1: you're just a good dear friend. And I think both 705 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 1: of us, both of us kind of like a very 706 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:33,840 Speaker 1: sensitive these kinds of things. I know, like for me, 707 00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 1: like I can't go to places like Alcatraz. I can't 708 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:38,160 Speaker 1: go to places where I know people have suffered because 709 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:41,560 Speaker 1: I can't. It just had my whole I can feel 710 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 1: that I feel too much pain in it. Yeah, I 711 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:48,239 Speaker 1: went to Alcatraz and I actually loved my trip to Alcatraz. 712 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:50,799 Speaker 1: Really it was weird. The reason I wanted to go 713 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:54,279 Speaker 1: to Alcatraz is because Matthew Shepard. Do you remember that 714 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 1: Matthew sheff You know, the gay kid in Wyoming that 715 00:34:57,560 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 1: was tied to the fence and beaten to death in 716 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,360 Speaker 1: nineteen of the eight The only really well known pictures 717 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:04,719 Speaker 1: of him had been taken of him at Alcatraz like 718 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,680 Speaker 1: the year before he was murdered. And so I wanted 719 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:10,840 Speaker 1: to go and find the places at Alcatraz where he 720 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:14,400 Speaker 1: had been, and that was I wanted to feel his energy. 721 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:16,319 Speaker 1: That was kind of why I wanted to go there. 722 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:18,840 Speaker 1: But he was, I mean, and I found there's a 723 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:21,440 Speaker 1: these like set of stairs where he had like taken 724 00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:24,080 Speaker 1: some photos and it was kind of like a it 725 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:26,279 Speaker 1: was a crazy moment to sort of be there and 726 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:29,640 Speaker 1: be like he stood right here, Like that was crazy. Um, 727 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,920 Speaker 1: But Alcatraz is I'm kind of the opposite. Not that 728 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 1: I want to go and like revel in a place 729 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,480 Speaker 1: where people have suffered, but I love the idea of 730 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:40,360 Speaker 1: being in a place where you know something has happened 731 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,600 Speaker 1: and sort of trying to like feel that energy. Like 732 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 1: I I kind of like I'm drawn to that. Now. 733 00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:51,200 Speaker 1: I completely understand like the the flip side of that, 734 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:54,680 Speaker 1: because like I really want to visit, Like Ashwitz, I 735 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:57,520 Speaker 1: really want to visit, I mean, because I want to 736 00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:01,600 Speaker 1: bear witness to the atrocities. Um, I just don't wanna 737 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:04,960 Speaker 1: it's when it feels like touristy that it's hard for me. 738 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:08,680 Speaker 1: I think, thank you again, and uh, if you know, 739 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:10,440 Speaker 1: keep us updated. I want to hear about all your 740 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:12,440 Speaker 1: gen stories. Keep a look at and if you can 741 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:14,400 Speaker 1: get a videotape of that door opening and closing in 742 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:16,560 Speaker 1: your office, I have to see it. Oh my god, 743 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,840 Speaker 1: I totally well, it's terrifying awesome, all right, girl, I 744 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:22,040 Speaker 1: love you. Thank you for having me. I love you too, 745 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:25,400 Speaker 1: and thank you for coming on. If you want to 746 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:27,759 Speaker 1: follow Patrick more because now you love him the way 747 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,319 Speaker 1: I love him, you can follow him online. You can 748 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:33,120 Speaker 1: find him on Twitter and Facebook. His handle on Twitter 749 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,840 Speaker 1: is at Patrick Kinds. Both of his shows that I 750 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 1: am just completely obsessed with are called true Crime Obsessed 751 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:43,560 Speaker 1: and Obsessed with Disappeared hilarious true crime comedies, which I 752 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:45,560 Speaker 1: know it sounds like it can't happen, but believe me, 753 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:47,759 Speaker 1: they do it. They do it beautifully, tastefully, and it 754 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:50,120 Speaker 1: will just leave you rolling. Find them both on your 755 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 1: favorite podcast apps, subscribe and don't forget to leave them 756 00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,399 Speaker 1: some love on iTunes. Thanks for listening. We'll be back 757 00:36:56,440 --> 00:37:00,840 Speaker 1: soon with more gin stories. I hope you enjoyed that 758 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:04,239 Speaker 1: conversation as much as I did. Now, there are as 759 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,040 Speaker 1: many people in the world with jin stories as there 760 00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 1: are jin, so if you have one you'd like to share, 761 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:12,760 Speaker 1: make sure to email it to me at the Hidden 762 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:16,719 Speaker 1: Gin at gmail dot com. That's the Hidden Gin. Th 763 00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,040 Speaker 1: H E H I D d N d J I 764 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:23,640 Speaker 1: n N at gmail dot com. And until next time, 765 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:35,520 Speaker 1: remember we are not alone. The Hidden Gin is a 766 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:38,480 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio and Grimm and Mild from 767 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:42,280 Speaker 1: Aaron Mankey. The podcast is written and hosted by Robbia 768 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:46,520 Speaker 1: Chaudry and produced by Miranda Hawkins and Trevor Young, with 769 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:51,640 Speaker 1: executive producers Aaron Mankey, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. Our 770 00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:55,719 Speaker 1: theme song was created by Patrick Quartetz. For more podcasts 771 00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,760 Speaker 1: from I heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, 772 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:02,319 Speaker 1: Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.