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Speaker 1: In May nineteen ninety three, three young Arkansas boys, Stevie Branch,

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Speaker 1: Christopher Byers, and Michael Moore, went missing.

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Speaker 2: Three little cub Scouts hog Tide and left in an

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Speaker 2: Arkansas did.

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Speaker 3: One of the most controversial legal cases in the state's history.

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Speaker 3: A jury found the man guilty of murdering the eight

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Speaker 3: year old boys back in nineteen ninety three, in what

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Speaker 3: prosecutors at the time had called some sort of a

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Speaker 3: Satanic ritual.

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Speaker 2: Celebrities fighting for the teen's release claimed the kids were

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Speaker 2: railroaded because of their mummets, dark clothes, and fascination.

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Speaker 1: With the occult sticking killings that might have been part

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Speaker 1: of a Satanic ritual.

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Speaker 2: Convicted murderers Jason Baldwin, Jesse mss Kelly, and Damian Eccles

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Speaker 2: are now free men.

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Speaker 1: They spent seventeen years in prison for a crime that

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Speaker 1: stunned Arkansas.

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Speaker 2: So West Memphis three would be allowed to walk out

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Speaker 2: of prison, but prosecutors agreed to sign off on the

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Speaker 2: deal only if the defendants would plead guilty.

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Speaker 4: A long time on death row for something that you

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Speaker 4: insist you didn't do. There's always the possibility that the

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Speaker 4: person that you're killing is aest.

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Speaker 1: This is Wrongful Conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction today.

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Speaker 1: I have a special show for you, and I think

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Speaker 1: it's going to be a real treat because with me,

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Speaker 1: I have a guy who has done profound work in

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Speaker 1: film dealing with wrongful convictions. I'm super excited to have

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Speaker 1: him here to share some stories and some wisdom and

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Speaker 1: his outlooks. So Joe Burlinger, Welcome to Wrongful Conviction.

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Speaker 5: Jason.

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Speaker 1: Thanks.

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Speaker 5: I'm a big fan of the podcast and a fan

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Speaker 5: of you, so I'm glad to be here. In fact,

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Speaker 5: it amazes me that since I consider myself a music

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Speaker 5: and wrongful conviction guy, and you're amazing music and wrongful

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Speaker 5: conviction guy, I'm amazed. We haven't met until recently, which

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Speaker 5: is why this podcast came to me. We shared a

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Speaker 5: nice dinner together.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we had dinner recently with Damian Eccles and Amanda

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Speaker 1: Knox and so we really connected. And it's interesting because

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Speaker 1: I do sort of music and justice. You do film

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Speaker 1: music injustice. And the thing that you've been known for

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Speaker 1: was your movie about the West, Memphis three, because it

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Speaker 1: was such an important not only such an important documentary,

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Speaker 1: but also such an important moment in the changing of

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Speaker 1: the perception of the American public and the worldwide public

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Speaker 1: as to how these things happen. And I'm interested to

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Speaker 1: know how did you because you know, you and I

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Speaker 1: both were in criminal justice reform before it was sort

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Speaker 1: of a thing, right, I mean, we were early adopters,

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Speaker 1: and I like to say we were in before it

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Speaker 1: was cool, but that sounds ridiculous, but anyway, true. Listen,

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Speaker 1: I'm glad it's cool because we need more and more people.

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Speaker 5: We didn't have enough storytellers shining a light on injustice

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Speaker 5: and activists trying to change this miserable system we have.

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Speaker 1: No we need an army. And so you made this

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Speaker 1: remarkable Paradise Lost trilogy that I'm holding in my hand

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Speaker 1: right now, which which told the story of the three kids.

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Speaker 1: And they were kids. They were teenagers, Damien Eccles, Jason Baldwin,

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Speaker 1: and Jesse Miskally, who were persecuted, prosecuted, arrested, tried, convicted

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Speaker 1: for one of the most gruesome and notorious triple murders

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Speaker 1: in the history of the world. Yeah, from the three

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Speaker 1: eight year old boys that went missing in West Memphis, Arkansas,

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Speaker 1: out riding their bikes and turned up in a riverbank, tortured,

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Speaker 1: brutally assaulted, sexually mutilated, and of course dead. And how

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Speaker 1: did it come to be that? And we'll get into

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Speaker 1: how the wrongful conviction happened, but how did you go

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Speaker 1: from being a filmmaker to being this guy? And how

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Speaker 1: were you made aware of this case and how did

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Speaker 1: you get involved? And boy, it's a good thing you did,

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Speaker 1: or Damien would have been executed by now.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, it's amazing and thank you for all that.

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Speaker 5: That's very kind of you to say, because you've also

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Speaker 5: done amazing work, which I appreciate. You know, my first film,

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Speaker 5: which I should say, Paradise Lost and Brothers Keeper were

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Speaker 5: made with Bruce Sinofsky, who recently passed away. You know,

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Speaker 5: so if I revert to the eyes, I always mean we.

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Speaker 5: But you know, we had made Brothers Keeper, which there

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Speaker 5: was no sense of social justice behind the making of

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Speaker 5: that movie. That was purely an aesthetic exercise to push

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Speaker 5: the documentary form a little further. You know, there was

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Speaker 5: a handful of filmmakers in the late eighties early nineties

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Speaker 5: that were looking to expand what it means to be

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Speaker 5: a documentary. Errol Morris did it with thin blue line.

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Speaker 5: But his contribution, besides the wrongful conviction aspect, was you know,

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Speaker 5: pushing recreations to a whole new level. Michael Moore was

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Speaker 5: pushing documentary by you know, the filmmaker as on camera curmudgeon,

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Speaker 5: you know, crusading for a social cause. That was new.

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Speaker 5: Morgan Spurlock then picked up that kind of thread in others.

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Speaker 5: What we were trying to do with Brothers Keeper was

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Speaker 5: simply by using a murder trial because it has perfect

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Speaker 5: dramatic structure, to take the documentary and create a just

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Speaker 5: a film that feels like a narrative film because of

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Speaker 5: how it shot, how it's edited, how it looks, how

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Speaker 5: it's structured, and to push the documentary form. I had

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Speaker 5: no interest in social justice, no interest in wrongful I

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Speaker 5: didn't even know wrongful convictions took place back then. I

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Speaker 5: was very naive about the justice system. And Brother's Keeper

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Speaker 5: was very successful. And so Sheila Evans from HBO came

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Speaker 5: a calling. You know, the she was until very recently

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Speaker 5: the head of documentaries at HBO for three decades. And

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Speaker 5: if I had to pick one person responsible for expanding

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Speaker 5: the form to what it is today, Sheila would be

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Speaker 5: that woman, but she also likes salacious material, and so

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Speaker 5: she read this story about three devil worshiping teens who

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Speaker 5: were just been arrested for these horrible crimes, and she

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Speaker 5: wanted a satanic kids killing kids movie because it seemed

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Speaker 5: like that was the case. So one week after the

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Speaker 5: arrests of the three. Of course, they weren't called the

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Speaker 5: West Memphis Three back then, they were these rotten teenagers

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Speaker 5: accused of these horrible crimes. We went down to West Memphis,

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Speaker 5: Arkansas in June of ninety three, thinking we were making

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Speaker 5: a film about kids killing kids. All the press was

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Speaker 5: saying they were guilty Jesse miss Kelly's confession without any context.

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Speaker 5: The multiple statements over time were reduced to a digestible

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Speaker 5: paragraph without context, published in the local paper. So we

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Speaker 5: thought there was a confession. You know, the prosecution and

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Speaker 5: the police were saying at press conferences on a scale

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Speaker 5: of one to ten, this is an eleven. I was

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Speaker 5: going down as a filmmaker, coming off of a really

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Speaker 5: great experience on my first film of pushing the form

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Speaker 5: of documentary, but no idea of social justice.

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Speaker 1: We go down.

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Speaker 5: We embed with the families of the victims, mainly the

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Speaker 5: trial is still seven months away. For the first three

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Speaker 5: months of the project, we really spent time with the

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Speaker 5: families of the victims, and of course they hated these

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Speaker 5: guys and thought they were, you know, the devil, and

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Speaker 5: we had no reason to believe otherwise.

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Speaker 1: On season seven of Wrongful Conviction, on the fifth episode,

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Speaker 1: I interviewed Damien eccles. Here's an excerpt. You were an outcast, right,

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Speaker 1: and there were these very small minded people around who

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Speaker 1: sort of came to this instinctual call it conclusion that

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Speaker 1: it must be the weird kid, right, it must be

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Speaker 1: the kid that wears black and listens to heavy metal.

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Speaker 1: And this was during the Satanic Panic as well. Right

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Speaker 1: back then, for those of you who are old enough

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Speaker 1: to remember, in the early nineties, there was this very

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Speaker 1: strange thing that was going on in America with rumors

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Speaker 1: of Satanic cults and stuff like that. None of them

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Speaker 1: turned out to be true. But that's beside the point.

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Speaker 4: So what happened for me my entire life, The thing

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Speaker 4: that has been most important to me, that I love

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Speaker 4: the most, that my life always sort of revolved around,

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Speaker 4: was Western hermeticism ceremonial magic. All the way back from

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Speaker 4: when I was a child, But I lived in an

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Speaker 4: incredibly right wing fundamentalist town where I mean there were

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Speaker 4: places in this town where you come to a four

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Speaker 4: corner step and on all four corners of the street

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Speaker 4: will be churches.

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Speaker 1: It was like Starbucks.

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Speaker 4: Now, yeah, that's exactly what it was like. And if

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Speaker 4: you didn't belong to, you know, one of these mainstream

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Speaker 4: for that area, mainstream fundamentalist religions, you were automatically viewed

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Speaker 4: as suspicious. You were Satanic. That's what they thought. And

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Speaker 4: it didn't matter if you were a Buddhist or a

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Speaker 4: Hindu or something like that. You're still satanic. You just

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Speaker 4: don't know you're a Satanist. You're just being you know,

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Speaker 4: tricked by the devil into thinking there's some other religion.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 4: The fact that I actually did love ceremonial magic, and

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Speaker 4: that's been one of their things that you know, they

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Speaker 4: harp on forever that that is Satanism. So that was

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Speaker 4: a huge part of what made them focus on me

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Speaker 4: as well. You know, that was what they thought made

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Speaker 4: me a freak. They think, automatically, you're a Satanist. It

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Speaker 4: would take a Satanist to commit a crime like this.

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Speaker 4: Stick all those things together, and they didn't even look

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Speaker 4: for anybody or anything else.

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Speaker 1: So in this case, they focused on you. And then

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Speaker 1: they had to find a way to get to you,

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Speaker 1: right because there was no evidence connecting you no, So

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Speaker 1: they found a way, and that way was Jesse Miskeally exactly.

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Speaker 1: So they originally sort of tricked him into confessing and

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Speaker 1: he immediately recanted after he confessed.

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Speaker 4: Of somewhere between seventy and seventy two, and they interrogated him.

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Speaker 4: I can't remember exactly how many hours it was, it

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Speaker 4: was something like between twelve and fourteen hours. And they're

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Speaker 4: tilling this guy who has an IQ that's way way

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Speaker 4: below normal. They're telling him things like, you know, just

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Speaker 4: tell us what we want to know and we'll let

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Speaker 4: you go home. So they finally get this guy to confess,

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Speaker 4: and he can't get anything about the crime scene right

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Speaker 4: because he wasn't actually there, so he didn't know anything.

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Speaker 4: They didn't care. The only thing they cared about was

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Speaker 4: the fact that they got him to say yes.

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Speaker 1: And we also know, Damian, that people who are most

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Speaker 1: susceptible to this are adolescents. We now know that the

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Speaker 1: human brain isn't fully formed until you're twenty five. He

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Speaker 1: was sixteen, right seventeen, and with his low IQ, he

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Speaker 1: was totally outmatched, overwhelmed, and probably after twelve to fourteen

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Speaker 1: hours he would have confessed, do you know anything killing

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Speaker 1: Abraham Lincoln? Exactly? I mean just to go home? So

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Speaker 1: he implicated you and Jason. So Jason was sort of

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Speaker 1: your one and best and pretty much only friend at

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Speaker 1: the time, rightly, And he was just physical appearances, he

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Speaker 1: didn't have the same stigma that you did, right. He

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Speaker 1: was sort of just an average looking kid, very young looking,

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Speaker 1: must have weighed a hundred pounds or less. Didn't look

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Speaker 1: like a killer, right, But to them you did, exactly.

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Speaker 1: And he got caught up in all.

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Speaker 4: Of this too, yep, just because he knew me, right.

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Speaker 1: Unbelievable. On season two of Wrongful Conviction, Episode eight, I

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Speaker 1: interviewed Jason Baldwin. Here's what he had to say.

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Speaker 6: And so when the police came, Honestly, it didn't really

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Speaker 6: scare me or alarm me, because I figured they were

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Speaker 6: going everywhere. I figured it was door to door, you know,

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Speaker 6: that they were talking to everybody they could, you know,

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Speaker 6: and to me that made sense, you know, that was logical.

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Speaker 6: But what I didn't know that they were targeting us.

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Speaker 1: So now everything goes completely haywire and you guys get arrested.

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Speaker 6: Correct, They mugshot in me, but when they fingerprinted me,

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Speaker 6: they didn't stop there. They took a fingerprint, they took

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Speaker 6: an entire hand impression. They took my entire foot prints, right,

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Speaker 6: and then they took me to the hospital and they

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Speaker 6: took hair samples, they took saliva samples, they took blood samples.

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Speaker 6: When they were taking these samples from me, it gave

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Speaker 6: me hope because I thought, Okay, whoever committed this crime,

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Speaker 6: they've left something for the police to compare my samples to, right,

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Speaker 6: And so that's where my hope was. And now at

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Speaker 6: this point, I had already been engaged with the police,

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Speaker 6: and they had asked me, you know, questions and stuff,

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Speaker 6: and I told them where I was at, and they

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Speaker 6: absolutely refused the truth. They kept telling me, no, we've

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Speaker 6: got another story. Your friend has told us that you

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Speaker 6: have done this and that what you're telling us is

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Speaker 6: not true. I'm like, well, who is this friend? And

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Speaker 6: they refused to tell me. The boys' bodies were found

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Speaker 6: May sixth, We were arrested. Jesse Muskelli gave the false

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Speaker 6: confession on June third, so what many people have not

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Speaker 6: really noticed it. On May the fifteenth, just a couple

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Speaker 6: of weeks after the boys' bodies are found, Jesse went

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Speaker 6: to the police with another friend because there was a

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Speaker 6: tip line and a reward offered out for any information

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Speaker 6: on who may have committed this crime. Now, Jesse did

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Speaker 6: not know who committed his crime, but he wanted the

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Speaker 6: reward money. He was imagining the brand new truck he

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Speaker 6: could buy his father and things like that. So him

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Speaker 6: and another kid out of his trailer park went to

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Speaker 6: the police and said, there's this suspicious guy in the

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Speaker 6: town that you know, you need to check out. And

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Speaker 6: I don't know exactly what all he told them about

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Speaker 6: this guy or whatever, but they ended up telling him, Jesse,

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Speaker 6: you need to come back with a more believable story

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Speaker 6: than that. Right, a few weeks go by, now they're

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Speaker 6: saying they've got that believable story when he gives the

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Speaker 6: false confession against Damian and me.

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Speaker 5: Then we finally negotiated access. They were all in county

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Speaker 5: jail awaiting trial, and somehow we taught you know, documentary

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Speaker 5: was a little more naive in those days in terms

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Speaker 5: of people's perceptions, and so we were able. I mean,

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Speaker 5: one of the amazing things about Paradise Loss is just

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Speaker 5: where we stuck our camera. I mean, we got tremendous access,

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Speaker 5: which I don't think we'd ever get today, luckily for

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Speaker 5: all involved. But we finally negotiated access to the West

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Speaker 5: Memphis three and again they weren't called that then, and

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Speaker 5: we did our first series of interviews, and I think

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Speaker 5: I'm sitting down with killers, you know, horrible kids, wanting

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Speaker 5: to understand how three teens could be so disaffected from

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Speaker 5: life that they would they would do this horrible thing.

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Speaker 5: There were some killings in the UK on railroad tracks

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Speaker 5: just a few years before, you know, the Jamie Bolger

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Speaker 5: case that actually I had tried to get access to

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Speaker 5: and make a film about. So my head is kids

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Speaker 5: killing kids, it's a trend, Let's make a film about it.

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Speaker 5: Of course, the late eighties was the whole Satanic panic

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Speaker 5: and satanic hysteria. I was a young filmmaker and you know,

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Speaker 5: didn't have any reason to think that wasn't necessarily true.

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Speaker 5: So I went into this project. In the great irony

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Speaker 5: is that, you know, two decades and three films later,

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Speaker 5: this crusade to get these guys out started off as

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Speaker 5: let's make a film about these rotten punks. So we

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Speaker 5: sit down, we do our first series of interviews. Honestly,

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Speaker 5: Damien was a little hard to read. I look back now,

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Speaker 5: Obviously he was in shock. He didn't believe he would

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Speaker 5: actually be convicted. Not to be judgmental, I mean, Damien's

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Speaker 5: a hero to me, who's gone through the most amazing journey,

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Speaker 5: But that first interview I couldn't quite tell with him.

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Speaker 5: But the person who really just whatever sense of tapping

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Speaker 5: into something that I had at the time, it was

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Speaker 5: talking to Jason Baldwin, where I just said, this doesn't

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Speaker 5: add up four months before the trial, three months into

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Speaker 5: being embedded in West Memphis, Arkansas, because we spent literally

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Speaker 5: seven months camping out there before the trial started. And

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Speaker 5: it's not like a light bulb went off and I said,

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Speaker 5: oh my god, they're innocent. But something didn't seem right.

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Speaker 5: And so I remember calling Sheila Evans, who, again, to

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Speaker 5: her credit, she's an amazing catalyst for what documentary has become,

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Speaker 5: but she also likes, you know, salacious subject matter, and

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Speaker 5: she had sent me down, or sent us down to

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Speaker 5: make a film about teen satanic killers. So I remember

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Speaker 5: picking up the phone calling her to let her know

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Speaker 5: that something. You know, I'm not sure these guys are guilty,

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Speaker 5: and I'm not sure the film is what you think

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Speaker 5: it's going to be a little trepidacious that she was

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Speaker 5: going to cancel the project, but I felt I had

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Speaker 5: to tell her. You know, we're like four months in

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Speaker 5: and we've gathered enough information that these kids seem like

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Speaker 5: they're the wrong guys had been picked up. I also

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Speaker 5: created this incredible moral ambiguity because we had convinced the

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Speaker 5: parents of the victims that we were here to tell

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Speaker 5: their story, and they were utterly convinced of their guilt.

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Speaker 5: But I called Sheila, and to her credit, she said, oh,

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Speaker 5: that sounds even more interesting. Stick with it, because she

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Speaker 5: couldn't pulled the plug.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 5: And it's the number one lesson. I mean, I'm not

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Speaker 5: sure if there are filmmakers in your audience or whatever,

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Speaker 5: but my number one lesson that I tell people about

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Speaker 5: filmmaking is never, particularly in documentary, never lock into the

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Speaker 5: preconceived idea of what you think your film is about,

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Speaker 5: because you'll miss the story. If we had locked into

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Speaker 5: teen Satan killers, and hadn't opened our eyes to the

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Speaker 5: real story, we might have missed the story. But I

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Speaker 5: never imagined that it would actually ever get to trial

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Speaker 5: because I had faith in the justice system. I never

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Speaker 5: imagined that evidence such as Metallica lyrics or Stephen King

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Speaker 5: novels would be presented in a court of law in

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Speaker 5: the United States of America as the main evidence, and

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Speaker 5: that somebody could be convicted on literally no forensic evidence,

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Speaker 5: no blood at the crime scene. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 5: you know the details of this case, and.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, but it's worth refreshing that we're.

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Speaker 4: At the police station. The only thing. Every so often

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Speaker 4: one of the cops would come in and say, are

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Speaker 4: you ready to make your confession? Yet I would just

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Speaker 4: stand there and look at them.

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Speaker 1: They would leave.

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Speaker 4: I stood there all night long until the next day

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Speaker 4: they got me and took me into a courtroom. They

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Speaker 4: tell me, you know, somebody's already confessed to this crime.

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Speaker 4: They've implicated you. They're saying you were the ring leader

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Speaker 4: of this. So now what you need to do is

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Speaker 4: confess to this and say no, you weren't the ring

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Speaker 4: leader they were. Try to put the blame back on

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Speaker 4: them or you're gonna die because of this. I can't

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Speaker 4: even figure out who the hell they're talking about, because

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Speaker 4: I've only got one friend in the entire world, and

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Speaker 4: that was Jason Baldwin. I knew it wasn't him because

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Speaker 4: he was with me, and I knew he didn't do it.

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Speaker 4: I knew he wasn't going to confess to something he

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Speaker 4: hadn't done. So I didn't realize who it even was

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Speaker 4: that had confessed until the next day. Whenever they take

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Speaker 4: me into the courtroom, they say who it is, and

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Speaker 4: they ask, you know, how do you plead all this

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Speaker 4: sort of thing. They refuse to even read the confession

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Speaker 4: in the courtroom. They asked me, did I want it read?

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Speaker 4: I said yes, and they wouldn't read it even after

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Speaker 4: they asked me and I said yes. Instead, they take

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Speaker 4: me out of the courtroom into a janitor's closet with

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Speaker 4: mops and brooms. They give me a transcript, a type

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Speaker 4: transcript of this confession. When I started reading it, it's

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Speaker 4: immediately obvious why they didn't want this thing or read

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Speaker 4: in court. It made no sense whatsoever. You know, you're

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Speaker 4: talking about this story that's like a Frankenstein patchwork thing

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Speaker 4: that they've sewed together out of many statements made by

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Speaker 4: somebody with an IQ of between seventy and seventy two.

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Speaker 4: And what they would do is when he would confess

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Speaker 4: to something and wouldn't get anything right, they would come

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Speaker 4: back into the room and say, well, do you think

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Speaker 4: maybe this could have happened? Or I mean, even more

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Speaker 4: blatantly obvious. The first time they asked him when did

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Speaker 4: the murders happen? And he says something like eight o'clock

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Speaker 4: in the morning. Well, they knew that wasn't true because

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Speaker 4: all three of the kids were in school. So gradually

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Speaker 4: what they did was shape this thing to make it

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Speaker 4: what they wanted it to be. That's why they didn't

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Speaker 4: want it read in court.

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Speaker 1: No, and they ignored obvious signs that pointed to at

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Speaker 1: least one, arguably up to three other individuals. Yes, including

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Speaker 1: there was a local restaurant, was it Bojangles or something?

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Speaker 1: Was it Bojangles where the manager called the cops that

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Speaker 1: night and said there was a guy covered in mud

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Speaker 1: and blood that stumbled into the fast food place and

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Speaker 1: went into the bathroom. And to their credit, the manager

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Speaker 1: called up and a police officer came, but didn't investigate,

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Speaker 1: and they ultimately collected evidence from that bathroom that he

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Speaker 1: went into, which there was blood all over the place

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Speaker 1: and mud, and they lost it. Yes, and there again

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Speaker 1: were obvious signs. I mean the one I just talked about,

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Speaker 1: the various signs pointing to the stepfather of one of

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Speaker 1: the boys. I mean, this one kind of came with instructions,

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Speaker 1: and I know that it's difficult. I'm not an anarchist.

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Speaker 1: I believe we do need a system of law and order.

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Speaker 1: I think there are a lot of very good police

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Speaker 1: and judges and prosecutors out there. But in this case,

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Speaker 1: it's a small town, high profile, complicated crime. Because the

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Speaker 1: crime scene itself was a muddy riverbed, not the easiest

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Speaker 1: place to collect evidence. It seemed to have been scrubbed

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Speaker 1: to some degree. And then all the pressure you ran

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Speaker 1: into the perfect storm.

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Speaker 4: They put me in another sale where I would stay

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Speaker 4: for almost the next year while I waited to go

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Speaker 4: to trial. When we do go to trial, the evidence

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Speaker 4: that they present again us as things like Stephen King books,

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Speaker 4: the fact that we owned Metallica T shirts and albums,

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Speaker 4: posters that were hanging on our walls, you know, things

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Speaker 4: that were from like skateboarding magazines, ceremonial magic books. This

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Speaker 4: is the evidence they had. The prosecutors tell the jury

401
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Speaker 4: that these things are not only evidence that were guilty,

402
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Speaker 4: but they're evidence that I don't even have a soul,

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Speaker 4: that this is how evil I am.

404
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Speaker 6: I was totally surprised when I went to trial and

405
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Speaker 6: instead of the narration of the story revolving around evidence,

406
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Speaker 6: the prosecutor John Fogerman and Brenton Davis were saying things

407
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Speaker 6: like the crime scene was completely clean, there was absolutely

408
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Speaker 6: no evidence, no physical evidence left behind, and this, in

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Speaker 6: fact is evidence of satanic cult ritual activity.

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Speaker 1: Because the devil fringed up the crime scene. Basically, when

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Speaker 1: they put that guy in the stand who was testifying

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Speaker 1: as an expert on Satanism and witchcraft and all, and

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Speaker 1: the defense attorney quite rightly said to him, where did

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Speaker 1: you get certified at this? And it turned out he

415
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Speaker 1: had spent like an hour of doing some online something

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Speaker 1: or whatever. It was ridicted. It was laughable, right, The

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Speaker 1: fact that he was calling himself an expert was laughable.

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Speaker 1: And that's one thing that I was like, well, the

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Speaker 1: jury's got to hear that. And the other thing was

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Speaker 1: when they had the doctor on the stand, right, it

421
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Speaker 1: was like an orthopedic surgeon or something, and they were

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Speaker 1: asking him about the way that the one boy had

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Speaker 1: been mutilated, right, and we had the skin cut off

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Speaker 1: his penis. I mean, he's really pretty disgusting even thinking

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Speaker 1: about it now.

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Speaker 6: We found out later was animals had actually started eating

427
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Speaker 6: their bodies in the water that they were submerging. And

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Speaker 6: so when the police pulled Jesse into the police station

429
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Speaker 6: and they laid out the photos of the bodies, they

430
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Speaker 6: had him make up a story for all the visible wounds.

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Speaker 6: The calls and manner of the wounds were unknown. They

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Speaker 6: didn't know that all these wounds were animal predation.

433
00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:50,240
Speaker 1: If you remember when the jury went out, what did

434
00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:51,679
Speaker 1: you think was going to happen?

435
00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:54,440
Speaker 6: I sincerely believed that we would go home, they would

436
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:57,000
Speaker 6: find us not guilty, that they would be able to

437
00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:01,600
Speaker 6: totally ignore all the flaming prejudicial stuff that the prosecution

438
00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,360
Speaker 6: was bringing up about Satanism and everything, and look at

439
00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:08,159
Speaker 6: the case for what it was and follow the evidence.

440
00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:10,920
Speaker 6: So told all your life that the purpose of the

441
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,280
Speaker 6: judicial system is to find the truth, when really it's

442
00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:15,240
Speaker 6: to get a conviction.

443
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:20,000
Speaker 4: They came back in they sentenced me to death three times.

444
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:23,280
Speaker 4: They sentenced me to die by lethal injection three times.

445
00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:27,480
Speaker 4: They sentenced Jason to life in prison without parole. The

446
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:30,800
Speaker 4: other guy they sentenced to life plus forty years. They

447
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:35,320
Speaker 4: immediately take me from the courtroom to death Row, where

448
00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:38,040
Speaker 4: I would not see Jason again. I saw him maybe

449
00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:44,480
Speaker 4: twelve fifteen years later, for maybe twenty to thirty seconds.

450
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:48,040
Speaker 4: They used to bring other prisoners in to clean the barracks,

451
00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:49,760
Speaker 4: and he was one of the prisoners they brought in

452
00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,120
Speaker 4: one day to clean death Row. So he comes by

453
00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:55,520
Speaker 4: my cell, mopping and sweeping. That was the first contact

454
00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:57,760
Speaker 4: I'd had with him in like fifteen years by that point.

455
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:04,040
Speaker 1: It's truly mind boggling the whole thing, even by our standards,

456
00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:07,560
Speaker 1: being entrenched in this work, you know, and you hear

457
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:11,119
Speaker 1: one fucked up story after another, but this one takes

458
00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:13,520
Speaker 1: the King go. Yeah, you know. I talk a lot

459
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:17,800
Speaker 1: about the idea that when we willfully or accidentally you

460
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:21,479
Speaker 1: want to call it mistakenly, prosecute the wrong person and

461
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,720
Speaker 1: convict them, by definition, we stop looking for the right

462
00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:28,600
Speaker 1: person exactly. And in this case, it sure seems like

463
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 1: the prosecutors must have known that these guys didn't do it.

464
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:33,800
Speaker 1: At some point they realized that they had the wrong guys.

465
00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:35,760
Speaker 1: Maybe it was around the time you did, maybe it

466
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,920
Speaker 1: was sooner, maybe it was later. But then you're left with,

467
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:43,679
Speaker 1: wait a minute, So, whoever this sick fuck is that

468
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:46,720
Speaker 1: did this terrible or whoever these people are that did this,

469
00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,040
Speaker 1: they're amongst us. Yeah.

470
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:53,159
Speaker 5: Well, first of all, I do believe that during the

471
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 5: trial and through the conviction, the authorities felt they had

472
00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,159
Speaker 5: the right guy. And the reason that's scary is because

473
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,160
Speaker 5: of the utter and competence and the ability to fall

474
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:06,160
Speaker 5: victim to confirmation bias, to all sorts of problems within

475
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 5: our system. I actually think that they felt they had

476
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:13,200
Speaker 5: the right people. What I find evil, the real evil

477
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,639
Speaker 5: in this case because a lot of that initial false

478
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:21,920
Speaker 5: conviction I attribute to human error, which is scary in

479
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 5: some way scarier than a conspiracy. But it's the post

480
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 5: conviction period where it became quite clear I think to

481
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:33,119
Speaker 5: everybody involved that these guys were innocent, and for people

482
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,879
Speaker 5: to hang on to their jobs, for people to not

483
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 5: question things, you know, for the same judge Judge Burnett,

484
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:43,160
Speaker 5: who presided over the original trial, to be the post

485
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 5: conviction appellate judge ruling whether he had reversible error in

486
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,159
Speaker 5: the original is absurd, and that's what the way it

487
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 5: was for over a decade on that case. So the

488
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 5: real evil in this case is the post conviction period

489
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,400
Speaker 5: where people cared more about their jobs. And you see

490
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 5: that all the time. It's why there shouldn't be prosecutorial

491
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 5: immunity and all sorts of other issues. But just getting

492
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 5: back to my origin story, you know, in covering this story,

493
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:12,320
Speaker 5: I just still I didn't have the gene that I

494
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 5: thought film could be used for social good until the

495
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,919
Speaker 5: final moments of Paradise Lost, which are the final moments

496
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 5: of the trial where oh my god, they really have

497
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,159
Speaker 5: convicted this guy on no evidence. And you see in

498
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,040
Speaker 5: Paradise Laws in the movie, Jason has already been convicted

499
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 5: halfway through the movie, and then the second half of

500
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 5: the movie is focusing on Jason and Damien, and you

501
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 5: see Damian being chained up and led off to death row.

502
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 5: I mean we were in the room with him as

503
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:37,920
Speaker 5: he was being chained off and led off to death row,

504
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,240
Speaker 5: and Jason was being led off to life without parole

505
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 5: sentences and they get escorted out of the room and

506
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 5: Bruce and I look at each other like, oh my god,

507
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 5: I cannot believe what we just witnessed. And that's when

508
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,280
Speaker 5: we vowed to do everything we could. And when the

509
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 5: gene or the light bulb went off in my head

510
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,639
Speaker 5: where I realized that, yes, I'm sitting on all this

511
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 5: footage that can help, and that film I think can

512
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,960
Speaker 5: be used for shining a light. And so I feel

513
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 5: like I stumbled on to the criminal justice system as

514
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,679
Speaker 5: a place to place my focus. But seeing how easy

515
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,399
Speaker 5: it is for people to make mistakes, seeing how easy

516
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 5: it is for somebody to be sent to death, this

517
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,719
Speaker 5: became my calling when I saw that zero evidence and

518
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 5: Stephen King novels and Metallica lyrics can put you on

519
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 5: death row.

520
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,359
Speaker 1: Right, Well, if that's the case, I mean when you

521
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:27,119
Speaker 1: add up all the Stephen King novels and all the

522
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:29,639
Speaker 1: Batallica records that would sold out, means there's tens of

523
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 1: millions of serial killers out there that we should all

524
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 1: be very scared crazy.

525
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 5: And you know, he did have an affinity for Aleister

526
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 5: Crowley and that was also introduced. But still, this is

527
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,919
Speaker 5: not forensic evidence. You know, there was no blood at

528
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,719
Speaker 5: the crime scene, no forensic evidence. I mean, it's just

529
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,880
Speaker 5: this is the worst case probably I've studied, you know,

530
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:51,160
Speaker 5: in all these years.

531
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 1: So your film ultimately led to an amazing outpouring of

532
00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 1: support from people all over the world, regular people as

533
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:05,440
Speaker 1: well as people at the very top echelons of society.

534
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:10,640
Speaker 1: Johnny Depp, Eddie Vedder, Natalie Mains, Peter Jackson, amazing amazing

535
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,920
Speaker 1: people who became like, not casually involved, but deeply involved.

536
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 1: And there's no separating that from the fact that it

537
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 1: was a direct result of your movie, which had to

538
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,679
Speaker 1: feel good. But then how did it feel when finally,

539
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 1: eighteen years later, these guys walked out of prison and

540
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 1: knowing the role that you played in that, right.

541
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,959
Speaker 5: Well, and a lot of people played roles in it, right,

542
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:35,919
Speaker 5: That's the thing I mean this. I hope this doesn't

543
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,439
Speaker 5: sound falsely humble. I'm very proud of the films, and

544
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:40,679
Speaker 5: I think the film's definitely played a role. And I

545
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 5: definitely think that we're the ones who said against all

546
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 5: the other media, because every night there was a news

547
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 5: report or story of these monstrous killers. It was so

548
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 5: prejudicing everything, so we were truly the only media saying

549
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 5: that they were innocent. I think the film attracted a

550
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,399
Speaker 5: lot of the attention, but it's the activism of tens

551
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 5: of thousands of people and the well known people that

552
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 5: got them out of prison. But that feels good. I mean,

553
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,920
Speaker 5: it's rare in one's career. You know, when you make documentaries,

554
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 5: you hope to affect people in some way. When you're

555
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 5: a storyteller in general, you want to affect people in

556
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:13,719
Speaker 5: some way, and to have that kind of tangible effect

557
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:17,399
Speaker 5: on the outcome of a case felt terrific, although I

558
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:21,679
Speaker 5: will say it was also very bittersweet because a it

559
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:25,679
Speaker 5: took way too long, you know, eighteen and a half years. Actually,

560
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 5: with some cases that's on the low end of things, sadly,

561
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 5: but still it took so long, and the attempts to

562
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,719
Speaker 5: deny DNA testing and the fact that the same judge

563
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 5: remained on the case during the whole post conviction is

564
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 5: just outrageous. And then the end result was the Alfred plea,

565
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 5: where you know, Damien was not well on death row

566
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 5: as we know, and you know, Jason had to really

567
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 5: debate whether he wanted to take the deal because he

568
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 5: wanted to keep fighting, and some evidence that Peter Jackson

569
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 5: paid for was coming out and very helpful, which of

570
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 5: course scared the prosecution, which is why they were even

571
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 5: willing to do the Alfred plea. Should we explain what

572
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 5: the Alfred plea is?

573
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, let me talk about it.

574
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 5: Go ahead, Well, the Alfred plea is basically where you

575
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 5: stand up in court. In this case, Damien and Jason

576
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 5: and Jesse acknowledged that the prosecution has enough evidence to convict,

577
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 5: but you maintain your innocence. You state that I am

578
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,719
Speaker 5: innocent of these charges, but I believe the state has

579
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 5: enough evidence that a conviction could occur, So I plead

580
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 5: guilty in exchange for time served. Is basically what happened.

581
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 5: So the death sentence was vacated and turned into a

582
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 5: first degree murder charge, and he was sentenced to life served,

583
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 5: which allowed him to go out of the prison, and

584
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 5: the life without parole sentences were vacated and turned into

585
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 5: time served. That's you know, you can understand why somebody

586
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 5: would accept that, especially if you're on death row. But

587
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 5: it's so cowardly on the part of the State of Arkansas.

588
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 5: Does anyone really believe that if the State of Arkansas

589
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 5: had in a bi belief that these were teen child

590
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 5: killers who sacrificed eight year olds to the devil in

591
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 5: a Satanic ritual that they would allow them to walk

592
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 5: free after eighteen years. Of course, not they know they're innocent,

593
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 5: but they want to protect themselves from accountability.

594
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 1: You know.

595
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 5: Some people have said, well, they want to also protect

596
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 5: themselves from being sued for wrongful conviction, which you know,

597
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 5: the average wrongful conviction case is worth a million dollars

598
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 5: a year times eighteen years times three defendants, that's fifty

599
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 5: four million dollars if I'm doing my math correctly or

600
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 5: something like that. But they could have even signed, you know,

601
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 5: a way that they won't sue for wrongful conviction. It's

602
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 5: all about accountability, and that's how these things happen. That's

603
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 5: why post conviction takes for so long. Nobody wants to

604
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 5: be accountable. And I think it's so cowardly and disturbing

605
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 5: that this is how these guys ended up free. I mean,

606
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 5: I took Jason to both the Berlin Film Festival with

607
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 5: Paradise Lost three and there's a great documentary festival in

608
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 5: Amsterdam called IFA National Documentary Festival of Amsterdam, and both

609
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 5: of those border crossings were fraught with delays and problems

610
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 5: because in the computer it's Jason bald With convicted child killer.

611
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 5: Jason wants to study law and become a lawyer. He

612
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:17,719
Speaker 5: can't do it because he's a convicted child killer. So

613
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 5: yesfl great that the movie had an impact on people,

614
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 5: and those people pushed and pushed until these guys were

615
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 5: let out. But sad that it's the alphad plea and

616
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 5: they're not fully exonerated.

617
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 1: The alpha plea is such a it's like a Sophie's

618
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 1: choice kind of thing. And we've had Oh god, I

619
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 1: don't know how many people on Ralph conviction who have

620
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 1: resorted to that. You know, they have so much leverage.

621
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 1: When you're looking at the amount of time it will

622
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 1: take to go back for another trial, Yeah, you're going

623
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 1: to spend that time in prison awaiting that trial. If

624
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 1: you're trying to with yourself in the shoes of someone

625
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 1: who's face with that choice, if you know that you've

626
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 1: already been framed once or gotten you know, convict, there's

627
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 1: something he didn't do. However, it got to that once

628
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 1: you would be hard pressed to risk the rest of

629
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 1: your life in the system that has already yea.

630
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 5: Damien was truly unhealthy and being abused by guards and

631
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 5: that's ultimately why I think they're all heroes to me.

632
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 5: But Jason Baldwin acted very heroically because he was ready

633
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 5: to stay and fight and clear his name. But everyone

634
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 5: felt that Damien's health was in such a state that

635
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 5: to wait any longer might be detrimental, so he made

636
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 5: that decision.

637
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 1: That sentence. Jason, of all the eighty something episodes we've recorded, now,

638
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 1: his was really like it was difficult to even hear

639
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 1: the stories that he told. He's such an amazingly gentle,

640
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 1: you know, soul, and you know he was what ninety

641
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 1: hundred pounds back then, kid.

642
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 5: Actually did well in school, And you're right, that was

643
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 5: the vibe he was giving off. Was this sweet little

644
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 5: boy talking to me about fishing and what he likes

645
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 5: to do when he's not at school, and drawing. He

646
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 5: was an avid drawer. And while he's talking to me,

647
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 5: I'm looking at his tiny little wrists, because if you

648
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 5: believe the prosecution story, it's Baldwin who wielded the serrated

649
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 5: hunting knife that castrated the buyer's boy. And I'm talking

650
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 5: to this sweet little kid and staring at his wrist

651
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 5: and trying to imagine that this guy knifed these kids

652
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 5: in the way that it was alleged, and I just

653
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 5: found it incredible.

654
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 1: Jason Baldwin on the show. It was an experience I'll

655
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 1: never forget when this all came down. You were in

656
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 1: tenth grade.

657
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:45,880
Speaker 6: Tenth grade.

658
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 1: Tenth grade. Let's just reflect on that for a second.

659
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 1: You're not even anywhere near being an adult in tenth grade.

660
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 1: So then you end up getting sent to maximum security prison.

661
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 6: Right when you first go to prison and you're not

662
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 6: going to death row, you go to what's called a

663
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,719
Speaker 6: diagnostic unit, and that's where they evaluate you mentally and

664
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 6: physically to determine what your parent unit in the department

665
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 6: corrections will be. Because they have a myriad of prisons

666
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:15,239
Speaker 6: on various different old slave plantations in the South, and

667
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:18,399
Speaker 6: each of them are different and in different ways by

668
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 6: age and your strength and things like that. And when

669
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 6: I went to diagnostics, they saw me like you saw

670
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 6: me as a small innocent kid, and a diagnostics they

671
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 6: were like, we've got to send you to one of

672
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:32,840
Speaker 6: two places, Jason, or you're not gonna make it. PC

673
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:37,319
Speaker 6: Protective Custody or what's called SPU Suicide Prevention Unit and

674
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 6: suicide Prevention Unit you will have your own cell. And

675
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:42,799
Speaker 6: you know, I looked at it like this. At the time,

676
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 6: we didn't have very many people on our side. In fact,

677
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 6: it was just us. And I'm thrust into this incredibly

678
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 6: impossible situation. And I was escorted everywhere I went in

679
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:56,800
Speaker 6: the prison, and so I'd see the people in SPU

680
00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 6: going to chow and they'd be doing the thorizine shot

681
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:03,280
Speaker 6: because they're so heavily medicated. And I had a fear

682
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,320
Speaker 6: that if I acquiesced and let them put me in SPU,

683
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 6: that they would forcefully medicate me and I would lose

684
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,640
Speaker 6: my mind and my ability to think and reason and

685
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 6: to fight. And so I said, no, I can't do that.

686
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 6: And as far as the PC protective custody, anybody knows

687
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 6: if you are saying you are so weak that you

688
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 6: need protection, that people are gonna see that and prey

689
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,759
Speaker 6: on you even more. And so I knew I had

690
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 6: to some way, some fashion stand on my own two

691
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 6: feet in there and earn everybody's respect from the inmates

692
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 6: and guards a light and they said, well, you not

693
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:43,279
Speaker 6: going to one of these places. We're gonna have to

694
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 6: send you to Barner. And at the time they would

695
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 6: just shift all these guys from the Little Tucker unit

696
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:52,279
Speaker 6: to Barner and they were destroying the place. They said,

697
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:57,920
Speaker 6: it was just chaos and destruction and just incredibly violent place,

698
00:35:58,200 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 6: and that's where they were going to have to send me.

699
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:02,359
Speaker 6: And I just told them that that's what you gotta do.

700
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:05,399
Speaker 6: You got to do it. And so they did eventually

701
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:08,759
Speaker 6: send me to Barner unit, and it was everything they

702
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:09,440
Speaker 6: said it was.

703
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:10,919
Speaker 1: How did you survive there?

704
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:12,960
Speaker 6: And you know, by the grace of God, you know,

705
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 6: as you said, I guess, I'll say I was incredibly luckily,

706
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:19,239
Speaker 6: but I was incredibly blessed to I went in there.

707
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 6: They opened up and mister Patten stepped out, and his

708
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 6: clerk stepped out, and mister Panton says, in May Bowlin,

709
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 6: I'm mister Patten, the classification officer. I'll be assigning you

710
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 6: to your housing unit. And this is my clerk, Mojo.

711
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 6: And they tell me you got to stand up for

712
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 6: yourself in here or these people will just will run

713
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 6: you over and turn you into a sex slave and

714
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 6: all these horrible things and make you pay money for

715
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 6: protection and stuff like that. And so they assign me

716
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 6: to seven barracks and seven barracks at the Barner unit

717
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:54,920
Speaker 6: is in Take barracks. I walk down the hall and

718
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:57,360
Speaker 6: as I'm walking, I'm walking next to this barracks and

719
00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 6: it's got bulletproof glass three stories high, and these guys

720
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:02,920
Speaker 6: are beating on it.

721
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 1: Right.

722
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:06,359
Speaker 6: It's plexiglasses, got chicken wire in it, and there are

723
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 6: sell bars on the inside of it going all the

724
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:11,279
Speaker 6: way up three stories. And I look and these guys

725
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 6: are literally climbing this thing. They are climbing it above

726
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 6: one Another're hanging on to the bars, looking at me,

727
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:22,359
Speaker 6: beating the glass and pointing at me. Because they've been

728
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:25,280
Speaker 6: watching the trial on TV and the hearings and stuff

729
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:28,399
Speaker 6: for an entire year. It's like a pep rally. Right,

730
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 6: They're finally going to have their hands on me, right.

731
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 6: And I get there and Sergeant Ivy's working the door

732
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:36,279
Speaker 6: and he tells me. He says, if you go in

733
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:38,919
Speaker 6: there and stand up for yourself, I got your back.

734
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:41,960
Speaker 6: If not, they got you. And I'm just holding the

735
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 6: only thing I have is a bible, a couple of

736
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 6: letters from a mom. That's it in a little paper bag.

737
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 6: And they opened the door and put me in there,

738
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 6: and next thing I know, somebody swings a fist at me.

739
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 6: I ducked that one. The next one catches me and

740
00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 6: I'm fighting. Immediately the door opens back up, there's may sprayed.

741
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 6: Sergeant Ivi's yanking people off of me. I'm on the

742
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 6: ground and he says, are you ready to go to PC?

743
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 1: Now?

744
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 6: Do you need to catch out? And the guys are hollering,

745
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 6: catch out, bitch, catch out, oh, all these horrible things,

746
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 6: you know, which catch out means to leave the barracks

747
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:21,439
Speaker 6: and to go and to protective custody. And like I said,

748
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 6: you know, I knew I needed to earn these people's

749
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 6: respect because I did not know how long I would

750
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:28,879
Speaker 6: be there. I know I'm innocent, but I don't know

751
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:30,880
Speaker 6: how long I'm going to be in this prison. And

752
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 6: so I tell them no leave me. And next thing

753
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:36,400
Speaker 6: I know, we go from the dayroom tier downstairs. The

754
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:39,240
Speaker 6: guys like push all the racks up against the wall.

755
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:42,799
Speaker 6: They circle around us, and I'm fighting this guy. And

756
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:44,920
Speaker 6: then I'm fighting this guy and there's people hitting me

757
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:48,239
Speaker 6: from behind. So it's kind of orderly and fair, but

758
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:50,720
Speaker 6: then again it's kind of not. And so I fight

759
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 6: the whole barracks that Friday. Everybody and then they call

760
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 6: shower call, and the barracks next door, eight bricks, They

761
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 6: call two barracks at a time to go to shower.

762
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 6: The shower holds one hundred people. And so when I

763
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 6: get there, I gotta fight all these guys from eight barracks.

764
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:10,439
Speaker 6: And so I fought all weekend. My whole face would

765
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 6: swollen up, my fists were swoll up, my body was beat.

766
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:17,520
Speaker 6: And so I do this all weekend. I get into

767
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:20,560
Speaker 6: fights in the chowhau, even like because there's even other

768
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:23,239
Speaker 6: people from other barracks is wanting to get to me

769
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 6: in the chow haw and stuff like that. Come Monday morning,

770
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 6: I'm barely even able to walk, you know, and like

771
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 6: the guys are like just pushing me and guiding me

772
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:36,399
Speaker 6: a bit and which way to go and stuff, because

773
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 6: I can't even see even less than I normally do

774
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:42,040
Speaker 6: because my eyes and stuff are all swollen up. And

775
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 6: I just remember thinking that whole weekend about this job

776
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 6: out in the fields, whole squad. There's gonna be sunshine,

777
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:51,880
Speaker 6: there's gonna be a dawn, and I'm gonna get to

778
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 6: witness that. I was just looking forward to that first dawn,

779
00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:59,320
Speaker 6: You know that that Morning Air, and so there was

780
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:01,640
Speaker 6: a part of me, no matter how bad it was,

781
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:04,120
Speaker 6: I was just looking forward to that first dawn. I'm like,

782
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 6: if I can make it to that, you know, if

783
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 6: I can make it to that, that's something good.

784
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 1: It's interesting. Fifteen twenty years ago, I was going around

785
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 1: to different studios in Hollywood and saying, we should do

786
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 1: a show that features these type of cases and shine

787
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:26,360
Speaker 1: a light on these injustices, and people were like, no,

788
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 1: nobody wants that, you know, And now it seems like

789
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 1: every other.

790
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:33,359
Speaker 5: Show you turn on I have several of them. Yeah,

791
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:36,359
Speaker 5: you do a wrong man on Stars. And I did

792
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:40,840
Speaker 5: a show for Discovery called Killing Richard Glossop, who another

793
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 5: horrible case that I wish people would pay more attention to.

794
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:44,400
Speaker 1: Richard Glossops.

795
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:47,279
Speaker 5: And on Oklahoma's Death Row, the status tried to kill

796
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:50,279
Speaker 5: him three times. The last time they tried to kill him,

797
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 5: the portal was in his arm and they were using

798
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,279
Speaker 5: the wrong execution drugs and the clock struck three, which

799
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 5: is the appointed killing hour, and the family on the

800
00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 5: outside thought the stay had not come as it had

801
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 5: several times before, crying and hugging, thinking that he had

802
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:06,640
Speaker 5: been killed, when in fact what was going on inside

803
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 5: the death room was an argument between the state's attorney

804
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 5: general and the head of prisons trying to figure out

805
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:13,560
Speaker 5: whether they should kill this guy because they had the

806
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 5: wrong execution drugs and that fracas, and it's the second

807
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:21,120
Speaker 5: time there was the wrong execution drugs were being used.

808
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:24,360
Speaker 5: There's you know, there's a moratorium on executions in Oklahoma,

809
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:26,800
Speaker 5: and that's the only thing that's keeping Richard Glossop alive,

810
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 5: as opposed to this bizarre story that the prosecution you know,

811
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:33,799
Speaker 5: has given as to why he deserves to be killed,

812
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 5: which is completely bogus.

813
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 1: The case of Richard Glossop came to my attention several

814
00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:41,759
Speaker 1: years ago, and I felt like I'd been kicked in

815
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:44,759
Speaker 1: the stomach. I mean, let's talk about him, because they

816
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 1: do need to bring more attention to it. Can you

817
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:49,719
Speaker 1: give us the capsule summary of this.

818
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:52,760
Speaker 5: There's not a long story to tell. It's Richard Glossip

819
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 5: was the manager of a kind of a sleazy motel

820
00:41:55,920 --> 00:42:03,239
Speaker 5: and he is accused of hiring the motel's janitor, who

821
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:05,880
Speaker 5: he had given a job to only a few months before,

822
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:08,759
Speaker 5: to kill the owner of the hotel so that he

823
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 5: could take it over. The whole story on its face

824
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:14,359
Speaker 5: when you pick it apart, is ridiculous. The guy who

825
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 5: actually did the killing is the junkie hotel janitor maintenance

826
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:21,760
Speaker 5: man named Justin Snead, and he was convicted of the murder,

827
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 5: but you know, was not sentenced to death. He cut

828
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 5: a deal, pointed a finger at his boss. There's zero evidence,

829
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:31,760
Speaker 5: zero corroboration. We did some forensic accounting or the defense

830
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:34,600
Speaker 5: attorney did some forensic accounting to show this idea of

831
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:41,320
Speaker 5: swindling and taking money is bogus. But conspiracy to murder

832
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 5: hiring somebody to do a murder as a capital offense,

833
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:46,840
Speaker 5: and these guys wanted that notch on their belt. I'm convinced.

834
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:49,400
Speaker 5: I mean, there's just if you look at the evidence,

835
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:51,799
Speaker 5: there is none. It's just one of these cases where

836
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:56,719
Speaker 5: it's so bizarre. And this guy has been on it's

837
00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:58,359
Speaker 5: been two years since I did the show. It's either

838
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:01,719
Speaker 5: thirty five days or thirty eight days prior to your execution.

839
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 5: Your moved from one terrible cell in death row to

840
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:09,640
Speaker 5: your final cell where you're placed on death watch, where

841
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 5: the lights are on twenty four seven. You now only

842
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 5: have one meal a day. You are sleeping on a

843
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:19,400
Speaker 5: thin half inch excuse for a mattress instead of a

844
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:22,319
Speaker 5: real cot, and they're just trying to wear you down.

845
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 5: And this poor guy has gone through this process three times.

846
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 5: He's had the portal placed in his arm awaiting the

847
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 5: lethal injection drugs. When they realized, oh, we have the

848
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:33,879
Speaker 5: wrong drugs. That's the only thing that has saved this guy.

849
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 5: We're two mistakes by the prison. The first attempt to

850
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:39,920
Speaker 5: kill him, there was a stay because a new witness

851
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:43,440
Speaker 5: came along and the government dismissed it as being relevant.

852
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:45,840
Speaker 5: But that was the first day. The other two stays,

853
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:49,279
Speaker 5: the last two stays were because of botched execution. And

854
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:52,239
Speaker 5: there's just no evidence tying this guy to the murder.

855
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 5: The convicted killer who confessed to doing it is serving

856
00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:59,239
Speaker 5: a life sentence, whereas the guy who allegedly hired him

857
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:02,440
Speaker 5: for which the proof, is on death row under the

858
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:05,840
Speaker 5: most miserable conditions, you know. And this is where, like,

859
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:11,319
Speaker 5: my big thing is prosecutorial immunity. You know, on the

860
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 5: one hand, it's been argued to me, well, prosecutors have

861
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 5: to be immune from their actions because you know, in

862
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:20,279
Speaker 5: many places prosecutors are underpaid. You know, you wouldn't get

863
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:23,120
Speaker 5: good prosecutors to do their job if they were fearful

864
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:25,880
Speaker 5: of immunity. I get that on a certain level. And

865
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:29,040
Speaker 5: there's lots of great prosecutors, and not everyone's a bad guy,

866
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:31,759
Speaker 5: and not every CoP's a bad cop. And I'm like, like,

867
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:35,399
Speaker 5: you can't paint people with a broad stroke. But there's

868
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:40,279
Speaker 5: got to be a happy medium where willful withholding of evidence.

869
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:44,440
Speaker 5: Prosecutors have got to be held accountable and a lot

870
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 5: of this shit would go away in my opinion. I mean,

871
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:51,359
Speaker 5: you know, Judge Janine Janine Piro, the Fox commentator, in

872
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 5: the case of Jeffrey Dskovic, she fought DNA testing for

873
00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:58,879
Speaker 5: a long time. You know, she went off to go

874
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 5: run for office, and then her successor, janetd Fiori, said,

875
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:04,880
Speaker 5: of course, we'll test the DNA. The DNA was tested

876
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:07,120
Speaker 5: and it immediately pointed to another person.

877
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 1: Season four of Romful Conviction, episode eight, Jeffrey Deskovic.

878
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:15,880
Speaker 7: And then the trial comes in. Just before the trial,

879
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 7: the results of the DNA test comes back from the

880
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:24,239
Speaker 7: FBI laboratory, which shows that the seamen found and the

881
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 7: victim didn't.

882
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:27,240
Speaker 1: Match me, right, because remember she was raped.

883
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:30,239
Speaker 7: She was raped, Yes, and by the way, the lieutenant

884
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 7: who oversaw everything in the letter that he penned to

885
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:38,280
Speaker 7: the FBI asking them to expedite the testing. He wrote

886
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:41,120
Speaker 7: in the letter that the DNA testing would either show

887
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:44,879
Speaker 7: my guilt or it would exonerate me. But when it

888
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:49,160
Speaker 7: came back and it didn't match me, my lawyer did

889
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:52,759
Speaker 7: try to get the indictment dismissed against me based on that,

890
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 7: but the judge denied that motion.

891
00:45:55,600 --> 00:46:01,040
Speaker 1: That alone seems so just incomprehensible to me. I mean,

892
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:04,160
Speaker 1: the judge is impartial, right, we know the prosecutor has

893
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:07,560
Speaker 1: an agenda, but the judge's impartial. Yeah, I don't know,

894
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:09,200
Speaker 1: I don't understand. I mean, I know that back then

895
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:11,880
Speaker 1: DNA wasn't it wasn't as well known.

896
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:14,359
Speaker 7: But to be clear, I mean, DNA started being used

897
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:17,320
Speaker 7: in the court system as early as nineteen eighty seven,

898
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:20,400
Speaker 7: and this we're on trial now in nineteen ninety, so

899
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:23,359
Speaker 7: it's been around for three years. So while not in

900
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:27,920
Speaker 7: currency like now, it is not exactly totally unknown.

901
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:31,800
Speaker 1: Right, and it's perfect I mean right, it's the bold standard. Yeah,

902
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:36,480
Speaker 1: so your DNA doesn't match. This is an inconvenient truth

903
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 1: for the authorities and the judge allows this this circus

904
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:45,840
Speaker 1: to go on. Meanwhile, let's spend a moment talking about

905
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:50,960
Speaker 1: the actual perpetrator. Yes, because every time, and I sound

906
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 1: like a broken record when I say this, but every

907
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:58,640
Speaker 1: time that somebody like you gets convicted wrongfully, the actual perpetrator,

908
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 1: they stop looking for him. Right, the case is closed,

909
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 1: And in this case, the consequences were very real.

910
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:09,120
Speaker 7: Yes, school teacher Patricia Morrison, who also had a couple

911
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:12,680
Speaker 7: of kids. She was from Peak Skill and she was

912
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 7: killed by the stained perpetrator, Stephen Cunningham. She was killed

913
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 7: three and a half years later as a result of

914
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:22,040
Speaker 7: Cunningham being left free on the street while I was

915
00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 7: doing time for his crime.

916
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:27,120
Speaker 1: Now you say, the real perpetrator, how do we know that?

917
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 7: Well, here, great, that's a great question. I'm so glad

918
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:35,279
Speaker 7: you asked. Because the DNA matched him, because he got

919
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:39,440
Speaker 7: caught for the second murder Patricia Morrison, which resulted in

920
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:42,120
Speaker 7: his being incarcerated and having to give up a DNA

921
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:45,359
Speaker 7: sample which was put into the data bank. And so

922
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 7: when I eventually got the further testing with the Innocence

923
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:55,719
Speaker 7: Projects help, it matched him. Then he subsequently confessed and

924
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 7: he played guilty.

925
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:58,480
Speaker 1: In court when did this happen?

926
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:01,799
Speaker 7: That happened and a half years after he killed a

927
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:02,719
Speaker 7: second victim.

928
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:08,319
Speaker 1: Wow, So Patricia Morrison today would be probably a lot

929
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:11,239
Speaker 1: sitting around with her grandchildren, you know, probably be a

930
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:13,799
Speaker 1: retired school teacher by now having a nice life. Her

931
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:16,160
Speaker 1: children would have grown up as they deserve too, as

932
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:19,080
Speaker 1: everyone deserves to with their mother. The rest of her

933
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:23,400
Speaker 1: family wouldn't have gone through this horrendous loss. None of

934
00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 1: it had to happen except for the fact that they

935
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:30,120
Speaker 1: went on this crazy witch hunt to convict you, Jeffrey Deskovic,

936
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:31,880
Speaker 1: of a crime that they knew you didn't commit.

937
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:37,759
Speaker 5: So he was exonerated, got millions of dollars from Westchester

938
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:40,840
Speaker 5: County and Putnam County, which the taxpayers should be livid

939
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:43,240
Speaker 5: about that. You know, this case was allowed to happen,

940
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 5: and the same thing in Damien's case. They were you know,

941
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:49,120
Speaker 5: the seven or eight years was spent with a guy

942
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:53,560
Speaker 5: on death row. Seven or eight years was spent fighting

943
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 5: DNA testing because of the finality of judgment concept in

944
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:01,200
Speaker 5: our legal system, which is absurd.

945
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:05,160
Speaker 4: Years later they do DNA testing, find out that the

946
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:07,080
Speaker 4: DNA does not match me or the other two guys.

947
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:09,960
Speaker 4: They convicted. To this day, they still have not run

948
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 4: that DNA through codis to see who it matches. They

949
00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:13,600
Speaker 4: refuse to do that.

950
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:17,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, which is so strange because in a case like this,

951
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:20,200
Speaker 1: especially in the small community, the people who are doing

952
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 1: investigating live in that community. By definition, when you have

953
00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 1: somebody out there who's capable of this sort of pure evil,

954
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:28,840
Speaker 1: you would think, if for no other reason than purely

955
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:31,239
Speaker 1: selfish reasons, you would want to get that person off

956
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 1: the street. But that's not what happened, and it happens

957
00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:39,520
Speaker 1: too frequently that these various factors combine to result in

958
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:40,920
Speaker 1: a tragic outcome.

959
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:44,480
Speaker 4: And what people don't realize also, you know, just most

960
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:47,320
Speaker 4: people's knowledge of the legal system comes from watching TV,

961
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:50,320
Speaker 4: and it fosters this idea that these people, these judges,

962
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:53,880
Speaker 4: these prosecutors, these attorney generals, that they have these positions

963
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:57,000
Speaker 4: because there's somehow moral people. They're good people who are

964
00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:00,440
Speaker 4: looking out for society. In actual fact, these are politicians,

965
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:04,239
Speaker 4: just like senators, just like congressmen. Their number one priority

966
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:06,759
Speaker 4: is winning that next election. So they are going to

967
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:10,400
Speaker 4: do for that next case exactly whatever the community is

968
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:12,640
Speaker 4: pressuring them to do. That's the way they're going to

969
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:14,600
Speaker 4: lean because they want to win the next election.

970
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:22,480
Speaker 5: The legal system should be about finding the truth and

971
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:25,120
Speaker 5: if there's reason to believe that somebody has a wrongful

972
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:28,600
Speaker 5: conviction claim, especially with the advent of DNA technology, which

973
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:30,839
Speaker 5: you know, that's a new that was a new thing.

974
00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:36,319
Speaker 5: The fact that a prosecutor can fight DNA testing like

975
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:38,439
Speaker 5: they did in Damien's case for eight or nine years,

976
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 5: like they did in Jeffrey Deskovic's case, which resulted in

977
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:45,120
Speaker 5: the death of another innocent human being, it's just outrageous.

978
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 1: You know. And that's true too in the Central Park

979
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:50,520
Speaker 1: five case, where Linda Fairstein prosecuted those five kids even

980
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:53,000
Speaker 1: though she knew she had the evidence, she knew they

981
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:55,760
Speaker 1: didn't do it, and they had every reason to suspect

982
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:58,279
Speaker 1: that Matthias Rays was the actual killer. Ye and then

983
00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 1: he went out and raped three other ways and killed

984
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:02,120
Speaker 1: one of them in front of her kids. I mean,

985
00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:04,799
Speaker 1: it's like, I mean, I'm getting the shills just thinking

986
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:07,360
Speaker 1: about it, Like that is so bad and we should

987
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:09,800
Speaker 1: all want that to end, right.

988
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:13,120
Speaker 5: I'm telling you, If some tougher laws were passed about

989
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:16,000
Speaker 5: prosecutors being held accountable for their actions, I think a

990
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:18,600
Speaker 5: lot of the shit would end. It's about winning at

991
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:21,160
Speaker 5: all costs. It's not about the search for the truth.

992
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:24,719
Speaker 5: And again, I'm friends with a prosecutor. I know many

993
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:27,840
Speaker 5: good prosecutors. There's good guys out there, so I'm not

994
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:30,640
Speaker 5: saying every prosecutor is like that. But it's the system

995
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:33,719
Speaker 5: is human. It's the reason you cannot have a death

996
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:37,200
Speaker 5: penalty because the system is human and it's so easy.

997
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:41,240
Speaker 5: We see with Damien how an innocent person can be killed.

998
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:44,400
Speaker 5: And so I've spent a lot of times talking to

999
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:48,080
Speaker 5: the mothers of victims of violent crime, and they want vengeance.

1000
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:50,560
Speaker 5: And I understand that desire to have vengeance, and I

1001
00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:52,200
Speaker 5: don't want to look a mother in the eye and

1002
00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:55,480
Speaker 5: say to her, you don't morally have the right to

1003
00:51:56,280 --> 00:52:00,120
Speaker 5: want the death of the killer of your child. We

1004
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:03,240
Speaker 5: don't even have to get to that moral place because

1005
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:07,600
Speaker 5: the death of one innocent person on death row, to me,

1006
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:09,840
Speaker 5: means you can't have a death penalty because the system

1007
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:12,520
Speaker 5: is fallible. It's run by human beings, some of whom

1008
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:14,080
Speaker 5: want to win at all costs.

1009
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:16,759
Speaker 1: No, that's the argument I have with anybody who's pro

1010
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:19,960
Speaker 1: death penalty. I always say, Okay, what percentage of innocent people,

1011
00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:23,000
Speaker 1: are you okay with executing exactly ten percent? I mean,

1012
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:24,920
Speaker 1: we know that of the people that have been exonerated

1013
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:27,680
Speaker 1: from death row, there's proof that four percent of people

1014
00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:30,120
Speaker 1: that were on death row are innocent. But we don't

1015
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:32,279
Speaker 1: know how many others were executed that were innocent as well,

1016
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:36,319
Speaker 1: because most of those cases just literally die when that

1017
00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:39,840
Speaker 1: death takes place. No one goes and investigates those cases.

1018
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:42,000
Speaker 1: I want to say too, there was one period of

1019
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:46,640
Speaker 1: time where Harry Iconic Senior was the DA in New

1020
00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:49,319
Speaker 1: Orleans and he put eight people on death row and

1021
00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:52,080
Speaker 1: six of them were exonerated. I don't know whether the

1022
00:52:52,120 --> 00:52:54,399
Speaker 1: other two are innocent or guilty or what became of them,

1023
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:57,759
Speaker 1: but that was a pretty scary time right there. And

1024
00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:00,960
Speaker 1: there was that amazing sixty minutes piece where another prosecutor

1025
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:04,239
Speaker 1: from New Orleans actually came forward and with tears and

1026
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:07,359
Speaker 1: said that you know, he feels terrible to this day

1027
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:09,480
Speaker 1: about a guy that he put on death row that

1028
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:11,680
Speaker 1: he knew was innocent, and he withheld the evidence, and

1029
00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:14,560
Speaker 1: he talks about his sort of perverse motives and it's

1030
00:53:14,640 --> 00:53:17,400
Speaker 1: just not a thing, Like the death penalty is not

1031
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:20,560
Speaker 1: a thing and just a slight divergence. You know, when

1032
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:24,280
Speaker 1: you said earlier that the typical exunery get a million

1033
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:27,399
Speaker 1: dollars a year, the typical exignery actually gets nothing, right.

1034
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:29,480
Speaker 1: I mean, some of them get paid, but even then

1035
00:53:29,560 --> 00:53:33,000
Speaker 1: it varies wildly from whether they get paid thousands of

1036
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:35,799
Speaker 1: dollars or tens of thousands, or in the rare case

1037
00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:38,400
Speaker 1: like Jeffrey Dskobic, they actually did manage to get millions

1038
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:40,640
Speaker 1: of dollars, but those are rare. You have to prove

1039
00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:43,520
Speaker 1: civil rights violations. And I'll never forget. There was a

1040
00:53:43,560 --> 00:53:46,319
Speaker 1: guy who I actually was friendly with. He's gone now,

1041
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:51,040
Speaker 1: but he was sentenced to death in Louisiana and came

1042
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:55,880
Speaker 1: within days of being executed before somebody found with a

1043
00:53:55,960 --> 00:54:00,520
Speaker 1: microscope and some brilliant scientific research was able to prove

1044
00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:03,640
Speaker 1: with DNA that he was innocent, and he was exonerated

1045
00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:07,279
Speaker 1: and freed, and he was awarded fourteen and a half

1046
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:09,960
Speaker 1: million dollars, and the state of Louisiana a pealed all

1047
00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:12,080
Speaker 1: the way to the US Supreme Court, and the Supreme

1048
00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:15,600
Speaker 1: Court overturned the award five to four. He had proven

1049
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:18,319
Speaker 1: that they had willfully prosecuted him while knowing that he

1050
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:21,600
Speaker 1: was innocent, and the Supreme Court made some bizarre ruling

1051
00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:25,120
Speaker 1: that it wasn't the responsibility of the prosecutors to train

1052
00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:28,880
Speaker 1: the younger prosecutors, that they had to turn over culpatory evidence,

1053
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:31,279
Speaker 1: and that he had to prove a pattern of misconduct.

1054
00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:35,040
Speaker 1: You know, it was just totally nuts. And he wrote

1055
00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 1: an op ed in the New York Times where he said,

1056
00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:42,400
Speaker 1: I don't understand why the prosecutor who tried to kill me,

1057
00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:46,640
Speaker 1: knowing I was innocent, wouldn't be charged with attempted murder. Yeah,

1058
00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:48,640
Speaker 1: I mean, rest in peace. He was a He was

1059
00:54:48,680 --> 00:54:51,080
Speaker 1: a wonderful guy. And what you know, I had breakfast

1060
00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:53,360
Speaker 1: with him actually within days of the time the Supreme

1061
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:56,120
Speaker 1: Court overturned his award and he got nothing. I was

1062
00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:58,520
Speaker 1: happy to be alive. And I'm glad you said what

1063
00:54:58,520 --> 00:55:00,680
Speaker 1: you said, Joe, because I also believe believe that I

1064
00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:03,840
Speaker 1: still believe in in people. I still believe in in

1065
00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:07,080
Speaker 1: prosecutors and police, and I believe in a system of laws.

1066
00:55:07,080 --> 00:55:10,040
Speaker 1: And I think that the large majority of people in

1067
00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:11,960
Speaker 1: our system are good people. I think most of the

1068
00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:14,319
Speaker 1: judges are good, but the ones that are bad, we

1069
00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:16,879
Speaker 1: should all want to get rid of them, because they

1070
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:19,640
Speaker 1: do such terrible damage that they do damage to the

1071
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:22,640
Speaker 1: reputation of the profession as a whole as well. And

1072
00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:26,440
Speaker 1: these stories are real, These are real people, right, Richard Glossip.

1073
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:29,000
Speaker 1: It's unimaginable. And I'm glad you brought that up too,

1074
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:32,560
Speaker 1: because what the fuck kind of sense does it make

1075
00:55:33,239 --> 00:55:37,160
Speaker 1: that before they execute you, they go through this torture,

1076
00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:39,640
Speaker 1: like literal torture. And you know, there was a guy

1077
00:55:39,680 --> 00:55:42,280
Speaker 1: in Virginia whose case I've been involved with, and thankfully

1078
00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:44,720
Speaker 1: we were able to prevent his execution because he's innocent,

1079
00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:49,680
Speaker 1: guy ning Me Bontelugus. And during the process of you know,

1080
00:55:49,719 --> 00:55:52,440
Speaker 1: working through his case, I learned that they have a

1081
00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:56,279
Speaker 1: practice in the Commonwealth of Virginia where I think it's

1082
00:55:57,000 --> 00:56:00,400
Speaker 1: fifteen days or three weeks before your execution, move you

1083
00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:03,040
Speaker 1: to another cell where you have none of your books,

1084
00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:06,640
Speaker 1: You have basically nothing. The lights are on, like you said,

1085
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:09,000
Speaker 1: the whole time, and they come and check on you

1086
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:11,440
Speaker 1: every fifteen minutes, So they wake you up every fifteen

1087
00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:13,799
Speaker 1: minutes and go, hey, just want to make sure Joe

1088
00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:16,160
Speaker 1: everything okay in there, Like I just want to you know,

1089
00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:20,240
Speaker 1: like what what I mean.

1090
00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:22,319
Speaker 5: Well, who came up with that well, I think they're

1091
00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:23,319
Speaker 5: trying to wear you down.

1092
00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:24,600
Speaker 2: So why so you just.

1093
00:56:24,640 --> 00:56:26,880
Speaker 5: Accept your death so that you don't make a scene

1094
00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:30,000
Speaker 5: for the witnesses who are experiencing it.

1095
00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:30,799
Speaker 1: Is that what it is?

1096
00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:32,960
Speaker 5: I don't know, I mean, and no one's told me that,

1097
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:34,680
Speaker 5: but I just feel like they're just trying to wear

1098
00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:37,000
Speaker 5: you down so you don't fight back. And Glossop told

1099
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:39,319
Speaker 5: me himself, like he was so tired that, you know,

1100
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:41,719
Speaker 5: he was accepting of his fate even though he knew

1101
00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:43,839
Speaker 5: it was wrong, you know, and if it wasn't for

1102
00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:46,120
Speaker 5: the wrong drug, he'd be gone.

1103
00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:51,080
Speaker 1: It's so incredibly troubling because like, why, just why you

1104
00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:53,520
Speaker 1: got the guy you wanted, You got the actual killer.

1105
00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:56,440
Speaker 1: You guys did your job right, It's done. What do

1106
00:56:56,480 --> 00:56:58,880
Speaker 1: you need the extra body for what? And there's so

1107
00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:00,560
Speaker 1: many richer glossops. I mean.

1108
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:06,160
Speaker 5: The other weird and hard dynamic is that the family

1109
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:10,440
Speaker 5: of the victim in that case believes the glossip is guilty.

1110
00:57:10,640 --> 00:57:16,440
Speaker 5: And for years, the families of the West Memphis three, sorry,

1111
00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:20,280
Speaker 5: the families of the victims, the parents of Michael Moore,

1112
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:24,840
Speaker 5: Christopher Byers, and Stevie Branch thought we were horrible people,

1113
00:57:25,040 --> 00:57:27,600
Speaker 5: just Hollywood elites, and so funny when them called the

1114
00:57:27,640 --> 00:57:30,000
Speaker 5: Hollywood elite. I live an hour north of Manhattan, and

1115
00:57:30,080 --> 00:57:34,040
Speaker 5: A you know that as far away from Hollywood as possible,

1116
00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:37,960
Speaker 5: but you know that somehow Hollywood elites conspire to get

1117
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:40,960
Speaker 5: these devil worshippers out of prison. For years, they hated us,

1118
00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:44,480
Speaker 5: call us names. And that's painful because you don't want

1119
00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:47,520
Speaker 5: to as makers of these things. You want to shine

1120
00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:49,400
Speaker 5: a light on the truth, but you don't want to

1121
00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:53,280
Speaker 5: cause the family's pain. And that's the disservice that these

1122
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:57,880
Speaker 5: police officials and prosecutors who maintain this facade of righteousness,

1123
00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:00,680
Speaker 5: that's the damage they inflict on the family family members

1124
00:58:00,720 --> 00:58:04,640
Speaker 5: because a there's no justice because the real killers are

1125
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:08,800
Speaker 5: running free. And secondly, the healing process. You know, we're

1126
00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:11,840
Speaker 5: both parents, and I can't imagine, you know, anything worse

1127
00:58:11,880 --> 00:58:14,480
Speaker 5: than losing a child. And there's no closure for losing

1128
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:18,919
Speaker 5: a child, but there certainly can be finality to the experience,

1129
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:23,680
Speaker 5: and your healing process is predicated on knowing justice has

1130
00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:27,360
Speaker 5: been served. And so we came along and upset the

1131
00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:30,080
Speaker 5: apple cart by coming out with a film that's saying, hey, everything,

1132
00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:33,400
Speaker 5: the police and prosecution and all your ten thousand meetings

1133
00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:37,280
Speaker 5: with these people is wrong, and you're putting these families

1134
00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:41,720
Speaker 5: through a double tragedy. And for years they hated our

1135
00:58:41,760 --> 00:58:44,760
Speaker 5: guts and two of the three families came to accept

1136
00:58:44,760 --> 00:58:46,600
Speaker 5: our point of view by the end of the Second

1137
00:58:46,920 --> 00:58:50,680
Speaker 5: Paradise Loss, but even at by the time of the

1138
00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:53,120
Speaker 5: Third Paradise Loss, which came out in twenty eleven and

1139
00:58:53,160 --> 00:58:56,600
Speaker 5: coincided with their release. One of the families. You know,

1140
00:58:56,800 --> 00:58:59,320
Speaker 5: the movie was nominated for an Academy Award and some

1141
00:58:59,360 --> 00:59:02,920
Speaker 5: other prizes, and I mention that only because these families

1142
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:06,240
Speaker 5: took the time to write to the Academy and to

1143
00:59:06,280 --> 00:59:09,080
Speaker 5: the Director's Guild and every place that had nominated us

1144
00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:12,120
Speaker 5: for a prize, to say that these films are works

1145
00:59:12,120 --> 00:59:15,720
Speaker 5: of fiction, that we manipulated them, we lied to them,

1146
00:59:15,880 --> 00:59:18,720
Speaker 5: that the West Memphis Three are guilty, and I look,

1147
00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:21,560
Speaker 5: I have even though they hate us, I have endless

1148
00:59:21,600 --> 00:59:24,480
Speaker 5: reservoirs of sympathy for them, because again, going through this

1149
00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:27,800
Speaker 5: experience is every parent's worst nightmare. And then to be

1150
00:59:27,920 --> 00:59:30,960
Speaker 5: victimized by the system again because the police and the

1151
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:34,280
Speaker 5: prosecution have lied to them. That's the other part that

1152
00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:36,760
Speaker 5: people don't really think about, is what happens to the

1153
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:39,320
Speaker 5: victims when the truth is just not the truth.

1154
00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:41,880
Speaker 1: Who do you think killed those kids?

1155
00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:45,760
Speaker 5: Oh, I don't want to do. I don't want to

1156
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:49,560
Speaker 5: do to somebody else what I think was done to Damien.

1157
00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:52,600
Speaker 5: What I do know is that the case needs to

1158
00:59:52,640 --> 00:59:58,640
Speaker 5: be reopened. That we all know that no sane prosecutor

1159
00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:03,200
Speaker 5: would knowingly let convicted teen Satanist child killers out into

1160
01:00:03,200 --> 01:00:05,600
Speaker 5: the real world if they had any kind of belief

1161
01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:08,200
Speaker 5: that they were guilty. If they did, because the argument

1162
01:00:08,480 --> 01:00:11,240
Speaker 5: in Arkansas amongst some of these officials is there was

1163
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:13,960
Speaker 5: so much pressure from Johnny Depp and Eddie Vedder and

1164
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:17,560
Speaker 5: Peter Jackson. Well, shame on you. You're going to let

1165
01:00:17,600 --> 01:00:21,000
Speaker 5: a convicted child killer who you believe is capable of

1166
01:00:21,080 --> 01:00:24,240
Speaker 5: castrating little boys in a Satanic ritual. You're going to

1167
01:00:24,400 --> 01:00:27,320
Speaker 5: let them out after eighteen years because Johnny Depp said

1168
01:00:27,360 --> 01:00:30,280
Speaker 5: to So if that's true, shame on you. And if

1169
01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:32,680
Speaker 5: you don't believe that, and they're actually innocent, as we

1170
01:00:32,720 --> 01:00:35,320
Speaker 5: all know, then shame on you for sticking with this

1171
01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:38,600
Speaker 5: Alfred plea and not looking into the case. As we

1172
01:00:38,640 --> 01:00:42,320
Speaker 5: all know, there's some evidence that points very directly to

1173
01:00:42,720 --> 01:00:45,680
Speaker 5: one of the stepfathers. I don't want to say he's

1174
01:00:45,680 --> 01:00:49,640
Speaker 5: guilty or not, but a competent authority needs to look

1175
01:00:49,640 --> 01:00:52,280
Speaker 5: into this, and they refuse to because they're hiding behind

1176
01:00:52,280 --> 01:00:55,080
Speaker 5: the Alfred plea. And that's the crime here. I mean,

1177
01:00:55,520 --> 01:00:57,960
Speaker 5: there are some simple abuses that I think could easily

1178
01:00:57,960 --> 01:01:01,680
Speaker 5: be remedied. One is prosecutorial accountability. There's way too much

1179
01:01:01,720 --> 01:01:05,440
Speaker 5: misconduct that needs to be arrested, and I think finding

1180
01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:08,760
Speaker 5: the balance between making it so scary that a prosecutor

1181
01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:11,080
Speaker 5: doesn't even want to take the job, which I understand,

1182
01:01:11,160 --> 01:01:14,880
Speaker 5: versus like just wilful withholding of evidence for example, it

1183
01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:17,880
Speaker 5: just needs to be stopped. The other thing is that

1184
01:01:18,000 --> 01:01:21,000
Speaker 5: people get a vested interest in staying on a case forever.

1185
01:01:21,200 --> 01:01:24,240
Speaker 5: Prosecutors stay on a case. Judges in some states like

1186
01:01:24,360 --> 01:01:26,800
Speaker 5: Arkansas are allowed to stay on the case if something

1187
01:01:26,840 --> 01:01:29,200
Speaker 5: is up for review. The original people should be out

1188
01:01:29,240 --> 01:01:32,040
Speaker 5: of the picture immediately. I mean, it just doesn't make

1189
01:01:32,080 --> 01:01:35,480
Speaker 5: sense to me. One of the cases that the Supreme

1190
01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:39,479
Speaker 5: Court finally is going to hear is the Curtis Flowers case,

1191
01:01:40,080 --> 01:01:42,400
Speaker 5: and we profiled Curtis Flowers. I mean, he's a guy.

1192
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:45,040
Speaker 5: I think it's totally innocent, and we profiled that case

1193
01:01:45,080 --> 01:01:47,760
Speaker 5: on a show I do call wrong Man, and the

1194
01:01:47,840 --> 01:01:51,960
Speaker 5: guy has been tried. He's the most tried inmate in

1195
01:01:52,000 --> 01:01:57,600
Speaker 5: the history of American jurisprudence. Jurisprudence is that he said, yes,

1196
01:01:58,280 --> 01:02:02,440
Speaker 5: that's right, I'm better at filmmaking than vocabulary. He's been

1197
01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:07,880
Speaker 5: tried six times and each time it's the same prosecutor,

1198
01:02:08,040 --> 01:02:12,400
Speaker 5: and they keep affirming his conviction again, circumstantial evidence and

1199
01:02:12,520 --> 01:02:15,480
Speaker 5: so many holes in that case. And thankfully the Supreme

1200
01:02:15,520 --> 01:02:17,480
Speaker 5: Court a few weeks ago said they're going to hear

1201
01:02:17,480 --> 01:02:19,760
Speaker 5: the case again. But even the Supreme Court hearing the case,

1202
01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:22,160
Speaker 5: if it's a good result and the state appeal is

1203
01:02:22,200 --> 01:02:24,720
Speaker 5: overturned by the Supreme Court, then it gets remanded back

1204
01:02:24,760 --> 01:02:27,680
Speaker 5: to you know, to the state to determine if they're

1205
01:02:27,720 --> 01:02:30,000
Speaker 5: going to try him a seventh time, which is absurd,

1206
01:02:30,040 --> 01:02:31,480
Speaker 5: and it's the same prosecutor.

1207
01:02:31,520 --> 01:02:34,880
Speaker 1: It's like crazy, right, the taxpayer dollars that are being

1208
01:02:34,960 --> 01:02:38,040
Speaker 1: expended on this if, I mean, it's probably the least

1209
01:02:38,080 --> 01:02:41,000
Speaker 1: important aspect of it, but it's still a remarkable amount

1210
01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:43,840
Speaker 1: of time and energy and resources being devoted to persecuting

1211
01:02:43,880 --> 01:02:46,920
Speaker 1: this one guy, Curtis Flowers, who was convicted of murdering

1212
01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:50,919
Speaker 1: four people in a furniture store in Mississippi.

1213
01:02:50,320 --> 01:02:54,640
Speaker 5: Mississippi, four white people. He's a black man. And you

1214
01:02:54,680 --> 01:02:57,760
Speaker 5: know that's the other huge problem, as I don't need

1215
01:02:57,800 --> 01:03:01,760
Speaker 5: to tell anyone that the extreme racial inequities in our system,

1216
01:03:01,920 --> 01:03:02,160
Speaker 5: you know.

1217
01:03:02,800 --> 01:03:05,560
Speaker 1: So we don't have a ton of time left. I

1218
01:03:05,600 --> 01:03:07,640
Speaker 1: do want to ask you what do you think about

1219
01:03:07,680 --> 01:03:12,920
Speaker 1: the role of media in the criminal justice debate? Right now?

1220
01:03:13,640 --> 01:03:16,080
Speaker 1: And then I have one more question for you before

1221
01:03:16,120 --> 01:03:17,320
Speaker 1: we go to final thoughts.

1222
01:03:17,360 --> 01:03:20,680
Speaker 5: Sure, you know, I think one size does not fit all.

1223
01:03:20,720 --> 01:03:23,360
Speaker 5: There's a lot of irresponsible reporting. I mean, we saw

1224
01:03:23,360 --> 01:03:27,720
Speaker 5: in the Amanda Knox case that reporters were horrible in

1225
01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:31,160
Speaker 5: festering the image of Foxy Noxy and making her seem

1226
01:03:31,160 --> 01:03:34,440
Speaker 5: guilty and really did her a disservice in her case.

1227
01:03:34,520 --> 01:03:36,240
Speaker 5: And same thing with Eccholes. I mean, you know, the

1228
01:03:36,560 --> 01:03:39,600
Speaker 5: local media down there was just fanning the flames of

1229
01:03:39,680 --> 01:03:42,800
Speaker 5: the monster of the daily headline and the daily news report.

1230
01:03:43,480 --> 01:03:47,320
Speaker 5: So there's a lot of irresponsible reporting. There's a lot

1231
01:03:47,360 --> 01:03:50,200
Speaker 5: of true crime And I hate that phrase again because

1232
01:03:50,240 --> 01:03:54,280
Speaker 5: it somehow implies like I'm considered a true crime filmmaker.

1233
01:03:54,280 --> 01:03:56,360
Speaker 5: I'd rather not be known as a true crime filmmaker,

1234
01:03:56,360 --> 01:03:58,720
Speaker 5: you know, I'm a filmmaker who's involved in the criminal

1235
01:03:58,840 --> 01:04:02,960
Speaker 5: justice system. Prime implies that you're wallowing in the misery

1236
01:04:02,960 --> 01:04:05,600
Speaker 5: of others, you know, for entertainment purposes, and that's the

1237
01:04:05,640 --> 01:04:07,600
Speaker 5: last thing I'm doing. But some of that stuff on

1238
01:04:07,600 --> 01:04:11,120
Speaker 5: some of these networks does that. So I think the

1239
01:04:11,240 --> 01:04:16,760
Speaker 5: role of smart, talented storytellers who are shining a light

1240
01:04:16,920 --> 01:04:20,439
Speaker 5: on criminal justice abuse has never been more important. First

1241
01:04:20,480 --> 01:04:22,320
Speaker 5: of all, for the first time and because of the

1242
01:04:22,400 --> 01:04:25,120
Speaker 5: last couple of years, with the advent of streaming and

1243
01:04:25,200 --> 01:04:28,760
Speaker 5: the growing popularity of documentary in general. You know, when

1244
01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:31,800
Speaker 5: I started making films twenty five years ago, if you

1245
01:04:31,800 --> 01:04:34,360
Speaker 5: didn't sell your documentary to PBS or HBO, you weren't

1246
01:04:34,360 --> 01:04:37,120
Speaker 5: selling your documentary. And now there's just you know, unscripted

1247
01:04:37,200 --> 01:04:39,240
Speaker 5: series were never heard of. I mean, that was just

1248
01:04:39,320 --> 01:04:42,479
Speaker 5: not even a concept. And with that also has come,

1249
01:04:43,040 --> 01:04:45,600
Speaker 5: you know, the blurring of the line between entertainment and

1250
01:04:45,720 --> 01:04:51,120
Speaker 5: news at networks has become so blurry that certain stories

1251
01:04:51,160 --> 01:04:53,080
Speaker 5: aren't covered. You know, the networks are owned by a

1252
01:04:53,120 --> 01:04:55,720
Speaker 5: handful of corporations after all, and I like all the

1253
01:04:55,760 --> 01:04:58,560
Speaker 5: companies I work with, but there are certain stories that

1254
01:04:58,680 --> 01:05:01,280
Speaker 5: they won't cover for fear of offending advertise. I'm not

1255
01:05:01,320 --> 01:05:03,320
Speaker 5: just talking in the criminal justice round, but there's certain

1256
01:05:03,320 --> 01:05:07,280
Speaker 5: stories that either they won't rate, you know, in other words,

1257
01:05:07,280 --> 01:05:11,640
Speaker 5: the audience won't be big enough, or they'll offend certain advertisers.

1258
01:05:11,720 --> 01:05:16,120
Speaker 5: So today in twenty nineteen, also because of the demise

1259
01:05:16,160 --> 01:05:19,080
Speaker 5: of print journalism because of the Internet, you know, newspapers

1260
01:05:19,120 --> 01:05:24,240
Speaker 5: have been gutted. You know, I think the independent documentarians.

1261
01:05:23,240 --> 01:05:24,800
Speaker 1: Are doing some of the most.

1262
01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:30,360
Speaker 5: Robust social justice reporting, and so that kind of filmmaking

1263
01:05:30,640 --> 01:05:34,040
Speaker 5: couldn't be more important and more timely. But it's hard

1264
01:05:34,080 --> 01:05:36,080
Speaker 5: to paint it all with the same brush because there's

1265
01:05:36,080 --> 01:05:39,800
Speaker 5: a lot of horrible reporting and irresponsible reporting. But generally

1266
01:05:40,680 --> 01:05:41,840
Speaker 5: I think it's a good thing.

1267
01:05:42,840 --> 01:05:47,800
Speaker 1: For people that are listening now and who are hearing

1268
01:05:47,920 --> 01:05:53,000
Speaker 1: the amazing story of how you sort of almost accidentally

1269
01:05:53,120 --> 01:05:55,880
Speaker 1: got involved in this or serendipitously got involved in its

1270
01:05:55,920 --> 01:05:58,760
Speaker 1: work and then ended up having an outsize impact. I know,

1271
01:05:59,160 --> 01:06:03,080
Speaker 1: for me, more than ever, I'm getting increase from people.

1272
01:06:03,120 --> 01:06:04,880
Speaker 1: How do I help? What do I do? I want

1273
01:06:04,880 --> 01:06:06,560
Speaker 1: to be involved? I want to do something. I listen

1274
01:06:06,600 --> 01:06:08,720
Speaker 1: to your show or I saw something on TV, or

1275
01:06:08,760 --> 01:06:11,160
Speaker 1: I came to an Innocence Project event, and what would

1276
01:06:11,240 --> 01:06:13,840
Speaker 1: you tell people that are listening now that want to

1277
01:06:13,840 --> 01:06:16,720
Speaker 1: get involved. What's the best way for them to, you know,

1278
01:06:16,720 --> 01:06:19,120
Speaker 1: make a difference someone who's not you know, isn't a

1279
01:06:19,320 --> 01:06:21,720
Speaker 1: rich person, but it's someone who has a heart and

1280
01:06:21,800 --> 01:06:24,480
Speaker 1: who hears about Richard Glossip or hears about so many

1281
01:06:24,480 --> 01:06:27,640
Speaker 1: of the other people Yvonne Tellegous or Rob will who

1282
01:06:27,680 --> 01:06:29,880
Speaker 1: I recently visited on Death Throw in Texas, who is

1283
01:06:29,880 --> 01:06:32,920
Speaker 1: innocent as could be. What do you tell these people?

1284
01:06:32,960 --> 01:06:35,400
Speaker 5: I mean, first of all is awareness. You know, I myself,

1285
01:06:35,440 --> 01:06:38,360
Speaker 5: before I got involved in this accidentally went because I

1286
01:06:38,400 --> 01:06:39,960
Speaker 5: was making a film about something else.

1287
01:06:40,000 --> 01:06:40,400
Speaker 1: I thought.

1288
01:06:40,560 --> 01:06:43,080
Speaker 5: I had a basic belief that the system works, and

1289
01:06:43,200 --> 01:06:46,720
Speaker 5: it works sometimes, but it often fails miserably. So just

1290
01:06:46,800 --> 01:06:51,120
Speaker 5: having that basic understanding and awareness is helpful and little

1291
01:06:51,160 --> 01:06:54,960
Speaker 5: actions add up to a lot. Again, not saying anything

1292
01:06:55,120 --> 01:06:59,040
Speaker 5: discourteous about Johnny Depp or Eddie Vedder or Natalie Mains,

1293
01:07:00,000 --> 01:07:04,800
Speaker 5: those guys were amazing. Those names wrote checks and did

1294
01:07:04,840 --> 01:07:09,680
Speaker 5: things and did concerts. But what really made the difference,

1295
01:07:09,680 --> 01:07:12,080
Speaker 5: in my opinion, really what made a difference in that

1296
01:07:12,160 --> 01:07:15,760
Speaker 5: case were tens of thousands of regular people who saw

1297
01:07:15,840 --> 01:07:20,280
Speaker 5: paradise lost, who did not have an outsized wallet. But

1298
01:07:20,720 --> 01:07:25,919
Speaker 5: until the local politicians and prosecutors are politicians and many

1299
01:07:26,000 --> 01:07:30,360
Speaker 5: municipalities they are elected officials. They didn't start taking the

1300
01:07:30,400 --> 01:07:34,520
Speaker 5: case seriously until the local population took the case seriously.

1301
01:07:35,160 --> 01:07:38,440
Speaker 5: And what made the local population take the case seriously

1302
01:07:38,760 --> 01:07:42,040
Speaker 5: is tens of thousands of people who banded together on

1303
01:07:42,040 --> 01:07:45,840
Speaker 5: this website called Free the West Memphis II went down

1304
01:07:45,960 --> 01:07:50,479
Speaker 5: religiously to every action, every appeal, every hearing. There were

1305
01:07:50,720 --> 01:07:53,600
Speaker 5: thousands of regular people from all walks of life who

1306
01:07:53,720 --> 01:07:57,240
Speaker 5: chose to take their vacation in Jonesboro, Arkansas, to hold

1307
01:07:57,280 --> 01:08:00,640
Speaker 5: up a sign and have their voices heard. At the

1308
01:08:00,760 --> 01:08:02,959
Speaker 5: end of the day, a lot of these people who

1309
01:08:03,320 --> 01:08:06,760
Speaker 5: hold positions of power, who have this unique power to

1310
01:08:06,840 --> 01:08:13,200
Speaker 5: take your liberty away, often unjustly, often justly. Again, I

1311
01:08:13,200 --> 01:08:16,519
Speaker 5: don't think every prosecutor is a bad guy, but they

1312
01:08:16,560 --> 01:08:19,200
Speaker 5: are elected officials for the most part. And people should

1313
01:08:19,280 --> 01:08:22,360
Speaker 5: wake up. And if you live in Oklahoma, pay attention

1314
01:08:22,439 --> 01:08:24,840
Speaker 5: to the Richard Glossop case. I mean, there's sadly there's

1315
01:08:24,840 --> 01:08:28,080
Speaker 5: a case, and there's a wrongful conviction case. Yet probably

1316
01:08:28,080 --> 01:08:31,960
Speaker 5: in every state and just little actions and awareness I

1317
01:08:32,000 --> 01:08:33,880
Speaker 5: think go a long way. You don't have to write

1318
01:08:33,920 --> 01:08:34,479
Speaker 5: a big check.

1319
01:08:35,240 --> 01:08:38,920
Speaker 1: So I guess start by watching learning more. Watch The

1320
01:08:38,960 --> 01:08:39,920
Speaker 1: Wrong Man.

1321
01:08:39,760 --> 01:08:41,240
Speaker 5: You can stream on Amazon.

1322
01:08:41,640 --> 01:08:45,920
Speaker 1: Watch An Innocent Man, the amazing documentary about the book

1323
01:08:45,960 --> 01:08:48,720
Speaker 1: that John Grisham wrote about these cases in Ada, Oklahoma,

1324
01:08:49,000 --> 01:08:53,280
Speaker 1: and go to Frerobwill dot org. Is there a Richard glossopside.

1325
01:08:53,280 --> 01:08:54,200
Speaker 1: I'm sure there is if.

1326
01:08:54,160 --> 01:08:57,000
Speaker 5: You google Richard Glossip and why I'm drawing a blank

1327
01:08:57,040 --> 01:08:59,599
Speaker 5: what the website is, But just google Richard Glossip and

1328
01:08:59,680 --> 01:09:02,160
Speaker 5: you'll you'll find a lot of supporters. There's a guy

1329
01:09:02,200 --> 01:09:05,320
Speaker 5: named Don Knight in Colorado who's running that case. He's

1330
01:09:05,360 --> 01:09:10,000
Speaker 5: the tireless, thankless defense attorney who is really is doing

1331
01:09:10,080 --> 01:09:13,400
Speaker 5: amazing work. So Don Knight in Colorado is a good

1332
01:09:13,439 --> 01:09:15,960
Speaker 5: guy to be in touch with if you feel you

1333
01:09:16,000 --> 01:09:18,439
Speaker 5: have something significant to offer, or just be.

1334
01:09:18,439 --> 01:09:21,960
Speaker 1: Aware and one minute speed round. First of all, I

1335
01:09:21,960 --> 01:09:24,240
Speaker 1: want to thank you for this has been fun coming

1336
01:09:24,560 --> 01:09:29,680
Speaker 1: Joe Berlinger, amazing filmmaker and advocate for the wrongfully convicted,

1337
01:09:29,920 --> 01:09:32,679
Speaker 1: and I'm looking forward to doing more work with you. Yeah,

1338
01:09:32,720 --> 01:09:35,360
Speaker 1: me too. And like I said, let's take the last

1339
01:09:35,360 --> 01:09:38,080
Speaker 1: minute or two. Any final thoughts that you have, if

1340
01:09:38,120 --> 01:09:38,799
Speaker 1: you have any.

1341
01:09:39,240 --> 01:09:42,320
Speaker 5: You know, we have a criminal justice system sorely in

1342
01:09:42,400 --> 01:09:44,879
Speaker 5: need to reform, and I think it's the number one issue.

1343
01:09:45,000 --> 01:09:48,320
Speaker 5: The thing we hold most dear as Americans, the thing

1344
01:09:48,360 --> 01:09:51,479
Speaker 5: that's set us apart is our personal liberty, and a

1345
01:09:51,520 --> 01:09:55,080
Speaker 5: prosecutor has the unique power to take that personal liberty

1346
01:09:55,120 --> 01:09:58,439
Speaker 5: away without accountability. And I think it's time to hold

1347
01:09:58,520 --> 01:10:01,040
Speaker 5: those people who have the power to take our liberty

1348
01:10:01,080 --> 01:10:03,840
Speaker 5: away to be held accountable to a higher standard. And

1349
01:10:03,880 --> 01:10:05,760
Speaker 5: I think a lot of these problems would go away.

1350
01:10:05,800 --> 01:10:08,559
Speaker 5: But there's all sorts of problems in our criminal justice system,

1351
01:10:08,560 --> 01:10:10,599
Speaker 5: and people should be aware of it because it really

1352
01:10:10,640 --> 01:10:13,559
Speaker 5: needs addressing. I mean, a whole generation has been locked

1353
01:10:13,560 --> 01:10:15,720
Speaker 5: away over horrible drug laws. I mean, we can go

1354
01:10:15,800 --> 01:10:17,760
Speaker 5: on and on and on. You know, we have five

1355
01:10:17,800 --> 01:10:20,600
Speaker 5: percent of the world's population and twenty five percent of

1356
01:10:20,640 --> 01:10:23,599
Speaker 5: the world's prison population, more than Russia and China combined.

1357
01:10:23,720 --> 01:10:26,360
Speaker 5: That's disturbing and goes against who we think we are

1358
01:10:26,400 --> 01:10:27,160
Speaker 5: as Americans.

1359
01:10:27,360 --> 01:10:29,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, we locked black people up at six times the

1360
01:10:29,680 --> 01:10:32,240
Speaker 1: rate of South Africa the height of apartheid. It's all

1361
01:10:32,240 --> 01:10:35,960
Speaker 1: a national shame and a disgrace. But absolutely, yeah, please

1362
01:10:36,000 --> 01:10:39,679
Speaker 1: do get involved. Keep listening. We appreciate you being here

1363
01:10:39,680 --> 01:10:41,840
Speaker 1: with us. And when you're on a jury, we need

1364
01:10:41,880 --> 01:10:45,759
Speaker 1: everybody to show up serve because it's just your felom

1365
01:10:45,840 --> 01:10:47,559
Speaker 1: human being who's up there, and they may be the

1366
01:10:47,600 --> 01:10:50,960
Speaker 1: next Damien Echols. So thanks again for listening. This is

1367
01:10:51,000 --> 01:11:04,759
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction. Don't forget to give us a fantastic review

1368
01:11:04,800 --> 01:11:08,479
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm

1369
01:11:08,520 --> 01:11:11,120
Speaker 1: a proud donor to the Innocence Project and I really

1370
01:11:11,200 --> 01:11:14,320
Speaker 1: hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause

1371
01:11:14,520 --> 01:11:18,560
Speaker 1: and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocenceproject

1372
01:11:18,600 --> 01:11:21,360
Speaker 1: dot org to learn how to donate and get involved.

1373
01:11:21,720 --> 01:11:24,240
Speaker 1: I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and

1374
01:11:24,320 --> 01:11:27,040
Speaker 1: Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is by three

1375
01:11:27,080 --> 01:11:30,439
Speaker 1: time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow

1376
01:11:30,520 --> 01:11:34,000
Speaker 1: us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at

1377
01:11:34,120 --> 01:11:37,920
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a

1378
01:11:37,960 --> 01:11:41,759
Speaker 1: production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal

1379
01:11:41,800 --> 01:11:44,639
Speaker 1: Company Number one