WEBVTT - Questlove Supreme: Rick Rubin 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:03.080 Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:07.640 --> 0:00:10.920 Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome to another episode of Quest Love Supreme. 0:00:11.119 --> 0:00:12.039 My name is Quest Love. 0:00:12.720 --> 0:00:17.400 We're here today with Layah Sugar, Steve Unpaid, Bill. 0:00:17.520 --> 0:00:22.280 And Von Tigelow. Hello. 0:00:22.720 --> 0:00:25.959 I will say that our guest today is world renowned. 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:30.080 He's a world renowned reducer. Those are his words, not 0:00:30.240 --> 0:00:35.599 my words. World renowned reducer. From establishing one of the 0:00:35.640 --> 0:00:39.400 greatest hip hop labels in history, Deft cham Uh, to 0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:42.520 working with all the greats from Read Now, Chili Pepper, 0:00:42.840 --> 0:00:47.000 Tom Petty, there's Slayer, there's the Cult, There's Kanye West, 0:00:47.000 --> 0:00:50.800 There's Dixie Chicks, There's Mick Jagger, there's Neil Diamond. 0:00:50.440 --> 0:00:52.680 There's the Roots. 0:00:53.000 --> 0:00:57.200 I'm putting it out there anyway. Ladies, please welcome the 0:00:57.240 --> 0:01:01.480 Guru of music to Quest Love Supreme, to know Rick Rubin. 0:01:02.000 --> 0:01:07.479 Thank you for doing our show today. Finally, where are you? 0:01:07.720 --> 0:01:09.280 Where are you currently right now? 0:01:09.360 --> 0:01:09.520 Rick? 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:13.480 I am right now in Kawhi on lockdown. That's a 0:01:13.520 --> 0:01:17.400 good place to be on lockdown? Do you consider is 0:01:17.480 --> 0:01:18.800 that home for you? 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:20.399 Or is it just like Okay, if I have to 0:01:20.440 --> 0:01:23.600 be on lockdown, I'd rather be in this particular environment. 0:01:24.520 --> 0:01:28.560 We mainly live in Malibu and spend some time here, 0:01:28.640 --> 0:01:31.720 usually in the winter, and this year the winter extended 0:01:31.760 --> 0:01:34.440 because of the lockdown, so it seemed like a better 0:01:34.440 --> 0:01:36.120 place to be on lockdown. 0:01:36.680 --> 0:01:42.319 Ah okay, are you able to operate under your your 0:01:42.840 --> 0:01:46.360 sort of your creative guys at least uh in Kawai? 0:01:46.680 --> 0:01:48.680 Or are all these toys in LA? 0:01:49.400 --> 0:01:51.480 Toys are in La, But we have a setup here 0:01:51.480 --> 0:01:52.760 that's working working well. 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:56.960 You have you have an extensive history, So I was 0:01:57.040 --> 0:01:59.600 debating with myself whether or not to do the normal 0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:04.280 chron logical thing or should we just go kamakazi because 0:02:04.320 --> 0:02:07.800 there's so many stories I want to learn about your production. 0:02:07.920 --> 0:02:10.440 But I do want to know about your introduction to music. 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:11.720 First of all, where. 0:02:11.480 --> 0:02:12.160 Were you born? 0:02:12.720 --> 0:02:13.840 Long Beach, Long Island? 0:02:14.280 --> 0:02:17.800 Long Beach, Long Island? Is that where you're born on? Paybill? 0:02:18.600 --> 0:02:20.520 No, I was just born on Long Island. Shout out 0:02:20.560 --> 0:02:23.360 to Long Island. Oh okay, all right, Birds of a Feather, 0:02:23.480 --> 0:02:26.560 that's cool. What was your the very first record that 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:27.360 you purchased? 0:02:27.800 --> 0:02:31.520 I remember buying. I don't remember what was the first one, 0:02:31.560 --> 0:02:35.640 but I remember the experience of buying seven inches. I 0:02:35.680 --> 0:02:39.680 can remember shopping for forty fives in Times Square store 0:02:39.840 --> 0:02:45.040 in Oceanside and Snoopy Versus the Red Baron may have 0:02:45.080 --> 0:02:46.960 been one of them, but I don't I don't remember 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:49.160 exactly what the record was. 0:02:48.840 --> 0:02:54.680 What was the moment that you realized that, okay, I'd 0:02:54.840 --> 0:02:57.520 like a space in the music world, or that's what 0:02:57.560 --> 0:02:58.080 I want to do. 0:02:59.280 --> 0:03:02.320 I don't know that I ever had that feeling. I mean, 0:03:02.360 --> 0:03:04.400 I knew that I loved it, and I knew that 0:03:04.760 --> 0:03:07.480 it would be a huge part of my life, but 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:11.160 I never thought it would be my job. Really, Okay, well, 0:03:11.600 --> 0:03:13.320 I didn't think that was a I didn't think that 0:03:13.360 --> 0:03:16.280 was a realistic possibility. I was going to have a 0:03:16.320 --> 0:03:19.160 real job and that would support my music habit. What 0:03:19.200 --> 0:03:22.480 were you planning on becoming. I was on track. My 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:24.400 parents had me on a track to be a lawyer. 0:03:24.560 --> 0:03:27.720 That would have been there. Their wish would have either 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:30.560 been a doctor or a lawyer, and I was always 0:03:30.600 --> 0:03:35.080 afraid of afraid of blood. I don't know. And then 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:37.560 I thought, oh, well, there are lawyers involved in the 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:40.360 music industry, so maybe I could be involved in that 0:03:40.440 --> 0:03:42.840 way because I'd have to have a job. But my 0:03:42.960 --> 0:03:45.440 real love is music. But I didn't know anyone who 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:47.840 did music as a job. I didn't think that was 0:03:47.880 --> 0:03:48.480 a real thing. 0:03:48.880 --> 0:03:49.920 What were your parents? 0:03:50.360 --> 0:03:53.640 My dad was a businessman, store owner, my mom was 0:03:53.680 --> 0:03:54.320 a housewife. 0:03:54.880 --> 0:03:56.440 Is Rick Rubin your birth name? 0:03:57.040 --> 0:03:59.440 Frederick J. Rubin is the name I was born with, 0:03:59.480 --> 0:04:00.920 but I was called Rick from the time I was 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:03.640 a kid. No one ever called me anything else. 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:06.520 Yeah, you would have been in the Ruben attorney at law. Yeah, 0:04:08.640 --> 0:04:12.000 that's why. That's that's a lawyer's dare. Okay, I get it. 0:04:12.720 --> 0:04:12.920 I know. 0:04:13.000 --> 0:04:16.040 There's there's a story that I heard about once performing 0:04:16.080 --> 0:04:19.680 at CBGB's and it was less than desirable, and I 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:26.039 believe the end result was your father coming down from 0:04:26.080 --> 0:04:28.240 Long Island, but he was dressed as a cop. Did 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:30.679 I make up that story in my mind or something? 0:04:30.680 --> 0:04:33.279 But I don't remember ever telling that story. But the 0:04:33.320 --> 0:04:35.839 story is around and it may be rooted in something 0:04:35.839 --> 0:04:38.520 that actually happened. I have a vague memory of it, 0:04:38.560 --> 0:04:41.039 but I don't remember. I can't I can't remember telling 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:43.880 the story, but I think it might have happened. I 0:04:43.920 --> 0:04:46.279 think I think the story that I heard was that 0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:48.320 you were in a band called the Pricks. I believe, 0:04:48.520 --> 0:04:53.000 and either it's kind of like you know a modern 0:04:53.040 --> 0:04:56.920 showed time at the Apollo story where the opening actor 0:04:57.120 --> 0:04:59.440 or another act brings all their fans down. 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:01.400 They were heckling you guys. 0:05:01.800 --> 0:05:05.600 You guys only did like two songs, and then to 0:05:05.600 --> 0:05:08.240 give revenge on the other band, your dad came down 0:05:08.320 --> 0:05:10.839 dressed as a cop trying to shut the show down 0:05:11.040 --> 0:05:12.040 or something like that. 0:05:12.400 --> 0:05:15.880 Nothing like that happened. That was that's the story. 0:05:16.080 --> 0:05:19.359 If that was an urban legend or for real. 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:24.880 That's an urban legend. But in the sort of theatrical 0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:30.159 punk rock pandemonium of making a show more exciting, it 0:05:30.279 --> 0:05:33.080 is possible that my dad dressed as a cop to 0:05:33.160 --> 0:05:36.760 stop the show, our show, not to affect anyone else 0:05:36.920 --> 0:05:39.800 because it would have. It just created a something. I 0:05:39.800 --> 0:05:43.280 can remember the time we did a show where we 0:05:43.320 --> 0:05:46.760 worked it out for the sprinkler, the fire sprinklers to 0:05:46.760 --> 0:05:50.120 go off during the show and just create a general 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:51.800 sense of pandemonium in the room. 0:05:52.520 --> 0:05:54.680 And what were you were you a what instrument did 0:05:54.720 --> 0:05:55.440 you play in the band? 0:05:55.920 --> 0:06:00.360 Guitar? Are you guitarists? Okay, got I did. I was not. 0:06:00.440 --> 0:06:02.240 I wouldn't say I was a guitarist, but I played 0:06:02.279 --> 0:06:04.320 the guitar. You played the guitar. 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:07.200 Being being as though we rarely get guests on the 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:10.640 show that were really really of age, and I mean 0:06:10.720 --> 0:06:13.159 like in their in their early twenties, at least in 0:06:14.040 --> 0:06:16.560 New York City. Much as much is made about the 0:06:16.640 --> 0:06:21.320 legend of of what nightlife culture was in New York 0:06:21.360 --> 0:06:25.480 City because you had like one foot plan in CBGB's 0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:29.080 I don't know about your history of Dancittaria or those 0:06:29.600 --> 0:06:32.279 hip hop clubs at the time, but he just briefly 0:06:32.320 --> 0:06:36.839 described what the environment was like in the first half 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:39.240 of the eighties as far as club life is concerned, Like, 0:06:39.760 --> 0:06:41.440 do you see it with fond memories? 0:06:41.480 --> 0:06:41.640 Now? 0:06:41.760 --> 0:06:43.240 Was it the best time ever? 0:06:43.320 --> 0:06:44.839 Are you one of those people that are like ah 0:06:44.880 --> 0:06:47.400 Man New York in the early eighties, there's nothing like 0:06:47.440 --> 0:06:51.000 it ever, like it these romanticized feelings about it. 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:53.800 Yes, it was an incredible time and we would go 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:58.080 out every night and uh, there was very little hip 0:06:58.080 --> 0:07:01.000 hop at that time. You couldn't really see hip hop. 0:07:01.000 --> 0:07:02.720 You could only see hip hop one night a week. 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:05.720 But we went out every night and you would see 0:07:08.400 --> 0:07:14.080 there was a thriving dance music scene that would have 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:18.280 had like groups like Liquid Liquid and ESG and conk 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:21.920 Oh Wow. You got to see them in person, all everybody. 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:22.640 I saw everyone. 0:07:22.720 --> 0:07:23.360 What were they like? 0:07:24.000 --> 0:07:24.640 Incredible? 0:07:24.920 --> 0:07:26.560 Like ESG, what were they like? 0:07:26.880 --> 0:07:29.200 It was just all around the base. It was sort 0:07:29.240 --> 0:07:31.840 of like a if you think about it looking back, 0:07:31.880 --> 0:07:34.160 it would be you'd say it was a pretty boring show. 0:07:35.160 --> 0:07:37.960 But the group was incredible. But it wasn't like a show. 0:07:38.120 --> 0:07:42.080 It wasn't a show like putting on a show. It 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:44.960 was like people in a band standing on stage and 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:49.720 playing their songs. So it wasn't theatrical in any way. ESG. 0:07:49.800 --> 0:07:51.520 As I recall, I think I saw them play at 0:07:51.560 --> 0:07:56.320 Danceteria if I remember correctly, wow wow. But we would 0:07:56.320 --> 0:07:58.440 go like if a band was playing at Irving Plaza, 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:01.000 we'd go to Irving Plaza. If a band playing at 0:08:01.040 --> 0:08:04.320 the Mud Club, we'd go to the Mud Club. Maxis 0:08:04.400 --> 0:08:07.440 Kansas City. I caught the tail end of Maxis Kansas City. 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:11.040 I saw James White and the Blacks play there. I 0:08:11.080 --> 0:08:17.200 saw Devo play there. I saw Wayne County maybe Jane County. 0:08:17.200 --> 0:08:21.160 At that time. I saw so many great shows. I 0:08:21.160 --> 0:08:23.320 saw The Bad Brains play at CBGB's, I saw the 0:08:23.320 --> 0:08:25.720 Bad Blaine's Brains play at Irving Plaza. I saw a 0:08:25.720 --> 0:08:30.640 minor threat play at Irving Plaza. I saw the Cramps, 0:08:30.680 --> 0:08:34.600 which was my very first technically punk rock show at 0:08:34.600 --> 0:08:37.920 Irving Plaza, and then there'd be a gig at the Garden. 0:08:37.960 --> 0:08:42.600 I remember seeing David Bowie at Madison Square Garden in 0:08:42.640 --> 0:08:45.600 the same night seeing the Bad Brains after at CBGB's. 0:08:45.679 --> 0:08:50.760 That would be a typical. It was an incredible time 0:08:50.920 --> 0:08:53.920 to be a fan of music, and there was both 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:58.480 this live performance scene of music, and then there was 0:08:58.520 --> 0:09:02.320 also this incredible dance music scene with places like Dance 0:09:02.320 --> 0:09:08.160 Atyria then Area the garage was still going on, so 0:09:08.440 --> 0:09:13.080 really you could you could get very different experiences, even 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:15.800 on the same night, going from club to club. And 0:09:15.840 --> 0:09:19.400 then when hip hop started bubbling, the only place you 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:23.240 could really see it downtown was at Nagrill, which was 0:09:23.320 --> 0:09:29.640 a reggae club on Avenue A. I believe I remember correctly. 0:09:29.679 --> 0:09:30.600 I think it was either. 0:09:30.880 --> 0:09:35.160 Sadly anyway first making restaurant down. 0:09:35.080 --> 0:09:35.880 A flight of stairs. 0:09:36.000 --> 0:09:40.360 Is it still there, Yeah, it's still there, but it's. 0:09:41.559 --> 0:09:44.280 Shadow of what it shadow of what it used to be. 0:09:45.080 --> 0:09:46.720 But that's the place that I used to go to 0:09:46.720 --> 0:09:52.480 see Jazzy j and uh Africa, Islam and Uh, Busy 0:09:52.559 --> 0:09:57.080 Bee and Treacherous three and everybody played there and it 0:09:57.160 --> 0:10:00.920 was one night a week Tuesday, KLB Productions, Cool Lady Blue, 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:04.000 And then when it got big, after it got big, 0:10:04.559 --> 0:10:06.760 then they moved it to the Roxy and that was 0:10:06.840 --> 0:10:08.240 one night a week with the Rocks. I went to 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:10.880 the Roxy the first night ever that it was hip hop, 0:10:11.080 --> 0:10:13.480 and it was this giant roller rink with maybe I 0:10:13.480 --> 0:10:15.640 don't know, there were maybe fifty of us there for 0:10:15.720 --> 0:10:18.680 the first night, and then it ended up just watching 0:10:18.720 --> 0:10:21.640 it grow every week and get bigger and bigger and 0:10:21.640 --> 0:10:25.360 bigger until it became what it became. 0:10:25.600 --> 0:10:30.440 You know, So I know about your dorm being def 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:33.839 Jam's headquarters, But what was your major at NYU when 0:10:33.840 --> 0:10:34.520 you were attending. 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:38.200 I started as a philosophy major, and after two years 0:10:38.240 --> 0:10:40.960 I switched to film and television because, as I said, 0:10:40.960 --> 0:10:44.199 I was planning on going to law school. You don't 0:10:44.200 --> 0:10:49.000 need a particular the degree you have undergraduate degree doesn't 0:10:49.000 --> 0:10:51.920 matter to get into law school. And most of my 0:10:52.040 --> 0:10:54.600 friends that I liked hanging out with were in film 0:10:54.640 --> 0:10:58.640 school and that just seemed more fun than the liberal 0:10:58.760 --> 0:11:00.800 arts side that I was that I started on. So 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:02.800 I just switched over, since it didn't matter. 0:11:03.240 --> 0:11:09.240 What year was def Jam as a punk label started first, Wait. 0:11:09.200 --> 0:11:14.040 Year eighty three, eighty four, something like that. 0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:16.680 What were the who were the artist or the label? 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:19.800 At the time, the only records that I made of 0:11:19.840 --> 0:11:23.560 my own band, all there was was hose hosc and 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:28.040 there was a twelve inch and a seven inch, a 0:11:28.080 --> 0:11:32.320 twelve inch EP and a seven inch. That's all there was. 0:11:32.480 --> 0:11:36.840 And then I made my first hip hop record, which 0:11:36.920 --> 0:11:39.680 was It's Yours, which and I'll tell you the story 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:42.760 of how that came about because it's interesting. If you 0:11:42.800 --> 0:11:44.560 want again, if you want to hear it, I'll tell you. 0:11:45.200 --> 0:11:48.680 Yes, Yes, we're rabbit Hole Central, We're waiting time. 0:11:49.440 --> 0:11:51.720 My favorite group at the time were The Treacherous Three. 0:11:52.240 --> 0:11:54.640 And I didn't know anything at all about the record business. 0:11:54.679 --> 0:11:56.960 I didn't know that there were I didn't know what 0:11:57.000 --> 0:12:00.199 a producer did. I didn't know that there were record companies. 0:12:00.240 --> 0:12:03.240 I didn't know that people had contracts. I literally knew 0:12:03.280 --> 0:12:06.440 nothing other than I love music more than anything. I 0:12:06.480 --> 0:12:10.000 read everything I could read about music. I read even Billboard, 0:12:10.000 --> 0:12:12.520 which was a weird thing for a kid to read 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:14.880 when I was even in you know, sixth grade, seventh grade, 0:12:14.880 --> 0:12:17.880 I would read Billboard just because there might be a 0:12:17.960 --> 0:12:21.680 little story about an artist I liked, and it never 0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:24.480 made like I was never really interested in what it said. 0:12:24.480 --> 0:12:26.920 But I just wanted to learn anything there was to 0:12:27.000 --> 0:12:29.600 learn about anyone that I liked in music, So if 0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:32.200 I saw their name in an article, I had to 0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:36.400 read it. I reached out to After the show at Nagrill, 0:12:36.880 --> 0:12:41.760 I reached out to Kumo D. Kumo Du is my 0:12:41.760 --> 0:12:45.439 favorite MC, and I gave him my number and I said, 0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:47.360 let's get together and chat. 0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:47.559 Now. 0:12:47.640 --> 0:12:50.319 Kumo D was going to school on Long Island, so 0:12:50.320 --> 0:12:53.839 they were all like college age at this time. And 0:12:53.880 --> 0:12:56.679 then Kumo D came to visit me at the dorm. 0:12:56.920 --> 0:13:01.679 That was my first attempt at being involved in this 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:05.160 thing that I loved, and I said they had been 0:13:05.200 --> 0:13:09.360 making records on Enjoy Records, which I loved, and then 0:13:09.679 --> 0:13:13.000 they made their first thing, the first thing that came out, 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:15.160 if I remember correctly, I'm not sure the timing of this, 0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:18.280 but I heard a treacherous three song that I thought 0:13:18.360 --> 0:13:20.440 wasn't as good as all the ones that I liked. 0:13:21.240 --> 0:13:24.080 Was it Yes we Can Can on sugar Hill might 0:13:24.120 --> 0:13:26.480 have been. I didn't like that yeah, yeah, so I 0:13:26.559 --> 0:13:28.120 might have made so high. 0:13:28.200 --> 0:13:32.599 So as a fan, I said, let's get together. I 0:13:32.840 --> 0:13:35.000 just want to talk to you about this music. You know, 0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:37.880 I'm a fan. I want to talk to you. And 0:13:37.920 --> 0:13:41.400 then I said, and then again I was I had 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:45.840 great confidence in my taste just because I really you know, 0:13:45.880 --> 0:13:48.280 I truly felt it with all of my heart. And 0:13:48.480 --> 0:13:50.400 this was in a time when not a lot of 0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:53.640 people were listening to this music. It was a tiny 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:55.600 underground scene at the time. You have to keep in 0:13:55.600 --> 0:14:01.000 mind this is there were the first round of def 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:03.840 jam records. We might have pressed up, you know, three 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:07.200 thousand copies. You know, that might be the starting run 0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:09.760 of a record. So that's how big the world of 0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:11.040 hip hop was at that time. 0:14:11.720 --> 0:14:16.280 By this point, Uh is this pre or post? It's 0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:20.040 yours like this that's. 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:21.760 Leading up, this is leading up to it. There's no 0:14:21.960 --> 0:14:22.800 I've done nothing. 0:14:23.440 --> 0:14:25.840 Oh so he just he just befriended you on trust, 0:14:25.920 --> 0:14:27.400 not knowing anything about your. 0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:30.400 No, he didn't even befriend me on trust. He's just 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:33.320 like somebody cares in a time when nobody cares. Why 0:14:33.400 --> 0:14:37.480 nobody cares? You understand, it is a tiny little world 0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:41.640 that nobody was interested in. I was interested. I could 0:14:41.720 --> 0:14:45.000 speak about it with passion because I had that passion. 0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:49.320 So there weren't that many heads at that moment in time. 0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:53.680 So I get together with Kulmo D and I say, okay, 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:57.640 the records you made on Enjoy are great. Now there's 0:14:57.680 --> 0:14:59.640 this new thing. It's not as good as the rest. 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:03.880 Let's figure out together. I'm your fan. I don't want 0:15:03.920 --> 0:15:06.200 it to go that way. I don't want it to 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:09.120 get worse. Let's figure out how to make it get better. Yeah, 0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:12.880 and let's figure out. I swear it's true. Let's figure 0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:15.560 out how to do this great. And he said, I 0:15:15.600 --> 0:15:17.320 would love to do this, but I can't do this. 0:15:17.400 --> 0:15:19.320 We're signed to sugar Hill. I didn't Again, I had 0:15:19.400 --> 0:15:21.400 no idea. I didn't know anything. I didn't know what 0:15:21.440 --> 0:15:23.560 a producer was. I didn't know what that there were contracts, 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:26.240 but he said, we're signed a sugar Hill, but you 0:15:26.280 --> 0:15:29.240 should talk to Special K. He's in the group, and 0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:33.760 he writes he might have an idea. So he introduced 0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:36.480 me to Special K. Got together Special K, and Special 0:15:36.520 --> 0:15:40.000 K said, okay, I like the idea. And I was 0:15:40.040 --> 0:15:43.000 already programming beats, so I played him some beats. On 0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:48.600 my eight oh eight, Special K said, Okay, I wrote, 0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:51.320 I just wrote this record called It's yours. I can't 0:15:51.320 --> 0:15:54.520 do it because I'm signed to sugar Hill, but Tilura 0:15:54.600 --> 0:15:58.520 can do it. He's where we're related. And that's the 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:01.960 way it really happened, me wanting to work with Treacher's three, 0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:06.560 them saying me not knowing, me not knowing anything about business, 0:16:06.880 --> 0:16:09.880 and them basically saying, this is the guy who can 0:16:09.920 --> 0:16:12.560 do the song, and Special K wrote the lyrics. 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:13.320 It was. 0:16:13.360 --> 0:16:19.680 It was essentially like a Special K solo record lyrically. 0:16:20.240 --> 0:16:24.200 What and even lyrically that was really ahead of his 0:16:24.320 --> 0:16:25.800 time even back then as. 0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:27.280 It was incredible. 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:31.400 Story just what ever? 0:16:31.440 --> 0:16:31.680 Else? 0:16:31.720 --> 0:16:35.000 I don't know it's yours? 0:16:35.160 --> 0:16:39.960 Wait, Rick, are you even familiar about the Tela Rock 0:16:40.080 --> 0:16:41.240 situation right now? 0:16:42.280 --> 0:16:45.440 I've heard a little bit recently. 0:16:45.720 --> 0:16:48.960 I don't know what's going on. It's in Okay. 0:16:50.360 --> 0:16:52.920 I won't do any I won't do any justice to 0:16:52.960 --> 0:16:56.640 the story. I'll just say that if you google Tela Rock. 0:16:56.760 --> 0:17:01.600 GQ magazine. GQ magazine, damn near gave Tela Rock a 0:17:02.360 --> 0:17:07.840 seven page feature story, long story short. I meet this woman, 0:17:07.920 --> 0:17:13.800 this like this high society hoity toity, upscale woman from 0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:16.200 like the West Side, and she comes to me and says, hey, 0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:20.399 I'm doing Think of like the woman the woman in 0:17:20.480 --> 0:17:23.439 Wild Style, like totally a fish out of water, right, 0:17:23.480 --> 0:17:26.120 older white woman comes to me. He says, hey, I'm 0:17:26.200 --> 0:17:29.960 doing a biopic or rapper Tila Rock, And already I'm turned. 0:17:30.000 --> 0:17:33.960 I'm like, okay, he's trying to scam you, Like, okay, 0:17:33.960 --> 0:17:36.399 whatever biopic because I'm like, what is it about Tela 0:17:36.480 --> 0:17:37.760 Rock that deserves a biopic? 0:17:38.240 --> 0:17:41.520 Three years later, there's a story in. 0:17:41.520 --> 0:17:45.400 GQ magazine that I didn't know, which basically he went 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:49.320 into a coma and because he had no ID or 0:17:49.359 --> 0:17:53.240 anything on him. Think of like Michael Jackson's character on 0:17:53.280 --> 0:17:57.080 The Simpsons. He winds up in this old folks home 0:17:57.119 --> 0:17:59.080 in the Bronx. They don't know who he is, or 0:17:59.160 --> 0:18:01.920 he doesn't know who he is, knows nothing. I think 0:18:01.960 --> 0:18:05.639 it about in months or so, his family finally locates him, 0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:08.600 but he's comfortable with his life at this old folks 0:18:08.680 --> 0:18:11.120 home and now they have to explain to him who 0:18:11.200 --> 0:18:11.639 he was. 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:14.040 You were once you were the first. 0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:17.840 Rapper's brutal attack a mirror. 0:18:19.080 --> 0:18:22.000 But the headline is the man who forgot he was 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:23.760 a rap legend, right, which is pretty great. 0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:27.000 I don't know how he got into that coma, but 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:30.240 I do know that he was in a coma and 0:18:30.359 --> 0:18:33.080 he didn't know who or what he was, and he 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:37.720 slowly had to be taught everything about himself. But now 0:18:37.760 --> 0:18:40.920 he just has this new life and as the young guy, 0:18:41.200 --> 0:18:43.720 as the young stud in a nursing home. 0:18:44.080 --> 0:18:46.600 Wow. Yeah, and he likes his life there. 0:18:46.960 --> 0:18:49.920 But it's they say that other residents are mostly elderly 0:18:50.040 --> 0:18:52.200 Jewish and Yiddish speakers, so that must be. 0:18:52.320 --> 0:18:55.520 Yeah, like the word about like who's this black guy? 0:18:55.560 --> 0:18:58.120 And are are missing? They're like, well, he was once 0:18:58.160 --> 0:19:01.400 a rapper on Russell Simmons label like that sort it's 0:19:01.440 --> 0:19:05.040 the crazy story you ever heard, but it's yeah. I 0:19:05.080 --> 0:19:07.080 was floored once I seen it. Now I wish I 0:19:07.080 --> 0:19:10.119 wouldn't have dismissed that woman, like that movie has to 0:19:10.119 --> 0:19:10.560 be made. 0:19:10.680 --> 0:19:11.520 Nah, that's a movie. 0:19:11.640 --> 0:19:12.160 Sounds great. 0:19:13.080 --> 0:19:15.960 Yeah, that's him now. Yeah, it's a crazy movie. 0:19:16.160 --> 0:19:18.480 And it looks exactly the same. By the way, it's 0:19:18.520 --> 0:19:19.680 exactly what you looked like. Then. 0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:22.119 How old were you when you did that record? 0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:26.399 Twenty shit, maybe maybe nineteen, I don't know. 0:19:26.840 --> 0:19:29.119 Yeah, and that was just you on the on the 0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:31.040 eight away and then what did y'all track it on? 0:19:31.800 --> 0:19:34.399 If you remember, we tracked it this There was a 0:19:34.440 --> 0:19:38.280 studio that advertised in the Village Voice called power Play 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:42.240 in Long Island City, which was the cheapest studio you 0:19:42.240 --> 0:19:45.960 could go into, and we recorded it. I recorded my 0:19:46.000 --> 0:19:49.000 punk rock band there before, and then we recorded that 0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:53.320 it's yours there and we recorded it, you know, in 0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:57.359 a couple of hours, pretty pretty quick. Another piece, the 0:19:57.400 --> 0:19:59.800 reason Jazzy J. The reason it is Telarak and Jazzy 0:19:59.840 --> 0:20:03.800 J was again as a fan of hip hop, as 0:20:03.800 --> 0:20:07.480 someone going to the club. The whole idea always of 0:20:07.960 --> 0:20:11.439 the records that I made were that the energy in 0:20:11.480 --> 0:20:14.359 the club was a very specific thing and the records 0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:17.119 that were coming out didn't sound like what the club 0:20:17.200 --> 0:20:21.320 sounded like, and a fan now had had the record 0:20:21.400 --> 0:20:23.159 sounded the same. I don't know that I would have 0:20:23.240 --> 0:20:26.080 ever made a hip hop record at all, because it 0:20:26.160 --> 0:20:29.000 was more just I want to hear this. I want 0:20:29.040 --> 0:20:31.640 to hear what I'm hearing at the club, but nobody's 0:20:31.720 --> 0:20:35.800 making that record, so I made it to be able 0:20:35.880 --> 0:20:38.240 to hear it. But that's all it was. It wasn't 0:20:38.480 --> 0:20:42.840 there was no Uh. I had no expectation that anybody 0:20:42.880 --> 0:20:45.080 else would like it or that it would have any success. 0:20:45.080 --> 0:20:47.560 It was never about you know, you could never assume 0:20:47.600 --> 0:20:50.199 that in this little world that it was that we 0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:54.040 were coming from. It's like anyone who was making music 0:20:54.080 --> 0:20:56.520 at that time clearly did it out of the love 0:20:56.520 --> 0:20:58.880 of it, because it was no upside. 0:20:58.960 --> 0:21:01.240 Yeah, there was no industry read that was Bill. 0:21:02.680 --> 0:21:05.800 New And what was the fundamental difference between the club 0:21:05.880 --> 0:21:07.960 and the and the record. What were you trying to capture? 0:21:08.080 --> 0:21:10.680 Was it just the I'll you tell you no? 0:21:11.359 --> 0:21:11.800 Okay? 0:21:12.000 --> 0:21:14.800 Because even on the a cappella version of that record. 0:21:15.280 --> 0:21:19.200 In my mind, there's a million people in the room, 0:21:20.200 --> 0:21:21.840 do it like because you're the king of the who 0:21:22.680 --> 0:21:23.600 ho like that? 0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:26.200 That that sort of thing, like the people in the background. 0:21:26.600 --> 0:21:28.680 Yes, how many people were in the room when that 0:21:29.080 --> 0:21:30.280 those party noise were made? 0:21:31.400 --> 0:21:34.200 Four or five? Five or six of us? Two times? 0:21:35.720 --> 0:21:39.840 Maybe maybe three? Was that Rock one of those people? Absolutely? 0:21:40.480 --> 0:21:40.960 Okay? 0:21:41.200 --> 0:21:47.840 Okay? At yeah, me Ad Rock, probably Special k Jazzy 0:21:48.000 --> 0:21:51.040 j who everybody who was in the hit, maybe even 0:21:51.080 --> 0:21:53.480 the engineer of the session, like any people we had 0:21:53.520 --> 0:21:58.520 on hand to get the the that party vibe. So Okay, 0:21:58.560 --> 0:22:02.840 so let me explain how I heard what I heard 0:22:02.840 --> 0:22:07.400 different about the club versus the records, and a lot 0:22:07.440 --> 0:22:11.280 of this has to do with me not knowing anything 0:22:12.880 --> 0:22:17.840 the way that rap records had been made up until 0:22:17.840 --> 0:22:20.719 that point. Those records were made by people who had 0:22:20.760 --> 0:22:25.920 made other records. So at the time, if you were 0:22:25.920 --> 0:22:31.240 going to make a club record, it would be like heartbeat, 0:22:31.600 --> 0:22:35.200 it would be a band. It would be a band 0:22:35.320 --> 0:22:40.960 record with a woman singing R and B. That would 0:22:40.960 --> 0:22:44.760 be the club record. And then when the people who 0:22:44.800 --> 0:22:49.760 didn't understand hip hop but understood making club records saw 0:22:50.200 --> 0:22:54.439 this new thing, rap music, they thought, Okay, we'll do 0:22:55.400 --> 0:22:59.840 the band doing the R and B song, and we'll 0:22:59.880 --> 0:23:01.800 have the guy rap on it instead of having the 0:23:01.840 --> 0:23:05.760 girl sing on it. And that's what hip hop records 0:23:05.760 --> 0:23:08.840 sounded like. But that's not what the club sounded like. 0:23:09.320 --> 0:23:15.360 The club sounded like DJ culture, drum machines, maybe not 0:23:15.520 --> 0:23:18.560 so many drum machines, but some at that point more 0:23:18.680 --> 0:23:21.240 DJ culture. It was really about the DJ cutting it up. 0:23:21.920 --> 0:23:23.760 So if you went to see if you went to 0:23:23.760 --> 0:23:27.800 see The Treacher three live, it wasn't a band playing 0:23:27.800 --> 0:23:30.920 their song like it was on even the enjoy records. 0:23:31.320 --> 0:23:35.280 It was the DJ cutting up the records with the 0:23:35.400 --> 0:23:40.920 MC's and that's what that's how I understood hip hop 0:23:41.080 --> 0:23:48.480 was this homemade music with rapping. So that's and that's 0:23:48.520 --> 0:23:50.760 why Jazzy why it was important for me, Like I 0:23:50.800 --> 0:23:54.480 would never want to sign. I would never think of 0:23:54.560 --> 0:23:59.920 doing a Tela rock record without having a DJ associated 0:23:59.920 --> 0:24:03.119 with it, because it's like, what made it hip hop 0:24:03.560 --> 0:24:07.199 was the two of them. It was the band, you know, 0:24:07.520 --> 0:24:10.879 together they were the Beatles, right, but by himself it 0:24:10.960 --> 0:24:12.840 was just to say it was another singer, you know, 0:24:12.840 --> 0:24:16.440 it was Frank Sinatra. It's it's different. So I saw 0:24:16.480 --> 0:24:20.080 it as a group and the music was an important 0:24:20.080 --> 0:24:25.000 part of for me. The DJ culture was as important 0:24:25.080 --> 0:24:29.040 as the MC always it was always both. So that's 0:24:29.240 --> 0:24:31.880 and then I and Jesse. J was my favorite DJ, 0:24:31.960 --> 0:24:33.879 and I asked him if you would be on the 0:24:33.920 --> 0:24:36.040 record and join the group with Special K. That's how 0:24:36.240 --> 0:24:37.080 that's how it happened. 0:24:37.920 --> 0:24:41.399 Wow, was it hard to get because you know the 0:24:41.440 --> 0:24:45.399 stories that I've heard from Russell's reaction to the record 0:24:45.560 --> 0:24:47.680 was that it was hard to believe that this white 0:24:47.680 --> 0:24:53.800 boy made such a definitive black album. So how how 0:24:53.840 --> 0:24:56.919 how hard was it to convince people that you're the 0:24:57.040 --> 0:24:59.080 guy that made it's yours? 0:24:59.119 --> 0:25:01.000 Like was it heart cell or. 0:25:01.880 --> 0:25:04.679 The whole thing was so strange, like it was the 0:25:04.760 --> 0:25:08.600 record was already a weird record. Yes, Russell always referred 0:25:08.640 --> 0:25:12.000 to it as more black than anything else. But to me, 0:25:12.080 --> 0:25:15.040 it was just more representative of the club, you know, 0:25:15.040 --> 0:25:19.560 it was more like it was like a documentary of 0:25:19.600 --> 0:25:21.280 what I experienced going to the club. 0:25:21.840 --> 0:25:24.840 All Right, So since we're talking about your eight o 0:25:24.960 --> 0:25:28.000 eight period, and I guess our listeners, it should be 0:25:28.040 --> 0:25:32.160 noted that, really, I mean, yes, I know that there's 0:25:32.200 --> 0:25:35.600 a tie between like you and Arthur Baker. That Tela 0:25:35.720 --> 0:25:39.680 Rock single was like sort of a cross between def 0:25:39.800 --> 0:25:44.600 Jam and it wasn't start whatever Party Time? 0:25:44.720 --> 0:25:45.320 Party Time? 0:25:45.560 --> 0:25:49.440 Wasn't that one of the author breakers Offspring Levels as well? 0:25:49.520 --> 0:25:51.679 At the way I can tell you how that happened 0:25:51.680 --> 0:25:53.240 as well, which was I was going to put it 0:25:53.280 --> 0:25:56.760 out independently myself, the way I put out my punk 0:25:56.840 --> 0:25:59.439 Rock Records with nine to nine Records, which is a 0:25:59.480 --> 0:26:06.600 record store or really cool independent record store on Google Street, Yeah, DSG, 0:26:06.880 --> 0:26:11.679 and they put out Bush Tetras and Liquid Liquid. They 0:26:11.760 --> 0:26:15.119 put out the record that the message was based on actually. 0:26:15.160 --> 0:26:16.600 Yeah, I have those records. Yeah. 0:26:16.960 --> 0:26:19.720 So the guy who ran that record store was sort 0:26:19.720 --> 0:26:22.960 of my mentor in that he walked me through the process. 0:26:23.000 --> 0:26:25.760 He's like, Okay, here's a list of studios you could 0:26:25.800 --> 0:26:28.359 go to. Here's a place you could have the vinyl press, 0:26:28.480 --> 0:26:30.520 here's the place you could have the labels made. The 0:26:30.600 --> 0:26:33.400 labels were made in Brooklyn, the vinyl was pressed in 0:26:33.560 --> 0:26:38.200 I think Long Island City, the covers were printed in Canada, 0:26:38.440 --> 0:26:41.639 and he kind of walked me through, here's people who 0:26:41.680 --> 0:26:44.800 could do mastering for you, and he just walked me 0:26:44.840 --> 0:26:46.720 through how to do it because I didn't know anything. 0:26:46.760 --> 0:26:48.720 As I said, So I did that first for my 0:26:48.760 --> 0:26:50.840 punk rock records and I was about to do that 0:26:51.320 --> 0:26:54.640 with its yours when Jazzy called me because they were 0:26:54.640 --> 0:26:57.080 making some movie that Arthur Baker was involved in. I 0:26:57.080 --> 0:26:58.840 don't know what it was. I can't remember what it was, 0:26:58.960 --> 0:27:02.080 Street Street, and he said, Hey, just met this guy, 0:27:02.200 --> 0:27:05.480 Arthur Baker. He wants to hear our record. He's got 0:27:05.480 --> 0:27:07.879 a label, maybe he can help us. And then I 0:27:07.920 --> 0:27:10.320 went up and I met Arthur Baker at Shakedown Studio, 0:27:10.359 --> 0:27:11.879 which is where we ended up doing a lot of 0:27:11.880 --> 0:27:14.080 work in the future as well mixing. I think we 0:27:14.200 --> 0:27:18.040 mixed half of License to Ill there and MCA from 0:27:18.040 --> 0:27:21.600 the BC Boys work there. He worked as a as 0:27:21.640 --> 0:27:26.320 like a tape op assistant there, assistant engineer. So I 0:27:26.400 --> 0:27:29.199 went up. I met Arthur for the first time and 0:27:29.240 --> 0:27:32.359 he was already, you know, like a successful person in 0:27:32.400 --> 0:27:35.679 the music business. And again I'm still this kid in 0:27:35.680 --> 0:27:39.520 school playing the song. He's like, this is great. His 0:27:39.640 --> 0:27:43.880 main label was called street Wise street Wise and he said, 0:27:44.680 --> 0:27:47.399 and it really yeah, it doesn't really fit street Wise, 0:27:47.440 --> 0:27:49.080 but we could put it on Party Time, which is 0:27:49.119 --> 0:27:52.679 like a sub label. Said fine, and he bought the 0:27:52.720 --> 0:27:55.200 record to out oubt and I said, the only thing 0:27:55.280 --> 0:27:57.199 is it has to have the deaf Jam logo on it. 0:27:58.760 --> 0:27:59.639 Even though it came over. 0:28:00.480 --> 0:28:02.440 I drew that looking, you drew that looking. 0:28:03.280 --> 0:28:07.000 I drew the Yeah, I did. My aunt Carol worked 0:28:07.040 --> 0:28:11.840 at Este Lauder in the creative creative services department, and 0:28:11.840 --> 0:28:13.600 I would hang out there a lot, and I used 0:28:13.600 --> 0:28:16.280 press type and I made it on a day that 0:28:16.359 --> 0:28:19.840 either they were closed or just when nobody was around 0:28:19.840 --> 0:28:24.679 at one of the designers tables, just experimenting with different things. 0:28:24.760 --> 0:28:28.600 And the reason the reason it has the big DJ 0:28:29.720 --> 0:28:34.440 was to make that point of like, this is DJ culture. 0:28:35.000 --> 0:28:37.399 So I thought having the big DJ in the logo 0:28:38.040 --> 0:28:41.000 quietly told the story of what the label was about. 0:28:41.560 --> 0:28:44.040 Was that a one thing Willie drawing or was that like, okay, 0:28:44.080 --> 0:28:46.600 on the fifth one, I liked this one. 0:28:46.840 --> 0:28:49.800 I tried a lot of things. I mean I tried 0:28:49.800 --> 0:28:51.720 a lot of things, but it happened pretty quick. It 0:28:51.760 --> 0:28:53.960 came in, you know, came in a day. I drew 0:28:54.000 --> 0:28:57.960 it a bunch of like uppercase lowercase, what looks good 0:28:58.000 --> 0:29:00.080 and moving it around and then found I. 0:29:00.080 --> 0:29:02.240 Still have your sketches of it? Or are they long? 0:29:02.280 --> 0:29:02.680 A think? 0:29:02.760 --> 0:29:05.480 So? I probably long got it. I don't. It's possible 0:29:05.520 --> 0:29:07.320 that they exist because I had a lot of stuff 0:29:07.320 --> 0:29:11.000 at my parents' house and then some of that stuff 0:29:11.080 --> 0:29:13.560 is in a in storage somewhere, but I've never looked 0:29:13.560 --> 0:29:13.880 at it. 0:29:14.320 --> 0:29:15.440 I was going to ask, what does it feel? 0:29:15.440 --> 0:29:18.320 Because I've heard a Mirror and Tarik say that sometimes 0:29:18.600 --> 0:29:20.480 they went on deaf Jam just because they wanted to 0:29:20.520 --> 0:29:24.040 be able to have that logo affiliated with their name. 0:29:25.280 --> 0:29:27.320 That's gotta feel crazy just for my drawing. 0:29:27.680 --> 0:29:32.800 That's yeah, Like you know, I in class, I draw 0:29:32.880 --> 0:29:38.520 that logo on imaginary roots albums that didn't exist yet, 0:29:38.760 --> 0:29:42.080 like hanging that shit on my wall. 0:29:42.800 --> 0:29:45.320 I probably did exactly the same thing, and then it 0:29:45.440 --> 0:29:47.920 ended up becoming you know, they weren't roots albums, but 0:29:47.920 --> 0:29:51.080 they were whatever it was. It was just like playing 0:29:51.160 --> 0:29:53.280 with how do we say that, what's the name going 0:29:53.360 --> 0:29:54.520 to be? What's it going to look like? 0:29:55.040 --> 0:29:55.760 How does it work? 0:29:56.400 --> 0:30:00.480 In eighty three eighty four? How expensive are are eight 0:30:00.440 --> 0:30:03.840 to weight drum machines? I don't know, something that you 0:30:03.880 --> 0:30:04.920 casually come across. 0:30:05.560 --> 0:30:07.920 It's something that I luckily came across because there was 0:30:07.960 --> 0:30:10.960 a guy in my dorm room who was in an 0:30:11.000 --> 0:30:15.240 alternative rock band called the Speedies, and he had that 0:30:15.320 --> 0:30:17.840 machine and he lent he lent me the eight a 0:30:17.840 --> 0:30:20.280 weight drum machine. That's how I came across it. 0:30:20.600 --> 0:30:23.680 So were you able to program and save beats or 0:30:23.760 --> 0:30:26.320 is it just like you turn on you show what 0:30:26.360 --> 0:30:26.920 you could do. 0:30:27.360 --> 0:30:27.880 And print it. 0:30:28.840 --> 0:30:33.960 You could make twenty or so pre program beats. 0:30:34.560 --> 0:30:38.960 So how long is the conversation with Russell Simmons before 0:30:39.480 --> 0:30:41.720 you realize that you're going to go into partnership with 0:30:41.800 --> 0:30:43.240 him and start the label officially? 0:30:43.880 --> 0:30:46.360 I met Russell at a party for a Graffiti Rock, 0:30:46.560 --> 0:30:52.880 that that TV Wow where Treacher's Three and run. Yeah, 0:30:52.960 --> 0:30:56.080 and I went there, you know, hoping that Treacher's Three 0:30:56.080 --> 0:30:58.280 would be there because they were, you know, my favorite group. 0:30:59.040 --> 0:31:01.560 And this is like a party. 0:31:01.680 --> 0:31:05.000 This was an after party. And someone introduced me to 0:31:05.080 --> 0:31:07.560 Russell and I told him I made It's yours and 0:31:07.600 --> 0:31:12.360 he couldn't believe it. It's just like, no way, It's like, 0:31:12.400 --> 0:31:14.160 you're white, you didn't make that record. 0:31:15.440 --> 0:31:17.840 And again, but you have. 0:31:17.840 --> 0:31:19.400 To understand, there were there really were. 0:31:19.520 --> 0:31:19.680 Well. 0:31:19.840 --> 0:31:21.880 Tom Silverman was involved in hip hop. He was the 0:31:21.880 --> 0:31:24.200 only other white person I would say that I knew 0:31:24.280 --> 0:31:27.480 who had any relationship to hip hop at that time. 0:31:27.560 --> 0:31:31.360 Yeah, but he wasn't making beats. He was. 0:31:31.480 --> 0:31:33.920 He was really helpful. He was really helpful to us, 0:31:33.960 --> 0:31:36.720 like he was someone another Like I had these great mentors. 0:31:36.720 --> 0:31:39.520 I had the guy at nine nine Records, ed Ed Baleman, 0:31:39.640 --> 0:31:45.280 his name was and and I had to Tommy and 0:31:45.280 --> 0:31:47.160 I would call Tom's just like, hey, what do I do? 0:31:47.240 --> 0:31:50.840 Monica Lynch who worked with Tommy, like it's like what 0:31:50.880 --> 0:31:53.360 do we do? How do What's the next step? And 0:31:53.400 --> 0:31:55.080 I can remember his story. I don't think I've ever 0:31:55.120 --> 0:31:59.200 told anyone. It's interesting why I was excited about having 0:31:59.240 --> 0:32:03.480 Russell as apart. There I was walking on in front 0:32:03.520 --> 0:32:06.440 of the dorm, across the street from the dorm, turning 0:32:06.480 --> 0:32:09.320 the corner I ran into and I don't even know. 0:32:09.360 --> 0:32:11.280 This is strange because I don't know how I knew 0:32:11.320 --> 0:32:13.560 who he was. But there was a writer for the 0:32:13.640 --> 0:32:20.000 Village Voice named Aaron Fuchs. 0:32:20.040 --> 0:32:20.720 He was a writer. 0:32:21.240 --> 0:32:25.600 He was he was a writer. But listen, let me 0:32:25.680 --> 0:32:27.040 let me tell you. Let me tell you the story. 0:32:27.120 --> 0:32:29.560 So again, it's amazing the fact that I even I 0:32:29.600 --> 0:32:31.560 don't know how I knew who he was or how 0:32:31.600 --> 0:32:34.880 it worked out that I that I. But I literally 0:32:34.960 --> 0:32:37.000 went up to him on the street and said, hey, 0:32:37.080 --> 0:32:39.800 I made this record, and what do I have to 0:32:39.880 --> 0:32:41.840 do to get people to hear it? Like how do 0:32:41.880 --> 0:32:45.240 I do this? And this was it's yours. I don't 0:32:45.280 --> 0:32:46.720 even think I had there. I was just more of 0:32:46.760 --> 0:32:49.480 a conversations like how does it work? How does this work? 0:32:49.640 --> 0:32:51.520 So now I'm at the stage where because I was 0:32:51.560 --> 0:32:56.240 always comfortable asking questions, you know, I would if someone 0:32:56.320 --> 0:32:59.360 had information that I needed I was. I felt comfortable 0:32:59.440 --> 0:33:02.040 asking and sometimes they would help and sometimes they wouldn't. 0:33:02.760 --> 0:33:04.440 So I thought he was someone who might be able 0:33:04.440 --> 0:33:06.200 to help. And I just said, you know, what's the 0:33:06.240 --> 0:33:08.200 next step. How do I get people to hear this thing? 0:33:09.000 --> 0:33:14.160 And he said, you need promotion and you can't do it. 0:33:14.720 --> 0:33:18.120 And he said the only person who knows how to 0:33:18.120 --> 0:33:22.240 do promotion for hip hop records is Russell Simmons, and 0:33:22.320 --> 0:33:26.560 Russell Simmons won't do anything for anyone except his brother Run. 0:33:26.800 --> 0:33:28.360 He works with a lot of artists, but he said, 0:33:28.600 --> 0:33:33.479 unless you're Run, he won't promote your records. So it's like, Okay, 0:33:33.600 --> 0:33:36.040 I'm thinking, maybe someday I'll meet this guy Rustling. At 0:33:36.120 --> 0:33:38.520 least he'll tell me what he does, even if he 0:33:38.600 --> 0:33:42.240 won't do it just in hopes of getting the word out. 0:33:42.440 --> 0:33:44.000 I got to get to the bottom of this story. 0:33:44.040 --> 0:33:46.440 Now, if he was a writer for the Village Voice, 0:33:47.680 --> 0:33:53.520 and he too was, you know, a hopeful record mogul. 0:33:54.400 --> 0:33:57.160 Yet you know the story in the Fable of Aaron 0:33:57.320 --> 0:34:01.360 is that he would go hard and the paint ensuing 0:34:02.080 --> 0:34:04.600 any product on def jam that contained any of the 0:34:04.640 --> 0:34:05.800 samples that he owned. 0:34:06.600 --> 0:34:08.320 I would say even beyond that is that if he 0:34:08.480 --> 0:34:11.920 knew any song had the potential to be sampled, he'd 0:34:11.960 --> 0:34:13.359 try to buy up the right so that he could 0:34:13.400 --> 0:34:14.560 sue whoever sampled it. 0:34:14.800 --> 0:34:15.719 Well, yeah, that too. 0:34:15.960 --> 0:34:19.320 But I'm almost feeling like maybe he has a personal 0:34:19.360 --> 0:34:21.480 beef with Russell that none of us are aware of, 0:34:21.680 --> 0:34:26.359 because there are other samples that he could have went 0:34:26.480 --> 0:34:27.640 after that he never did. 0:34:27.719 --> 0:34:31.520 But if it was on deaf Jam, it's like like Goodfellas, 0:34:31.560 --> 0:34:32.360 fuck you pay me. 0:34:34.080 --> 0:34:36.879 They always wanted to know if that was if there 0:34:37.000 --> 0:34:39.800 was like a burnt bridge, and it's sort of like, okay, 0:34:39.960 --> 0:34:40.800 well I get you. 0:34:41.560 --> 0:34:44.240 When he told me about Russell, he was not positive 0:34:44.280 --> 0:34:47.360 about him. It was not a positive conversation, but it 0:34:47.480 --> 0:34:50.560 was just this. It was a piece of information that 0:34:50.640 --> 0:34:51.120 was helpful. 0:34:56.880 --> 0:35:00.840 There's an article that or a block that Harry Allen 0:35:00.920 --> 0:35:05.960 once wrote in in honor of your early production methods, 0:35:06.000 --> 0:35:09.640 in which you know, it's noted that you have the 0:35:10.040 --> 0:35:14.680 loudest eight h eight sounds, the loudest scratches, like your 0:35:14.680 --> 0:35:17.800 scratches on going back to Cali, Like it's just louder 0:35:17.840 --> 0:35:21.759 than everything. So even like what's your engineering process or 0:35:22.040 --> 0:35:25.000 just your whole theory on pushing it to the limit. 0:35:26.200 --> 0:35:31.040 There is none. I will say, I like, if you're 0:35:31.080 --> 0:35:34.319 gonna put something in there, I want to be able 0:35:34.360 --> 0:35:37.800 to hear it, like I want. The idea of having 0:35:37.880 --> 0:35:41.160 scratching as this sort of background element that's going on 0:35:41.239 --> 0:35:44.560 all the time is not so interesting to me. It's like, 0:35:44.600 --> 0:35:47.800 if it's gonna be there, it should be only exactly 0:35:47.800 --> 0:35:50.000 when it needs to be there, and it should be 0:35:50.200 --> 0:35:54.400 crazy loud, because in some ways it's like it's like 0:35:54.560 --> 0:35:58.560 lead guitar. You know, it's a punctuation moment. It's not 0:35:58.640 --> 0:36:01.360 a background sound. And as a rule, I'm not so 0:36:01.520 --> 0:36:05.399 into background sounds, you know. It's more about having the 0:36:05.520 --> 0:36:10.120 least amount of stuff going on, creating space where each 0:36:10.239 --> 0:36:14.240 thing that you hear, hopefully very few of them sound 0:36:14.480 --> 0:36:18.080 as clear and have as much personality as possible. And 0:36:18.120 --> 0:36:22.879 as soon as you start blanketing sounds, all of each 0:36:22.920 --> 0:36:24.440 of those sounds gets diminished. 0:36:25.080 --> 0:36:27.080 And I can hear that in your I can really 0:36:27.120 --> 0:36:31.440 hear that in your rock production Predicative, particularly on Californication, 0:36:31.920 --> 0:36:34.960 which is probably my favorite Rick Rubin produced album. 0:36:35.360 --> 0:36:37.640 How cool but nah, I love. 0:36:37.520 --> 0:36:40.040 That recormand like I when I preserved it, it was just 0:36:40.520 --> 0:36:42.319 I was taken aback by just how the way you 0:36:42.360 --> 0:36:46.239 track Anthony's vocals, like it sounded almost like to the 0:36:46.400 --> 0:36:48.560 edge of distortion but not quite and it just had 0:36:48.600 --> 0:36:50.960 that kind of grid on it and it was just 0:36:51.000 --> 0:36:51.960 really in your face. 0:36:52.239 --> 0:36:55.839 And I love that record. I just wanted to hear 0:36:56.200 --> 0:36:56.600 on that one. 0:36:57.600 --> 0:37:00.000 So you were about to tell the Rock the bell story, 0:37:00.120 --> 0:37:03.000 I think, yeah, and I'll tell you what. 0:37:02.960 --> 0:37:05.520 I remember, But but I don't remember the Bob James 0:37:05.520 --> 0:37:08.439 record ever being in the conversation. It may have been, 0:37:09.239 --> 0:37:11.560 it may have been something that Elle had been thinking 0:37:11.640 --> 0:37:15.160 and wanting to do. Oh, okay, okay, but I don't 0:37:15.160 --> 0:37:18.840 remember it. I don't remember talking about it. Yeah, I 0:37:18.880 --> 0:37:21.279 was gonna say, it's even possible that when it was 0:37:21.320 --> 0:37:25.120 time to record it, that he suggested it. And it 0:37:25.239 --> 0:37:28.000 is possible that we were already working on the run DMC, 0:37:28.360 --> 0:37:29.279 the Peter Piper song. 0:37:29.360 --> 0:37:32.400 It is possible, all right, what was your one of 0:37:32.400 --> 0:37:35.080 the one of the factors that you also used in 0:37:35.120 --> 0:37:39.400 your early production was the sound of Go Go and 0:37:39.680 --> 0:37:43.920 Rock the Bells. And then She's crafty and also you know, 0:37:44.040 --> 0:37:47.080 I'll say that one of one of the things I've 0:37:47.120 --> 0:37:52.640 done in the Quarantine Punishment is practically purchased every Go 0:37:52.640 --> 0:37:59.239 Go album made available and nothing I hate. And I 0:37:59.320 --> 0:38:01.239 know a lot of it has to do with either 0:38:01.320 --> 0:38:04.120 the studios that they record in. Either it's too clean 0:38:04.800 --> 0:38:11.560 or it's too amateurish. But Sardines, to me is probably 0:38:11.760 --> 0:38:16.919 the best. Yes, Sardines is probably the best produced Go 0:38:16.920 --> 0:38:21.359 Go record, probably second to Pump Me Up. So, first 0:38:21.400 --> 0:38:24.919 of all, Sardines is such a stripped down song. How 0:38:24.920 --> 0:38:26.400 did you record Junkyard? 0:38:26.600 --> 0:38:28.279 The drop the bombs incredible? 0:38:28.840 --> 0:38:34.040 Okay, I'll say early early Trumpel, early trumble Funk. 0:38:34.320 --> 0:38:38.640 Yes, they're they're, they're. Their mixing was immaculate. But what was. 0:38:38.640 --> 0:38:43.560 The process in recording the Junkyard band and why didn't 0:38:43.560 --> 0:38:45.640 you press one further with them? 0:38:45.880 --> 0:38:48.960 Okay, let me I'm going to just talk for a 0:38:49.080 --> 0:38:52.799 second about I agree with you. The only the only 0:38:52.920 --> 0:38:55.560 go Go records I like are old Trouble Funk records 0:38:55.840 --> 0:38:59.759 other than Sardines, which I think was good. And I 0:38:59.800 --> 0:39:02.759 want to talk about that a little bit because what 0:39:02.800 --> 0:39:06.520 you're describing is exactly the way I felt about hip hop. 0:39:07.480 --> 0:39:10.719 Where you could buy in those days, the early days 0:39:10.719 --> 0:39:12.759 of hip hop, I could buy a twelve inch or 0:39:12.840 --> 0:39:14.680 two every week, that's all that would come out that 0:39:14.719 --> 0:39:19.160 would be hip hop, And none of them did for me. 0:39:20.239 --> 0:39:23.360 What the Troublefunk records did. As it relates to Go Go. 0:39:23.719 --> 0:39:27.560 Do you know what I'm saying. It's like the the 0:39:27.680 --> 0:39:31.439 hip hop records were like the bad Go Go records say, 0:39:31.480 --> 0:39:34.359 it's the same, It's the same in any genre. It's like, 0:39:34.480 --> 0:39:37.880 it's not about the genre, it's the way the records 0:39:37.880 --> 0:39:40.799 are made. And in some ways I felt like Go 0:39:40.800 --> 0:39:43.319 Go was gonna be the next hip hop I usually 0:39:43.400 --> 0:39:46.600 believe that was going to happen, but they didn't make 0:39:46.640 --> 0:39:51.000 the right records. They sounded, they watered down what Go 0:39:51.000 --> 0:39:56.440 Go was like. The records on Island. Island signed all 0:39:56.480 --> 0:39:59.280 the bands, and those records are terrible. 0:40:00.120 --> 0:40:02.319 Do you think that's because it's kind of designed for 0:40:02.440 --> 0:40:06.520 it to be a live situation more than a record 0:40:07.000 --> 0:40:08.720 at the end of the day, like a studio album. 0:40:10.120 --> 0:40:13.600 I just think that the wrong people were helping make 0:40:13.640 --> 0:40:17.000 the music. The wrong people were involved on the recording side. 0:40:17.520 --> 0:40:21.120 Yes, I don't like how half the Go Go records 0:40:21.160 --> 0:40:25.279 are engineered. Not I mean, I love Rare Essence more 0:40:25.320 --> 0:40:29.839 than any band on Earth, but it just frustrates me 0:40:30.239 --> 0:40:35.440 that the energy and the engineering of when I hear 0:40:35.480 --> 0:40:38.759 them live or even I hear like some of their 0:40:38.800 --> 0:40:42.239 live mixtapes that's not captured on a studio cut. 0:40:42.239 --> 0:40:44.560 For me, That's what I'm saying. 0:40:45.120 --> 0:40:50.360 And so why was Sardines and the Word just a 0:40:50.480 --> 0:40:54.000 one off twelve inch? Was there ever a conversation about 0:40:54.040 --> 0:40:58.040 recording Junkyard as a band or I mean, not as 0:40:58.040 --> 0:40:59.560 a band, as a full album. 0:40:59.800 --> 0:41:03.160 I don't really remember, and I think not long after 0:41:04.160 --> 0:41:07.759 I ended up leaving Deaf Jam, So it may have 0:41:07.800 --> 0:41:10.719 been that it was just like towards the end of 0:41:10.760 --> 0:41:12.720 the time that I was doing stuff with Deaf Jam 0:41:12.960 --> 0:41:15.960 and then just stopped. But I don't remember. I don't 0:41:16.000 --> 0:41:18.840 remember there being First of all, nobody particularly cared about it, 0:41:18.880 --> 0:41:21.880 like we liked it, but it's not like there was 0:41:21.920 --> 0:41:25.880 any demand for the Junkyard band. As crazy as that sounds, 0:41:25.920 --> 0:41:26.480 I loved them. 0:41:27.440 --> 0:41:30.960 I was told to ask you about the making of 0:41:31.080 --> 0:41:37.440 Crush Groove the song. What tell me the story the 0:41:37.480 --> 0:41:38.879 making of Crushgroove the song? 0:41:39.600 --> 0:41:44.120 What's I was thinking about? It's funny that this has 0:41:44.200 --> 0:41:48.839 been I couldn't. I didn't remember what song that was there. 0:41:48.880 --> 0:41:51.279 I had a memory that we did a song with 0:41:51.360 --> 0:41:55.880 run DMC and other artists, and I remember the conversation 0:41:56.000 --> 0:41:59.600 in the studio because it was heated and particularly on 0:41:59.640 --> 0:42:02.080 my as it related to me, like I was very 0:42:02.239 --> 0:42:05.000 unhappy with what was going on, and I thought it 0:42:05.040 --> 0:42:07.040 for some reason, I thought it was a Christmas song, 0:42:07.400 --> 0:42:10.239 but have come to realize it's actually that Crush Groove song. 0:42:10.800 --> 0:42:13.480 And I could never find it anywhere because it's listed 0:42:13.520 --> 0:42:18.120 as the Crush Groove All Stars Soars. So it's not 0:42:18.239 --> 0:42:20.400 like if you're looking back at run DMC songs that 0:42:20.440 --> 0:42:23.520 comes up. So I haven't heard it in a long time, 0:42:23.640 --> 0:42:25.799 but I had this vague memory. It's like we did 0:42:25.840 --> 0:42:28.040 this song, and I remember there was a little bit 0:42:28.040 --> 0:42:30.040 of an argument in the studio, and what the argument 0:42:30.200 --> 0:42:32.840 was was, if you listen to the track, should we 0:42:32.840 --> 0:42:35.160 play it because it'll it'll or at least play some 0:42:35.200 --> 0:42:36.400 of it. You want to play a little bit of 0:42:36.400 --> 0:42:41.440 a the track? Who are who? Who are the other 0:42:41.520 --> 0:42:42.879 artists on it? Do you remember. 0:42:44.680 --> 0:42:45.319 Curtis Blow? 0:42:45.880 --> 0:42:49.360 Okay, the movie people wanted a song for the movie. 0:42:50.320 --> 0:42:54.760 They got the Fat Boys, Sheila E and Curtis Blow 0:42:55.400 --> 0:42:58.840 on this track that sounded like a track that would 0:42:59.280 --> 0:43:02.680 fit on and maybe any one of the three of 0:43:02.719 --> 0:43:06.080 their albums, maybe she'lla eat Less, but it sounded most 0:43:06.160 --> 0:43:09.360 like a fat Boys records. 0:43:08.480 --> 0:43:09.799 Like a fat Boy Curtis blow record. 0:43:09.880 --> 0:43:12.160 Yeah, it sounded like a fat Boy Curtis blow record. 0:43:12.480 --> 0:43:14.960 So when we got to the studio, okay, do you 0:43:14.960 --> 0:43:15.360 want to play it? 0:43:17.360 --> 0:43:24.680 Many in love? Then in love? 0:43:24.760 --> 0:43:42.200 Then I think I was five when this came out. 0:43:43.040 --> 0:43:56.919 I love this fucking song a long way. 0:43:57.360 --> 0:44:05.719 Now we heal, okay, so what's what's When we got 0:44:05.760 --> 0:44:08.959 to the studio, the mission was, we're doing this song 0:44:09.000 --> 0:44:12.399 for the movie. They provided us this song. The other 0:44:12.480 --> 0:44:15.480 EMC's ready on it, and now I'm there as Run 0:44:15.560 --> 0:44:17.960 DMC's producer, and they're supposed to get on this on 0:44:18.000 --> 0:44:21.600 this track and right, and it sounded only like the 0:44:21.640 --> 0:44:23.560 beginning of the song didn't sound like the run DMC 0:44:23.719 --> 0:44:26.560 part right, And I said, there's no way Run DMC 0:44:26.680 --> 0:44:29.080 could be on this. They cannot be on this. It's like, 0:44:29.520 --> 0:44:32.120 this sounds like a Fat Boys record. This sounds like 0:44:32.120 --> 0:44:35.360 a Curtis blow record. That's not a Run DMC record. 0:44:35.400 --> 0:44:39.520 I love Run DMC. This is something else. And and 0:44:39.560 --> 0:44:41.520 then I said, well, the only way we could have 0:44:41.600 --> 0:44:44.520 Run DMC on this would be if we make our 0:44:44.560 --> 0:44:48.479 own track and drop it in in the middle where 0:44:48.520 --> 0:44:51.000 it could sound like this is a run DMC song. 0:44:52.120 --> 0:44:55.719 And that's it's how that ended. And I was the 0:44:55.760 --> 0:44:58.680 only one who cared. Nobody else cared nobody, you know, 0:44:58.840 --> 0:44:59.920 it would have just been. 0:44:59.800 --> 0:45:03.200 Like Larry, Larry and Curtis weren't offended. I don't. I 0:45:03.239 --> 0:45:03.680 don't even know. 0:45:03.960 --> 0:45:07.200 I didn't even know who produced it. Yeah, I didn't 0:45:07.200 --> 0:45:11.400 know that. I do remember Curtis was pissed off after saying, 0:45:11.480 --> 0:45:14.239 how come I can't be over the part that runs on? Like? 0:45:14.280 --> 0:45:15.640 How come he couldn't. 0:45:15.640 --> 0:45:19.840 Write a breakdown? Yeah? The breakdown? 0:45:20.080 --> 0:45:23.399 Can you talk about? You know, there's there's producer as 0:45:23.640 --> 0:45:28.880 as song clinician and arranger and and music person, and 0:45:28.880 --> 0:45:33.000 there's something about producer as social psychologist. And I feel 0:45:33.040 --> 0:45:36.920 like your your life and correct me if I'm wrong. 0:45:37.040 --> 0:45:39.759 It's sort of this weird thing that rides between them 0:45:39.760 --> 0:45:42.880 and the great producers that I know run this line 0:45:43.280 --> 0:45:46.360 that I don't fully understand how to run, and I 0:45:46.360 --> 0:45:48.560 feel like you've mastered it and and and in your 0:45:48.560 --> 0:45:51.440 career have sort of defined what a producer is. And 0:45:51.520 --> 0:45:54.160 so there are some producers that are that are beat makers, 0:45:54.160 --> 0:45:57.400 there are some producers that are songwriters. You're able to 0:45:57.440 --> 0:46:00.000 encompass all of them. And not only in one particular genre, 0:46:00.160 --> 0:46:01.680 but in about four or five. 0:46:02.320 --> 0:46:03.759 So like, I don't know. 0:46:03.800 --> 0:46:06.160 I mean, you call yourself a reducer, and I get 0:46:06.200 --> 0:46:08.839 that sort of play on words, but like, I don't know, 0:46:08.920 --> 0:46:11.120 what is it? What is it about all of that 0:46:11.120 --> 0:46:13.800 that makes it work, that makes that makes you enjoy 0:46:13.800 --> 0:46:16.160 what you do as well? Because that, to me is fascinating. 0:46:17.840 --> 0:46:19.960 I'll say that I think it always changes. At the 0:46:19.960 --> 0:46:21.920 time that I was more of a beat making producer, 0:46:22.000 --> 0:46:25.440 which are the days we're talking about now, was not. 0:46:25.640 --> 0:46:30.799 I was not good at the uh psychology part and 0:46:30.880 --> 0:46:35.120 the collaborating I was not good. I was much more 0:46:35.160 --> 0:46:38.239 of a I know what's good and you're going to 0:46:38.280 --> 0:46:41.520 do it my way, probably for my hip hop early 0:46:41.600 --> 0:46:44.520 hip hop days. And then as I started working with 0:46:44.560 --> 0:46:49.680 more rock bands, I started understanding more the dynamics of 0:46:49.719 --> 0:46:53.840 working with a group of people. And now the most 0:46:54.000 --> 0:46:56.160 interesting thing for me when I work with an artist 0:46:56.440 --> 0:47:01.239 is I can clearly point out where I think the 0:47:01.360 --> 0:47:05.520 strengths and weaknesses are. But I don't feel like it's 0:47:06.080 --> 0:47:10.759 my responsibility to solve the weaknesses. All I have to 0:47:10.800 --> 0:47:13.680 do is point out, like, hm, this section here isn't 0:47:13.680 --> 0:47:15.239 as good as it could be what can we do 0:47:15.280 --> 0:47:17.239 to make it better? Whereas in the old days, I'd 0:47:17.320 --> 0:47:19.799 say this section isn't as good and this is what 0:47:19.800 --> 0:47:24.240 we're going to do. Now it's this part isn't as good. 0:47:24.800 --> 0:47:27.000 How do you guys suggest we fix it? And all 0:47:27.040 --> 0:47:29.600 of that is subjective. It's all based on your opinion, right, 0:47:29.640 --> 0:47:31.640 I mean like it's it's all how you're all. It 0:47:31.680 --> 0:47:34.280 is his opinion. Everything, everything has to do with opinion. 0:47:34.920 --> 0:47:38.200 The whole job, the whole job of doing this is 0:47:38.320 --> 0:47:39.000 pure opinion. 0:47:39.239 --> 0:47:41.280 Yeah, that's yeah, that's. 0:47:41.080 --> 0:47:45.160 So learn Okay, So before before I get to the 0:47:45.160 --> 0:47:48.120 Beastie Boys, well, unpaid Bill sort. 0:47:47.920 --> 0:47:51.279 Of sorry y divert, but because. 0:47:51.560 --> 0:47:54.440 Actually my next question leads to what you would headed 0:47:54.520 --> 0:47:59.239 with uh unpaid Bill, which is basically, whenever you show 0:47:59.320 --> 0:48:03.040 up and whenever you show up in the credits, two 0:48:03.160 --> 0:48:08.799 things are bound to happen, and that is you're going to. 0:48:09.960 --> 0:48:10.680 Reduce the sound. 0:48:10.719 --> 0:48:13.000 So we already talked about the idea of you stripping 0:48:13.160 --> 0:48:16.160 stuff down to just its bare bones and making it loud. 0:48:17.080 --> 0:48:23.360 But it's also you really introduced the idea of cross 0:48:23.400 --> 0:48:29.319 genres in modern hip hop music. I mean with with 0:48:29.440 --> 0:48:33.000 run DMC having their biggest hit with Walk This Way, 0:48:33.440 --> 0:48:36.799 even with the Beastie Boys, at least in their their 0:48:36.880 --> 0:48:40.080 narrative of it, like we were making fun of smoking 0:48:40.120 --> 0:48:42.759 in the boys rooms, and now you can go with 0:48:42.960 --> 0:48:46.000 fight for your Right to party. But even with Johnny 0:48:46.080 --> 0:48:52.560 Cash doing hurt, or even with Mick Jaggers singing over 0:48:52.640 --> 0:48:55.960 and peached the President, even with the stuff with Slayer 0:48:56.239 --> 0:48:59.160 or working with Neil Diamond, like there's always an element 0:48:59.800 --> 0:49:05.840 or Kanye rhyming over industrial noises. There seems to be 0:49:06.040 --> 0:49:11.480 a common denominator of you pushing artists. I don't willing 0:49:11.640 --> 0:49:13.880 or unwillingly. I mean, Kanye seems like the type of 0:49:13.920 --> 0:49:16.600 person that's like, let's let's let's go to the edge 0:49:16.600 --> 0:49:19.600 of it, let's do something different, whereas like run DMC 0:49:19.840 --> 0:49:23.319 was legendary for not liking or wanting to do Walk 0:49:23.400 --> 0:49:26.000 This Way the way that you wanted them to do it. 0:49:26.440 --> 0:49:33.319 So how much hold handing and Jedi mind tricks and psychology. 0:49:32.719 --> 0:49:33.719 It's all psychology? 0:49:33.760 --> 0:49:36.840 It seems like, yeah, how how much of that is 0:49:36.880 --> 0:49:40.000 a nightmare for you when you just want to make 0:49:40.000 --> 0:49:41.480 the damn song and leave. 0:49:43.800 --> 0:49:46.120 My whole relationship to it has changed over the years, 0:49:46.160 --> 0:49:49.680 so in the case of run DMC. Then it was 0:49:49.719 --> 0:49:52.000 frustrating and I didn't have the tools to deal with it. 0:49:52.040 --> 0:49:59.279 But luckily Russell called called run Indee and said, just 0:49:59.360 --> 0:50:02.759 do whatever Rick says. It's like, really knows what he's doing. 0:50:02.920 --> 0:50:06.000 Just do what Rick says. So had that not happened, 0:50:06.040 --> 0:50:07.840 they wouldn't have they wouldn't have been on the record. 0:50:08.000 --> 0:50:10.920 That record wouldn't have happened. So that's how that happened. 0:50:10.920 --> 0:50:16.000 And even after Rock Box and King of Rock, they 0:50:16.160 --> 0:50:19.160 don't know that they're on a winning formula, just like 0:50:19.320 --> 0:50:23.080 one one moment away from super Jackpot. 0:50:23.440 --> 0:50:26.880 Well, this had less to do with it being a 0:50:27.000 --> 0:50:29.280 rock song. It had more to do with singing someone 0:50:29.280 --> 0:50:32.600 else's words and singing someone else's which they had never 0:50:32.640 --> 0:50:35.879 done before, and singing someone else's words that they didn't 0:50:35.920 --> 0:50:36.680 necessarily like. 0:50:37.800 --> 0:50:41.160 How long did that process take? Walk this way? I'm talking. 0:50:42.440 --> 0:50:44.520 Same as everything you know, same as everything else. The 0:50:44.600 --> 0:50:47.440 only thing that was different was because Steve and Joe 0:50:47.560 --> 0:50:50.640 appeared on the record. There was an extra day working 0:50:50.680 --> 0:50:54.680 on it with those guys playing guitar and singing, singing vocals, 0:50:54.800 --> 0:50:56.320 the guys from Merrismith. 0:50:56.719 --> 0:51:00.560 With the Beastie Boys, Well, first of all, I want 0:51:00.560 --> 0:51:03.680 to know who introduced ah. I have so many questions. 0:51:04.040 --> 0:51:09.200 Number one, the bast groove rock hard twelve inches? Who 0:51:09.440 --> 0:51:13.640 were the Latin Rascals because I've always I've seen their 0:51:13.719 --> 0:51:16.719 names and like all these twelve inches from eighty nine, 0:51:16.760 --> 0:51:20.439 eighty three to eighty five, and then poof Nothing, Who 0:51:20.480 --> 0:51:21.600 were the Latin Rascals. 0:51:22.400 --> 0:51:27.239 The Latin Rascals were two club DJs who worked at Shakedown, 0:51:28.040 --> 0:51:34.520 Arthur Baker's studio, who invented this is pre sampler. There 0:51:34.520 --> 0:51:40.359 were no samplers and they invented away. It was their 0:51:40.400 --> 0:51:44.640 own style of doing remixes where they would do these 0:51:44.840 --> 0:51:50.879 edits on half inch tape where they would repeat the 0:51:50.920 --> 0:51:59.279 same like through editing. So it was like it wasn't scratching. 0:52:00.280 --> 0:52:03.759 There was no sampling yet, and there was this other 0:52:03.880 --> 0:52:07.840 way of manipulating the music. Yeah, and the Latin Rascals 0:52:07.880 --> 0:52:11.080 invented it, and they did it on all of Arthur's 0:52:11.160 --> 0:52:15.480 records and they did a lot of club remixes that 0:52:15.600 --> 0:52:18.239 and I can't remember what they did on that. I 0:52:18.239 --> 0:52:20.760 don't remember them doing anything on those, but it's possible. 0:52:20.880 --> 0:52:25.839 On this Party's getting rough that little see Philadelphia where 0:52:25.840 --> 0:52:30.000 I come from has a very different relationship with this 0:52:30.080 --> 0:52:33.799 Party's Getting rough and Hold It Now Hit It? You know, 0:52:33.920 --> 0:52:37.960 because Lady B and her Street be show that came 0:52:38.000 --> 0:52:40.920 on a Power ninety nine between like twelve and five 0:52:41.080 --> 0:52:46.439 pm on Sundays, they made they basically made an edit 0:52:46.840 --> 0:52:52.000 where they would play that middle sketch of this Party's 0:52:52.000 --> 0:52:54.239 getting rough where it's like, oh man, you just fess it, man, 0:52:54.320 --> 0:52:56.360 you know you you you didn't even turn up the 0:52:56.440 --> 0:53:00.839 boombox and all that stuff, all the all the all 0:53:00.840 --> 0:53:06.239 that chaos in the middle, and then they attached Tomber. Yeah, 0:53:06.280 --> 0:53:09.239 this is this like the Philly anthem. So they made 0:53:09.480 --> 0:53:11.480 they kind of made an edit. Philly made it editor 0:53:11.560 --> 0:53:15.319 of their own of this Party's Getting rough and the 0:53:15.360 --> 0:53:22.640 Beastie groove and just between Latin rascals and mantronics, just 0:53:22.760 --> 0:53:25.919 the the idea of like multiple sampling or like those 0:53:25.960 --> 0:53:30.120 crazy edits. That's all we heard. But what's even weirder 0:53:30.160 --> 0:53:33.440 for Holding Now Hit It? Because of a pressing mistake. 0:53:33.760 --> 0:53:37.239 The initial def Jam pressings of Holding Now Hit It 0:53:37.960 --> 0:53:43.040 had the a cappella as side one, Yes, had the 0:53:43.080 --> 0:53:49.160 a cappella as side one and the the DMX drum 0:53:49.200 --> 0:53:49.880 Machine version. 0:53:49.920 --> 0:53:51.560 That's on the album as side too. 0:53:52.520 --> 0:53:57.360 We never heard of the drum machine version in Philly ever, 0:53:58.120 --> 0:54:01.799 so when they're playing holding now hit it, there's no 0:54:01.840 --> 0:54:04.440 such thing as an a cappella or you jogglingly called 0:54:04.480 --> 0:54:09.319 it acapolca version, and we thought, yo, dude, it was such. 0:54:09.440 --> 0:54:12.120 It was the most radical shit we ever heard because 0:54:12.120 --> 0:54:15.560 our thing was like, the only way I canna describe it. 0:54:15.360 --> 0:54:19.240 Is if you ever seen pooty Tang. And when Chris. 0:54:19.080 --> 0:54:22.440 Rock asked, the DJ introduces that song of silence, like 0:54:22.480 --> 0:54:23.760 and now this new song. 0:54:25.640 --> 0:54:31.840 Slence, I'm just saying he's friends with Chris Rock. I 0:54:31.840 --> 0:54:33.040 don't know. Anyway. 0:54:33.080 --> 0:54:35.200 The whole point was that we made up in our 0:54:35.280 --> 0:54:39.960 minds like yo, these dudes are so incredible they don't. 0:54:39.920 --> 0:54:44.040 Even need music and hold it now hit it. 0:54:44.120 --> 0:54:48.239 The a cappella was number one on the Power nine 0:54:48.280 --> 0:54:53.520 at nine for months to the point where when we 0:54:53.719 --> 0:54:57.000 got the album and heard that drum now, it's weird 0:54:57.239 --> 0:55:01.600 because in Florida, every everyone from down South, I know, 0:55:01.640 --> 0:55:05.160 even Fromier, tells the story like when you're getting your car. 0:55:05.000 --> 0:55:08.200 System, the song that you tested to. 0:55:08.200 --> 0:55:12.719 See if you're if your car system was right was 0:55:12.800 --> 0:55:16.319 holding out hit It because you like you mix your 0:55:16.560 --> 0:55:20.280 your joints loud as fuck. When we got that in Philly, 0:55:20.320 --> 0:55:22.560 we didn't know what the like, Yo, what's this drum ship? 0:55:22.880 --> 0:55:25.600 Like this ain't on the album. To this day, I 0:55:25.640 --> 0:55:30.000 will never acknowledge the album version of holding Out Hit. 0:55:30.160 --> 0:55:32.800 I will only DJ the a cappella. 0:55:32.480 --> 0:55:35.120 Version, but even love to hear I've never heard the 0:55:35.200 --> 0:55:37.239 a cappella version. I'd love to hear it. I don't 0:55:37.280 --> 0:55:40.320 remember ever hearing it. I bet it's great, probably better. 0:55:40.480 --> 0:55:41.040 That's crazy. 0:55:41.040 --> 0:55:47.560 It's your label. It's the first acapella in the history. 0:55:48.360 --> 0:55:53.520 Like love that, Yeah, this is the first in history. 0:55:53.960 --> 0:55:58.479 And in working their album, like how involved are you 0:55:58.520 --> 0:56:02.279 with with the marketing? And because I'll be honest with 0:56:02.360 --> 0:56:06.360 you for two from eighty five till we purchased the 0:56:06.400 --> 0:56:09.080 album and saw the gatefold cover, I didn't know the 0:56:09.080 --> 0:56:12.080 Beastie Boys were white. We thought they were Puerto Rican 0:56:12.880 --> 0:56:17.960 affiliate at least, So was that by design to like 0:56:19.000 --> 0:56:21.359 not put them on the album cover and just ride 0:56:21.400 --> 0:56:22.480 it out till. 0:56:22.760 --> 0:56:25.319 Not at all the way we did it. We didn't. 0:56:25.360 --> 0:56:29.120 We never even thought about it. On the the seven 0:56:29.280 --> 0:56:34.520 original Deaf Jam singles, the Maroon label singles of which 0:56:35.080 --> 0:56:37.520 where rock Hard was one of those. I think that's 0:56:37.560 --> 0:56:41.400 the only Beast record that was. Yeah, there was an 0:56:41.719 --> 0:56:45.680 l there was that. There was Hollis Creek, Hollis Crew, 0:56:45.760 --> 0:56:51.040 Jimmy Spicer, Jim y'all, I'm a Girl Watcher with Papa 0:56:51.080 --> 0:56:54.520 d and Papa Son. I don't think that was on Maroon. 0:56:55.960 --> 0:56:58.760 Oh okay, Well there was also mc A and BAZOUDI. 0:56:59.200 --> 0:57:00.000 Yeah, yeah. 0:57:00.120 --> 0:57:00.480 Zuti. 0:57:01.400 --> 0:57:04.120 Zuti is an engineer in New York named Jay Burnett, 0:57:04.360 --> 0:57:06.279 and he was the guy who turned me onto the 0:57:06.320 --> 0:57:13.040 studio that we lovingly renamed chun King, the original the 0:57:13.080 --> 0:57:17.960 original Chunk King, And the reason I called it chun 0:57:18.120 --> 0:57:20.120 King was I didn't want anyone to know that it 0:57:20.240 --> 0:57:22.320 was such a terrible place that we were working in, 0:57:22.720 --> 0:57:23.880 so I made up Chunking. 0:57:23.960 --> 0:57:27.720 House of Metal was like a just the. 0:57:30.680 --> 0:57:34.680 The one on that was on. 0:57:35.280 --> 0:57:36.520 No, it's before the very. 0:57:36.560 --> 0:57:39.920 One, before the veryck one it was on. It was 0:57:39.960 --> 0:57:43.680 it church between Broom and Grand something like that, across 0:57:43.720 --> 0:57:46.400 from the there's that police building, you know, the police building. 0:57:47.280 --> 0:57:49.760 It was on that block, five floor walk up. The 0:57:49.800 --> 0:57:53.200 rest of the building were like sweatshops. It was a 0:57:53.280 --> 0:57:54.240 really weird place. 0:57:54.360 --> 0:57:54.640 It was. 0:57:54.680 --> 0:57:56.600 It was really Again, I didn't know this because I 0:57:56.640 --> 0:57:59.880 wasn't into it. But it was just a drug deal 0:58:00.080 --> 0:58:03.360 in place I think had they just had a studio, 0:58:03.440 --> 0:58:05.280 but it was mainly drug dealing. But I didn't know that. 0:58:05.520 --> 0:58:12.440 I speaking Steve, Yes, you know, speaking of which now, 0:58:12.440 --> 0:58:16.040 I don't mean I was just reminiscent. 0:58:16.120 --> 0:58:17.960 I think I I think I was at that place 0:58:18.080 --> 0:58:22.080 dropping off tapes as an intern. Yeah the first place, Yeah, 0:58:22.800 --> 0:58:26.040 it was. I was only there once. So but we recorded. 0:58:26.360 --> 0:58:30.360 We recorded all of the Beat Boys stuff there. We 0:58:30.400 --> 0:58:34.440 recorded Raising Hell there. We recorded a lot of the 0:58:34.480 --> 0:58:37.200 early Deft Gem stuff there, maybe all of it, maybe 0:58:37.200 --> 0:58:37.560 all of it. 0:58:37.880 --> 0:58:40.160 I was going to say, Steve, that that d m 0:58:40.400 --> 0:58:46.200 X drum machine that's hanging in our studio, Yeah that's ricks. 0:58:47.280 --> 0:58:50.480 Yeah, I know, I know this is all tell the world. 0:58:50.560 --> 0:58:53.200 But you know, I mean that one question knows that 0:58:53.360 --> 0:58:54.280 in this room? 0:58:54.400 --> 0:58:59.400 Okay, is that a stolen or no? We know? Is it? 0:58:59.800 --> 0:59:01.560 We you know what we had to re record. 0:59:02.320 --> 0:59:06.200 I can't write left handed with John Legend, and we 0:59:06.200 --> 0:59:09.320 were running out of studios and it just so happens 0:59:09.320 --> 0:59:11.280 that that was open, and when we got there, we 0:59:11.280 --> 0:59:14.800 were told this is our last day and kind of 0:59:14.920 --> 0:59:17.120 you know, I was like doing my fan boys thing like, 0:59:17.160 --> 0:59:19.760 oh my god, this is the old chun king and no, no, 0:59:20.400 --> 0:59:23.040 and whoever the owner was a guy he's like just 0:59:23.080 --> 0:59:25.960 like on some me and Joe Green here kid catch. 0:59:27.360 --> 0:59:27.640 Wow. 0:59:28.240 --> 0:59:30.680 He showed me this is this d m X and 0:59:30.720 --> 0:59:33.360 he's has created you know, all the deaf jam days 0:59:33.360 --> 0:59:35.640 has been here forever. You know, you'll take care of 0:59:35.640 --> 0:59:37.600 this and I took it. 0:59:38.800 --> 0:59:45.720 Sorry anyway that may that may or may not be true. 0:59:47.040 --> 0:59:49.560 Well, I'm sure. 0:59:51.040 --> 0:59:54.400 There's multiple I'm sure there's multiple DMX drum scenes. But 0:59:54.440 --> 0:59:58.160 I prefer my version of it was the was the 0:59:58.760 --> 1:00:01.400 just the the flood game of Licensed to Ill? Was 1:00:01.440 --> 1:00:04.800 that scary to you or overwhelming at the time? And 1:00:05.040 --> 1:00:07.880 how are you guys treated by Columbia Records? 1:00:07.960 --> 1:00:12.880 By this point we were never treated well by anybody. 1:00:14.000 --> 1:00:21.600 Even when selling twelve million units? Yes, even then, man, 1:00:22.880 --> 1:00:24.280 really wow? 1:00:24.320 --> 1:00:25.720 So you were still we were off the red nose 1:00:25.800 --> 1:00:28.680 the rain? I mean, was this it was this yet 1:00:28.760 --> 1:00:31.920 Nakoff period? Was this U Matola period? 1:00:32.080 --> 1:00:34.760 Like? Where was Yetnikoff? And al Teller? Those were the 1:00:34.800 --> 1:00:36.680 people that I don't. 1:00:36.400 --> 1:00:38.920 Tell her from. MCA was at Columbia. 1:00:38.480 --> 1:00:41.560 First, he was the president of Columbia at the time 1:00:41.600 --> 1:00:42.200 that we were there. 1:00:42.520 --> 1:00:42.920 Damn. 1:00:43.440 --> 1:00:45.760 The only person that I ever really dealt with on 1:00:45.800 --> 1:00:48.200 a regular basis was Jeff Jones, who was a great guy. 1:00:48.280 --> 1:00:51.800 He was a product manager and he now runs Apple 1:00:51.880 --> 1:00:55.040 Records for the Beatles based in London, and he's still 1:00:55.080 --> 1:00:58.320 around and he remembers, like, he told me stories of 1:00:58.840 --> 1:01:01.040 things that happened back then. I didn't remember, but it 1:01:01.080 --> 1:01:05.439 was funny, like like with License to Ill, he said. 1:01:05.480 --> 1:01:07.959 He goes into a meeting, he's like, well, Rick Rubin says, 1:01:07.960 --> 1:01:10.040 we can't put a barcode on the outside of the cover, 1:01:11.000 --> 1:01:12.480 and uh, you know, we have to figure out how 1:01:12.480 --> 1:01:14.360 we're going to do this because we've never done this before. 1:01:14.880 --> 1:01:16.680 And that, you know, the people in the me are like, 1:01:16.680 --> 1:01:17.880 who the fuck is Rick Rubin? 1:01:18.000 --> 1:01:18.440 What do you mean? 1:01:18.480 --> 1:01:20.600 It's like, we do this all we're doing this. Of 1:01:20.680 --> 1:01:22.840 course it's going to have a barcode. He's like, no, 1:01:22.880 --> 1:01:24.880 but Rick won't let us have the barcode. He's like, 1:01:24.880 --> 1:01:29.120 he's insistent. So again, I had no memory of that. 1:01:29.240 --> 1:01:32.600 But we would fight. We would fight for the art 1:01:32.680 --> 1:01:34.280 to get the art the way we want it all 1:01:34.320 --> 1:01:36.360 the time, and people just didn't know what it was, 1:01:36.560 --> 1:01:39.080 you know, say, very little understanding of what it was 1:01:39.080 --> 1:01:39.760 that we were doing. 1:01:40.080 --> 1:01:43.360 Who can sceptualize the album cover for License to Ill? 1:01:43.720 --> 1:01:46.280 That was me? And what was hard, I'll tell you. 1:01:47.120 --> 1:01:51.360 I had just read the led Zeppelin book Hammer of 1:01:51.360 --> 1:01:54.000 the Gods, about them being on tour and all the 1:01:54.120 --> 1:02:02.200 debauchery of crazy rock stardom, and and there were images 1:02:02.240 --> 1:02:06.000 of led Zeppelin's airplane in the book, and it just 1:02:06.040 --> 1:02:08.720 seemed like, wow, that's just like the height of decadence. 1:02:08.840 --> 1:02:14.400 This an airplane with this crazy rock and roll lifestyle 1:02:14.440 --> 1:02:18.080 going on. And I thought it would be interesting to 1:02:18.160 --> 1:02:22.360 have a beastie boy, a beastie boy airplane representing this 1:02:22.440 --> 1:02:25.480 sort of crazy debauchery all made up. You know, none 1:02:25.480 --> 1:02:27.919 of this was true. We were kids, We were kids 1:02:27.920 --> 1:02:31.040 in school, you know, this was none of this was accurate. 1:02:31.120 --> 1:02:35.440 This was a fantasy based on loving, loving led Zeppelin. 1:02:36.560 --> 1:02:39.800 It was the fantasy of, well, what about a Beastie 1:02:39.840 --> 1:02:45.280 Boys jumbo jet that rams into a mountain like that? 1:02:45.280 --> 1:02:48.680 That's like the way the story ends is the it 1:02:49.120 --> 1:02:52.400 goes with this crazy rock and roll lifestyle. And I thought, well, 1:02:52.720 --> 1:02:55.320 because it would be a gatefold, it'd be like you'd 1:02:55.360 --> 1:02:57.200 see the front of it, and you'd think it was 1:02:58.040 --> 1:03:00.000 you just think it was an airplane, and then you'd 1:03:00.080 --> 1:03:02.040 open it up and you'd get the reveal of the 1:03:02.080 --> 1:03:04.760 back and then yeah. And then when I would drive 1:03:04.800 --> 1:03:07.680 from my parents' house on Long Island into the city, 1:03:07.720 --> 1:03:13.600 I would always pass the globe from the that's in 1:03:13.640 --> 1:03:16.040 the centerfold, and I was thought, oh, it'd be great, 1:03:16.080 --> 1:03:18.920 like someday that would be a great thing to use 1:03:18.960 --> 1:03:21.760 in a photograph. And then the opportunity was with the 1:03:21.760 --> 1:03:22.400 Beastie Boys. 1:03:22.400 --> 1:03:27.120 The inner sleeve has anyone ever, you know, it's weird 1:03:27.160 --> 1:03:30.840 when I seen it. I remember getting the album like 1:03:31.000 --> 1:03:33.439 Thanksgiving of eighty six, so I would like to think 1:03:33.480 --> 1:03:36.440 that I think the album came out in November of 1:03:36.480 --> 1:03:41.560 eighty six, like late November, but this happened. The album 1:03:41.600 --> 1:03:46.640 cover occurred like nine months after the Space Settle challenge thing. 1:03:46.680 --> 1:03:50.600 The challenges joint the challenge like traumatize the shit out 1:03:50.600 --> 1:03:50.800 of me. 1:03:51.240 --> 1:03:54.680 Yeah, in kindergarten, yo. 1:03:55.280 --> 1:03:59.720 Yeah, and like so so that album and see that 1:04:00.400 --> 1:04:02.439 like just traumatize me even more. 1:04:02.520 --> 1:04:02.600 So. 1:04:03.160 --> 1:04:06.040 It's weird, like I have love this. 1:04:06.160 --> 1:04:10.040 Love relationship with with the album because it's so you know, 1:04:10.160 --> 1:04:13.240 my monumental but it's like, ah, the nights. 1:04:13.280 --> 1:04:16.400 I just looked at that album cover like it's killing me. 1:04:16.680 --> 1:04:19.760 I didn't. I didn't know about the crash, and it 1:04:19.880 --> 1:04:22.840 didn't I'll tell you now in I knew it at 1:04:22.840 --> 1:04:24.760 the time, but I didn't know enough to be able 1:04:24.800 --> 1:04:27.880 to get it the way I really wanted it. But 1:04:28.160 --> 1:04:30.800 it never was the way I really wanted it, which 1:04:30.840 --> 1:04:33.680 was I wanted to look more really like a photograph, 1:04:34.080 --> 1:04:36.840 and instead it looks more like a Mad magazine cover 1:04:37.040 --> 1:04:40.439 cartoon like it. It's more cartoony looking than I would 1:04:40.440 --> 1:04:42.360 have liked it to be. I would have liked it 1:04:42.400 --> 1:04:44.520 to be like photo realist. 1:04:44.800 --> 1:04:48.160 Who will be ohms. The artist that drew was he 1:04:48.200 --> 1:04:49.840 a friend of yours or no? 1:04:49.840 --> 1:04:53.360 No, he was a friend of the guy who was 1:04:53.440 --> 1:04:58.919 our art director at the label, Steve Byron was his name, 1:04:59.400 --> 1:05:01.880 And I would just say, hey, this is the vision 1:05:01.920 --> 1:05:04.040 for the cover. How do we get this made? And 1:05:04.080 --> 1:05:07.480 then he had his friend he commissioned it. But which 1:05:07.560 --> 1:05:09.120 is why it didn't come out the way I wanted 1:05:09.120 --> 1:05:10.720 it to come out. You know, it's like, uh, so 1:05:10.800 --> 1:05:14.720 you've seen it, We're disappointed. Yeah, I said, this isn't 1:05:14.760 --> 1:05:18.040 really It's like the image is right, but the way 1:05:18.080 --> 1:05:20.880 it was done was not right. It felt more like 1:05:20.880 --> 1:05:22.960 a cartoon. But it was like, well, the you know, 1:05:23.000 --> 1:05:24.840 the album's coming out and we have no time. It's 1:05:24.880 --> 1:05:28.000 like okay, and to eat me that was not that 1:05:28.160 --> 1:05:30.240 was a creative advice that did that. 1:05:30.320 --> 1:05:31.960 I didn't know. That was not my idea? 1:05:32.440 --> 1:05:34.800 So what did you think about Eminem's to it? 1:05:34.840 --> 1:05:37.400 But then I forgot you produced that? He produced that? 1:05:38.000 --> 1:05:39.440 Did you talk to you want it? Or did he 1:05:39.480 --> 1:05:43.040 say I wanted to wi one? Eminem's album, Uh not 1:05:43.120 --> 1:05:44.720 a music to be murdered by? I was the one 1:05:44.720 --> 1:05:49.000 before that one. It was the Recovery at the pull 1:05:49.080 --> 1:05:51.840 Up Recovery. It just came out like a year or 1:05:51.840 --> 1:05:52.200 two ago. 1:05:52.800 --> 1:05:56.600 Oh I'm looking right now to produce that. Yeah, we wait, 1:05:56.680 --> 1:05:58.760 which would you white? Question? Which is rick? How do 1:05:58.800 --> 1:06:00.360 you pick your projects. 1:06:00.280 --> 1:06:02.920 Just based on liking them, either liking the music or 1:06:02.920 --> 1:06:04.160 liking the artist one or the other. 1:06:04.280 --> 1:06:07.360 Like Coma Cozi Sorry Kamakazi, that was it? 1:06:07.440 --> 1:06:09.240 Yeah, I didn't produced that. 1:06:10.080 --> 1:06:15.880 Oh I thought you produced the last comic Cozi. Yikes? Okay, 1:06:16.040 --> 1:06:17.400 I stand corrected. Well. 1:06:18.520 --> 1:06:22.840 Tribute to Licensed to ILLM so oh cool? Yeah, as 1:06:23.000 --> 1:06:24.439 an album coming just. 1:06:24.360 --> 1:06:26.480 On the back of Bill's question, Rick, how come you 1:06:26.560 --> 1:06:29.280 only did one? I noticed you only did U the 1:06:29.560 --> 1:06:31.840 Andrew Dice Clay album, like that was your only comedian 1:06:32.240 --> 1:06:32.920 that you work with? 1:06:33.520 --> 1:06:35.760 Well, we did. I think we did five five Andrew 1:06:35.800 --> 1:06:39.520 Dice Clay out right right, And I always looked for 1:06:39.560 --> 1:06:43.040 other comedians to work with, but never found there was 1:06:43.200 --> 1:06:46.560 At one point I was interested in recording Carlos Mencia. 1:06:46.800 --> 1:06:50.760 I don't know, oh wow, And I think we like 1:06:50.880 --> 1:06:53.600 started talking about it, maybe even recorded a little bit, 1:06:53.640 --> 1:06:57.080 but it just never never came together. For whatever reason. 1:06:57.800 --> 1:06:59.760 Have you gotten any more requests though comedian? 1:06:59.800 --> 1:07:04.640 Why? Well? I love Girod. I think he's incredible. I've 1:07:04.680 --> 1:07:07.040 never thought about him doing an album, but that's a 1:07:07.080 --> 1:07:08.080 really interesting idea. 1:07:08.520 --> 1:07:11.160 Okay, he wants it. I'm sorry. 1:07:11.480 --> 1:07:14.480 How long did you have to bug Public get him 1:07:14.720 --> 1:07:17.320 until Chuck finally relented and signed to the label. 1:07:17.800 --> 1:07:20.439 It was a really long time. It was a long time. 1:07:20.560 --> 1:07:24.160 I want to say it felt like forever then, but 1:07:24.240 --> 1:07:27.880 it was probably nine months, maybe a year, but fort 1:07:28.000 --> 1:07:30.120 you know, when you're twenty years old, a year is forever. 1:07:30.800 --> 1:07:34.560 No, that's a long time. And they had. 1:07:34.440 --> 1:07:37.960 A post it note of Chuck's number next to my phone, 1:07:38.240 --> 1:07:40.280 and anytime I would walk by the phone, I'd see 1:07:40.280 --> 1:07:43.360 it and I would call. And then Bill Stephanie, who 1:07:43.400 --> 1:07:46.520 was our first employee at def JAM. He knew Chuck, 1:07:46.920 --> 1:07:49.360 and at one point I got so frustrated, I said, 1:07:49.720 --> 1:07:52.400 you have to tell Chuck. If he doesn't sign to 1:07:52.480 --> 1:07:57.640 deaf Jam, I'm firing you. Like, you have to convince 1:07:57.720 --> 1:08:00.800 him he has to do this. And it's not like 1:08:00.840 --> 1:08:02.520 he wanted to sign to someone else. He didn't want 1:08:02.520 --> 1:08:05.400 to make records. That was the thing. It's like, here's 1:08:04.960 --> 1:08:07.320 your's too old. He thought he was too old. 1:08:07.720 --> 1:08:09.640 How did you How did you feel about the Bomb 1:08:09.720 --> 1:08:13.600 Squad's production methods, because that's the total opposite of your 1:08:13.720 --> 1:08:16.479 reduction love Brooch loved it. 1:08:16.560 --> 1:08:18.920 I like I like different things, you know I'm not. 1:08:19.280 --> 1:08:22.519 I like all kinds of different things. I actually heard 1:08:22.600 --> 1:08:29.519 something on your on your James Brown recent DJ set right. 1:08:30.240 --> 1:08:35.000 Maybe it was nine two if I remember correctly, For 1:08:35.080 --> 1:08:37.599 the first time I heard what I think was the 1:08:37.640 --> 1:08:40.759 inspiration for the Bomb Squad that I'd never heard before. 1:08:41.560 --> 1:08:42.800 Wow, I have. 1:08:42.800 --> 1:08:44.760 To find I'll find it and send it to you, 1:08:44.800 --> 1:08:46.880 just so you have for your own reference. I think 1:08:47.240 --> 1:08:49.960 you pieced you put the pieces of a puzzle together 1:08:49.960 --> 1:08:53.400 for me that I never knew were there. I see. 1:08:55.200 --> 1:08:58.599 You know during this period at least between eighty six 1:08:58.680 --> 1:09:01.960 and eighty nine, I mean between your work with ll 1:09:02.960 --> 1:09:05.320 and I'm curious as to why you did not produce 1:09:06.600 --> 1:09:09.160 bigger endeavor And I always wanted to know how you 1:09:09.160 --> 1:09:11.960 felt about like the La Posse and I Need Love 1:09:12.000 --> 1:09:15.519 and all that stuff. But you're doing these Slayer records 1:09:16.040 --> 1:09:18.439 and not to mention, like I mean your heart met, 1:09:18.479 --> 1:09:22.240 Like how what is your approach to Are you just 1:09:22.320 --> 1:09:25.200 leading from the gut or do you have like a 1:09:25.320 --> 1:09:29.120 mapped out plan that you're explaining to the group. This 1:09:29.160 --> 1:09:30.680 is the vision I have for you, Like how do 1:09:30.720 --> 1:09:31.679 you work with Slayer? 1:09:32.240 --> 1:09:35.799 Just going into the studio and first going into pre production, 1:09:36.200 --> 1:09:38.840 talking about the parts in the songs, helping make them 1:09:38.840 --> 1:09:41.240 as good as they could be, and then figuring out 1:09:41.320 --> 1:09:45.640 how to In their case, it was interesting because they 1:09:45.680 --> 1:09:50.280 already were popular, a popular underground band. Like the night 1:09:50.320 --> 1:09:52.280 I saw them they sold out the Ritz, which was 1:09:52.479 --> 1:09:56.719 pretty substantial place I saw them at. The Rits blew 1:09:56.800 --> 1:09:59.439 my mind. It's like, I like heavy music. I never 1:09:59.479 --> 1:10:01.920 heard of these guys before, and this is one of 1:10:01.960 --> 1:10:04.840 the craziest, heaviest concerts I've ever seen in my life. 1:10:04.880 --> 1:10:09.000 How is this? It's like a parallel universe that this exists. 1:10:09.920 --> 1:10:11.840 And and I talked to them that night after the 1:10:11.880 --> 1:10:14.160 show and then ended up flying out meeting them in 1:10:14.160 --> 1:10:15.160 California after that. 1:10:16.080 --> 1:10:17.080 Who was there drummer? 1:10:17.400 --> 1:10:21.439 Because I've never heard I've never heard someone play double 1:10:21.520 --> 1:10:22.519 kick that intense. 1:10:23.040 --> 1:10:24.200 Yeah, and. 1:10:26.479 --> 1:10:30.400 You know, not not only is it intense, it's funky. 1:10:31.720 --> 1:10:35.280 That's the He's the only of all the heavy metal 1:10:35.360 --> 1:10:37.599 drummers I've ever heard who play in that double kick 1:10:37.680 --> 1:10:42.639 drum style. He's the only one where it's groovy. Maybe 1:10:46.160 --> 1:10:50.040 Lars isn't that Lars thing though, That's not what Lars does. Okay, 1:10:50.600 --> 1:10:54.880 that's what Lars does groovy. Lars does something else. So 1:10:54.920 --> 1:10:57.280 it's more like a prog a fast prog rock drummer. 1:10:57.439 --> 1:11:00.080 So some kid at school puts me on you know, 1:11:00.120 --> 1:11:02.439 by the time I get a nation of millions, some 1:11:02.520 --> 1:11:09.479 kid puts me onto Random Blood and then uh plays yeah, yeah, 1:11:09.520 --> 1:11:11.120 she you know when I was listening to she watch 1:11:11.160 --> 1:11:13.000 Channel Zone and they're like, well, you know, that's that's 1:11:13.040 --> 1:11:15.640 a Slayer song and playing the original journ and then 1:11:15.720 --> 1:11:17.120 like I started buying. 1:11:16.880 --> 1:11:18.360 The records just as the complete its. 1:11:18.600 --> 1:11:22.000 But yeah, trying to play that ship because there was 1:11:22.000 --> 1:11:25.080 like a hard rock band that I joined, like in 1:11:25.160 --> 1:11:28.040 high school for like four months, but I quit because 1:11:28.200 --> 1:11:31.360 like I can't do double foot action that good. But 1:11:31.439 --> 1:11:35.519 it's like, how did you capture those performances? Like are 1:11:35.560 --> 1:11:36.760 there jam sessions? 1:11:36.920 --> 1:11:37.280 Are there? 1:11:37.320 --> 1:11:40.679 Like, guys, here's a chorus's or is it just like okay, 1:11:40.960 --> 1:11:44.559 open e open minor just boss the wall go. 1:11:44.760 --> 1:11:46.920 No no, no no no. They they wrote the songs. 1:11:48.240 --> 1:11:51.320 I came in. I said, maybe this part's too long, 1:11:51.400 --> 1:11:54.200 maybe this part's too short, maybe we need another part here. 1:11:54.240 --> 1:11:58.080 But very it's all them, it's all them. And Slayer 1:11:58.120 --> 1:12:02.559 were unbelievable, and then it was just properly recording them 1:12:02.600 --> 1:12:04.599 in a way not to screw it up. And here 1:12:04.680 --> 1:12:10.160 was a big breakthrough. Sonic breakthrough in my mind was 1:12:10.400 --> 1:12:13.760 the only records you could hear that were that approached 1:12:13.760 --> 1:12:17.840 that speed at that time would be like Metallica's first record. 1:12:17.920 --> 1:12:19.639 I think that's all that was out. I don't even 1:12:19.640 --> 1:12:25.479 think their second record was out yet. And yeah, but Metallica, 1:12:25.760 --> 1:12:30.479 those records were recorded like a traditional rock band, which 1:12:30.560 --> 1:12:32.519 again it like it goes back to the hip hop 1:12:32.640 --> 1:12:36.679 argument in the beginning, it's like nobody's looking at the 1:12:36.720 --> 1:12:39.080 thing for what it is, to make it the best 1:12:39.200 --> 1:12:41.519 version of what it is. People are looking at Okay. Well, 1:12:42.000 --> 1:12:45.719 on rock records, we use big drum sounds with long 1:12:46.280 --> 1:12:51.479 with long reverbs. Yeah, long reverbs, long sounds, and that's 1:12:51.520 --> 1:12:54.000 what makes them sound big. But if you're playing fast, 1:12:54.439 --> 1:12:57.240 and if you do that, it's just a blur. You 1:12:57.280 --> 1:13:03.160 don't hear anything. It's just exactly so I'm looking at Okay, 1:13:03.200 --> 1:13:06.599 this band's incredible, and they play tight and fast, and 1:13:06.640 --> 1:13:09.559 the key is how do we get it to sound 1:13:09.760 --> 1:13:15.719 like like you're listening to them with a magnifying glass, 1:13:16.479 --> 1:13:22.000 not how do you blend it together into an impressionist painting. 1:13:23.000 --> 1:13:26.479 So in the case of Slayer, it was, okay, how 1:13:26.479 --> 1:13:30.320 do we make the drums sounds super tight, super tiny, 1:13:31.240 --> 1:13:34.760 because the speed of the drums, the only way you're 1:13:34.760 --> 1:13:37.840 going to even be able to hear it is if 1:13:37.880 --> 1:13:44.960 they're basically taps, you know, like tiny little taps. So 1:13:45.000 --> 1:13:46.880 it really a lot of it has to do with 1:13:47.120 --> 1:13:51.679 in each of these cases of the things that I've 1:13:52.040 --> 1:13:53.760 on the records where I've worked on where they sound 1:13:53.800 --> 1:13:56.120 different than the records that came before them. It was 1:13:56.240 --> 1:13:59.280 only looking at them for what they are and figuring 1:13:59.280 --> 1:14:01.360 out how do we make this thing sound good? Not 1:14:01.840 --> 1:14:04.000 how do we use the baggage of the past, how 1:14:04.000 --> 1:14:07.360 do we apply old methods to this? It's how do 1:14:07.439 --> 1:14:09.680 we what's right for what this is? 1:14:10.400 --> 1:14:14.960 So how do you know the difference between what to 1:14:15.040 --> 1:14:19.400 give a slayer as opposed to like the word that 1:14:19.479 --> 1:14:22.759 you did with the cull as far as rock sounds 1:14:22.760 --> 1:14:23.320 are concerned. 1:14:23.360 --> 1:14:26.960 Now, I know you know, like how much. 1:14:26.840 --> 1:14:30.600 Research do you have to put into the acts that 1:14:30.680 --> 1:14:32.160 you work with to know. 1:14:32.160 --> 1:14:34.360 What their strengths and their weaknesses are. 1:14:35.080 --> 1:14:39.280 I put no research in whatsoever. But the research that 1:14:39.360 --> 1:14:41.439 I do is as a fan all the time, listening 1:14:41.479 --> 1:14:44.960 to music all the time, and I listen and then 1:14:45.000 --> 1:14:49.639 based on what I'm hearing, I'll make suggestions just based 1:14:49.680 --> 1:14:54.599 on whatever whatever little bit that I've picked up from 1:14:54.640 --> 1:14:55.960 listening to music my whole life. 1:14:57.000 --> 1:14:58.720 We should probably be asking to LL this. 1:14:58.840 --> 1:15:00.920 But since you were there to help make the track, 1:15:02.120 --> 1:15:08.320 what exactly went between LL and cool Mode that made 1:15:08.400 --> 1:15:09.920 him make Jack the Ripper? 1:15:10.880 --> 1:15:14.519 I remember it? Yeah, I don't know that anything happened. 1:15:14.680 --> 1:15:16.280 I think it might have just been that. 1:15:17.360 --> 1:15:19.200 I mean, did you realize that you were making a 1:15:19.280 --> 1:15:20.639 cool mod diss record. 1:15:21.760 --> 1:15:25.439 Nope, and one of the first disc records. I never 1:15:25.479 --> 1:15:25.920 thought about it. 1:15:26.880 --> 1:15:28.679 That was your boy friend back in the day. 1:15:28.920 --> 1:15:31.200 Yeah, I loved him. 1:15:31.720 --> 1:15:34.200 You You never thought about it that way at all. 1:15:35.200 --> 1:15:36.240 And it goes back to. 1:15:36.200 --> 1:15:38.120 Your go go love too, because it was the Chuck 1:15:38.160 --> 1:15:40.400 Brown tample, the sol disamble. 1:15:40.600 --> 1:15:44.960 Yeah. Oh yeah, I forgot. I forgot that. Ashley's George's 1:15:45.000 --> 1:15:48.479 clip is yeah, Chuck, it's not just the paint and 1:15:48.560 --> 1:15:54.000 full break Yeah. How how Uh? What was your experience 1:15:54.120 --> 1:15:55.960 like shooting Tougher than Leather? 1:15:57.320 --> 1:15:58.920 Terrible experience you directed? 1:15:58.960 --> 1:15:59.160 Yeah? 1:15:59.160 --> 1:16:03.320 I was gonna say, Okay, I'm a first time director. 1:16:04.400 --> 1:16:08.280 What what what can you what? What? What advice can 1:16:08.360 --> 1:16:10.880 you give me? I mean, sorry, my movie's already. 1:16:10.600 --> 1:16:12.519 Done, so okay. I was going to say, if you 1:16:12.520 --> 1:16:14.960 have an opportunity not to do it, don't leave. 1:16:15.600 --> 1:16:16.040 Wow. 1:16:16.080 --> 1:16:19.160 Okay, So tell me about your experience in directing Tougher 1:16:19.200 --> 1:16:19.599 than Leather? 1:16:20.520 --> 1:16:23.680 Uh, Well, where I didn't know what I was doing. 1:16:23.760 --> 1:16:26.760 In the recording studio, it was easy because there were 1:16:26.800 --> 1:16:31.280 so few people there and mistakes were low and on 1:16:31.320 --> 1:16:35.360 a movie set, there are many more people, and the 1:16:35.560 --> 1:16:39.559 schedule is like, Hey, I'm going to be an hour 1:16:39.640 --> 1:16:41.800 late to the studio today. Talk to you, talk to 1:16:41.800 --> 1:16:45.439 you guys later, No problem, movie sets not like that. 1:16:45.600 --> 1:16:50.000 It's like everything was and yeah, and we were our 1:16:50.040 --> 1:16:54.320 whole lives were you know, I slept until I never 1:16:54.360 --> 1:16:56.400 took a class before three in the afternoon when I 1:16:56.400 --> 1:16:58.960 went to n YU, because I slept until probably one, 1:16:59.720 --> 1:17:03.000 and then we went out all night every night. So 1:17:03.080 --> 1:17:05.559 the idea of showing up on a movie set at 1:17:05.600 --> 1:17:09.280 six o'clock in the morning every day, that wasn't anything 1:17:09.320 --> 1:17:14.200 that I anticipated, and that was not a It was 1:17:14.240 --> 1:17:19.360 not a realistic ask in the way my life worked. 1:17:19.760 --> 1:17:22.800 So it was a terrible experience and I wouldn't wish 1:17:22.880 --> 1:17:24.599 it on, wouldn't wish it on my enemy. 1:17:24.920 --> 1:17:28.120 Did you insist on directing that movie or was it 1:17:28.240 --> 1:17:31.880 like you had an upcoming aprier to do it or 1:17:31.960 --> 1:17:37.559 something like? How did you wind up holding the director's manual? 1:17:38.200 --> 1:17:41.120 Me and my friend Rick wrote the idea. It was 1:17:41.880 --> 1:17:44.000 Rick was really more the writer than I. We would 1:17:44.000 --> 1:17:46.120 throw ideas together, but Rick was the main writer. Rick 1:17:46.160 --> 1:17:49.400 Manelo and who was the guy who ran the desk 1:17:49.600 --> 1:17:52.960 at my dorm, so he'd be the night He would 1:17:52.960 --> 1:17:56.320 work at the dorm from midnight to six. He was 1:17:56.360 --> 1:17:59.679 the night watchman essentially, and the dorm was pretty quiet 1:17:59.720 --> 1:18:01.960 from nine to six, so I would usually get home 1:18:01.960 --> 1:18:04.439 from the club two three and I would sit there 1:18:04.439 --> 1:18:07.160 with Rick and we would order food from Cozy Supenberger 1:18:07.160 --> 1:18:10.240 around the corner, and we would watch watch old movies 1:18:10.240 --> 1:18:13.719 on TV. And he was a film major and film 1:18:13.800 --> 1:18:17.519 historian new tremendous amount and then in later years ended up, 1:18:17.840 --> 1:18:24.840 you know, working with Darren Aronofski and James Gray. James Gray, 1:18:24.920 --> 1:18:27.400 some great directors, and all of my friends who were 1:18:27.400 --> 1:18:31.200 directors would always anytime anyone I knew who made movies 1:18:31.280 --> 1:18:34.599 had a movie question, they would all call Rick Minelo 1:18:34.680 --> 1:18:38.640 because he knew more than everybody that Rick Minelo was 1:18:38.680 --> 1:18:41.559 the main scriptwriter. He's in it too. I can't remember 1:18:41.600 --> 1:18:45.200 what his character. He was played, sort of the sidekick 1:18:45.240 --> 1:18:49.840 guy to my guy. I can't remember his character's name. 1:18:49.880 --> 1:18:52.559 I can't remember. I really blocked out a lot about 1:18:52.600 --> 1:18:57.000 that movie. Actually, he was also in the Beastie Boys 1:18:57.120 --> 1:19:01.799 video for No Sleep Till Brooklyn. He was like the club, 1:19:02.479 --> 1:19:04.280 you know, in the beginning there's like a skit with 1:19:04.360 --> 1:19:06.519 a that's Rick Minelo. 1:19:07.439 --> 1:19:10.040 So he's been in a few Deaf Jam. 1:19:11.320 --> 1:19:14.320 Products or yes, and he directed Going Back to Cali 1:19:14.760 --> 1:19:18.519 as well. Oh the video of Going Back to Cali, 1:19:19.200 --> 1:19:22.840 which we storyboarded together at the desk at Weinstein the 1:19:22.840 --> 1:19:24.759 dormitory at NYU. 1:19:24.800 --> 1:19:29.280 Okay, So something I don't know, and I don't know 1:19:29.320 --> 1:19:33.839 if you ever went on record. I never knew how 1:19:34.000 --> 1:19:36.960 or why you left Deaf Jam. I just remember your 1:19:37.080 --> 1:19:42.000 name being on the executive producer for a Nation of Millions, 1:19:42.439 --> 1:19:44.519 and then when I looked for your name on Fear 1:19:44.520 --> 1:19:46.679 of a Black Planet, you weren't there anymore. 1:19:47.360 --> 1:19:49.400 And then I next I heard of you. You had 1:19:49.439 --> 1:19:51.120 a funeral for the word deaf. 1:19:53.160 --> 1:19:58.200 So what I mean, why did you decide to leave 1:19:58.240 --> 1:20:00.519 the your your your first love? 1:20:01.240 --> 1:20:04.160 It really had to There were two things going on. 1:20:04.160 --> 1:20:08.519 One was over the time together ever many years. It 1:20:08.680 --> 1:20:11.679 was three, four or five years. My relationship with Russell 1:20:11.800 --> 1:20:15.400 was starting to I wouldn't say it ever turned bad, 1:20:15.439 --> 1:20:17.720 because we were always good friends, but it felt like 1:20:17.920 --> 1:20:24.080 our what we wanted was changing, and I felt like 1:20:24.240 --> 1:20:27.400 I really loved our friendship and didn't want our friendship 1:20:27.400 --> 1:20:30.760 to end, and I thought, if we remained partners, our 1:20:30.800 --> 1:20:34.439 friendship's probably going to end, so maybe it's better just 1:20:34.560 --> 1:20:37.000 not to be partners anymore. And then there was something 1:20:37.080 --> 1:20:40.080 going on that really triggered. It had to do with 1:20:40.400 --> 1:20:44.160 the way we were being treated by Columbia and what 1:20:44.280 --> 1:20:46.960 we needed Columbia to do to fix the situation for 1:20:47.000 --> 1:20:50.800 our artists. For example, I remember the first time we 1:20:50.840 --> 1:20:56.559 went to England and the guy at Columbia basically told us, 1:20:57.080 --> 1:20:59.519 you know, we're just we're not interested in your records, 1:21:00.040 --> 1:21:04.080 said they said, we look at Columbia records in New 1:21:04.160 --> 1:21:07.760 York as an albatross, and it's nothing against you personally, 1:21:07.800 --> 1:21:11.000 but because you come from them, we're just not really interested. 1:21:11.720 --> 1:21:16.880 Even though you're making that money. Yeah, I'm in eighty seven. 1:21:17.080 --> 1:21:20.639 You guys are so more units than Michael Jackson's bed. 1:21:21.360 --> 1:21:23.000 Yeah, and yeah. 1:21:23.000 --> 1:21:26.400 It was unbelievable. I had a meeting with Al Teller 1:21:26.400 --> 1:21:28.519 at the time, who's the president of the company, and 1:21:28.600 --> 1:21:31.880 told him all of my concerns and I talked for 1:21:31.880 --> 1:21:33.920 a half hour and I got really emotional. I started 1:21:33.960 --> 1:21:36.840 crying because again, I care so much about this shit. 1:21:37.040 --> 1:21:41.320 It's my whole life. And at the end of the conversation, 1:21:41.400 --> 1:21:42.800 I say, you know, we got to we have to 1:21:42.800 --> 1:21:46.160 figure out a way to fix this, because if not, 1:21:46.600 --> 1:21:49.000 I have to leave. Like I can't. I can't keep 1:21:49.040 --> 1:21:51.800 doing this. I can't put my heart into this and 1:21:51.920 --> 1:21:55.840 have partners who don't care or who are not going 1:21:55.920 --> 1:21:58.120 as hard as they can, as hard as we're going. 1:21:58.160 --> 1:22:01.240 I can't do this. And and this after a half 1:22:01.280 --> 1:22:03.920 hour of my I remember, I had a pad, and 1:22:03.960 --> 1:22:07.160 I listed all the things that were wrong in the relationship. 1:22:07.720 --> 1:22:11.439 Whatever if I would have known that they put the 1:22:11.479 --> 1:22:14.679 wrong a side on the record, that that's an example 1:22:15.040 --> 1:22:17.360 they've been on the list. Yeah, it's like, but that 1:22:17.479 --> 1:22:19.400 was indicative of what it was like. It was like 1:22:19.479 --> 1:22:22.000 nobody really cared. These guys do this ship that we 1:22:22.040 --> 1:22:26.040 don't understand, and luckily it sells, but we don't know 1:22:26.080 --> 1:22:27.960 what it is, and we don't really care what it is. 1:22:28.000 --> 1:22:32.000 We just don't want it to stop. But they always 1:22:32.680 --> 1:22:38.520 on one with Yetnikov or one on one with Dianor 1:22:38.920 --> 1:22:42.879 or Mattola, none of those guys. Einer wasn't there, Matola 1:22:42.960 --> 1:22:45.960 wasn't there. Yet It was so the guy al Teller 1:22:46.120 --> 1:22:49.439 was the president of the company. Mattola was his boss, 1:22:49.479 --> 1:22:51.680 but he wasn't really involved in what the day to 1:22:51.720 --> 1:22:53.680 day of Columbia records. So I had this meeting with 1:22:53.720 --> 1:22:55.720 the guy, the right person to have a meeting with. 1:22:56.160 --> 1:23:01.320 I have this meeting. I have a heartfelt, emotional He's 1:23:01.320 --> 1:23:06.559 sitting there holding a baseball bat through the meeting because he, yeah, 1:23:06.560 --> 1:23:08.880 he saw himself as kind of like tough. So he's 1:23:08.880 --> 1:23:11.400 sitting there holding this baseball bat. I'm talking twenty minutes, 1:23:11.439 --> 1:23:15.200 twenty five minutes. I'm crying at the end and telling 1:23:15.280 --> 1:23:17.519 them finally that if we can't work this stuff out, 1:23:17.560 --> 1:23:19.200 we can't get to the bottom of this. I gotta leave. 1:23:19.240 --> 1:23:21.360 And I said, you know, I never signed a contract. 1:23:21.439 --> 1:23:23.960 Russell signed the contract. I never signed anything. So I'm 1:23:23.960 --> 1:23:27.120 gonna have to leave. And he said, wait, wait a minute, 1:23:27.120 --> 1:23:30.080 wait a minute, what did you just say. And I said, 1:23:30.840 --> 1:23:33.400 I said I never Yeah, I said I never signed 1:23:33.400 --> 1:23:37.519 a contract. You know, only Russell signed. And he said, okay, 1:23:37.520 --> 1:23:39.400 wait a minute. You're going to have to start back 1:23:39.439 --> 1:23:42.080 at the beginning because I wasn't listening to anything. You 1:23:42.120 --> 1:23:42.960 were saying. 1:23:44.439 --> 1:23:45.640 That sound effect with me. 1:23:46.360 --> 1:23:49.840 This is this is really, this is real. 1:23:52.240 --> 1:23:56.759 So how long until death? Americans started right away? 1:23:56.800 --> 1:23:59.960 Because when I left Fjam I had already started, like 1:24:00.439 --> 1:24:05.200 Slayer was signed to death Jam originally, Danzig was signed 1:24:05.240 --> 1:24:09.600 to deaf Jam originally, and Dice. I can't remember if 1:24:09.680 --> 1:24:12.120 Dice was if I had already signed Dice or not. 1:24:12.920 --> 1:24:15.679 When I remember going out to lunch with Russell and saying, 1:24:15.720 --> 1:24:17.160 you know, this isn't going to work. I don't the 1:24:17.200 --> 1:24:22.759 relationship with Columbia's bad. And oh so what that meeting 1:24:22.760 --> 1:24:24.599 that I told you about, the start at the beginning 1:24:24.600 --> 1:24:32.000 again meeting? When that meeting, after that meeting, I told Russell, 1:24:32.080 --> 1:24:34.439 you know this is not good. We can't do this anymore. 1:24:34.960 --> 1:24:38.320 And the way that Colombia ended up fixing it was 1:24:38.360 --> 1:24:41.080 to write a big check to death Jam without dealing 1:24:41.120 --> 1:24:44.559 with any of the problems. It was just a check 1:24:45.880 --> 1:24:47.640 and Russell was cool with that, and I was not 1:24:47.720 --> 1:24:50.080 cool with that. So that was sort of the you 1:24:50.120 --> 1:24:52.439 know what, I don't think we can do this anymore, 1:24:52.479 --> 1:24:54.160 Like this doesn't feel right. And I said to him, 1:24:54.200 --> 1:24:57.120 I said, do you want to leave the company? And 1:24:57.160 --> 1:24:58.920 he said I don't want to leave and I said, okay, 1:24:59.000 --> 1:25:01.439 I guess I'll have to leave. And it was just 1:25:01.520 --> 1:25:01.880 like that. 1:25:02.520 --> 1:25:08.559 It wasn't I thought that, Yeah, yikes, because you left 1:25:08.600 --> 1:25:11.840 before well you left after the Beasties left, correct. 1:25:12.479 --> 1:25:15.720 Well left after the Beasties left. Yeah, yeah, how did 1:25:16.160 --> 1:25:16.519 did you? 1:25:16.560 --> 1:25:19.600 And like uh at Rock or any of them, did 1:25:19.640 --> 1:25:23.360 y'all have have conversations about why you both left or where? 1:25:23.560 --> 1:25:23.960 Interesting? 1:25:24.120 --> 1:25:29.040 Interestingly, interestingly, we have never really discussed it, and it's 1:25:29.200 --> 1:25:31.439 definitely an elephant in the room that would be good 1:25:31.520 --> 1:25:34.360 to discuss, and we just never did. But I'm sure 1:25:34.400 --> 1:25:38.400 it'll happen. It may happen next week, like it'll happen. 1:25:38.760 --> 1:25:40.920 What were your thoughts on Paul's boutique? 1:25:41.720 --> 1:25:43.880 Loved it, thought it was the I remember listening to 1:25:43.920 --> 1:25:46.799 it at the Mandrian Hotel, me and Chuck d together. 1:25:46.920 --> 1:25:49.639 We were We were there because I think Public Enemy 1:25:49.680 --> 1:25:51.680 was going to appear somewhere in California. I don't know 1:25:51.680 --> 1:25:54.120 whether it was a club date or a TV show, 1:25:54.920 --> 1:25:57.520 but we're at the Mandre on we got an advance. 1:25:58.000 --> 1:25:59.320 I don't even know if it was in advance. It 1:25:59.400 --> 1:26:01.360 might have just been like from the studio like they 1:26:01.400 --> 1:26:04.280 had just finished it and me and Chuck listened to 1:26:04.320 --> 1:26:06.559 it and we both thought, oh my god, this is 1:26:06.600 --> 1:26:08.519 the greatest thing we've ever heard. This is the future 1:26:08.600 --> 1:26:11.559 hip hop like this is. It doesn't get better than this, 1:26:11.960 --> 1:26:15.559 and we were shocked that it was not as well 1:26:15.600 --> 1:26:17.599 received as we thought it deserved to be. 1:26:18.479 --> 1:26:20.880 Thing that I remembered the most, at least your first 1:26:20.960 --> 1:26:24.320 year of Death American, was all the press that you 1:26:24.479 --> 1:26:28.439 got as far as the Ghetto Boys were concerned. How 1:26:28.479 --> 1:26:32.160 did they come, how did they come across your radar? 1:26:33.360 --> 1:26:37.800 And what was it about them that drew each to them? 1:26:38.080 --> 1:26:44.720 And all the ensuing controversy that came with them, Like. 1:26:44.720 --> 1:26:49.559 Yeah, I had never heard like NWA was already happening. 1:26:49.840 --> 1:26:52.280 Well maybe just the Easy E album. I don't know 1:26:52.280 --> 1:26:54.040 if there was an NWA album yet. There was an 1:26:54.080 --> 1:26:57.439 Easy E album for sure, and I loved Easy E. 1:26:57.920 --> 1:27:02.679 And then I heard the Ghetto Boys and I felt like, oh, 1:27:02.840 --> 1:27:09.439 like where NWA was gangster, this is like hard in 1:27:09.520 --> 1:27:15.919 that way, but more like more unhinged, more like horror 1:27:17.720 --> 1:27:21.160 like like violent but not violent like a bad drug 1:27:21.200 --> 1:27:25.320 deal gone wrong, like violent like a horror movie, you know, 1:27:25.439 --> 1:27:31.479 like dismemberment crazy. And I just liked the how extreme 1:27:31.520 --> 1:27:34.400 it was. It spoke to me right away, and I 1:27:34.400 --> 1:27:39.200 thought that the album didn't sound It didn't sound as 1:27:39.240 --> 1:27:42.040 good as it could have. So I remixed the album. 1:27:42.400 --> 1:27:45.040 I didn't add anything to it, or I just basically 1:27:45.080 --> 1:27:48.920 remixed the album and changed the cover and changed the 1:27:49.000 --> 1:27:53.639 name because they were called the Ghetto Boys g hgg yeah, 1:27:53.680 --> 1:27:56.919 and I thought, you know it, it sounds too ordinary, 1:27:57.680 --> 1:27:59.280 like they could be the Ghetto Boys, which would be 1:27:59.320 --> 1:28:02.559 the get Old Boys, just because it I don't know, 1:28:02.560 --> 1:28:05.920 I just thought it was more interesting, would look better 1:28:05.960 --> 1:28:07.000 on T shirts as well. 1:28:07.720 --> 1:28:13.040 Okay, so, how how much of I'm in now? 1:28:13.040 --> 1:28:18.400 It's like, especially in the environment that we're in right now, 1:28:18.680 --> 1:28:26.120 as far as like uh, right wing Republican Christian news 1:28:26.160 --> 1:28:28.479 talking points and those things like you know, now it's 1:28:28.479 --> 1:28:32.040 sort of like you collectively roll your eyes or that, 1:28:32.160 --> 1:28:35.559 you know, like that side of the fence is lying. 1:28:36.160 --> 1:28:41.600 But back in nineteen eighty nine, ninety like, they it 1:28:42.040 --> 1:28:45.880 seemed like real threats. And I remember I knew the 1:28:45.880 --> 1:28:49.479 Ghetto Boys because one Chuck Jees chucked Thees shouted them 1:28:49.479 --> 1:28:53.439 out on fear of a Black Panet Planet album. But 1:28:54.720 --> 1:29:01.000 all the controversy of Scarface's lyrics being faling points for 1:29:01.240 --> 1:29:06.519 everybody running for Senate, any Republican running for Senate or 1:29:06.560 --> 1:29:10.200 the House using this thing like to this was this 1:29:10.280 --> 1:29:13.480 manner from heaven like for you is, I had controversy 1:29:13.640 --> 1:29:16.479 and bad news, like, yes, this is what I want 1:29:16.520 --> 1:29:18.479 to be your parents' worst nightmare. 1:29:18.600 --> 1:29:20.840 This is the first TI I'm ever hearing of that 1:29:20.880 --> 1:29:21.519 being the case. 1:29:22.200 --> 1:29:26.519 What you mean, Ted White? Ted White? I think who 1:29:26.800 --> 1:29:28.439 ran Billboard? Oh man? 1:29:28.479 --> 1:29:32.800 He wrote like paragraphs and dissertation of mind of all 1:29:33.320 --> 1:29:36.760 I would have never ever like the surefireway to get 1:29:36.840 --> 1:29:40.000 a seventeen eighteen year old to buy the ship. It's 1:29:40.080 --> 1:29:43.679 because Ted White could not a billboard, could not stop 1:29:43.760 --> 1:29:48.800 writing about how violent Scarface's mind of a lunatic was 1:29:49.320 --> 1:29:52.559 and this needs to be banned and shit. I was like, word, 1:29:52.600 --> 1:29:55.880 I'm gonna buy this shit. Yeah, Lama parents hated it 1:29:55.960 --> 1:29:56.599 must be good. 1:29:56.800 --> 1:29:59.519 Yeah. I always like crazy shit, you know, I like 1:30:00.280 --> 1:30:05.000 edgy crazy shit. It's interesting to me. It's fun. 1:30:06.479 --> 1:30:11.280 But you do realize like being parents' worst nightmare. 1:30:11.160 --> 1:30:14.000 Is also like that's great marketing. 1:30:14.320 --> 1:30:18.840 That's a regged execs candy like that. That's so that 1:30:18.920 --> 1:30:20.080 never excited you at all. 1:30:20.880 --> 1:30:25.080 No, I never never thought about it because usually I 1:30:25.080 --> 1:30:27.000 would have to get the calls more like the record 1:30:27.040 --> 1:30:28.760 company not wanting to put it out, you know, that's 1:30:28.800 --> 1:30:32.080 what I had to deal with, Like Slayer, Columbia Records 1:30:32.080 --> 1:30:34.120 refused to put out that Slayer record, So then I 1:30:34.160 --> 1:30:36.639 had to find a new way to release it, even 1:30:36.640 --> 1:30:38.320 though the first one was on Deaf Jam, but it 1:30:38.360 --> 1:30:42.040 wasn't through Columbia because they refused to release it. Then 1:30:42.240 --> 1:30:44.719 I made a deal with Geffen Records, which is where 1:30:44.760 --> 1:30:47.720 that went. And then in my deal with Geffen, I 1:30:47.760 --> 1:30:50.479 had to have complete creative control where they could never 1:30:50.520 --> 1:30:52.599 come to me and say they're not going to put 1:30:52.640 --> 1:30:55.920 something out. And then when it came to Andrew Dice 1:30:55.960 --> 1:30:58.120 Clay or the Ghetto Boys, You're like, well, we're not 1:30:58.160 --> 1:31:00.519 going to put it out. It's like the whole reason 1:31:00.640 --> 1:31:03.000 I'm at your company is because I need a safe 1:31:03.000 --> 1:31:05.200 place to put out crazy shit. That's why I'm here. 1:31:05.640 --> 1:31:09.479 This is what I do. And you'll see when you 1:31:09.520 --> 1:31:13.200 look back on it in time, it'll be the right decision. 1:31:13.439 --> 1:31:17.200 It'll be like you're too you're too close to the 1:31:17.320 --> 1:31:21.320 story now. But if you look back in history, important 1:31:21.360 --> 1:31:25.519 things often stick out like saw thumbs in their day 1:31:25.720 --> 1:31:31.599 and are hated or vilified, or they burned Beatles albums. 1:31:31.640 --> 1:31:35.280 You know, yeah, man, Elvis was the you know the Devil. 1:31:36.080 --> 1:31:39.439 What was it about the Black Crows that excited you 1:31:39.640 --> 1:31:41.760 to sign them to the label? Did you sign all 1:31:41.800 --> 1:31:43.760 the acts that were at least on the first run 1:31:43.840 --> 1:31:46.640 of Deaf Americans to the label or was it like, 1:31:46.640 --> 1:31:48.000 did you have a full staff and. 1:31:48.600 --> 1:31:50.720 You know didn't. I didn't have a full staff. But 1:31:50.760 --> 1:31:52.519 there was my friend who I went to school with 1:31:52.640 --> 1:31:57.400 named George Treculius, who who's been called out on a 1:31:57.439 --> 1:31:58.160 Beastie record. 1:31:58.160 --> 1:32:01.200 Maybe well, he's also been my boss the few movies 1:32:01.240 --> 1:32:01.919 that I scored. 1:32:02.320 --> 1:32:02.719 George. 1:32:03.000 --> 1:32:07.160 If you're clearing music in movies, Georgia Koliac, is that 1:32:07.360 --> 1:32:08.680 that's your guy that you work with? 1:32:08.720 --> 1:32:15.160 Okay, great? So George was he was an inter. It's funny. 1:32:15.439 --> 1:32:18.400 I was an intern at Deaf Jam when I owned 1:32:18.400 --> 1:32:21.599 Deaf Jam at NYU. And the reason I was an 1:32:21.600 --> 1:32:24.479 intern was because then I got school credit for working 1:32:24.479 --> 1:32:30.920 at Deaf Jam. George was. George was my intern at 1:32:30.960 --> 1:32:34.920 Deaf Jam where he got credit in the dorm, and 1:32:34.920 --> 1:32:36.759 then there was a time when he was my roommate 1:32:36.840 --> 1:32:42.519 in the dorm if I remember correctly. And George he 1:32:42.600 --> 1:32:46.080 found the Black Crows and that was his both his 1:32:46.240 --> 1:32:48.920 signing and his production. That was his vision and the 1:32:49.040 --> 1:32:52.320 Jayhawks as well. He signed the Jayhawks and never. 1:32:52.160 --> 1:32:53.840 Told me that. Wow, I didn't know that. 1:32:55.640 --> 1:32:59.439 Hey, wait all these old Deaf jam questions are coming 1:32:59.479 --> 1:33:04.960 back to me now. The the storyline to crust groof 1:33:07.479 --> 1:33:11.479 how much of that was actual life. I'm trying to 1:33:11.479 --> 1:33:15.840 get to the kind of uncut Jim's robbing Peter to 1:33:15.920 --> 1:33:20.639 pay Paul narrative of like did you guys ever have 1:33:21.120 --> 1:33:24.479 Like that's the storyline of having to borrow money to 1:33:24.680 --> 1:33:28.160 press up twelve inches or to keep up with demand. 1:33:28.240 --> 1:33:31.320 That's holly Hollywood fakery. That's none of that. 1:33:32.320 --> 1:33:37.000 Okay, just check it, just check it. Yeah. 1:33:37.040 --> 1:33:41.280 So outside of Deaf American recordings, can you talk about 1:33:41.360 --> 1:33:46.080 your your your work with with Johnny Cash and how 1:33:46.160 --> 1:33:50.240 you got him back to his glory point, because I mean, 1:33:50.240 --> 1:33:53.519 I would imagine before you two worked together he was 1:33:53.560 --> 1:33:59.080 sort of waning in the creative department at least, like 1:33:59.120 --> 1:34:01.400 with the last four records that he worked on with you. 1:34:01.600 --> 1:34:05.400 That was like probably one of the best storied comebacks 1:34:06.479 --> 1:34:07.599 in a music career. 1:34:07.640 --> 1:34:13.560 What was it like working with him? 1:34:13.880 --> 1:34:16.040 Coolest thing, coolest thing that ever happened in my life. 1:34:16.120 --> 1:34:23.240 He was a beautiful brilliant, humble, interesting, quiet guy who 1:34:23.800 --> 1:34:29.240 studied history. He had a tremendous amount of wisdom that 1:34:29.280 --> 1:34:32.880 he didn't offer unless you drew him out. He was 1:34:32.920 --> 1:34:37.560 pretty reserved, but if you asked him about stuff, he 1:34:37.600 --> 1:34:39.080 would tell you about it. And he knew a lot 1:34:39.120 --> 1:34:41.519 about a lot of things, and a tremendous amount about 1:34:41.600 --> 1:34:45.759 music and the history of country music and folk music. 1:34:47.080 --> 1:34:49.200 And I learned a tremendous amount being around him. 1:34:49.600 --> 1:34:52.240 Did you get a chance to personally know him? Like 1:34:52.880 --> 1:34:56.360 was he telling you stories of recording for Son and 1:34:56.640 --> 1:35:00.280 that whole million dollar session thing and everything you ever 1:35:00.320 --> 1:35:00.800 wanted to know? 1:35:00.880 --> 1:35:05.840 And he would I got to know him personally well. 1:35:05.880 --> 1:35:07.320 He would stay at my house when he came to 1:35:07.439 --> 1:35:08.880 LA I would say, at his house if I went 1:35:08.920 --> 1:35:13.679 to Nashville. I don't know how much we talked about 1:35:13.720 --> 1:35:16.439 old times unless there was a specific reason to her. 1:35:16.479 --> 1:35:19.640 If I had a particular interest, he would tell me 1:35:19.680 --> 1:35:24.320 stories about about Sam Phillips. Though, okay, oh wow, he 1:35:24.400 --> 1:35:25.560 loved Sam Phillips. 1:35:25.840 --> 1:35:28.559 Which artist opens up to you the most as far 1:35:28.640 --> 1:35:32.160 as uh, I don't know if you have the same 1:35:32.240 --> 1:35:37.320 relationship with say A jay Z that you would with 1:35:38.120 --> 1:35:41.320 Anthony Keatis So I know there's different degrees of getting 1:35:41.360 --> 1:35:44.479 to know your clients as you're producing them. And I 1:35:44.520 --> 1:35:47.400 know there's an an artist producer trust that has to 1:35:47.400 --> 1:35:49.800 be established, but I know there's different degrees of that 1:35:51.000 --> 1:35:54.320 of like which artists I mean, And this is not 1:35:54.439 --> 1:35:57.799 asking what's your favorite artist you've worked with, but who's 1:35:58.080 --> 1:36:03.080 who's the closest. Who do you know the best that 1:36:03.160 --> 1:36:06.200 you feel comfortable that you're just actual friends with, like 1:36:06.400 --> 1:36:07.759 really friends? 1:36:08.080 --> 1:36:09.920 Is that the mars? Well, the guys? Is it? 1:36:11.000 --> 1:36:13.000 I feel like I'm friends with a lot a lot 1:36:13.080 --> 1:36:17.520 of them. I'm just thinking if there are any unique standouts, 1:36:18.040 --> 1:36:20.400 I would say the people who I've made the most 1:36:20.520 --> 1:36:25.240 albums with. That plays a role, just because you're around 1:36:25.320 --> 1:36:27.719 them more, you know, it's just more hours together. 1:36:30.240 --> 1:36:30.400 Yeah. 1:36:30.439 --> 1:36:32.120 So, like I've been around the Chili Peppers a lot, 1:36:32.560 --> 1:36:36.760 so I probably know them better than somebody who I 1:36:36.800 --> 1:36:39.000 did you know a couple of songs with like jay Z. 1:36:39.479 --> 1:36:41.920 But I feel very comfortable when I hang out with 1:36:42.000 --> 1:36:45.280 jay Z. I feel like pretty good friends feels good. 1:36:45.520 --> 1:36:47.479 I me just so close with Andrew Dice play though, 1:36:47.479 --> 1:36:49.960 I'm just saying I was. 1:36:50.040 --> 1:36:52.040 I was pretty close with Dice. I would go out 1:36:52.040 --> 1:36:55.680 every night to the comedy store after my session, and 1:36:55.840 --> 1:36:58.559 we would hang out in the kitchen of the comedy Storre. 1:36:58.640 --> 1:37:00.400 Chris Rock would be there often also. 1:37:01.320 --> 1:37:04.880 I mean with the Chili Peppers, how do you how 1:37:04.880 --> 1:37:08.439 do you see their growth as from where they were 1:37:09.520 --> 1:37:16.160 in nineteen ninety one. I'd assume that Blood Sugar, Sex 1:37:16.240 --> 1:37:18.280 Magic was the first time you work with them. 1:37:18.479 --> 1:37:19.479 You didn't do Mother's Milk? 1:37:19.520 --> 1:37:23.360 Correct, No, No, although I like I thought Mother's Milk 1:37:23.439 --> 1:37:27.639 was their best record to date. That was the Mother's 1:37:27.680 --> 1:37:30.200 Milk was the record that made me excited to work 1:37:30.240 --> 1:37:30.559 with them. 1:37:31.280 --> 1:37:35.480 Okay, so how is it working with them and managing 1:37:36.200 --> 1:37:40.040 their you know whatever, you have to juggle to make 1:37:40.080 --> 1:37:45.880 it right as opposed to once they became more like 1:37:45.920 --> 1:37:48.240 a comfortable shoe that you were familiar with. 1:37:49.479 --> 1:37:52.800 I'll say, I think it's the same. I don't think. 1:37:54.479 --> 1:37:59.080 I think the goal is always to treat people respectfully 1:37:59.360 --> 1:38:03.960 and honestly, and that happens regardless of how deep the 1:38:04.040 --> 1:38:06.400 relationship is. I don't I don't think that changes. It's 1:38:06.439 --> 1:38:10.200 pretty much the thing we're there to do looks the 1:38:10.240 --> 1:38:14.160 same either way. The only other thing that I'll say 1:38:14.200 --> 1:38:16.240 with the artists who I've made many records with another 1:38:16.280 --> 1:38:18.240 like System of a Down, I made all of their albums. 1:38:19.680 --> 1:38:23.800 With the bands that that I've worked with several times, 1:38:24.320 --> 1:38:28.000 there there gets to be a shorthand where like usually 1:38:28.000 --> 1:38:30.519 the first record we make together, same Tom, Petty, all 1:38:30.800 --> 1:38:33.280 of them. The first record we make together takes the 1:38:33.360 --> 1:38:35.120 longest because we're like. 1:38:35.120 --> 1:38:36.400 Filling each other out. 1:38:36.560 --> 1:38:39.439 Yeah, like figuring out a vocabulary of how we're going 1:38:39.520 --> 1:38:44.360 to do it. But once that's established, it's much easier 1:38:44.400 --> 1:38:48.200 after that, but only only out of just that decoding, 1:38:48.400 --> 1:38:49.960 you know, decoding the system. 1:38:51.439 --> 1:38:57.439 Do you prefer piecemeal projects as far as getting you know, 1:38:57.560 --> 1:38:59.559 they just say, look, I just want one song like 1:38:59.600 --> 1:39:03.320 you did one song on Justin Timberlake's record for Future 1:39:03.360 --> 1:39:10.160 Sex Sounds. Damn that sounds sex Love Sounds, Future Sex 1:39:10.200 --> 1:39:10.920 Magic Sounds. 1:39:10.920 --> 1:39:11.320 I don't know. 1:39:12.320 --> 1:39:16.880 As opposed to doing an entire album, what would you 1:39:16.960 --> 1:39:17.799 what do you prefer? 1:39:18.479 --> 1:39:21.799 I really like making albums. I don't like doing songs 1:39:22.160 --> 1:39:27.680 because I think that the nature of the process to 1:39:27.800 --> 1:39:31.240 get to an album, to get to one song, or 1:39:31.280 --> 1:39:34.759 to get to an album could be the same amount 1:39:34.840 --> 1:39:39.960 of experimentation. Do you know what I'm saying? Like to 1:39:41.040 --> 1:39:45.760 find the voice. If you're working on one song, it 1:39:45.760 --> 1:39:48.640 takes just as long to figure out what that is. 1:39:49.800 --> 1:39:52.680 It may be longer because in a way, when you're 1:39:52.680 --> 1:39:55.280 working on one shot, you only got one shot and 1:39:55.280 --> 1:39:57.559 it's hard to even know the way in. But sometimes 1:39:57.600 --> 1:40:01.880 you'd be working on twenty songs and one song you're like, oh, 1:40:02.800 --> 1:40:05.320 that's the key to the whole thing. Now we know 1:40:05.360 --> 1:40:06.479 how it's all gonna work. 1:40:07.000 --> 1:40:09.080 Do you do you ever run into a situation in 1:40:09.120 --> 1:40:15.240 which where that trust isn't isn't there where you know 1:40:15.560 --> 1:40:18.000 an artist is stubborn, they feel that you know, well, 1:40:18.439 --> 1:40:22.559 you know. I'm giving a hypothetical example. I don't know, 1:40:22.720 --> 1:40:28.639 like if you can tell Adele okay, sing this shit again, 1:40:28.800 --> 1:40:32.680 give me take nine and she'll knock it out the 1:40:32.680 --> 1:40:36.479 part as opposed to again convincing the beastie boys that 1:40:37.280 --> 1:40:40.800 fight for your right is the song and trust me 1:40:40.880 --> 1:40:41.439 on this one? 1:40:42.120 --> 1:40:44.000 Like how much trust me on this one? 1:40:44.240 --> 1:40:44.759 End? Quote? 1:40:45.439 --> 1:40:49.040 Do you have to go through in your post in 1:40:49.120 --> 1:40:53.960 your post def Jam post American Recordings career? It's like 1:40:54.120 --> 1:40:56.920 now in terms of like working with Neil Diamond or 1:40:57.640 --> 1:40:58.720 even James. 1:40:58.400 --> 1:41:03.400 Blake, Yeah, most never, almost never trust me on this one. 1:41:03.520 --> 1:41:07.640 I don't like that. The goal is to And I 1:41:07.680 --> 1:41:10.200 always say at the beginning of a project, it's like 1:41:11.640 --> 1:41:15.240 everyone has to like it. Everyone here has to love it. 1:41:15.800 --> 1:41:18.639 If I love it and you don't love it, we failed. 1:41:19.040 --> 1:41:21.400 If you love it and I don't love it, we failed. 1:41:22.320 --> 1:41:25.240 It just means we haven't gone far enough if we 1:41:25.320 --> 1:41:26.080 don't all love it. 1:41:26.640 --> 1:41:28.800 Have you ever had to walk away from a project. 1:41:29.040 --> 1:41:30.760 I've never had to walk away, but I've been walked 1:41:30.760 --> 1:41:33.880 away on I'm not a quitter. I don't I don't 1:41:33.960 --> 1:41:37.840 quit projects. But there have been there have been a 1:41:38.000 --> 1:41:40.920 I can tell you. I can tell you about a couple. Okay, 1:41:41.040 --> 1:41:44.799 tell me we tried like I started an album with Crosby, 1:41:44.840 --> 1:41:51.080 Sills and Nash and ten years ago twelve okay twelve ten, 1:41:51.160 --> 1:41:54.680 about ten years ago, and it was a and there 1:41:54.720 --> 1:41:56.599 was a case of there being a lack of trust, 1:41:56.640 --> 1:42:00.120 but the lack of trust more had to do with themselves, well, 1:42:00.280 --> 1:42:03.120 like within the band. Like there's another interesting thing. When 1:42:03.120 --> 1:42:05.559 the Chili Peppers first asked me to produce them, it 1:42:05.600 --> 1:42:08.280 was before Blood Sugar Sex Magic. It was two albums 1:42:08.280 --> 1:42:13.400 before that. Sally Think it was Freaky Sily, the one, 1:42:13.680 --> 1:42:15.839 the one where it was all of the original members. 1:42:15.960 --> 1:42:21.040 And I remember a friend of mine, Yeah, whichever one 1:42:21.160 --> 1:42:23.120 had all of the original members, because a friend of 1:42:23.120 --> 1:42:27.360 mine said, who loved them, said, if you're ever going 1:42:27.400 --> 1:42:29.120 to produce the Chili Peppers, now is the time. It's 1:42:29.160 --> 1:42:32.040 all of the original members. This is the time. So 1:42:32.280 --> 1:42:35.880 me and Adam Harrovitz, beastie boy Adam Harvitz, went to 1:42:36.000 --> 1:42:39.800 a rehearsal in La on Sunset Boulevard of the Chili 1:42:39.800 --> 1:42:42.880 Peppers at that time, and there was just a weird, 1:42:43.160 --> 1:42:46.240 bad vibe in the room. Had nothing to do with us. 1:42:46.320 --> 1:42:49.439 It was just between them. It felt shady, and I 1:42:49.439 --> 1:42:51.320 didn't know what it was. Now I've come to learn 1:42:51.400 --> 1:42:53.880 later it was drugs, but I didn't I didn't know that. 1:42:54.080 --> 1:42:55.479 I didn't know what to look for at that time. 1:42:55.880 --> 1:43:00.200 I just felt like I think it was before he died. Yes, 1:43:00.560 --> 1:43:03.360 but there was a sense that these guys don't trust 1:43:03.360 --> 1:43:06.360 each other, like they didn't look at each other with 1:43:06.520 --> 1:43:10.719 like it just felt shaky. The whole thing felt shaky, 1:43:11.360 --> 1:43:13.439 and it felt like, I don't really think this is 1:43:13.520 --> 1:43:15.200 right for me to be around, Like I don't know 1:43:15.200 --> 1:43:18.719 how to do this. And another one was Joe Cocker. 1:43:19.600 --> 1:43:22.720 I went into the studio with Joe Cocker. I had 1:43:22.760 --> 1:43:25.840 it at the time that I produced a CDC, and 1:43:25.880 --> 1:43:28.840 I got Malcolm Young to play rhythm guitar on Joe 1:43:28.880 --> 1:43:35.040 Cocker record, Mike Campbell from the Heartbreakers, Benmont from the Heartbreakers. 1:43:35.400 --> 1:43:37.080 It was a really good band. It was really good 1:43:37.080 --> 1:43:44.880 session and Joe I wanted it to be a very raw, guttural, 1:43:46.160 --> 1:43:53.280 emotional album. And Joe saw himself more like Sting. He 1:43:53.360 --> 1:43:54.960 wanted it to be more like a Sting. 1:43:54.720 --> 1:43:58.439 Album, like Jazzy Sank, like. 1:43:59.720 --> 1:44:04.160 Very produced, adult, very adult. 1:44:04.240 --> 1:44:08.240 A man he wanted, he want, he wanted his Grammy moment, 1:44:08.720 --> 1:44:10.400 and and I. 1:44:10.400 --> 1:44:13.400 Just it wasn't. It wasn't so much as I don't 1:44:13.439 --> 1:44:15.839 feel like I quit. It was just like our visions 1:44:15.880 --> 1:44:20.440 were so different that it just no one was really interested. 1:44:21.160 --> 1:44:23.360 We didn't nobody wanted to make the same thing, so 1:44:23.439 --> 1:44:26.759 that one didn't happen. Yes, but considering how many albums 1:44:26.800 --> 1:44:30.000 I've made, I could count on one hand, less than 1:44:30.040 --> 1:44:32.479 one hand, how many times it has not worked out. 1:44:33.120 --> 1:44:35.479 You mentioned a c DC, and I'm gonna forget this question. 1:44:36.720 --> 1:44:40.920 Are are they do they have an iota or or 1:44:41.240 --> 1:44:46.720 are they even remotely aware of how much flick of 1:44:46.760 --> 1:44:49.400 the Switch has changed your life personally. 1:44:50.560 --> 1:44:52.599 Other than what I told them, you know, I told 1:44:52.680 --> 1:44:56.320 I would tell them it's like their their music. 1:44:57.200 --> 1:45:00.559 They have no idea that that one note has. Oh 1:45:01.400 --> 1:45:02.080 is that where it's from? 1:45:02.120 --> 1:45:03.400 I don't even know. I just ran on. 1:45:06.720 --> 1:45:09.479 No, no, I knocked the bells and just the the 1:45:09.680 --> 1:45:15.880 trademark Rick Rubin is okay. I always wanted to know. 1:45:16.320 --> 1:45:18.760 I wouldn't even know. It's so funny. I wouldn't have 1:45:18.840 --> 1:45:22.559 even known that that's what it was. I just literally 1:45:22.600 --> 1:45:23.920 every time it's like, oh, I think it's on an 1:45:23.920 --> 1:45:26.360 ac DC record, and I just hunt through every track 1:45:26.680 --> 1:45:28.120 until I find something. 1:45:28.360 --> 1:45:35.280 Something like that. Man, Okay, so El's sophomore record. 1:45:35.600 --> 1:45:40.320 It's an interesting, unusual, unusual story. I don't believe I've 1:45:40.320 --> 1:45:44.920 ever told it publicly. At the time that I met Elle, 1:45:45.920 --> 1:45:50.360 he was being raised. His mom was in the picture, 1:45:50.479 --> 1:45:53.080 but he's mainly being raised by his grandmother, and he 1:45:53.120 --> 1:45:56.439 didn't know his dad. And then we made our first 1:45:56.439 --> 1:46:02.639 album together, and then he became cool J probably seventeen 1:46:02.680 --> 1:46:09.600 at that time. And then ELL's dad appears, Oh wow, 1:46:10.120 --> 1:46:14.280 and he comes back, and Ell obviously wants his dad 1:46:16.040 --> 1:46:22.760 and his and Russell was managing Ell, and Ell, if 1:46:22.840 --> 1:46:26.000 I remember correctly fired Russell and hired Jimmy, his dad, 1:46:26.040 --> 1:46:33.599 to be his manager, and I just I just felt 1:46:33.640 --> 1:46:36.879 like it was a bad vibe. Like I never discussed 1:46:36.880 --> 1:46:39.840 it with L. We never talked about it. It just 1:46:39.920 --> 1:46:45.920 felt like something's going on here that's dark, and this 1:46:46.080 --> 1:46:48.519 is not energy for me to be around. This is 1:46:49.320 --> 1:46:52.960 good is not going to come from this situation, and 1:46:53.000 --> 1:46:55.200 I just sort of bowed out and then it ended 1:46:55.240 --> 1:47:00.080 up it ended up turning bad sometime. I don't know 1:47:00.160 --> 1:47:02.439 how much longer, but I think there ended up being 1:47:02.439 --> 1:47:04.479 problems between Ell and his dad after that. But it 1:47:05.000 --> 1:47:10.160 just it just felt too shady, felt too I didn't 1:47:10.240 --> 1:47:12.479 like that they were not nice to Russell when Russell 1:47:12.560 --> 1:47:15.360 really cared about L, like firing a guy who was 1:47:15.400 --> 1:47:18.400 really working for you. This new guy coming in the 1:47:18.439 --> 1:47:21.720 scene kind of under questionable. Yes he was his dad, 1:47:21.800 --> 1:47:24.000 but still why wasn't he his dad before? He was 1:47:24.040 --> 1:47:27.120 all cool, just right. It was just it just felt 1:47:27.280 --> 1:47:29.240 very weird. 1:47:30.439 --> 1:47:35.040 Can you explain to me what exactly was your role 1:47:36.760 --> 1:47:37.920 in Jesus. 1:47:39.120 --> 1:47:43.920 And in the life of Pablo, because it just to 1:47:44.000 --> 1:47:47.120 see the credits on the albums I'm just assuming that 1:47:47.360 --> 1:47:53.200 you're in a room with over twelve to twenty chefs 1:47:54.320 --> 1:47:58.640 and everyone's just throwing ideas in well, just based on 1:47:58.760 --> 1:48:01.519 looking at the album credits, like. 1:48:01.640 --> 1:48:06.679 Exactly, it's not not exactly how it worked. Kanye built 1:48:06.760 --> 1:48:11.840 up the material over years for the for that what 1:48:12.040 --> 1:48:13.360 ended up being uses. 1:48:14.720 --> 1:48:15.080 Okay. 1:48:16.080 --> 1:48:19.519 When he first came he called me. He called me 1:48:19.560 --> 1:48:20.880 and said, hey, I want to come over and play 1:48:20.880 --> 1:48:24.599 you my new album. Okay, It's like great. He came 1:48:24.640 --> 1:48:27.920 over and we listened to three hours of music yo 1:48:29.040 --> 1:48:35.479 with almost no vocals, like just yes, and it's like wow, cool, 1:48:35.520 --> 1:48:37.519 it's like off to a good start. What do you know? 1:48:38.760 --> 1:48:40.559 What are you thinking you're going to you know, make 1:48:40.760 --> 1:48:42.600 you think you'll finish next year or something. He's like, 1:48:43.160 --> 1:48:49.720 it's coming out in three weeks, where I said what 1:48:50.160 --> 1:48:51.840 it's like it made no sense. And then and I 1:48:51.840 --> 1:48:53.439 played on Black Sabbath. I said, you know, I have 1:48:53.520 --> 1:48:57.400 this Black Sabbath album that's done and mastered and that's 1:48:57.439 --> 1:48:59.920 not coming out in three weeks. That's coming out later 1:49:00.040 --> 1:49:03.840 than that. It's like this, this is what it sounds 1:49:03.880 --> 1:49:09.880 like when it's coming out in three weeks. And he said, 1:49:10.600 --> 1:49:12.320 I want you to help me finish it. I want 1:49:12.320 --> 1:49:17.720 it to be like, let's finish it. And it was 1:49:17.920 --> 1:49:21.280 a terrifying experience because I'd never worked on anything like that. 1:49:21.320 --> 1:49:23.439 I don't like to work on a deadline ever. Anyway, 1:49:23.560 --> 1:49:26.240 it's like I always feel like it. It sort of 1:49:26.280 --> 1:49:29.719 happens as it's supposed to happen. Some things happened very quickly, 1:49:29.760 --> 1:49:32.679 some things take a long time. ELL's first album probably 1:49:32.680 --> 1:49:36.320 took less than a month to record. And when I 1:49:36.320 --> 1:49:40.479 say less than a month, meaning a song a day 1:49:40.520 --> 1:49:44.080 that's on the album over the course of a month, 1:49:44.760 --> 1:49:46.240 you know what I'm saying. Not in the studio every 1:49:46.280 --> 1:49:49.200 day for a month, like I got a new track, 1:49:49.280 --> 1:49:54.400 let's go in on Thursday. That happening totally a month. 1:49:54.560 --> 1:49:59.400 Whereas the First beast With the First Beasties album was 1:49:59.520 --> 1:50:03.360 probably two years in the making, and it just took 1:50:03.400 --> 1:50:06.280 that long. It just took not every day again, it 1:50:06.320 --> 1:50:09.639 was like, I gotcha. It just takes a long time 1:50:09.720 --> 1:50:12.000 because the you're waiting for the ideas to come. It's 1:50:12.040 --> 1:50:14.920 like it's not pre written, we're writing it now. 1:50:15.160 --> 1:50:15.400 Now. 1:50:15.720 --> 1:50:17.800 Most of the artists I work with, we don't go 1:50:17.840 --> 1:50:21.000 into the studio until it's mostly all written, so it's 1:50:21.040 --> 1:50:23.519 a different it's a different experience, and that could happen 1:50:23.840 --> 1:50:24.880 in a much shorter time. 1:50:25.200 --> 1:50:27.280 Wait, so did Kanye already have his verses written but 1:50:27.360 --> 1:50:29.800 they just weren't on on the tracks? 1:50:30.320 --> 1:50:34.439 No? No, Well, it wasn't even clear what the songs 1:50:34.439 --> 1:50:35.920 were going to sound like or what was going to 1:50:35.960 --> 1:50:39.960 be on the album. It was a very wide range 1:50:40.000 --> 1:50:42.439 of songs and it was super cool. It was cool. 1:50:42.560 --> 1:50:45.320 I've come to learn that's the way he works. This 1:50:45.439 --> 1:50:48.400 was I never worked like that before, so it was 1:50:48.479 --> 1:50:51.360 unusual to me. To him, it was standard in the past. 1:50:51.400 --> 1:50:53.360 When I've said he wrote you know, half of the 1:50:53.439 --> 1:50:57.040 lyrics on the last two days, that like I'm saying 1:50:57.040 --> 1:51:00.000 he doesn't care about it. That's not at all the case. 1:51:01.040 --> 1:51:05.120 It's his process is living with it. He's singing to 1:51:05.240 --> 1:51:09.439 himself internally all the time, and he doesn't like to commit. 1:51:09.880 --> 1:51:15.080 He doesn't commit it down until it's going to stay 1:51:15.400 --> 1:51:19.680 because otherwise it's going to change. So he doesn't like 1:51:19.720 --> 1:51:21.479 if he would have done if he would have played 1:51:21.479 --> 1:51:23.560 me songs with vocals done, the album already would have 1:51:23.600 --> 1:51:25.679 been out right in the way he works. 1:51:26.960 --> 1:51:31.880 Yeah, I was going to say, I remember whatever day 1:51:31.960 --> 1:51:37.280 that Yeesues came out, I remember texting you maybe like 1:51:37.439 --> 1:51:42.280 three days before, just on some okay, is it going 1:51:42.360 --> 1:51:45.840 to happen or not? Because I think they had a 1:51:45.880 --> 1:51:48.880 pushback date or whatever. There was like a day that 1:51:48.880 --> 1:51:51.320 I was supposed to come out and it didn't, and 1:51:51.360 --> 1:51:55.280 you were like, we're literally in the middle of trying to. 1:51:55.200 --> 1:51:56.320 Wrap up right now. 1:51:57.080 --> 1:51:59.640 And I was like, wait a minute, if you're in 1:51:59.680 --> 1:52:02.400 the middle trapping like doing it right now, then is 1:52:02.439 --> 1:52:05.120 the record pressed up? And like I'm thinking in terms 1:52:05.160 --> 1:52:06.840 of the old system where you had to turn it 1:52:06.880 --> 1:52:10.960 in three months ahead of time, factory all those things, 1:52:11.520 --> 1:52:14.639 and literally, well even with Pablo, you guys were still 1:52:14.800 --> 1:52:18.800 editing and changing it. And next thing I knew I 1:52:18.800 --> 1:52:21.080 had three different versions of the Pablo record because he 1:52:21.240 --> 1:52:22.599 just kept changing over again. 1:52:23.439 --> 1:52:26.240 I remember when we finished Yesus and it came out 1:52:26.400 --> 1:52:29.920 about a week later. A week or two later, kind 1:52:29.920 --> 1:52:33.080 of came to the studio in Malibu and just we 1:52:33.200 --> 1:52:34.840 just started talking about what do you think's next, Like 1:52:34.880 --> 1:52:36.360 what do you think the next one's going to be like? 1:52:36.479 --> 1:52:41.439 And he was kind of excited to at least start 1:52:42.080 --> 1:52:44.960 marching in a direction, and we just started brainstorming and 1:52:45.000 --> 1:52:47.920 we had an idea then that actually ended up it 1:52:48.040 --> 1:52:51.760 ended up not being so much what not so much 1:52:51.760 --> 1:52:54.720 what Pablo's like, but it has come around to that eventually. 1:52:55.800 --> 1:52:59.720 But the but after we had a similar conversation the end. 1:52:59.720 --> 1:53:03.160 When Pablo got delivered, I was in Hawaii and I 1:53:03.200 --> 1:53:06.000 remember getting you know, new versions of the album every 1:53:06.080 --> 1:53:08.360 day to listen to and give my notes. And I 1:53:08.400 --> 1:53:11.040 was giving notes every day. It's like I just listened. 1:53:11.040 --> 1:53:14.080 I would drive up and down the road here in 1:53:14.200 --> 1:53:17.040 Kawhi and listen and like, Okay, this is you know, 1:53:17.120 --> 1:53:19.559 this is working. Let's remix this, Let's try this, and 1:53:19.600 --> 1:53:21.519 whatever notes, you know, anything that I could add to 1:53:21.680 --> 1:53:27.280 help make it better. And then I talked to Kanye again, 1:53:27.439 --> 1:53:29.519 like it was now ritual a couple of weeks after 1:53:29.560 --> 1:53:32.760 the record comes out and and I say, oh, so 1:53:32.800 --> 1:53:34.200 what are you thinking about? What are you what are 1:53:34.200 --> 1:53:36.360 you working on? He's like, I'm working on this mix 1:53:36.439 --> 1:53:39.639 on so and so. It's one of the songs on Pablo. 1:53:39.720 --> 1:53:44.880 It's like, that's out. What are you talking about. He's like, well, yeah, 1:53:44.880 --> 1:53:49.000 it's out, but I'm not done yet, like really, like 1:53:49.320 --> 1:53:52.519 I it just like blew my mind. The conversation blew 1:53:52.600 --> 1:53:57.160 my mind because up until well yeah, in my over 1:53:57.160 --> 1:54:01.240 the course of my life. Once it came out, that 1:54:01.400 --> 1:54:01.680 was it. 1:54:02.200 --> 1:54:02.400 Yeah. 1:54:02.680 --> 1:54:07.639 Yeah, So to just that his ability to see passworal 1:54:07.760 --> 1:54:09.559 just because that's the way it always is. That means 1:54:09.600 --> 1:54:11.400 the way it is. No, it's like, if I want 1:54:11.400 --> 1:54:12.920 to change it, I'll change it, and I'll change as 1:54:12.960 --> 1:54:16.240 many times as I want. It's like, it's incredible, blew 1:54:16.280 --> 1:54:18.000 my mind. Loved it. 1:54:18.600 --> 1:54:25.400 Wow to me hearing hearing the Yesus record, and you know, 1:54:25.400 --> 1:54:28.000 I admit that I'd consume most of my music now 1:54:28.120 --> 1:54:32.800 via my iPhone and my computer, not in the same 1:54:32.840 --> 1:54:34.760 way that I would have, you know, twenty years ago, 1:54:34.840 --> 1:54:37.760 like put it in the stereoptics and yeah, that sort 1:54:37.800 --> 1:54:41.200 of thing. So first I was, I was the mix 1:54:41.320 --> 1:54:45.240 was just really harsh to me. And then once I 1:54:45.280 --> 1:54:50.000 heard it in Madison Square Garden with no drums, I mean, 1:54:50.080 --> 1:54:52.560 the thing was like, drums is almost non existent on 1:54:53.680 --> 1:54:58.440 this record. And then I realized that, oh wow, this 1:54:58.520 --> 1:55:01.320 album was made for stadiums and datum is only when 1:55:01.360 --> 1:55:05.240 you guys are working in the studio are you blasting 1:55:05.440 --> 1:55:09.120 the music at the highest levels possible? Like is he 1:55:09.360 --> 1:55:12.320 violating the don't kill your ears in the studio thing, 1:55:12.520 --> 1:55:15.160 or because I was taught like when you're in the studio, 1:55:15.200 --> 1:55:18.080 you're supposed to have soft volumes, so that way you 1:55:18.120 --> 1:55:21.480 don't kill your ears when you're mixing. But I know, 1:55:21.560 --> 1:55:25.920 like rappers, not to peg him as quote rappers, but 1:55:26.520 --> 1:55:28.120 I know that we you know, want to hear that 1:55:28.160 --> 1:55:31.240 shit loud and you know, hit the OX button now 1:55:31.440 --> 1:55:32.320 like that sort of thing. 1:55:32.480 --> 1:55:38.440 But uh, we listen. We listen at realistic levels. So 1:55:38.480 --> 1:55:41.560 in other words, if the thing we're making is meant 1:55:41.600 --> 1:55:45.320 to be heard loud, we listen to it loud. And 1:55:45.840 --> 1:55:48.600 we don't have giant speakers. We just use regular you know, 1:55:49.040 --> 1:55:51.480 like the monitors that would sit on the desk. We 1:55:51.480 --> 1:55:57.280 don't use big giant monitors. Okay, Kanye uses some some 1:55:57.360 --> 1:56:00.680 big ones with with that are much louder than the 1:56:00.680 --> 1:56:03.240 ones that we have in the studio that I always 1:56:03.240 --> 1:56:05.360 request it to be turned down because too much for me. 1:56:06.200 --> 1:56:10.240 I see you're tenure for a while, you were president 1:56:10.280 --> 1:56:14.040 of Columbia records. Why did you decide to take a 1:56:14.080 --> 1:56:18.400 desk job and why, I mean, how how was the 1:56:18.480 --> 1:56:22.600 experience for that that that tenure as president of Columbia. 1:56:22.840 --> 1:56:25.440 Uh, it was not a desk job, which is why 1:56:25.640 --> 1:56:33.640 I entertained. And my thought was the thing that I 1:56:33.680 --> 1:56:36.480 do on records has has very little to do with music. 1:56:38.320 --> 1:56:43.000 It's like my style of production. It would it would 1:56:43.000 --> 1:56:46.440 work regardless of whether it was music. It's like a 1:56:46.440 --> 1:56:50.800 way to look at things. It's a recontextualization of what 1:56:50.840 --> 1:56:56.640 we're working on and solving problems. I happened to do 1:56:56.680 --> 1:56:59.840 it mostly in music because that's just how it ended 1:56:59.920 --> 1:57:04.480 up upright, But the idea was to apply the same 1:57:04.720 --> 1:57:07.520 like what would it be like to produce a record company? 1:57:08.560 --> 1:57:09.120 Wow? 1:57:10.000 --> 1:57:14.800 And there were other people to do the desk work, 1:57:15.600 --> 1:57:19.880 and this was to be more of a helping curate 1:57:19.960 --> 1:57:24.000 the best artists, helping the artists make the best records 1:57:24.000 --> 1:57:26.640 that they can. Basically the same thing that I do, 1:57:26.840 --> 1:57:30.560 except on a bigger scale. And at the time we 1:57:30.760 --> 1:57:34.360 by the time right till the end there, Columbia Records 1:57:34.400 --> 1:57:39.000 went from sort of a not great roster to maybe 1:57:39.080 --> 1:57:42.040 the best roster in the business at that moment in time. 1:57:42.960 --> 1:57:48.000 The corporate politics of it were not something that suited 1:57:48.160 --> 1:57:55.680 who I am, and I didn't engage. So basically it'd 1:57:55.720 --> 1:57:58.800 be like if you're running for a off for office 1:57:59.560 --> 1:58:03.800 and you're fighting, You're in a debate with someone who's 1:58:03.800 --> 1:58:07.640 screaming at you and lying and cursing. I'm not doing that. 1:58:08.240 --> 1:58:13.520 So ultimately the situation worked in a way where it 1:58:14.080 --> 1:58:17.800 wasn't really good. It could have been great, and it 1:58:17.880 --> 1:58:22.400 creatively was great, but had the politics not come into it, 1:58:23.160 --> 1:58:24.600 I think would still be doing it. 1:58:24.600 --> 1:58:28.840 And will you ever establish a label? Well, I don't 1:58:28.880 --> 1:58:31.720 know there's a need to establish a label in twenty twenty. 1:58:31.800 --> 1:58:37.360 Well whatever the twenty twenty version of starting a deaf 1:58:37.440 --> 1:58:42.120 Jam or a Death American or Colombia, will you ever 1:58:42.280 --> 1:58:45.280 dive in that pool again? Are you fine with the 1:58:45.400 --> 1:58:46.600 zone that you're in right now? 1:58:47.400 --> 1:58:49.240 If there are any acts that I want to work 1:58:49.280 --> 1:58:51.160 with which are few and far between, that I want 1:58:51.200 --> 1:58:54.800 to sign, then I have a relationship with Universal where 1:58:54.800 --> 1:58:57.520 I can sign an act and it'll be on American 1:58:57.640 --> 1:59:00.360 and it'll come out and I don't have to have 1:59:00.360 --> 1:59:04.360 a staff. It's like they do the record company part 1:59:04.840 --> 1:59:07.680 and I could be the creative partner, and that feels 1:59:07.720 --> 1:59:10.840 about right. I mean, if there was a reason to 1:59:11.120 --> 1:59:16.120 reinvent the label or help them get better, I'd be 1:59:16.240 --> 1:59:19.840 open to discussing. It's like I like making I like 1:59:20.800 --> 1:59:23.480 the challenge of making something good, whatever it is, like 1:59:23.560 --> 1:59:25.200 figuring out how do we make this better? 1:59:26.160 --> 1:59:28.000 I always wanted to ask you about sir mix a 1:59:28.000 --> 1:59:33.640 Lot Man, what led you, buddy? Yeah, shout my buddy 1:59:33.720 --> 1:59:35.200 Dan Charnis who. 1:59:36.040 --> 1:59:38.800 Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. 1:59:36.920 --> 1:59:38.400 Yeah yeah. 1:59:38.440 --> 1:59:40.120 And he brought up a real We had him on 1:59:40.160 --> 1:59:41.880 the show like when we first started, like a couple 1:59:41.880 --> 1:59:44.040 of years back, and he brought up a really interesting 1:59:44.080 --> 1:59:46.560 thing I never really noticed about you of like, he 1:59:46.960 --> 1:59:49.320 noticed you kind of tend to go for kind of 1:59:49.440 --> 1:59:52.360 nasally EMCs like ad Rod Mix a Lot, you know 1:59:52.360 --> 1:59:54.240 what I mean, They have that kind of similar tone. 1:59:54.920 --> 1:59:56.840 So I was scurious to know, like, what how did 1:59:56.840 --> 1:59:58.320 you find out about Mix a Lot and what led 1:59:58.360 --> 1:59:59.800 to you sign to him? 2:00:00.200 --> 2:00:00.360 Uh? 2:00:00.640 --> 2:00:02.240 Loved the record Posse on Broadway? 2:00:02.920 --> 2:00:07.680 Yes, yes, well it was your record. No, well, no 2:00:07.880 --> 2:00:12.400 that I know this. This is all I'm saying. 2:00:12.880 --> 2:00:15.320 And I'm so glad you brought this up, Fante, How 2:00:15.320 --> 2:00:19.040 did you I never as a Philadelphian, I feel guilty 2:00:19.080 --> 2:00:23.760 for not mentioning what your relationship to PSK was And 2:00:23.840 --> 2:00:27.880 by the transit of Vaxiom, how did you feel about 2:00:28.360 --> 2:00:32.720 the way the entire West Coast sort of ate up 2:00:33.680 --> 2:00:36.640 that particular style because that was with Sir mix a 2:00:36.640 --> 2:00:39.400 lot that was especially with the first n w A record. 2:00:40.360 --> 2:00:41.720 Every song was. 2:00:46.360 --> 2:00:50.960 Like it was practically the West Coast, Like, were you 2:00:51.440 --> 2:00:56.320 at all aware of the blueprint that license to ill 2:00:56.480 --> 2:00:57.880 gave to the entire coast? 2:00:58.760 --> 2:01:02.160 Not really, I think, probably too close to to see. 2:01:02.200 --> 2:01:05.200 I also, you know, I come to realize later that 2:01:05.400 --> 2:01:08.240 Brass Monkey, like there was no such thing as Miami 2:01:08.280 --> 2:01:11.240 Base before Brass Monkey. So it's like it it led 2:01:11.240 --> 2:01:14.120 to a lot of different It had different tentacles that 2:01:14.160 --> 2:01:16.760 inspired people in different ways, No, no. 2:01:16.640 --> 2:01:17.720 Doubt, man. 2:01:17.840 --> 2:01:20.080 So it mixed a lot. How you like pasta on Broadway? 2:01:20.120 --> 2:01:21.320 And then how'd you go about it? 2:01:21.360 --> 2:01:22.600 And I just reached out to him and said, hey, 2:01:22.640 --> 2:01:24.280 if there's ever an opportunity to work together, I would 2:01:24.280 --> 2:01:26.400 love to do it, and then ended up working out. 2:01:26.400 --> 2:01:27.760 He's like, well, I'm on my own label. I don't 2:01:27.760 --> 2:01:30.520 really want to do that now. But and then eventually 2:01:30.520 --> 2:01:32.120 he came around, He's like, Yep, I think I'm ready 2:01:32.120 --> 2:01:36.560 to do this. Let's do this by Baby American? Was 2:01:36.560 --> 2:01:38.000 that on American? Yes? 2:01:38.320 --> 2:01:40.440 Oh okay, that was on That was on a mac 2:01:40.520 --> 2:01:42.640 Daddy album. Okay, and I and. 2:01:42.560 --> 2:01:45.960 I can't remember. I've heard mix a lot say that 2:01:46.040 --> 2:01:49.720 I changed the tempo of it drastically in a way 2:01:49.760 --> 2:01:52.800 that he loves, but like that I heard it differently 2:01:52.880 --> 2:01:54.760 than he heard it. I don't really remember that, but 2:01:54.760 --> 2:01:55.879 that I've heard him say. 2:01:55.720 --> 2:01:57.960 That, you're saying that you physically slowed it down. 2:01:58.840 --> 2:02:01.040 I think I sped it up. They sped it up, 2:02:01.880 --> 2:02:04.040 but I'm not sure. I honestly I don't remember it 2:02:04.080 --> 2:02:06.880 at all. He would, he would know better than I. 2:02:06.880 --> 2:02:07.480 I was gonna say. 2:02:07.480 --> 2:02:10.160 Just back on your American stage, there was a record 2:02:10.280 --> 2:02:13.000 you signed that was. It really took me by surprise 2:02:13.040 --> 2:02:15.400 that you signed them, because it was unlike anything that 2:02:15.440 --> 2:02:17.360 you would ever sign or work with before. 2:02:17.880 --> 2:02:20.240 Uh, the record the nots were ultimate. I don't know 2:02:20.280 --> 2:02:23.000 if you remember American. 2:02:23.360 --> 2:02:26.400 Yeah, that was. That was a Dan Charnas signing. That 2:02:26.480 --> 2:02:26.640 was a. 2:02:29.320 --> 2:02:34.760 Ship and I forgot yep. Of course Bad Lad too. 2:02:34.920 --> 2:02:36.360 Is that dance as well? 2:02:36.920 --> 2:02:37.320 I think so? 2:02:38.120 --> 2:02:40.480 Damn yes, Okay, I totally forgot about this too. 2:02:41.240 --> 2:02:42.960 So with your A and RS, you just pretty much 2:02:43.040 --> 2:02:45.200 let them kind of do them. Just like if y'all 2:02:45.320 --> 2:02:47.400 like it, y'all believe in it, I'll fuck with it, Like, 2:02:47.480 --> 2:02:48.640 what was your role. 2:02:48.520 --> 2:02:49.000 In it was? 2:02:49.200 --> 2:02:52.120 It was a combination. It's like if they were really passionate, 2:02:52.240 --> 2:02:53.760 either I had to like it too. Or if they 2:02:53.800 --> 2:02:56.800 were really passionate, it's like this is the one. The 2:02:56.800 --> 2:02:59.520 whole idea of having more A and R people was 2:02:59.560 --> 2:03:01.840 not just find stuff for me. It was like if 2:03:01.840 --> 2:03:05.360 someone really was in love with something, then it was 2:03:05.400 --> 2:03:07.520 exciting to see what could happen. And it worked out 2:03:07.600 --> 2:03:09.720 in the case of the if you like those records 2:03:09.720 --> 2:03:11.640 that Dan signed, and if you liked the Black Crows 2:03:11.680 --> 2:03:13.680 that George signed, then it worked. 2:03:13.800 --> 2:03:16.560 I got one more music question before I ask you 2:03:16.600 --> 2:03:21.720 my last question, because we could be twelve hours working. Well, 2:03:21.760 --> 2:03:24.960 I know that you produced, and I'm a big fan 2:03:25.040 --> 2:03:27.720 of the Strokes. I know that you worked on the 2:03:27.760 --> 2:03:31.680 New Abnormal. First of all, did that title come up 2:03:32.040 --> 2:03:37.440 in very last minute? No, in relation to where we 2:03:37.480 --> 2:03:42.440 are now, because that sort of a apropos title did not. 2:03:42.760 --> 2:03:47.520 It just it was a title that Julian came up 2:03:47.560 --> 2:03:53.040 with the pre pre virus, and it's again just sort 2:03:53.080 --> 2:03:58.080 of the universe conspiring to make the art right. 2:03:59.440 --> 2:04:03.200 I'm assuming that they recorded out in Hawaii with with you. 2:04:03.320 --> 2:04:07.600 We recorded in Malibu, Okay, which I think is kind 2:04:07.600 --> 2:04:11.400 of different than all the studios that they previously recorded 2:04:11.440 --> 2:04:15.000 their music in. So how hard was it to get 2:04:15.080 --> 2:04:20.200 the well oiled machine of what the Strokes represented, especially 2:04:21.200 --> 2:04:22.640 in the early arts. 2:04:22.680 --> 2:04:24.760 And I know there was so much pressure on them to. 2:04:24.760 --> 2:04:29.200 Be the next big thing in quotes like how much 2:04:29.240 --> 2:04:32.160 of that was on their minds making this record because 2:04:32.160 --> 2:04:34.960 I can only assume that they took a ten year 2:04:35.080 --> 2:04:39.160 hiatus because of the pressure of living up to something 2:04:39.200 --> 2:04:43.680 that they couldn't sort of jump over, a hurdle that 2:04:43.720 --> 2:04:45.000 they couldn't match or whatever. 2:04:45.440 --> 2:04:49.600 Well, I think that the first record they put out 2:04:49.960 --> 2:04:53.960 was there considered their like breakthrough. That was the one, 2:04:54.160 --> 2:04:56.680 that's the one that sort of lit everything up. And yeah, 2:04:56.680 --> 2:05:00.760 the second album, the second album seems like it didn't 2:05:01.360 --> 2:05:04.920 change the world, but continued that and then since then 2:05:04.960 --> 2:05:10.800 it's been more hit and miss. So I don't think 2:05:10.840 --> 2:05:13.080 they felt a tremendous I don't I didn't get the 2:05:13.120 --> 2:05:16.240 sense that they felt a tremendous amount of pressure. I 2:05:16.280 --> 2:05:19.480 think they felt like, let's make another album because that's 2:05:19.520 --> 2:05:21.440 what we do, we haven't done it in a while, 2:05:21.520 --> 2:05:25.080 and hoping it would be good, you know, it's another 2:05:25.160 --> 2:05:27.000 like the Chili Peppers. They had asked me to produce 2:05:27.560 --> 2:05:32.480 an album eight or ten years ago, and they sent 2:05:32.520 --> 2:05:35.360 me demos and I listened to demos and I just 2:05:35.480 --> 2:05:40.560 I couldn't hear. I couldn't imagine how this, like, how 2:05:40.560 --> 2:05:43.560 to make something that interesting with what they sent like 2:05:43.600 --> 2:05:45.760 it didn't. It was just not a good starting point. 2:05:46.600 --> 2:05:50.440 And if that's a no from you, is does that 2:05:50.480 --> 2:05:53.160 filter to them that oh shit, this might be bad. 2:05:54.120 --> 2:05:54.560 I don't know. 2:05:54.720 --> 2:05:57.120 I just I just said I don't think this is 2:05:57.200 --> 2:05:58.880 right for me. I don't I don't see how to 2:05:58.880 --> 2:06:02.320 do this. And then on this album they sent me 2:06:02.400 --> 2:06:09.080 demos and these were probably the worst quality demos I've 2:06:09.120 --> 2:06:12.920 ever gotten from any artist, in that one track might 2:06:13.000 --> 2:06:16.360 be a thirty second voice note on the phone, like real, 2:06:18.120 --> 2:06:25.920 very very basic, like thumbnail sketches, and I listened to 2:06:25.960 --> 2:06:28.880 that these and it's like, Oh, this is going to 2:06:28.920 --> 2:06:30.920 be great. We got to make this. It's like I 2:06:31.400 --> 2:06:36.160 could feel what was there was inspiring. It's like you 2:06:36.200 --> 2:06:38.280 could listen to a twenty second clip and go, oh, 2:06:38.680 --> 2:06:40.880 if there was a song that sounded like this twenty 2:06:40.920 --> 2:06:44.200 second clip, I'd listen to that all day. Let's make that. 2:06:45.160 --> 2:06:47.920 So is that the beginning of working with you, Like 2:06:48.200 --> 2:06:51.520 one has to send the roughest sketch of a song 2:06:51.680 --> 2:06:54.920 before you can see the light to see how you 2:06:54.960 --> 2:06:59.120 can develop it. Or does everyone do the Kanye thing 2:06:59.120 --> 2:07:01.600 where it's damn near complete it and then you just 2:07:02.720 --> 2:07:04.680 you can add the finishing touches to it. 2:07:05.200 --> 2:07:06.600 There's no rule. There's no rule. 2:07:06.840 --> 2:07:09.640 It's like, have you ever built an album from the 2:07:09.640 --> 2:07:12.600 ground up? Like okay, songwriting. 2:07:13.840 --> 2:07:16.440 Less songwriting sessions, but like with the Chili Peppers, I 2:07:16.480 --> 2:07:20.640 would come to rehearsals pretty early on. We would probably 2:07:20.680 --> 2:07:23.680 go through they might they might have written one hundred 2:07:23.720 --> 2:07:26.240 songs for every album we did, and we would talk 2:07:26.280 --> 2:07:29.200 about him and narrow him down, and what was it 2:07:29.200 --> 2:07:33.720 about under the Bridge that attracted you? The way that 2:07:33.760 --> 2:07:36.960 it happened was just based on the lyric. It was 2:07:37.000 --> 2:07:41.200 a lyric that I found in Anthony's book of poetry. 2:07:42.080 --> 2:07:44.360 And I asked him what song is this and he said, 2:07:44.400 --> 2:07:46.440 it's not really chili pepper song. That's more of a 2:07:47.040 --> 2:07:50.120 like personal thing, more of a poem. And I said, well, 2:07:50.200 --> 2:07:51.720 how would you sing it if you were to sing it? 2:07:51.880 --> 2:07:54.200 And he sang it for me. He's like He's said, 2:07:54.400 --> 2:07:56.120 it's like it's a ballad, it's not. It's not a 2:07:56.240 --> 2:08:00.960 Chili Peppers thing, and and he sang it to me 2:08:01.600 --> 2:08:04.960 and I say, it's really beautiful. And people like the 2:08:05.040 --> 2:08:09.600 Chili Peppers not necessarily because you're a funk band with 2:08:09.720 --> 2:08:13.440 rap lyrics. People like the Chili Peppers because they like 2:08:13.600 --> 2:08:17.600 the music you four guys make. And if this is 2:08:17.600 --> 2:08:21.840 an example of something good that you make, I think 2:08:22.080 --> 2:08:25.800 I think people will accept that. It's like, that's you 2:08:25.840 --> 2:08:28.320 don't have to put such a limitation on what the 2:08:28.360 --> 2:08:30.640 band is. It's like, it's about the band, is about 2:08:30.640 --> 2:08:33.000 the people in it. What's so great about the Beatles? 2:08:33.040 --> 2:08:35.520 If you listen to their early records, in their late records, 2:08:35.560 --> 2:08:37.480 they don't sound like the same band. And that's just 2:08:37.520 --> 2:08:39.280 in seven years that arc. 2:08:40.320 --> 2:08:43.840 Is there an act that you never with the exception 2:08:43.960 --> 2:08:46.560 of Bill Withers and I know the stories of you 2:08:46.680 --> 2:08:49.920 pursuing them, Is there an act that you would have 2:08:50.280 --> 2:08:52.480 liked to have worked with it you never got a 2:08:52.600 --> 2:08:56.440 chance to live alive or not alive, or disbanded or 2:08:56.440 --> 2:08:57.200 not disbanded. 2:08:57.360 --> 2:09:00.960 Well, obviously Beatles or led Zeppelin or any of the like. 2:09:01.080 --> 2:09:04.160 Has McCartney ever approached you about producing a record or 2:09:05.600 --> 2:09:07.320 fish Bone or you. 2:09:07.280 --> 2:09:11.000 Know, yeah, I met with McCartney and talked about making 2:09:11.040 --> 2:09:14.000 something has not yet happened, but you never know. 2:09:15.120 --> 2:09:17.640 I would be interested to see how that works. 2:09:18.000 --> 2:09:20.440 What made you settle down into the podcast world and 2:09:20.560 --> 2:09:23.200 was it the allure of doing it with Malcolm Gladwell 2:09:23.280 --> 2:09:25.920 and hitlerm or like why do you? 2:09:25.960 --> 2:09:29.080 Why is that now another part of your Wait? 2:09:29.080 --> 2:09:31.640 Can I give a small preface for this question? So 2:09:32.440 --> 2:09:34.040 I did your very first podcast? 2:09:34.040 --> 2:09:34.440 Correct? 2:09:34.920 --> 2:09:35.720 Was that something like that? 2:09:36.040 --> 2:09:37.480 One of the one of the. 2:09:37.400 --> 2:09:38.680 Preson is like the pilot? 2:09:38.720 --> 2:09:40.600 But yeah, maria'rer in there, Okay. 2:09:40.760 --> 2:09:43.520 I literally had no idea what I was walking into 2:09:43.680 --> 2:09:47.600 because you know, sometimes my business being just a little 2:09:47.600 --> 2:09:52.160 bit yanky. So I was I was on my way 2:09:52.200 --> 2:09:55.680 to the studio thinking I was doing a QLs episode 2:09:57.240 --> 2:10:00.880 because it was the same studio wherever we interviewed Heather 2:10:01.000 --> 2:10:05.160 Hunter or that jazz studio that Steve recommended. I got 2:10:05.200 --> 2:10:06.840 there and I was like, oh shit, I'm here to 2:10:06.840 --> 2:10:10.520 do a QLs episode with Malcolm Gladwell. And then I 2:10:10.600 --> 2:10:13.640 was like, wait, where's where's Laiah and everyone at? And 2:10:13.680 --> 2:10:16.360 then I was like wait, Rick Rubin you're on this 2:10:16.440 --> 2:10:18.040 episode two and I. 2:10:18.120 --> 2:10:19.600 Just winged it in. 2:10:19.640 --> 2:10:24.040 About twenty minutes into it, I realized, oh, I'm here. 2:10:24.200 --> 2:10:26.280 I got to read my emails better. I'm here to 2:10:26.360 --> 2:10:27.360 do That's. 2:10:27.240 --> 2:10:28.920 The interview you got to prepare for right in me 2:10:28.920 --> 2:10:31.360 here like be an interviewed by at least those two. 2:10:31.880 --> 2:10:33.360 Sometimes I fly out the seat. 2:10:33.600 --> 2:10:37.720 You know, we're just freestyling a podcast show and having 2:10:37.760 --> 2:10:41.920 no clue what I'm there for and just getting lucky. 2:10:42.040 --> 2:10:45.520 So when I did their episode, I literally went to 2:10:45.600 --> 2:10:50.200 that building thinking it's a Malcolm Gladwell episode A Quest 2:10:50.240 --> 2:10:53.680 Loove Supreme. And then when I saw Rick Rubin's face 2:10:53.720 --> 2:10:56.080 on the television thing because he did it by monitor, 2:10:56.640 --> 2:10:57.640 I was hella confused. 2:10:57.640 --> 2:11:00.120 I was like, wait a minute, what am I doing here? 2:11:00.680 --> 2:11:02.200 I had to run in the other room and like 2:11:02.240 --> 2:11:05.800 call it, wait, what am I doing? You're doing someone's fun. 2:11:05.880 --> 2:11:08.200 I didn't do this, so, but. 2:11:08.280 --> 2:11:10.880 Yeah, talk about why you even chose to put that. 2:11:10.800 --> 2:11:16.760 Into I was friendly with Malcolm and I loved his podcast, 2:11:16.880 --> 2:11:20.040 Revisionist History, and he told me he had an idea 2:11:20.040 --> 2:11:23.760 to do a new podcast around music and asked if 2:11:23.800 --> 2:11:26.720 I would be interested in being involved. And I thought 2:11:27.480 --> 2:11:30.240 I'm a fan of his work. Be fun. It's like, dude, 2:11:30.280 --> 2:11:34.720 something with Malcolm I wouldn't have normally. I probably wouldn't 2:11:34.720 --> 2:11:37.440 have chosen to do a music podcast on my own 2:11:37.880 --> 2:11:39.680 at that time, just because I feel like talk about 2:11:39.760 --> 2:11:41.760 music most of the time in my normal life. It's 2:11:41.800 --> 2:11:45.080 almost like the podcast would be to talk about something 2:11:45.120 --> 2:11:47.120 else that I'm interested in. I don't even know what 2:11:47.160 --> 2:11:49.080 that would be like. There are a lot of things. 2:11:49.280 --> 2:11:51.280 It's hard to say. I never thought about it, but 2:11:51.360 --> 2:11:55.080 this was more his invitation made it seem like, Oh, 2:11:55.120 --> 2:11:57.040 that'd be fun. I love what he does, so maybe 2:11:57.080 --> 2:11:59.600 I'll learn something about podcasting doing something with him. 2:12:00.320 --> 2:12:02.080 Yeah, it seems like y'all don't ever have to worry 2:12:02.120 --> 2:12:04.640 about guests. So I was I was kind of cramming, 2:12:04.680 --> 2:12:05.480 and I was listening. 2:12:05.200 --> 2:12:06.720 To Andre episode. 2:12:06.840 --> 2:12:11.640 I was just about to say, like, yeah, that was 2:12:11.640 --> 2:12:12.520 like say, especially. 2:12:12.240 --> 2:12:13.840 When y'all talked about like beyond moments. 2:12:13.840 --> 2:12:15.640 We were had made a note about that and the 2:12:15.680 --> 2:12:18.600 moments that are just beyond, and you were talking about 2:12:18.600 --> 2:12:21.000 how just these moments in your life where it's like 2:12:21.040 --> 2:12:23.000 if you did not do one thing, these other things 2:12:23.000 --> 2:12:24.879 wouldn't happened, Like if you would have stayed in Chicago. 2:12:25.640 --> 2:12:27.680 Chicago, right, bab we were listening together. 2:12:30.480 --> 2:12:33.520 Yeah, we we have a lot of mutual friends in common. 2:12:33.760 --> 2:12:40.720 So just hearing of your evolution, your spiritual evolution, your 2:12:40.800 --> 2:12:45.680 physical evolution. You know, you've been definitely kind of a 2:12:46.720 --> 2:12:49.720 life goal mission for me at least where you are 2:12:49.800 --> 2:12:52.680 with your life and everything, like what's your daily routine 2:12:52.960 --> 2:12:54.720 and I know like surfings played. 2:12:54.440 --> 2:12:56.680 A part of it and all that stuff. 2:12:57.240 --> 2:13:00.000 In Kawai. Now, I've been doing a ninety minute walk 2:13:00.200 --> 2:13:02.880 every morning on the beach barefoot, a lot of sun 2:13:03.320 --> 2:13:07.240 and listening to podcasts that ninety minutes. That's where I 2:13:07.240 --> 2:13:10.520 listen to you. If I listen to one of your pieces, 2:13:10.560 --> 2:13:13.000 it'll be while I'm walking on the beach. And that's 2:13:13.200 --> 2:13:15.240 the very first thing every day, and I get that 2:13:15.320 --> 2:13:18.920 out of the way and then I can start focusing 2:13:18.960 --> 2:13:20.480 on work or whatever else there is to do for 2:13:20.520 --> 2:13:22.920 the rest of the day. But I feel like having 2:13:22.960 --> 2:13:25.840 that right when I wake up, because if I wait, 2:13:26.480 --> 2:13:29.760 if I wait an hour, I won't do it. 2:13:30.560 --> 2:13:31.800 Facts, that's me. 2:13:33.320 --> 2:13:36.280 And if I wait an hour, not only will I 2:13:36.320 --> 2:13:37.880 won't do it, I'll eat. 2:13:38.680 --> 2:13:40.720 You do something, Yeah, you do some funds I'll. 2:13:40.600 --> 2:13:43.000 Definitely eat because if I'm sitting around and I'm hungry, 2:13:43.720 --> 2:13:45.760 if I'm walking for ninety minutes, I'm not thinking about 2:13:45.800 --> 2:13:48.320 food because I'm involved in the podcast or book on 2:13:48.400 --> 2:13:53.520 tape and I'm walking and enjoying myself and my mind 2:13:53.600 --> 2:13:57.480 is completely occupied because I'm very you know, I listen 2:13:57.520 --> 2:13:59.360 to things that I'm interested in and learn stuff, and 2:13:59.400 --> 2:14:01.760 it's great. I look forward to it. Every day. I 2:14:01.760 --> 2:14:03.600 feel like I run out of time, you know, Like 2:14:03.880 --> 2:14:06.240 I listened in the car on the way I listen 2:14:06.440 --> 2:14:08.600 on the beach walk, I listen on the way back, 2:14:09.000 --> 2:14:11.160 and then usually I have stuff to do to start 2:14:11.200 --> 2:14:13.600 my day and it's like put it. But I have 2:14:13.720 --> 2:14:15.440 so much more research to do, I have so many 2:14:15.440 --> 2:14:17.480 more things to listen to, and I run out of time. 2:14:18.760 --> 2:14:21.080 Yeah. What has quarantine been like for you? Rick? 2:14:21.200 --> 2:14:24.720 What is what changes quarantine like? Just kind of how 2:14:24.720 --> 2:14:26.560 we're in quarantine now and kind of be in lockdown. 2:14:26.880 --> 2:14:28.000 What has that been like for you? 2:14:28.560 --> 2:14:30.760 It hasn't changed so much other than the fact that 2:14:30.760 --> 2:14:33.120 we're in Kawhi because normally we wouldn't normally be in 2:14:33.200 --> 2:14:36.920 Kawhi now, we'd be in Malibu. But because Malibu is 2:14:36.960 --> 2:14:40.920 locked down. Kauhi is lockdown too. We were here in 2:14:41.360 --> 2:14:44.440 over the holidays and we were going back to start. 2:14:44.480 --> 2:14:46.840 I was going back to start new Avitt Brothers album 2:14:47.120 --> 2:14:50.240 first week of March, and then I got a call 2:14:50.920 --> 2:14:55.800 days before saying, hey, stuff's getting sketchy. We're thinking maybe 2:14:55.800 --> 2:14:58.200 we should just stay home. And it's like, perfect, I'm 2:14:58.240 --> 2:15:01.880 staying here. You guys stay home. Let's you know, let's 2:15:02.160 --> 2:15:05.040 wait a minute and figure out what's happening. And that 2:15:05.160 --> 2:15:06.080 leads us to today. 2:15:07.200 --> 2:15:09.520 How severe is it in Hawaii right now? 2:15:09.640 --> 2:15:12.240 As far as there are no cases on the island, 2:15:12.240 --> 2:15:17.000 which is unbelievable, there's no There are seven islands of 2:15:17.080 --> 2:15:22.360 Kawaii there, you know, half hour flight apart, but this yeah, 2:15:22.400 --> 2:15:23.280 this one has none. 2:15:23.480 --> 2:15:25.520 And Kawaii has like a lower population. 2:15:26.160 --> 2:15:30.400 Yes, it's very few people and they're far apart, and 2:15:30.440 --> 2:15:33.080 it's a great place to be on quarantine. Again. We 2:15:33.440 --> 2:15:35.400 if we weren't here, I don't think we would have 2:15:35.440 --> 2:15:37.440 come here for it, But the fact that we were 2:15:37.440 --> 2:15:41.600 here and the opportunity arose seemed like a good choice. 2:15:41.680 --> 2:15:44.000 The universe again was smiling on us. 2:15:45.720 --> 2:15:49.040 These two are those those dogs I saw you once 2:15:49.080 --> 2:15:52.280 with the dogs with the mop. 2:15:52.560 --> 2:15:56.000 Heads I have won. His name is Champa. I had 2:15:56.040 --> 2:16:00.560 two before him named The current dog's name is Yellow. 2:16:01.320 --> 2:16:05.200 The two prior where Champa and Monday. Chump and Monday 2:16:05.240 --> 2:16:11.640 passed away at eighteen nineteen years old. And now Champa 2:16:11.760 --> 2:16:18.680 is Monday's brother, brother's son. I think so in the family, 2:16:20.040 --> 2:16:21.320 and he's probably twelve now. 2:16:21.400 --> 2:16:23.240 It wasn't a pack of him, I could have sworn. 2:16:23.320 --> 2:16:26.800 I seen like a family of them. I had you before, 2:16:26.800 --> 2:16:27.440 and now I have one. 2:16:27.920 --> 2:16:30.320 I saw one and then the other one. The other 2:16:30.360 --> 2:16:33.240 would follow wherever one would go, Okay, I remember that. 2:16:34.000 --> 2:16:34.200 Yeah. 2:16:34.240 --> 2:16:36.440 I want to know, man, do you still when you're 2:16:36.480 --> 2:16:41.240 working out your ideas? Are you like still making tracks 2:16:41.400 --> 2:16:42.760 or does it start on an instrument? 2:16:42.760 --> 2:16:44.800 How do you flesh out the ideas that you may have. 2:16:45.600 --> 2:16:47.600 It really depends. I don't. I don't do it for 2:16:47.640 --> 2:16:49.800 the sake of doing it. So it's more like if 2:16:49.800 --> 2:16:53.240 there's a reason to make something, if there's a from 2:16:53.280 --> 2:16:55.240 working on a project that needs a piece of music 2:16:55.280 --> 2:16:57.400 that needs to start with me, which I'd prefer not 2:16:57.560 --> 2:17:01.520 to do. I like. I like elaborating. I like hearing 2:17:01.560 --> 2:17:04.920 something and finding pieces that I could make into the 2:17:04.959 --> 2:17:07.160 thing that I want to make as opposed to starting 2:17:07.200 --> 2:17:09.240 from scratch. I have to start from scratch. I can, 2:17:09.720 --> 2:17:13.120 but it's not my favorite thing to do. And if 2:17:13.160 --> 2:17:15.400 it is, I'll either make a beat on a drum machine, 2:17:15.560 --> 2:17:18.480 or I'll start with a sample and then build up 2:17:18.480 --> 2:17:22.000 a track around the sample and then either keep the 2:17:22.040 --> 2:17:24.240 sample in, remove the sample, mess with the sample. 2:17:25.120 --> 2:17:29.240 Yeah, are you using like Ableton or like what software? 2:17:29.360 --> 2:17:31.959 We usually do everything in pro Tools, although it's still 2:17:32.000 --> 2:17:34.200 you know, just still out of you know, I don't 2:17:34.200 --> 2:17:35.680 know any better and I don't know how to run 2:17:35.720 --> 2:17:38.000 pro Tools. I don't really I'm not a technical person 2:17:38.040 --> 2:17:40.600 at all. I just can say I like it, like this, 2:17:40.720 --> 2:17:42.160 let's change this beat. 2:17:42.480 --> 2:17:44.840 When you take on a project, do you stay on 2:17:44.879 --> 2:17:48.160 that project or are you able to hop from project 2:17:48.240 --> 2:17:52.040 to project? Like Okay, I'm gonna work with Chili Peppers 2:17:52.120 --> 2:17:54.760 at the studio on Monday and then run to do 2:17:54.800 --> 2:17:58.640 the Dixie Chicks next week over there and blah blah blah, 2:17:58.680 --> 2:18:03.359 like or are you stay? I do you? 2:18:03.360 --> 2:18:03.920 You hire me? 2:18:04.000 --> 2:18:07.360 And we If it's over three months, then we're in trouble, 2:18:07.440 --> 2:18:09.720 Like how do you schedule. 2:18:10.200 --> 2:18:14.880 The first one? Because it's I don't think it's possible 2:18:15.360 --> 2:18:18.560 to say, we're going to put three months on hold, 2:18:18.560 --> 2:18:19.959 and in that three months, we're going to make the 2:18:19.959 --> 2:18:23.240 best album the world has ever heard. I don't. I don't. 2:18:23.400 --> 2:18:25.800 I don't believe in that. I don't believe it's possible. 2:18:26.120 --> 2:18:28.280 Maybe some people can do it, I don't know. I 2:18:28.280 --> 2:18:31.480 don't know how that works. So every project has its 2:18:31.520 --> 2:18:35.440 own rhythm, and as I said, sometimes it happens very quickly. 2:18:35.840 --> 2:18:39.800 Sometimes it takes a long time, and I don't I 2:18:40.040 --> 2:18:45.840 try not to do it as much as possible based 2:18:45.879 --> 2:18:48.640 on my schedule. It's always about the artist schedule. And 2:18:48.640 --> 2:18:50.680 when I say the artist schedule, I don't mean the 2:18:50.760 --> 2:18:53.800 artist schedule of when they want to go on vacation. 2:18:54.000 --> 2:18:59.600 I mean the artist schedule of when the idea is hot, 2:19:00.120 --> 2:19:04.879 you know, when the songs are ready. We have to 2:19:04.920 --> 2:19:08.840 find a way that, when the moment is right to 2:19:08.920 --> 2:19:12.200 make it, that we can make it. And I can 2:19:12.240 --> 2:19:15.360 think of very few times in my life where it 2:19:15.400 --> 2:19:17.440 hasn't worked out where at a time I might have 2:19:17.520 --> 2:19:20.879 been making five albums at the same time. Back in 2:19:20.920 --> 2:19:22.600 the days when I would have to go from studio 2:19:22.640 --> 2:19:28.080 to studio, it might be we're doing overdubs with this 2:19:28.280 --> 2:19:31.600 artist and I'm working on just vocals with another artist 2:19:31.720 --> 2:19:34.960 on a different album at at the same time. Maybe 2:19:35.000 --> 2:19:38.640 I do noon to noon to three with one artist 2:19:38.680 --> 2:19:42.200 and three to six with another artist that way, or 2:19:42.280 --> 2:19:44.600 maybe I'm doing pre production with one and working on 2:19:44.680 --> 2:19:47.320 mixing with another, And it could be as many as 2:19:47.680 --> 2:19:49.560 four or five or six going on same time. It's 2:19:49.600 --> 2:19:52.320 not unusual because some of them could go on for years, 2:19:52.400 --> 2:19:58.720 you know, do you I work with engineers and each project. 2:19:59.040 --> 2:20:01.960 Usually I try to have an engineer dedicated to that 2:20:02.040 --> 2:20:07.640 particular project, like a tag team partner. So and also 2:20:08.320 --> 2:20:10.040 I like to work like in the old days, I 2:20:10.120 --> 2:20:12.120 used to work all night, drive home as the sun 2:20:12.200 --> 2:20:15.280 was coming up. Now I'm on an early schedule, so 2:20:15.400 --> 2:20:17.200 I like to have the sessions start at like noon 2:20:17.320 --> 2:20:20.680 or one, and I like to be done by six. 2:20:21.120 --> 2:20:23.320 Now that doesn't mean like on the Strokes album which 2:20:24.320 --> 2:20:27.240 we just you know, made recently, just came out three 2:20:27.320 --> 2:20:32.480 weeks ago or something, I would come from noon to six, 2:20:34.040 --> 2:20:38.440 and then I would leave a list, a to do list, 2:20:39.000 --> 2:20:41.400 so the band could go on working as late as 2:20:41.440 --> 2:20:43.400 midnight if they you know, they band could work as 2:20:43.400 --> 2:20:45.800 long as they want and have a list of things 2:20:45.840 --> 2:20:48.039 to do. In addition to anything that they would want 2:20:48.040 --> 2:20:50.600 to try on their own, and then the next morning 2:20:50.640 --> 2:20:52.400 I would come in, we would review what happened the 2:20:52.480 --> 2:20:54.680 night before, and then we would start on the day's work. 2:20:55.760 --> 2:20:59.400 I gotta try it, yeah, And I've also by making 2:20:59.440 --> 2:21:02.400 a lot of our albums, I've come to realize when 2:21:02.760 --> 2:21:08.440 my voice is particularly helpful in the process, and sometimes 2:21:08.440 --> 2:21:10.800 it's in pre production, it means a lot. In the 2:21:10.840 --> 2:21:13.720 basic track, it means a lot. Getting the vocals, it 2:21:13.760 --> 2:21:18.840 means a lot. But many of the other times, during overdubs, 2:21:18.920 --> 2:21:23.240 during guitar solos, I usually if I trust the artist, 2:21:23.320 --> 2:21:24.840 I let them do it, and then I might come in, 2:21:24.879 --> 2:21:27.640 Like with Tom Morello, if we're doing on either a 2:21:27.760 --> 2:21:31.119 rage record or an Audio Slave record, He'll do solos 2:21:31.160 --> 2:21:33.320 on everything, and then I might come and say, you know, 2:21:33.400 --> 2:21:35.480 those are all great, and this one's not as good. 2:21:35.720 --> 2:21:39.800 We gotta and then maybe redo this, or if there's 2:21:39.840 --> 2:21:41.920 ever ones where it's like, let's work on this one 2:21:41.959 --> 2:21:44.680 together for some reason, if he can't crack the code 2:21:45.120 --> 2:21:46.959 on his own, then we'll do it together. But I 2:21:47.000 --> 2:21:50.320 don't like to hold an artist's hand. I don't like 2:21:50.400 --> 2:21:56.880 to ultimately, if the artist feels like they've done everything themselves. 2:21:57.640 --> 2:22:01.440 That's the best feeling for me. I don't want I 2:22:01.440 --> 2:22:03.480 don't want it to I don't want the process to 2:22:03.480 --> 2:22:04.000 be about me. 2:22:06.160 --> 2:22:10.240 Life lessons one and only life lessons. 2:22:10.000 --> 2:22:12.400 Rick Rubin, don't make it about you and walk the 2:22:12.480 --> 2:22:15.160 first thing in the mornings. 2:22:15.720 --> 2:22:17.080 I don't want the process to be. 2:22:17.120 --> 2:22:18.360 Ugly for you. 2:22:19.680 --> 2:22:23.200 See that's the one thing because you know who downstairs 2:22:23.200 --> 2:22:26.240 always says, See, Rick Rubin walks early in the morning, 2:22:26.440 --> 2:22:27.280 and you don't do it. 2:22:27.879 --> 2:22:29.680 So now I'm gonna have to wake my answer up 2:22:29.680 --> 2:22:30.640 at six in the morning. 2:22:32.400 --> 2:22:35.039 You wake up, your first thing is just doing because 2:22:35.160 --> 2:22:38.120 I'll create a bunch of excuses. I have to get 2:22:38.200 --> 2:22:40.240 up at six and walk. All right, thank you, Rick. 2:22:40.400 --> 2:22:44.120 I will now reach my goal of two twenty pounds. 2:22:44.720 --> 2:22:47.000 I'm gonna walk because Rick said, Because Rick said so. 2:22:47.800 --> 2:22:51.200 Anyway, Rick, dude, this is this has been what like 2:22:51.400 --> 2:22:52.400 four years in the making. 2:22:52.560 --> 2:22:56.119 Yes, exactly, Shout out today, Shout out today. 2:22:56.959 --> 2:23:03.760 I have a suggestion quest, which is every day for 2:23:03.800 --> 2:23:08.560 the next let's make it three weeks. When you go 2:23:08.640 --> 2:23:11.080 on your walk, just send me a message at the 2:23:11.200 --> 2:23:14.760 end saying I walked this along today, just a little 2:23:14.840 --> 2:23:16.800 check in like, Hey, I did this today. 2:23:16.800 --> 2:23:22.160 Accountability, I will do so. Yes, just about accountability. 2:23:22.640 --> 2:23:26.680 I'm about accountability, and I'm about integrity, life coach. Yes, 2:23:27.200 --> 2:23:30.920 about integrity. Two twenty is right around the bin. I'm 2:23:30.959 --> 2:23:31.600 ready for this shit. 2:23:31.720 --> 2:23:33.400 Thank you, and send a group text to all of 2:23:33.440 --> 2:23:35.240 us and we'll go Yeah, we finished ours too. 2:23:35.280 --> 2:23:38.840 You're going to be a sleep all right. So on 2:23:38.959 --> 2:23:41.240 behalf of uh Rick Rubin. 2:23:41.879 --> 2:23:50.960 Yes on, behalf of Sugar Steve On, pay bill by 2:23:51.840 --> 2:23:57.080 Vroon Tigelow and be great incomparable Rick Rubin. Four years 2:23:57.080 --> 2:23:59.440 We've been dying for this. My name is Qus Loved. 2:23:59.480 --> 2:24:01.400 This is plus Love Supreme. We will see you on 2:24:01.440 --> 2:24:02.199 the next around. 2:24:02.600 --> 2:24:20.480 Thank you Must Love Supreme. 2:24:20.520 --> 2:24:22.279 It's a production iHeartRadio. 2:24:25.320 --> 2:24:28.640 For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 2:24:28.840 --> 2:24:31.879 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.