WEBVTT - Democracy, Fractals, and Sci-fi (adrienne maree brown) 0:00:02.920 --> 0:00:06.160 Welcome to how to citizen with baritone day, I'm bar 0:00:06.320 --> 0:00:09.960 tune day. What's up? If you've been a listener? Is 0:00:10.000 --> 0:00:13.000 good to have you back? If you knew, Welcome to 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:17.480 the journey. This is season four, Who Who Now? In 0:00:17.520 --> 0:00:21.480 season three, we focus on technology and how our relationship 0:00:21.520 --> 0:00:24.119 with it could help us citizen. In season two, we 0:00:24.160 --> 0:00:28.159 took a similar topical approach, but with the economy. In 0:00:28.200 --> 0:00:31.800 our first season, we sampled a buffet of awesome people 0:00:32.080 --> 0:00:36.159 who embody the idea of citizen as a verb and 0:00:36.320 --> 0:00:41.280 just a quick refresher. We've identified four key pillars upholding 0:00:41.440 --> 0:00:45.320 what it means to citizen. One to citizen is to 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:50.000 participate assume we have a role to play beyond outsourcing 0:00:50.000 --> 0:00:54.480 that participation via voting. Number two to citizen is to 0:00:54.520 --> 0:00:59.000 invest in relationships with ourselves, with our communities, and with 0:00:59.080 --> 0:01:02.880 our planet. We are interconnected and there was no way 0:01:02.880 --> 0:01:07.520 to citizen alone. Number three two citizen is to understand 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:10.640 power and the many ways we have to generate and 0:01:10.720 --> 0:01:14.320 express it, from spending money and gathering in groups to 0:01:14.440 --> 0:01:18.039 spreading ideas and giving our attention to something. And finally, 0:01:18.160 --> 0:01:22.520 number four, to citizen is to value our collective self interest, 0:01:22.640 --> 0:01:26.800 not just our individual self interests as we practice all 0:01:26.840 --> 0:01:31.360 the above. In this season, we're exploring how we create 0:01:31.400 --> 0:01:35.800 a culture of democracy, and we'll be highlighting ideas that 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:40.080 inspire us to think differently and more deeply about this word. 0:01:40.600 --> 0:01:44.880 This word we toss around so easily and frequently but 0:01:45.080 --> 0:01:55.440 rarely defined. Democracy at its root is literally people power. 0:01:56.120 --> 0:02:01.120 It's people wielding our power to govern ourselves, to manage 0:02:01.120 --> 0:02:05.520 our resources, and to benefit our communities. And as you've 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:09.560 probably heard by now, we are in a crisis of democracy. 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:14.280 Democracy faced its most serious crisis and debt. Democracy in 0:02:14.840 --> 0:02:18.680 democracy is facing a crisis of confidence. So he's American 0:02:18.720 --> 0:02:25.680 democracy in crisis. I think a lot of what we 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:29.239 end up arguing over and fretting about with this democracy 0:02:29.240 --> 0:02:33.320 crisis is the mechanics. How does the constitution determine who 0:02:33.400 --> 0:02:36.079 the president is? What's the makeup of the court system? 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:39.160 Where are the boarders drawn between voting districts? Hey? Do 0:02:39.240 --> 0:02:42.480 we even count votes anymore? And don't get me wrong, 0:02:42.840 --> 0:02:46.760 the mechanics and the structures are important, but we need 0:02:46.800 --> 0:02:49.880 to go deeper. We need to dig into the soil 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:53.360 out of which we grow the democracy we experience. I 0:02:53.440 --> 0:02:58.000 think of that soil as culture, the collective norms, behaviors, 0:02:58.000 --> 0:03:01.920 and attitudes that establish the conditions for the ways we 0:03:02.080 --> 0:03:06.720 practice democracy. To me, a culture of democracy is one 0:03:06.760 --> 0:03:11.960 that encourages, incentivizes, and prepares us to practice democracy and 0:03:12.000 --> 0:03:18.000 to engage in people power in a healthy way. A 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:22.560 healthy culture of democracy helps us citizen, and to help 0:03:22.680 --> 0:03:25.960 us launch this season's journey, we have writer, activist, and 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:33.000 movement facilitator Adrian Marie Brown. I first came across Adrian's 0:03:33.000 --> 0:03:36.160 work nearly twenty years ago, back in two thousand four, 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:38.880 through this group she co founded called the League of 0:03:39.000 --> 0:03:42.280 Piste Off Voters. We were both part of a wave 0:03:42.360 --> 0:03:44.920 of activists trying to prevent George W. Bush from winning 0:03:44.920 --> 0:03:48.200 a second term as president. And I just love their swagger. 0:03:48.680 --> 0:03:51.360 I mean their logo was the statue of Liberty with 0:03:51.440 --> 0:03:55.240 a baseball bat. I'm like, yes, that's how you get free. 0:03:56.280 --> 0:04:00.520 Years later, I started hearing Adrian Marie Brown's name all 0:04:00.560 --> 0:04:03.600 over the place when her book, Emerging Strategy came out. 0:04:04.160 --> 0:04:08.200 In that book and her work since, Adrian focuses on 0:04:08.280 --> 0:04:11.880 that second pillar too, citizen is to invest in relationships 0:04:11.920 --> 0:04:15.960 with ourselves, our community, and our planet. She sees that 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:20.960 relational work as essential to any political work. In this conversation, 0:04:21.600 --> 0:04:25.280 Adrian helps us see democracy as a personal practice, and 0:04:25.320 --> 0:04:28.159 she and I get personal in ways I didn't see coming. 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:43.760 After the break, Adrian Marie Brown talks practicing democracy at home. Writer, facilitator, activists, 0:04:43.760 --> 0:04:47.440 science fiction super nerd Adrian Marie Brown has been organizing 0:04:47.440 --> 0:04:50.560 with various movements for justice since two thousand and one. 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:53.080 We're talking the League of Young a k A. Piste 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:57.760 Off Voters, the Ruckis Society. Writer of seven books that 0:04:57.880 --> 0:05:01.480 I Know of fiction and non fiction, including of Course, 0:05:01.600 --> 0:05:07.599 Emergent Strategy, Pleasure Activism, and her latest Fables and Spells. Currently, 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:10.640 Adrian is a writer in residence at the Emergent Strategy 0:05:10.680 --> 0:05:16.000 Ideation Institute, which she established. Also, she co hosts two podcasts, 0:05:16.040 --> 0:05:19.560 Octavia's Parables and How to Survive the End of the World. 0:05:19.960 --> 0:05:23.159 We've got a live virtual audience here with us, so 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:28.120 without further Ado, welcome to our podcast. Adrian Marie Brown, 0:05:28.400 --> 0:05:31.560 how do you do? I'm so good, It's so exciting 0:05:31.600 --> 0:05:35.279 to be here. UM, I feel like you hunted me down. 0:05:37.200 --> 0:05:39.359 I've never had so many people like I don't know 0:05:39.360 --> 0:05:41.080 how you did this, but you reached out and I 0:05:41.120 --> 0:05:43.320 had so many people like Barrow Tune Day wants to 0:05:43.360 --> 0:05:46.000 talk to you. And I was like, well, if there's 0:05:46.000 --> 0:05:47.640 a Virgo man out there trying to talk to me, 0:05:47.680 --> 0:05:49.800 then I need to answer that call and figure it out. 0:05:49.839 --> 0:05:52.800 So what's up? How are you? What's up? Virgos? This? 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:56.080 I'm great and our birthdays are very close together. Yes, 0:05:56.240 --> 0:05:59.839 you're a September I am a September baby. We're the best. 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:02.680 Thank you. I've been telling my wife, I've been telling 0:06:02.680 --> 0:06:05.559 anybody who can't tell them all, especially the significant others. 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:10.719 They need to understand, they need to recognize our grid. Um. 0:06:10.760 --> 0:06:14.560 It is just really really an honor and a beauty 0:06:14.839 --> 0:06:17.560 to exchange this time with you. So thank you. I 0:06:17.760 --> 0:06:21.160 feel the same. Thank you. All Right. You often use 0:06:21.279 --> 0:06:26.599 this term right relationship in your work. Can you provide 0:06:26.600 --> 0:06:29.160 an overview of that? Well, how do you define right 0:06:29.279 --> 0:06:34.240 relationship as distinct from something else? Yeah? I heard that 0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:37.719 term when I was working with indigenous communities for the 0:06:37.720 --> 0:06:41.560 first time, like really embedding myself and trying to understand 0:06:42.839 --> 0:06:46.080 really in the biggest picture way, what went wrong here 0:06:46.200 --> 0:06:48.960 on this land, Like what has happened and how do 0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:53.719 we get ourselves back into a relationship that is not transactional, 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:59.680 not abusive, not oppressive, not even you know, now, I 0:06:59.680 --> 0:07:02.200 think distracted, Like I think a lot of our relationships 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:06.800 are ones where we're barely there. We're always passing in 0:07:06.839 --> 0:07:08.520 the night, passing in the night, passing in the night. 0:07:08.760 --> 0:07:12.160 Everyone's so busy with living lives that they're not even 0:07:12.160 --> 0:07:17.920 satisfied by So this idea was taught to me that 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:21.040 it was like, there's actually an order of things. There's 0:07:21.080 --> 0:07:23.680 a right relationship between humans and the earth that we 0:07:23.760 --> 0:07:28.200 live in, and humans amongst ourselves and humans with all 0:07:28.240 --> 0:07:31.040 the other creatures that are here, and my sci fi 0:07:31.120 --> 0:07:35.120 throws and probably humans and other life forms. But there 0:07:35.200 --> 0:07:36.960 is a way that we can be in relationship that 0:07:37.080 --> 0:07:39.560 is not you know, just peace and blessings all the time. 0:07:39.600 --> 0:07:42.840 But there's a way that they can have equanimity, that 0:07:42.920 --> 0:07:46.920 it can have justice in it. And I got really intrigued, 0:07:47.160 --> 0:07:49.800 like it instantly, it resonated throughout my system that I 0:07:49.880 --> 0:07:53.400 was like, Yes, at that time, in movement work, everything 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:56.560 was very siloed. So you were either working on environment, 0:07:56.720 --> 0:07:58.960 or you're working on racial justice, or you were working 0:07:58.960 --> 0:08:01.800 on electoral or aizing, or you know, everything was very 0:08:01.840 --> 0:08:04.400 separated out, and so it's very easy to be like 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:08.000 to see all the problems as these distinct, separate things. 0:08:08.720 --> 0:08:11.400 And right relationship is this idea that there's a wholeness 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:13.640 to it all and there's a way that we can 0:08:13.720 --> 0:08:17.560 drop into a whole world perspective and see ourselves as 0:08:17.600 --> 0:08:19.920 a part of that world. And Yeah, that sent me 0:08:19.960 --> 0:08:23.320 down a whole other life path. I want to rewind 0:08:23.680 --> 0:08:28.520 into that path, and I think part memory, yes, oh, 0:08:28.720 --> 0:08:30.640 we're gonna have some tunes. I don't know if we 0:08:30.640 --> 0:08:32.600 can license these things, but we can not. Capello. It 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:38.920 so exactly your journey into getting into right relationship with democracy. 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:43.079 I'm old enough Adrian to remember the League of piste 0:08:43.080 --> 0:08:47.440 off voters. I had y'all stickers. I'm pretty sure it 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:51.400 was a statue of liberty with a baseball bath. There 0:08:51.440 --> 0:08:56.200 were some there was some emotions through that attempt to 0:08:56.360 --> 0:08:59.560 stop George W. Bush from gatting a second turn. And 0:08:59.600 --> 0:09:02.840 so can you take us back to this effort that 0:09:02.880 --> 0:09:06.920 you co led to get President George W. Bush out 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:10.600 of office? What motivated you to do that work back then? 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:13.720 And where you just trying to get Bush out or 0:09:13.720 --> 0:09:16.600 were you trying to accomplish something more or different than that. 0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:18.800 You know, I thought of myself as a very young, 0:09:18.800 --> 0:09:20.800 feisty revolutionary, Like I was like this, we've got to 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:24.880 figure this out. And I had been doing harm reduction 0:09:24.920 --> 0:09:27.679 work with active drug users and sex workers through the 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:31.480 Harm Reduction Coalition, and George W. Bush had cut the 0:09:31.520 --> 0:09:33.960 funding for all that work because he was only funding 0:09:34.000 --> 0:09:37.880 absence related work. Right, you had to be cold Turkey, 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:40.160 no sex, no drugs, or you weren't going to get 0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:43.880 any support. So I was upset. And then the build 0:09:43.920 --> 0:09:46.800 up was happening. You know, you know it's nine eleven, right, 0:09:46.880 --> 0:09:50.400 So nine eleven happened, and then we're having this reaction 0:09:50.640 --> 0:09:52.320 from the US that was like we've got to go 0:09:52.360 --> 0:09:55.240 to warm, We're going to bomb Iraq, We're gonna bomb Afghanistan. 0:09:55.960 --> 0:09:58.480 I got moved into direct action through that because I 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:01.920 was like, we've got to stop this, like we're misunderstanding 0:10:02.400 --> 0:10:05.520 what this moment is or misunderstanding our role as a nation, 0:10:06.160 --> 0:10:13.600 and he's foolishly leading us into a vengeful, fatal situation. 0:10:13.679 --> 0:10:16.280 We've got to stop him. And so it was about him, 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:18.640 but it wasn't just about any one issue. It was 0:10:18.720 --> 0:10:21.160 like I can see how he's impacting my work. I 0:10:21.160 --> 0:10:24.760 can see how he's impacting all of us. And his worldview, 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:29.240 which was this, you know, white male, conservative worldview, I 0:10:29.320 --> 0:10:31.320 was like, this is dangerous for all of us. So 0:10:32.280 --> 0:10:34.520 I didn't really know anything about electoral politics. I always 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:36.320 say this, like, coming into that, I was just like, 0:10:36.360 --> 0:10:39.800 I know about organizing. I'm learning about how we move people. 0:10:40.400 --> 0:10:43.520 And at the time it felt very innovative right to 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:45.440 be like, we need to bring everything we know about 0:10:45.520 --> 0:10:49.280 organizing into how we do electoral work. And I still 0:10:49.280 --> 0:10:52.520 think that I don't think we've mastered that bridge, you know. 0:10:52.920 --> 0:10:55.160 I do think that I came to understand the placement 0:10:55.240 --> 0:10:58.360 of these different strategies as part of all larger way 0:10:58.400 --> 0:11:01.120 of doing the work. But at that time, it was 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:04.120 actually really invigorating to go. You know. I ended up 0:11:04.120 --> 0:11:06.640 book touring that book because we had like something like 0:11:06.720 --> 0:11:09.920 twelve or thirteen authors and hijinks and sued a lot 0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:12.680 of people. I didn't plan to book tour. I thought 0:11:12.679 --> 0:11:15.120 I was just gonna be editing, But then something happened 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:17.360 when I got up in front of people, like a 0:11:17.480 --> 0:11:20.760 spark would come through me. And that's where I learned 0:11:20.800 --> 0:11:22.120 that I could get up in front of people and 0:11:22.120 --> 0:11:26.040 that I could channel something of the moment into a 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:30.160 room of people. But yeah, we were lit up about 0:11:30.160 --> 0:11:33.280 this idea that electoral organizing should be part of a 0:11:33.360 --> 0:11:37.800 larger strategy for how we build community and how we 0:11:37.880 --> 0:11:40.400 change policy. And we just had this moment of like 0:11:40.480 --> 0:11:42.200 none of us even know how to, Like we're trying 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:44.120 to we're trying to change the world, but none of 0:11:44.160 --> 0:11:46.880 us understand how policy gets developed. None of us understand 0:11:46.880 --> 0:11:50.440 how our electoral system even works. None of us understand 0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:54.720 where the loopholes are, and so we're getting you know, redline, 0:11:54.720 --> 0:11:59.160 we're getting misdirected, we're getting disenfranchised from a system that 0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:02.559 has actually lot of power over our daily lives. So 0:12:02.880 --> 0:12:04.719 I felt really hopeful. I thought we were going to win. 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:09.720 We didn't, as everyone knows, but yeah, I felt like 0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:13.280 I learned a ton about organizing there, because you know, 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:17.319 the way election organizing works is cyclical, and so it's 0:12:17.320 --> 0:12:19.760 the cycles where you're like, we're gonna go do our 0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:23.080 thing and oh now, community, hey, hey, community, we didn't 0:12:23.120 --> 0:12:25.439 forget about you on the back. We still need to 0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:27.920 support and then forget about it, and so it's like, 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:30.440 how do we make this a sustainable process, like something 0:12:30.480 --> 0:12:32.840 where the people who are elected see themselves as every 0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:36.800 day a part of a larger movement of change. It's 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:43.600 holistic politics in some way, holistic power contention. You, um, 0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:49.200 just thank you for Emergence Strategy book. We have it 0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:52.040 in our house. My wife quotes you like all the time, 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:56.360 and the word emergent is just like a part of 0:12:56.400 --> 0:13:00.360 our relationship. I'm glad. Yeah, it's very cool. Yeah, And 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:04.120 I want to you know, on your journey to publishing 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:07.400 that book, you were publicly chronicling what I would describe 0:13:07.400 --> 0:13:10.760 as like the evolution of your your thoughts and practices 0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:15.320 around this right relationship concept, around emergence itself, and in 0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:18.880 you wrote the following on your blog. The invitation of 0:13:18.880 --> 0:13:24.240 Emergent Strategy is to come together in community, build authentic relationships, 0:13:24.640 --> 0:13:28.280 and see what emerges from the conversations, connections, visions, and needs. 0:13:28.760 --> 0:13:31.280 I don't see this as creating something from scratch, but 0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:34.520 rather innovating from need. So I want to share a 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:37.280 brief thing and then ask you a thing. You know, 0:13:37.320 --> 0:13:39.839 our podcast is how to Citizen and developing it, we 0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:44.280 developed core principles. One of them is that to citizens 0:13:44.320 --> 0:13:47.400 to invest in relationships with yourself, with others and the 0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:50.480 planet around you. And so I just I feel very 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:53.960 SYMPATICO right now we're swimming in similar waters and honestly 0:13:54.000 --> 0:13:59.360 probably influenced by you. But this overlapping key that relationships 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:03.760 come first. They're like an input into a development, not 0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:08.720 an afterthought or just a money raising content. How did 0:14:08.760 --> 0:14:12.800 you arrive at this inside of prioritizing these authentic connections 0:14:13.360 --> 0:14:16.920 And is there a line from your stop bush work 0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:21.400 into a deeper respect and prioritization of community and relationship 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:24.480 as the first step. Yeah, for sure. You know, I 0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:27.920 think that loss taught me a lot because we were 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:31.480 surrounded by people who were supposedly the most strategic people. 0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:33.640 We were getting trainings and we're getting you know, we 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:35.960 were going through so much work to try to understand 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:39.200 how this all work. And and I was like, something's 0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:43.000 not working, and there's a what at the time I 0:14:43.040 --> 0:14:45.040 was really calling manipulation. It felt like there's a sense 0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:49.040 of manipulation inside of this, that we're only engaging in 0:14:49.160 --> 0:14:52.320 relationship to the degree that we can manipulate people to 0:14:52.400 --> 0:14:55.880 do what we've already decided they should do, which is 0:14:55.920 --> 0:14:58.200 to vote for this person, whether or not that's of 0:14:58.280 --> 0:15:00.680 most service to them, whether or not we understand what 0:15:00.720 --> 0:15:03.520 their needs are. And again the cyclical nature of it meant, 0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:06.000 you know, by the time I wrote the book, you know, 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:08.840 it was like ten years of different kinds of organizing 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:11.000 and direct action, all this stuff had passed, and I 0:15:11.080 --> 0:15:13.640 was like, do we even know how to do democracy? 0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:16.640 And I started asking this question to people. I would 0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:17.840 be in a room full of people and be like, 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:20.080 how many of you practice democracy? And I would have 0:15:20.120 --> 0:15:22.200 everyone like, raise your hands if you think you practice 0:15:22.240 --> 0:15:24.960 democracy like in your actual life. And I would be like, 0:15:25.040 --> 0:15:27.000 and people, sometimes, so what do you mean by that? 0:15:27.120 --> 0:15:30.000 You know? Do you sit down together and talk about 0:15:30.040 --> 0:15:33.720 how you're spending the resources of your home and your community. 0:15:33.800 --> 0:15:35.880 Do you talk about how you're agreeing to keep each 0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:38.560 other safe? Do you talk about how you're agreeing to 0:15:38.680 --> 0:15:41.800 share time and who has decision making power? And do 0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:44.280 you make those decisions together? And all this right, So 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:46.240 there would always be like these confident people would raise 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:47.280 their hands. I'd be like, do you do this in 0:15:47.320 --> 0:15:49.760 your household? Right? And I was like, are the kids involved? 0:15:49.800 --> 0:15:52.520 Hands come down? Right? Are your parents involved as anyone 0:15:52.560 --> 0:15:54.480 else involved? Right? And that's just in the household. So 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:56.360 I was like, okay, great for the people who still 0:15:56.400 --> 0:15:58.400 have your hands up, do you practice it in your neighborhood, 0:15:58.400 --> 0:16:01.120 like just on your block, And by practicing democracy like 0:16:01.160 --> 0:16:04.120 on your block, more hands come down. I almost never 0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:07.600 made it to community, right, that people in in whatever 0:16:07.640 --> 0:16:10.240 they think of as their community, they weren't practicing democracy. 0:16:10.560 --> 0:16:14.440 Most people in our organizations aren't practicing democracy. And so 0:16:14.640 --> 0:16:17.880 something about the fractal nature of that clicked for me, 0:16:18.000 --> 0:16:20.160 right because I was learning this concept of fractals that 0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:23.960 were each these small cells of something much larger than ourselves. 0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:25.840 So I'm like, we're trying to change was at the 0:16:25.960 --> 0:16:28.640 very top of the structure, the president. You know, we're 0:16:28.640 --> 0:16:30.600 just if we change that. But I'm like, but no 0:16:30.640 --> 0:16:34.280 one's actually practicing democracy. So even the people running for 0:16:34.400 --> 0:16:38.000 office are often people who have never actually practiced democracy 0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:41.360 in that way, right, and they're not practicing it intimately. 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:44.400 So I got kind of excited by that problem because 0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:48.400 I was like, well, that's something solvable, Like there's practices, 0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:53.040 all right. I'm like, I respect that there is a problem, 0:16:53.280 --> 0:16:56.320 and any problem is solvable. Yeah, Like once I was like, 0:16:56.680 --> 0:16:59.240 got it, Okay, so we need to figure out how 0:16:59.280 --> 0:17:02.320 to practice to myocracy, small D democracy. And I was 0:17:02.320 --> 0:17:05.640 definitely influenced by my mentor Grace Lee Bogs. I had 0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:08.000 moved to Detroit. I was learning from her, and that's 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:10.439 one of things she was often talking about, is we 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:12.639 need to get people back in the practice. Like she 0:17:12.640 --> 0:17:15.119 would say, democracy is a really beautiful thing if you 0:17:15.119 --> 0:17:18.040 actually practice it, but very few of us do. We 0:17:18.160 --> 0:17:21.600 opt out. We find ways to reinstate hierarchy, to move 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:26.960 around having to actually do democratic practice. So that piece 0:17:26.960 --> 0:17:30.240 around like, well, who am I in relationship with enough 0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:32.960 that I would want to practice democracy with them? Very few? 0:17:33.240 --> 0:17:35.400 You know, I have a very high standard for who 0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:37.159 I want to make decisions with, And that's actually not 0:17:37.200 --> 0:17:39.160 how the world is structure. You don't just get to decide. 0:17:39.760 --> 0:17:42.760 And if you were to boil down your definition of 0:17:42.840 --> 0:17:46.239 democracy with the practice of it, is it as you 0:17:46.280 --> 0:17:50.280 seem to imply just now, shared decision making, joint decision making? 0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:52.960 You just said, who am I in community that I 0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:56.320 don't want to practice democracy with? So how do you define? 0:17:56.359 --> 0:17:59.359 There's this group called Movement Generation who I adore, and 0:17:59.400 --> 0:18:03.200 they defy economy as the management of home, the management 0:18:03.200 --> 0:18:05.800 of the resources of home, which I really love because 0:18:05.800 --> 0:18:08.440 they're like, anytime we're talking about how we manage our 0:18:08.440 --> 0:18:12.560 shared resources of the earth, of our community, of our family, 0:18:13.359 --> 0:18:16.840 that's an economic conversation. And so to me, democracy is 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:19.480 in that vein right that I'm like, we're talking about 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:23.360 how do we make the decisions about our resources, including 0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:26.640 the resource of time, the resource of money, the resource 0:18:26.680 --> 0:18:29.200 of land, the resource of food, the resource of water, 0:18:29.359 --> 0:18:33.720 the resource of air, the resource of education, And fundamentally, 0:18:33.760 --> 0:18:35.840 I think that's what governance is about. You know, we're 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:37.600 living our lives, but at a certain point we have 0:18:37.640 --> 0:18:41.679 to say, there's finite resources in a finite lifetime. How 0:18:41.720 --> 0:18:43.600 are we going to make the decisions related to that? 0:18:43.920 --> 0:18:47.080 And for me, I don't enjoy debating for the sake 0:18:47.080 --> 0:18:50.960 of debate. I know some people do. I'm always like, Okay, 0:18:51.240 --> 0:18:53.680 what's the most logical, practical way that we can share 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:57.480 these resources that everyone can actually share them? And this, 0:18:58.040 --> 0:19:01.399 I'll say, braided into also the science fiction work and 0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:05.040 reading that I was doing at that time, because Octavia 0:19:05.080 --> 0:19:06.479 Butler said, you don't know who you're going to end 0:19:06.520 --> 0:19:09.680 up in the apocalypse with, and so that always felt 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:13.359 like this like oh am I going to be a 0:19:13.359 --> 0:19:15.439 good community with who am I going to have to 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:17.639 practice exactly? Right? So I was like, right now we 0:19:17.720 --> 0:19:19.919 have the privilege many of us are getting to choose 0:19:20.640 --> 0:19:22.480 who do I want to live with and who do 0:19:22.520 --> 0:19:24.040 I want to make decisions with and how do I 0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:28.639 want to do this? But actually, long term, we need 0:19:28.680 --> 0:19:31.440 to learn how to just do this whoever we land with. 0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:34.840 And that got me excited because I was like, Okay, 0:19:35.520 --> 0:19:37.760 what is the future I actually want and how can 0:19:37.800 --> 0:19:41.080 I start practicing a democratic way of being that moves 0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:45.080 me towards that the fractal thing and the democracy thing 0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:48.720 are so intertwined, And I think for me it's been 0:19:48.960 --> 0:19:52.600 a relief, honestly to hear someone describe the value of 0:19:52.640 --> 0:19:57.440 the small Yes, Like so much of our save democracy 0:19:57.560 --> 0:20:00.639 conversation is a lot of words and debate and not 0:20:00.720 --> 0:20:04.280 actually a lot of practice. It's inches column inches of 0:20:04.320 --> 0:20:07.479 thoughts and our beds and whatnot, but it evokes large 0:20:07.520 --> 0:20:13.679 scale structural reforms. And you're based question You're basic, not 0:20:13.760 --> 0:20:16.679 in the insult, but in the true, like elemental level 0:20:16.800 --> 0:20:19.840 question of how are we practicing democracy? And the communities 0:20:19.960 --> 0:20:22.240 were part of what communities are? We are part of first, 0:20:22.920 --> 0:20:26.399 how are we practicing? What are some of the small practices, 0:20:26.480 --> 0:20:30.960 the small activities that you think reverberate upward into the 0:20:31.040 --> 0:20:34.200 larger structure. Yeah, I mean one thing I always say 0:20:34.200 --> 0:20:37.919 to people because sometimes the binary come the people are 0:20:38.000 --> 0:20:41.080 large versus small, and like everything large is made up 0:20:41.080 --> 0:20:43.640 of small parts. We live in an atomic world, so 0:20:43.720 --> 0:20:46.359 every single thing that you can look at, from another 0:20:46.400 --> 0:20:50.080 person to a superstructure, to our governance, to a nation, 0:20:50.520 --> 0:20:53.199 everything is made up of smaller parts. So it's not 0:20:53.240 --> 0:20:55.880 an either or, it's saying, if I want to impact 0:20:55.920 --> 0:20:57.960 something large, I have to be able to tune into 0:20:58.080 --> 0:21:01.000 the smallest practice of that large thing right and then 0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:03.959 be able to judge it up right. And this has 0:21:04.000 --> 0:21:08.080 really guided a lot of what emerging strategy has focused on. Right. 0:21:08.359 --> 0:21:12.399 So conflict, being able to be in conflict with integrity. 0:21:12.880 --> 0:21:16.280 I call it generative conflict, which I learned from generative somatics. 0:21:16.280 --> 0:21:18.680 But this idea of like conflict, if we do it well, 0:21:18.760 --> 0:21:22.000 actually generates more possibilities for us. It really makes it 0:21:22.000 --> 0:21:24.639 clear that, oh, we can have differences of opinion and 0:21:24.680 --> 0:21:26.919 we can work through them and find a way for 0:21:27.119 --> 0:21:31.879 so generative conflict. Our nation is basically broken when it 0:21:31.920 --> 0:21:35.919 comes to this idea of generative conflict. Right now, conflict is, 0:21:36.560 --> 0:21:39.720 you know, dropping to the lowest common denominator, throwing insults 0:21:39.760 --> 0:21:42.400 at each other and seeing the person who you're arguing with, 0:21:42.800 --> 0:21:46.320 you're trying to dehumanize them. Actually, the democratic process of 0:21:46.320 --> 0:21:48.760 that generative conflict would be, how do I humanize you 0:21:49.119 --> 0:21:51.399 even if I totally disagree with you? How do I 0:21:51.440 --> 0:21:55.000 find the places where there's some potential alignment? And you know, 0:21:55.000 --> 0:21:56.760 the thing I always come back to is like, we 0:21:56.800 --> 0:21:59.439 only have this one planet, so we have to figure 0:21:59.440 --> 0:22:02.199 out how to get along enough to keep going on 0:22:02.240 --> 0:22:05.480 this planet. Right right, it's the ultimate resource. We're figuring 0:22:05.520 --> 0:22:08.959 out how to share exactly right. And as much as 0:22:09.000 --> 0:22:11.359 I pray every day, I'm like, aliens, you know, just 0:22:11.440 --> 0:22:13.119 help us. You don't even have to come rescue us, 0:22:13.160 --> 0:22:14.640 just let us know, like if you know a little 0:22:14.640 --> 0:22:17.080 bit more about how to do this. Um, but generative 0:22:17.080 --> 0:22:19.399 conflict feels like a really big one. And then actually 0:22:19.440 --> 0:22:22.720 being able to talk openly about power dynamics is another 0:22:22.720 --> 0:22:26.120 one that feels really important in most of our organizations. 0:22:26.119 --> 0:22:28.080 So a lot of my work during this time was 0:22:28.119 --> 0:22:31.760 facilitating organizations and I would come in, and what always 0:22:31.800 --> 0:22:34.200 surprised me was the people in power didn't seem to 0:22:34.240 --> 0:22:36.280 know they were in power, or they didn't seem to 0:22:36.280 --> 0:22:39.520 be um comfortable talking about how much power they had, 0:22:40.000 --> 0:22:42.680 and often they would even take a victim role. It's 0:22:42.760 --> 0:22:45.720 so hard being me trying to just do what I'm doing. 0:22:45.880 --> 0:22:48.480 And I know as I've ascended into more powerful positions 0:22:48.480 --> 0:22:50.480 how quickly this happen. Because you're like, no, it really 0:22:50.560 --> 0:22:53.720