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Speaker 1: Welcome to how to citizen with baritone day, I'm bar

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Speaker 1: tune day. What's up? If you've been a listener? Is

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Speaker 1: good to have you back? If you knew, Welcome to

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Speaker 1: the journey. This is season four, Who Who Now? In

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Speaker 1: season three, we focus on technology and how our relationship

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Speaker 1: with it could help us citizen. In season two, we

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Speaker 1: took a similar topical approach, but with the economy. In

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Speaker 1: our first season, we sampled a buffet of awesome people

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Speaker 1: who embody the idea of citizen as a verb and

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Speaker 1: just a quick refresher. We've identified four key pillars upholding

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Speaker 1: what it means to citizen. One to citizen is to

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Speaker 1: participate assume we have a role to play beyond outsourcing

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Speaker 1: that participation via voting. Number two to citizen is to

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Speaker 1: invest in relationships with ourselves, with our communities, and with

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Speaker 1: our planet. We are interconnected and there was no way

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Speaker 1: to citizen alone. Number three two citizen is to understand

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Speaker 1: power and the many ways we have to generate and

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Speaker 1: express it, from spending money and gathering in groups to

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Speaker 1: spreading ideas and giving our attention to something. And finally,

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Speaker 1: number four, to citizen is to value our collective self interest,

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Speaker 1: not just our individual self interests as we practice all

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Speaker 1: the above. In this season, we're exploring how we create

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Speaker 1: a culture of democracy, and we'll be highlighting ideas that

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Speaker 1: inspire us to think differently and more deeply about this word.

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Speaker 1: This word we toss around so easily and frequently but

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Speaker 1: rarely defined. Democracy at its root is literally people power.

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Speaker 1: It's people wielding our power to govern ourselves, to manage

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Speaker 1: our resources, and to benefit our communities. And as you've

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Speaker 1: probably heard by now, we are in a crisis of democracy.

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Speaker 1: Democracy faced its most serious crisis and debt. Democracy in

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Speaker 1: democracy is facing a crisis of confidence. So he's American

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Speaker 1: democracy in crisis. I think a lot of what we

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Speaker 1: end up arguing over and fretting about with this democracy

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Speaker 1: crisis is the mechanics. How does the constitution determine who

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Speaker 1: the president is? What's the makeup of the court system?

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Speaker 1: Where are the boarders drawn between voting districts? Hey? Do

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Speaker 1: we even count votes anymore? And don't get me wrong,

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Speaker 1: the mechanics and the structures are important, but we need

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Speaker 1: to go deeper. We need to dig into the soil

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Speaker 1: out of which we grow the democracy we experience. I

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Speaker 1: think of that soil as culture, the collective norms, behaviors,

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Speaker 1: and attitudes that establish the conditions for the ways we

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Speaker 1: practice democracy. To me, a culture of democracy is one

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Speaker 1: that encourages, incentivizes, and prepares us to practice democracy and

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Speaker 1: to engage in people power in a healthy way. A

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Speaker 1: healthy culture of democracy helps us citizen, and to help

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Speaker 1: us launch this season's journey, we have writer, activist, and

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Speaker 1: movement facilitator Adrian Marie Brown. I first came across Adrian's

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Speaker 1: work nearly twenty years ago, back in two thousand four,

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Speaker 1: through this group she co founded called the League of

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Speaker 1: Piste Off Voters. We were both part of a wave

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Speaker 1: of activists trying to prevent George W. Bush from winning

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Speaker 1: a second term as president. And I just love their swagger.

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Speaker 1: I mean their logo was the statue of Liberty with

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Speaker 1: a baseball bat. I'm like, yes, that's how you get free.

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Speaker 1: Years later, I started hearing Adrian Marie Brown's name all

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Speaker 1: over the place when her book, Emerging Strategy came out.

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Speaker 1: In that book and her work since, Adrian focuses on

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Speaker 1: that second pillar too, citizen is to invest in relationships

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Speaker 1: with ourselves, our community, and our planet. She sees that

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Speaker 1: relational work as essential to any political work. In this conversation,

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Speaker 1: Adrian helps us see democracy as a personal practice, and

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Speaker 1: she and I get personal in ways I didn't see coming.

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Speaker 1: After the break, Adrian Marie Brown talks practicing democracy at home. Writer, facilitator, activists,

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Speaker 1: science fiction super nerd Adrian Marie Brown has been organizing

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Speaker 1: with various movements for justice since two thousand and one.

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Speaker 1: We're talking the League of Young a k A. Piste

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Speaker 1: Off Voters, the Ruckis Society. Writer of seven books that

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Speaker 1: I Know of fiction and non fiction, including of Course,

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Speaker 1: Emergent Strategy, Pleasure Activism, and her latest Fables and Spells. Currently,

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Speaker 1: Adrian is a writer in residence at the Emergent Strategy

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Speaker 1: Ideation Institute, which she established. Also, she co hosts two podcasts,

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Speaker 1: Octavia's Parables and How to Survive the End of the World.

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Speaker 1: We've got a live virtual audience here with us, so

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Speaker 1: without further Ado, welcome to our podcast. Adrian Marie Brown,

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Speaker 1: how do you do? I'm so good, It's so exciting

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Speaker 1: to be here. UM, I feel like you hunted me down.

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Speaker 1: I've never had so many people like I don't know

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Speaker 1: how you did this, but you reached out and I

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Speaker 1: had so many people like Barrow Tune Day wants to

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Speaker 1: talk to you. And I was like, well, if there's

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Speaker 1: a Virgo man out there trying to talk to me,

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Speaker 1: then I need to answer that call and figure it out.

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Speaker 1: So what's up? How are you? What's up? Virgos? This?

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Speaker 1: I'm great and our birthdays are very close together. Yes,

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Speaker 1: you're a September I am a September baby. We're the best.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. I've been telling my wife, I've been telling

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Speaker 1: anybody who can't tell them all, especially the significant others.

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Speaker 1: They need to understand, they need to recognize our grid. Um.

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Speaker 1: It is just really really an honor and a beauty

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Speaker 1: to exchange this time with you. So thank you. I

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Speaker 1: feel the same. Thank you. All Right. You often use

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Speaker 1: this term right relationship in your work. Can you provide

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Speaker 1: an overview of that? Well, how do you define right

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Speaker 1: relationship as distinct from something else? Yeah? I heard that

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Speaker 1: term when I was working with indigenous communities for the

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Speaker 1: first time, like really embedding myself and trying to understand

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Speaker 1: really in the biggest picture way, what went wrong here

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Speaker 1: on this land, Like what has happened and how do

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Speaker 1: we get ourselves back into a relationship that is not transactional,

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Speaker 1: not abusive, not oppressive, not even you know, now, I

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Speaker 1: think distracted, Like I think a lot of our relationships

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Speaker 1: are ones where we're barely there. We're always passing in

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Speaker 1: the night, passing in the night, passing in the night.

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Speaker 1: Everyone's so busy with living lives that they're not even

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Speaker 1: satisfied by So this idea was taught to me that

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Speaker 1: it was like, there's actually an order of things. There's

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Speaker 1: a right relationship between humans and the earth that we

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Speaker 1: live in, and humans amongst ourselves and humans with all

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Speaker 1: the other creatures that are here, and my sci fi

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Speaker 1: throws and probably humans and other life forms. But there

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Speaker 1: is a way that we can be in relationship that

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Speaker 1: is not you know, just peace and blessings all the time.

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Speaker 1: But there's a way that they can have equanimity, that

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Speaker 1: it can have justice in it. And I got really intrigued,

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Speaker 1: like it instantly, it resonated throughout my system that I

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Speaker 1: was like, Yes, at that time, in movement work, everything

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Speaker 1: was very siloed. So you were either working on environment,

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Speaker 1: or you're working on racial justice, or you were working

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Speaker 1: on electoral or aizing, or you know, everything was very

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Speaker 1: separated out, and so it's very easy to be like

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Speaker 1: to see all the problems as these distinct, separate things.

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Speaker 1: And right relationship is this idea that there's a wholeness

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Speaker 1: to it all and there's a way that we can

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Speaker 1: drop into a whole world perspective and see ourselves as

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Speaker 1: a part of that world. And Yeah, that sent me

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Speaker 1: down a whole other life path. I want to rewind

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Speaker 1: into that path, and I think part memory, yes, oh,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna have some tunes. I don't know if we

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Speaker 1: can license these things, but we can not. Capello. It

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Speaker 1: so exactly your journey into getting into right relationship with democracy.

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Speaker 1: I'm old enough Adrian to remember the League of piste

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Speaker 1: off voters. I had y'all stickers. I'm pretty sure it

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Speaker 1: was a statue of liberty with a baseball bath. There

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Speaker 1: were some there was some emotions through that attempt to

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Speaker 1: stop George W. Bush from gatting a second turn. And

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Speaker 1: so can you take us back to this effort that

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Speaker 1: you co led to get President George W. Bush out

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Speaker 1: of office? What motivated you to do that work back then?

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Speaker 1: And where you just trying to get Bush out or

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Speaker 1: were you trying to accomplish something more or different than that.

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Speaker 1: You know, I thought of myself as a very young,

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Speaker 1: feisty revolutionary, Like I was like this, we've got to

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Speaker 1: figure this out. And I had been doing harm reduction

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Speaker 1: work with active drug users and sex workers through the

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Speaker 1: Harm Reduction Coalition, and George W. Bush had cut the

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Speaker 1: funding for all that work because he was only funding

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Speaker 1: absence related work. Right, you had to be cold Turkey,

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Speaker 1: no sex, no drugs, or you weren't going to get

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Speaker 1: any support. So I was upset. And then the build

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Speaker 1: up was happening. You know, you know it's nine eleven, right,

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Speaker 1: So nine eleven happened, and then we're having this reaction

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Speaker 1: from the US that was like we've got to go

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Speaker 1: to warm, We're going to bomb Iraq, We're gonna bomb Afghanistan.

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Speaker 1: I got moved into direct action through that because I

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Speaker 1: was like, we've got to stop this, like we're misunderstanding

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Speaker 1: what this moment is or misunderstanding our role as a nation,

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Speaker 1: and he's foolishly leading us into a vengeful, fatal situation.

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Speaker 1: We've got to stop him. And so it was about him,

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Speaker 1: but it wasn't just about any one issue. It was

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Speaker 1: like I can see how he's impacting my work. I

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Speaker 1: can see how he's impacting all of us. And his worldview,

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Speaker 1: which was this, you know, white male, conservative worldview, I

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Speaker 1: was like, this is dangerous for all of us. So

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Speaker 1: I didn't really know anything about electoral politics. I always

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Speaker 1: say this, like, coming into that, I was just like,

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Speaker 1: I know about organizing. I'm learning about how we move people.

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Speaker 1: And at the time it felt very innovative right to

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Speaker 1: be like, we need to bring everything we know about

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Speaker 1: organizing into how we do electoral work. And I still

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Speaker 1: think that I don't think we've mastered that bridge, you know.

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Speaker 1: I do think that I came to understand the placement

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Speaker 1: of these different strategies as part of all larger way

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Speaker 1: of doing the work. But at that time, it was

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Speaker 1: actually really invigorating to go. You know. I ended up

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Speaker 1: book touring that book because we had like something like

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Speaker 1: twelve or thirteen authors and hijinks and sued a lot

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Speaker 1: of people. I didn't plan to book tour. I thought

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Speaker 1: I was just gonna be editing, But then something happened

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Speaker 1: when I got up in front of people, like a

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Speaker 1: spark would come through me. And that's where I learned

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Speaker 1: that I could get up in front of people and

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Speaker 1: that I could channel something of the moment into a

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Speaker 1: room of people. But yeah, we were lit up about

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Speaker 1: this idea that electoral organizing should be part of a

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Speaker 1: larger strategy for how we build community and how we

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Speaker 1: change policy. And we just had this moment of like

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Speaker 1: none of us even know how to, Like we're trying

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Speaker 1: to we're trying to change the world, but none of

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Speaker 1: us understand how policy gets developed. None of us understand

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Speaker 1: how our electoral system even works. None of us understand

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Speaker 1: where the loopholes are, and so we're getting you know, redline,

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Speaker 1: we're getting misdirected, we're getting disenfranchised from a system that

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Speaker 1: has actually lot of power over our daily lives. So

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Speaker 1: I felt really hopeful. I thought we were going to win.

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Speaker 1: We didn't, as everyone knows, but yeah, I felt like

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Speaker 1: I learned a ton about organizing there, because you know,

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Speaker 1: the way election organizing works is cyclical, and so it's

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Speaker 1: the cycles where you're like, we're gonna go do our

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Speaker 1: thing and oh now, community, hey, hey, community, we didn't

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Speaker 1: forget about you on the back. We still need to

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Speaker 1: support and then forget about it, and so it's like,

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Speaker 1: how do we make this a sustainable process, like something

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Speaker 1: where the people who are elected see themselves as every

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Speaker 1: day a part of a larger movement of change. It's

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Speaker 1: holistic politics in some way, holistic power contention. You, um,

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Speaker 1: just thank you for Emergence Strategy book. We have it

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Speaker 1: in our house. My wife quotes you like all the time,

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Speaker 1: and the word emergent is just like a part of

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Speaker 1: our relationship. I'm glad. Yeah, it's very cool. Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: I want to you know, on your journey to publishing

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Speaker 1: that book, you were publicly chronicling what I would describe

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Speaker 1: as like the evolution of your your thoughts and practices

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Speaker 1: around this right relationship concept, around emergence itself, and in

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Speaker 1: you wrote the following on your blog. The invitation of

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Speaker 1: Emergent Strategy is to come together in community, build authentic relationships,

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Speaker 1: and see what emerges from the conversations, connections, visions, and needs.

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Speaker 1: I don't see this as creating something from scratch, but

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Speaker 1: rather innovating from need. So I want to share a

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Speaker 1: brief thing and then ask you a thing. You know,

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Speaker 1: our podcast is how to Citizen and developing it, we

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Speaker 1: developed core principles. One of them is that to citizens

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Speaker 1: to invest in relationships with yourself, with others and the

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Speaker 1: planet around you. And so I just I feel very

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Speaker 1: SYMPATICO right now we're swimming in similar waters and honestly

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Speaker 1: probably influenced by you. But this overlapping key that relationships

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Speaker 1: come first. They're like an input into a development, not

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Speaker 1: an afterthought or just a money raising content. How did

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Speaker 1: you arrive at this inside of prioritizing these authentic connections

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Speaker 1: And is there a line from your stop bush work

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Speaker 1: into a deeper respect and prioritization of community and relationship

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Speaker 1: as the first step. Yeah, for sure. You know, I

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Speaker 1: think that loss taught me a lot because we were

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Speaker 1: surrounded by people who were supposedly the most strategic people.

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Speaker 1: We were getting trainings and we're getting you know, we

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Speaker 1: were going through so much work to try to understand

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Speaker 1: how this all work. And and I was like, something's

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Speaker 1: not working, and there's a what at the time I

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Speaker 1: was really calling manipulation. It felt like there's a sense

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Speaker 1: of manipulation inside of this, that we're only engaging in

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Speaker 1: relationship to the degree that we can manipulate people to

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Speaker 1: do what we've already decided they should do, which is

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Speaker 1: to vote for this person, whether or not that's of

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Speaker 1: most service to them, whether or not we understand what

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Speaker 1: their needs are. And again the cyclical nature of it meant,

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Speaker 1: you know, by the time I wrote the book, you know,

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Speaker 1: it was like ten years of different kinds of organizing

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Speaker 1: and direct action, all this stuff had passed, and I

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Speaker 1: was like, do we even know how to do democracy?

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Speaker 1: And I started asking this question to people. I would

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Speaker 1: be in a room full of people and be like,

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Speaker 1: how many of you practice democracy? And I would have

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Speaker 1: everyone like, raise your hands if you think you practice

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Speaker 1: democracy like in your actual life. And I would be like,

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Speaker 1: and people, sometimes, so what do you mean by that?

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Speaker 1: You know? Do you sit down together and talk about

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Speaker 1: how you're spending the resources of your home and your community.

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Speaker 1: Do you talk about how you're agreeing to keep each

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Speaker 1: other safe? Do you talk about how you're agreeing to

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Speaker 1: share time and who has decision making power? And do

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Speaker 1: you make those decisions together? And all this right, So

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Speaker 1: there would always be like these confident people would raise

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Speaker 1: their hands. I'd be like, do you do this in

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Speaker 1: your household? Right? And I was like, are the kids involved?

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Speaker 1: Hands come down? Right? Are your parents involved as anyone

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Speaker 1: else involved? Right? And that's just in the household. So

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Speaker 1: I was like, okay, great for the people who still

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Speaker 1: have your hands up, do you practice it in your neighborhood,

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Speaker 1: like just on your block, And by practicing democracy like

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Speaker 1: on your block, more hands come down. I almost never

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Speaker 1: made it to community, right, that people in in whatever

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Speaker 1: they think of as their community, they weren't practicing democracy.

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Speaker 1: Most people in our organizations aren't practicing democracy. And so

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Speaker 1: something about the fractal nature of that clicked for me,

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Speaker 1: right because I was learning this concept of fractals that

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Speaker 1: were each these small cells of something much larger than ourselves.

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Speaker 1: So I'm like, we're trying to change was at the

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Speaker 1: very top of the structure, the president. You know, we're

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Speaker 1: just if we change that. But I'm like, but no

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Speaker 1: one's actually practicing democracy. So even the people running for

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Speaker 1: office are often people who have never actually practiced democracy

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Speaker 1: in that way, right, and they're not practicing it intimately.

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Speaker 1: So I got kind of excited by that problem because

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Speaker 1: I was like, well, that's something solvable, Like there's practices,

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Speaker 1: all right. I'm like, I respect that there is a problem,

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Speaker 1: and any problem is solvable. Yeah, Like once I was like,

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Speaker 1: got it, Okay, so we need to figure out how

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Speaker 1: to practice to myocracy, small D democracy. And I was

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Speaker 1: definitely influenced by my mentor Grace Lee Bogs. I had

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Speaker 1: moved to Detroit. I was learning from her, and that's

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Speaker 1: one of things she was often talking about, is we

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Speaker 1: need to get people back in the practice. Like she

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Speaker 1: would say, democracy is a really beautiful thing if you

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Speaker 1: actually practice it, but very few of us do. We

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Speaker 1: opt out. We find ways to reinstate hierarchy, to move

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Speaker 1: around having to actually do democratic practice. So that piece

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Speaker 1: around like, well, who am I in relationship with enough

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Speaker 1: that I would want to practice democracy with them? Very few?

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Speaker 1: You know, I have a very high standard for who

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Speaker 1: I want to make decisions with, And that's actually not

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Speaker 1: how the world is structure. You don't just get to decide.

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Speaker 1: And if you were to boil down your definition of

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Speaker 1: democracy with the practice of it, is it as you

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Speaker 1: seem to imply just now, shared decision making, joint decision making?

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Speaker 1: You just said, who am I in community that I

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Speaker 1: don't want to practice democracy with? So how do you define?

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Speaker 1: There's this group called Movement Generation who I adore, and

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Speaker 1: they defy economy as the management of home, the management

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Speaker 1: of the resources of home, which I really love because

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Speaker 1: they're like, anytime we're talking about how we manage our

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Speaker 1: shared resources of the earth, of our community, of our family,

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Speaker 1: that's an economic conversation. And so to me, democracy is

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Speaker 1: in that vein right that I'm like, we're talking about

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Speaker 1: how do we make the decisions about our resources, including

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Speaker 1: the resource of time, the resource of money, the resource

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Speaker 1: of land, the resource of food, the resource of water,

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Speaker 1: the resource of air, the resource of education, And fundamentally,

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Speaker 1: I think that's what governance is about. You know, we're

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Speaker 1: living our lives, but at a certain point we have

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Speaker 1: to say, there's finite resources in a finite lifetime. How

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Speaker 1: are we going to make the decisions related to that?

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Speaker 1: And for me, I don't enjoy debating for the sake

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Speaker 1: of debate. I know some people do. I'm always like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: what's the most logical, practical way that we can share

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Speaker 1: these resources that everyone can actually share them? And this,

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Speaker 1: I'll say, braided into also the science fiction work and

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Speaker 1: reading that I was doing at that time, because Octavia

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Speaker 1: Butler said, you don't know who you're going to end

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Speaker 1: up in the apocalypse with, and so that always felt

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Speaker 1: like this like oh am I going to be a

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Speaker 1: good community with who am I going to have to

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Speaker 1: practice exactly? Right? So I was like, right now we

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Speaker 1: have the privilege many of us are getting to choose

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Speaker 1: who do I want to live with and who do

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Speaker 1: I want to make decisions with and how do I

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Speaker 1: want to do this? But actually, long term, we need

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Speaker 1: to learn how to just do this whoever we land with.

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Speaker 1: And that got me excited because I was like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: what is the future I actually want and how can

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Speaker 1: I start practicing a democratic way of being that moves

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Speaker 1: me towards that the fractal thing and the democracy thing

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Speaker 1: are so intertwined, And I think for me it's been

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Speaker 1: a relief, honestly to hear someone describe the value of

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Speaker 1: the small Yes, Like so much of our save democracy

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Speaker 1: conversation is a lot of words and debate and not

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Speaker 1: actually a lot of practice. It's inches column inches of

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Speaker 1: thoughts and our beds and whatnot, but it evokes large

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Speaker 1: scale structural reforms. And you're based question You're basic, not

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Speaker 1: in the insult, but in the true, like elemental level

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Speaker 1: question of how are we practicing democracy? And the communities

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Speaker 1: were part of what communities are? We are part of first,

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Speaker 1: how are we practicing? What are some of the small practices,

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Speaker 1: the small activities that you think reverberate upward into the

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Speaker 1: larger structure. Yeah, I mean one thing I always say

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Speaker 1: to people because sometimes the binary come the people are

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Speaker 1: large versus small, and like everything large is made up

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Speaker 1: of small parts. We live in an atomic world, so

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Speaker 1: every single thing that you can look at, from another

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Speaker 1: person to a superstructure, to our governance, to a nation,

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Speaker 1: everything is made up of smaller parts. So it's not

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Speaker 1: an either or, it's saying, if I want to impact

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Speaker 1: something large, I have to be able to tune into

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Speaker 1: the smallest practice of that large thing right and then

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Speaker 1: be able to judge it up right. And this has

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Speaker 1: really guided a lot of what emerging strategy has focused on. Right.

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Speaker 1: So conflict, being able to be in conflict with integrity.

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Speaker 1: I call it generative conflict, which I learned from generative somatics.

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Speaker 1: But this idea of like conflict, if we do it well,

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Speaker 1: actually generates more possibilities for us. It really makes it

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Speaker 1: clear that, oh, we can have differences of opinion and

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Speaker 1: we can work through them and find a way for

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Speaker 1: so generative conflict. Our nation is basically broken when it

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Speaker 1: comes to this idea of generative conflict. Right now, conflict is,

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Speaker 1: you know, dropping to the lowest common denominator, throwing insults

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Speaker 1: at each other and seeing the person who you're arguing with,

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Speaker 1: you're trying to dehumanize them. Actually, the democratic process of

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Speaker 1: that generative conflict would be, how do I humanize you

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Speaker 1: even if I totally disagree with you? How do I

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Speaker 1: find the places where there's some potential alignment? And you know,

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Speaker 1: the thing I always come back to is like, we

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Speaker 1: only have this one planet, so we have to figure

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Speaker 1: out how to get along enough to keep going on

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Speaker 1: this planet. Right right, it's the ultimate resource. We're figuring

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Speaker 1: out how to share exactly right. And as much as

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Speaker 1: I pray every day, I'm like, aliens, you know, just

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Speaker 1: help us. You don't even have to come rescue us,

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Speaker 1: just let us know, like if you know a little

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Speaker 1: bit more about how to do this. Um, but generative

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Speaker 1: conflict feels like a really big one. And then actually

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Speaker 1: being able to talk openly about power dynamics is another

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Speaker 1: one that feels really important in most of our organizations.

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Speaker 1: So a lot of my work during this time was

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Speaker 1: facilitating organizations and I would come in, and what always

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Speaker 1: surprised me was the people in power didn't seem to

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Speaker 1: know they were in power, or they didn't seem to

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Speaker 1: be um comfortable talking about how much power they had,

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Speaker 1: and often they would even take a victim role. It's

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Speaker 1: so hard being me trying to just do what I'm doing.

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Speaker 1: And I know as I've ascended into more powerful positions

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Speaker 1: how quickly this happen. Because you're like, no, it really

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Speaker 1: is hard. It's hard, and it's this dirty word. The

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Speaker 1: dirty word comes with baggage of undeserved nous. So you're like,

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Speaker 1: I don't want this thing that I don't deserve. I

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Speaker 1: don't want to feel like I have more than you,

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Speaker 1: but I do exactly, and we also don't want to

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Speaker 1: We both don't want to have it and we don't

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Speaker 1: want to give it up. Like once you have a

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Speaker 1: little bit of it, you're like, um, I'm not sharing

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Speaker 1: this with you now, like mine is kind of nice.

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Speaker 1: So that and then I think we need to get

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Speaker 1: really good at like redistributing resources, and that is actually

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Speaker 1: very difficult, especially if you're right now. We're socialized in

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Speaker 1: America into a capitalist worldview that says, accumulate as much

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Speaker 1: as you can, as individually as you can, and that's

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Speaker 1: how you know you lived a good life. Um And

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Speaker 1: even though we see that doesn't seem to pan out,

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Speaker 1: we see a lot of people who are very wealthy,

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Speaker 1: who are very depressed, very isolated, spinning out all the time.

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Speaker 1: Now we get to see it all on social media,

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Speaker 1: taking over social media, ruinning it. You know, all kinds

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Speaker 1: of fun things are happening for the wealthy. But what

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Speaker 1: we see is they struggle deeply with actually relinquishing, you know,

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Speaker 1: the amount they've gone over what they need. So those

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Speaker 1: are some of the things that I'm like, Oh, do

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Speaker 1: I know how to redistribute my resources? Do I know

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Speaker 1: how to share decision making power? Do I know how

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Speaker 1: to have integrity and a fight? Do I know how

428
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 1: to decentralize power and make decisions with others? I'm great

429
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:13,159
Speaker 1: at it in some contexts. I'm not great at in

430
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:15,120
Speaker 1: all contexts. And I think even being able to be

431
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:20,360
Speaker 1: clear with ourselves about that is useful, you know. Merger strategy.

432
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:22,399
Speaker 1: I had a friend reflect back to me recently that

433
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:25,159
Speaker 1: so much of it is can you become self aware

434
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,679
Speaker 1: of your like where you are in the organization of

435
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,480
Speaker 1: all things, can you become self aware and from that

436
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:34,120
Speaker 1: self awareness have agency over the choices and the decisions

437
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,159
Speaker 1: you make and how you operate, the way you do

438
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:40,360
Speaker 1: your relationships and the beauty and the challenge of that

439
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:46,640
Speaker 1: is it requires internal assessment, internal work, and other than

440
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:50,000
Speaker 1: our training and hyper individualism and growth at all costs,

441
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 1: we have an external training to go out there, be

442
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 1: active out there, like activism is an external thing. You

443
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,200
Speaker 1: find an enemy, you find a villain, and you protest them,

444
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:03,679
Speaker 1: and you go against them. Yeah, point at them and

445
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 1: the me and the us and the eye. It said, well,

446
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 1: I'm fine, I'm the activist, I'm overlord, I'm the virgo

447
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,920
Speaker 1: pect I mean literally perfect, Yes, I mean well, this

448
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 1: is what my mentor again, Grace Lee Box said to me.

449
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 1: You know, we must transform ourselves to transform the world.

450
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:30,159
Speaker 1: And can you briefly remind us of who Grace Lee

451
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 1: bog I would love to. Grace Lee Boggs was a

452
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 1: Chinese American activist who threw her lot in with the

453
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:43,119
Speaker 1: Black liberation struggle in Detroit, and she was an incredible

454
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 1: thinker and writer. She was always finding a new learning

455
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 1: ground and when I met her, she was nine two

456
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,119
Speaker 1: and she lived to be a hundred and so those

457
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 1: eight years of overlap, we're really meaningful years for me.

458
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 1: But yeah, she started a ton of organizations. She was

459
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:03,919
Speaker 1: always starting new experiments and projects. And she and her

460
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,719
Speaker 1: partner Jimmy Boggs in Detroit and they started Detroit Summer.

461
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 1: They started a bike cooperative. They helped with the Avalon

462
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 1: Bakery getting off the ground. But they were always figuring out.

463
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,719
Speaker 1: Like the mayor at one point said, you guys are

464
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 1: a bunch of naysayers, and she was like, oh, yeah,

465
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 1: we can create stuff too. We're not just saying no

466
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 1: to you. We can also create, and so really abundant

467
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:28,359
Speaker 1: creative force and thinker, um, you were bringing up grace

468
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:32,680
Speaker 1: in the context of this internal work and the world

469
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 1: we have to be internally well. I think when I

470
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:38,400
Speaker 1: first heard her say that, I was like, we've got

471
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,359
Speaker 1: such big problems out here, Like I don't need to

472
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 1: go meditate and be quiet with myself. That's not what's necessary.

473
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,919
Speaker 1: Like we've got to save the whole world. And what

474
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:52,680
Speaker 1: has happened as I have matured and been humbled by

475
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,199
Speaker 1: life has been this recognition that the front line of

476
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:58,960
Speaker 1: all these systems is actually inside of me. And again,

477
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,639
Speaker 1: just like there's not a mall versus large, there's not

478
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 1: an in versus out that's an illusion. Right. It's like

479
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 1: all these systems I'm trying to fight against live within

480
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,679
Speaker 1: me as well. And so even as I'm doing the

481
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 1: external work, I also have to be noticing where it's

482
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,680
Speaker 1: showing up within me. Right, And I'm like, oh, I'm

483
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 1: yelling at Jeff Bezos for his billionaire behaviors, but using

484
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 1: Amazon to buy my holiday packages. Like I really look

485
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 1: back at my life and I'm like, oh, transphobia had

486
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,159
Speaker 1: taken root in my life. I've had to work to

487
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:30,639
Speaker 1: clear that in my heart and to be aware of it.

488
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,160
Speaker 1: Fat phobia landed in my life. I had to work

489
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,239
Speaker 1: to love myself. I had to feel how do I

490
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 1: heal that? Capitalism, patriarchy, all these things are within us.

491
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 1: And that's why we're not able to succeed when we

492
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 1: just go with this external fight, because they call out

493
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,359
Speaker 1: our hypocrisy, and our community calls out our hypocrisy. I

494
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:52,040
Speaker 1: think right now we're in this very tender moment inside

495
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:55,879
Speaker 1: of movement space because everyone's pointing in every direction like wait,

496
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 1: you're the you know, It's like yeah, we're all out.

497
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:01,239
Speaker 1: If we like this idea that some of us are

498
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,439
Speaker 1: good and bad, we could get so much more done. Right,

499
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 1: It's like we're all infected by these viral systems, and

500
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:14,639
Speaker 1: we can actually infuse our networks, are my cilial networks

501
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 1: with other energy that actually helps us heal. So if

502
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,119
Speaker 1: the inside is the outside and the small is the large,

503
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,719
Speaker 1: these ideas come from your obsession with fractals, and I

504
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 1: just want to spend a beat on My memory of

505
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 1: fractals goes back to probably high school, maybe middle school, something,

506
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:37,879
Speaker 1: some pubescent times where my hormones and physiology or confusing

507
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 1: my ability to locate it in time specifically. But I

508
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 1: remember pretty pictures, you know, and I remember the idea

509
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 1: of this like small pattern replicated to this large and

510
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 1: beautiful scale which had the exact same pattern in the meta.

511
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 1: How are you defining fractals and tell me a little

512
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 1: bit more about the importance of the from the science

513
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 1: to the application of movement. Yeah, I mean, I feel

514
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 1: like I'm still constantly always trying to understand it scientifically,

515
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 1: and sometimes I'm like to have it. It's this it,

516
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 1: you know. But there's the way I understand fractals is

517
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 1: this the way that we can understand patterns that replicate

518
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 1: themselves in the same way no matter what scale you

519
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 1: find them at, So from the very small to the

520
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 1: very large. And we live in a fractal universe, so

521
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 1: there's patterns that we can find all over all around

522
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 1: us that replicate from the smallest to the largest. And

523
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 1: it's like simple stuff like looking at broccoli or ferns,

524
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 1: or looking at the way the roots of a tree look,

525
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 1: and looking at the way our lungs look, looking at

526
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 1: the way delta's um look from the sky, looking at

527
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 1: the way blood moves through our systems, Like we are

528
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 1: fractal representation of the way the Earth looks and works

529
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 1: and the universe. It's really exciting, right, I always say,

530
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 1: I'm like the we have these the same shape on

531
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 1: our fingerprints as a galaxy. It's really cool, right, Like

532
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 1: you could just geek out and be like, who you know,

533
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 1: I can't stop exactly right, But the revolutionary potential inside

534
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 1: of that is what makes me even more excited, almost titilated, right,

535
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 1: is that, oh, if these patterns replicate, then when we

536
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 1: notice a pattern, we could start to shift it at

537
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 1: a small scale and possibly change the what is able

538
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 1: to even replicate up into the largest scale. That excites me.

539
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 1: Do you have a brief story that exemplifies where a

540
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 1: small pattern shift rippled out and led to a bigger

541
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 1: pattern shift a demonstration of the power of fractal theory

542
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 1: and movement. Yes, I do. So. There's a young black

543
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 1: woman that I hired to work for me back at

544
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 1: the Leaga Piste off voters and stuff was a mess.

545
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 1: The organization was trying to figure out how to organization.

546
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 1: She did not get handled well. But I knew she

547
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:02,720
Speaker 1: was a genius. I knew she was brilliant. I knew

548
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 1: she deserved every chance that she could get. So when

549
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 1: I went to ruck At Society, I hired her again.

550
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 1: I was like, I know that they didn't treat you well,

551
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 1: but I'm bringing you to work with me. And she

552
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 1: learned she was a black strategist, and she learned everything

553
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 1: about direct action, and she was like, black people need

554
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 1: to have this skill set, and I was like, yeah,

555
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 1: run with that, like build it out. She ended up

556
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 1: becoming one of the co founders or something called the

557
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 1: Blackout Collective, which trained all these people in black direct action,

558
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 1: including tons of people who were part of the Black

559
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 1: Lives Matter movement. So when it was time for Black

560
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 1: Lives Matter to escalate and do all this action, they

561
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 1: had some of the best training that you could have

562
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 1: that came through the channel of this black woman who

563
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 1: stays behind the scenes, like she's like, I don't want

564
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 1: all the attention, I don't need all the light on me.

565
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 1: But because of her, they were some of the most coordinated, brilliant, effective,

566
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 1: and media delicious right the mean it was like, oh,

567
00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 1: my goodness, this action. I'm like, yes, and I look

568
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 1: at to me like those stories where I'm like believing

569
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 1: in one person and seeing how one person has a

570
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 1: particular bridge available in them that maybe no one else

571
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 1: can see, and letting them build that bridge leads to

572
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 1: a whole movement being supported and effective and changing the

573
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 1: conversation of our time. Every time I see anything about

574
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 1: Black Lives matters impact and you know, people on the

575
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 1: cover the magazines and everything, I think about her. You know,

576
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 1: I think about that trajectory. Thank you for that clarity.

577
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 1: And I think there's such an interpretive tension where someone

578
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 1: could say, like, oh, she's saying I don't have to

579
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 1: worry about the big stuff. I could just be me,

580
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 1: myself and I in my little abode, in my nuclear

581
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 1: family situation and kind of disconnect, and I think, what

582
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 1: what I'm hearing is, it's all connected. Everything is everything, Hello,

583
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 1: Lauren Hill. And so if we start to adjust at

584
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 1: the small it can ripple out. It's the opposite of

585
00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 1: trickle down. Yeah, and it actually it's like more than

586
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 1: it can, like it does all the time. So part

587
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 1: of it, part of fractal awareness, is just starting to

588
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 1: take responsibility for what am I currently putting into the pattern.

589
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 1: If I'm not paying attention, if I'm mindless, like if

590
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:16,959
Speaker 1: I'm just operating by what I was trained to do,

591
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 1: or if I'm just reactive, most of the people who

592
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 1: are operating that way are putting unhealthy conflict, unhealthy patterns,

593
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 1: passive aggression. Like I tell people, look in your family,

594
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 1: what are the patterns of emotional behavior and conflict resolution

595
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 1: you see in your family? That's usually the same pattern

596
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 1: that you're then helping replicate in the world. Right, all

597
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 1: these people coming from places where fighting is either done

598
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 1: through extreme violence and yelling and anger and awareness or

599
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 1: extreme repression. That was my way, right, push it down,

600
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 1: put a smile on it, keep it moving. And if

601
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 1: those forces are trying to come into relationship, it's going

602
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 1: to be a total mess. And so what needs to

603
00:33:58,000 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 1: change on both sides? You know, in my family we

604
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 1: been in this practice now, Like I'm upset with you,

605
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 1: Like it's a shock to my system every time I

606
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 1: have to be like I'm upset, and I'm trying to

607
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 1: close the gap between when I feel upset and when

608
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:16,399
Speaker 1: I can express that I'm upset, right, And then I'm

609
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 1: also trying to work from that Buddhist principle of is

610
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 1: it kind? Is it true? Is it necessary? When I

611
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:24,799
Speaker 1: communicate that? So it's like I'm upset, and I'm not

612
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 1: trying to smash you or harm you, or or denigrate

613
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 1: you or shrink you. I'm trying to tell you so

614
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:33,360
Speaker 1: that we can adjust, so that we can find that

615
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 1: that right relationship again. And I always bring up my

616
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 1: friend Princess himp Hill, who teaches us that boundaries are

617
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:43,759
Speaker 1: the distance at which I can love you and me simultaneously. Right,

618
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,479
Speaker 1: You're gonna make me cry up in here. I cry

619
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 1: all the time about this stuff. Like when I'm like,

620
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:51,759
Speaker 1: oh my god, Like you know, I'm in my mid

621
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 1: forties and I'm like, what would it look like what

622
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,240
Speaker 1: my whole life look like if I started out learning

623
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 1: how to fight fair and how to have good boundary race,

624
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:02,480
Speaker 1: and that it was okay to express us something hurt

625
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:05,440
Speaker 1: my feelings? And then how would that lead into the

626
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 1: kind of governance that I have done in my life?

627
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 1: What kind of leader would I be if I wasn't

628
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 1: all the time trying to run away from conflict and

629
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 1: I could really say how I felt? And then what

630
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 1: would my city look like if we weren't punitive with

631
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 1: people but instead we're like, oh, there's some harm here.

632
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 1: How do we bring it to the surface and adjust

633
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:27,840
Speaker 1: and hold it as a community? I mean, it's all connected.

634
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 1: It's all connected. The that conflict avoidance and desire not

635
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,880
Speaker 1: to fend offend or push away by stating needs, by

636
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,839
Speaker 1: stating hurt resonated deeply with me. And so that's where

637
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 1: the emotions coming from shown up for you. Oh, I

638
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,040
Speaker 1: think you know. I have a very sacred story around

639
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:55,719
Speaker 1: my own mother and all the things she did for

640
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 1: me for me to survive and just be here and

641
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 1: be able to talk to you. It's a little too

642
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 1: simplistic and binary in the like good person, She was

643
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 1: a good and so I didn't allow her a lot

644
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:12,360
Speaker 1: of shades of other ways of being or any real fallibility.

645
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,920
Speaker 1: And so I grew up very sensitive to her needs

646
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 1: and stall my role as like assisting in that and

647
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 1: so not really articulating my own like I'm a good

648
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:30,320
Speaker 1: and so I didn't have conflict, you know, I accommodated,

649
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:33,400
Speaker 1: I supported, I stood by, or I smothered, you know,

650
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 1: my own sense of conflict. At at some level, I

651
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 1: was worried that this one person who was taking care

652
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 1: of me would it, So that fear prevented in my

653
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 1: own full expression and prevented my own full reception. I

654
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 1: think of her expression, which was more than just good person,

655
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,840
Speaker 1: because there's no such thing. She was just person capable

656
00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:00,720
Speaker 1: of all kinds of things. Yeah. So I've been feeling

657
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:04,359
Speaker 1: through and growing through and emerging from kind of that

658
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:07,239
Speaker 1: story and and trying to shift my pattern so it

659
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 1: fractals out and and become something else. Yeah. After the

660
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:19,359
Speaker 1: break Adrian Marie Brown on using fiction to see democracy

661
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:27,759
Speaker 1: not just as crisis but as possibility. As I was

662
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:31,360
Speaker 1: looking through the principles of emergence that you all have

663
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:35,280
Speaker 1: listed on the Emergence Strategy Institute site several of them

664
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:40,320
Speaker 1: resonated with there's this you know, changes constant, be like water,

665
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 1: and trust the people. If you trust the people, they

666
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 1: become trustworthy. And I'm gonna I'm gonna take you on

667
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 1: a brief journey through my mother or Anita Lorraine Thurston,

668
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 1: because I saw where you got that from loot Zoo,

669
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 1: the each Ing, the Chinese Book of Changes. I grew

670
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:04,920
Speaker 1: up with that text. My mother was a practicing Taoist, Divenor,

671
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:11,440
Speaker 1: she consulted the Eaching. I literally have like six translations

672
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:13,840
Speaker 1: on my desk right now, and so when I was

673
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 1: looking up, you know the origin and that hexagram's kind

674
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:21,799
Speaker 1: of the chapters the verses that this practice points to

675
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 1: in terms of this line, if you don't trust the people,

676
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 1: they become untrustworthy, which you all flipped. If you do

677
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 1: trust the people, they've be contrustworthy. That's made of two tails.

678
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:35,720
Speaker 1: That's made of the top one is essentially a water

679
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 1: or a lake. The bottom is thunder rumble, and they

680
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:42,480
Speaker 1: can symbolize like joy on the top and movement on

681
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 1: the battle, and the harmonious intersection of joy with movement.

682
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:50,840
Speaker 1: That just represents a lot of my mother, as I

683
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,360
Speaker 1: more fully see her. It certainly represents a lot of you,

684
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:56,760
Speaker 1: and so you're like, you're all up in my fractal

685
00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 1: right now, I'm glad in terms of seeing seeing that connectivity.

686
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 1: So I just share that first as a as a

687
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 1: point of connection, as a point of gratitude. I just

688
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:11,720
Speaker 1: love the ways our moms were like and our parents.

689
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 1: You know, I'm like I always it took me so

690
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 1: long to be like, oh, you have culture like you

691
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 1: you have culture, like you have things that you bring

692
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:21,760
Speaker 1: into the house, you know, Like my mom had Khalil

693
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:24,759
Speaker 1: Gibron's the Prophet around and we read it every year,

694
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:26,600
Speaker 1: and it's just certain things. And I'm like, oh, that's

695
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:30,399
Speaker 1: infused into my system in ways that I will never

696
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:32,680
Speaker 1: be able to, like even pull apart. And so I

697
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 1: love that the eaching is in there and the Tao

698
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 1: is in there for you. Um I want to add

699
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,839
Speaker 1: an addendum is the people will become trustworthy or the

700
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:43,800
Speaker 1: boundaries will become clear. I feel like I didn't understand

701
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 1: that until I was experimenting more with emergent strategy, that

702
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:53,360
Speaker 1: not everyone will become trustworthy in my lifetime. Right, I

703
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 1: have practiced hard at extending my trust to people in

704
00:39:57,280 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 1: spite of my intuition or in spite of their being

705
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:02,800
Speaker 1: and being like, oh, you know what, I have to

706
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 1: also trust myself. I have to trust myself to know

707
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 1: when a boundary is needed. So I just wanted to

708
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 1: I always try to make that sure that's added on there.

709
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:12,959
Speaker 1: Thank you. The other principle that I want to ask

710
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:17,320
Speaker 1: you about is there's always enough time for the right work. Yes,

711
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:23,239
Speaker 1: in this time when we think about shifting patterns and

712
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 1: practicing democracy and creating a healthier culture of it, what

713
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:30,960
Speaker 1: do you see as the right work right now? You know,

714
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:33,400
Speaker 1: listening back to the book or like listening back to

715
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:35,280
Speaker 1: things from the book, I can feel how my virgo

716
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:37,239
Speaker 1: was such at the front, Like the word right is

717
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:40,239
Speaker 1: everywhere in it. And what I mean by right there

718
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 1: is meaningful work, transformative work, the work that is radical

719
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:48,560
Speaker 1: in the sense of what Angel Davis talks about, like

720
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 1: going to the route and actually trying to pull something

721
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 1: up from the root. And so when I was facilitating

722
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:58,120
Speaker 1: as my main way of spending my time, I was

723
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 1: always looking for that. I'm like, Okay, we're having a

724
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 1: conversation up here and it's petty and it feels chaotic,

725
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:08,440
Speaker 1: but could we go deeper? Could we go underneath that?

726
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 1: Like what's actually at stake? And you know there's something

727
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:14,359
Speaker 1: really tender and what you just said about your mother

728
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:16,719
Speaker 1: where you're like, if I had a conflict with her,

729
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 1: what I stopped being cared for? Like it goes so

730
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 1: deep actually, and for most of us, that's what's happening

731
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:25,920
Speaker 1: is if this thing breaks, is my survival on the line?

732
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:29,880
Speaker 1: Is my fundamental belonging on the line? Like, and we

733
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:31,839
Speaker 1: don't want that to be what we're talking about when

734
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:35,960
Speaker 1: we're having an organizational struggle, when we're having a familiar struggle,

735
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 1: we're having a community struggle, but usually that's what we're saying,

736
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 1: am I going to be left out? And am I

737
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:43,360
Speaker 1: not going to live? Or is no one going to

738
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:46,400
Speaker 1: love me? Am I unlovable? Like it's really deep territory.

739
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:49,759
Speaker 1: So as a facilitator, I was always like, can we

740
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:52,720
Speaker 1: get to the twenty leagues as quickly in the meeting

741
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:56,560
Speaker 1: as possible because that's where the shift will happen that

742
00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 1: will allow this thing to move. Um. I I was like,

743
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 1: I don't want to be the kind of facilitator who's

744
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 1: like making a very beautiful deck chair arrangement on a Titanic, right,

745
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 1: I really want to be like, if the ship is sinking,

746
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 1: what do we have to do? And I think we're

747
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:16,600
Speaker 1: in that moment of human history, human existence, and particularly nation.

748
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:19,400
Speaker 1: You know, I call myself a post nationalist, which doesn't

749
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:22,279
Speaker 1: mean that we won't be citizens of something. I think

750
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:23,719
Speaker 1: that we have to learn how to be citizens to

751
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 1: each other, citizens of something that we can actually belong to,

752
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:28,799
Speaker 1: and the cares for us and loves us. I'm not

753
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:32,799
Speaker 1: sure that the US experiment will be that right, and

754
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:34,400
Speaker 1: I feel like we have to be able to say that, Like,

755
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 1: if this ship is sinking, but we're all still alive,

756
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:40,879
Speaker 1: and there's still an earth here, there's still a way

757
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 1: to live. How quickly will we tune into that? How

758
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:48,799
Speaker 1: quickly can we have the right conversation? And that's what

759
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:51,279
Speaker 1: I'm now trying to affect on the largest scale, Like

760
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 1: most of my writing, most of my books are like,

761
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:57,759
Speaker 1: the climate condition is no longer pending. It's just a

762
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:00,120
Speaker 1: matter of your level of privilege in terms of how

763
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 1: much you're experiencing it. And the climate situation is not

764
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:07,239
Speaker 1: the only thing, but it is a big, potentially unifying

765
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 1: human condition, and we're being distracted from it. You know,

766
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:13,960
Speaker 1: Tony Morrison talked about racism is a distraction, but there's

767
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:16,080
Speaker 1: so many others as well. There's so many things that

768
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 1: we are being distracted from our best selves to stay

769
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:22,319
Speaker 1: battling for our right to exist, and it's like, no,

770
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 1: we have the right to exist. The Earth gives us

771
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:28,000
Speaker 1: everything we need. Can we accept the gift? Can we

772
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:30,719
Speaker 1: get back into that right relationship? Can we spend our

773
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 1: time on the right works. That's what that arc is

774
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:39,320
Speaker 1: mm hmm. Thank you for putting voice to the possibility

775
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 1: that the story that we've created of something like the

776
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:46,239
Speaker 1: United States or nation in particular, isn't the end of

777
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:49,080
Speaker 1: the communities we can define for our own survival and

778
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 1: our own thriving and to get deeper than that. Empires fall, empires, fault,

779
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:57,799
Speaker 1: humans continue, people continue. Yeah, so far and we can

780
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:05,320
Speaker 1: see us continue. Am really into hum is my preferred

781
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:08,239
Speaker 1: my strong preference for a planet like my strong preference too.

782
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:11,359
Speaker 1: I'm like until we find like other Earth situations, um,

783
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:14,400
Speaker 1: you know, but I do think like throughout human history,

784
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 1: it gives me some kind of peace to be like, oh,

785
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:21,280
Speaker 1: the Roman Empire, the British Empire, these empires, like things

786
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:25,600
Speaker 1: change but then humans are so wonderful. I mean, you know,

787
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:28,080
Speaker 1: we do awful things to each other. But I really

788
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:30,560
Speaker 1: have also been really trying to say, how do I

789
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:33,359
Speaker 1: bring my attention to what's best in us? And how

790
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:34,800
Speaker 1: do we grow that? You know, I always say what

791
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 1: we pay attention to grows, And so I'm like, that

792
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 1: moment you're talking about with your mother, I'm like, that

793
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:41,440
Speaker 1: might be the best part of you, right, is that tender,

794
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:44,319
Speaker 1: vulnerable part of you that loves your mom, And like,

795
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 1: from that place is learning how to love in your life.

796
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 1: You know, I feel that way with my parents and

797
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:51,799
Speaker 1: my grand I'm just having a major breakthrough with my

798
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:56,399
Speaker 1: grandmother after a long estrangement, and I'm like, I mean

799
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 1: it's just really yeah, it's really fresh. But it's like,

800
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 1: can I give possibility for this woman who's ninety to

801
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 1: love me still, you know, or love me again or

802
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:10,080
Speaker 1: fall back or come learn how to love me in

803
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 1: spite of all her beliefs And it's so tender. It's

804
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:16,760
Speaker 1: like everything about love and humans is in those moments.

805
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 1: Thank you for sharing that and where you're at right now.

806
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:27,239
Speaker 1: And this word possibility kind of coincides with the sci

807
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:30,880
Speaker 1: fi world that you're also so deeply embedded with and

808
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:35,960
Speaker 1: inspired by and contributing to. Now, I mean China Meavil's

809
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 1: work and inspiration shows up. I remember from the Scar

810
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:42,920
Speaker 1: the Possible Sword, So I want everyone. I'm like, I

811
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:45,000
Speaker 1: can't believe we're not all talking about the Possibiley Sword

812
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:48,839
Speaker 1: all the time, the cost thing that ever happened than

813
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:53,600
Speaker 1: anyone ever wrote. I really yeah, please make all your

814
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:59,239
Speaker 1: people read it. Okay, hold up, wait a minute, we

815
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 1: interrupt this black nerd moment to offer an explainer tune

816
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:06,839
Speaker 1: day about the Possible Sword. Back in the early two thousand's,

817
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:10,920
Speaker 1: a friend introduced me to China Mieville, this British science

818
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:15,319
Speaker 1: fiction and fantasy author who writes incredible supernatural and speculative

819
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:18,239
Speaker 1: world I read three of his works, all set in

820
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:20,920
Speaker 1: the same world of boss Log, and in one of

821
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:24,400
Speaker 1: those books, the Scar, this thing called the Possible Sword

822
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 1: was introduced. According to the boss Log Wicki, you gotta

823
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:30,160
Speaker 1: love the Internet, a fake place with a real Wicki

824
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 1: entry quote. The Blade minds possibilities from the swordsman's motions.

825
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:39,319
Speaker 1: By injecting controlled uncertainty into his or her movements, the

826
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:42,760
Speaker 1: swordsman is able to land an arbitrary number of solid

827
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:46,680
Speaker 1: possible hits in addition to the factual hits. The effect

828
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:49,960
Speaker 1: is that the swordsman's arm appears to blur and the

829
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:53,680
Speaker 1: swords targets suffers several dozen cuts with each swing of

830
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:57,880
Speaker 1: the sword. So basically, the possible sword is this object

831
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:01,120
Speaker 1: that represents both what we do with it and everything

832
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:04,359
Speaker 1: we could do with it. And China Mievil didn't stop there.

833
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:09,680
Speaker 1: The possible sword is powered by a possibility engine. This

834
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 1: is some magical quantum technology. Obviously not real or is it?

835
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:18,239
Speaker 1: To me? It just means that we all have more

836
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 1: possibilities within us than we often acknowledge, and sometimes we

837
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 1: need fiction to remind us of our ability to change facts.

838
00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:29,600
Speaker 1: And knowing that Adrian Marie Brown has read and incorporated

839
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:33,279
Speaker 1: ideas from authors like China Mievil, it's simply dope to

840
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:40,240
Speaker 1: me and hopefully to YouTube. Now back to my giddy

841
00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 1: nerd out moment over sci fi writers, Please make all

842
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:47,920
Speaker 1: your people read it because it is the coolest thing

843
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:51,239
Speaker 1: I've read, because it gives shows up. But but but no

844
00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 1: one shows up more than the name. You've already sided,

845
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:56,440
Speaker 1: the woman you've already started, Octavia Butler. You've got a

846
00:47:56,440 --> 00:48:00,279
Speaker 1: whole podcast dedicated to sharing her work. Thank You were that.

847
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:03,000
Speaker 1: I dove into the parable of the solar and parable

848
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:06,440
Speaker 1: of the talent during COVID lockdown, as I was traveling

849
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:10,520
Speaker 1: the country heavily alone making the America Outdoors PBS series,

850
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:13,080
Speaker 1: writing my relationship with nature, with this system in my

851
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:16,480
Speaker 1: head during the apocalypse, choosing community. But what stood out

852
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:24,360
Speaker 1: to me is the possibility of growth and community and democracy,

853
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 1: even and especially in an apocalyptic setting. You know this

854
00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:31,719
Speaker 1: this acorn community that that is featured, and the way

855
00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:34,520
Speaker 1: people show up for each other. What do you think

856
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:39,399
Speaker 1: Octavia Butler can teach us about citizening as a verb

857
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:45,840
Speaker 1: about practicing democracy. Mm hmm. Yeah. One of the reasons

858
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:47,719
Speaker 1: I go back to her over and over again is

859
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:50,960
Speaker 1: because she was writing from a place of despair, like

860
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:55,960
Speaker 1: she was paying attention enough to be like, yeah, yeah,

861
00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:59,440
Speaker 1: this is very upsetting and a lot of we call

862
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 1: her profect, many people say she's prophetic, but really she

863
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:04,480
Speaker 1: was like, I'm just paying attention and this is the

864
00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:07,360
Speaker 1: inevitable place that things lead to if we don't change

865
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:11,759
Speaker 1: our behavior. And I love that because that seems to

866
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:14,360
Speaker 1: me like a fundamental citizen skill is to be like,

867
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:18,279
Speaker 1: can you actually take in what's really happening and and

868
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:20,560
Speaker 1: just follow that thread and just be like, oh, is

869
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:22,359
Speaker 1: that the Am I down with that? Am I down

870
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:25,000
Speaker 1: to participate in that? I think if more of us

871
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:27,520
Speaker 1: thought that way, they'd be interventions we would make in

872
00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:29,840
Speaker 1: the immediate because we're like, oh, I don't want us

873
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:33,640
Speaker 1: to get there. But she also said so many things

874
00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:36,440
Speaker 1: around who we asked to lead us or who we

875
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 1: allow to lead us, and what are the qualities of

876
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:43,399
Speaker 1: what we think of as leadership. So I think right

877
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:46,200
Speaker 1: now we've gotten very comfortable with having people in leadership

878
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:49,880
Speaker 1: who lie to us, and we give a lot of

879
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 1: money to people to campaign in ways that we know

880
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:56,200
Speaker 1: are dishonest and saying things that were like the they

881
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:57,960
Speaker 1: may or may not ever do that, and then when

882
00:49:58,000 --> 00:49:59,759
Speaker 1: they get in office they don't do it, and we're like,

883
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:02,960
Speaker 1: you know, it's like the normal thing now is to

884
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:06,239
Speaker 1: be like, who's the best, most charming, maybe somewhat attractive,

885
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:11,120
Speaker 1: married liar that we can Yeah, I want my liar,

886
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:14,160
Speaker 1: not your liar, right exactly, you get me. So I

887
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:16,480
Speaker 1: think one of the things Octavia is often pointing to

888
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:18,239
Speaker 1: is what does it mean to be a leader? Who

889
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:20,319
Speaker 1: tells the truth. What does it mean to be a

890
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:23,480
Speaker 1: leader who especially when the truth is hard and it's like,

891
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 1: this isn't the truth you wanted to hear. I'm really

892
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:27,960
Speaker 1: interested right now, and like, who are people who are

893
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:30,440
Speaker 1: willing to lead and say things are probably going to

894
00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:33,080
Speaker 1: get worse? Like we're heading into a period of human

895
00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 1: history where what we're experiencing now, a lot of the

896
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:39,000
Speaker 1: shock of it is because those who could have prepared

897
00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:44,160
Speaker 1: us for it have not nowhere more clear than climate exactly.

898
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 1: I'm like, you don't want to there's no positive pitch

899
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:49,440
Speaker 1: to the amount of pandemic we're heading into. There's no

900
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:52,480
Speaker 1: positive pitch to the amount of climate crisis we're heading into.

901
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:56,160
Speaker 1: But there's possibility in it if we actually say we're

902
00:50:56,160 --> 00:50:59,319
Speaker 1: heading into it. The storm is directly ahead for some

903
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:01,319
Speaker 1: of us were already in it, and we can make

904
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:05,720
Speaker 1: adaptations right now that increase maximum survival and that actually

905
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:08,600
Speaker 1: make it so that survival could be generative and pleasurable

906
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:11,799
Speaker 1: and fun. But it requires letting go of some of

907
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:15,120
Speaker 1: the ways we were imagining this time. So Octavia was like,

908
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:17,160
Speaker 1: what if we let go of even the idea of

909
00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:20,120
Speaker 1: having to stay here at Earth? Like, what if the

910
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:23,200
Speaker 1: possibility for human life is to take root amongst the stars?

911
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:27,120
Speaker 1: And that felt like a viable possibility for her. Something

912
00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:29,759
Speaker 1: I know from studying some of the papers in the

913
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:32,400
Speaker 1: drafts that she's done of the Parable of the Trickster,

914
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:34,200
Speaker 1: which would have been the third book in that trilogy,

915
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:37,040
Speaker 1: was that all the other planets that she could imagine

916
00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:39,879
Speaker 1: depressed her, Like she couldn't actually finish the next book

917
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:43,239
Speaker 1: because she was like, I think trying to write other

918
00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:46,440
Speaker 1: planets made her love Earth so much. Then from reading that,

919
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:49,960
Speaker 1: my conclusion is taking root amongst the stars would also

920
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:53,320
Speaker 1: mean taking root here, like this is our place amongst

921
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:56,959
Speaker 1: the stars, and if we don't take root here, then

922
00:51:57,000 --> 00:51:59,080
Speaker 1: the Earth will have to cast us off. You know,

923
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:02,000
Speaker 1: everything else goes extinct and the Earth continues. Has been

924
00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:05,759
Speaker 1: the pattern, And I'm interested in leaders who are like, hey,

925
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:09,360
Speaker 1: let's not go extinct, right, Let's make the adaptations we

926
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:11,359
Speaker 1: need to make to not go extinct. What does that

927
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 1: look like? And I also think that she she believed

928
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:19,440
Speaker 1: in the small community. So you mentioned the Acorn community

929
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:23,200
Speaker 1: where they were practicing, but Acorn, you know, spoiler, I

930
00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:25,359
Speaker 1: feel okay spoiling it because it's been out for so long.

931
00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:29,040
Speaker 1: But spoiler, that community gets destroyed by the Christian right

932
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:33,000
Speaker 1: in her book, and her people don't give up. Right,

933
00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:35,359
Speaker 1: their children are kidnap from them, they still don't give up.

934
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:38,960
Speaker 1: They change their strategy to a Zapatista model where they're

935
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:41,520
Speaker 1: going door to door and saying, let's build a shared vision.

936
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:44,520
Speaker 1: Here's what earth seat is, here's what the practices are,

937
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:47,560
Speaker 1: and all we need is a small and mighty crew

938
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:50,640
Speaker 1: that believes in this and we can actually hold on

939
00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:54,799
Speaker 1: to some possibility for humanity. Right. And that has been

940
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:58,359
Speaker 1: really meaningful to me as an organizer because I'm like, oh,

941
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:01,920
Speaker 1: some of my comrades go the biggest bucket and I

942
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:04,040
Speaker 1: love that, and it's I get really moved by the

943
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:07,240
Speaker 1: work that they do. But what I have been drawn

944
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 1: to is how do I approach every single person I

945
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:13,319
Speaker 1: interact with as a potential freedom fighter, as a potential comrade,

946
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:16,880
Speaker 1: and whatever location they're in is their front line, including

947
00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:19,720
Speaker 1: the front line within themselves and wherever they are, And

948
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:23,759
Speaker 1: I find really interesting people ready to roll and play

949
00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:27,960
Speaker 1: and experiment with me in that way unexpected, right. And

950
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:32,360
Speaker 1: I'm always like, yeah, I think we really underestimate folks

951
00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:34,759
Speaker 1: who are at the barbershop. We underestimate the person on

952
00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:37,040
Speaker 1: the bus, We underestimate the stranger we meet on the plane,

953
00:53:37,520 --> 00:53:40,719
Speaker 1: We underestimate our coworkers. You know, I'm like, you're not

954
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:43,800
Speaker 1: just the job title you have, Like how are you

955
00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:46,600
Speaker 1: going to survive? Let's talk about it, right, And I'm

956
00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:50,799
Speaker 1: trying to encourage more people to have those conversations. You know,

957
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:53,880
Speaker 1: There's been these moments for me. I was in Italy

958
00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:57,120
Speaker 1: when COVID nineteen, like when it hit, was like, oh,

959
00:53:57,160 --> 00:53:59,600
Speaker 1: this is a crisis and like everything's about to shut down.

960
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:02,080
Speaker 1: There's these moments in history where you're like, oh where

961
00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:05,400
Speaker 1: am I Am I with people that I can trust

962
00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:08,800
Speaker 1: right now? Will these people keep me safe? I was

963
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:10,480
Speaker 1: in Italy. I was like I don't speak the language.

964
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:12,160
Speaker 1: I mean this little world town. I have to go

965
00:54:12,239 --> 00:54:15,879
Speaker 1: back home. I was like, I need to find people

966
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:20,319
Speaker 1: that are my people enough to starve in your own earth. Yeah.

967
00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:23,200
Speaker 1: I had to go find my earth right, which was

968
00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:25,319
Speaker 1: with some whales in Hawaii. But it was like this

969
00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:27,279
Speaker 1: is what it Also, the whales have a lot to

970
00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:31,040
Speaker 1: tell us. There's also seems like that's the consistent message.

971
00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:33,759
Speaker 1: Everyone has a lot to tell us. If we're able

972
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:37,160
Speaker 1: to listen, and there's this fractal link I'm feeling between

973
00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:39,880
Speaker 1: you and someone like and say who fought you know

974
00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:43,080
Speaker 1: who reminds us the way you talked about the barbershop

975
00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:45,839
Speaker 1: person or your coworker. We underestimate them, We don't ask

976
00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:48,399
Speaker 1: much of them, we don't see much potential in them.

977
00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:53,319
Speaker 1: But if we shifted that and saw the opposite, we'd

978
00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:58,600
Speaker 1: have so much more access to power collectively. And so

979
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:02,720
Speaker 1: the whale, the harbor, the co worker, the non voter,

980
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:06,919
Speaker 1: these are all possible allies and community members to help

981
00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:11,000
Speaker 1: us practice democracy with exactly And you know, in our nation,

982
00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:14,160
Speaker 1: I would also have to say the non citizen, right,

983
00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:18,000
Speaker 1: the person who can't vote, the person who you know.

984
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:20,200
Speaker 1: I think of that Worrisonshire poem all the time, and

985
00:55:20,239 --> 00:55:21,960
Speaker 1: it's like the person who had to leave where they

986
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:24,600
Speaker 1: were to come here, because this felt like the safest

987
00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:30,080
Speaker 1: possible option real quick for anyone wondering. That Worrisonshire poem

988
00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:34,120
Speaker 1: referenced is called home now. Worrisonshire is a Somali British

989
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:36,719
Speaker 1: writer and poet, and she wrote that poem inspired by

990
00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:39,799
Speaker 1: a visit she made to the abandoned Somali embassy in Rome,

991
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:43,480
Speaker 1: which some young refugees had turned into their home. We've

992
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:45,279
Speaker 1: got it linked in the show notes if you want

993
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:47,719
Speaker 1: to check it out. Hint, you want to check it

994
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:55,720
Speaker 1: out now? Back to Adrian felt like the safest possible option.

995
00:55:55,960 --> 00:55:59,080
Speaker 1: Powerful poem. Yeah, I get reminded often. I'm like, you

996
00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:03,120
Speaker 1: don't understand the privilege of this place. And I think

997
00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:05,480
Speaker 1: about that. I'm like, how would I operate if I did?

998
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:08,600
Speaker 1: How what would change if I wasn't complaining all the

999
00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:10,600
Speaker 1: time but figuring out what do I have the freedom

1000
00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:13,120
Speaker 1: to practice? I've been saying this lately that I feel

1001
00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:15,360
Speaker 1: like one of the freest people to ever live, and

1002
00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:19,120
Speaker 1: it kind of that's daunting to me, because I'm like,

1003
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:21,080
Speaker 1: do I deserve this freedom? Am I doing the right

1004
00:56:21,120 --> 00:56:22,960
Speaker 1: thing with it? But I think the right thing is

1005
00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:25,799
Speaker 1: to be in it, right, to actually be in it

1006
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:29,600
Speaker 1: and feel what becomes possible inside of that um And

1007
00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:33,359
Speaker 1: I want to invite everyone who's listening. I'm like, it's

1008
00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:35,760
Speaker 1: not just me, it's also you, Like we are amongst

1009
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:39,400
Speaker 1: the freest people to ever live, and I don't think

1010
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:45,600
Speaker 1: we're taking it seriously enough. Yeah, Imagination Battle, you have

1011
00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:49,080
Speaker 1: used this phrase and said that we are inside of.

1012
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:52,600
Speaker 1: Essentially we're engaged in an imagination battle. Can you explain

1013
00:56:52,640 --> 00:56:54,840
Speaker 1: what you mean by that. I learned this from my

1014
00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:58,640
Speaker 1: friend Terry Marshall, who does a project called Intelligent Mischief

1015
00:56:58,719 --> 00:57:03,120
Speaker 1: in Boston, and it was this idea that everything that

1016
00:57:03,160 --> 00:57:05,520
Speaker 1: we live inside of right now was imagined by someone,

1017
00:57:05,600 --> 00:57:08,080
Speaker 1: because especially the stuff we were like, I'm not inferior

1018
00:57:08,080 --> 00:57:10,160
Speaker 1: to a man, like I can tell I can feel

1019
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:13,839
Speaker 1: it in my body, but a man. Yeah, I've met men,

1020
00:57:14,719 --> 00:57:16,880
Speaker 1: and you know, I'm not saying I'm superior to all

1021
00:57:16,880 --> 00:57:20,680
Speaker 1: of them, but I do recognize that or white supremacy. Right,

1022
00:57:20,680 --> 00:57:23,600
Speaker 1: It's like the idea that whiteness is superior to everything

1023
00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:25,840
Speaker 1: else as someone imagined that. That's not how the world

1024
00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:28,640
Speaker 1: is actually set up as a fictional concept, but when

1025
00:57:28,640 --> 00:57:32,480
Speaker 1: that person imagined it, they were so compelling, right, and

1026
00:57:32,560 --> 00:57:35,240
Speaker 1: whiteness was their fear was so compelling to them. The

1027
00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:39,440
Speaker 1: story addressed some of their fear of coming across people

1028
00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:40,960
Speaker 1: that look different from them and not knowing how to

1029
00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:44,560
Speaker 1: process that. That story is still compelling. You know. When

1030
00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:47,200
Speaker 1: I wrote Emergent Strategy, one of the vignettes that I

1031
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:50,200
Speaker 1: included in there was the fact that if you look

1032
00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:52,800
Speaker 1: at what happened with with a Mike Brown, is that

1033
00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:56,040
Speaker 1: he was killed because of the white imagination that sees

1034
00:57:56,400 --> 00:57:58,560
Speaker 1: him as a threat, that sees him as a danger

1035
00:57:59,120 --> 00:58:03,560
Speaker 1: as an unarmed black young person, right, And that now

1036
00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:07,200
Speaker 1: it's not unusual that those who have the authority to

1037
00:58:07,240 --> 00:58:11,000
Speaker 1: be armed and policing our communities can go into a

1038
00:58:11,040 --> 00:58:13,400
Speaker 1: court system or can take this to their boss and say,

1039
00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:17,200
Speaker 1: I imagine they were dangerous, and that's considered a qualifiable

1040
00:58:17,440 --> 00:58:21,120
Speaker 1: defense to why they murdered someone. Right. So the power

1041
00:58:21,120 --> 00:58:24,160
Speaker 1: of the imagination in that context has to be taken seriously,

1042
00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:26,040
Speaker 1: and it means that then we have to take our

1043
00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:29,000
Speaker 1: imagination seriously for moving our way out of this. And

1044
00:58:29,360 --> 00:58:32,560
Speaker 1: my friend Jeanine d Novaje is working on a book

1045
00:58:32,640 --> 00:58:34,680
Speaker 1: right now called Brave Community that's going to come out.

1046
00:58:34,720 --> 00:58:37,760
Speaker 1: She talks about the post racist imagination. I think about

1047
00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:40,520
Speaker 1: this all the time, like, how do we harness our

1048
00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:44,160
Speaker 1: imagination to actually advance the world we want and to

1049
00:58:44,440 --> 00:58:47,480
Speaker 1: invite people into a compelling space to practice that world

1050
00:58:47,880 --> 00:58:52,600
Speaker 1: rather than staying stuck in someone else's imagination. Jeanine is

1051
00:58:52,680 --> 00:58:56,160
Speaker 1: a regular member of the how the citizen community is

1052
00:58:56,200 --> 00:59:01,640
Speaker 1: here literally right now you're probably feel love it. I

1053
00:59:01,760 --> 00:59:03,960
Speaker 1: love you. We'll probably see if we can bring her

1054
00:59:04,040 --> 00:59:08,400
Speaker 1: up in a moment. Yes, excited about about Janine's book,

1055
00:59:08,520 --> 00:59:11,560
Speaker 1: But that imagination work is the thing right that. It's like,

1056
00:59:13,040 --> 00:59:15,360
Speaker 1: right now, are we able to imagine? You know? I

1057
00:59:15,440 --> 00:59:18,000
Speaker 1: also think about this with what stories get told. They're

1058
00:59:18,040 --> 00:59:20,880
Speaker 1: all the post apocalyptic movies and everything, kind of like,

1059
00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:24,320
Speaker 1: who's putting out those stories that can imagine us surviving?

1060
00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:27,800
Speaker 1: I really loved the story of Station eleven, so hoping

1061
00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:29,360
Speaker 1: you were going to say that, I had my fingers

1062
00:59:29,360 --> 00:59:31,600
Speaker 1: and toes crossed, but I didn't want to be loved it.

1063
00:59:31,640 --> 00:59:33,960
Speaker 1: I thought it was such a beautiful imagination of what

1064
00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:37,920
Speaker 1: it could look like. Yeah, I totally agree. I'm on board.

1065
00:59:38,680 --> 00:59:42,880
Speaker 1: Imagination is powerful and we need to imagine better, essentially

1066
00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:47,080
Speaker 1: for ourselves with each other. What are some ways that

1067
00:59:47,120 --> 00:59:52,000
Speaker 1: we can practice that. I feel like we've stifled our imagination.

1068
00:59:52,160 --> 00:59:54,840
Speaker 1: We are very good at adopting other people's stories and

1069
00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:59,240
Speaker 1: other people's fictions and finding freedom within that. But that

1070
00:59:59,240 --> 01:00:02,680
Speaker 1: feels really sma all when you expand the canvas and say,

1071
01:00:02,680 --> 01:00:05,760
Speaker 1: but what about a whole another premise? So what are

1072
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:10,000
Speaker 1: ways we could practice flexing our imagination, stretching our imagination

1073
01:00:10,320 --> 01:00:13,160
Speaker 1: in the domain of what do you even means to

1074
01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:16,720
Speaker 1: practice democracy? Yeah, I mean I have this practice I

1075
01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:20,800
Speaker 1: call collaborative ideation, and it's really having people sit in

1076
01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:24,560
Speaker 1: a community, sit in a circle and say, what in

1077
01:00:24,600 --> 01:00:28,680
Speaker 1: our community needs are the medicine of our imagination? The

1078
01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:31,400
Speaker 1: medicine of our imagination? Where do we feel so stuck

1079
01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:34,360
Speaker 1: that we can't figure out the policy way forward? We

1080
01:00:34,360 --> 01:00:36,520
Speaker 1: can't figure out this five year plan, like we can't

1081
01:00:36,520 --> 01:00:39,600
Speaker 1: figure it out? And have people I D eight together

1082
01:00:40,480 --> 01:00:46,480
Speaker 1: place yourself in the future. You know, however far you

1083
01:00:46,480 --> 01:00:48,680
Speaker 1: can most of us about ten years is how far

1084
01:00:48,720 --> 01:00:51,160
Speaker 1: we can actually go out. Anything beyond that is like,

1085
01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:54,880
Speaker 1: let's stretch and actually say if we had landed this,

1086
01:00:55,680 --> 01:00:57,840
Speaker 1: if we had applied the medicine and this thing was

1087
01:00:57,880 --> 01:01:00,800
Speaker 1: actually healed and it was functional, what would that look like?

1088
01:01:00,960 --> 01:01:03,640
Speaker 1: And the ideation is like what would housing look like,

1089
01:01:03,640 --> 01:01:06,439
Speaker 1: old transportation look like, how would we talk to our kids?

1090
01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:09,640
Speaker 1: What would be the normal values and principles? And so

1091
01:01:09,680 --> 01:01:12,080
Speaker 1: we kind of build a world together and then ask

1092
01:01:12,120 --> 01:01:14,760
Speaker 1: everyone to write short stories in that world, and a

1093
01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:16,120
Speaker 1: lot of people are like, I'm not a writer. I

1094
01:01:16,120 --> 01:01:17,920
Speaker 1: don't write fiction. I'm like, you lie to yourself all

1095
01:01:17,920 --> 01:01:19,280
Speaker 1: the time. You write fiction all the time, You come

1096
01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:21,000
Speaker 1: up with stories about when someone else is thinking about.

1097
01:01:21,400 --> 01:01:25,320
Speaker 1: Everyone is writing fiction all the time, right, But it's

1098
01:01:25,440 --> 01:01:27,880
Speaker 1: taking that harnessing and just making you could tell about

1099
01:01:27,920 --> 01:01:29,880
Speaker 1: the story. Sometimes that's the way. Just tell me, like

1100
01:01:30,360 --> 01:01:32,800
Speaker 1: in a movie of this, what would happen, and then

1101
01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:35,160
Speaker 1: have people share that with each other, and you're it's

1102
01:01:35,160 --> 01:01:38,720
Speaker 1: amazing how much is living inside us already. But it

1103
01:01:38,760 --> 01:01:42,520
Speaker 1: requires setting down the scroll, putting down the social media,

1104
01:01:42,840 --> 01:01:47,040
Speaker 1: putting down all that external incoming doom news, and actually

1105
01:01:47,080 --> 01:01:49,000
Speaker 1: sitting down with people that you love and care about

1106
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:51,720
Speaker 1: and just being like, can we just imagine what it

1107
01:01:51,760 --> 01:01:53,840
Speaker 1: could look like if this was no longer a problem?

1108
01:01:54,200 --> 01:01:55,880
Speaker 1: Which is also what Octavia did was she was like,

1109
01:01:55,920 --> 01:01:58,960
Speaker 1: let's have new problems. I resolved this one, but now

1110
01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:01,360
Speaker 1: there's new ones that are emerged. Because we're humans, there's

1111
01:02:01,360 --> 01:02:04,520
Speaker 1: going to be more. But I love that practice, and

1112
01:02:04,560 --> 01:02:07,120
Speaker 1: in a small scale, the fractal practice. It's in a

1113
01:02:07,160 --> 01:02:10,360
Speaker 1: conversation when you hear someone stuck asked them, could you

1114
01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:12,440
Speaker 1: imagine what it would be like if this was resolved?

1115
01:02:13,040 --> 01:02:15,600
Speaker 1: Like what would it feel like in your system? Let it.

1116
01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:18,440
Speaker 1: Let yourself feel at first, and then tell me what's different.

1117
01:02:19,240 --> 01:02:21,600
Speaker 1: That's a powerful practice. I'm gonna I'm gonna practice at dinner.

1118
01:02:21,640 --> 01:02:24,240
Speaker 1: I'm gonna practice at drinks with friends. Yeah, especially people

1119
01:02:24,240 --> 01:02:27,280
Speaker 1: who have kids know this. I'm like, we are the

1120
01:02:27,360 --> 01:02:31,120
Speaker 1: creators of anything that comes beyond us. It's all in

1121
01:02:31,160 --> 01:02:34,360
Speaker 1: our bodies. Were born with everything about the future all

1122
01:02:34,440 --> 01:02:36,640
Speaker 1: in our bodies, So we have to believe that's also

1123
01:02:36,640 --> 01:02:40,200
Speaker 1: true for our ideas. Yeah, it's all the same stuff.

1124
01:02:40,400 --> 01:02:43,640
Speaker 1: It's all energy. That's a whole another chapter. Look, you've

1125
01:02:43,640 --> 01:02:48,040
Speaker 1: been flexing your imagination. You've been not just facilitating people

1126
01:02:48,040 --> 01:02:50,840
Speaker 1: bringing out their short stories and fictional stories, but writing

1127
01:02:50,880 --> 01:02:53,400
Speaker 1: your own your latest book and from the Emergence series

1128
01:02:53,720 --> 01:02:58,080
Speaker 1: Fables and Spells Collected and new short fiction and poetry.

1129
01:02:58,120 --> 01:03:01,000
Speaker 1: What are you hoping to emphasize is with this collection

1130
01:03:01,120 --> 01:03:05,680
Speaker 1: of loved as well as new works. Ah well, I

1131
01:03:05,680 --> 01:03:08,360
Speaker 1: mean first, it was the most fun book that I've

1132
01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:11,920
Speaker 1: pulled together. Um, I really let myself like, I just

1133
01:03:11,920 --> 01:03:15,600
Speaker 1: gave myself permission to lean into my witchy, magical spell

1134
01:03:15,680 --> 01:03:19,240
Speaker 1: casting self. And you know I talked about when I've

1135
01:03:19,360 --> 01:03:21,640
Speaker 1: learned what I could do in a room, and now

1136
01:03:21,680 --> 01:03:23,560
Speaker 1: I look back and I'm like, oh, I can cast spells,

1137
01:03:23,600 --> 01:03:26,120
Speaker 1: Like I have an energy that moves through me and

1138
01:03:26,160 --> 01:03:28,200
Speaker 1: I know that I have to be responsible with it.

1139
01:03:28,440 --> 01:03:29,960
Speaker 1: And it's the same thing that happens when I write

1140
01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:31,600
Speaker 1: a story. So I'm just like, this is a spell.

1141
01:03:31,680 --> 01:03:34,800
Speaker 1: We're casting spells all the time, so fables of spells.

1142
01:03:34,840 --> 01:03:38,320
Speaker 1: I let myself write about extraterrestrials. I let myself write

1143
01:03:38,360 --> 01:03:42,120
Speaker 1: about water women and witch magic, and I wrote Spells

1144
01:03:42,160 --> 01:03:44,440
Speaker 1: to the Moon and yeah, I just was like, what

1145
01:03:44,480 --> 01:03:46,440
Speaker 1: are all the things that I'm doing to try to

1146
01:03:46,880 --> 01:03:49,600
Speaker 1: transform how I think about the world. And most of

1147
01:03:49,640 --> 01:03:52,840
Speaker 1: the stories are about people coming into their power, because

1148
01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:55,520
Speaker 1: that's what I'm very interested right now, is like how

1149
01:03:55,560 --> 01:03:58,360
Speaker 1: do we come into ourselves? Because I think when we

1150
01:03:58,400 --> 01:04:01,000
Speaker 1: come into ourselves, we necessarily come into our power. And

1151
01:04:01,000 --> 01:04:03,160
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I know who I am and

1152
01:04:03,200 --> 01:04:05,120
Speaker 1: now no one can take that from me. Like that's

1153
01:04:05,120 --> 01:04:07,800
Speaker 1: the beauty of I think aging. But I also think

1154
01:04:07,800 --> 01:04:09,560
Speaker 1: it's the beauty that babies have. Like when you meet

1155
01:04:09,560 --> 01:04:11,120
Speaker 1: a kid, they're not like, oh, what are you going

1156
01:04:11,200 --> 01:04:13,280
Speaker 1: to think about me? They're like, you think I'm awesome?

1157
01:04:13,440 --> 01:04:15,400
Speaker 1: And I just pooped all over the place. And like,

1158
01:04:15,720 --> 01:04:20,400
Speaker 1: I'm the cutest person to the fullest, so true to themselves.

1159
01:04:20,400 --> 01:04:22,160
Speaker 1: I'm like, how do we return to that that. I'm like,

1160
01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:25,760
Speaker 1: even coming to this podcast with you, I'm like, let

1161
01:04:25,840 --> 01:04:28,600
Speaker 1: me not assume that bartun days trying to catch me

1162
01:04:28,640 --> 01:04:30,240
Speaker 1: in something or you know. I was like, let me

1163
01:04:30,280 --> 01:04:32,640
Speaker 1: assume that I can just be myself and you're going

1164
01:04:32,720 --> 01:04:35,520
Speaker 1: to meet me by being yourself and magic will happen,

1165
01:04:35,600 --> 01:04:38,360
Speaker 1: because that's what happens when humans are actually being themselves,

1166
01:04:38,560 --> 01:04:41,200
Speaker 1: you know. So the book is basically one story after

1167
01:04:41,320 --> 01:04:44,600
Speaker 1: another of that, you know, moments of people claiming a

1168
01:04:44,600 --> 01:04:48,080
Speaker 1: little bit more of themselves and their power. And I

1169
01:04:48,160 --> 01:04:51,400
Speaker 1: created an entire extraterrestial species, says Virgos. So I hope

1170
01:04:51,400 --> 01:04:54,640
Speaker 1: that you that I'm starting with that story. I'm jumping

1171
01:04:54,760 --> 01:04:59,760
Speaker 1: right to that one non linear story consumption. Yeah, I

1172
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:02,000
Speaker 1: really like non linear books too. I'm like, please put

1173
01:05:02,000 --> 01:05:04,320
Speaker 1: this in your bathroom and just open up to whatever

1174
01:05:04,360 --> 01:05:11,240
Speaker 1: pages right for you at that moment. Jump around. So, um,

1175
01:05:11,360 --> 01:05:14,240
Speaker 1: we ask all of our guests, if you were to

1176
01:05:14,360 --> 01:05:18,400
Speaker 1: define citizen not as a legalistic noun but as a verb,

1177
01:05:19,200 --> 01:05:22,840
Speaker 1: what does it mean to citizen? How would you interpret

1178
01:05:22,880 --> 01:05:26,240
Speaker 1: that to me? To citizen means to take responsibility for

1179
01:05:26,280 --> 01:05:28,400
Speaker 1: the fact that I'm part of something larger than myself

1180
01:05:29,160 --> 01:05:33,160
Speaker 1: and to be a contribution of life moving towards life

1181
01:05:33,680 --> 01:05:38,000
Speaker 1: in whatever structures I'm a part of. Mm hmm, thank you,

1182
01:05:38,560 --> 01:05:42,160
Speaker 1: thank you. We have reached that moment in our show

1183
01:05:42,200 --> 01:05:47,080
Speaker 1: where we bring the people into the fray. So first up,

1184
01:05:47,280 --> 01:05:54,600
Speaker 1: Alison Mosqueta. Hi, Alison, I'm Alison Mosqueta. I'm here in Denver,

1185
01:05:54,720 --> 01:06:00,120
Speaker 1: Colorado and cerious about how do we citizen in fun ways?

1186
01:06:00,560 --> 01:06:05,840
Speaker 1: So how to citizen has really stretched my thinking about

1187
01:06:05,840 --> 01:06:09,080
Speaker 1: our collective responsibility as a member of society and ways

1188
01:06:09,120 --> 01:06:15,000
Speaker 1: that I was never taught, especially around policy, government, democracy.

1189
01:06:15,280 --> 01:06:18,400
Speaker 1: Um never learned any of those things growing up in school, right,

1190
01:06:18,560 --> 01:06:21,400
Speaker 1: never learned exactly what it means to be involved and

1191
01:06:21,480 --> 01:06:25,760
Speaker 1: engaged and be a democracy. So how do we do

1192
01:06:25,800 --> 01:06:29,080
Speaker 1: that in fun ways that are exciting and energizing, especially

1193
01:06:29,080 --> 01:06:32,280
Speaker 1: maybe in private sectors like nonprofits in my own community.

1194
01:06:32,760 --> 01:06:35,680
Speaker 1: It's really exciting to think about if we do this

1195
01:06:35,800 --> 01:06:38,919
Speaker 1: now and we start instilling this in younger and younger generations,

1196
01:06:39,640 --> 01:06:42,680
Speaker 1: what is the next thing going to look like? Right? Yeah,

1197
01:06:42,880 --> 01:06:45,560
Speaker 1: So you know the thing that comes to me is

1198
01:06:45,600 --> 01:06:47,800
Speaker 1: like you have to stay in touch with the part

1199
01:06:47,800 --> 01:06:49,840
Speaker 1: of you that knows how to have fun, which I

1200
01:06:49,840 --> 01:06:53,200
Speaker 1: think is one of the things that often we accidentally

1201
01:06:53,200 --> 01:06:55,640
Speaker 1: set down when we become an organizer because I must

1202
01:06:55,680 --> 01:06:58,919
Speaker 1: save the world and I must be so serious. So

1203
01:06:59,200 --> 01:07:01,440
Speaker 1: part of it is just apping back authentically into the

1204
01:07:01,480 --> 01:07:03,040
Speaker 1: part of you that knows how to have fun. But

1205
01:07:03,160 --> 01:07:05,000
Speaker 1: I have to tell you, when you first said the question,

1206
01:07:05,040 --> 01:07:08,200
Speaker 1: I heard fund raise and I was like, um, that's

1207
01:07:08,200 --> 01:07:11,520
Speaker 1: a whole another podcast, but fun ways, I'm like, yeah,

1208
01:07:11,680 --> 01:07:14,280
Speaker 1: I think most of it is what actually brings you joy.

1209
01:07:14,640 --> 01:07:17,480
Speaker 1: So recently I've been building out this project that's a

1210
01:07:17,560 --> 01:07:20,720
Speaker 1: musical ritual and it's because I like singing in groups

1211
01:07:20,720 --> 01:07:24,160
Speaker 1: with people. And I remember I've been like, oh, yeah,

1212
01:07:24,240 --> 01:07:25,680
Speaker 1: I used to love being in a choir when I

1213
01:07:25,720 --> 01:07:28,400
Speaker 1: was a kid, like coming together and singing, like just

1214
01:07:28,440 --> 01:07:30,400
Speaker 1: everyone's sitting down the house and have a good time.

1215
01:07:30,920 --> 01:07:34,440
Speaker 1: Not because you're trying to sound the most beautiful are perfect,

1216
01:07:34,800 --> 01:07:37,840
Speaker 1: but the singing with is the thing, right, And we

1217
01:07:37,840 --> 01:07:39,840
Speaker 1: always talk about preaching to the choir, but I'm like

1218
01:07:39,920 --> 01:07:42,640
Speaker 1: the choir these reminders on how to be a choir,

1219
01:07:42,960 --> 01:07:45,560
Speaker 1: like how do we harmonize, how do we find the

1220
01:07:45,640 --> 01:07:47,320
Speaker 1: right volume so that we can all be heard and

1221
01:07:47,640 --> 01:07:50,520
Speaker 1: make something larger than ourselves. So for me, that's a

1222
01:07:50,560 --> 01:07:53,080
Speaker 1: super fun way to have people come together and do

1223
01:07:53,440 --> 01:07:57,080
Speaker 1: what could be important serious work also, but it's doing

1224
01:07:57,120 --> 01:07:59,760
Speaker 1: it in a way that's really enjoyable. I also find

1225
01:08:00,120 --> 01:08:04,200
Speaker 1: adding celebration, like doses of celebration into any community is

1226
01:08:04,240 --> 01:08:07,840
Speaker 1: really helpful. So it's your birthday, Like, let's take a

1227
01:08:07,960 --> 01:08:11,400
Speaker 1: moment and actually celebrate that you just got a divorce. Yay,

1228
01:08:11,440 --> 01:08:14,280
Speaker 1: I'm sure it was the right decision. You know, something

1229
01:08:14,320 --> 01:08:16,960
Speaker 1: happened with your kid, You've got a new degree. Like

1230
01:08:17,040 --> 01:08:19,840
Speaker 1: taking the time to celebrate each other in community because

1231
01:08:20,479 --> 01:08:23,040
Speaker 1: and then also celebrate the small winds. You know. Back

1232
01:08:23,080 --> 01:08:24,800
Speaker 1: when I was a facilitator, I always lift this up

1233
01:08:24,840 --> 01:08:26,559
Speaker 1: because I'm like, this is so funny to me. But

1234
01:08:26,600 --> 01:08:28,120
Speaker 1: I had a group that was like they could not

1235
01:08:28,200 --> 01:08:31,280
Speaker 1: make a decision, Like they just could not make a

1236
01:08:31,280 --> 01:08:33,280
Speaker 1: decision together. It was like, we're how we're gonna save

1237
01:08:33,320 --> 01:08:35,240
Speaker 1: the world. We can't even And we figured out how

1238
01:08:35,240 --> 01:08:38,640
Speaker 1: to order lunch together, and I was like, you know

1239
01:08:38,640 --> 01:08:40,240
Speaker 1: what we wanna do is gonna pause and we're gonna

1240
01:08:40,240 --> 01:08:42,880
Speaker 1: put on Mary J. Blige we're gonna just sing. You know.

1241
01:08:43,000 --> 01:08:47,680
Speaker 1: Adding music into anything I think improves the fun capacity

1242
01:08:47,680 --> 01:08:49,920
Speaker 1: of it. And then I think having fun that's not

1243
01:08:50,040 --> 01:08:53,840
Speaker 1: tied to transaction, so really being like, oh, we have

1244
01:08:53,920 --> 01:08:56,280
Speaker 1: bowling nights that are not about trying to raise money.

1245
01:08:56,320 --> 01:08:59,400
Speaker 1: We have movie nights. You know. There's a group here

1246
01:08:59,400 --> 01:09:02,200
Speaker 1: in um North Carolina in Durham where I live called

1247
01:09:02,240 --> 01:09:04,679
Speaker 1: Spirit House, and like every time a big black movie

1248
01:09:04,720 --> 01:09:06,040
Speaker 1: comes out there, just like we rented out of the

1249
01:09:06,000 --> 01:09:09,519
Speaker 1: theater and we just go and we're like Wakonda forever,

1250
01:09:09,680 --> 01:09:12,439
Speaker 1: Like it's all of us. We have shared values. Everyone's

1251
01:09:12,479 --> 01:09:14,040
Speaker 1: wearing a mask. We don't have to worry about all

1252
01:09:14,080 --> 01:09:16,400
Speaker 1: this stuff, and we can just enjoy each other and

1253
01:09:16,400 --> 01:09:19,960
Speaker 1: there's no organized component to it. It's really being together.

1254
01:09:20,560 --> 01:09:23,760
Speaker 1: So to me, that part of being with your community

1255
01:09:24,040 --> 01:09:28,400
Speaker 1: is super important because that's what actually forms the connective

1256
01:09:28,400 --> 01:09:30,760
Speaker 1: tissue that makes you even want to act as a community.

1257
01:09:30,960 --> 01:09:34,200
Speaker 1: Team building. Yeah, in a fun way. Thank you all right,

1258
01:09:34,280 --> 01:09:38,240
Speaker 1: Next up, we have we've heard this name once already.

1259
01:09:38,400 --> 01:09:44,599
Speaker 1: Please welcome to the stage. I had to do my

1260
01:09:44,600 --> 01:09:47,000
Speaker 1: my live event MC voice for this one. I love

1261
01:09:47,040 --> 01:09:49,559
Speaker 1: the way you did that. That was so exciting. My

1262
01:09:49,680 --> 01:09:56,559
Speaker 1: name in silly. What's up everybody? Hi? And Marie Brown? Hi.

1263
01:09:56,840 --> 01:10:02,280
Speaker 1: My question is everyone from the Boys to Marry m

1264
01:10:02,360 --> 01:10:07,200
Speaker 1: Kaba that has attended to black liberation and had like

1265
01:10:07,280 --> 01:10:10,160
Speaker 1: a home and the politics of it found the need

1266
01:10:10,240 --> 01:10:13,960
Speaker 1: to go to the culture and the arts of it. Everyone.

1267
01:10:14,280 --> 01:10:16,240
Speaker 1: So I want you to talk to us about what

1268
01:10:16,360 --> 01:10:19,519
Speaker 1: that's looking like for you. Because I heard that you're

1269
01:10:19,560 --> 01:10:24,919
Speaker 1: making music. Now I heard Oh, I love this question.

1270
01:10:25,600 --> 01:10:28,080
Speaker 1: One thing is I think that there's a huge overlap

1271
01:10:28,160 --> 01:10:31,400
Speaker 1: between the poetic force within us and the part of

1272
01:10:31,479 --> 01:10:33,600
Speaker 1: us that wants to save the world. A lot of

1273
01:10:33,640 --> 01:10:35,920
Speaker 1: people who I meet who are like, I love the earth,

1274
01:10:36,000 --> 01:10:38,599
Speaker 1: I love the world, I love humans. It's because we're

1275
01:10:38,600 --> 01:10:41,479
Speaker 1: paying attention to what's beautiful, and we're paying attention to

1276
01:10:41,520 --> 01:10:45,000
Speaker 1: what hurts. We're empathetic, we're letting it in. I meet

1277
01:10:45,120 --> 01:10:47,840
Speaker 1: so many people who are organizers, are activists, and then

1278
01:10:47,880 --> 01:10:50,000
Speaker 1: like one step under that, they're like, I'm a poet,

1279
01:10:50,040 --> 01:10:51,840
Speaker 1: I'm a singer, I'm a writer, I'm a rapper, I'm

1280
01:10:51,840 --> 01:10:56,880
Speaker 1: writing plays, and I imagine a future often where one

1281
01:10:56,880 --> 01:10:58,519
Speaker 1: of the ways we know that we've healed from a

1282
01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:01,519
Speaker 1: lot of these oppressive tendencies that we're actually spending most

1283
01:11:01,560 --> 01:11:04,400
Speaker 1: of our time making and sharing art. But I also

1284
01:11:04,560 --> 01:11:07,000
Speaker 1: love what happens when people are able to just drop

1285
01:11:07,040 --> 01:11:09,920
Speaker 1: into the cultural space. And I've been allowing that for myself.

1286
01:11:10,000 --> 01:11:13,680
Speaker 1: So I have an album coming out that's related to

1287
01:11:13,720 --> 01:11:16,320
Speaker 1: the Fables and spells work. It's all like spell songs

1288
01:11:16,400 --> 01:11:18,960
Speaker 1: and songs that feel like magic to me. And then

1289
01:11:19,000 --> 01:11:21,679
Speaker 1: I just did this huge music ritual that I'm work

1290
01:11:21,720 --> 01:11:24,920
Speaker 1: shopping and taking around the country to be like, can

1291
01:11:25,000 --> 01:11:28,479
Speaker 1: we create a portal into the future through songs that

1292
01:11:28,520 --> 01:11:31,200
Speaker 1: we sing in choir in chorus together, and can we

1293
01:11:31,200 --> 01:11:35,160
Speaker 1: create a space and opening for ourselves through music? And

1294
01:11:35,760 --> 01:11:40,560
Speaker 1: I think the reason that there's this direct pathway from

1295
01:11:40,600 --> 01:11:43,000
Speaker 1: trying to change the world too into that culture space

1296
01:11:43,080 --> 01:11:46,080
Speaker 1: is that eventually you recognize that what we're trying to

1297
01:11:46,120 --> 01:11:49,519
Speaker 1: shift is culture. Is we're trying to change the culture

1298
01:11:49,600 --> 01:11:52,280
Speaker 1: through which people see themselves as a part of this

1299
01:11:52,400 --> 01:11:54,559
Speaker 1: whole you know, Audrey Lord said that we don't live

1300
01:11:54,560 --> 01:11:58,439
Speaker 1: compartmentalized lives, right, We don't live in these little silos

1301
01:11:58,479 --> 01:12:01,240
Speaker 1: apart from ourselves. We are whole us. We are whole people.

1302
01:12:01,840 --> 01:12:03,680
Speaker 1: And I think what we want to invite into the

1303
01:12:03,720 --> 01:12:06,240
Speaker 1: public sphere more and more often is spaces where people

1304
01:12:06,280 --> 01:12:09,280
Speaker 1: can come together and be whole. And when I'm singing

1305
01:12:09,280 --> 01:12:13,760
Speaker 1: a song, my political self is there, and my insecure

1306
01:12:13,840 --> 01:12:16,880
Speaker 1: self is there, and my little girl who knows I'm

1307
01:12:16,920 --> 01:12:20,000
Speaker 1: the ship is there, and my grown up who has

1308
01:12:20,240 --> 01:12:24,519
Speaker 1: pain and heartbreak is all there. And I'm only interested

1309
01:12:24,520 --> 01:12:26,160
Speaker 1: in being with people when all of us can all

1310
01:12:26,200 --> 01:12:29,080
Speaker 1: be there, right, And the cultural space for me is

1311
01:12:29,080 --> 01:12:32,880
Speaker 1: where that opens up. And it has been amazing to

1312
01:12:32,960 --> 01:12:36,280
Speaker 1: look around and see so many of my comrades also

1313
01:12:36,360 --> 01:12:39,200
Speaker 1: doing this. So I look over and I'm like Charlenne Carruthers,

1314
01:12:39,240 --> 01:12:40,800
Speaker 1: who is part of the YP one hundred for a

1315
01:12:40,880 --> 01:12:44,280
Speaker 1: long time, has made a film, and Patris Colors is

1316
01:12:44,320 --> 01:12:47,960
Speaker 1: doing all these arts installations, and I know so many

1317
01:12:47,960 --> 01:12:50,880
Speaker 1: people who are writing books, writing fiction who are like

1318
01:12:51,080 --> 01:12:53,240
Speaker 1: Toronto Burke is like, I've got fiction out ahead of me,

1319
01:12:53,600 --> 01:12:56,680
Speaker 1: like right, because we're imagining the new world. These are

1320
01:12:56,720 --> 01:12:58,839
Speaker 1: all people who have spent a ton of time imagining

1321
01:12:58,880 --> 01:13:00,960
Speaker 1: the world and now we're trying to find ways to

1322
01:13:01,000 --> 01:13:05,120
Speaker 1: share it with everyone. And yeah, I will say it's thrilling,

1323
01:13:05,320 --> 01:13:08,920
Speaker 1: Like I'm still vibrating off of the musical portal that

1324
01:13:08,960 --> 01:13:12,880
Speaker 1: got opened on Saturday in New York and for me,

1325
01:13:13,000 --> 01:13:15,040
Speaker 1: as someone who people are like they look at and

1326
01:13:15,080 --> 01:13:18,400
Speaker 1: be like, oh, you know things, you're so wise. It

1327
01:13:18,520 --> 01:13:20,400
Speaker 1: was so incredible to get to come into something and

1328
01:13:20,439 --> 01:13:23,719
Speaker 1: be like, I'm also a part of the choir, so

1329
01:13:23,960 --> 01:13:27,240
Speaker 1: I can sing with my own solitary voice. But what

1330
01:13:27,479 --> 01:13:30,280
Speaker 1: makes me feel the most alive is when I'm singing

1331
01:13:30,720 --> 01:13:34,080
Speaker 1: with four people in a circle and we're catching each

1332
01:13:34,120 --> 01:13:36,559
Speaker 1: other and we're vibing off of each other, and like

1333
01:13:36,880 --> 01:13:39,559
Speaker 1: we remember that we're bigger than just our solitary selves.

1334
01:13:39,600 --> 01:13:42,920
Speaker 1: It's very healing. It is. You've reminded me of a

1335
01:13:42,960 --> 01:13:47,160
Speaker 1: middle school experience singing in a school production with a

1336
01:13:47,200 --> 01:13:49,639
Speaker 1: bunch of other black kids that was mostly white school

1337
01:13:49,640 --> 01:13:51,840
Speaker 1: and white kids were singing with us too. Was doing

1338
01:13:51,880 --> 01:13:54,280
Speaker 1: some kind of gospel song. I'm not even Christian like that,

1339
01:13:54,360 --> 01:13:57,719
Speaker 1: but the song was so moving and were like thugs

1340
01:13:57,760 --> 01:14:00,960
Speaker 1: were happy, you know what I mean, Like, that's that's

1341
01:14:01,240 --> 01:14:05,200
Speaker 1: listen okay, because there's something universal that taps you into yourself.

1342
01:14:05,240 --> 01:14:08,200
Speaker 1: And I will say the music, the musical ritual is

1343
01:14:08,240 --> 01:14:12,400
Speaker 1: basically taking the technology of gospel music and interacting it

1344
01:14:12,439 --> 01:14:15,519
Speaker 1: with the ideas of emergence, strategy and pleasure activism and

1345
01:14:15,680 --> 01:14:19,920
Speaker 1: transformative justice. So it's absolutely unlocking that place. Like people

1346
01:14:19,920 --> 01:14:22,320
Speaker 1: come in there like oh hold up, I don't know

1347
01:14:22,360 --> 01:14:24,120
Speaker 1: if we could do this, and it was like, yeah,

1348
01:14:24,240 --> 01:14:27,120
Speaker 1: we can feel really really really excellent together, and like

1349
01:14:27,240 --> 01:14:30,400
Speaker 1: that's medicine we need. It's getting to that under level

1350
01:14:30,600 --> 01:14:34,120
Speaker 1: that you talked about earlier. It bypasses. Yeah, I had

1351
01:14:34,120 --> 01:14:37,160
Speaker 1: people crying. I can't imagine you may compeople. I love

1352
01:14:37,240 --> 01:14:40,479
Speaker 1: is having people like being able to grieve together, because

1353
01:14:40,520 --> 01:14:43,160
Speaker 1: I do think in this period of history, we have

1354
01:14:43,280 --> 01:14:45,960
Speaker 1: so much to grieve and so few places to actually

1355
01:14:46,000 --> 01:14:49,720
Speaker 1: let that grief come through, and we need these collective

1356
01:14:49,760 --> 01:14:52,400
Speaker 1: spaces where we can actually let the grief come through

1357
01:14:52,800 --> 01:14:54,760
Speaker 1: because it also helps us figure out what we can do.

1358
01:14:55,160 --> 01:14:57,000
Speaker 1: Like the world we're going to build is one that

1359
01:14:57,080 --> 01:14:58,559
Speaker 1: is built from our grief as much as it is

1360
01:14:58,560 --> 01:15:02,640
Speaker 1: built from our visions. It's like what am I done losing?

1361
01:15:02,800 --> 01:15:04,960
Speaker 1: And what am I accepting? And what am I dreaming?

1362
01:15:05,080 --> 01:15:10,320
Speaker 1: So all right, we have Carol Wombledorff. You will correct me, Carol,

1363
01:15:10,400 --> 01:15:12,720
Speaker 1: you will say your name and where you're at and

1364
01:15:12,760 --> 01:15:17,080
Speaker 1: get to your question. Hi, Carol Wommeldorf. Is that German?

1365
01:15:17,640 --> 01:15:19,960
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, I was raised. I was. I grew

1366
01:15:20,000 --> 01:15:22,639
Speaker 1: up in Germany, Like half of my childhood was in Germany.

1367
01:15:22,640 --> 01:15:24,400
Speaker 1: You know, there's an S between the L and the

1368
01:15:24,520 --> 01:15:28,439
Speaker 1: D if you're in Germany. So, um, how do you

1369
01:15:28,520 --> 01:15:32,920
Speaker 1: respond to folks who say voting is irrelevant and rigged?

1370
01:15:33,120 --> 01:15:35,519
Speaker 1: And I mean, it's such a mundane but it's a

1371
01:15:35,600 --> 01:15:38,120
Speaker 1: real day to day kind of question when you want

1372
01:15:38,160 --> 01:15:41,439
Speaker 1: to help people understand that it is rigged and it's

1373
01:15:41,479 --> 01:15:45,360
Speaker 1: still matters. That's right, that's beautiful, Carol. Where are you

1374
01:15:45,400 --> 01:15:50,680
Speaker 1: geographically before when makes Cincinnati, Ohio? We're really batters? Yeah, okay,

1375
01:15:50,800 --> 01:15:54,040
Speaker 1: well I hear that all the time. I think it's

1376
01:15:54,040 --> 01:15:55,720
Speaker 1: a little bit of a both end. Like I never

1377
01:15:55,760 --> 01:15:57,639
Speaker 1: tried to take that away from people. I'm like, you're

1378
01:15:57,760 --> 01:16:02,679
Speaker 1: very smart, you're not wrong. Is rigged and it is unfair,

1379
01:16:03,080 --> 01:16:05,880
Speaker 1: and it still matters. I think of it as the

1380
01:16:05,920 --> 01:16:09,840
Speaker 1: harm reduction strategy for this period of history, as we're

1381
01:16:09,960 --> 01:16:13,040
Speaker 1: in the shift, so harm reduction for those who may

1382
01:16:13,120 --> 01:16:14,679
Speaker 1: or may not be aware of it. As the idea

1383
01:16:14,840 --> 01:16:17,240
Speaker 1: with drug users that you're like, you might not be

1384
01:16:17,280 --> 01:16:18,760
Speaker 1: able to make it all the way to abstinence, you

1385
01:16:18,760 --> 01:16:21,320
Speaker 1: may not be able to live a sober life. But

1386
01:16:21,520 --> 01:16:24,120
Speaker 1: you can reduce the harms that come from your drug use,

1387
01:16:24,280 --> 01:16:26,360
Speaker 1: and you can reduce the harms in ways that make

1388
01:16:26,400 --> 01:16:28,200
Speaker 1: sure you still have a home and you still have

1389
01:16:28,200 --> 01:16:30,959
Speaker 1: access to your kids, that you still have the maximum

1390
01:16:30,960 --> 01:16:34,160
Speaker 1: health in your body, and you can learn to trust

1391
01:16:34,160 --> 01:16:37,320
Speaker 1: yourself without judgment and be in that So I approach

1392
01:16:37,439 --> 01:16:40,120
Speaker 1: voting that way where I'm like, if we're going to

1393
01:16:40,160 --> 01:16:43,720
Speaker 1: get to a different way of doing nation state, if

1394
01:16:43,720 --> 01:16:45,519
Speaker 1: we're going to get to a practice where we do

1395
01:16:45,640 --> 01:16:49,719
Speaker 1: have multiple viable parties, for instance, that give us actual

1396
01:16:49,760 --> 01:16:53,240
Speaker 1: options to express ourselves politically, we won't get there by

1397
01:16:53,240 --> 01:16:57,519
Speaker 1: fully giving up on participating in the current system. And

1398
01:16:57,880 --> 01:17:00,680
Speaker 1: I actually encourage people when they say, I'm like, you

1399
01:17:00,720 --> 01:17:03,280
Speaker 1: probably actually need to be voting more rather than not

1400
01:17:03,400 --> 01:17:06,519
Speaker 1: voting at all, because a lot of times people say

1401
01:17:06,520 --> 01:17:09,200
Speaker 1: that around the national elections and they're upset because we

1402
01:17:09,280 --> 01:17:11,759
Speaker 1: only have a two party system and it's a party

1403
01:17:11,760 --> 01:17:14,920
Speaker 1: that is like central and right, like we don't really

1404
01:17:14,960 --> 01:17:19,960
Speaker 1: have a strong left at the national level, and I

1405
01:17:20,000 --> 01:17:22,479
Speaker 1: mean from a movement perspective, right, I'm like, my dad

1406
01:17:22,479 --> 01:17:26,000
Speaker 1: would argue differently, but I feel like when I hear that,

1407
01:17:26,040 --> 01:17:28,719
Speaker 1: I'm like, yes, And the reason that exists is because

1408
01:17:28,760 --> 01:17:32,559
Speaker 1: we're not necessarily engaging in the electoral process at our

1409
01:17:32,640 --> 01:17:36,080
Speaker 1: local level. That feeds up into what's possible at the

1410
01:17:36,160 --> 01:17:38,960
Speaker 1: national level or was possible at the state level. Right,

1411
01:17:38,960 --> 01:17:42,559
Speaker 1: it's all fractals. Elections are a very fractal process. Like

1412
01:17:42,640 --> 01:17:46,960
Speaker 1: what happens at any federal or national level is only

1413
01:17:46,960 --> 01:17:49,120
Speaker 1: possible because it was happening at all the local levels.

1414
01:17:49,439 --> 01:17:51,400
Speaker 1: And part of why I moved to Durham was because

1415
01:17:51,439 --> 01:17:54,160
Speaker 1: I was like, very excited about what's happening at the

1416
01:17:54,240 --> 01:17:57,479
Speaker 1: local political level here. I had a friend who was

1417
01:17:57,520 --> 01:18:00,719
Speaker 1: a black trans person who was elected to school board.

1418
01:18:00,760 --> 01:18:02,679
Speaker 1: I have someone else who I met who was elected

1419
01:18:02,720 --> 01:18:04,960
Speaker 1: as the d A. I met all these folks who

1420
01:18:05,000 --> 01:18:08,360
Speaker 1: I'm like, getting themselves into the city council, getting this

1421
01:18:08,720 --> 01:18:11,280
Speaker 1: like being like, actually, we're going to grow our political

1422
01:18:11,320 --> 01:18:15,360
Speaker 1: power up right. And it's only by that growing up

1423
01:18:15,360 --> 01:18:18,879
Speaker 1: that you see things like oh, Georgia having a blue election,

1424
01:18:19,160 --> 01:18:21,040
Speaker 1: things where you're like, that's not ever going to happen.

1425
01:18:21,080 --> 01:18:23,680
Speaker 1: It happens because someone like Stacy Abrams is like, I'm

1426
01:18:23,680 --> 01:18:28,080
Speaker 1: going to take the local electoral process seriously as seriously

1427
01:18:28,080 --> 01:18:30,639
Speaker 1: as anything is happening on the national, federal level. So

1428
01:18:31,240 --> 01:18:34,120
Speaker 1: that's often the response I give, and I say, if

1429
01:18:34,120 --> 01:18:35,720
Speaker 1: you can't figure it out for yourself, do it for

1430
01:18:35,760 --> 01:18:37,960
Speaker 1: someone else, And like, I love to keep some of

1431
01:18:37,960 --> 01:18:39,479
Speaker 1: those in my back pocket. I'm like, there are a

1432
01:18:39,520 --> 01:18:41,599
Speaker 1: lot of people who don't have the right to vote

1433
01:18:41,760 --> 01:18:45,240
Speaker 1: who are going to be negatively impacted by what feel

1434
01:18:45,240 --> 01:18:47,839
Speaker 1: like small scale differences, like there's no difference between the parties,

1435
01:18:48,080 --> 01:18:50,840
Speaker 1: And I'm like, that's because you're not a citizen. If

1436
01:18:50,840 --> 01:18:52,960
Speaker 1: there's no difference between the parties, that's because you're not

1437
01:18:53,080 --> 01:18:55,800
Speaker 1: reliant on medication for your well being. If you don't

1438
01:18:55,800 --> 01:18:57,840
Speaker 1: see a difference between the parties, Like, there are places

1439
01:18:57,840 --> 01:18:59,920
Speaker 1: where there are distinct differences. This is one of my

1440
01:19:00,000 --> 01:19:02,800
Speaker 1: everything I've been saying lately. There's also a lot of

1441
01:19:02,840 --> 01:19:06,719
Speaker 1: fake orgasmic policies. So there's a lot of policies they're

1442
01:19:06,760 --> 01:19:09,960
Speaker 1: not actually the thing we want, they won't actually satisfy us,

1443
01:19:10,360 --> 01:19:13,800
Speaker 1: but we're being given the fake orgasm version of it

1444
01:19:14,040 --> 01:19:15,960
Speaker 1: right where it's like this kind of sounds like it's

1445
01:19:15,960 --> 01:19:19,560
Speaker 1: moving us towards climate something good. Right, we have to

1446
01:19:19,560 --> 01:19:21,519
Speaker 1: actually be engaged to be able to make the distinction

1447
01:19:21,520 --> 01:19:24,000
Speaker 1: and be like, no, I'm not satisfied by that, and

1448
01:19:24,000 --> 01:19:27,280
Speaker 1: we're going to build policy that actually is effective and

1449
01:19:27,400 --> 01:19:30,160
Speaker 1: satisfying for our future. And we're going to build that

1450
01:19:30,280 --> 01:19:32,360
Speaker 1: up right. That's the other thing people often don't realize

1451
01:19:32,360 --> 01:19:35,719
Speaker 1: is that policy builds up right. Being able to enact

1452
01:19:35,800 --> 01:19:38,160
Speaker 1: a good policy at the federal level is because good

1453
01:19:38,160 --> 01:19:41,559
Speaker 1: policy has been built at the local level. Adrian Marie

1454
01:19:41,600 --> 01:19:47,080
Speaker 1: Brown advocate for real orgasmic policies, real orgasmic policy, true

1455
01:19:47,160 --> 01:19:52,760
Speaker 1: satisfaction in our small D democratic lives. That's the only

1456
01:19:52,760 --> 01:19:58,400
Speaker 1: small D that needs to be there. That I was

1457
01:19:58,400 --> 01:19:59,960
Speaker 1: going to ask if you have anything else to add,

1458
01:20:00,040 --> 01:20:03,720
Speaker 1: I think you just did. Is there anything else you

1459
01:20:03,760 --> 01:20:05,960
Speaker 1: want to say? I mean, I have this book out,

1460
01:20:05,960 --> 01:20:08,679
Speaker 1: Fables and Spells. Please get it from a K Press directly.

1461
01:20:09,200 --> 01:20:11,720
Speaker 1: I put a single out called Ancestors Use Me so

1462
01:20:11,760 --> 01:20:14,520
Speaker 1: you can hear me sing to you about the ancestors.

1463
01:20:15,080 --> 01:20:18,280
Speaker 1: And if you're interested in bringing the musical ritual to you,

1464
01:20:18,280 --> 01:20:20,920
Speaker 1: you can reach out through the website and we'll find

1465
01:20:20,920 --> 01:20:22,479
Speaker 1: a way to come to you because it's it's an

1466
01:20:22,479 --> 01:20:26,640
Speaker 1: in person healing experience and bar tun Day. Thank you

1467
01:20:26,680 --> 01:20:28,720
Speaker 1: for finding me, Thank you for hunting me down and

1468
01:20:28,880 --> 01:20:32,080
Speaker 1: opening this portal. I'm excited for our Virgo friendship to

1469
01:20:32,120 --> 01:20:36,200
Speaker 1: begin and and continue. So I echo all of that,

1470
01:20:36,400 --> 01:20:39,719
Speaker 1: I fractal that back to you. Thank you for giving

1471
01:20:39,800 --> 01:20:45,639
Speaker 1: us ways to grow up yeah, and to be, you know, inside,

1472
01:20:45,640 --> 01:20:47,760
Speaker 1: the way we want to be outside, recognizing they're all

1473
01:20:47,800 --> 01:20:51,920
Speaker 1: the same thing. So appreciate what you've done and how

1474
01:20:51,960 --> 01:20:54,320
Speaker 1: transparent you've been in your own growth. Thank you, Thank you,

1475
01:20:54,360 --> 01:21:04,720
Speaker 1: thank you, bye y'all. By Marie Brown by There is

1476
01:21:04,800 --> 01:21:07,800
Speaker 1: so much that we think we have to do to

1477
01:21:07,960 --> 01:21:11,920
Speaker 1: preserve and extend our democracy. We have to register people

1478
01:21:11,920 --> 01:21:15,840
Speaker 1: to vote and in gerrymandering, and get money out of politics,

1479
01:21:15,920 --> 01:21:19,479
Speaker 1: and expand the Supreme Court and end white supremacy and

1480
01:21:19,680 --> 01:21:23,960
Speaker 1: in the patriarchy. And it is just a giant task list.

1481
01:21:24,840 --> 01:21:28,799
Speaker 1: What Adrian Marie Brown reminds us of through Emergent Strategy

1482
01:21:28,800 --> 01:21:32,439
Speaker 1: in particular, is that what we need to do is

1483
01:21:32,479 --> 01:21:37,960
Speaker 1: be together. We need to practice being together, humanizing each other,

1484
01:21:38,200 --> 01:21:43,479
Speaker 1: being in right relationship, working towards having generative conflict with

1485
01:21:43,520 --> 01:21:48,120
Speaker 1: each other, and through that let the resurgence, the expansion,

1486
01:21:48,160 --> 01:21:53,240
Speaker 1: the preservation of democracy emerge in order for us to

1487
01:21:53,320 --> 01:21:56,519
Speaker 1: have any chance at achieving that task list. And it's

1488
01:21:56,520 --> 01:22:00,960
Speaker 1: a worthy list. We've got to go deeper. We've got

1489
01:22:01,000 --> 01:22:04,720
Speaker 1: to till and regenerate that soil, that culture with a

1490
01:22:04,760 --> 01:22:12,560
Speaker 1: focus on our relationships. And there's something else. The Octavia

1491
01:22:12,640 --> 01:22:16,240
Speaker 1: Butler line that Adrian shared woke something up in me.

1492
01:22:17,479 --> 01:22:23,880
Speaker 1: There's nothing new under the sun, but there are new sons.

1493
01:22:24,160 --> 01:22:27,760
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. I admit that there are times when I

1494
01:22:27,800 --> 01:22:31,880
Speaker 1: have felt stuck, uninspired, and depressed about where we go

1495
01:22:32,000 --> 01:22:35,920
Speaker 1: from here, and that feeling needs to be shaken and

1496
01:22:36,040 --> 01:22:40,519
Speaker 1: jolted and released so that I can see new possibility again.

1497
01:22:40,920 --> 01:22:44,120
Speaker 1: And I think that's true for many. We are stuck

1498
01:22:44,280 --> 01:22:48,719
Speaker 1: so often when we think how do we save democracy

1499
01:22:49,000 --> 01:22:52,200
Speaker 1: because a lot of the time we limit our efforts

1500
01:22:52,240 --> 01:22:56,200
Speaker 1: to restoring the past, and the past is not necessarily

1501
01:22:56,240 --> 01:23:00,960
Speaker 1: the model. America is a long standing democracy in very

1502
01:23:00,960 --> 01:23:04,600
Speaker 1: thick quotation marks from most of its history, most of

1503
01:23:04,600 --> 01:23:08,240
Speaker 1: its people were legally not allowed to participate in most

1504
01:23:08,320 --> 01:23:12,559
Speaker 1: of the mechanics of democracy. So where we really If

1505
01:23:12,600 --> 01:23:16,240
Speaker 1: we limit our imaginations to our existing past, then we're

1506
01:23:16,240 --> 01:23:20,880
Speaker 1: limiting our future to what has already passed, And so

1507
01:23:21,479 --> 01:23:25,040
Speaker 1: invoking the words and vision of people like Octavia Butler

1508
01:23:25,560 --> 01:23:27,880
Speaker 1: can help push us beyond the bounds of what we

1509
01:23:27,960 --> 01:23:31,519
Speaker 1: already know. Over the rest of this season, we will

1510
01:23:31,560 --> 01:23:35,200
Speaker 1: push those bounds with you in this podcast. All the

1511
01:23:35,240 --> 01:23:39,320
Speaker 1: episodes that follow growth from seeds planted in this conversation

1512
01:23:41,880 --> 01:23:45,360
Speaker 1: will explore the strengths and limitations of voting within Saufa

1513
01:23:45,520 --> 01:23:49,720
Speaker 1: of the New Georgia Project will push democracy beyond elections

1514
01:23:49,760 --> 01:23:53,240
Speaker 1: in an episode focused on citizen assemblies. Will imagine bigger

1515
01:23:53,280 --> 01:23:56,719
Speaker 1: and better versions of our economy with Kate Rayworth, will

1516
01:23:56,720 --> 01:24:00,599
Speaker 1: explore how we build tech with Ruhab Benjamin, will rethink

1517
01:24:00,640 --> 01:24:03,719
Speaker 1: how we participate in and shape our communities with Christian

1518
01:24:03,800 --> 01:24:08,799
Speaker 1: Vonnazette and Alek Jang, and so much more. We can

1519
01:24:08,840 --> 01:24:12,719
Speaker 1: create a healthier culture of democracy. And all these people

1520
01:24:12,720 --> 01:24:15,320
Speaker 1: were bringing you this season, they're helping us build it.

1521
01:24:18,320 --> 01:24:23,640
Speaker 1: And now it's time for some action. Let's practice imagining.

1522
01:24:23,960 --> 01:24:27,000
Speaker 1: Imagination is a muscle that we need to exercise in

1523
01:24:27,080 --> 01:24:30,439
Speaker 1: order to envision the reality we want to create. Adrian

1524
01:24:30,520 --> 01:24:33,400
Speaker 1: reminded us of that. Today we've broken these out into

1525
01:24:33,439 --> 01:24:38,240
Speaker 1: three areas, personal reflection, getting more informed, and publicly participating.

1526
01:24:38,840 --> 01:24:43,720
Speaker 1: Now for internal personal reflection, ask yourself, what communities are

1527
01:24:43,760 --> 01:24:46,320
Speaker 1: you a part of right now? From the smallest to

1528
01:24:46,400 --> 01:24:49,799
Speaker 1: the largest the most local to the most global. Build

1529
01:24:49,840 --> 01:24:52,840
Speaker 1: that list in your mind. In which of these communities

1530
01:24:53,240 --> 01:24:57,479
Speaker 1: did you play some role in decision making and resource allocation? Now?

1531
01:24:57,520 --> 01:25:00,000
Speaker 1: Can you think of ways to bring others into those

1532
01:25:00,080 --> 01:25:03,679
Speaker 1: decisions more? In other words, can you think of ways,

1533
01:25:04,000 --> 01:25:08,000
Speaker 1: even and especially small, ways to bring more democracy to

1534
01:25:08,080 --> 01:25:11,679
Speaker 1: your existing communities? In terms of actions you can take

1535
01:25:11,720 --> 01:25:14,080
Speaker 1: to be more informed, we want to prepare you to

1536
01:25:14,200 --> 01:25:17,799
Speaker 1: flect that imagination of yours. Adrian was mentored by Chinese

1537
01:25:17,800 --> 01:25:22,599
Speaker 1: American philosopher, writer, and activists Grace Lee Boggs. Learn more

1538
01:25:22,600 --> 01:25:27,240
Speaker 1: about Bogs in the documentary American Revolutionary The Evolution of

1539
01:25:27,280 --> 01:25:31,479
Speaker 1: Grace Lee Box. It's available on Amazon, Prime, YouTube, and

1540
01:25:31,560 --> 01:25:35,000
Speaker 1: other sites for just a few dollars. Explore the power

1541
01:25:35,040 --> 01:25:38,559
Speaker 1: of fiction to affect the factual by reading Adrian's book

1542
01:25:38,640 --> 01:25:43,120
Speaker 1: Octavia's Brood, science fiction stories from social justice movements, and

1543
01:25:43,200 --> 01:25:46,400
Speaker 1: her newest book, Fables and Spells. And you should check

1544
01:25:46,439 --> 01:25:49,679
Speaker 1: out the parable series by Octavia Butler to see why

1545
01:25:49,720 --> 01:25:53,120
Speaker 1: Adrian and so many others are so obsessed with this writer.

1546
01:25:53,640 --> 01:25:56,680
Speaker 1: Don't have money, that's okay, grab a copy from your

1547
01:25:56,680 --> 01:26:02,120
Speaker 1: local library. Finally, in the realm of participation, we want

1548
01:26:02,160 --> 01:26:06,720
Speaker 1: you to practice collaborative ideation. Return to those communities you

1549
01:26:06,760 --> 01:26:12,120
Speaker 1: identified in the personal reflection. It could be your household, classroom, office, department,

1550
01:26:12,360 --> 01:26:16,479
Speaker 1: or group. Chat. Within one of these groups, have members

1551
01:26:16,520 --> 01:26:20,320
Speaker 1: identify some challenge you feel as hurting or impeding the group.

1552
01:26:21,120 --> 01:26:24,120
Speaker 1: Then ask folks to imagine what things would be like

1553
01:26:24,320 --> 01:26:28,360
Speaker 1: years out if this challenge were fully resolved. How would

1554
01:26:28,400 --> 01:26:31,599
Speaker 1: they feel, what would they be able to accomplish? Write

1555
01:26:31,600 --> 01:26:34,960
Speaker 1: this down in short form, perhaps a corny movie trailer

1556
01:26:35,080 --> 01:26:37,680
Speaker 1: to make it fun. In a world where none of

1557
01:26:37,760 --> 01:26:42,719
Speaker 1: us carry student debt, or in a world where everyone

1558
01:26:42,800 --> 01:26:45,240
Speaker 1: in this house is able to access the bathroom for

1559
01:26:45,320 --> 01:26:48,320
Speaker 1: as long as they need without preventing others from doing

1560
01:26:48,320 --> 01:26:51,479
Speaker 1: the same, You get the idea. It doesn't have to

1561
01:26:51,479 --> 01:26:54,759
Speaker 1: be super serious. The point is to try with others

1562
01:26:55,200 --> 01:26:58,160
Speaker 1: to imagine a better future. If you don't have someone

1563
01:26:58,200 --> 01:27:01,080
Speaker 1: to play with, try this by your self, but look

1564
01:27:01,120 --> 01:27:04,160
Speaker 1: for ways to share your ideation with others, maybe in

1565
01:27:04,200 --> 01:27:07,120
Speaker 1: an email to a friend or a post on social media.

1566
01:27:08,320 --> 01:27:11,439
Speaker 1: If you take any of these actions, please brag about

1567
01:27:11,479 --> 01:27:15,280
Speaker 1: it online and use the hashtag how to citizen. Also

1568
01:27:15,360 --> 01:27:19,200
Speaker 1: tag our Instagram how the citizen. I am always online

1569
01:27:19,200 --> 01:27:21,800
Speaker 1: and I really do see your messages, so send them.

1570
01:27:21,840 --> 01:27:24,960
Speaker 1: You can also visit our website, how a Citizen dot com,

1571
01:27:24,960 --> 01:27:30,320
Speaker 1: which has all of our shows, full transcripts, actions and more. Finally,

1572
01:27:30,600 --> 01:27:34,080
Speaker 1: see this episode show notes for resources, actions and more

1573
01:27:34,120 --> 01:27:37,680
Speaker 1: ways to connect How the Citizen with Barritton Day as

1574
01:27:37,720 --> 01:27:41,760
Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio Podcasts and Row Home Productions.

1575
01:27:41,760 --> 01:27:46,519
Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Me Barrittuon Day Thurston and Elizabeth Stewart.

1576
01:27:47,040 --> 01:27:50,800
Speaker 1: Our leave producer is Ali Graham, Our associate producer is

1577
01:27:50,880 --> 01:27:54,960
Speaker 1: Donia abdel Hamid. Alex Lewis is our managing producer, and

1578
01:27:55,080 --> 01:27:58,920
Speaker 1: John Myers is our executive editor. Our mixed engineer is

1579
01:27:59,000 --> 01:28:03,200
Speaker 1: Justin Burger. Original music by Andrew Eapen with additional music

1580
01:28:03,240 --> 01:28:06,439
Speaker 1: by Blue Dot Sessions. Special thanks to Joel Smith from

1581
01:28:06,479 --> 01:28:14,960
Speaker 1: my Heart Radio and Lay Labina. Next on How to Citizen,

1582
01:28:15,880 --> 01:28:19,240
Speaker 1: Adrian went deep on the power of fiction and stories.

1583
01:28:19,560 --> 01:28:22,160
Speaker 1: And for years we've all been living in a story

1584
01:28:22,240 --> 01:28:25,160
Speaker 1: that isolates us from each other and sees our only

1585
01:28:25,240 --> 01:28:28,720
Speaker 1: power as that of a consumer. But in our next episode,

1586
01:28:29,040 --> 01:28:31,479
Speaker 1: we'll talk with someone inviting us to live inside a

1587
01:28:31,560 --> 01:28:35,960
Speaker 1: citizens story, one that reorients us towards connection and collaboration.

1588
01:28:36,400 --> 01:28:39,479
Speaker 1: In ways I am sure would make Adrian proud. The

1589
01:28:39,520 --> 01:28:41,880
Speaker 1: important thing to recognize when you start to see these

1590
01:28:41,920 --> 01:28:44,200
Speaker 1: as stories, when you start to see it in this way,

1591
01:28:44,840 --> 01:28:47,679
Speaker 1: is that you're not just talking about like the problem

1592
01:28:47,720 --> 01:28:50,599
Speaker 1: is consumption, the problem is advertising like. It's much more

1593
01:28:50,680 --> 01:28:53,519
Speaker 1: about the storytelling of our society. It's the fact that

1594
01:28:53,560 --> 01:28:55,280
Speaker 1: what I would describe what we live in today as

1595
01:28:55,280 --> 01:28:58,160
Speaker 1: a consumer democracy where our only agency is to choose

1596
01:28:58,200 --> 01:29:00,280
Speaker 1: between a fix set of options that are offered to us,

1597
01:29:00,680 --> 01:29:02,760
Speaker 1: where we're actually encouraged to make that choice on the

1598
01:29:02,760 --> 01:29:06,040
Speaker 1: basis of our own individual self interest. John Alexander tells

1599
01:29:06,080 --> 01:29:08,599
Speaker 1: us how learning to see the story of consumption we've

1600
01:29:08,600 --> 01:29:11,879
Speaker 1: been written into can change our world, and how stepping

1601
01:29:11,880 --> 01:29:21,200
Speaker 1: outside that story could help save our democracy. Row Home

1602
01:29:21,320 --> 01:29:22,000
Speaker 1: Productions