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Speaker 2: And friends and families walking riding on passing the roads

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Speaker 2: every day. Remember they're real people with loved ones who

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Speaker 2: need them to.

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Speaker 1: Get home safely.

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Speaker 2: Protect our cyclists and pedestrians because they're people too, Go safely.

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Speaker 2: California from the California Office of Traffic Safety and Caltrans.

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Speaker 1: Is it possible to be two different things at the

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Speaker 1: same time?

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Speaker 3: Can you like dogs and cats?

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Speaker 1: Can you be a horse and a giraffe at the

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Speaker 1: same time?

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Speaker 3: Can something taste salty and sweet? Can a dress be

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Speaker 3: black and blue and white and gold?

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Speaker 1: In today's podcast, we talk about the centuries old scientific

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Speaker 1: debate about light.

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Speaker 3: Is light a particle or a wave?

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Speaker 1: Or is it both? Hello, I'm Hoorhey and I'm Daniel.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe.

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Speaker 1: In which we try to explain the whole universe and

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Speaker 1: everything in it, including light.

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Speaker 3: Now, I'm a cartoonist. I draw something called PhD comics.

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Speaker 1: And I'm a particle physicist. During the day, I smash

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Speaker 1: particles together at the Large Hadron Collider.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, today on the program, we're going to talk

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Speaker 3: about the nature of light.

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Speaker 1: That's right. People have been arguing for centuries. What is light?

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Speaker 1: Is it made out of particles? Is it made out

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Speaker 1: of waves? It's something else? Is it tiny? Little puppies

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Speaker 1: screaming through space. People have gone back and forth on

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Speaker 1: the issue, and today even the topic is not yet

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Speaker 1: totally settled. So we're going to be taking you through

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Speaker 1: that history and breaking it down.

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Speaker 3: It's one of the most mind blowing questions in human

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Speaker 3: scientific history.

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Speaker 1: That's right, what is light made out of? So as usual,

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Speaker 1: before we dig into it, we went out and we

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Speaker 1: asked people on the street, what do you think light

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Speaker 1: is made out of? What do people know about light?

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Speaker 3: Is light a particle or is it a wave?

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Speaker 1: Here's what people had to say. Do you think light

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Speaker 1: is made out of particles or waves or both or neither? Photos? Yeah, photons? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so you think light's a particle. I think it's waves,

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Speaker 1: youth waves.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, cool, it's both, I think because it moves like

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Speaker 4: a wave, but it also has properties are a particle,

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Speaker 4: and there's nothing saying it can't be both.

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Speaker 3: Light.

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Speaker 1: I think they're made of wavelengths.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, all right. Well it's interesting because I think all

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Speaker 3: of the answers are right.

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Speaker 1: Or none of them are or both.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, it seems like a lot of people reflect the

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Speaker 1: fact that there is a controversy like that. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's not really well described. Some people went all in,

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Speaker 1: you know, like it's a photon, or it's a wave,

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Speaker 1: or it's a wave length.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, that's my favorite one.

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Speaker 1: I want to be a wave length.

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Speaker 3: Like I've heard of this word. It sounds really cool

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Speaker 3: and scientific. I'm just going to throw it out there.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah, maybe I get some points. We award

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Speaker 1: no points to people.

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Speaker 3: No points, that's right. There's no price.

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Speaker 1: Your price is you get to be on our podcast,

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Speaker 1: and maybe we even make fun of you. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but yeah, I guess what you mean is nobody

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Speaker 3: sort of fell for the trap, right, Like nobody said,

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Speaker 3: oh of course it's a particle, or nobody said, oh

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Speaker 3: of course it's a wave. Most people sort of knew

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Speaker 3: that there's some sort of duality there, something weird going on.

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Speaker 1: That's right. That science is having some trouble, some difficulty

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Speaker 1: coming up with a way to describe what light is.

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Speaker 1: And that might seem surprising you because light is everywhere, right,

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Speaker 1: and it runs the universe. It's streaming through the Solar

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Speaker 1: system from the Sun, illuminating our lives, empowering everything on Earth.

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Speaker 1: So you think this would be sort of a high

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Speaker 1: priority topic to figure out like, what is this stuff?

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Speaker 1: What is it? May out of?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, like, what are we paying you for, Daniel,

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Speaker 3: if not to figure these types of questions out.

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Speaker 1: I was just about to figure out what light was

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Speaker 1: when you called and said it's time to do this podcast.

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Speaker 3: Sorry, I totally destroy your train of thought there.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Reflect on that for a minute or again.

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Speaker 3: But no, Yeah, I'm a California taxpayer. Part of my

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Speaker 3: salary goes to paying your salary, like you know, one

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Speaker 3: million of a percent.

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Speaker 1: That's true. Yes, so you're you're saying you did pay

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Speaker 1: taxes last year.

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Speaker 3: There you go again. It's another topic on air, Daniel. Anyway,

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Speaker 3: So that's an interesting question, like is light a waiver particle?

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Speaker 3: And it's weird that we don't know, But maybe let's

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Speaker 3: break it down a little bit. What is it? Like,

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Speaker 3: what are we actually talking about when we say that

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Speaker 3: light could be a particle or like could be a wave?

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Speaker 3: Like you know, most people probably think of light as

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Speaker 3: just like just like brightness, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. The thing to understand here is that we try

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Speaker 1: to describe light in terms of things we know, and

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Speaker 1: that's what science is. Right. You see something weird and new,

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Speaker 1: and you wonder, oh is it like this other thing

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Speaker 1: I know? So we've observed different kinds of phenomena in

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Speaker 1: the world, like you see waves, right, you go to

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Speaker 1: the beach, you see waves and water. You drop a

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Speaker 1: rock in a small puddle, you see waves. We know

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Speaker 1: what waves are, and we see different phenomena. We try

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Speaker 1: to categorize them in terms of things we know, right,

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Speaker 1: So like when people were studying sound, they discovered, oh,

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Speaker 1: sound is actually a wave. You know, it's a compression

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Speaker 1: wave in the air. And that's cool because he says, oh,

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Speaker 1: I already know how the math for waves works. Right,

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Speaker 1: I've seen waves and water. I've seen waves and other stuff.

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Speaker 3: You can describe it with like equations, right, yeah, wavy equations.

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Speaker 1: That's right, very solid unwavy physics to describe waves. And

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of science that's gone into understanding waves.

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Speaker 1: So if you can cram it into that box and say, oh,

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Speaker 1: this is just another example of something we already know,

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Speaker 1: then you're taking a huge leap forward. Right. So that's

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Speaker 1: something people try to do is say, like, look, can

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Speaker 1: we describe this in terms of other things we know?

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Speaker 3: So we need like you know, we know about light,

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Speaker 3: but we want to know how it behaves and what

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Speaker 3: makes it work.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and just on a more general level, you try

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Speaker 1: to see something new, you try to describe in terms

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Speaker 1: of things, you know, like say you taste a new

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Speaker 1: kind of fruit and you be like, oh, it's a

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Speaker 1: little bit like a cherry and a little bit like

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Speaker 1: an apple, and a little bit like you know, it's

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Speaker 1: got a hint of smokiness to it or whatever.

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Speaker 5: You know.

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Speaker 3: You're like, it's a chapel, the chapel.

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Speaker 1: How has nobody ever invented that? The cherry apple chapel?

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, somebody, if our lawyer is listening, get

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Speaker 1: on that right away. Copyright that idea.

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Speaker 3: I'll reserve ww dot chapel dot com.

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Speaker 1: Up. That's right. So that's the basic idea is we

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Speaker 1: have these things we've seen. You see something new, you

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Speaker 1: don't want to create a whole new category. You want

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Speaker 1: to fit in into one of the existing categories.

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Speaker 3: So we sort of knew about light. It came from

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Speaker 3: the sun. It you know, if you light a fire,

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Speaker 3: it spreads down into a room. And so we're like,

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Speaker 3: what's going on, Like, what what best describes how this light?

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Speaker 3: You know comes from a source and bounces off the

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Speaker 3: walls and stuff.

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Speaker 1: Exactly exactly, that's the question. And so we'd seen things

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Speaker 1: like waves, So what do we mean when we say

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Speaker 1: a wave? Like, how could a light be a wave? Well?

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Speaker 3: How can anything be a wave?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? How can anything be a wave? A wave is

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Speaker 1: a funny thing because it's not a thing itself. It's

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Speaker 1: a property of some medium. Like it's the way like

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Speaker 1: a ripple on something. Yeah, that's right. Like if you

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Speaker 1: do the wave at a baseball game, you know, there's

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Speaker 1: nothing to the wave itself. It's just a bunch of

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Speaker 1: people moving up and down and waving their hands, right.

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Speaker 3: Or like a sound wave is just like air molecules

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Speaker 3: kind of bumping forward.

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Speaker 1: That's right, yeah, exactly. Or a wave in the ocean

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Speaker 1: is just it's an arrangement of the water, right, It's

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Speaker 1: a way the water gets compressed and then stretched out

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Speaker 1: and compressed and then gets stretched out. So that's an

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Speaker 1: important thing about a wave is that it moves in

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Speaker 1: this way through a medium. M hmm.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so that's a wave. It's like a propagation, it's

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Speaker 3: like a ripple through something. But then, so then, what

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Speaker 3: what would you call a particle? A particle is different

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Speaker 3: than that.

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Speaker 1: A particle is different than that, and it's a totally

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Speaker 1: different kind of thing, you know, And to be a

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Speaker 1: particle physicist, it's kind of odd. But the concept of

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Speaker 1: a particle is not that really well defined, you know.

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Speaker 1: But when I think of a particle, I think of

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Speaker 1: taking matter and breaking it down to its smallest pieces. Like,

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Speaker 1: if something's made out of particles, it means that at

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Speaker 1: its smallest level, it's made out of these little bits

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Speaker 1: that can't be chopped into smaller bits, and that they're localized,

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Speaker 1: they're like small and contained. Right. If you discover that

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Speaker 1: something is made of particles, you expect it to be

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Speaker 1: like mostly empty space, but with these little dots of matter.

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Speaker 3: Like you would take something and then you smash it

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Speaker 3: to bit and just keep smashing, and at some point

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Speaker 3: you're going to get to these little like baby balls

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Speaker 3: or like little tiny pellets that you can't break down anymore.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah, It's like seeing a picture on your

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Speaker 1: computer screen and discovering it's made out of pixels, right,

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Speaker 1: and that those pixels are the basic elements and they

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Speaker 1: come together to make the whole picture. So figuring out

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Speaker 1: that something is made of particles means that they it's

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Speaker 1: made of these these little bits that are not connected

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Speaker 1: to each other, right, they're separated. So a wave and

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Speaker 1: a particle in nature are totally different kinds of things.

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Speaker 1: Right Now, water of course is made of particles, but

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Speaker 1: can have waves in it, right.

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Speaker 3: But I think maybe what's important here is that, you know,

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Speaker 3: particles we tend to think of as little tiny bits

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Speaker 3: that can bounce around, right, and like go in a

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Speaker 3: street line and then hit something else and then bounce back,

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Speaker 3: or you know, kind of fly through space right in

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Speaker 3: a discrete little package exactly.

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Speaker 1: That's exactly the right way to say. It's a discrete

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Speaker 1: little package. Right. So things that are made of particles

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Speaker 1: we think of as being discrete little bits, and they're

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Speaker 1: broken up into these little pieces, and you're right, they

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Speaker 1: move in straight lines. Right Like you throw a rock,

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Speaker 1: you roll a smooth ball across the surface, you expect

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Speaker 1: it to move in a straight line.

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Speaker 3: So that's kind of what we mean by a wave

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Speaker 3: and a particle, that's right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And so the question is is like is light a

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Speaker 3: ripple on a medium? Is that what light is? Or

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Speaker 3: is it like actual little things and move around in space?

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Speaker 1: Right, does it have its own stuff to it? Right?

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Speaker 1: Or is it just a way something else moves right?

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Speaker 1: That's sort of another way to phrase the question.

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Speaker 3: Right, And those are two pretty different pictures of reality, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: light could be little pellets flying around, or it could

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Speaker 3: be some sort of ripple on a medium. To us

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Speaker 3: in our intuitive sense, it couldn't be any more different, right.

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Speaker 1: That's right.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It's like you can't be a Democrat and a Republican,

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Speaker 1: you know, just you have to pick one, you know. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: if you vote, you can be or you could be neither.

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Speaker 1: I suppose you shouldn't be both though, Yeah, that would

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Speaker 1: be a violation of some election law not recommended to

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Speaker 1: violate elections, right, that's right. Yeah. So, speaking of political

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Speaker 1: shouting matches, this one, this historical scientific shouting match, began

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Speaker 1: all the way back with the Greeks, right, Democratus he's

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Speaker 1: the guy sort of the first atomist. He's the first

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Speaker 1: person to look at the world and to say, you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe everything's made out of tiny little bits, not just light,

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Speaker 1: but also matter. And that was sort of the birth

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Speaker 1: of that idea that maybe everything around us that seems

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Speaker 1: macroscopic is made out of tiny little things smaller than

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Speaker 1: we can see. And you know, as usual, when somebody

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Speaker 1: comes up with a good idea, they overextended. They're like, well,

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Speaker 1: maybe if rocks are made out of stuff, then water

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Speaker 1: is also made out of particles, and maybe even light

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Speaker 1: is made out of particles. You know, at the time,

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Speaker 1: seemed like a totally a crazy reach.

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Speaker 3: And that makes sense, right, because light seems to go

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Speaker 3: in a straight line. It seems to bounce off of things.

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Speaker 3: So why couldn't light just be like little tiny little

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Speaker 3: pellets that bounce around the room and then eventually hit

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Speaker 3: your eye and then that's how you see something.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it certainly seems to have some of those particle

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Speaker 1: like properties, right, it moves in straight lines, it certainly

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Speaker 1: would be going really really fast. At the time, people

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Speaker 1: thought that light traveled instantly, right. They thought that light

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Speaker 1: instantaneously went from like the sun to the earth, or

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Speaker 1: or if you started a fire, that the light would

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Speaker 1: immediately illuminate the room. Now, we of course know that

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Speaker 1: it just happens super crazy fast, too fast for those

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Speaker 1: folks to ever measure, so it's almost like it's instantaneous.

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Speaker 1: But they thought that these things just moved instantly through

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Speaker 1: space and filled up the room. Okay, and I want

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Speaker 3: So initially we thought light was or the Greek's thought

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Speaker 3: at light was a.

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Speaker 1: Particle, right, And I think we have to qualify that

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Speaker 1: because it makes the Greeks sound really smart. Just come

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Speaker 1: up with this idea of atoms and all that stuff, and.

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Speaker 3: You say this before you're you're really down on the Greeks.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think people give the Greeks too much credit

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Speaker 1: for that, because, as I've probably said to you before,

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Speaker 1: the Greeks had lots and lots of ideas. You know,

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Speaker 1: they had like thousands of these ideas about how the

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Speaker 1: way the world works, and yeah, one of them was

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Speaker 1: close to true. But like, if we're going to do

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Speaker 1: some accounting, let's also remember the nine hundred and ninety

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Speaker 1: nine ones that were totally off base, you know, and

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Speaker 1: give them credit for those.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, find that Greek who thought life was just little

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Speaker 3: puppies and be like, see, you guys also thought they

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Speaker 3: were puppies.

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Speaker 1: You can't be that smart, that's right, But he's a

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Speaker 1: cool idea, So give them credit for having that idea.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what they were smoking when they came

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Speaker 1: up with it, but I'd like to figure out where

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Speaker 1: to find some. And then it was thousands of years

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Speaker 1: later before people had another idea. It was a Descartes,

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Speaker 1: the guy who's famous for you know, I think therefore

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Speaker 1: I am he thought about. He was one of the

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Speaker 1: earliest scientists, not just philosopher but a scientist back in

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Speaker 1: the day when you know, science really was part of philosophy,

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Speaker 1: and he thought that light was waves.

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Speaker 3: What made him think it was waves?

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Speaker 1: You know, I don't think he had much justification for it.

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Speaker 1: This is back in the early days when science wasn't

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Speaker 1: really an empirical study where you didn't like go out

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Speaker 1: and do experiments to test your hypothesis. It just made

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Speaker 1: more sense to him for light to be like these

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Speaker 1: wavelike disturbances.

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Speaker 3: Right, which kind of makes sense, right, Like if you

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Speaker 3: have a speaker in a room emitting sound waves, it's

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Speaker 3: not that different from like a light bulb in the

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Speaker 3: middle of the room emitting light all around it, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And there's some things that light does that don't

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Speaker 1: really that don't really seem consistent with particles, you know,

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Speaker 1: like the way light bends through a lens, right, it's

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Speaker 1: called we call it in science, we call that refraction.

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Speaker 1: You know, with light changes from going through air to glass,

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Speaker 1: it bends in this weird way. That's something that's very

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Speaker 1: common for waves, right.

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Speaker 3: And a particle wouldn't bend inside of a lens.

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Speaker 1: No, part of that's definitely a wave like behavior. Yeah, oh,

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Speaker 1: not part of the like behavior. And so Descartes saw that,

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Speaker 1: and he's like, oh, you know, we have optics, we

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Speaker 1: have these lenses, so maybe light is a wave. But

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Speaker 1: if light is a wave, then it opens this other question.

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Speaker 1: What's doing the waving? Right? I mean with sound, you

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Speaker 1: know it's the air and the water waves. Obviously it's

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Speaker 1: the water. But if light is a wave, then what

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Speaker 1: is waving?

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Speaker 3: Meaning? Like, if light is a ripple, what is it a.

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Speaker 1: Ripple of that's right? Yeah, what's doing the rippling? Right?

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Speaker 1: If it's a wave, it has to be a wave

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Speaker 1: in something, because a wave is just a description of

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Speaker 1: some other form of matter rippling.

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Speaker 3: Right, It couldn't just be like stuff that we can't see.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and so you have to invent some stuff that

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Speaker 1: we can't see. Right, So to explain light being awave,

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Speaker 1: you have to invent this universe filled with stuff. Right.

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Speaker 1: There has to be that stuff between us and the

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Speaker 1: sun for example, right, which is a huge amount of

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Speaker 1: this new stuff you're inventing. And if you're looking at

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Speaker 1: the stars, there has to be that stuff between you

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Speaker 1: and the stars. Right, So now we're talking about billions

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Speaker 1: of miles of this new stuff, and Discart, you know,

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00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:03,680
Speaker 1: didn't know. So he just gave it a name. He's

402
00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:05,199
Speaker 1: called I don't even know how to pronounce it, but

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00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:07,960
Speaker 1: he called it plenum. And he thought, well, there must

404
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:09,840
Speaker 1: be if light is a wave, there must be some

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00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:12,080
Speaker 1: stuff that's doing the waving, and we'll just give it

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00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:14,040
Speaker 1: a name and maybe we'll be right, and then we'll

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Speaker 1: be famous.

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Speaker 3: Forever, Isn't it is that different than the ether?

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Speaker 1: It's similar in concept, right, It's a different idea, but

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00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:22,360
Speaker 1: it's similar in concept that like, if light is a wave,

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Speaker 1: it must be waving through something and we don't know

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Speaker 1: what it is, which just invents something to and give

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Speaker 1: it a name as a placeholder, so when later people

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Speaker 1: do the hard work of actually discovering it, we'll still

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Speaker 1: get credit.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So it was a particle. Light was a particle,

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Speaker 3: then was a wave, and then what happened.

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Speaker 1: Well, then Newton came along, right, And Newton's a really

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Speaker 1: smart guy, and everybody knows that he's famous for thinking

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Speaker 1: about gravity, but he also liked to think about optics

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Speaker 1: and lenses. And he thought for sure that light was

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Speaker 1: a particle because he saw it moving in straight lines

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Speaker 1: and he saw distinct shadows. But you know, Newton also

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Speaker 1: did a lot of experiments with optics. He did he

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Speaker 1: studied prisms, and he saw light bending and he saw

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00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:02,479
Speaker 1: light splitting to colors. And you can't explain that if

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00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,560
Speaker 1: light is a particle, but he tried. You know, He's like, well,

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Speaker 1: maybe when a particle hits the glass, it gets some

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00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:13,399
Speaker 1: sort of weird sideways force and that makes it bend.

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Speaker 1: But you know, that's not really an explanation. That's just

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Speaker 1: sort of like a I don't really understand it. But

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Speaker 1: maybe it's something like this.

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Speaker 3: Like if light is a particle, why does it split

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Speaker 3: into the rainbow kind of thing?

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00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And you know this is again back in

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00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:30,640
Speaker 1: the day when empirical studies of science weren't the main

437
00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:33,560
Speaker 1: way to answer questions. It was mostly thinking in your

438
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,239
Speaker 1: head about things that made sense to you, and then

439
00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:38,520
Speaker 1: they would argue about them. Right. A lot of the

440
00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:41,480
Speaker 1: way scientific disputes used to be resolved was people would

441
00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:43,400
Speaker 1: argue about it and then say, well, that makes no sense,

442
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,320
Speaker 1: so it can't be true. And we know now, of course,

443
00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:48,600
Speaker 1: that the universe doesn't always make sense to us. What's

444
00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:52,320
Speaker 1: real isn't necessarily the things that we would have accepted

445
00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:56,040
Speaker 1: as true or accepted as a reasonable way to describe

446
00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:58,480
Speaker 1: the universe. But you know, if that's the way nature works,

447
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:00,000
Speaker 1: that's the way nature works, you have to accept it.

448
00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:04,320
Speaker 1: But that's the sort of primacy of experimental results came

449
00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:06,360
Speaker 1: later on. So back in the day, people just sort

450
00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:08,840
Speaker 1: of used to argue for an explanation that made sense

451
00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:09,840
Speaker 1: to them. Right.

452
00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:11,520
Speaker 3: Well, it was kind of hard for them to build

453
00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:13,040
Speaker 3: a particle collider, right.

454
00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:18,439
Speaker 1: That's right, yeah, exactly. They didn't have the massive government

455
00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:20,439
Speaker 1: funding to do that. These were men of leisure studying

456
00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:22,120
Speaker 1: science and their spare time.

457
00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:25,399
Speaker 3: In fact, it was called like natural philosophy, right, It

458
00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:27,560
Speaker 3: wasn't called science at the time, was it.

459
00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right exactly. All science grew out of philosophy.

460
00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:35,480
Speaker 1: It was called these folks were natural philosophers. But you know,

461
00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:38,320
Speaker 1: later on then people started doing experiments, and there were

462
00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:41,439
Speaker 1: a bunch of French guys who did a bunch of

463
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,000
Speaker 1: experiments and some of some English folks, and they were

464
00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:47,879
Speaker 1: studying how light behaved and refraction and reflection, and they

465
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:49,600
Speaker 1: saw it doing these things, and they thought, there's no

466
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:52,760
Speaker 1: way Newton's right, this has to be a wave. You know.

467
00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:58,280
Speaker 1: They saw things like interference patterns. Right. Interference patterns is

468
00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:00,720
Speaker 1: when you have two waves and some times one is

469
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:04,360
Speaker 1: rippling up at the same time another one is rippling down. Right.

470
00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:07,840
Speaker 1: So imagine, for example, you have a bathtub of water

471
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:10,080
Speaker 1: in front of you and you slap it with two

472
00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,800
Speaker 1: hands at once, right, each one is going to send

473
00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:16,000
Speaker 1: waves out, and then when the end those waves are

474
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:19,040
Speaker 1: either rippling up or rippling down, and when they reach

475
00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:22,080
Speaker 1: each other, if they're both rippling up at the same time,

476
00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:25,439
Speaker 1: then they constructively interfere to get a double wave. If

477
00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,200
Speaker 1: they're both rippling down at the same time, they constructively

478
00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:31,240
Speaker 1: interfere to get a double down wave. If one is

479
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:34,240
Speaker 1: rippling up and the other's rippling down, then then they

480
00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:35,240
Speaker 1: cancel each other.

481
00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:37,920
Speaker 3: Out, right, And so you would see no light.

482
00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:41,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, And so you can do this kind of

483
00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:45,639
Speaker 1: stuff in your bathtub. You can see interference patterns. And

484
00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:47,720
Speaker 1: what happens if you have two sources like that, like

485
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:49,800
Speaker 1: one from each of your hands, is you get some

486
00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:52,400
Speaker 1: areas where the waves are high, and some areas where

487
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:54,399
Speaker 1: the waves are low, in some areas where there are

488
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:56,040
Speaker 1: no waves. And so, as you say, if you do

489
00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:59,040
Speaker 1: it with light, then you see these patterns of darken light,

490
00:22:59,119 --> 00:22:59,879
Speaker 1: these stripes.

491
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:02,520
Speaker 3: And you couldn't do that with particles, right, Like a

492
00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:04,520
Speaker 3: particle wouldn't cancel another particle.

493
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:07,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's no way to explain that with particles. People thought, well, look,

494
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:10,720
Speaker 1: this is something that waves do and light is doing it,

495
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:12,600
Speaker 1: and there's no way to explain it with particles. So

496
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:15,920
Speaker 1: light must be a wave right. In fact, there's even

497
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,960
Speaker 1: famous cases where they said, well, you know, if light

498
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:21,359
Speaker 1: is a wave, then you know, if you set up

499
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,639
Speaker 1: this various experiment, you would get this crazy effect, and

500
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,399
Speaker 1: so that's absurd and so it definitely can't be true.

501
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:29,640
Speaker 1: And then they went and did the experiment and saw

502
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,639
Speaker 1: the crazy wave effect and they're like, oh, that is true.

503
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,840
Speaker 1: You know, this is a I love that because it's

504
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:39,520
Speaker 1: the primacy of experiment experimentalism, right, like, go and check

505
00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:41,760
Speaker 1: the data, Go and actually get some data and see

506
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:42,800
Speaker 1: what the universe tells you.

507
00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:46,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like you're like, a doughnut can't possibly be a

508
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 3: croissant at the same time, But it turns out that

509
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:52,000
Speaker 3: you can bake something called a krona.

510
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:54,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. I think that's a big debate in pastry

511
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 1: science still though, Yeah, is it a donut like that's

512
00:23:58,040 --> 00:23:59,639
Speaker 1: like a croissant or is it a croissant that's like

513
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:00,000
Speaker 1: a donut.

514
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm getting my degree and particle baking.

515
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:08,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, the large Pastry Collider. I'm looking forward to the

516
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:09,400
Speaker 1: construction of that project.

517
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:14,119
Speaker 3: But that's kind of what you mean. It's like you

518
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:16,520
Speaker 3: people don't think it's possible until they actually see it,

519
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,879
Speaker 3: and waves and light has been doing this to people

520
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:22,639
Speaker 3: for hundreds of years. They're like, they can't possibly be

521
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 3: doing this, or they can't it can't possibly be doing that,

522
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,000
Speaker 3: but it just keeps doing all these weird things.

523
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:30,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, And that was the experiment. It was called

524
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 1: the double slit experiment, the one that really convinced people

525
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,399
Speaker 1: that light is a wave because they shone a strong

526
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 1: light and they had just two little narrow slits which

527
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 1: act like as sources like slapping your hands in the

528
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,199
Speaker 1: bath to water, and then on a screen behind it.

529
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,640
Speaker 1: They saw these interference patterns, right, is that you could

530
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,680
Speaker 1: definitely only get if light was a wave. And so

531
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,800
Speaker 1: that was the early eighteen hundreds and everybody was absolutely

532
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:56,960
Speaker 1: certain light was totally a wave. The question was settled.

533
00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 1: We knew forever light was a wave, and we still

534
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:02,000
Speaker 1: didn't know what was it waving through.

535
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 3: But how did they explain all those particle experiments?

536
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 1: Well, this was before we even really knew about particles,

537
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:11,879
Speaker 1: right who, No real particles had been discovered at this point.

538
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:14,680
Speaker 1: With this idea from the Greeks of thousands of years

539
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 1: ago that maybe things were made out of particles and

540
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 1: chemistry was getting warmed up and you know, people are

541
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,679
Speaker 1: starting to think about atoms and molecules and stuff, but

542
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,199
Speaker 1: they hadn't really seen any actual particles yet. And it

543
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:29,960
Speaker 1: was decades later when the electron was discovered that people

544
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,439
Speaker 1: started to think about the particle model again. But you know,

545
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,320
Speaker 1: the wave theory was definitely ascended, right. Everybody definitely looked

546
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:37,760
Speaker 1: at these double slit experiments and saw light doing all

547
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,439
Speaker 1: this wavy stuff, and they were sure that light was

548
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 1: a wave.

549
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:43,959
Speaker 3: Now did people extend that to other things, Like, you know,

550
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,480
Speaker 3: they thought, oh, light is this weird wavy thing. But

551
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 3: surely us, we're made out of little tiny atoms.

552
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good question. I wonder if people thought, hmm,

553
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,159
Speaker 1: light's a wave. Maybe we're a wave too, right.

554
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, or like everything is just like a wave.

555
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, probably not, because nobody thought that light had any

556
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:04,919
Speaker 1: mass to it, right, whereas we definitely know that we

557
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 1: have mass. Right, we feel pretty heavy sometimes after a

558
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 1: big meal. Even before the discovery particles, though, there was

559
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,679
Speaker 1: a huge advance in the theory of light, which was

560
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 1: a Scottish guy named Maxwell. He was working on electricity

561
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:22,199
Speaker 1: and magnetism and he put together all these equations to

562
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 1: describe electricity magnetism, and he just sort of wrote them

563
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 1: down in a new way. This is like the way

564
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 1: you could do theoretical physics back in the days. You

565
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:32,440
Speaker 1: just take existing ideas and you find a new way

566
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,439
Speaker 1: to write them down. But he wrote them down in

567
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 1: this way that looked like the mathematics of a wave.

568
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:41,679
Speaker 1: We have this equation, it's called a wave equation, and

569
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,440
Speaker 1: it describes how waves move through a medium.

570
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,159
Speaker 3: I meaning like it could be described by equations that

571
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,120
Speaker 3: looked like sine waves and cosine waves, right, I mean,

572
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:54,200
Speaker 3: just in case anyone remembers high school math, that's kind

573
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,360
Speaker 3: of what we mean by mathematical equations. So you can

574
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 3: describe it as a sign wave or as cosine wave, right.

575
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:02,160
Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah, the solution to these equations are sign

576
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,400
Speaker 1: waves and cosine waves. These are differential equations to describe

577
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,680
Speaker 1: how things move through the medium. And if things follow

578
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:13,200
Speaker 1: these equations, then they're waves. Right. And so he looked

579
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,679
Speaker 1: at the equations for electricity and for magnetism and he

580
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 1: rewrote them and he realized you can rewrite them in

581
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 1: a way that looks just like the wave equation. Right,

582
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 1: So he said, oh, electricity magnetism has the same equation

583
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 1: as waves moving through water or waves moving through air.

584
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 1: And in fact, if you write it in terms of

585
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 1: this wave equation, you can pull out what the speed

586
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 1: of those waves must be. And the speed that he

587
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,160
Speaker 1: pulled out from this from these equations was the speed

588
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,200
Speaker 1: of light. So he had this moment of epiphany. He

589
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 1: must have been like in his office late one night,

590
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 1: rearranged these equations and realized, oh my gosh, light is

591
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:54,199
Speaker 1: a wave, and it's a wave of electromagnetism.

592
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 3: So like a light bulb turned on on top of

593
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 3: his head, emitting waves.

594
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 1: Exactly, the first appropriate light bulb ever.

595
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:08,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, so then that seems pretty definitive. The double slit

596
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:12,879
Speaker 3: experiment shows it light interferes with itself. And also this

597
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:17,920
Speaker 3: guy figured out that it's mathematically describable by sine ways

598
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 3: and cosine waves, right.

599
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 1: Right right, that light is waves of electromagnetism. Yeah, exactly.

600
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,359
Speaker 1: So then it all seems really nice and tidy. But

601
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,879
Speaker 1: then the particle revolution comes, right. People discover the electron,

602
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:34,159
Speaker 1: people discover the neutron, people discovering all these particles. But

603
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 1: then they were doing experiments where they were shining light

604
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 1: onto materials and trying to get it to kick off electrons.

605
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 1: So you shine a really bright light at something and

606
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 1: you hope that some of the electrons in the material

607
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 1: absorb that light and get enough energy to be free

608
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 1: to run away. And so this is called the photoelectric effect.

609
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 1: You shine light at something and you measure the electrons

610
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 1: that come off. So what they saw in this experiment

611
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,959
Speaker 1: only made sense if the energy of light comes in

612
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 1: little packets rather than a continuous stream like waves. So

613
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 1: they turned up the intensity of the light and they

614
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 1: made it brighter, but that didn't increase the energy the

615
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 1: electrons that were coming off, which doesn't make sense if

616
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 1: it's a wave. It only makes sense if photons come

617
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 1: in little packets, So then increasing the intensity of the

618
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 1: light means more photons, but it doesn't give more energy

619
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 1: to any one electron because each electron can only absorb

620
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 1: one photon. And nobody understood this at all. This made

621
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 1: no sense to anybody. It was a huge puzzle. We

622
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 1: totally believe that it acted like a wave. We had

623
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 1: the double slit experiment told us it was a wave.

624
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 1: Maxwell's equations told us it was a wave. But then

625
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 1: we had the photoelectric effect, which didn't quite make sense

626
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 1: to anybody, okay? And then Einstein said, well, what if

627
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 1: light comes in these little packets like you were saying before,

628
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,959
Speaker 1: What if light is not this continuous stream of energy

629
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 1: like a wave is right, a wave is continuous stream

630
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 1: of energy. What if it comes in these little bits?

631
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 1: And and that explained everything if you if you thought

632
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 1: that light was came in these little packets, it explained

633
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 1: the photo electric effect, explained these all these other mysteries

634
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,719
Speaker 1: in physics, and that was the birth of quantum mechanics.

635
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 3: Did he think that maybe it was little packets of waves?

636
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 3: Do you know what I mean? Like little short bursts

637
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 3: of ripples? You know, do you know what I mean?

638
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 1: Like?

639
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 3: Could that explain how it's both things that run through

640
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 3: his brain?

641
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 1: Yes? Absolutely, I think that's probably the first way he

642
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 1: thought about it. Is like a little localized ripple, right,

643
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 1: like a little Yeah, that's the best way to put it,

644
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 1: a little localized ripple, like the way you can send

645
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 1: a little ripple of water, Yeah, through a swimming pool,

646
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 1: or something.

647
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 3: Like a chirp or like a little sound burst.

648
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, like a little chirp. But it's strange because

649
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 1: you know, you can make a chirp of any size.

650
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 1: You can make a big one, a little one, a

651
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 1: long one, a fat one. But light, for some reason,

652
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 1: wanted to come only these in these little distinct chirps

653
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 1: of a specific size, and the size of those chirps

654
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 1: was controlled by their their color or their frequency. And

655
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 1: so that was the birth of quantum mechanics, which we

656
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 1: could spend a whole other podcast talking about. But it

657
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 1: was the first clue that maybe light did come in

658
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 1: these distinct little packages.

659
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's talk about that, but first, let's take a

660
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 3: quick break.

661
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 1: When you pop a piece of cheese into your mouth,

662
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 1: or enjoy a rich spoonful of Greek yogurt, you're probably

663
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 1: not thinking about the environmental impact of each and every bite.

664
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 1: But the people in the dairy industry are us. Dairy

665
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 1: has set themselves some ambitious sustainability goals, including being greenhouse

666
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Speaker 1: gas neutral by twenty to fifty That's why they're working

667
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Speaker 1: hard every day to find new ways to reduce waste,

668
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Speaker 1: conserve natural resources, and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. Take water,

669
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 1: for example, most dairy farms reuse water up to four

670
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 1: times the same water cools the milk, cleans equipment, washes

671
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Speaker 1: the barn, and irrigates the crops. How is US Dairy

672
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673
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674
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Speaker 1: and electric cars. So the next time you grab a

675
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 1: slice of pizza or lick an ice cream cone, know

676
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Speaker 1: that dairy farmers and processors around the country are using

677
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Speaker 1: the latest practices and innovations to provide the nutrient dense

678
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Speaker 1: dairy products we love with less of an impact. Visit

679
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Speaker 1: usdairy dot com slash sustainability to learn more.

680
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Speaker 1: Terms apply. And that's what we talked about, Like what

700
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 1: is a particle. It's a distinct little package. And then

701
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 1: here's the part that blew my mind is that then

702
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 1: they went back and they did that double slit experiment again,

703
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 1: but they slowed it down. Instead of shining a really

704
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 1: big beam of light, they just shown one photon at

705
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 1: a time, Right, Okay, because they wanted to see what's

706
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 1: going to happen, right if it light comes to these

707
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 1: little packets. How does that explain the interference effect? How

708
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 1: can light interfere if it's a particle.

709
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 3: So like instead of like pointing the hose of water

710
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 3: at these two little holes and just seeing what happens

711
00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:00,040
Speaker 3: on the other side. They were throwing one droplet of water.

712
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 1: Time, yes, exactly, And what they expected to see was

713
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 1: that there would be no interference pattern, right, because the

714
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:09,880
Speaker 1: interference comes from having two sources. Right. You have interference

715
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:11,839
Speaker 1: when you have two waves that are either adding up

716
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 1: or canceling out.

717
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 3: Meaning like a huge stream of light is going through

718
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 3: these two little slits. Then the two little slits act

719
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:23,239
Speaker 3: like little sources, like little sorts of ripples, which can

720
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 3: cancel oz exactly. But if you throw one drop at time,

721
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:27,839
Speaker 3: it's either going to go in one slit or it's

722
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 3: going to go on the other.

723
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 1: Slid, right, that's right, yeah, and so there should be

724
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 1: nothing to interfere. Right, So that's what they expected. But

725
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:36,880
Speaker 1: what they what they saw blew their minds. Right. What

726
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,239
Speaker 1: happens if you slow the experiment down, you send one

727
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 1: photon at a time, is that you still get an

728
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:45,760
Speaker 1: interference pattern. It's just that it builds up piece by piece.

729
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 1: So you throw one photon through and it lands someplace

730
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 1: on the screen. Throw another photon through land somewhere else

731
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 1: on the screen. After you add up a million photons,

732
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:58,280
Speaker 1: you rebuild the original interference pattern. You saw.

733
00:34:58,640 --> 00:34:59,240
Speaker 3: That's crazy.

734
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 1: What, Yeah, light is a particle, but it's acting like

735
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 1: a wave, right, how is that? How can that even be? Right?

736
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:08,320
Speaker 3: It's not just that it's it's a particle that's acting

737
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,280
Speaker 3: like a wave as if it was in a huge

738
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:13,320
Speaker 3: stream of other particles.

739
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:17,720
Speaker 1: Right, that's right. And this blew everybody's mind. And the answer,

740
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 1: of course, is that light is a particle, but like

741
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:25,840
Speaker 1: every kind of matter, like every particle, how it moves

742
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:30,840
Speaker 1: is governed by mathematics of wave equations. So every particle

743
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:34,919
Speaker 1: carries with its some quantum mechanical wave that determines where

744
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 1: it goes. But what was happening in that experiment was

745
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:42,319
Speaker 1: that a particle photon was approaching the experiment and then

746
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 1: it could either go through the left hand side or

747
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 1: the right hand side slit right, And because it's quantum mechanical,

748
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 1: it did both. It had a chance to do both,

749
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:55,480
Speaker 1: and what was interfering was the probability to go through

750
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:57,400
Speaker 1: the left slit or the right slit.

751
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 3: So that's interesting. I don't think i've heard that explanation before,

752
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,640
Speaker 3: or that it's a particle and a wave in the

753
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:06,280
Speaker 3: sense that it is a particle, but it moves according

754
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 3: to wave equations.

755
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:11,759
Speaker 1: Yes, everything moves according to wave equations. It's just that

756
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 1: the wavelength for things depends on how much energy they have.

757
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 1: So that was this guy Debroguely. He came up with

758
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 1: this equation and maybe you've heard the expression to broguely wavelength.

759
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:23,279
Speaker 3: I've heard the expression wavelength. That seems to be a.

760
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:28,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, everything is wavelengths. We were making fun of that guy.

761
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 1: Turns out he was right, Oh twist ending, No, everything

762
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 1: has a wavelength, right, You can describe the motion of

763
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 1: anything in terms of a wave. Now, the wavelength depends

764
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,240
Speaker 1: on the mass and the momentum, and for most things

765
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 1: like me or you or cantelope, the wavelength of its

766
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:52,399
Speaker 1: quantum mechanical wave function is tiny, and so you can't

767
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:56,320
Speaker 1: even notice. Right, the wave effects of you and your

768
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 1: son walking down the hallway and interfering with each other

769
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:02,800
Speaker 1: are basically negligible. But on the scale of particles, these

770
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 1: wave functions interfere with each other.

771
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:08,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a crazy thought that you know. We I

772
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:11,320
Speaker 3: think people think quantum is something that doesn't affect their lives,

773
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 3: but quantum ideas and concepts are everywhere, right, Like, you

774
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 3: have a sort of like a quantum superposition or you

775
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:24,360
Speaker 3: you're not really there. You sort of there's a cloud

776
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 3: of you that is.

777
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 1: I'm not really here, I'm just an AI on the internet.

778
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 3: But that's that's definitely a cloud.

779
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:34,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, there is this quantum mechemical certainly and everything.

780
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, yeah, it's just that you can't notice.

781
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 1: That really blew people's minds. This concept that like, okay,

782
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 1: light is a particle, but it sort of acts like

783
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 1: a wave. We can use these wave equations to describe it.

784
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,879
Speaker 1: And you know, there's another layer to that experiment which

785
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 1: is even crazier, right, which is if what's interfering is

786
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:56,360
Speaker 1: the probability to go through the left slit or the

787
00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 1: right slit right when the when the photon approaches the experiment,

788
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,320
Speaker 1: it can go one or the other. The interference pattern

789
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 1: comes from the uncertainty of which it's going to go through.

790
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 1: So what you can do is you can add a

791
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 1: little detector to one slit that like gives you a

792
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:12,440
Speaker 1: ping if it goes through that slit, right, so you

793
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:14,239
Speaker 1: know for sure if it goes through one slit or

794
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 1: the other. If you do that, the interference pattern disappears.

795
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:22,799
Speaker 1: WHOA why does it disappear. It disappears because the interference

796
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 1: only came from the interference of the possibility of the

797
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 1: particle to go through the left slit or the right slit,

798
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:31,799
Speaker 1: our lack of knowledge. Once you know it goes through

799
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 1: the right slit of left slit, there's no more uncertainty.

800
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 1: There's nothing to interfere. It just goes through the left

801
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 1: or it goes through the right.

802
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 3: It's like you're throwing a boxes full of cats that

803
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:46,240
Speaker 3: are either dead or alive, and you see what happens

804
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 3: on the other side. It's different if you take a

805
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 3: peek inside the box before it gets there.

806
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 1: Exactly exactly, and no cats were harmed. In the making

807
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:57,479
Speaker 1: of this podcast, I now feel en urged to point

808
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 1: out that's sort of where we are today, is that

809
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:06,440
Speaker 1: we know that light is a particle, and then it

810
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:09,800
Speaker 1: comes in these little discrete packets came photons, right, Yeah,

811
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 1: But we also know that, like everything else, light is

812
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:16,400
Speaker 1: determined by how its wave function moves. Every particle and

813
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:20,080
Speaker 1: every object has this wave function, and how it moves

814
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 1: is controlled by wave equations.

815
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:24,959
Speaker 3: It's not like it's both a particle and a wave

816
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 3: and people don't really know which one it is or

817
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:29,279
Speaker 3: people are still confused about that. But it sort of

818
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:31,319
Speaker 3: sounds like you're not that confused about it, right, It

819
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:33,719
Speaker 3: sort of sounds like, you know, it's a particle, but

820
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:35,319
Speaker 3: it moves around.

821
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,239
Speaker 1: Like a wave. Yeah, but it's still confusing. I mean,

822
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,879
Speaker 1: I think you could. It's totally reasonable to say it's both.

823
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 1: It's a particle but it acts like a wave. Right,

824
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:48,279
Speaker 1: It's also totally reasonable to say it's neither. It's not

825
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:51,279
Speaker 1: a particle, it's not a wave. It's something else. It's

826
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 1: something weird, something totally strange. We've never seen before, a

827
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 1: wa we can.

828
00:39:59,080 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 3: Or a pave.

829
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 1: You are on fire, I am on fire.

830
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:04,880
Speaker 3: The simple spelling.

831
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:10,840
Speaker 1: But that's a joke. But it's also serious because sometimes

832
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:13,839
Speaker 1: we discover things which are unlike anything else we've seen,

833
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:15,359
Speaker 1: and how do you describe them?

834
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:18,600
Speaker 3: Meaning we should stop using these words. We should maybe

835
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 3: come up with a new word to describe what it is,

836
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:23,920
Speaker 3: because it's not not described by either word particle.

837
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 1: That's right, it's a chapel. It's a cherry apple combination.

838
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:29,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's not call it a particle or a wave.

839
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 3: Let's just make up any word that embodies these two

840
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:34,440
Speaker 3: ways to behave that's right.

841
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 1: But here we've discovered something which is different from anything

842
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:41,840
Speaker 1: in our microscopic world. There's nothing in our world particles, waves,

843
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:45,560
Speaker 1: little puppies. That is a good analogy for what light is.

844
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 1: So we have to try to sort of describe it

845
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:50,239
Speaker 1: in terms of sometimes it's like this, sometimes like this.

846
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 1: My personal belief is that it's it's not like anything else,

847
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:56,759
Speaker 1: and that these are approximations. But you know, like we

848
00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 1: were talking about earlier, you can be different contradictory things

849
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,760
Speaker 1: like how would you describe yourself? You know, sometimes your husband,

850
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:06,480
Speaker 1: sometimes your father, Sometimes you're a cartoonist, sometimes you're just asleep,

851
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:09,920
Speaker 1: you know, like all these things describe you, their contradictory,

852
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 1: their different facets of who you are at your core,

853
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:14,239
Speaker 1: and none of them define you.

854
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:16,719
Speaker 3: Right, right, But if you don't happen to have the

855
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:17,920
Speaker 3: right label, you make up.

856
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:21,480
Speaker 1: And you nih that's right, Yes, we need a new thing, right.

857
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 1: Light is definitely its own weird kind of thing.

858
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 8: All right, Well, until next time, If you still have

859
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 8: a question after listening to all these explanations, please drop

860
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:41,120
Speaker 8: us a line.

861
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:43,279
Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from you. You can find us

862
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 1: at Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at Daniel and Jorge that's

863
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:50,919
Speaker 1: one word, or email us at feedback at danieland Orge

864
00:41:51,080 --> 00:42:02,239
Speaker 1: dot com. When you pop a piece of cheese into

865
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:05,480
Speaker 1: your mouth, you're probably not thinking about the environmental impact.

866
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:08,319
Speaker 1: But the people in the dairy industry are. That's why

867
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:10,799
Speaker 1: they're working hard every day to find new ways to

868
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 1: reduce waste, conserve natural resources, and drive down greenhouse gas emissions.

869
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:19,719
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