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Speaker 1: thinking sideways to learn more and thanks Thinking Sideways. I
Speaker 1: don't know. You never know stories of things we simply
Speaker 1: don't know the answer too. Hi there, and welcome to
Speaker 1: another episode of Thinking Sideways. I'm Joe, joined us always
Speaker 1: by Devin and Steve, and we're here this week to
Speaker 1: talk about another unsolved mystery. Indeed, yeah, yeah, this is
Speaker 1: a obviously one that's not been unsolved. It's almost twenty
Speaker 1: years old. Um, it's about the disappearance of Sabrina Eisenberg.
Speaker 1: Before you go any further, I'd like to give a
Speaker 1: big shout out to Claressa who suggested this mystery. Thanks Clarissa,
Speaker 1: and also probably a little a little warning. This involves
Speaker 1: a kidnapping impossible, god knows what a five months old girl.
Speaker 1: So if you're sensitive to that kind of thing, then
Speaker 1: you know, you a trigger. For folks, you might want
Speaker 1: to skip it, but you know, but we get on
Speaker 1: the other hand, we're not sensitive at all, so we're
Speaker 1: gonna go ahead and talk about it. So, Sabrina Eisenberg
Speaker 1: was a five month actually not quite five months old
Speaker 1: baby when she was one night, taken from her crib
Speaker 1: by a person or persons unknown, and she hasn't been
Speaker 1: seen since. Her parents believe she's still alive somewhere and
Speaker 1: that she was stolen for sale to a childless couple
Speaker 1: or maybe stolen by some baby crazy crazy person, which
Speaker 1: does happen to people just because they want a kid.
Speaker 1: But a lot of other people think she's dead. So
Speaker 1: let's get into our mystery, which begins in Veldrico, Florida,
Speaker 1: which is a suburb of Tampa. It's to the east
Speaker 1: of Tampa. Steve and Marline Eisenberg had three kids, William
Speaker 1: who was eight, Monica four, and Sabrina, who was just
Speaker 1: short of five months old. As I said, and they
Speaker 1: also had a dog named Brownie. It was very lazy
Speaker 1: about a job. Yeah, I saw her, and I've seen
Speaker 1: the dogs brown brown Yeah, so that was that was Brownie.
Speaker 1: So Marlene was woking up the morning of November by
Speaker 1: noise coming out of the living room. She said her
Speaker 1: fish tank filter was apparently making a lot of noise.
Speaker 1: So she got up and walked out to check it,
Speaker 1: and she was fiddling with it, and she suddenly noticed
Speaker 1: that she could see in their laundry room to the
Speaker 1: open door, and from there, through there she could see
Speaker 1: the door that led to the garage, and that door
Speaker 1: was open, and the garage was open. The garage door
Speaker 1: was open too, So she suddenly sussed out that it
Speaker 1: looked like maybe they had left their garage door opened.
Speaker 1: But then the door between the garage and the house
Speaker 1: had been left up unlocked, and somebody had all the
Speaker 1: doors were open, yeah, and then somebody had entered the house.
Speaker 1: Have you guys, you guys have seen the footage of
Speaker 1: the house. Yeah, it is. It is a straight line
Speaker 1: from their hallway through those doors and out the garage.
Speaker 1: You can see right out. So she suddenly realized that, hey,
Speaker 1: it looks like somebody made have walked into the house
Speaker 1: some summing sometime in the dark of night. That kind
Speaker 1: of freaked her out, yeah, understandably. She she ran to
Speaker 1: Sabrina's bedroom and checked her crib and sure enough it
Speaker 1: was empty. And now to clarify, Sabrina's bedroom was at
Speaker 1: the first bedroom. It was one of the first rooms
Speaker 1: that you would have come to from the garage and
Speaker 1: the laundry room. Yeah so, but it was the first
Speaker 1: It was the first bedroom that you would come to.
Speaker 1: I went to the impression it was the first bedroom.
Speaker 1: I've never actually seen who a map of who slept
Speaker 1: in which room, but I have to presume I agree
Speaker 1: with Joey. Yeah, so she wouldn't have had whoever it
Speaker 1: came in and stole Sabrina wouldn't have had to go
Speaker 1: by everybody's bedroom. Well, you know, if you're stealthy and nothing,
Speaker 1: people just sound asleep. It's not that I'm just trying
Speaker 1: to like lay the foundation mentally out. Marlene says she screamed,
Speaker 1: which woke Steve up. Steve comes out of the bedroom.
Speaker 1: He also sees the baby is gone. Marlene gets on
Speaker 1: the horn calls one at six forty two am, and
Speaker 1: I guess he was a little incoherent. Um, but I
Speaker 1: have surprisingly yeah, I've not been able to find much
Speaker 1: of that the the actual call on the internet. A
Speaker 1: few snippets here and there they found on TV news
Speaker 1: programs included small snippets, and that's all I found. Um. Eventually,
Speaker 1: she hands the phone to Steve and she got another
Speaker 1: line to call her mother and then I'm on One
Speaker 1: operator asked Steve, among other things, if he searched the
Speaker 1: house for Sabrina, and Steve admitted that he hadn't, so
Speaker 1: he told William to go search the house. That's the
Speaker 1: eight year old son, that is he, that is the son. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And of course William did not find Sabrina anywhere, and
Speaker 1: I'm sure that the house was thoroughly searched again after
Speaker 1: the police got there too. You know, the thing with
Speaker 1: Steve is a barely being a Steve, I can interpret him. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but no, the thing is he has he has a
Speaker 1: different way of phrasing, his setting his and and putting things.
Speaker 1: And I think that's one of the things that has
Speaker 1: not served him well because when the operator asked him,
Speaker 1: have you searched the house? He says, he says no,
Speaker 1: and then you can hear him talking to him, he says,
Speaker 1: search the house. I think it's something like turnover every
Speaker 1: pillow in case she got out of her crib, which
Speaker 1: there is no possible way she could have done. And
Speaker 1: people are like, why would you say that it really is,
Speaker 1: except I get it because I know people who just
Speaker 1: they just voice do this even though I know it
Speaker 1: can't possibly have happened, but maybe maybe, you know, maybe
Speaker 1: he was a little exasperated with a nine on one operator.
Speaker 1: You know, maybe maybe I got as Burger should be
Speaker 1: honest with you. Here's something I will say is that
Speaker 1: you know, somebody who's raised two children, right, and this
Speaker 1: is his third, he's probably in kind of a panic.
Speaker 1: And it's totally reasonable, reasonable to believe that. I mean,
Speaker 1: within a couple of months of five months, kids are
Speaker 1: escaping from their crib, no problem, and so it's totally
Speaker 1: reasonable to assume that he was like, well, maybe she
Speaker 1: figured it out. I don't know, maybe she figured out.
Speaker 1: Maybe he's remembering his other kids were total escape artists.
Speaker 1: And I mean, it's just, yeah, he's he's just he's
Speaker 1: And by the way, I don't I don't want to
Speaker 1: sound like I was bashing when I said he sounds
Speaker 1: like he has aspergers. He's just he's very mechanical in
Speaker 1: the way that he's talks and he acts. He's very
Speaker 1: light on the emotional side. And that's why it sounded
Speaker 1: so weird. But you're right, he could have thought it
Speaker 1: that way, or he could have thought there's no freaking way,
Speaker 1: But I'm just gonna do this to satisfy this woman
Speaker 1: on the phone. Should get the damn cops here. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that might have been it. But yeah, I think
Speaker 1: by that time they already had cops on the way anyhow. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they were they were sure they were rude. Yeah. Uh.
Speaker 1: After his his call and he went next door because
Speaker 1: his neighbor, Scott Middleton, was a former Tampa police officer,
Speaker 1: and so he thought, for some reason or another at
Speaker 1: midletoid maybe should come over and look at the crime
Speaker 1: scene or for help, or maybe you just don't get
Speaker 1: good advice, remember whatever. And Medison said there was something
Speaker 1: odd about the Eisenberg's. He said, I quote, there was
Speaker 1: absolutely no emotion with Steve and marleyn like nothing had happened.
Speaker 1: They weren't broken up, no tears being shed unquote. So
Speaker 1: obviously he thought there was something hinky going on here.
Speaker 1: I feel like that's contrary and other things I've seen,
Speaker 1: but okay, yeah, yeah, well yeah, but I do think
Speaker 1: that Steve, even even on their TV appearance to day of,
Speaker 1: he was pretty pretty emotionless. But that you know, again,
Speaker 1: you know, people react in different ways. Thank you, and frankly,
Speaker 1: you know, you're not required to show an a particular
Speaker 1: emotion or not. It's not you know, it's not as
Speaker 1: if grief requires a specific response. There is no specified
Speaker 1: response to panic and greek. I know. Also they've come
Speaker 1: under some fire, which I think we're going to talk
Speaker 1: about in a little bit that they like, you know,
Speaker 1: in months after, like we're seen smiling and people are like,
Speaker 1: obviously they killed Actually that happened the day of the
Speaker 1: day of Yeah, yeah, totally, yeah, sorry, my timelines are
Speaker 1: a little off, but yeah, I don't know if people.
Speaker 1: People do have their own strange reactions. There's there's an
Speaker 1: amazing amount of pressure for these people. And I don't
Speaker 1: mean public pressure. I just mean emotional pressure. And I
Speaker 1: think that they react in a way that most people don't.
Speaker 1: But I don't think that that's indicative of guilt. But
Speaker 1: I I'm already getting head I apologize. Yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean it could it could mean, it could go either way. Really, yeah,
Speaker 1: it may be guilty of sin and maybe not. We'll
Speaker 1: find out, alright. So so they go they go talk
Speaker 1: to the neighbor Middleton. Yeah, and so there this whole thing,
Speaker 1: the the emotion thing, and everything was kind of the
Speaker 1: beginning of their troubles that they had with the law.
Speaker 1: When the kind of Shaff's deputy started showing up, the
Speaker 1: press was right behind them. They started searching the neighborhood
Speaker 1: along with the house, and they started questioning Stephen marleying. Uh.
Speaker 1: And in cases like this, of course, usually the parents
Speaker 1: of the culprits sadly, yeah yeah, and so naturally the cops,
Speaker 1: you know, we're suspicious from the very beginning. One thing
Speaker 1: that struck the cops about the about their home was
Speaker 1: just how chaotic and messy it was, which to them
Speaker 1: signified maybe it neglect. And I'm not so sure. I mean,
Speaker 1: my house is kind of messy too. So, and you
Speaker 1: don't have two children that are under the age of
Speaker 1: ten and a child that is only five months old.
Speaker 1: You also didn't just ask an eight year old to
Speaker 1: literally turn over every single it might have been amazingly efficient.
Speaker 1: Eight year old usually are pretty good at tearing things
Speaker 1: a part, Yeah, well, young William probably actually had a
Speaker 1: good time. Yeah yeah. And another the problem the investigator
Speaker 1: has had with this these two is that Marlene told
Speaker 1: the first chair of Stepantes who ride on the scene,
Speaker 1: that she had been woken up by the fish tank.
Speaker 1: Remember I mentioned that noisy filter, which if you ever
Speaker 1: had a fish tank filter that was going south there
Speaker 1: freaking yeah, I've never had a fish tank, but I'll
Speaker 1: take your word for it. I'll get you one. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: thank you. And then but then a few hours later
Speaker 1: she told another investor get if she'd been woken up
Speaker 1: by the television, which apparently had some sort of wake
Speaker 1: up function. Oh, I've had those. Yeah. Yeah, And so
Speaker 1: that obviously raised a red flag for the police, but
Speaker 1: you know, there wasn't enough to run him downtown quite yet.
Speaker 1: They did suggest that they go on television and plead
Speaker 1: for Sabrina's kidnappers to return her, and they did videotape
Speaker 1: something that aired I think that afternoon or evening, and
Speaker 1: I've seen that I've seen that tape of Yeah, yeah, hey, guys,
Speaker 1: have any opinions on the tape? What do you want
Speaker 1: to talk about that later in theories so we can
Speaker 1: talk about it now. Yeah, what were your thoughts, Stevin? Well,
Speaker 1: I don't don't. I feel like we should a little
Speaker 1: bit describe it, right, Okay, So it is all of
Speaker 1: the news cameras are outside of the house, and a
Speaker 1: cop walks out and there's a police car backed into
Speaker 1: the drive unmarked police car backed into the driveway, and
Speaker 1: the cop walks over the driver's side and gets in
Speaker 1: rather stone face doesn't doesn't seem to have a whole
Speaker 1: lot of emotion, and Steve and Marlene follow behind, and
Speaker 1: they split so that one goes to one side and
Speaker 1: one goes to the other for the passengers door. And
Speaker 1: just as they're starting to split, they both simultaneously break
Speaker 1: into a rather large smile. Yeah, that's that's the whole scene,
Speaker 1: and then get into the car at each other, at
Speaker 1: each other and possibly somebody else, because you know, the
Speaker 1: situation that's going on. Yeah, and so I mean, actually
Speaker 1: that was the background of the situation. What happened they
Speaker 1: say happened proceeding the smile, I guess, well. I think
Speaker 1: he was saying that that one of the detectives cracked
Speaker 1: a joke or something like that, which is kind of
Speaker 1: under I mean, yeah, the guy cuts a joke, it
Speaker 1: breaks a joke. It's kind of understandable in a situation
Speaker 1: like that, which is nothing but stress, because that's but
Speaker 1: that's not there's the other. There's more than one time
Speaker 1: where they were on camera with the smile, and you
Speaker 1: were talking about the other the other one, right, the
Speaker 1: other one where they went on TV that I haven't
Speaker 1: seen anything to plead for the kidnapper or whoever it
Speaker 1: was taken Sabena to to bring back and gotta and
Speaker 1: and Steve is sitting there just stone faced the whole time,
Speaker 1: as he typically is. Yeah, as he usually kind of is,
Speaker 1: and she is being kind of tearful. To me, there
Speaker 1: was something about her grief that seemed a little off.
Speaker 1: Susan Shepherd is that is that what you're referencing now? Okay, now,
Speaker 1: not Susan Shepherd. Susan Shepherd was the woman who three
Speaker 1: years prior had made a claim that someone had stolen
Speaker 1: car with their children. I thought that was Susan Smith
Speaker 1: or Susan Smith, thank you. I always do that. I
Speaker 1: don't know why I always want to call her Shepherd.
Speaker 1: But she's the one who then was eventually discovered to
Speaker 1: have killed her children herself. Yeah, and that that probably
Speaker 1: colored a lot of people's thinking in this case. Well,
Speaker 1: if you watched the two videos side by side, they're
Speaker 1: very similar. It's scary. I mean, it's just grief. Again,
Speaker 1: it's grief, but if they're very similar. Yeah, and and
Speaker 1: Marlene's Marlene's acting I didn't think was really up to
Speaker 1: She didn't strike me as entirely convincing. Oh and there's
Speaker 1: another thing that happened on the on the first day,
Speaker 1: the morning of thinking. The police of course didn't really
Speaker 1: think it was a kidnapper at all, but you know,
Speaker 1: it could have been possibly, So they asked permission to
Speaker 1: put a tap on there from their home phone in
Speaker 1: case the kidnapp called in with ransom demands. Um, and
Speaker 1: so before so we've actually were sticking with the original
Speaker 1: time when we jumped ahead with the bouncing around the
Speaker 1: timeline of that day. These are all things that happened
Speaker 1: on the David. This is the request to put the
Speaker 1: tap on the phone happened earlier in the day before.
Speaker 1: I think that even they left the house and there
Speaker 1: was a little smile that was on like almost right away. Uh.
Speaker 1: And Steve did get their permission to do that, but
Speaker 1: he knew there was a tap on the phone. Yeah,
Speaker 1: either that or he gave him permission and promptly forgot
Speaker 1: about it. I don't know, but he knew there was
Speaker 1: a tap on the phone. And another thing that struck
Speaker 1: the cops as odd was that the Issenberg's had left
Speaker 1: their garage door opened overnight, although apparently it's a mistake
Speaker 1: they had made before court. Apparently, Yeah, they were is
Speaker 1: for leaving their doors open. Yeah, and they also had kids. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and they left. Yeah, they left the door from the
Speaker 1: garage to the house unlocked, which seems like he would love.
Speaker 1: I would. I would if I lived there, I would.
Speaker 1: Even if I didn't close the garage door, I would.
Speaker 1: I would lock that door. But yeah, kids, kids coming
Speaker 1: in out of places. That's why years ago, and like
Speaker 1: what I understand to have been a relatively safe suburb,
Speaker 1: pretty quiet suburb of Tampa. You know, maybe it wasn't
Speaker 1: that big of a deal. Yeah, but growing up, we all,
Speaker 1: like we had doors that were left unlocked, not at
Speaker 1: night usually, but but you know, I mean it was
Speaker 1: it was a lucky break for the intruder anyway, that's
Speaker 1: one way to look at it. Certainly the way the
Speaker 1: cops saw it. The intruders somehow made his way into
Speaker 1: the house and found Seberina and got away without waking
Speaker 1: anybody up, although that would probably wouldn't be that hard.
Speaker 1: One thing that I don't see mentioned in your stuff.
Speaker 1: Here is the fact that people believe that she was
Speaker 1: taken and not waking up because of the fact that
Speaker 1: her blanket was gone. It's her what is the crib blanket?
Speaker 1: Is that what it's called? Yeah, And because it's leave
Speaker 1: that she was wrapped up in that to keep her
Speaker 1: warm and swaddled and quiet, and so she had so
Speaker 1: she probably didn't wake up. But even if she had
Speaker 1: woken up, you know, the parents might not have woken
Speaker 1: up right away. Yeah, I am contrary to my belief.
Speaker 1: Apparently babies don't instantly wake up in a scream, so
Speaker 1: it's entirely possible. Well, even when they do, sometimes it
Speaker 1: takes a while if you build up. Yeah. Well, or
Speaker 1: if you you know, have been listening to a baby
Speaker 1: cry at night, if you're you know, sleep training them.
Speaker 1: For instance, five months is about when people start sleep
Speaker 1: training babies. That one they just you let them cry
Speaker 1: it out. Yeah, you know, they wake up and they cry,
Speaker 1: let him cry for son, Yeah, you'll let him go, yeah,
Speaker 1: and usually they'll that's how they learned how to sell,
Speaker 1: soothe and put themselves back to sleep at some point, So,
Speaker 1: I mean they may have just been used to it,
Speaker 1: although you would assume that you could tell that it
Speaker 1: was moving. Maybe not that baby is throwing her voice.
Speaker 1: It's the weirdest thing. Yeah, I know. Further and further away,
Speaker 1: by the way, I want to I want to point
Speaker 1: out something that I find very funny in a lot
Speaker 1: of those spots where you see the story listed is
Speaker 1: everybody says, Sabrina and her crip blanket are missing, and
Speaker 1: yet nobody has put out an APB on that crib blanket.
Speaker 1: Nobody is looking for the crib and her. It just
Speaker 1: made out. It's such a funny way when it's written.
Speaker 1: Yeah that, Yeah, the blanket is written, and they would
Speaker 1: like it back. Yeah, even if you want to keep
Speaker 1: the baby, we want the blanket back. We might have
Speaker 1: pictures of the blanket. Yeah, we missed that blanket, uh,
Speaker 1: preferably with the baby in it. Yeah. Probably. But of
Speaker 1: course it's the odd thing that that really was raised.
Speaker 1: Yet another big flag as the dog didn't bark. Yeah,
Speaker 1: not a big flag to me. Yeah, well, it depends
Speaker 1: on who you talk to. And the family said that
Speaker 1: that Brownie was a real quiet dog and then barket
Speaker 1: people ever, But then again, their neighbor Scott Middleton, remember
Speaker 1: him the next cop. He said that Brownie barked all
Speaker 1: the time and barked at everybody. The thing is is
Speaker 1: that I watched a piece of footage where the camera
Speaker 1: crew just walked in the house and Brownie just like, Hi,
Speaker 1: how you doing? How you doing? You get pat me?
Speaker 1: You know, typical dumbhouse dogs behavior. Not a peep came out.
Speaker 1: So it could be, Um, we'll talk about in theories too,
Speaker 1: maybe the kidnapper was somebody that Brownie knew. Yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean told the strangers one thing, Brownie who did it? Y?
Speaker 1: Yeah it was the X cop who did it? Dog? Yeah? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I like the ex cop theory. Yeah. Um, so the
Speaker 1: Eisenberg's I should I should have mentioned some other physical
Speaker 1: evidence to By the way, I forgot about this. There
Speaker 1: was there was a kind of a footprint, a handprint
Speaker 1: similar partial handprint was over. There was there was some fingerprints.
Speaker 1: They had a slide back door and then they had
Speaker 1: some fingerprints on it, and then the crib itself. There
Speaker 1: was there was one stray blonde hair, and everybody in
Speaker 1: the family had dark hair, although that could be explained
Speaker 1: maybe if they just had a visitor with blonde hair
Speaker 1: to come by visit the baby. But they had that,
Speaker 1: and then there was apparently a footprint on what's that
Speaker 1: that little ruffled thing that goes around the base of
Speaker 1: the crib, that blanket thinking when hangs down crib skirt. Okay,
Speaker 1: that sounds good enough. Yeah, there was a footprint on that,
Speaker 1: although it's hard to see, I get a footprint on that, Okay,
Speaker 1: you know, okay, but yeah, that was that was a
Speaker 1: physical evidence. That's weird. Yeah, that's weird. That's why why
Speaker 1: they would like come in through the front, through the
Speaker 1: garage and then exit through the slider in the back,
Speaker 1: and then apparently sent ducks followed the scent out to
Speaker 1: the back fence. So maybe somebody came into the front.
Speaker 1: You would think they come in from the front and
Speaker 1: then exit by the front. But maybe maybe if it
Speaker 1: was a sort of a team effort, you know, maybe
Speaker 1: somebody took Sabrina, carried her out to the back fence
Speaker 1: and handed her over the fence. That doesn't make any sense, Joe, Well,
Speaker 1: climbing over a fence with a baby, that makes it
Speaker 1: doesn't make any sense, less sense that that's an instant
Speaker 1: way to wake up a baby. Used to jostle them
Speaker 1: over a fence. Yeah, but I also don't was the
Speaker 1: skirt like hanging down on the ground. Maybe maybe it
Speaker 1: kind of partially detached and it was sort of laying
Speaker 1: on the ground probably the only way that I could
Speaker 1: imagine a footprint getting on there. Yeah, that's that's that
Speaker 1: kind of struck me as funny too. But anyway, it
Speaker 1: was an evidence that they could ever usefully use. None
Speaker 1: of it was um And you know it's another piece
Speaker 1: of evidence which again doesn't really give us much, is
Speaker 1: that that's one of the next door neighbors was out
Speaker 1: walking his dog about one am and the dog barked
Speaker 1: and then he heard the sound of a baby crying
Speaker 1: in the woods off behind their houses. Yeah, red herring
Speaker 1: right there. I'm going to call that. Yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 1: think so. So it was just it was probably somebody
Speaker 1: with us just blame the baby app on their iPhone. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but no, I mean, you know, there's there's other people
Speaker 1: who have babies, So it's not well, it doesn't really glad,
Speaker 1: it doesn't really tell say anything. Used was as far
Speaker 1: as solving our mystery here there, so but that's it.
Speaker 1: I just didn't want to leave out all those little
Speaker 1: coaching details. Oh, well, you see him battered around enough.
Speaker 1: Back to our investigation, the Eisenbergs were cooperative and they
Speaker 1: both took light detector tests and that I think that
Speaker 1: very day. Uh, Stephen Marlane claimed the tests were inconclusive,
Speaker 1: which happens quite often anyway, fairly regularly. Yeah, the polygraphs
Speaker 1: are not a percent, but the Sheriff's department leaked information
Speaker 1: that some of Marline's answers were deceptives. That's about it.
Speaker 1: That's the name. Other than that, you know they've been
Speaker 1: there have been subsequent lye detector tests that you know.
Speaker 1: The Sheriff's department won't release the results. But the Eisenberg's
Speaker 1: claimed they passed, but the Shriff's department is not saying anything.
Speaker 1: Apparently they were a day were in an unincorporated part
Speaker 1: of the captain in part of the county that didn't
Speaker 1: have its own police force as the Sheriff's. By the way,
Speaker 1: if you're wondering this anyway, Steve's brother, as it happens,
Speaker 1: his name was Dave. He's a lawyer, and he advised
Speaker 1: them to get a lawyer. From the start. They waited
Speaker 1: two days before they hired one, a guy named Barry Cohen,
Speaker 1: and you'll find him on the internet all over the internet.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, they never appear without Barry Cohen. Oh yeah.
Speaker 1: And he's one of those guys too, and he's uh,
Speaker 1: you know, good at publicizing himself a little bit. I think, Well,
Speaker 1: all of the videos that I found that one of
Speaker 1: any substance about this case, we're on his YouTube channel. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so that tells you something. Yeah yeah, yeah, but he's
Speaker 1: got some useful videos out there. If you do do
Speaker 1: a Google on Barry co and Eisenberg and then just
Speaker 1: mine his YouTube's channel, Yeah, you'll find all kinds of
Speaker 1: good stuff out there. On the advice of Barry co
Speaker 1: and the eisenberg stopped cooperating with the investigation. And one
Speaker 1: of the things that that the Eisenberg's has said all
Speaker 1: along is that the police never did anything but look
Speaker 1: for a body and try to pin the crime on
Speaker 1: Stephen Marlane. Yeah, and they think that the Eisenberg's think
Speaker 1: that the police never really seriously considered the possibility that
Speaker 1: somebody stole Sabrina. And that's one of the agrievances against him.
Speaker 1: I gotta tell you that, I think I know why
Speaker 1: that is. Yeah, why if you ever look at early
Speaker 1: news footage or later foot news footage. This we're gonna
Speaker 1: look back at the case. It's always divers in ponds
Speaker 1: and guys going in the roadside ditches, because that's what
Speaker 1: makes footage, not cops walking through yards. Yeah, now they were.
Speaker 1: They were going around like looking at going door to
Speaker 1: door and searching yards. And as you said, there were
Speaker 1: these all these rows of divers going into these ponds
Speaker 1: side by side, so they could totally cover and cover
Speaker 1: the bottom of the pond. You gotta think of the
Speaker 1: size of a baby. They're rather small. In five months,
Speaker 1: it's going to be a little kid. It would be
Speaker 1: easy for one person swimming around in a murky environment
Speaker 1: to miss. Yeah, so they did do a massive search. Um,
Speaker 1: the police search, I understand, encompassed about a five mile
Speaker 1: radius around the house and and that's everything. And plus
Speaker 1: Steve was a local real estate agent. I don't know
Speaker 1: if I've mentioned that. Yeah, I'm sorry that that's what
Speaker 1: he was doing for a living at the time. And
Speaker 1: apparently he had just recently taken part in the sale
Speaker 1: of the house. And I heard that the police went
Speaker 1: to that place and dug up the entire yard. Well,
Speaker 1: that's that would lead you to believe that they were there.
Speaker 1: They were pretty sure you would killed your child. Yeah,
Speaker 1: thank you. Yeah, I would be pissed if that was
Speaker 1: the house tonight. I know, I know that. You know,
Speaker 1: they probably just slapped a little warrant on him and
Speaker 1: just said, you know, hey, if you don't need to
Speaker 1: thank us now, you're you're pretty just really escaped the
Speaker 1: whole thing. You've started the process for you unturned. Yeah.
Speaker 1: But but contrary to what the Isenbergs said, the police
Speaker 1: did do more than look for a body, and they
Speaker 1: followed upon thousands of leads, which were mostly sightings of Sabrina,
Speaker 1: which all turned out to be fault. But the case
Speaker 1: was getting Yeah, I was getting national attention, and her
Speaker 1: picture was all over the place, and you know, his
Speaker 1: face at babies tend to not be distinctive, and they
Speaker 1: tend to all look alike. Yeah, and so I'm not
Speaker 1: surprised that lots of people saw Sabrina. I mean, Sabrina,
Speaker 1: what what was you unique about her? She had big,
Speaker 1: dark eyes and dark and kind of a mop of
Speaker 1: dark hair. Yeah, so she was that was distinctive about her.
Speaker 1: So but still, I'm sure in America at that time,
Speaker 1: there were still plenty of babies and thousands of babies
Speaker 1: who looked generally like that. Yeah. And it's also not
Speaker 1: so hard that to, you know, kind of cover a
Speaker 1: baby up. Right, Nobody is going to be like, oh,
Speaker 1: why do you have your baby all wrapped up like that? Right,
Speaker 1: it's not that hard to excuse me, excuse me, ma'am.
Speaker 1: Let me see your baby's face. Yeah, you could diet,
Speaker 1: you can, you can bleach your hair, I mean, little
Speaker 1: hats are fine. Yeah, or she looks like a baby.
Speaker 1: I don't know, there's nothing big and distinct about her. Yeah.
Speaker 1: But the most famous sitting was, of course, Puloma Unknown. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you guys want to talk about
Speaker 1: Paloma Unknown. The basics, which real real quick basics. Uh,
Speaker 1: she's kind of a little mystery in her on her own.
Speaker 1: She was apparently brought across the West Mexico border by
Speaker 1: an unnamed teenager who gave her to a woman named
Speaker 1: Molly Garza, who didn't know what to do with her,
Speaker 1: so she gave her to a nurse that she knew,
Speaker 1: and the nurse gave Paloma Unknown to her sister, who
Speaker 1: lived in Pontiac Illinois, where I don't know if she
Speaker 1: might still live there today. Nobody knows who she is
Speaker 1: or where she's from. The mother. The mother just handed
Speaker 1: the kid over to Molly, and there's no birth certificate.
Speaker 1: They can be tracked out. Yeah, not at all. But
Speaker 1: she kind of I'm sure you've seen pictures of her.
Speaker 1: She kind of looks like Sabrina. I wouldn't say identical,
Speaker 1: but she kind of looks like her, about the same
Speaker 1: age and everything. And so eventually somebody put two and
Speaker 1: two together and they suggested they run a DNA test,
Speaker 1: and the DNA test came back negative, so Paloma is
Speaker 1: still unknown. So this is a good point to bring
Speaker 1: something up about the Eisenbergs, which is either their lawyer
Speaker 1: is a good publicist or they've got somebody else working
Speaker 1: with them, because it's about this time that they went
Speaker 1: on the Horaldo Show. They went on all and every time,
Speaker 1: well like they went on around this time, and they
Speaker 1: because apparently the process of identifying this child wasn't going
Speaker 1: as fast as they wanted it, and they used their
Speaker 1: publicity as a tool to speed that process up, which
Speaker 1: it worked. But they've done this several times for several
Speaker 1: possible leads, and so that's another thing that I know
Speaker 1: is kind of a black eye on their their innocence
Speaker 1: because of the fact that people like, why do you
Speaker 1: keep doing that? And then never mind that it's years
Speaker 1: later and they're on TV and they're just stone faced.
Speaker 1: But I don't know who's telling them to do who
Speaker 1: is telling them to do these things, But it doesn't
Speaker 1: seem like it was a good idea, staying out of
Speaker 1: the public eye as much as possible personally, as most
Speaker 1: parents of missing children do. Yeah, And the other another
Speaker 1: thing that that somebody set up a fund for like
Speaker 1: you know, find Sabrina or whatever. And apparently I heard
Speaker 1: a story that they had used some of the funds
Speaker 1: from that to retire some credit card debt. Have you
Speaker 1: not heard that story? Vaguely? Remember that I seen a
Speaker 1: few news articles, and I'm gonna I'm gonna stress that
Speaker 1: right here that I've seen it in a few places.
Speaker 1: But this is suppressed, So I don't know that it's
Speaker 1: absolutely true. It might not be. Well, you know, the
Speaker 1: stupid thing about that is that maybe it's possible that
Speaker 1: that is debt that they incur searching for their daughters
Speaker 1: and pay for their card now it's it's very true. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so that is that's a possibility. So okay, so Paloma, no,
Speaker 1: not Sabrina. It turns out not to be so disappointment.
Speaker 1: So so did I mentioned the police were kind of
Speaker 1: convinced that Stephen Marline were had murdered her or done
Speaker 1: something school they were involved something sulled. But yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: but they still couldn't find a look at evidence, and
Speaker 1: so well, I actually I shouldn't say that they couldn't
Speaker 1: find much in the way of evidence. Yeah, nothing, nothing
Speaker 1: that you could hang them with. About two months after
Speaker 1: Sabrino disappeared, a federal grand jury was convened to look
Speaker 1: into the case, and the Eisenbergs were summoned, but on
Speaker 1: the advice of Council that's Barry Cohen, they refused and
Speaker 1: they pled the Fifth Amendment for our foreign listeners. And
Speaker 1: you probably know this anyway, but the Fifth Amendment to
Speaker 1: the U. S Constitution guarantees your right not to be
Speaker 1: forced to testify against yourself. So when you plead the Fifth,
Speaker 1: essentially you're saying you're refusing to testify because if you
Speaker 1: did testify, you would incriminate yourself. You might Yeah, you
Speaker 1: might incriminate yourself. Yeah, it's not would, it's might, Yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: and so that's your right. And but it's not. It
Speaker 1: doesn't look good. It's bad optics. Yeah, but you know,
Speaker 1: I mean actually, but seriously, you know, I think any
Speaker 1: good defense layer would tell his clients in their position,
Speaker 1: since the police were really Jones and form, I think
Speaker 1: any good defense to Yeah, I would totally tell him.
Speaker 1: I was waiting because that's exactly where I was going
Speaker 1: to go. Is it if they have brought a case
Speaker 1: against them like this, they are obviously digging for something? Oh?
Speaker 1: Absolutely so yeah, so that's why. So yeah, I say,
Speaker 1: I'm not holding that against them at all. But to
Speaker 1: some people, once again, bad optics. Yeah, a police frustrated
Speaker 1: their investigation, got a warrant and because they couldn't prove
Speaker 1: anything otherwise, let's do something else. Yeah, there was there
Speaker 1: was even some there was some questionable behavior in the
Speaker 1: evidence they used to get their warrants that you know, all,
Speaker 1: I guess their hearts win the right place. And so
Speaker 1: they planted bugs in their kitchen and bedroom in their house. Yeah.
Speaker 1: They listening on them for almost three months from seven
Speaker 1: am to midnight every day and I heard they recorded
Speaker 1: as many as twenty six hundred separate conversations, uh in
Speaker 1: three months in a house with two adults and two children.
Speaker 1: That that sounds like a small number. Yeah, well, I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, you never know. Probably a lot of them
Speaker 1: were like you know, in the rooms other than the kitchen,
Speaker 1: in the bedroom or out in the yard or god
Speaker 1: knows where. Yeah, I've heard a lot of stuff about these. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we'll talk about this. This is not a shining moment
Speaker 1: for the police, is not apparently the something in their
Speaker 1: execution kind of that kind of it was kind of
Speaker 1: a big fail. But we'll talk about that later, not
Speaker 1: too much, but soon. Yeah, they're trying to they're trying
Speaker 1: to build their case. So in May, this is why
Speaker 1: the year and a half later they weren't doing so
Speaker 1: well financially. I guess the police were still yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and they I guess the police were still busily trying
Speaker 1: to transcribe those tapes, because obviously the tapes were like
Speaker 1: late ninety seven and early and so here it is
Speaker 1: like kind of early in the mid nine they still haven't.
Speaker 1: It just seems like a really low freaking priority to
Speaker 1: transcribe those tapes. If you did three months worth of
Speaker 1: tapes and then it takes you a year, and however
Speaker 1: a year to go through them, well, you know, I'm
Speaker 1: not sure. You know, I'm not sure what the legal
Speaker 1: process here too is putting together in indictment and everything
Speaker 1: that you make it very valid take it back. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I would I would say transcribing three months worth
Speaker 1: of tapes would take you a while. It takes a
Speaker 1: really long time. Yeah. Well, but especially again because of
Speaker 1: the quality of but I'm guessing that a lot of
Speaker 1: it was dead air time, so you listen to listen
Speaker 1: to it at two time speed when you okay, well,
Speaker 1: it's you know, she always takes the kids to school
Speaker 1: at eight thirty and then she's gone till nine fifteen
Speaker 1: when she shows back up with her Starbucks zip ahead.
Speaker 1: There are such things as voice activated microphones too, so
Speaker 1: that's that's one way around that. If they use that,
Speaker 1: that would that would make more sense. Yeah, okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: so I don't know, or they could use a you know,
Speaker 1: like situation where they have a have a screen like
Speaker 1: the one right over here that's in our sound recording system,
Speaker 1: where they can just like look at the tape and
Speaker 1: just sort of see where the waves pick up and
Speaker 1: just okay, zip to that part and listen. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: we we we all know how fallible that it was. Also,
Speaker 1: and they didn't have whizzy stuff like this, Okay, So
Speaker 1: so they recorded a bunch of conversation. Yes, yeah, And
Speaker 1: and of course, and as I said, the Eisenbergs, we're
Speaker 1: not doing well financially, and so they sold the house
Speaker 1: in val Rico and moved to Bethesta, Maryland, which was
Speaker 1: where actually the childhood home was, and his parents still
Speaker 1: owned the house. And so since they were having a
Speaker 1: hard time financially, that his parents let them stay there. Yeah. Meantime,
Speaker 1: of course, as I said, the police and the FBI,
Speaker 1: because that I mentioned that the kidnapping was suspected, that
Speaker 1: the FBI at least touches base on every potential abduction.
Speaker 1: Is that correct, Yeah, because that's a federal crime. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that happened after Littlenbirg kidnappens. Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: you're right, And so yeah, it doesn't Yeah, of course
Speaker 1: the FBI is involved. Yeah, yeah, and so so yeah,
Speaker 1: the FBI, and I think that some other police agencies also,
Speaker 1: but they're putting together their case. Man obviously they had
Speaker 1: a pretty good idea what had happened to Sabrina. There
Speaker 1: have been some sculptugg areas said earlier. So four months
Speaker 1: after the move to Bethesda, the FBI pays Marley in
Speaker 1: a call. One day they gave her a friendly knock
Speaker 1: on the front door with a battering ram, came came
Speaker 1: busting into the house, and they arrested her. By the way,
Speaker 1: I think, I think it was a little excessive. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, I I showed it from sending to the
Speaker 1: SWAT team to that house a bit much. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's ridiculous, especially a house with a couple of kids,
Speaker 1: and you know, I don't know if the kids were
Speaker 1: home at the time or not, but still, you know,
Speaker 1: it just seems kind of outrageous to they showed up
Speaker 1: at after she got back with her Starbucks. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: but the battering ram dudes, really, I mean, right, I
Speaker 1: get to buy a new door. Yeah, across town wherever
Speaker 1: Steve was, I guess he was working. They were arresting him,
Speaker 1: and they were charged with obstructing the investigation lying to
Speaker 1: the police. They were not charged with murder. You know,
Speaker 1: we were talking about the fact that the family was
Speaker 1: having financial troubles. Here's a reason why the cops are
Speaker 1: showing up at his job constantly, and his employers like,
Speaker 1: I don't really want the cops around my place business
Speaker 1: all the time. Oh look, the the SWAT team rolled
Speaker 1: into the real estate office and hauled your way in cuffs. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean think about the whole incident where they dug
Speaker 1: up that guy's yard. Yeah, what's that going to do
Speaker 1: up your business? Yeahs his commission on that sale. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know if you did or not, but I'm
Speaker 1: sure that scared a lot of people away. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so so they hauled him away. Yeah, and and plus
Speaker 1: just all the bad publicity anyway, I'm sure would would
Speaker 1: be pretty tough on you as a real estate agent,
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah yeah, yeah, buy a house for me.
Speaker 1: The cops come dig up your yard? Yeah, what a sales?
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah. They had a bail hearing, and a federal
Speaker 1: prosecutor at that here and told the judge that she
Speaker 1: had heard Steve on tape saying quote, I wish I
Speaker 1: hadn't harmed her. It was the cocaine quote. And yeah
Speaker 1: this This quote also appears in the indictment, which says
Speaker 1: it happened in on January nine. Hadn't harmed her? Do
Speaker 1: people speak like that? Yeah? Yeah, I wish I hadn't
Speaker 1: harmed her. Uh. The indictment also quotes Marlene Is saying
Speaker 1: Deceber twenty third, quote the baby is dead and married.
Speaker 1: It was found dead because you did it. The baby
Speaker 1: is dead, no matter what you say, you just did it, unquote,
Speaker 1: and Steve reportedly replied, quote, honey, there was nothing I
Speaker 1: could do about it. We need to discuss the way
Speaker 1: we can beat the charge. I would never break the
Speaker 1: family packed in our story. Even if the police were
Speaker 1: to whold be down. We will do what we have
Speaker 1: to do unquote. Uh. The the indictment has a few
Speaker 1: other incriminating conversations. I won't recite them all just now.
Speaker 1: There's no reason to you. But it was pretty damning evidence.
Speaker 1: And you gotta wonder why the Ice Verse were being
Speaker 1: charged with lying in obstruction rather than murder. I gotta wonder.
Speaker 1: I feel like the next bid might have something to
Speaker 1: do with that. It's a gateway charge. Yeah, just like
Speaker 1: the cocaine. Yeah. Yeah. So things were looking kind of
Speaker 1: dark for the Issenberg's at this point, but then when
Speaker 1: they finally got their day in court. The prosecution's case
Speaker 1: kind of fell apart because when the tapes were actually
Speaker 1: played in court and the incriminating statements that were in
Speaker 1: the indictment, well, they couldn't actually be heard on the tapes.
Speaker 1: Did it sound like turn me on, dead man? It was?
Speaker 1: It was a housemaid of of masking tape and cardboard. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: Reportedly the judge, I think his name was Piso, I
Speaker 1: can't remember his first name, reportedly said of the prosecutors,
Speaker 1: is this all you've got? Unquote yeah yeah. Reporter for
Speaker 1: the St. Petersburg Time who was there described the tapes
Speaker 1: as quote sounding like chicken squawking with a hurricane playing
Speaker 1: in the background. That's pretty impressive, you know. Somebody somebody
Speaker 1: was saying that it was very unclear if it wasn't
Speaker 1: the television. Well that was one of the things that
Speaker 1: I think they did really wrong, right, is that they
Speaker 1: didn't have any way You have seen the wire, right,
Speaker 1: so you know that like at least in the wire
Speaker 1: videotape as well, well you at least have to like
Speaker 1: prove that that person was on the phone at that time, right,
Speaker 1: So the police having no way of corroborating. If these
Speaker 1: are conversations that are being haven't had in real life.
Speaker 1: It's the radio, it's kids, it's you know, neighbors, it's
Speaker 1: people breaking into the house for all they know having
Speaker 1: these conversations. They have no way to know any of
Speaker 1: the stuff. They just have these recordings. On top of that,
Speaker 1: it was all gibberish anyway, And could you imagine if
Speaker 1: it was something along the if the kids were playing
Speaker 1: a game that was something along the lines of like
Speaker 1: Grand Theft Auto, which is nothing but gunfire and screaming
Speaker 1: and swearing and people die and all kinds of dialogue
Speaker 1: like yeah, and then it's yeah, this is just ass
Speaker 1: and I yeah, So it was kind of a waste
Speaker 1: of time. The judge, of course, drew out the case. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I heard that the two prosecutors you brought the
Speaker 1: is the court were demoted afterwards. That's all. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: I don't understand why they weren't fired in this barred,
Speaker 1: because bringing false evidence in front of a judge is
Speaker 1: pretty serious prosecutorial abuse. I feel like these guys, maybe
Speaker 1: we're under pressure to to make something happen, and it
Speaker 1: may have been a bit of confirmation bias. That's the
Speaker 1: only phrase. It's the only way I can think of
Speaker 1: describe where you've got to hear something and then you
Speaker 1: start hearing something and you convince yourself that it's something
Speaker 1: to ferry. We thought we literally just talked about this
Speaker 1: not too long ago, and the Paul is dead. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean anytime we talk about when somebody says, you know,
Speaker 1: you put a video up and you subtitle it, suddenly
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, yeah, that totally says that, or I
Speaker 1: can kind of hear that. But that's I think that
Speaker 1: I don't want to like totally say these guys were
Speaker 1: trying to frame the Azenberg's, but they may have been
Speaker 1: very misguided in their attempts. Well, the thing about it is,
Speaker 1: it's maybe what they were accounting. I was like, you're
Speaker 1: talking about we have these transcripts which are going to
Speaker 1: be entered into evidence and the jury we'll be looking
Speaker 1: at them, and they'll be listening to the tapes too.
Speaker 1: But if they're reading and listening to the tape at
Speaker 1: the same time, just a second, yeah, I guess it
Speaker 1: kind of sounds like that they're saying that maybe Okay, sure, good,
Speaker 1: what's the what's the saying it's like, um, when you
Speaker 1: live in the monkey house, you like, stop smelling the poop, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, if you're in if you're in that for
Speaker 1: so long. So I think that it's it's totally possible
Speaker 1: that that was what was happening to the police. You know.
Speaker 1: At some point people are like, I don't know, did
Speaker 1: they Yeah? They probably did. I don't know. Well what
Speaker 1: evidence do we have when we have those tapes and
Speaker 1: you hear those two you know, and they just kept
Speaker 1: going back and forth and suddenly they weren't smelling the
Speaker 1: poop anymore. Yeah, they're probably were right. It's a situation
Speaker 1: where I can't remeber who it was we it's a
Speaker 1: friend of ours made the statement where these prosecutors were
Speaker 1: in a situation using analogy as similar to yours, which
Speaker 1: is they were in a situation where they had to
Speaker 1: turn chicken poop into chicken salad. Yeah, yeah, that's about it. Well,
Speaker 1: they never succeeded. Their case was thrown out. As I said,
Speaker 1: the ad the Eisenberg sued and one I'm not going
Speaker 1: to get into all that stuff, but yeah, for years
Speaker 1: it did. It did finally ended in October two thousand
Speaker 1: four when their appeal to the Supreme Court was rejected
Speaker 1: by the Supreme Court. But they did one they're they're
Speaker 1: the thing they're appealing is that their they did win,
Speaker 1: that they won, but they want some stantial amount of
Speaker 1: money for layer of legal fees. And then that was
Speaker 1: cut in two by the appeals court. And then they
Speaker 1: appealed to Supreme Court, which rejected basically declined to hear
Speaker 1: their case. Well, and I think part of the reason
Speaker 1: that if I remember reading it, correct me if I'm
Speaker 1: wrong here, Joe, wasn't it They declined the case because
Speaker 1: it would set a precedent where anybody could sue the
Speaker 1: prosecutor's office basically sue them for doing their job, which
Speaker 1: opened them up to a whole another bag of tricks
Speaker 1: that they shouldn't be worried about. I'm not sure if
Speaker 1: that was the same one, but the I think the
Speaker 1: Supreme Court, I don't think the and commented on Oh see,
Speaker 1: I I remember, I remember maybe it was somebody else.
Speaker 1: I think it was. I think it was a different lawsuit.
Speaker 1: They I think they wanted to actually sue or have
Speaker 1: the prosecution like prosecuted themselves, but there was prosecutorial immunity
Speaker 1: that maybe I just it was like it was one
Speaker 1: of those things like, well, yeah, if you it's suddenly
Speaker 1: it's a snake chasing its own tail. Yeah. So but anyway,
Speaker 1: that's not that relevant to mystery anyway. So yeah, we're
Speaker 1: not gonna bother anymore with that. There was not a
Speaker 1: lot of movement after that in the case, no reports
Speaker 1: that I know, let's be honest, there wasn't a whole
Speaker 1: lot of movement in the case for Sabrina after about
Speaker 1: the first three days. Yeah, not really. Well, I mean
Speaker 1: there was there was some movement in the sense of
Speaker 1: getting sightings, you know, reports of studio. That doesn't really
Speaker 1: that doesn't really move things along. It's not useful. So yeah,
Speaker 1: this thing that sort of became a cold case almost immediately.
Speaker 1: Um there was a report or not sually I gain
Speaker 1: us In July two eight, there was a report the
Speaker 1: Tampa Bay Times. I assume you guys saw that. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so a guy named Dennis Byron, who was at Joel
Speaker 1: House snitch he said his cellmates, got over back and
Speaker 1: confessed to taking part in Sabrina's demise. All Rebec said
Speaker 1: that he had made call to the Eisenberg home by
Speaker 1: an unnamed third party to retrieve a small boat that
Speaker 1: had a dead baby in it. Yeah, he said that
Speaker 1: he chopped the body up and used the parts to
Speaker 1: it's a little tacky here, but to bake crab traps,
Speaker 1: which he then dropped into Old Tampa Bay to the
Speaker 1: western town. You can see it on maps. U and
Speaker 1: I checked. Apparently the crabbing is pretty good in the bay,
Speaker 1: not so much in late November, but you know, there
Speaker 1: are a lot of crabs in that bay. I gotta
Speaker 1: say it would take a very particular kind of person
Speaker 1: to be able to commit that chop up a dead baby. Yes,
Speaker 1: to be able to do that, I mean to do
Speaker 1: it regardless of what you are doing with the remains afterwards.
Speaker 1: Like this guy, if he could do that, I would
Speaker 1: imagine that he was the coldest s ob in the
Speaker 1: planet and should have been in trouble for a lot
Speaker 1: of other things. Because it wasn't. It wasn't trouble. He
Speaker 1: was in jail right, but much more heine his crimes.
Speaker 1: He obviously had no qualms about that kind of stuff,
Speaker 1: like it's just that's that's that's surpasses dexter level to me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it kind of is. I have you know, for all
Speaker 1: we know, the guy was probably lying. I've always had
Speaker 1: a problem with jail house snitches. But yeah, yeah, and
Speaker 1: if you're on the jerry, don't trust the jail house snitch.
Speaker 1: Take it with a grain of salt. Well, that's because
Speaker 1: the prosecutors love to use them and abuse them much so.
Speaker 1: Although in this case, the police had wired up a
Speaker 1: Sony Walkman as a listening device and give it to
Speaker 1: Byron to take it. But all Walkman's were listening devices.
Speaker 1: Good point, but to listen to the other direction recording device,
Speaker 1: so they had recorded a back statements. But on the
Speaker 1: other hand, the Isenberg said that they had never owned
Speaker 1: a boat, and I couldn't find any confirmation one way
Speaker 1: or the other. But you gotta assume that the police
Speaker 1: pulled out all the stops to find out if they
Speaker 1: ever owned a boat, right, And there's ways to do that,
Speaker 1: by the way, I mean, yes, the neighbors that they
Speaker 1: have a boat parked in their driveway. And also you
Speaker 1: go down, you've got to register your boat and putting
Speaker 1: numbers on it and stuff, so you know, you can
Speaker 1: you can go see if they registered their boat. And
Speaker 1: so there's there's ways to find out if they had
Speaker 1: a boat, right, so for what? Okay, listen, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: make it very clear here that I am on the
Speaker 1: side of the family in this story. This is one
Speaker 1: of the ones where I just I can't jump both
Speaker 1: sides for the most part, But in this part there
Speaker 1: is a whole bunch of ways. You're gonna buy a
Speaker 1: boat from a guy, but you don't have an actual
Speaker 1: contract with the guy. Instead, you say, listen, you hold
Speaker 1: the note, you and I know it's on a handshake deal.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna pay for it over time. We're gonna keep
Speaker 1: it at at the dock. You you keep the paperwork,
Speaker 1: so then it's never in their name. But people do
Speaker 1: that with with collateral all the time. But Overback said
Speaker 1: that he actually retreated it from their home. It was
Speaker 1: it was parked at their home and they had the band,
Speaker 1: Sabrina's body was already in it. I misread it because
Speaker 1: when I read his stuff, I swore that he retrieved
Speaker 1: the boat from where it was docked. I thought it.
Speaker 1: I didn't. I didn't take it as I didn't remember
Speaker 1: being in their drive. What was over Back in jail for,
Speaker 1: you know, I can't remember now. It was not actually
Speaker 1: it wasn't something hideously hamous it was. I don't think
Speaker 1: it was from murder or anything like that. I just
Speaker 1: gotta wonder if, like, I know, this is like really
Speaker 1: messed up, but I kind of wonder if he was
Speaker 1: trying to like bulk up his cred you know that.
Speaker 1: Don't mess with me. I did this thing. I'm so
Speaker 1: hardly you don't want to come at me in jail.
Speaker 1: I'm not like I'm not to be trifled with. This
Speaker 1: is a thing I did. Yeah, it could be that,
Speaker 1: it could be that. It could be the Byron actually,
Speaker 1: like you know, put the walkman into a pillow and said, hey, dude,
Speaker 1: let's have some fun with the prosecutors here. That thing
Speaker 1: is a bug. So hey, why don't you why don't
Speaker 1: you confess to something incredible lurid you know, you know,
Speaker 1: And that's actually that now that you say that, that's
Speaker 1: a great way to get in with somebody. We're going
Speaker 1: to pretend incriminate you for something that we know cannot
Speaker 1: be true because we're making it up as we go.
Speaker 1: So then suddenly you're on board. You're you're your player
Speaker 1: in the game. So for the guy who's recording it,
Speaker 1: it gets him some some credit. Yeah, so yeah, And
Speaker 1: I gotta say the other thing about Jaila how snitches,
Speaker 1: is that if you're ever in jail for murder, I mean,
Speaker 1: if you have to have ever put you in jail
Speaker 1: and you're suspected and some guy sits down next to
Speaker 1: you and says, hey, what's you in for? Yeah, you
Speaker 1: gotta say murder, and he says, really what you do?
Speaker 1: And you gotta say, Well, this guy was pissing me off.
Speaker 1: So I chloroformed, and I tied him up with budget
Speaker 1: chords and when it came to I changed them up
Speaker 1: and lowered him slowly into a vat of hydrochloric ass.
Speaker 1: And let's let him take that back to the prosecutors,
Speaker 1: you know, ahead, Yeah, yeah, well I put I put
Speaker 1: him in a well, I lowered a bucket with lotion
Speaker 1: in it, and I said it puts Yeah, no, actually
Speaker 1: accustomed build a really huge tribute. And okay, oh yeah,
Speaker 1: let's get back to let's story here. That's been as
Speaker 1: of right now, it's been almost twenty years since the
Speaker 1: Rena vanished and not a single trace ever has been found,
Speaker 1: I mean nothing. So I know that we're about to
Speaker 1: get into the theory section. But I think we'd be
Speaker 1: a little miss if we don't talk about a little
Speaker 1: bit of some of the footage that is of the
Speaker 1: parents when they go on TV, because Stephen Martley talk
Speaker 1: about like Larry King, well, Larry King or Araldo and
Speaker 1: stuff like that. I mean, this is one of those
Speaker 1: weird cases where I felt like I got as much
Speaker 1: formation from news reporting actual videos as I did from
Speaker 1: the written stuff, where normally I I avoid the videos.
Speaker 1: But the Heraldo segment was pretty good. You know what.
Speaker 1: That reaffirmed for me why I hate Nancy Grace because
Speaker 1: that broad is a giant liar. Oh she's horrible, But
Speaker 1: that's not my point. My point is people talk about
Speaker 1: how heartless these people are, how just cold they are.
Speaker 1: Their their daughter was stolen, according to what they say.
Speaker 1: I get that, we can't just say that's what happened,
Speaker 1: but their their child is gone. They are beaten up
Speaker 1: by the media, they were beaten up by the police,
Speaker 1: they were beaten up by the prosecutor's office, and they
Speaker 1: are on TV a good jillion times. Do you not
Speaker 1: think that after a while it just becomes a mechanical
Speaker 1: thing you have to do. Well. Yeah, and of course
Speaker 1: time passes to yes. Obviously, this is you're not a
Speaker 1: blubbering mess for the next fifty years when words are uttered.
Speaker 1: Even if you don't get get over it, you learn
Speaker 1: how to cope, how to respond to it. It's like Steve,
Speaker 1: you know, people talk about him being so cold and mechanical,
Speaker 1: but he was in real estate and Joe, you and
Speaker 1: I asked you this earlier, so you I don't remember
Speaker 1: what it was he did for a living before or
Speaker 1: after the whole real estate thing. Yeah, I forgot. It
Speaker 1: was some sort of delivering installing stuff and I can't
Speaker 1: computer stuff. I mean, he seems like a very technical guy,
Speaker 1: and he seems like he just has a very, very
Speaker 1: deliberate way about him. He's very emotionless by nature. And
Speaker 1: I don't mean that as a as a slur, just
Speaker 1: the way he reacts. And yet at the same time
Speaker 1: I watched that guy freak out on TV. I mean,
Speaker 1: he got very remember one you were talking about, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it's like, well, how do you call them not emotional? Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: of course he's not crying over the fact that his
Speaker 1: daughter has gone six or nine months later, because he's
Speaker 1: cried himself out, but he still has emotion, he still
Speaker 1: loses it, but people don't want to attribute that to
Speaker 1: actual feelings. It just it feels really weird to me
Speaker 1: the way that this case has just been so it's polarized. Well,
Speaker 1: it's not just this case, right, it's any time that
Speaker 1: kids disappear parents. There's such a spotlight put on their
Speaker 1: parents to react exactly the right way, right, and if
Speaker 1: they don't react exactly how everybody thinks they should write,
Speaker 1: they should be teary, but not like in an fake, weird,
Speaker 1: dramatic way, and they should be like very stoic the
Speaker 1: entire time and never smile. And they can't just be
Speaker 1: too stern about it, right, but they and they can't
Speaker 1: because they also can't come off as though like they
Speaker 1: were maybe like distant and abuse so while the child
Speaker 1: was there, and like it's just like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: Like these people are human beings going through a thing,
Speaker 1: and like we're putting the spotlight on them. Of course
Speaker 1: they're not going to like stack up, of course they're not.
Speaker 1: Nobody does and probably you know, when you go out
Speaker 1: in public, you know you behave a little differently than
Speaker 1: you do in private. Yeah, and most of us don't
Speaker 1: want to be seen crying on national TV. Well, I
Speaker 1: mean there's also the question of like what, you know,
Speaker 1: what kind of household did Steve grow up in? Was
Speaker 1: it okay for guys to cry? Right? Or was he
Speaker 1: meant to be holding it in? Was that right? You know,
Speaker 1: just hold it in? And like the way that he
Speaker 1: expressed his emotion again, is that anger outburst and that
Speaker 1: like he thought, I can't cry, I'm a man, right.
Speaker 1: It's something as simple as like, you know, maybe you
Speaker 1: don't mind if your neighbor sees you cry, but you
Speaker 1: really don't want your father seeing you cry, right, you know,
Speaker 1: and you know your dad's gonna see you on TV, right,
Speaker 1: so you're gonna hold it in. Right? So anyway, enough
Speaker 1: enough about this speculation about him Ocean. Well, yeah, we're right,
Speaker 1: I mean, and just just again to read for everybody
Speaker 1: you know this, this is something that happens two parents,
Speaker 1: no matter what their age of their children are. I mean,
Speaker 1: there's um I think I've talked about the book before,
Speaker 1: The People Who Eat Darkness. That book the girl was
Speaker 1: I think she was twenty or twenty two when she
Speaker 1: disappeared in the same kind of speculation about the family's
Speaker 1: reactions that we just talked about here were thrust upon
Speaker 1: the parents of a twenty sem odd year old woman.
Speaker 1: So it's it's universal. It's despicable, but it's universal. It's
Speaker 1: like it's like the dango ate my baby chick, you know.
Speaker 1: The And then years go by and she's the most
Speaker 1: hated woman in Australia and then they finally find her
Speaker 1: babies with skeletal remains. For it wasn't the remains, but
Speaker 1: it was I think it was the blanket. They found
Speaker 1: the blanket in a dingo down. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And
Speaker 1: so it looks like she was telling ge haters, how
Speaker 1: do you feel about yourself? Now? Justified? Come on, let's
Speaker 1: let's be justified and talk about theories. Yeah yeah, all right,
Speaker 1: let's get into our theories. Okay, yeah, I divided theories
Speaker 1: in the two subsets. Yeah you did you. I've been
Speaker 1: trained by the best. So first is Stephen Marline are
Speaker 1: telling the truth? Uh, and the second set is they're lying?
Speaker 1: Can I in a referse section? There's weird. I just
Speaker 1: noticed something weird in your note is that you've abbreviated
Speaker 1: these people so they become but only when they're like bad.
Speaker 1: It really It really threw me. It was like, what
Speaker 1: this isn't this is a theory. I didn't know that
Speaker 1: asking them is lying. I didn't know that either. I
Speaker 1: didn't know it was possible. Oh okay, let's start out.
Speaker 1: So the parents knew nothing. They truly knew nothing. So
Speaker 1: the theories under that would be Sabrina was abducted and
Speaker 1: murdered by a random killer that's extremely abnormally a baby
Speaker 1: of that age. Well, it just seems unlikely to me
Speaker 1: that somebody would just be going down the street and
Speaker 1: the cold to sack by the way that I mention
Speaker 1: it was a cold to sack, Yeah, and and happy
Speaker 1: to see an open garage door and just say, hey,
Speaker 1: I'll walk over there and see if that I can.
Speaker 1: The door to the house is unlocked, and hey, guess
Speaker 1: what it is. Maybe I'll go see if I can
Speaker 1: abduct a child and you don't take them out in
Speaker 1: the woods and murder of them. Yeah, that's that's yeah.
Speaker 1: And the one thing that another theory that's been put
Speaker 1: out there by people, that there's a whole devil worshiping
Speaker 1: cult thing, yeah, satanic panic, yes, yeah. And so I'm
Speaker 1: finding all that whole thing just not satanic panic wasn't
Speaker 1: a real thing, not really, So that's this, know, this
Speaker 1: theory doesn't exist, okay theory. Okay, abduction for sale, and
Speaker 1: of course there's also just abduction by somebody who's baby crazy.
Speaker 1: So I guess that comes to a whole like, you know,
Speaker 1: three theories there. Um, Yeah, we need to explain when
Speaker 1: when you say baby crazy, Joe, you mean there are
Speaker 1: there's a condition for folks and craziest wrong term use.
Speaker 1: But it's just that people, the people who really want
Speaker 1: a child but for whatever reason can't have one, yes,
Speaker 1: and therefore resort to stealing someone else's child. Yeah, this
Speaker 1: is not not unknown. But so let's let's do the
Speaker 1: abduction the baby crazy one first. That that would mean
Speaker 1: somebody really really wanted a child and they stopped. They
Speaker 1: stopped the family for god knows how long, and you know,
Speaker 1: no more than five months. Yeah, obviously, but they stocked
Speaker 1: him for a while, probably because they had to get
Speaker 1: an idea of you know, where they lived and everything,
Speaker 1: and sort of get an idea of you know, hey,
Speaker 1: they leave the garage store open, Hey we can go
Speaker 1: jimmy the lock and hey that night we locked out.
Speaker 1: They didn't even lock the lock, you know. And and
Speaker 1: we went in there and found the baby and took it,
Speaker 1: and and and Sabrina was a cute kid. She was
Speaker 1: a cute little baby, you know. So I'm gonna go
Speaker 1: on record say I hate this theory, but it actually
Speaker 1: it actually explains something to a degree, which is, let's
Speaker 1: say that said people who are in need of a baby,
Speaker 1: whether for emotional reasons or financial reasons, happened to live
Speaker 1: on the other side of the fence, walk around, they
Speaker 1: see the door is open, that person walks in, opens
Speaker 1: the baby there. Don't open the baby out there, pretty creepy.
Speaker 1: The door is open, and they take the baby, thank
Speaker 1: you for correcting that. And then they walk to the
Speaker 1: back fence where their accomplice who is in the house
Speaker 1: is at the fence and hand the baby over the fence,
Speaker 1: and then they go back out the front door, thus
Speaker 1: eliminating the need to walk around the block with a
Speaker 1: potentially crying baby or you know where you might be seen.
Speaker 1: On the other hand, however, uh, it seems like the
Speaker 1: police search was fairly extensive, and like they probably would
Speaker 1: have like just at least casually searched people's houses like
Speaker 1: but but that doesn't mean that the people who wanted
Speaker 1: the baby and we're staying at that house were the
Speaker 1: people who lived in that house. It could be my
Speaker 1: wife and I want a baby and I'm staying with
Speaker 1: my aunt and uncle for an extended stay, let's say
Speaker 1: two weeks, and I realized they have it. And the
Speaker 1: the day before I'm supposed to leave, I'm out on
Speaker 1: a walk and I realized it, and I'm like, holy crap, honey,
Speaker 1: They've left the door open. Like we can totally we
Speaker 1: can have a raising Arizona moment, at which point, you know,
Speaker 1: we just leave in the night and leave a note
Speaker 1: that say we had to go, and then we show
Speaker 1: up months later it's like, well, we didn't want to
Speaker 1: tell anybody, but she was actually pregnant. Ha, Like it's
Speaker 1: it's a total raising Arizona situation. There are some issues
Speaker 1: with this, though, There are. I mean, that would have
Speaker 1: been that would have been interesting, and it would have
Speaker 1: been really coincidental that the people right behind them wanted
Speaker 1: a baby real bad. Well, that's why I'm saying it's
Speaker 1: somebody that isn't the neighbors, so that they're gone. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but more than that, right, I mean, so Okay, so
Speaker 1: say that somebody did abduct this baby and then chose
Speaker 1: to raise it on their own. But we live in America,
Speaker 1: and um, like you need things like a birth certificate
Speaker 1: or like a Social Security number or card. I mean
Speaker 1: you can get a replacement card, right, We've discovered that,
Speaker 1: but you need your number YEA, And yeah, you can
Speaker 1: get a replacement birth certificate, but you need some proof
Speaker 1: of you know, you saying you are who you are,
Speaker 1: and there's just a lot of stuff you need. It's hard.
Speaker 1: It would be hard to explain because like say you're
Speaker 1: adopted by this family and you go out and you
Speaker 1: actually get a birth certificate for somebody was born about
Speaker 1: the same time, but who died. You know that that's
Speaker 1: it's harder to do these days, you can still do that.
Speaker 1: But the problem is is in you got to figure
Speaker 1: out a way to explain the fact that you've got
Speaker 1: this kid. So you're we're all, we're all making a
Speaker 1: giant mistake here. Know that everybody has a child in
Speaker 1: a hospital. It is entirely possible that somebody could file
Speaker 1: the paperwork and say I had my child at home.
Speaker 1: I didn't have a midwife with me. It just happened,
Speaker 1: and we've got our baby. People do that. It's not
Speaker 1: it's not common, but it's not unheard of that home
Speaker 1: bursts happened and they are unattended, and it is very
Speaker 1: difficult to get the proper paperwork after the fact. But
Speaker 1: if this child is like six months old, you can
Speaker 1: flub that. You can fudge it and say, you know that,
Speaker 1: you can make up some stuff. And by the time
Speaker 1: that you've filed your paperwork and they come around eventually
Speaker 1: the child is months older than that, they may not
Speaker 1: ever figure it out. It's entirely possible. Is it plausible.
Speaker 1: I don't think so, but it is possible if you
Speaker 1: were smart, you're planned it. Well, that's one of the
Speaker 1: things you could do is you could file the paperwork
Speaker 1: like you was like three months old, and you knew
Speaker 1: what she looked like. She has dark hair, dark eyes,
Speaker 1: and about X number of pounds. Yeah, yeah, and then
Speaker 1: you know, and then by the time by the time
Speaker 1: they finally come around and have a look at her,
Speaker 1: you know she's a couple of months older. But and
Speaker 1: you don't even consider that she's Sabrina because I mean,
Speaker 1: you put you found your paperwork like two months before kidnapping.
Speaker 1: You know, she so she looks uncomfortably like Sabrina, but
Speaker 1: you know I can't be You file the paperwork way
Speaker 1: back when. Yeah, that's meditation. And of course you have
Speaker 1: also dyed her hair like blonde. Well, and that's the
Speaker 1: sort of thing you would have to do, right, because
Speaker 1: they think to make the assumption babies progress in a
Speaker 1: very predictable way, especially in that first year of life.
Speaker 1: And so to say like, wow, they wouldn't notice a
Speaker 1: couple of months, it's like they probably would though. Uh,
Speaker 1: you know everything I know about social workers and people
Speaker 1: who are in that profession and the workload. I'm not
Speaker 1: knocking them, but their workloads. I'm not talking about social
Speaker 1: workers that I'm talking about doctors, like you take her
Speaker 1: for her baby wellness check up six months and she's
Speaker 1: actually like eight months. They're going to know. So if
Speaker 1: what Joe says they would have premeditated, that would make
Speaker 1: it a lot more believable. But that would have to
Speaker 1: have been really premeditated, and it would have had to
Speaker 1: been local, Yeah, very much so. But or some incredible
Speaker 1: incredible professionals, you know, like you guys that are like
Speaker 1: guys that are like international crime like level kind of
Speaker 1: thing that we're hired by rich people. Oh so it's
Speaker 1: it's it's it's baby impossible like that. Yeah, but I
Speaker 1: guess at that point it's kind of like, if they
Speaker 1: are baby impossible level, right, why are you not just
Speaker 1: kidnapping babies from other countries and then shipping them over
Speaker 1: here as like they're adopted. Sadly, it turns out that
Speaker 1: is much easier and affordable. Yeah, that I don't know,
Speaker 1: But I don't know. Yeah, Okay, Well, so much for
Speaker 1: that that whole theory. Abduction by baby crazy, abduction for sale.
Speaker 1: I think that's a similar thing. I think it's unlikely.
Speaker 1: They're all unlikely. So let's let's to our next set
Speaker 1: of theories. Well, it's actually that's that's the one I
Speaker 1: like though, the most. Which one is that? The abduction
Speaker 1: for keeping O, That's the one I want, that's in
Speaker 1: like in your emotional that's what I want. This girl
Speaker 1: is This is girl is at this point, if this
Speaker 1: is true, she is old right now, eighteen, So I
Speaker 1: really want this to be some eighteen year old girl
Speaker 1: whose biggest concern is should she or should she not
Speaker 1: date Bobby Johnson? Yeah, better than somebody who's dead and
Speaker 1: then rotting in a grave somewhere. Right, you know, something
Speaker 1: terrible has happened too soon. That's what I'm just gonna
Speaker 1: keep saying. Just thinking, Bobby Johnson, you realize you have
Speaker 1: one of our listens might actually be Sabrina. So if
Speaker 1: you're eighteen, Sabrina, of course you're not called Sabrina. Check yours.
Speaker 1: That might be coincidental. Yeah, yeah, but yeah, okay. Subset
Speaker 1: theory number two, yeah, which is the parents did know something. Uh,
Speaker 1: it does does kind of look like they maybe knew something.
Speaker 1: I left one little detail out from the story of
Speaker 1: that first day. Remember what I said, The police put
Speaker 1: a tap on the Eisenberg's phone, Yeah, just in case
Speaker 1: the kid never called. One of the first calls that
Speaker 1: came in that morning was from Steve's brother, Dave, who
Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier, who was a lawyer, and who called
Speaker 1: him up and told him he should be careful what
Speaker 1: he said to the police and it should lawyer up
Speaker 1: and cetera. Yeah, And then when they were talking and
Speaker 1: the police were listening to this conversation, they heard a
Speaker 1: beat which was call waiting. Somebody was calling in, And
Speaker 1: surprisingly Steve didn't take the call yeah, And eventually the
Speaker 1: caller rang off. You know what that sounds like, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I've hung up tone yeah, yeah, yeah, And Steven Dave
Speaker 1: kept talking and then another call came in, and once
Speaker 1: again Steve blew the call off that he was really
Speaker 1: concerned about her having been kidnapped. Apparently, yeah, apparently he didn't.
Speaker 1: He didn't believe for a second that she had been kidnapped. UM,
Speaker 1: I have to ask a question, which is, have you
Speaker 1: never seen what happens to anybody that's in the media spotlight.
Speaker 1: Everybody and their mom calls them from news agencies to talk.
Speaker 1: So it could very well have been that he was.
Speaker 1: They were getting good jillions of Hi, this is so
Speaker 1: and so from ABC News Channel seven, want to talk
Speaker 1: about missing child? Can we talk with you? No go away? Hi?
Speaker 1: This is so and so from CBS News Channel six.
Speaker 1: Can we talk to you? No go await? Like but
Speaker 1: I get that. But still, but any car, any call
Speaker 1: could have been the kick off and the kid never
Speaker 1: number one number two. I again, I'm making assumptions here.
Speaker 1: I have to assume that the police let the media know, Hey, guys,
Speaker 1: don't be calling in. I'm not gonna agree with that.
Speaker 1: The media is that crap all the time, But but
Speaker 1: seriously they I mean, I could see what the police
Speaker 1: would say, Hey, we have to keep that lineup, and
Speaker 1: in case their kid never calls it, we have to
Speaker 1: keep it open. I don't think. I don't think news
Speaker 1: agencies call people. I think they'd show up on their doorstep.
Speaker 1: You know what the first string does. The third string
Speaker 1: doesn't like the radio station. They don't have a guy
Speaker 1: to send down there. But my other thing to think about,
Speaker 1: and and again I realize I'm defending these people when
Speaker 1: I say these things, and it's not to defend them,
Speaker 1: it's just that I see other reasons. But the other
Speaker 1: thing is, I don't know if you've ever had this,
Speaker 1: but I know people who don't understand how to use
Speaker 1: call waiting. So it may have been and that he
Speaker 1: never understood how to use this this goll dang call
Speaker 1: thing it comes through. I can't believe he's quite that dumb.
Speaker 1: But I have no perfectly intelligent people who look at
Speaker 1: their phone and go, what what are these other three
Speaker 1: buttons for? That don't have numbers? Or the picture of
Speaker 1: a red or green phone on him? Was what it was?
Speaker 1: You got to be you hit the receiver button and
Speaker 1: you clicked over the other line. Though even on a
Speaker 1: cordless phone, it was probably possible. But the thing about
Speaker 1: there's no button on a cordless phone, there's a hang
Speaker 1: up and there's an answer and a disconnect button. Which
Speaker 1: one would you hit? There? There is a way. And
Speaker 1: I don't know if he was cos I'm being a
Speaker 1: jerk about this, but making a point. I think realistically
Speaker 1: people at that time. I just think realistically in the end. Right,
Speaker 1: if even if you don't know how to use call waiting, right,
Speaker 1: the first time you hear that thing going, you go,
Speaker 1: oh crap, Dave, I'm sorry, somebody's ringing the other line.
Speaker 1: I gotta go yeah, exactly right. You don't stay on
Speaker 1: the phone or you say, hey, Mr Police officer, Sir,
Speaker 1: I was just on the phone with my brother Dave,
Speaker 1: and I heard call waiting ringing. I didn't know how
Speaker 1: to switch over. What do I do? You bring it up?
Speaker 1: If you actually think that a kidnapper is calling for ransom,
Speaker 1: you bring it up and you hang up the phone.
Speaker 1: Even if you can't figure out how to duck over
Speaker 1: to that other line, well, let me let me tell
Speaker 1: you something else. Completely logical with Now you gotta you
Speaker 1: gotta understand something else too. Steve was a real estate agent.
Speaker 1: Do you understand how key the phone is to a
Speaker 1: real estate agent? I do, but I don't know how
Speaker 1: good of a real estate agent he was. Well, I mean,
Speaker 1: look at the house they were living in. It was
Speaker 1: a nice house. I think I can tell this whole
Speaker 1: thing happened is business one down to toil. He was
Speaker 1: probably doing pretty well. I thought huge started in the
Speaker 1: real estate busy at that point. I think he had
Speaker 1: been in it for a while and I had no
Speaker 1: idea how long he was selling cass but apparently maybe
Speaker 1: he had only just started. But he was just doing
Speaker 1: it really well because the market was really hot right
Speaker 1: at that part. Because I remember that is that was
Speaker 1: that's a bubble. I mean the bubble was still going
Speaker 1: on that you know, it was like that was kind
Speaker 1: of the beginning. Any idiot will serve. But I think, sorry,
Speaker 1: go ahead, but I get a guy. I've got to
Speaker 1: tell you, I've dealt with many, many real estate agents,
Speaker 1: and they live and die by their phones. Yeah they do.
Speaker 1: I just think we've had Nauseams discussed Steve's downfall of phones.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I don't have to use the phone. But anyway,
Speaker 1: this is this, okay, among other things, this is one
Speaker 1: of the things that right right for the start told
Speaker 1: the police that the parents knew something, at least something.
Speaker 1: That doesn't mean that they murdered Sabrina, but they knew something.
Speaker 1: And I think I suspect they did know something. So
Speaker 1: let's go go through our theories here, which is that
Speaker 1: Stephen Marley and killed Sabrina. I don't think that either
Speaker 1: one of them is this intentional or unintentional. I think
Speaker 1: most likely, you know, unintentional because it's not totally out
Speaker 1: of the realm of possibility. But I've seen pictures, have
Speaker 1: you guys, these guys have seen pictures in the videos. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and and and you know, they're smiling and they're happy,
Speaker 1: you know, and and they're very happy with them. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and and and so they didn't look to me like
Speaker 1: they were hating on Sabrina to want to kill her. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So I'm thinking that if they did kill her, it
Speaker 1: was accidental. It might have been it might have involved
Speaker 1: some sort of negligence which maybe would have looked kind
Speaker 1: of bad, and maybe, you know, maybe them want to like,
Speaker 1: you know, keep it quiet. I don't know. Let's see,
Speaker 1: what what can I think of? You know, I ran
Speaker 1: over the baby with the car the driveway or something
Speaker 1: like that, that kind of thing that that would that
Speaker 1: would be blatant negligence to try to hide. Yes, So
Speaker 1: that's one of the one of the things I'm thinking
Speaker 1: is or thinking of one of those baby shaking incidents,
Speaker 1: you know, where people don't mean to but they shake
Speaker 1: the baby and the baby's neck breaks and the baby
Speaker 1: dies and all that stuff which got its terrible thinking.
Speaker 1: Actually still effing happens. Yes, it does happen, I mean,
Speaker 1: And so it could have been something like that. So
Speaker 1: you could have done that. Yeah, No, I don't don't
Speaker 1: like it. You don't like it. No, I never like it.
Speaker 1: You don't you don't like it? Okay, next up. So
Speaker 1: the next theory is is that Stephen Marline sold her.
Speaker 1: They crunched the numbers and they decided they couldn't afford
Speaker 1: to have three children after all, and so they found
Speaker 1: themselves a wealthy buyer and and pedalder. This has got
Speaker 1: a lot of problems too, of course, the first of
Speaker 1: which is it's relatively easy to adopt your child out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so it would be a little greedy be to
Speaker 1: be like, you know, asking for money on top of that, Actually, yeah,
Speaker 1: yeah you could do it. You could definitely. She was
Speaker 1: a cute little kid. And also white children are much
Speaker 1: more into man. There's then say black and brown children.
Speaker 1: Hate to say it, but it's true. It's true people
Speaker 1: often times. I mean I have I have a family
Speaker 1: member who they have been waiting to adopt a child
Speaker 1: for five years now because they will only take a
Speaker 1: white boy with no mental handicaps that is an infant,
Speaker 1: because they want it to look like it's there's yeah,
Speaker 1: that makes sense. Like it's like I have a lot
Speaker 1: of good luck with that guys, and a lot of
Speaker 1: personal problems with that notwithstanding, But I know that's the thing.
Speaker 1: A lot of people will pay will solve their problems. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean they will not have a child. Well they will,
Speaker 1: I mean, if they're willing to pay eventually. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: I don't I guess it seems weird that it would
Speaker 1: have been yeah, five five months, right, I mean they
Speaker 1: knew from nine months prior, yeah, you know, and then
Speaker 1: to wait the additional five months and then after five
Speaker 1: months finally be like oh yeah, okay, but you would, yeah,
Speaker 1: you would think that that at that point it would
Speaker 1: have been so attached. But you bond with that baby,
Speaker 1: you yeah, you do, but you never know. I mean,
Speaker 1: maybe she was a really crappy baby. I mean, I know,
Speaker 1: I know you're joking when you say that, but but
Speaker 1: I mean it's yes, I can see how they might
Speaker 1: have decided that they had made that they could not
Speaker 1: sustain a family of three children. You know, they couldn't
Speaker 1: afford it, so they were gonna was gonna use the
Speaker 1: word offload, but that's not the right right where to use.
Speaker 1: They need to give her to another family, and they
Speaker 1: would like to be compensated for doing so. But again,
Speaker 1: that is so easy to do. And from the things
Speaker 1: that I've read about that girl would have been snapped
Speaker 1: up in a heartbeat and they would have been really
Speaker 1: well compensated. So this doesn't make a lick of sense
Speaker 1: to me. Well, it's kind of hard to shop your
Speaker 1: baby around without leaving sort of a trail, Like, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's so, that's that's the reason. I don't know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's there's no such dot com for a reason. But
Speaker 1: there's also like, like this is a really big deal
Speaker 1: to make out of it. I know that this may
Speaker 1: sound like insane, right, but a private deal between like
Speaker 1: two people. I'm sure you get some lawyers involved, but
Speaker 1: there's there's no need for this like national attention, this
Speaker 1: national accusation of you know, oh my god, my baby
Speaker 1: was stolen. If you have given your baby away and
Speaker 1: you've been compensated for it, like yeah, that's all I
Speaker 1: personally like not to be judge or whatever, like I
Speaker 1: think that's weird, but but I mean, people do it
Speaker 1: and then like, but why go that extra mile of
Speaker 1: calling the cops, because I would say, because that sours
Speaker 1: the deal. Well, you know, it's just like what it
Speaker 1: does make your best These people have adopted a baby
Speaker 1: which was is now hot. That does that. But on
Speaker 1: the other hand, you've got this five month old baby
Speaker 1: you told all your friends know about, a family knows
Speaker 1: about it, everybody knows about it, and you gotta say,
Speaker 1: I gotta tell them, hey, we just decided we couldn't
Speaker 1: afford it, so we gave her up for adoption. You're
Speaker 1: probably sort of sort of you know, you know, like
Speaker 1: sort of elite over that part about how you got
Speaker 1: paid money for it. But that's a huge I mean
Speaker 1: that would be I mean, that would be something. I mean,
Speaker 1: can you imagine what your parents would say if you
Speaker 1: had a five month old baby and you want to
Speaker 1: them and said, hey, I got rid of the baby. Yeah, totally, no,
Speaker 1: I totally I understand that concept. But also like, this
Speaker 1: is a lot of attention to draw to that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, it's it's a big sacrifice to make. And
Speaker 1: the thing is, I'm sure that you guys have heard
Speaker 1: the same snippets of the calls I have where Steve
Speaker 1: was on the call and Marlene is in the background
Speaker 1: on the phone with her mom. She is losing her mind.
Speaker 1: She is not rational, She is very wound up. If
Speaker 1: you have just sold your child, that is not what
Speaker 1: you would be like to Again, I understand I sound
Speaker 1: like I'm on their side and it's not intentional, but
Speaker 1: she sounds so effing sincere to me that I'm just like,
Speaker 1: there's I don't see how that's really I think. I
Speaker 1: think our last theory is the best of the theories,
Speaker 1: um which we think we should get onto. You want
Speaker 1: to hear that, well, I don't, but we should talk
Speaker 1: about it anyway. Yeah, now, okay, Yeah, the sold theory
Speaker 1: is I don't know not that great. But my last
Speaker 1: theory is that one of Sabrina's siblings killed her on accident, right,
Speaker 1: I mean or not? Who knows? You know, this thing
Speaker 1: is not as unusual as you think. I did to
Speaker 1: quit Google, and here's some of the headlines that I found.
Speaker 1: So is this uh infanticide? That the phrase? That? Is
Speaker 1: that the correct phrase? There? Now? Now it's something else
Speaker 1: when you when you kill your sibling. I can't remember
Speaker 1: the exact word silicide. I did well side. I think
Speaker 1: that's a side. You're right? Uh, I actually did this
Speaker 1: good job? And really that creached me up. I gotta
Speaker 1: call your brother. Yeah. I actually the search string that
Speaker 1: I used was how often her baby is killed by siblings?
Speaker 1: And here here's some of the headlights that came back
Speaker 1: at me. These are all recent stories. Uh see you
Speaker 1: from Chicago. I don't no excuse me no, this is Florida.
Speaker 1: Two weeks old killed by six year old brother. Mother charged.
Speaker 1: Next one from the UK. Boy twelve stab baby brother
Speaker 1: to death from Rochester, New York police say six year
Speaker 1: old boy killed three year old brother Houston todd This
Speaker 1: is the most gruesome with the bunch. Toddler dies after
Speaker 1: older siblings put her enough and turned it on. I
Speaker 1: really disturbed that Joe screen printed a Google search and
Speaker 1: that's what I recently heard the oven story. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: pretty gruesome. It is, and it was I believe it
Speaker 1: was something like they just they wanted to keep the
Speaker 1: kid warm. It was chilly, and they didn't know how
Speaker 1: to keep her warm, so they were like, get in
Speaker 1: the oven. But their kids and they didn't get it.
Speaker 1: And the implications their parents left them alone, like the
Speaker 1: six year old was in charge of the two like
Speaker 1: younger ones like what are you doing? You know? I
Speaker 1: don't know. I don't I personally would not underestimate the
Speaker 1: molevlens of children, no, but they don't understand the permanence.
Speaker 1: Was also wouldn't underestimate the silliness. And I used the
Speaker 1: word silliness because that's the way children's brains work is
Speaker 1: everything is silly. I once lit a string on fire,
Speaker 1: thinking that it was like the fuse I watched in
Speaker 1: the cartoon. It was gonna go and run down to
Speaker 1: the thing that was blow it, and instead the fire
Speaker 1: ran up and burned my hand. And I couldn't understand
Speaker 1: why that happened. But that's that's the basic brain function.
Speaker 1: That's something every kid has to learn, is that, like
Speaker 1: the stuff that goes on in cartoons and stuff, doesn't
Speaker 1: really work that way in real life. But we see
Speaker 1: it all the time. They see I still see that
Speaker 1: cramp all the time, and so I get it. And
Speaker 1: here's the thing about about kids, And because I've heard it.
Speaker 1: Besides these cases I just mentioned, I've heard of other
Speaker 1: cases to siblings murdering the newborn baby because well, here
Speaker 1: comes the newborn baby and suddenly, you know, I'm not
Speaker 1: the center of attention, I'm not star anymore, and suddenly
Speaker 1: everybody's queuing over the baby. That provokes resentment, and sometimes
Speaker 1: not not often, but sometimes it provokes, you know, some
Speaker 1: sort of murderous thing, and the kids don't realize that
Speaker 1: maybe this is an irrevocable thing, like you said, yeah,
Speaker 1: and you know, they just don't realize that. Yeah. And
Speaker 1: and of course there's also the cartoon violence aspect of
Speaker 1: it too, which is like you know, Tom and Jerry exactly,
Speaker 1: because you see that when you're a little kid, and
Speaker 1: you see that stuff in the cartoons, and the mouse
Speaker 1: claws a cat and chaos a cat. But then the
Speaker 1: cat's back and a whole and safe and fine and
Speaker 1: sound looking for revenge and you know, moments later, and
Speaker 1: or even worse. There's I remember the Tom and Jerry
Speaker 1: cartoons where they would club the cat or the mouse
Speaker 1: and they would get their wings. They go up to
Speaker 1: heaven and they'd run around and then they would just
Speaker 1: slap back down in their body, which means, hey, you
Speaker 1: can come back. It's totally okay, come back, come back. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, so you know, the kids could have it
Speaker 1: could have been motivated by you know, really resentment, jealousy,
Speaker 1: which or just complete total accidental misunderstanding. It could have been. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but that would be It could have been an accident too.
Speaker 1: I mean it could have been it could have been
Speaker 1: like well, it could have been a sort of combined accident,
Speaker 1: like like again cautious, cautious a kid with a with
Speaker 1: a brick, thinking like, hey, it's a cartoons thing, you know,
Speaker 1: it's like and it goes bunk, and even thinking something
Speaker 1: even less malicious, right like um, so you know eight
Speaker 1: year old William creeps into the Brina's. By the way,
Speaker 1: we're not we're not blaming the child, No, no, no,
Speaker 1: I don't blame any of them. We're just right. I'm
Speaker 1: just saying. So, like he creeps in and she looks
Speaker 1: like she might be cold, so he puts like an
Speaker 1: extra blanket over her and covers her face. Right, she's
Speaker 1: five months old, get out totally suffocates. Right, that's not like,
Speaker 1: that's not even a little malicious. Right, It's just an
Speaker 1: error of judgment because he's eight, right, and so like
Speaker 1: something like that can also happen where it's just suddenly.
Speaker 1: But that to me would be if you walked in
Speaker 1: and there was a blanket over the baby's face and
Speaker 1: the baby is now dead. I could easily see somebody
Speaker 1: saying it sid's sudden infant death syndrome, like it's it's not.
Speaker 1: It would be a stretch for the parents go oh, William,
Speaker 1: did you do this? Oh? Well this and so now
Speaker 1: we've had a dispose of you. Just say, William, just
Speaker 1: don't say anything. The doctor is going to come of her,
Speaker 1: mommy and daddy. You're gonna cry and talk and do
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying here, I don't want to
Speaker 1: I don't want to flush the whole thing national thought
Speaker 1: when the last time you had a month against me.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying once the last time you had a
Speaker 1: five month old baby, and then to like undertenn I've
Speaker 1: never had a five month old babies. Like, there are
Speaker 1: some things that happened that you just don't. I think
Speaker 1: that if there if it was a case like that,
Speaker 1: there were no signs of violence, they would have just
Speaker 1: called the ambulance. And yeah, I mean I would think
Speaker 1: that too, But you know, I just I just a
Speaker 1: kid doing something on accident is not insane. I don't hear.
Speaker 1: But I think that there had to be some physical
Speaker 1: signs on the baby, which is one of the problems
Speaker 1: because there's all this you guys have seen this. There's
Speaker 1: all these this enhanced or adjusted imagery stuff that shows
Speaker 1: images of Sabrina days before her disappearance was what looks
Speaker 1: like marks on her. And that is just so it
Speaker 1: is so bad because that that could be anything, that
Speaker 1: could be bad lighting, because somebody is now adjusting the
Speaker 1: photo to call out you know, marks and whatnot. It's
Speaker 1: like remember the the YouTube star. Yes, the dispute was
Speaker 1: like two months ago from when we're recording, two or
Speaker 1: three months ago, and everybody was like taking stills of
Speaker 1: her and then running filters on it and suddenly she
Speaker 1: had all these marks on her body. Is like, well,
Speaker 1: it's just different lighting that you ran through something and
Speaker 1: it showed up different. That doesn't matter. Yeah, but it's
Speaker 1: it's the same thing. It's like people say, well, she
Speaker 1: obviously was bruised and using her she wasn't. Now I'm
Speaker 1: going to get off by soapar Yeah. I think I
Speaker 1: have defended these parents enough. No, no, I think I
Speaker 1: think they can't help it. I think that maybe what
Speaker 1: they were doing was something as understandable is not wanting
Speaker 1: to destroy and before one of the children's lives because
Speaker 1: something horrible happen, and maybe the kid wasn't terrible human being.
Speaker 1: And I got I gotta say, you know, I've never
Speaker 1: I mean, I've never followed up one of these stories.
Speaker 1: But for eight For let's say, a six year old
Speaker 1: or an eight year old who doesn't mean to cause
Speaker 1: the permanent harm of taking the life of their other sibling,
Speaker 1: I mean, they have to go through counseling and stuff
Speaker 1: like that, But it's not as if they are labeled
Speaker 1: a sibling killer and then followed for the rest of
Speaker 1: their life. Now, no, no, it's not not like that.
Speaker 1: But it's just I think that they maybe felt like
Speaker 1: if say, I think they're all give him the chair. No, no,
Speaker 1: of course not. I mean you can't if you can't
Speaker 1: really say that an eight year old or a four
Speaker 1: year old can even form criminal intent. I mean you
Speaker 1: really can't say that. So obviously they're not going to
Speaker 1: haul them away. I actually I think eight is like
Speaker 1: when they start, and that would be that it would
Speaker 1: be like, you know, William would have been the one
Speaker 1: when they start and implement to her and physically. But
Speaker 1: then they and they have to like, you know, prove
Speaker 1: that it was you know, premeditated and like understood what
Speaker 1: he did. And that's when they start being able to
Speaker 1: do that. But I mean, I don't think it was intentional.
Speaker 1: But I also but I also don't know that as
Speaker 1: a parent, I would trust that system right now. I
Speaker 1: would want to keep it quiet. I think, Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: do you guys have any more theories? Yeah? Without yeah,
Speaker 1: without taking this any farther. I mean, I really feel
Speaker 1: like we've taken all of the tread off of this
Speaker 1: pretty much. Yeah, pretty much. But yeah, so I mean
Speaker 1: the parents, I think knew something. I don't know if
Speaker 1: you guys are still believed that I think they knew something.
Speaker 1: Their motives of might not might not have been entirely
Speaker 1: entirely heinous. You know, maybe they were, maybe they would
Speaker 1: maybe they totally murder, but not necessarily. I think it
Speaker 1: was alien abduction. That it's a good one too. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I still think that she's worried about if she's day
Speaker 1: Bobby Johnson. But that's just me because Bobby Johnson, that
Speaker 1: kid needs a haircut, So of course she should be
Speaker 1: worried about dating that guy. Okay, there's Bobby Johnson, that boy, terrible,
Speaker 1: terrible boy. Okay, it's time for a little housekeeping here. Well,
Speaker 1: you probably wonder if we have a website. Well, we
Speaker 1: do find it. It took a while, but yeah, I know, finally,
Speaker 1: but it's called Thinking Sideways podcast dot com. You can
Speaker 1: find us, of course, on Itune, you can stream us
Speaker 1: to billions of websites, and of course it's Google play
Speaker 1: uh in all these places. If you can subscribe, give
Speaker 1: us a rating, give us a review, a really nice
Speaker 1: review that we like those better. Uh. Facebook, we have
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Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways without the g letus. I've read it Thinking Sideways, uh,
Speaker 1: and you'll find that I've read it on read it
Speaker 1: of all pass uh. And we have email of course
Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways podcast at gmail dot com. So if you
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Speaker 1: drop us an email. Uh. And of course if you
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Speaker 1: you can pledge money, like it's like pledge a block
Speaker 1: an episode or whatever. But you will be dinged every
Speaker 1: you know, so I don't think it's the one time thing.
Speaker 1: You get dinged every episode. Yeah, man, of course, you
Speaker 1: know it's totally optional. You don't have to do that
Speaker 1: at all. There's a lot of people who don't contribute
Speaker 1: financially and that's totally cool. It's not a requirement. We
Speaker 1: appreciate it, but it's not a requirement for everybody who's
Speaker 1: doing it. Thank you for being being willing to do so. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's awesome. I mean, if you're not recontributing, try we'll
Speaker 1: try to do something out there, like you know, have
Speaker 1: a blog of your own. Don't talk about unsolved mysteries,
Speaker 1: but have a blog and I want to talk about
Speaker 1: don't steal our thunout. Yeah, you know, contribute to the
Speaker 1: content of the internet, you know. And besides Patreon, of
Speaker 1: course you want if you want to support us, there's
Speaker 1: also merch You can go to a website and buy
Speaker 1: all kinds of cool stuff like mugs and t shirts
Speaker 1: and working on new new stickers and the thing was
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Speaker 1: We're done with this mystery and until next week it's
Speaker 1: um chow by