WEBVTT - Selects: The Collar Bomb Heist

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<v Speaker 1>Hi, everybody. Chuck here curating a specially hen picked selected

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<v Speaker 1>episode and this one's from May twenty eighteen, and boy,

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<v Speaker 1>oh boy, this is a good one. I forgot all

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<v Speaker 1>about this. And this is part of our true crime

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<v Speaker 1>series Not so Grizzly as far as like you know.

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<v Speaker 1>It's not about an axe murder or anything like that.

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<v Speaker 1>It's about a heist and I'd love me some heist.

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<v Speaker 1>And this is called the color Bomb Heist. Welcome to

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<v Speaker 1>Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark with

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<v Speaker 2>Charles W. Chuck Bryant and Jerry's over there, and this

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<v Speaker 2>is Stuff you Should Know, the True Crime edition again.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we've done a few of these, right.

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<v Speaker 2>True crime is so hot right now?

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<v Speaker 1>Hey man, we were dabbling on the periphery of true

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<v Speaker 1>crime when most of these people were wet in their diapers.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right, man, that is right. I'm glad somebody finally

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<v Speaker 2>said it.

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<v Speaker 1>We were occasionally doing a poor job of covering true

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<v Speaker 1>crime ten years ago.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right. We're gonna do it again.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, we continue that great rich history.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because true crime can be extraordinarily interesting, especially when

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<v Speaker 2>you're talking about an extraordinarily over complicated heist that results

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<v Speaker 2>in a man's bizarre death, death by bizarre means, and

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<v Speaker 2>involves what really ultimately, you could make a case as

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<v Speaker 2>an unsolved mystery still today, even though it's technically bureaucratically

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<v Speaker 2>been solved. A lot of people say, no, this thing

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<v Speaker 2>hasn't been solved yet.

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<v Speaker 1>Got homemade bombs, you got a scavenger hunt, got a cracked.

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<v Speaker 2>Dealer, well, you got to have a cracked dealer.

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<v Speaker 1>Got prostitutes, goet pizza.

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<v Speaker 2>And yeah, and let's start with the pizza.

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<v Speaker 1>Geo metro right, which, by the way, I just wanted

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<v Speaker 1>to point out ahead of time, there is no more

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<v Speaker 1>pizza delivery car two thousand and three than a geometro.

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<v Speaker 2>A teal one, no less.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, the thing is, it's almost like they rolled them

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<v Speaker 1>right off the line in two thousand and three with

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<v Speaker 1>just straight to a pizza plates.

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<v Speaker 2>With the pizza guy inside already.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and the little sign magneted on top of.

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<v Speaker 2>It a little crooked yep. So the whole thing does

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<v Speaker 2>start actually with a pizza guy, a pizza place, and

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<v Speaker 2>a teal Geo Metro, And like you said, the whole

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<v Speaker 2>thing starts in two thousand and three in Erie, Pennsylvania,

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<v Speaker 2>and there was a and still is I looked it up.

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<v Speaker 2>There's a pizza place called Mama MIA's Pizza Rhea and

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<v Speaker 2>on the nose, but fine, sure it gets the job

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<v Speaker 2>done right. And at about two pm on August twenty eighth,

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<v Speaker 2>two thousand and three, a pizza delivery guy named Brian Wells,

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<v Speaker 2>I think he was forty six at the time. He

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<v Speaker 2>was about to end his morning shift when a call

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<v Speaker 2>came in for two small sausage and pepperoni pizzas and

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<v Speaker 2>the delivery was I guess the opposite way of where

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<v Speaker 2>Brian Wells was going to go on his way home.

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<v Speaker 2>But he said, you know what, I'll take this one

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<v Speaker 2>last order and he walked out the door at about

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<v Speaker 2>two and the next time that Brian Wells was seen

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<v Speaker 2>in public again, he was entering a PNC bank branch

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<v Speaker 2>just down the street from his pizza place, a few

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<v Speaker 2>miles up the road. And he looked a lot different

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<v Speaker 2>than he did when he left the pizza parlor about

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<v Speaker 2>twenty eight minutes earlier.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so, first of all, he was walking with a cane,

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<v Speaker 1>kind of a funny looking cane, and then under his

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<v Speaker 1>shirt he had clearly and if you've seen the footage

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<v Speaker 1>and the photos, you can see warning by the way,

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<v Speaker 1>for video, it's yeah, for the future, it's quite graphic.

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<v Speaker 2>It's out there, but it is out there.

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<v Speaker 1>But he had clearly some large, boxy looking thing. It

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<v Speaker 1>looked like he was wearing a shoe box around his

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<v Speaker 1>neck with a T shirt pulled over it.

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<v Speaker 2>Kind of but in the teller at the bank's defense,

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<v Speaker 2>could have been an artificial torso and she probably didn't

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<v Speaker 2>want to draw attention to it.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, she was being very kind, right.

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<v Speaker 2>So one thing I want to point out too, there's

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<v Speaker 2>already discrepancy what we're like a minute into the story,

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<v Speaker 2>and there's already a discrepancy that shirt he was wearing

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<v Speaker 2>over that boxy thing underneath his shirt say guess on it.

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<v Speaker 2>And I've seen that it was written somehow, like in

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<v Speaker 2>spray paint or marker, or that it was an actual

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<v Speaker 2>guest Jeans T shirt.

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<v Speaker 1>H really so either an officially license or not licensed

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<v Speaker 1>whatever brand shirt or a homemade, janky spray painted version.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and if you look, the pictures don't really show

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<v Speaker 2>one way or another. Yeah, it looks more like it's homemade.

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<v Speaker 2>And I looked up to see if there was a

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<v Speaker 2>guest shirt that, you know, if I could find the

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<v Speaker 2>actual guest shirt. It wasn't. Couldn't, so I think it

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<v Speaker 2>may have been homemade. Regardless. He's wearing this shirt that

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<v Speaker 2>says guests on and he walks up to the teller

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<v Speaker 2>and he hands the teller a note, and the note says,

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<v Speaker 2>I have a bomb. Get everybody who has access codes

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<v Speaker 2>to the safe together and put two hundred and fifty

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<v Speaker 2>thousand dollars into a bag and bring it to me.

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<v Speaker 2>I think he said, you have fifteen minutes to do.

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<v Speaker 1>This, yeah, which kind of a long time if you're

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<v Speaker 1>a bank robber.

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<v Speaker 2>It is. It's like almost like luxurious around the time.

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<v Speaker 1>What it said, like sixty seconds.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, or this should have happened yesterday. Chop chop, right.

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<v Speaker 2>So he he stands back and waits, apparently grabs a

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<v Speaker 2>dumb dumb lollipop out of the little basket while he's waiting,

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<v Speaker 2>because why not. And the teller says, sir, we don't

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<v Speaker 2>have like we can't get into the safe. That's just

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<v Speaker 2>not how things work. I'm sorry, but as a consolation prize,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm going to put eighty seven hundred and two dollars

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<v Speaker 2>into a bag for you right here and send you

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<v Speaker 2>on your way. Okay.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and importantly we did not mention he lifted his

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<v Speaker 1>shirt up and showed this teller right this this bomb,

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<v Speaker 1>this what's called a collar bomb, strapped around his neck.

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<v Speaker 2>Right. So he walks out of the bank a free man.

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<v Speaker 2>And the next time that he's seen in public is

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<v Speaker 2>about fifteen minutes later, and he's seen in public by

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<v Speaker 2>some Pennsylvania State troopers who are on the lookout for

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<v Speaker 2>this guy. And he's still wearing that shirt, he's still

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<v Speaker 2>got the big bulge, and he's standing around his geometro

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<v Speaker 2>parked in a parking lot that is actually shared with

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<v Speaker 2>that PNC bank and the McDonald's. And he's in a

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<v Speaker 2>parking lot right there. So he left the bank robbery

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<v Speaker 2>and went about one hundred to two hundred feet away

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<v Speaker 2>from it, and that's where he was found like a

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<v Speaker 2>full fifteen minutes later. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>So these these these kappas, these troopers come over and

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<v Speaker 1>he says, hey, guys, this is a bomb around my neck.

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<v Speaker 1>A group of a group of black men chained this

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<v Speaker 1>bomb around my neck at gunpoint, forced me to rob

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<v Speaker 1>this bank for them. I'm not gonna I'm not lying here.

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<v Speaker 1>This thing is gonna go off. So the cops call

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<v Speaker 1>the bomb squad, and they do. I saw, you know

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<v Speaker 1>his The family of Welles is still angry about the

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<v Speaker 1>fact that she says they did nothing to save them.

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<v Speaker 2>But I would be too.

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<v Speaker 1>By the way, we should, shout out Wired magazine.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yes, we really really should.

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<v Speaker 1>A lot of this came from a great, heavily researched

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<v Speaker 1>story by Rich Shapiro from about eight years ago, called

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<v Speaker 1>the Incredible True Story of the Color Bomb Heights. So

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<v Speaker 1>thank you Rich for your work. But the dude's on

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<v Speaker 1>the ground said, I mean, I kind of remember this happening,

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<v Speaker 1>because when I went and looked at the still images,

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<v Speaker 1>I was like, wait a minute, I've seen this right, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>And it's this guy sitting on the ground with this

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<v Speaker 1>thing around his neck, kind of just waiting, seated on

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<v Speaker 1>the pavement for about twenty five minutes. He says, very interestingly,

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<v Speaker 1>like did you call my boss at the pizza place?

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<v Speaker 1>And then all of a sudden, this bomb starts beeping fast,

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<v Speaker 1>which is never a good sign. And when I was

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<v Speaker 1>reading the story, I thought, well, that's just a ruse.

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<v Speaker 1>But no, this thing detonated and killed him. It blasted

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<v Speaker 1>a hole in his chest. It did not blow his

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<v Speaker 1>head off like the internet says. No, But it was

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<v Speaker 1>a violent, awful death.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it was, and it was pretty quick. And then

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<v Speaker 2>three minutes after the bomb goes off, the bomb squad

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<v Speaker 2>showed up. So he's dead. This guy, Brian Wells is dead.

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<v Speaker 2>And the whole time he was protesting, he's like, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>this is I was forced to rob the bank. Are

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<v Speaker 2>you guys going to get this off of me or what? Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>he said something like did you call my boss? Because

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<v Speaker 2>apparently he was a very loyal employee. He'd been working

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<v Speaker 2>at Mamma MIA's for how long, like ten years or

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<v Speaker 2>something like that, for years and years, and he'd only

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<v Speaker 2>called in late once, not even sick late, once when

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<v Speaker 2>his cat died, said Rich Shapiro in that Wired article.

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<v Speaker 2>So it seemed like he actually was telling the truth

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<v Speaker 2>that he had been abducted and forced to rob the

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<v Speaker 2>bank and then had been a victim. I think the

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<v Speaker 2>bomb going off really kind of put an exclamation point

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<v Speaker 2>on his story that he was not a willing participant

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<v Speaker 2>in this, right.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So the cops obviously check out that geo metro

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<v Speaker 1>and it's sweet, sweet styling, and they saw his cane

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<v Speaker 1>and there turns out the reason why Cain was funny

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<v Speaker 1>looking is because it was also a gun.

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<v Speaker 2>And it really looks a lot like a gun.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah when you when you look at it, the bomb

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<v Speaker 1>was clearly homemade. I had a couple of different parts

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<v Speaker 1>to it. It was this this banded metal collar that

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<v Speaker 1>he wore around his neck. It was like locked to

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<v Speaker 1>his neck, had four key holes, and then a combination lock.

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<v Speaker 2>It was really locked to his neck.

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<v Speaker 1>And then an iron box with two pipe bombs loaded

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<v Speaker 1>up ready to go. And then interestingly, and this will

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<v Speaker 1>figure put a pin in this one because this will

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<v Speaker 1>figure in the in the case later. It had two

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<v Speaker 1>kitchen timers in there in addition to an elect an

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<v Speaker 1>electronic countdown timer yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Which was I guess the thing that started beeping faster

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<v Speaker 2>and faster.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. And then some decoy wires. You always got to

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<v Speaker 1>have those if you're if you're making a bomb.

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<v Speaker 2>Sure, but I mean, like that's pretty smart. So there's

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<v Speaker 2>decoy wires that were apparently also stickers that said like

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<v Speaker 2>don't do it or you know, skull and crossbones or

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<v Speaker 2>rat pois and whatever, getty and sweet. Yeah, and oh

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<v Speaker 2>that's a good nine to five reference.

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<v Speaker 1>I just saw that the other night.

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<v Speaker 2>So it was a it was a homemade bomb, but

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<v Speaker 2>it was by all accounts a well made bomb too,

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<v Speaker 2>and it worked, which I think is one of the

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<v Speaker 2>big the big questions about any homemade bomb is whether

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<v Speaker 2>it will actually work or not. And this one worked.

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<v Speaker 2>It's with deadly effect, that's right.

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<v Speaker 1>So the most important thing they found in this car, though,

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<v Speaker 1>were some letters, some handwritten notes addressed to bomb hostage.

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<v Speaker 1>So one of them said, I mean, these were instructions

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<v Speaker 1>basically on what this guy should do, which further kind

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<v Speaker 1>of cemented like, hey, this guy's probably telling the truth.

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<v Speaker 1>It said, yeah, go rob this bank of two hundred

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<v Speaker 1>and fifty grand, and then very strangely outlined this little

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<v Speaker 1>scavenger hunt basically to where eventually you will land upon

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<v Speaker 1>the keys to in common nation to get you out

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<v Speaker 1>of this thing by going all over town and finding

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<v Speaker 1>these various hidden notes, and at the last note you

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<v Speaker 1>will you will be able to free yourself.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the last one will give you the keys and

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<v Speaker 2>the combination. But you better hurry because you have a

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<v Speaker 2>limited amount of time. If you stop and think you're

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<v Speaker 2>going to waste time, you're going to die. We can

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<v Speaker 2>detonate this remotely, and we're going to be following you.

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<v Speaker 2>It was written pretty crazily. Have you read any of

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<v Speaker 2>the note? Oh yeah, yeah, So like it's it's got

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of like just like a lot of jump

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<v Speaker 2>jump cuts and or jump scares in it, you know,

0:12:35.559 --> 0:12:38.120
<v Speaker 2>like you'll it's like go do this and and then

0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:40.559
<v Speaker 2>go do that after that, and then don't try anything funny.

0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:42.640
<v Speaker 2>We're gonna blow you up, you know. Yeah, it has

0:12:42.720 --> 0:12:45.400
<v Speaker 2>those every once in a while. And there's drawings in

0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:47.880
<v Speaker 2>there of where he could find like like the notes

0:12:47.920 --> 0:12:49.720
<v Speaker 2>and all that. So that he made it as far

0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:52.960
<v Speaker 2>as the first note, which was McDonald's. It was in

0:12:53.000 --> 0:12:55.160
<v Speaker 2>that that McDonald's that shared a parking lot with the

0:12:55.200 --> 0:12:57.600
<v Speaker 2>P and C Bank. That was where the first note was.

0:12:57.640 --> 0:13:01.040
<v Speaker 2>So he made it to that that McDonald's grab that note,

0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:05.880
<v Speaker 2>and that note was directing him out of town to

0:13:06.200 --> 0:13:08.560
<v Speaker 2>another note, and he didn't make it that far. But

0:13:08.600 --> 0:13:10.000
<v Speaker 2>when the cops caught up with him.

0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:13.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so the scavenger hunt was, like you said, he

0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:16.560
<v Speaker 1>had gotten just to the one place so the cops

0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:20.760
<v Speaker 1>then say, well, here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna

0:13:20.800 --> 0:13:22.079
<v Speaker 1>complete this scavenger hunt.

0:13:22.440 --> 0:13:25.280
<v Speaker 2>They were like, whoa, you just blew my mind. That's

0:13:25.280 --> 0:13:26.480
<v Speaker 2>some great policing.

0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:30.680
<v Speaker 1>Should we take a break? Sure, all right, scavenger hunt

0:13:30.760 --> 0:13:33.400
<v Speaker 1>is just started by the Kappas. We'll be right back.

0:13:59.000 --> 0:13:59.920
<v Speaker 1>All right, we're back.

0:14:00.280 --> 0:14:04.080
<v Speaker 2>So the scavenger hunt still on, Chuck, and they make it.

0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:09.439
<v Speaker 2>The cops follow from the note that Brian Wells had

0:14:09.760 --> 0:14:12.199
<v Speaker 2>to the next clue, and they found the next note

0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:15.480
<v Speaker 2>and that directed them to another place even further out

0:14:15.520 --> 0:14:18.840
<v Speaker 2>of town to where they found the jar where the

0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:20.760
<v Speaker 2>note was supposed to be. But the note was gone.

0:14:21.360 --> 0:14:23.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and they don't really know what that means. They

0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:26.080
<v Speaker 1>didn't know if it was just something to keep them

0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:30.200
<v Speaker 1>busy preoccupied. They didn't know if the person who was

0:14:30.760 --> 0:14:33.800
<v Speaker 1>designing this scavenger hunt got interrupted or knew that the

0:14:33.800 --> 0:14:35.640
<v Speaker 1>cops were around and they were doing it sort of

0:14:35.680 --> 0:14:39.760
<v Speaker 1>in real time. But at any rate, unfortunately, this scavenger

0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:41.280
<v Speaker 1>hunt just kind of pizzled out. Because that was kind

0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:42.240
<v Speaker 1>of a cool part of the story.

0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:45.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it really was. It was like, it's one of

0:14:45.040 --> 0:14:49.480
<v Speaker 2>the things that makes this just an incredibly bizarre crime. Yeah,

0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:51.920
<v Speaker 2>why the scavenger hunt, It's going to keep coming up

0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:56.200
<v Speaker 2>again and again. Right, So, when the scavenger hunt ran out,

0:14:56.320 --> 0:14:58.920
<v Speaker 2>the trail actually went cold. The case started to get

0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:02.480
<v Speaker 2>cold for a few months. The cops sniffed around Brian Wells,

0:15:02.480 --> 0:15:05.800
<v Speaker 2>tried to figure out, you know, why him, what happened

0:15:05.800 --> 0:15:08.000
<v Speaker 2>with him, And they went back to his place of

0:15:08.040 --> 0:15:12.560
<v Speaker 2>employment and they kind of checked out the kind of

0:15:12.560 --> 0:15:13.880
<v Speaker 2>person he was, right.

0:15:14.800 --> 0:15:16.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And they very smartly said, well, wait a minute,

0:15:16.800 --> 0:15:18.960
<v Speaker 1>why don't we why don't we check out what that

0:15:19.040 --> 0:15:20.880
<v Speaker 1>last delivery was supposed to be? There may be a

0:15:20.880 --> 0:15:25.160
<v Speaker 1>clue there. And it was an interesting place was at

0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:27.640
<v Speaker 1>the was you could only get there by dirt road

0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:31.200
<v Speaker 1>and it was right next to a TV transmission tower

0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:34.760
<v Speaker 1>in a kind of a remote wooded area, right, and

0:15:36.200 --> 0:15:40.440
<v Speaker 1>cops combed the area, found shoe prints that matched Wells.

0:15:40.440 --> 0:15:46.520
<v Speaker 1>They found those classic iconic geometro tire tracks that everyone

0:15:46.720 --> 0:15:51.920
<v Speaker 1>recognizes by sight. But there really weren't any more clues

0:15:51.960 --> 0:15:54.760
<v Speaker 1>as far as the cops were concerned at that location.

0:15:55.400 --> 0:15:57.240
<v Speaker 1>So where the cops had found a dead end, a

0:15:57.320 --> 0:16:01.560
<v Speaker 1>reporter and photographer for the Eerie Times News went and

0:16:01.560 --> 0:16:05.560
<v Speaker 1>did a little investiating his own and saw this house,

0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:08.080
<v Speaker 1>you know, next door where the pizza was delivered, and said, well,

0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:09.480
<v Speaker 1>you know, I'm just gonna go knock on the door.

0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:13.760
<v Speaker 1>This guy answers the door, and his name was Bill Rostein,

0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:15.920
<v Speaker 1>and he actually said, you know, you can look around

0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:18.680
<v Speaker 1>if you want. He's fifty nine years old, he's a handyman,

0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:21.760
<v Speaker 1>wasn't married, he'd lived there his whole life, and apparently

0:16:21.800 --> 0:16:27.920
<v Speaker 1>he seemed really smart, had a very articulate way of speaking,

0:16:27.920 --> 0:16:31.400
<v Speaker 1>and apparently was fluent in several different languages. And the

0:16:31.480 --> 0:16:34.720
<v Speaker 1>journalist kind of did a little poking around and didn't

0:16:34.760 --> 0:16:38.600
<v Speaker 1>really see much and took off, But he made contact

0:16:39.040 --> 0:16:41.880
<v Speaker 1>with Bill Rothstein. He's the first person that kind of

0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:42.720
<v Speaker 1>was went to.

0:16:42.800 --> 0:16:46.200
<v Speaker 2>Knocking, right, But nothing came of it, and the cops,

0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:48.840
<v Speaker 2>as far as I know, never went and met with

0:16:48.920 --> 0:16:52.120
<v Speaker 2>Bill Rothstein, even thoughse houses right next to the delivery

0:16:52.120 --> 0:16:57.440
<v Speaker 2>place where Wells was supposedly accosted. Right. Yeah, and then

0:16:57.960 --> 0:17:00.400
<v Speaker 2>a few like I said, the case is gone cold

0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:03.280
<v Speaker 2>by this time, A couple of months have gone by

0:17:03.560 --> 0:17:07.480
<v Speaker 2>the whole I mean, you've got this crime, this very

0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:11.600
<v Speaker 2>public caper that's captured the public's attention. A guy died

0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:15.600
<v Speaker 2>by being blown up while the while under police supervision.

0:17:16.000 --> 0:17:20.760
<v Speaker 2>And there's no leads, there's no nothing. And then finally, uh,

0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:24.320
<v Speaker 2>several weeks, a few months, I think after the call,

0:17:25.440 --> 0:17:29.080
<v Speaker 2>there's a nine to one one call from Bill Rothstein

0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:33.240
<v Speaker 2>and he tells the police that in his freezer he

0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:37.040
<v Speaker 2>has one of those serial killer chest freezers, there's actually

0:17:37.200 --> 0:17:41.920
<v Speaker 2>a body, a man's body, and that it was it

0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:45.479
<v Speaker 2>is not someone he murdered, but he helped cover up

0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:49.280
<v Speaker 2>the murder of this man who was the boyfriend of

0:17:49.320 --> 0:17:52.760
<v Speaker 2>Bill Rothstein's ex girlfriend from way way back in the day.

0:17:53.280 --> 0:17:58.800
<v Speaker 2>And now the chain of events has been set off, right.

0:17:58.960 --> 0:18:02.280
<v Speaker 1>And if you're like me and you start hearing wife

0:18:02.280 --> 0:18:05.560
<v Speaker 1>of the ex girlfriend's dad's cousin, your brain gets a

0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:09.640
<v Speaker 1>little jumbled. So just very plainly, he used to date

0:18:09.680 --> 0:18:13.760
<v Speaker 1>this woman. This woman called him up and said, hey,

0:18:13.960 --> 0:18:17.160
<v Speaker 1>I've murdered my current boyfriend or was it her husband?

0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:20.240
<v Speaker 2>It was her boyfriend, yeah, And she.

0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:23.359
<v Speaker 1>Said, and I need your help here. I blasted him

0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:27.720
<v Speaker 1>with a shotgun. And I know we tated, oh twenty

0:18:27.840 --> 0:18:30.480
<v Speaker 1>years ago, but will you come help me out? Because

0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:33.200
<v Speaker 1>they were still in contact, I guess they remained friends.

0:18:33.000 --> 0:18:34.679
<v Speaker 2>I guess. So in this rack.

0:18:34.600 --> 0:18:37.840
<v Speaker 1>To Bill Rosstein, apparently he thought about committing suicide. Apparently

0:18:37.920 --> 0:18:40.520
<v Speaker 1>there was even a note. They found a suicide note,

0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:43.199
<v Speaker 1>but he maintained, like you said, with the cops, that

0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:47.200
<v Speaker 1>he didn't have anything to do with anything but most

0:18:47.240 --> 0:18:48.360
<v Speaker 1>of the cleanup.

0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:51.640
<v Speaker 2>The cleanup, getting rid of the murder weapon and then

0:18:52.320 --> 0:18:53.520
<v Speaker 2>holding onto the body.

0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:55.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but which the reason he held on the body

0:18:55.880 --> 0:18:58.240
<v Speaker 1>he was supposed to get apparently supposed to grind this

0:18:58.320 --> 0:19:00.840
<v Speaker 1>body up. And that's where he finally stopped short and

0:19:01.000 --> 0:19:02.480
<v Speaker 1>was like, Jesus, I can't do this.

0:19:02.760 --> 0:19:04.720
<v Speaker 2>And he said he told the cops that the reason

0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:07.520
<v Speaker 2>he called them finally was because since he wasn't going

0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:09.800
<v Speaker 2>through with grinding up the body, he was worried what

0:19:09.880 --> 0:19:13.680
<v Speaker 2>this woman, Marjorie deal Armstrong was going to do to him.

0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:16.560
<v Speaker 1>He's like, I dated this lady, right, She's not a

0:19:16.640 --> 0:19:17.240
<v Speaker 1>nice person.

0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:20.560
<v Speaker 2>And so when he says Marjorie deal Armstrong to the

0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:24.920
<v Speaker 2>eerie cops, just alarm bells start going off because by

0:19:24.960 --> 0:19:28.320
<v Speaker 2>this time, already Marjorie deal Armstrong was a local legend

0:19:28.400 --> 0:19:32.040
<v Speaker 2>as far as criminals are concerned. She was this very

0:19:32.119 --> 0:19:36.840
<v Speaker 2>very bright woman who I think at the age of

0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:40.520
<v Speaker 2>thirty five back in the eighties, had been indicted for

0:19:40.680 --> 0:19:44.960
<v Speaker 2>killing one of her boyfriends, shot him six times. She

0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:47.080
<v Speaker 2>played that she had killed him in self defense, that

0:19:47.160 --> 0:19:50.480
<v Speaker 2>he was an abuser of her, and she was actually acquitted.

0:19:51.320 --> 0:19:53.600
<v Speaker 2>A few years after that, she was married to a

0:19:53.640 --> 0:19:57.800
<v Speaker 2>guy named Armstrong, and he showed up at the hospital

0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:02.080
<v Speaker 2>with a head trauma and actually died of a cerebral hemorrhage.

0:20:02.240 --> 0:20:05.120
<v Speaker 2>But there was no coroner's in quest or anything like that,

0:20:05.520 --> 0:20:08.280
<v Speaker 2>and so it just was something suspicious, you know, the

0:20:08.359 --> 0:20:12.960
<v Speaker 2>second second significant other of this woman to die under

0:20:13.040 --> 0:20:17.800
<v Speaker 2>suspicious or violent circumstances. So when Bill Rothstein said, I'm

0:20:17.840 --> 0:20:20.000
<v Speaker 2>worried about what Marjorie deal Armstrong is going to do

0:20:20.040 --> 0:20:23.200
<v Speaker 2>to me, the cops seemed to have taken it very seriously.

0:20:23.080 --> 0:20:27.080
<v Speaker 1>Well, extremely seriously, because the next day they arrested her.

0:20:27.359 --> 0:20:28.960
<v Speaker 2>That's pretty serious for murder.

0:20:29.840 --> 0:20:31.640
<v Speaker 1>And about a year and a half later, a little

0:20:31.640 --> 0:20:35.840
<v Speaker 1>short of that, she pled guilty but mentally ill. She

0:20:35.960 --> 0:20:42.119
<v Speaker 1>was sentenced to seven to twenty and then Rothstein, for

0:20:42.200 --> 0:20:45.560
<v Speaker 1>his part, eventually died of cancer in two thousand and four.

0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:49.520
<v Speaker 2>Right, and so you said that he had considered killing

0:20:49.600 --> 0:20:52.479
<v Speaker 2>himself and even wrote a suicide note, right, Yeah, there

0:20:52.520 --> 0:20:56.560
<v Speaker 2>was something very very odd on Bill Rothstein's suicide note.

0:20:56.640 --> 0:20:58.560
<v Speaker 2>And again he didn't kill himself, he died of cancer,

0:20:58.600 --> 0:21:01.080
<v Speaker 2>but he was able to actually show the cops where

0:21:01.119 --> 0:21:03.359
<v Speaker 2>a suicide note was and they read it, and the

0:21:03.400 --> 0:21:06.240
<v Speaker 2>first line of it, from what I understand, was this

0:21:06.320 --> 0:21:10.960
<v Speaker 2>has nothing to do with the collar bomb heist or

0:21:11.000 --> 0:21:12.560
<v Speaker 2>the Brian Wells murder.

0:21:13.240 --> 0:21:17.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's a it's a weird thing to put if

0:21:17.160 --> 0:21:19.440
<v Speaker 1>you had nothing to do with that, you know.

0:21:20.080 --> 0:21:22.359
<v Speaker 2>Right, that's just a very odd thing to do.

0:21:22.520 --> 0:21:24.160
<v Speaker 1>It's like when the cops come in and you go,

0:21:24.359 --> 0:21:26.680
<v Speaker 1>there's nothing under the bed, don't don't there's no reason

0:21:26.680 --> 0:21:28.680
<v Speaker 1>to look there, right, They.

0:21:28.640 --> 0:21:30.719
<v Speaker 2>Said, we just want to make sure your fire alarm

0:21:30.840 --> 0:21:33.840
<v Speaker 2>is working. Yeah, exactly, part of a community service.

0:21:34.000 --> 0:21:35.200
<v Speaker 1>Cool, but the bed's fine.

0:21:35.960 --> 0:21:38.880
<v Speaker 2>Right, So that is a very weird thing to say,

0:21:38.880 --> 0:21:41.000
<v Speaker 2>and that definitely piqud the interest of the cops. But

0:21:41.400 --> 0:21:44.960
<v Speaker 2>like you said, the cops convicted, or the state convicted

0:21:45.480 --> 0:21:50.840
<v Speaker 2>Marjorie deal Armstrong of the murder of James Roden or

0:21:50.920 --> 0:21:54.520
<v Speaker 2>Jim Roden. Right. Yeah, she's already in prison, and when

0:21:54.560 --> 0:21:59.080
<v Speaker 2>she's in prison, somehow this is what I'm unclear on

0:21:59.720 --> 0:22:03.639
<v Speaker 2>somehow it comes up or she starts talking or something

0:22:03.720 --> 0:22:08.159
<v Speaker 2>like that, that Jim Roden's death very much had to

0:22:08.200 --> 0:22:11.520
<v Speaker 2>do with the Wells case with Brian Wells murder, this

0:22:11.640 --> 0:22:16.120
<v Speaker 2>collar bomb heist, and that she knows a lot about it,

0:22:16.400 --> 0:22:19.800
<v Speaker 2>and if they'll transfer her to a minimum security prison

0:22:19.840 --> 0:22:22.399
<v Speaker 2>close to Eerie, she'll she'll start talking.

0:22:23.320 --> 0:22:25.240
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, she has for the old Hannibal lecture treatment.

0:22:25.560 --> 0:22:27.880
<v Speaker 2>So is that how it came up, like she approached them,

0:22:27.920 --> 0:22:29.480
<v Speaker 2>because I'm unclear on that.

0:22:30.160 --> 0:22:32.399
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I think so. This is in the Wired article,

0:22:32.400 --> 0:22:38.000
<v Speaker 1>it said that that there was a phone call from

0:22:38.040 --> 0:22:40.960
<v Speaker 1>a state cop who had just met with her about

0:22:40.960 --> 0:22:45.960
<v Speaker 1>something unrelated, like a different homicide, and she just and

0:22:46.320 --> 0:22:48.280
<v Speaker 1>it kind of makes sense though now actually when we

0:22:48.880 --> 0:22:54.120
<v Speaker 1>as we will learn she talked a lot, Yeah, a lot.

0:22:54.520 --> 0:22:57.159
<v Speaker 1>So it doesn't surprise me that another cop was just

0:22:57.359 --> 0:23:00.080
<v Speaker 1>meeting with her about something unrelated. She's like, bye, by

0:23:00.119 --> 0:23:02.840
<v Speaker 1>the way, that whole collar bomb thing, I got all

0:23:02.880 --> 0:23:04.000
<v Speaker 1>the skinny on that.

0:23:04.359 --> 0:23:06.760
<v Speaker 2>Right, So there's a couple of things going on here.

0:23:06.800 --> 0:23:10.159
<v Speaker 2>By then, by the time she calls the cops, the

0:23:10.200 --> 0:23:14.639
<v Speaker 2>cops have already spoken, apparently with several informants that have

0:23:14.720 --> 0:23:17.280
<v Speaker 2>shared cells with her or spent time with her in

0:23:17.359 --> 0:23:22.119
<v Speaker 2>jail already, who are saying like this lady is the

0:23:22.160 --> 0:23:24.879
<v Speaker 2>mastermind of that collar bomb heightst that's making you guys

0:23:24.880 --> 0:23:25.840
<v Speaker 2>look bad.

0:23:26.760 --> 0:23:28.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and eventually, you know, when they met with her

0:23:28.640 --> 0:23:35.320
<v Speaker 1>about this, she admitted that she was involved, but well,

0:23:35.560 --> 0:23:37.359
<v Speaker 1>she didn't met she was involved in the plot, but

0:23:37.440 --> 0:23:40.320
<v Speaker 1>she said, I knew about it. I gave him, I

0:23:40.320 --> 0:23:43.720
<v Speaker 1>gave him those two kitchen timers, and I was really

0:23:43.720 --> 0:23:48.000
<v Speaker 1>close by when it happened. And by the way, the

0:23:48.080 --> 0:23:50.600
<v Speaker 1>guy who blew up with the collar bomb, mister Wells,

0:23:51.119 --> 0:23:54.280
<v Speaker 1>he was actually in on it too and Lostein headed

0:23:54.320 --> 0:23:55.240
<v Speaker 1>the whole thing up.

0:23:55.320 --> 0:23:58.320
<v Speaker 2>Right by for her, Deil Armstrong, she said, But I

0:23:58.359 --> 0:24:00.639
<v Speaker 2>had nothing to do with it. I had all these

0:24:00.680 --> 0:24:02.920
<v Speaker 2>other little things to do with it. I never met

0:24:02.960 --> 0:24:05.320
<v Speaker 2>Brian Wells. I didn't know Brian Wells. I had nothing

0:24:05.359 --> 0:24:07.919
<v Speaker 2>to do with his death aside from supplying the kitchen

0:24:07.920 --> 0:24:14.000
<v Speaker 2>timers and knowing at it right exactly. So now it's

0:24:14.040 --> 0:24:17.320
<v Speaker 2>just getting weird, right because there's the Jim Roden murder,

0:24:18.080 --> 0:24:20.879
<v Speaker 2>who she says that she killed because he was abusing her,

0:24:21.000 --> 0:24:24.320
<v Speaker 2>who Rothstein said she killed over a dispute with money,

0:24:25.400 --> 0:24:29.560
<v Speaker 2>but is now she's saying is tied to the Wells case,

0:24:30.440 --> 0:24:34.040
<v Speaker 2>and which she knows a lot about but really nothing

0:24:34.080 --> 0:24:37.119
<v Speaker 2>about and had nothing to do with. So the cops

0:24:37.160 --> 0:24:38.920
<v Speaker 2>are like, well, let's just get this lad to talk

0:24:38.960 --> 0:24:41.800
<v Speaker 2>all we can. And one of the things they got

0:24:41.800 --> 0:24:44.400
<v Speaker 2>out of her was her she agreed to a tour

0:24:45.320 --> 0:24:48.640
<v Speaker 2>around Eerie, showing them all these places where she had been,

0:24:49.240 --> 0:24:52.359
<v Speaker 2>and these were all places that were related to the crime.

0:24:52.560 --> 0:24:55.000
<v Speaker 2>Like I believe she said she'd been at the pizza

0:24:55.040 --> 0:24:58.359
<v Speaker 2>delivery site. I think she said she'd been within a

0:24:58.400 --> 0:25:01.560
<v Speaker 2>mile of the of the bank when it was robbed,

0:25:01.880 --> 0:25:04.119
<v Speaker 2>Like all of this stuff. She's just like, they just

0:25:04.200 --> 0:25:06.320
<v Speaker 2>keep giving her this rope and she's just wrapping it

0:25:06.359 --> 0:25:09.320
<v Speaker 2>around her neck again and again and again and then

0:25:09.400 --> 0:25:12.600
<v Speaker 2>finally chuck at the end of this car ride, after

0:25:12.640 --> 0:25:17.080
<v Speaker 2>she's been interviewing with the cops multiple times, giving him

0:25:17.119 --> 0:25:19.120
<v Speaker 2>tons of info, what does she say?

0:25:19.600 --> 0:25:23.520
<v Speaker 1>She asked for immunity at this point, after she had

0:25:24.119 --> 0:25:29.959
<v Speaker 1>basically completely incriminated herself, and previous to all this, a

0:25:29.960 --> 0:25:33.040
<v Speaker 1>lot more happened. There were four different informants who had

0:25:33.080 --> 0:25:36.000
<v Speaker 1>come forward and said that this lady's been talking about

0:25:36.000 --> 0:25:38.600
<v Speaker 1>this for a while. She very much had everything to

0:25:38.600 --> 0:25:41.760
<v Speaker 1>do with it. And then a couple of months after

0:25:41.920 --> 0:25:45.440
<v Speaker 1>she had started talking to the Feds, another big break came.

0:25:45.520 --> 0:25:49.680
<v Speaker 1>This witness came forward and said, Hey, there's this crack

0:25:49.760 --> 0:25:53.560
<v Speaker 1>dealer named Kenny Barnes. That is a crack dealer's name,

0:25:54.200 --> 0:25:57.679
<v Speaker 1>Kenneth Barnes, and he was involved. They used to go

0:25:57.720 --> 0:26:03.040
<v Speaker 1>fishing together. Armstrong deal Armstrong in Barnes, and she sang

0:26:03.119 --> 0:26:06.000
<v Speaker 1>like a canary to him basically, and said, here's what

0:26:06.080 --> 0:26:09.639
<v Speaker 1>she did. She her brother in law put him in

0:26:09.680 --> 0:26:14.080
<v Speaker 1>touch with Barnes while he was already in jail on

0:26:14.240 --> 0:26:18.240
<v Speaker 1>unrelated chart charges basically, And so Barnes was already in prison,

0:26:18.359 --> 0:26:21.040
<v Speaker 1>said hey, I think I can shorten my time, So

0:26:21.240 --> 0:26:23.199
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to try and get a reduced sentence at

0:26:23.280 --> 0:26:25.840
<v Speaker 1>least by spilling the beans on deal Armstrong.

0:26:26.119 --> 0:26:29.239
<v Speaker 2>Right, And Barnes's brother in law was who turned him

0:26:29.320 --> 0:26:30.080
<v Speaker 2>into the cops.

0:26:30.080 --> 0:26:30.800
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah.

0:26:31.040 --> 0:26:34.359
<v Speaker 2>So Barnes is like, I'm already I'm in jail for

0:26:34.440 --> 0:26:38.280
<v Speaker 2>selling crack. That's way different from being you know, very

0:26:38.359 --> 0:26:42.360
<v Speaker 2>much involved in this collar bomb heist. So he said, okay,

0:26:42.440 --> 0:26:44.320
<v Speaker 2>I'll tell you guys everything you want to know. I'll

0:26:44.320 --> 0:26:47.920
<v Speaker 2>be your star witness. Just reduce my sentence in this

0:26:48.280 --> 0:26:52.600
<v Speaker 2>for my involvement in this. And he started talking. When

0:26:52.640 --> 0:26:59.159
<v Speaker 2>he started talking, it was at Marjorie deal Armstrong's trial,

0:26:59.680 --> 0:27:03.480
<v Speaker 2>which was a pretty spectacular trial from all accounts.

0:27:03.760 --> 0:27:06.639
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and before the trial even he told his story

0:27:06.840 --> 0:27:09.520
<v Speaker 1>was is that she wanted me to kill her father.

0:27:10.440 --> 0:27:13.800
<v Speaker 1>He was spending what would end up being her inheritance,

0:27:14.040 --> 0:27:18.080
<v Speaker 1>she felt, and so she wanted him dead. And so

0:27:18.560 --> 0:27:22.919
<v Speaker 1>she was doing this collar bomb heist to raise money

0:27:23.000 --> 0:27:24.760
<v Speaker 1>to pay me to kill her dad.

0:27:25.119 --> 0:27:28.720
<v Speaker 2>Which I mean, like that's just the biggest face poem

0:27:28.720 --> 0:27:33.159
<v Speaker 2>I've ever heard of. Yeah for a real So, okay,

0:27:33.160 --> 0:27:37.240
<v Speaker 2>we'll start Marjorie deil Armstrong's trial after we take a break.

0:27:37.240 --> 0:27:37.880
<v Speaker 2>How about that man?

0:27:37.960 --> 0:27:38.600
<v Speaker 1>That sounds good?

0:27:38.760 --> 0:28:08.400
<v Speaker 2>Okay, okay, chuck. So before Marjorie deil Armstrong goes to trial,

0:28:08.440 --> 0:28:10.560
<v Speaker 2>and remember, she's already in prison for the murder of

0:28:10.680 --> 0:28:13.080
<v Speaker 2>Jim Rodin right, shooting him in the back with a

0:28:13.080 --> 0:28:18.280
<v Speaker 2>twelve gage shotgun. Yes, Bill Rothstein is dead. I want

0:28:18.280 --> 0:28:21.120
<v Speaker 2>to call him, Ah Rostein. So Ace Rothstein's so bad.

0:28:21.880 --> 0:28:25.239
<v Speaker 2>But Bill Rothstein is dead. He died of lymphoma. A

0:28:25.280 --> 0:28:28.720
<v Speaker 2>couple of years before, and by the time Marjorie deil

0:28:28.800 --> 0:28:33.560
<v Speaker 2>Armstrong is brought to trial for her involvement as the

0:28:33.760 --> 0:28:39.040
<v Speaker 2>mastermind of the collar bomb plot, they have to they

0:28:39.080 --> 0:28:43.200
<v Speaker 2>have to verify that she's actually mentally competent to stand trial.

0:28:43.600 --> 0:28:48.120
<v Speaker 2>And that's kind of touchy because remember when she she

0:28:48.600 --> 0:28:51.400
<v Speaker 2>was charged with killing her boyfriend back in I think

0:28:51.480 --> 0:28:55.040
<v Speaker 2>nineteen eighty four, nineteen eighty six, Yeah, she was. She

0:28:55.240 --> 0:29:00.840
<v Speaker 2>was deemed incompetent seven times by psychiatrists before for the

0:29:00.960 --> 0:29:04.360
<v Speaker 2>judge finally said I'm throwing all that out and deciding

0:29:04.360 --> 0:29:06.160
<v Speaker 2>that she is competent, We're going to go ahead with

0:29:06.200 --> 0:29:09.760
<v Speaker 2>the trial. Yes, they also found like four hundred pounds

0:29:09.760 --> 0:29:13.479
<v Speaker 2>of butter and seven hundred pounds of cheese in her

0:29:14.360 --> 0:29:17.680
<v Speaker 2>in her house when they were investigating that particular murder.

0:29:18.480 --> 0:29:20.800
<v Speaker 2>And in between nineteen eighty four, in the time she

0:29:20.880 --> 0:29:24.200
<v Speaker 2>was tried in the collar bomb heist, she had been

0:29:24.240 --> 0:29:29.040
<v Speaker 2>diagnosed with bipolar disorder, so there it was actually kind

0:29:29.040 --> 0:29:31.720
<v Speaker 2>of questionable whether she was mentally competent to seand trial,

0:29:32.720 --> 0:29:36.320
<v Speaker 2>And right as they were about to start the proceedings,

0:29:36.640 --> 0:29:38.600
<v Speaker 2>I think the judge ruled that she was competent to

0:29:38.600 --> 0:29:43.280
<v Speaker 2>say and trial. She was diagnosed with cancer herself, that's right.

0:29:43.960 --> 0:29:48.000
<v Speaker 2>So they waited for the cancer diagnosis, her prognosis, and

0:29:48.240 --> 0:29:52.240
<v Speaker 2>the cancer doctor came back and said three to seven years,

0:29:52.760 --> 0:29:54.800
<v Speaker 2>and the prosecutors said, giddy up.

0:29:55.360 --> 0:29:59.000
<v Speaker 1>That's right. So previous to this, she had gotten the indictment.

0:29:59.040 --> 0:30:02.040
<v Speaker 1>But in that indictment, it's very important that she was

0:30:02.240 --> 0:30:05.240
<v Speaker 1>not I mean, granted she was the only one technically indicted,

0:30:05.680 --> 0:30:08.640
<v Speaker 1>but they in the indictment it said that Rothstein was

0:30:08.680 --> 0:30:12.880
<v Speaker 1>definitely a conspirator and Wells, the man who was who

0:30:12.960 --> 0:30:15.960
<v Speaker 1>was the victim, supposedly he was definitely involved in this

0:30:16.040 --> 0:30:17.320
<v Speaker 1>thing from the beginning.

0:30:17.440 --> 0:30:20.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you're absolutely right. As a very important thing that

0:30:20.440 --> 0:30:22.200
<v Speaker 2>that showed up in this indictment.

0:30:22.400 --> 0:30:25.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, they said he agreed to rob this bank, he

0:30:25.080 --> 0:30:28.640
<v Speaker 1>thought it was a fake bomb, and he was told

0:30:28.680 --> 0:30:31.080
<v Speaker 1>this scavenger hunt was a ruse to fool the cops

0:30:31.600 --> 0:30:34.920
<v Speaker 1>and if and when he did get caught, he could say,

0:30:35.200 --> 0:30:37.600
<v Speaker 1>you know, I was just following orders basically what he did.

0:30:37.760 --> 0:30:40.080
<v Speaker 2>Right, And so Brian Wells's family did not like this

0:30:40.400 --> 0:30:45.200
<v Speaker 2>at all. Apparently during the the the press conference where

0:30:45.240 --> 0:30:49.360
<v Speaker 2>the Daaverrie County is announcing this, you know, this case

0:30:49.600 --> 0:30:51.680
<v Speaker 2>case is closed. This is the indictment that they have

0:30:53.120 --> 0:30:56.120
<v Speaker 2>the Wells. Some of Brian Wells's sisters were shouting liar

0:30:56.200 --> 0:30:58.880
<v Speaker 2>at her. They did not take the idea that their

0:30:58.920 --> 0:31:03.080
<v Speaker 2>brother was an accomplice in this at all very well.

0:31:03.280 --> 0:31:05.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean there was a lot of uh, there's

0:31:05.600 --> 0:31:09.000
<v Speaker 1>a lot of back and forth about whether Wells was

0:31:09.040 --> 0:31:12.440
<v Speaker 1>in on the big the thing from the beginning, or

0:31:12.520 --> 0:31:15.120
<v Speaker 1>whether or not he was in from the beginning and

0:31:15.160 --> 0:31:18.040
<v Speaker 1>then at one point wanted out and was forced to

0:31:18.040 --> 0:31:20.160
<v Speaker 1>do this, or whether he was forced from the beginning.

0:31:20.520 --> 0:31:24.520
<v Speaker 1>Everyone's telling a different story. And you know, basically the

0:31:24.560 --> 0:31:27.560
<v Speaker 1>trial is where we will learn, you know, if all

0:31:27.680 --> 0:31:29.080
<v Speaker 1>that is true, what really happened.

0:31:29.560 --> 0:31:34.640
<v Speaker 2>So Marjorie deil Armstrong's lawyers said, you know, to heck

0:31:34.680 --> 0:31:39.280
<v Speaker 2>with with caution, let's put you on the stand. Okay,

0:31:39.760 --> 0:31:43.840
<v Speaker 2>you've already incriminated yourself multiple times. Why not do it

0:31:43.880 --> 0:31:49.000
<v Speaker 2>in open court too, And she apparently was quite a

0:31:50.400 --> 0:31:52.320
<v Speaker 2>She put on quite a performance on the on the

0:31:52.400 --> 0:31:54.560
<v Speaker 2>stand over like two days, I think five and a

0:31:54.600 --> 0:31:59.880
<v Speaker 2>half hours of testimony. She yelled, she cried, she berated

0:32:00.280 --> 0:32:04.240
<v Speaker 2>the prosecutor and her own lawyer. When she did mention

0:32:04.360 --> 0:32:06.760
<v Speaker 2>Brian Wells. She said, I've never met the guy. I

0:32:06.880 --> 0:32:09.800
<v Speaker 2>learned of his death when everybody else did on the

0:32:09.840 --> 0:32:13.480
<v Speaker 2>TV news, And she stuck with her story though that

0:32:14.040 --> 0:32:17.120
<v Speaker 2>she had nothing to do with this. She knew a

0:32:17.120 --> 0:32:20.920
<v Speaker 2>little bit about it. She knew the conspirators. The real

0:32:21.040 --> 0:32:26.120
<v Speaker 2>mastermind was Bill Rothstein, and it wasn't her. That's what

0:32:26.200 --> 0:32:29.800
<v Speaker 2>she maintained though throughout the trial and even afterward.

0:32:30.520 --> 0:32:32.760
<v Speaker 1>That's right. But before she took the stand a few

0:32:32.800 --> 0:32:36.880
<v Speaker 1>days earlier is when they trotted out Ken Barnes and

0:32:36.920 --> 0:32:40.560
<v Speaker 1>he took the stand, and he said he had you know,

0:32:40.640 --> 0:32:42.520
<v Speaker 1>by the time she took the stand, he had given

0:32:42.560 --> 0:32:46.200
<v Speaker 1>a different account of the story than she would later do.

0:32:47.160 --> 0:32:50.480
<v Speaker 1>So he got up there and said she was behind

0:32:50.520 --> 0:32:55.040
<v Speaker 1>all this. She was the mastermind. Rostein was involved. She

0:32:55.160 --> 0:32:59.719
<v Speaker 1>just recruited him. Basically, she recruited Wells because Wells needed money.

0:33:00.000 --> 0:33:03.760
<v Speaker 1>And here's where the prostitutes come into play. Apparently Wells

0:33:04.280 --> 0:33:07.600
<v Speaker 1>had a relationship with a prostitute who was also a

0:33:07.800 --> 0:33:11.160
<v Speaker 1>crack addict, so he would buy crack to give her,

0:33:12.040 --> 0:33:16.520
<v Speaker 1>presumably as trade for sex. He ended up falling into

0:33:16.520 --> 0:33:19.160
<v Speaker 1>debt with these crack dealers and needed money, and.

0:33:19.120 --> 0:33:21.240
<v Speaker 2>So it's basically the plot of Bulin.

0:33:20.960 --> 0:33:28.920
<v Speaker 1>Rouge, and he contends Barnes did that that up until

0:33:28.960 --> 0:33:32.400
<v Speaker 1>the day of the crime, Wells was thought this whole

0:33:32.440 --> 0:33:35.440
<v Speaker 1>thing was fake, realized that it was a double cross,

0:33:35.920 --> 0:33:37.720
<v Speaker 1>it was a real bomb, and he tried to run

0:33:37.720 --> 0:33:41.120
<v Speaker 1>away and was tackled and they put a gun to

0:33:41.160 --> 0:33:42.920
<v Speaker 1>his head and locked him into this device.

0:33:43.080 --> 0:33:46.600
<v Speaker 2>So imagine this, chuck. Imagine being Brian Wells and you're

0:33:46.640 --> 0:33:50.920
<v Speaker 2>agreeing to put on what you are presuming is a

0:33:50.920 --> 0:33:55.360
<v Speaker 2>fake caller bomb to go carry out a real bank

0:33:55.440 --> 0:33:59.479
<v Speaker 2>robbery because you need money, because you're indebted to crack dealers,

0:33:59.520 --> 0:34:02.520
<v Speaker 2>because you borrowed from crack from them to give to

0:34:02.600 --> 0:34:05.200
<v Speaker 2>your girlfriend, who's a prostitute who you have to give

0:34:05.240 --> 0:34:09.319
<v Speaker 2>crack to be with. And then you find out on

0:34:09.400 --> 0:34:12.759
<v Speaker 2>the day of that this is a real bomb and

0:34:12.840 --> 0:34:15.239
<v Speaker 2>they're putting it on you, whether you like it or not.

0:34:16.440 --> 0:34:19.960
<v Speaker 2>What a horrible what a horrible turn of events for

0:34:20.080 --> 0:34:22.680
<v Speaker 2>this poor guy. Yeah, I mean, that's just so sad,

0:34:22.760 --> 0:34:24.680
<v Speaker 2>no matter how you slice it. And then if you

0:34:24.719 --> 0:34:28.160
<v Speaker 2>take his families, if you take his family's opinion that

0:34:28.200 --> 0:34:30.359
<v Speaker 2>he was one hundred percent innocent, that he really was

0:34:31.520 --> 0:34:34.920
<v Speaker 2>delivering pizzas and was accosted and had nothing to do

0:34:35.000 --> 0:34:37.440
<v Speaker 2>with any of this, which I take with a pretty

0:34:37.440 --> 0:34:40.080
<v Speaker 2>big grain of salt. I mean, that's just as bad.

0:34:40.120 --> 0:34:43.040
<v Speaker 2>But it's bad either way, whether he was an accomplice

0:34:43.040 --> 0:34:46.480
<v Speaker 2>at one point or not. It's super sad. There's a

0:34:46.560 --> 0:34:49.120
<v Speaker 2>very sad thread that's running through this story in the

0:34:49.120 --> 0:34:51.359
<v Speaker 2>form of Brian Wells. You know.

0:34:51.920 --> 0:34:54.400
<v Speaker 1>Well, yeah, And on the final day of her trial,

0:34:54.440 --> 0:34:56.800
<v Speaker 1>at the very very end of her taking the stand,

0:34:57.440 --> 0:34:59.440
<v Speaker 1>is when she finally said that she didn't know him,

0:34:59.480 --> 0:35:02.400
<v Speaker 1>never met him, mm hmm. And the first time she

0:35:02.400 --> 0:35:04.280
<v Speaker 1>had ever laid eyes on him was on the news

0:35:04.280 --> 0:35:04.680
<v Speaker 1>that day.

0:35:04.960 --> 0:35:09.840
<v Speaker 2>Right. Basically, he and Marjorie deal Armstrong are fishing, right,

0:35:10.200 --> 0:35:13.319
<v Speaker 2>they're fishing buddies that he's somebody that she would turn to,

0:35:13.640 --> 0:35:16.399
<v Speaker 2>And she's finding out that her father is blowing through

0:35:16.440 --> 0:35:19.200
<v Speaker 2>her inheritance and she wants to put a stop to it,

0:35:19.440 --> 0:35:24.000
<v Speaker 2>and so she approaches Barnes to get him to kill

0:35:24.080 --> 0:35:26.400
<v Speaker 2>her father. But to get that two hundred and fifty

0:35:26.440 --> 0:35:29.440
<v Speaker 2>K that he says he will kill her father for,

0:35:29.680 --> 0:35:31.480
<v Speaker 2>she's got to rob a bank. So she turns to

0:35:31.520 --> 0:35:34.240
<v Speaker 2>her friend Bill Rothstein to come up with this collar

0:35:34.239 --> 0:35:36.880
<v Speaker 2>bomb to put it on this other person, Brian Wells,

0:35:37.000 --> 0:35:39.560
<v Speaker 2>who's going to carry this out. And oh, by the way,

0:35:39.560 --> 0:35:41.720
<v Speaker 2>we're also going to come up with a scavenger hunt

0:35:41.920 --> 0:35:44.319
<v Speaker 2>to either throw the cops off or to actually make

0:35:44.320 --> 0:35:46.840
<v Speaker 2>Brian Wells feel more comfortable, give him some sort of

0:35:46.920 --> 0:35:50.560
<v Speaker 2>cover in case he is caught. And that's what we're

0:35:50.600 --> 0:35:54.200
<v Speaker 2>gonna go with. Go Team and Marjorie deal Armstrong. So

0:35:54.320 --> 0:35:57.160
<v Speaker 2>that's preposterous that that wasn't me, Kenneth Barnes said, that's

0:35:57.360 --> 0:36:01.520
<v Speaker 2>that's exactly what happened. And then Bill Rothstein wasn't alive

0:36:01.600 --> 0:36:03.279
<v Speaker 2>to contradict any of it.

0:36:03.800 --> 0:36:04.239
<v Speaker 1>That's right.

0:36:04.520 --> 0:36:08.640
<v Speaker 2>So she's sentenced, right, she's convicted as the mastermind of

0:36:08.640 --> 0:36:09.960
<v Speaker 2>this pot. Yeah.

0:36:10.000 --> 0:36:13.400
<v Speaker 1>The jury took about eleven hours and she was convicted

0:36:13.480 --> 0:36:18.600
<v Speaker 1>of armed bank robbery, conspiracy in using a destructive device

0:36:18.800 --> 0:36:20.320
<v Speaker 1>in a crime of violence.

0:36:21.160 --> 0:36:23.400
<v Speaker 2>That's a big one. I'll bet, I'll bet that carries

0:36:23.400 --> 0:36:25.120
<v Speaker 2>a hefty sentence with it.

0:36:25.480 --> 0:36:28.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and she would die in prison, just like her

0:36:28.040 --> 0:36:32.399
<v Speaker 1>prognosis said, she didn't. I think she lasted a few years. Now.

0:36:32.400 --> 0:36:35.080
<v Speaker 2>They gave her three to seven years and she lasted seven.

0:36:35.280 --> 0:36:38.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so she finally passed away, and you know, that's

0:36:38.480 --> 0:36:40.080
<v Speaker 1>kind of the end of the story. Even though there

0:36:40.160 --> 0:36:46.040
<v Speaker 1>is a retired FBI investigator named Jim Fisher who said,

0:36:46.440 --> 0:36:48.799
<v Speaker 1>I think they got this all wrong. I think that

0:36:48.920 --> 0:36:52.160
<v Speaker 1>Rothstein was the guy the whole time, and he makes

0:36:52.160 --> 0:36:56.319
<v Speaker 1>a decently compelling case, but it's you know, everyone's dead now.

0:36:56.960 --> 0:36:59.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Jim Fisher's gone a little bit down the rabbit

0:36:59.280 --> 0:37:00.160
<v Speaker 2>hole if you ask me.

0:37:01.040 --> 0:37:03.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, it's kind of hard to tell with

0:37:03.840 --> 0:37:08.439
<v Speaker 1>literally everyone having died. But for his money, he thinks

0:37:08.440 --> 0:37:09.080
<v Speaker 1>it was Rostein.

0:37:09.360 --> 0:37:13.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And so there's probably not many people who are

0:37:13.520 --> 0:37:16.320
<v Speaker 2>familiar with the case who would say that it wasn't

0:37:16.400 --> 0:37:20.160
<v Speaker 2>Rothstein who built the bomb. But what Jim Fisher saying

0:37:20.239 --> 0:37:25.400
<v Speaker 2>is like Bill Rothstein was behind everything, and Marjorie dial

0:37:25.640 --> 0:37:30.440
<v Speaker 2>Armstrong murdering Jim Roden was just like a gift that

0:37:30.560 --> 0:37:34.040
<v Speaker 2>dropped in Bill Rothstein's lap that he could use to

0:37:34.120 --> 0:37:37.680
<v Speaker 2>make all these puppets dance, including the cops, and that

0:37:37.800 --> 0:37:42.680
<v Speaker 2>the whole point of it was to create this elaborate scheme,

0:37:42.800 --> 0:37:47.279
<v Speaker 2>this elaborate crime that would puzzle people for years and

0:37:47.360 --> 0:37:50.960
<v Speaker 2>years to come, which it's doing that, and that that

0:37:51.200 --> 0:37:53.200
<v Speaker 2>was the point, and that Brian Wells was going to

0:37:53.239 --> 0:37:55.319
<v Speaker 2>die one way or another, right, because I think the

0:37:55.360 --> 0:37:58.799
<v Speaker 2>FBI said they concluded the whole scavenger hunt was a

0:37:58.840 --> 0:38:01.840
<v Speaker 2>hoax and that Brian well was never going to survive this,

0:38:02.200 --> 0:38:05.840
<v Speaker 2>didn't they. Yeah, so so this is Jim Fisher's position.

0:38:05.880 --> 0:38:08.920
<v Speaker 2>But like you said, now that everybody's dead, really the

0:38:08.960 --> 0:38:12.839
<v Speaker 2>only question is, you know, just how how complicit was

0:38:13.440 --> 0:38:18.200
<v Speaker 2>Brian Wells is the last big question that's right. And

0:38:18.239 --> 0:38:20.759
<v Speaker 2>then there's one other guy who seems to have got

0:38:20.760 --> 0:38:23.440
<v Speaker 2>off scott free named Floyd Stockton. Did you look into

0:38:23.480 --> 0:38:27.040
<v Speaker 2>him a little bit? So he's a guy who was there.

0:38:27.640 --> 0:38:31.440
<v Speaker 2>He was he was there. He supposedly handed Rothstein the

0:38:31.480 --> 0:38:34.440
<v Speaker 2>bomb to put around Brian Wells's neck. He was staying

0:38:34.440 --> 0:38:37.759
<v Speaker 2>with Rothstein as a buddy on his couch, fleeing a

0:38:37.880 --> 0:38:43.719
<v Speaker 2>rape charge in Washington, and somehow, for some reason, he

0:38:44.200 --> 0:38:47.120
<v Speaker 2>got immunity and was not indicted even though he was

0:38:47.239 --> 0:38:49.560
<v Speaker 2>very much involved in this, and he got off scott free.

0:38:49.840 --> 0:38:53.200
<v Speaker 2>And Brian Wells's family is going nuts over the fact

0:38:53.239 --> 0:38:55.680
<v Speaker 2>that this guy's out there walking free, that he was,

0:38:55.800 --> 0:38:59.680
<v Speaker 2>he was a part of this this caper, and he

0:38:59.680 --> 0:39:02.000
<v Speaker 2>he didn't see a second inside of a jail.

0:39:02.320 --> 0:39:04.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me if there were more people involved.

0:39:04.480 --> 0:39:06.840
<v Speaker 2>Emon, So, what do you think do you think Brian

0:39:06.920 --> 0:39:10.200
<v Speaker 2>Wells was complicit? And if so, how much?

0:39:11.120 --> 0:39:13.880
<v Speaker 1>Oh? Man, I don't know. I mean, it sounds like

0:39:15.080 --> 0:39:16.680
<v Speaker 1>I kind of believe the story that they were all

0:39:16.680 --> 0:39:19.960
<v Speaker 1>in it together and he was probably double crossed. But

0:39:20.760 --> 0:39:24.560
<v Speaker 1>this is just from reading about this thing many, many

0:39:24.640 --> 0:39:25.120
<v Speaker 1>years later.

0:39:25.320 --> 0:39:29.000
<v Speaker 2>Do you think Marjorie deal Armstrong was the mastermind?

0:39:29.719 --> 0:39:30.200
<v Speaker 1>I don't know.

0:39:30.760 --> 0:39:35.000
<v Speaker 2>I don't know either. Maybe we'll never know, but we might,

0:39:35.880 --> 0:39:38.520
<v Speaker 2>but probably not. You got anything else?

0:39:38.760 --> 0:39:39.600
<v Speaker 1>I got nothing else?

0:39:40.200 --> 0:39:41.960
<v Speaker 2>All right, Well, if you want to know more about

0:39:42.000 --> 0:39:44.759
<v Speaker 2>the collar bomb case, you can type that word and

0:39:44.880 --> 0:39:47.560
<v Speaker 2>the search bar your favorite search engine and it will

0:39:47.640 --> 0:39:50.479
<v Speaker 2>likely bring up a very great article on Wired from

0:39:50.560 --> 0:39:54.520
<v Speaker 2>Rich Shapiro. Read that start there. It's great And since

0:39:54.560 --> 0:39:56.720
<v Speaker 2>I said Rich Shapiro, it's tide for the listener.

0:39:56.760 --> 0:40:04.879
<v Speaker 1>Mail with one on emoji and John Adams. Hey guys

0:40:04.960 --> 0:40:08.399
<v Speaker 1>enjoyed the recent podcast about the history of emojis and emoticons.

0:40:08.440 --> 0:40:10.960
<v Speaker 1>Reminded me of a discovery I made in the diaries

0:40:11.000 --> 0:40:14.560
<v Speaker 1>of John Adams that makes a historical figure who's sometimes

0:40:14.560 --> 0:40:19.280
<v Speaker 1>described as aloof seemed completely charming when the future president

0:40:19.280 --> 0:40:21.160
<v Speaker 1>was about twenty two years old. He made it an

0:40:21.320 --> 0:40:24.840
<v Speaker 1>entry in his diary in seventeen fifty six, saying, a

0:40:24.880 --> 0:40:29.040
<v Speaker 1>cloudy morning about ten, and he drew a little sunshine

0:40:29.400 --> 0:40:32.479
<v Speaker 1>breakout a warm day. He uses a little line drawing

0:40:32.520 --> 0:40:35.759
<v Speaker 1>on the sun that I always call an eighteenth century emoji.

0:40:36.640 --> 0:40:38.480
<v Speaker 1>He likes a little creation so much he re used

0:40:38.480 --> 0:40:41.760
<v Speaker 1>it a month later in the same diary, A misty morning,

0:40:42.040 --> 0:40:48.360
<v Speaker 1>little sunshine breakout about noon. On the Massachusetts Historical Society website,

0:40:48.440 --> 0:40:51.759
<v Speaker 1>the text of his letters and diaries is faithfully transcribed,

0:40:52.080 --> 0:40:55.760
<v Speaker 1>but in the cases. In these cases, a parenthetical note

0:40:55.920 --> 0:40:58.320
<v Speaker 1>tells readers that there are small drawings of the sun

0:40:58.520 --> 0:41:01.400
<v Speaker 1>and advises them to refer to the scans of the

0:41:01.440 --> 0:41:05.680
<v Speaker 1>handwritten page where you can actually see this. Apparently he

0:41:05.719 --> 0:41:08.040
<v Speaker 1>grew out of his habit, though, because his later diaries

0:41:08.360 --> 0:41:11.399
<v Speaker 1>do not use the adorable little son. Keep up great work.

0:41:11.880 --> 0:41:14.000
<v Speaker 1>My wife and I host a local history podcast for

0:41:14.080 --> 0:41:17.400
<v Speaker 1>Boston Nice. It's tightly scripted. Oh man, he didn't tell

0:41:17.440 --> 0:41:19.279
<v Speaker 1>me what it was. I would have totally shouted it out.

0:41:19.440 --> 0:41:25.319
<v Speaker 1>What I know, big missed opportunity there, Jake. One of

0:41:25.360 --> 0:41:27.680
<v Speaker 1>these days will be confident enough to have an unscripted

0:41:27.719 --> 0:41:32.040
<v Speaker 1>conversation like you guys do. And that is from Jake Scaniers.

0:41:32.640 --> 0:41:36.000
<v Speaker 2>Okay, so everybody's look up Jake scan yours Boston History

0:41:36.040 --> 0:41:38.480
<v Speaker 2>podcast and he'll probably bring it up right. Yeah, probably,

0:41:38.520 --> 0:41:42.480
<v Speaker 2>So thanks a lot, Jake. Thanks for keeping up the

0:41:42.520 --> 0:41:45.359
<v Speaker 2>good fight up there. That's pretty cool. Good story too.

0:41:46.160 --> 0:41:47.600
<v Speaker 2>If you want to get in touch with us, like

0:41:47.680 --> 0:41:50.520
<v Speaker 2>Jake did, tell us about your podcast, that's great. You

0:41:50.560 --> 0:41:52.480
<v Speaker 2>can send us all an email of the Stuff podcast

0:41:52.520 --> 0:41:54.799
<v Speaker 2>at house stuffworks dot com and has always joined us

0:41:54.800 --> 0:42:00.000
<v Speaker 2>at our home on the web, Stuffishould Know dot com.

0:42:00.480 --> 0:42:02.799
<v Speaker 1>Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.

0:42:03.280 --> 0:42:05.359
<v Speaker 2>For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit

0:42:05.400 --> 0:42:08.680
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0:42:08.680 --> 0:42:09.600
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