1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:02,960 Speaker 1: One of the other things he did in that first 2 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:06,360 Speaker 1: date that was odd is he said to me I'd 3 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:11,360 Speaker 1: been researching widows. And my thought was, oh, he saw 4 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: that about my profile. He's been going out to understand 5 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:18,279 Speaker 1: my particular issues. Now, looking back, I think it means 6 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 1: something else, but I didn't know that at the time. 7 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 2: I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, a show about 8 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:40,279 Speaker 2: the people we trust the most and the deceptions that 9 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 2: change everything. Carrie McAvoy is a clinical psychologist based in Michigan. 10 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: They saw clients in private practice for nearly twenty years. 11 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: What was exciting about working with clients was that I 12 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: could see really dramatic shifts in a relatively short time 13 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 1: when there was a lot of motive and effort, and 14 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 1: to me, it felt like a sacred privilege to work 15 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: with them. 16 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 2: Even though she studies human behavior for a living, she 17 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 2: found herself caught in a web of lies and manipulation. 18 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: Everyone somehow assumes a psychologists are like above human, superhuman. 19 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 1: We should know we should be excellent reads of people. Yeah, 20 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 1: I'm good reads of people, but when it comes to myself, 21 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 1: I'm not always so good because then my personal perceptions 22 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:29,840 Speaker 1: get involved. Anyone can fall for something like this, you 23 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: just haven't met the sophisticated enough predator. 24 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:36,400 Speaker 2: And when Carrie was at her most vulnerable, she met 25 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 2: a predator who would derail her own life. Carrie grew 26 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 2: up on a dairy farm in Michigan. 27 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:46,679 Speaker 1: I think it had an active herd of sixty cows, 28 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: and we are expected to be a part of the 29 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 1: milking process. So my three sisters and I went to 30 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: work and start farming along with my dad. 31 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 2: She was the oldest of her three sisters. 32 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 1: We were supposed to be good girls. 33 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 2: And out of the good girls. 34 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: I was known as the best, the goodest, the one 35 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 1: that did everything right, the teacher's favorite. 36 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 2: On the outside, they were an idyllic American farming family, but. 37 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:13,360 Speaker 1: There was abuse and neglect going on in the family. 38 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 1: There was secrets that we were keeping. 39 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:20,640 Speaker 2: Carrie and her little sister were being abused by a 40 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:21,359 Speaker 2: family member. 41 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 1: Her and I had shared a room and the abuse 42 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:25,919 Speaker 1: was going on in the room, and either it would 43 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:28,359 Speaker 1: be she was hurt or I was hurt. 44 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 2: It was a trauma that shaped Carrie's worldview. She retreated 45 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 2: into herself, and her safe space was school. She channeled 46 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 2: all of her energy into becoming a straight A student. 47 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:44,239 Speaker 2: When she was fourteen, she read a magazine article about psychology. 48 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 1: I thought, Oh, that's it. That's what I want to be. 49 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 1: I want to be a psychologist. I really wanted to 50 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 1: sort of decode a person. 51 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 2: She knew it would take years of school to earn 52 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 2: a PhD in psychology, and that became her singular goal. 53 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:01,359 Speaker 1: So I did call in three years. I probably could 54 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 1: have done it in two and a half years because 55 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 1: I was moving so fast and getting credit so fast. 56 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 1: Between my freshman and sophomore year, I worked up north 57 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:14,799 Speaker 1: at a touristtown in northern Michigan City, Mackinawe Island, and 58 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: that's where I met Brad. 59 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 2: She hadn't dated much before college. High school guys just 60 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 2: didn't understand her, but Brad seemed different. 61 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 1: He and I started talking, and sure enough we just clicked. 62 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: By the end of the night, we were around a 63 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 1: bonfire telling ghost stories and I was really tired, so 64 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: I laid my head on his knee. He put his 65 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 1: hand on my shoulder, and I felt like I came home. 66 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: It was an amazing feeling. 67 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 2: After that night, they were inseparable. 68 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 1: He was really loyal. He was the kind of guy 69 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:55,119 Speaker 1: if he told you, I'm going to help you move, 70 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 1: which he did do that. He would tell people, even 71 00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: people he didn't know very well, I'm going to help 72 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 1: you move. If he woke up that morning with the 73 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 1: stomach flu, he would still go to help you move, 74 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 1: So you could just count on him. He was a 75 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: man of his word. 76 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 2: When she got into a PhD program in California, Brad 77 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 2: went with her. 78 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 1: Brad had a big belief in me. He's died like 79 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:19,840 Speaker 1: a cheerleader, champion of me. If I wanted to do something, 80 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 1: he supported that, and. 81 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 2: In graduate school she needed his support. 82 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 1: I would literally fall into bed at night, almost in 83 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:30,159 Speaker 1: tears because I'd worked the whole day, get up do 84 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 1: it again. While you're trying to get ready for exams 85 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:36,359 Speaker 1: and have papers written, and you have course reading lists 86 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:39,719 Speaker 1: that are impossible to get through. It was so hard, 87 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 1: and Brad created space for that. He never once complained 88 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:48,040 Speaker 1: about my lack of availability. He just was super supportive. 89 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 2: She earned her PhD in clinical psychology, and she got 90 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 2: her first job in the field, working at a psychiatric hospital. 91 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 1: I got to see the psychopathology class onto display what 92 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 1: did a borderline personality look like. What did bipolar disorder? 93 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:08,280 Speaker 1: What do the different subtypes of schizophrenia look like? What 94 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 1: does it look like when someone has a psychotic break. 95 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:14,839 Speaker 2: She was getting a lot of experience, and in the meantime, 96 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 2: she and Brad decided to start a family. Over the 97 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 2: next few years, they had three sons, but pregnancy took 98 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 2: a toll on her body, one that she was not expecting. 99 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 1: I had a massive hair shed where I lost most 100 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 1: of my hair from that pregnancy. It was a shock. 101 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:35,480 Speaker 1: So here I am weaning my two year old and 102 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 1: my hair is falling out, which was devastating, just devastating. 103 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,479 Speaker 1: I mean, we literally evaluate women on the quality of 104 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:47,160 Speaker 1: their hair. For me to know this is not changeable, 105 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:48,920 Speaker 1: I'm not ever going to get this back. I'm going 106 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:51,599 Speaker 1: to have to face the world like this. It took 107 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 1: me over ten years to deal with it. 108 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:57,600 Speaker 2: Even though she had wigs. The hair loss took away 109 00:05:57,640 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 2: her self confidence and her sense of self. 110 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 1: I became suicidal for a while, not actively, but just like, 111 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: what's the point, you know? I felt trapped by it, 112 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 1: struggled to go out into the public. I mean, it 113 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: was bothering me enough that I had literal nightmares over 114 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: being found out or having people discover this. They just 115 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 1: felt terribly exposed. 116 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 2: But Brad wasn't bothered by it at all. He and 117 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 2: their three boys became her refuge. 118 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 1: We got a little old camper up on northern Michigan 119 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 1: and sat on the lake every summer, and it was fun. 120 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 1: It was just a really really good period of life 121 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 1: for us. Busy, but really good. 122 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 2: Carrie built her own practice as a clinical psychologist and 123 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 2: Brad worked as a civil engineer. 124 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 1: The degree that we had this partnership really shined. We 125 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 1: agreed on how we spent money. We were making good decisions, 126 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: trying to pay off debt, get rid of my student loan, 127 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 1: those types of things, get in a good financial position. 128 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:57,839 Speaker 2: Their priority was saving for an early retirement. 129 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 1: Our plan was once the last child, so out of 130 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:02,840 Speaker 1: the home. He was going to quit working when we 131 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 1: were going to focus more on the last part of 132 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 1: our lives. I thought we'd have a second honeymoon, and 133 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 1: so that was our plan. 134 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 2: When they were both fifty, they started working with an 135 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 2: architect design their dream home, the house they'd grow old in. 136 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 1: And he and I spent enormous amount of time with 137 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: an architect designing this really gorgeous farm style house with 138 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 1: even part of it with a metal roof so I 139 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: could listen to the rain. 140 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 2: They were about to start construction when Brad got sick. 141 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 1: Brad started vomiting just unexpectedly. 142 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 2: At first, they didn't think much of it. 143 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 1: He kept thinking he knew what it was, you know. 144 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: He thought he had problems with milk, so he stopped 145 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 1: drinking milk. And then he thought maybe he's gluten sensitive, 146 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 1: so he started watching gluten. 147 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 2: But the symptoms only got worse, so they decided to 148 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 2: see a specialist. 149 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 1: They said that we found a tumor, and I knew 150 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 1: the news was bad while we were waiting for the 151 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 1: biopsy to come back. 152 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 2: It was a rare form of stomach cancer. Carrie immediately 153 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 2: started researching, preparing a list of questions for the doctors. 154 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: It was extremely pessimistic, like less than five percent make 155 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 1: it five years, so this is terminal. 156 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 2: But no one had said this to them yet, so 157 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 2: she asked the doctor directly. 158 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 1: I remember going in and sitting across from him in 159 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 1: the desk, and I said, tell me the truth. Did 160 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 1: you just tell me last night that Brad was dying? 161 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 1: And he said yes. I collapsed and I started weeping, 162 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 1: and then you know, we had this really practical talk 163 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 1: about what does that mean. I said, so, if he 164 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 1: does chemotherapy, how much time will he gain? He said 165 00:08:56,280 --> 00:09:00,040 Speaker 1: he might live twelve months. And I said, if we 166 00:08:59,880 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 1: don't do chemotherapy, how long will he live? And he 167 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 1: said maybe six. So we walked out and he said, 168 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:13,199 Speaker 1: I'm not doing chemotherapy. It just doesn't make sense. I 169 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 1: don't want to be sicker. So we then decided we're 170 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 1: going to make the best of that time that we 171 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 1: had left. 172 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 2: They wanted to go on one last vacation together, just 173 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 2: the two of them. They went to Jamaica, where they 174 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:29,440 Speaker 2: hired a driver to take them to the most beautiful 175 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:30,559 Speaker 2: beaches on the island. 176 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 1: The chauffeur took us up up on a cliff and 177 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 1: let us get out and walk up to the edge, 178 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 1: and Brad stood there with me and he said, you 179 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 1: know you could do this, don't you. You know you 180 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 1: could travel, live abroad and start again. 181 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 2: He wanted her to live life to the fullest after 182 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 2: he was gone, to pursue her wildest dreams. That vacation 183 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 2: in Jamaica would be one of their last good memories 184 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 2: together before his cancer progressed. 185 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 1: I stopped working and just focused on him, and he 186 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:04,079 Speaker 1: would say, the taxes are too high. They're too high. 187 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 1: We can't afford the tat he'd like in his stumbling way, 188 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:09,079 Speaker 1: he would say that, and it hit me. He's saying 189 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 1: it's taxing me too much. This is costing me too much. 190 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 1: And then I would look at him and I'd say, 191 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:19,200 Speaker 1: if this is Mount Everest, I would carry you up 192 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 1: to the top on my back. I can do this. 193 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 1: I have it in me to do this. And he'd say, okay, okay, okay. 194 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 1: I needed quiet. Back down again. 195 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 2: Five and a half months after the diagnosis, Brad died 196 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 2: at home with Carrie by his side. 197 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: A former client of mine sent me a note of 198 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 1: a welch word that's hereth I'd never heard of it before, 199 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 1: and it stands for a home that's lost, that can 200 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 1: never be found again, a homesickness of a home that 201 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:00,199 Speaker 1: you're looking for that you can't find. And that's it 202 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 1: felt like. I cried every single day. I didn't know 203 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:11,560 Speaker 1: if I would survive the pain. My chest ached, my 204 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:12,440 Speaker 1: heart ached. 205 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 2: Her youngest son was a senior in high school, and 206 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 2: that Christmas they were lost without Brad. 207 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: I didn't know this until we lost him. He was 208 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 1: the glue that held us together. We had so little 209 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 1: energy that Christmas we basically handed each other the boxes 210 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: that they came in from. What of her company we 211 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 1: bought it from. We couldn't even wrap it. There's just 212 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:36,960 Speaker 1: no energy to do that. 213 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 2: Before he got sick, the couple had made smart financial 214 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 2: decisions to protect their future. 215 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 1: Between Brad's pension retirement as well as the life insurance policy. 216 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 1: I was seck comfortably for the rest of my life. 217 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: I would never have to work again. 218 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 2: But the money was little comfort. She would trade it 219 00:11:58,280 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 2: all just to have Brad back. 220 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 1: How do you find that again in your fifties and 221 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:07,680 Speaker 1: how do you replace this life that you build? I 222 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:09,679 Speaker 1: wanted it back, That's what I wanted. I want her 223 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 1: life that I had back. 224 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 2: So in her grief, Carrie made a snap decision. 225 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 1: And I'm ashamed of it, honestly, but I wanted out 226 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 1: of this pain so bad. I started dating really fast, 227 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:23,680 Speaker 1: thinking that maybe I could just find someone and put 228 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 1: that person in the slot and this would fix all 229 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 1: of this. 230 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 2: After Carrie McAvoy's husband passed away, she retired early from 231 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 2: her clinical psychology practice. Without him, she felt lost and 232 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 2: wanted desperately to find love again. 233 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: It was maybe four to five months after Brad passed away. 234 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 1: I had my date. 235 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 2: Her first date was with another widower, someone who would 236 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 2: understand what she'd been through. 237 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:10,559 Speaker 1: It was a weird date because we just talked about 238 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 1: how painful it was being widowed and how much that 239 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:16,560 Speaker 1: person had left a hole in her life. It was sweet. 240 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: I appreciate meeting him, but it was just sort of like, 241 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 1: I get your pain, but we're not really a match, 242 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:25,320 Speaker 1: but thank you for that. It went out with a 243 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 1: few other men, and then it started taking it more seriously, 244 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 1: you know, once I got my feet underneath me and 245 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 1: figured out what this was like. 246 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 2: It was a good distraction. Carrie threw herself into a 247 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:38,079 Speaker 2: series of first. 248 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 1: Dates, and so much so that I was getting exhausted. 249 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 1: I thought it would be simple to find somebody. I 250 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 1: also thought it would be easier that there'd be more 251 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 1: compatibility with more people. 252 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 2: Brad was always her biggest supporter, not just in her 253 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 2: career but emotionally, and without him, her self esteem faltered. 254 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 1: I'm not a thin woman, I'm highly educated. I actually 255 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 1: went up with somebody from my practice for dinner, and 256 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 1: she said, you're going to have a hard time finding 257 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 1: love again. You're too smart, you're too educated, and you're 258 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:18,679 Speaker 1: too old. And I had it in my head and 259 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 1: I'm too fat. 260 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 2: Dating again was more difficult than she anticipated. It was 261 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 2: becoming too much. 262 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 1: I started to become really discouraged, so I decided I 263 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 1: needed to take a break and that I was going 264 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 1: to close my dating apps and just stop. 265 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 2: But her dating app subscription had just renewed for another 266 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 2: three months and she couldn't get a refund, so she 267 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 2: took it as a sign. 268 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 1: So it was literally within a few days of that 269 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 1: that a handsome man's profile passed my preview. 270 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 2: His name was Caesar. In his profile picture, he's standing 271 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 2: at the top of the Sears Tower. 272 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 1: It felt like I was seeing a GQ shoot. He's 273 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 1: wearing a knit shirt with slacks. It's almost like he's 274 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 1: missing the coat slung over his shoulder. My first thought 275 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 1: of Caesar was he's really good looking, and he had 276 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: a look on his face like I can't wait to 277 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 1: meet you. 278 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 2: He even listed his deal breakers right on his profile. 279 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 1: No tattoos, no piercings besides earrings, no atheists, and no 280 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 1: pet owners. And they even wrote after going out with 281 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 1: a few dates and finding out there's these big discrepancies, 282 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 1: I thought it would be more helpful if I just 283 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 1: come out and say these are my deal breakers. A 284 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 1: little arrogant, but on the other hand, at least he 285 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 1: was more upfront than those who say I have a 286 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 1: super fit lifestyle and want someone who values that, which 287 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 1: is code for I want a slim woman. 288 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 2: She was amused and attracted to his profile, but ultimately 289 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 2: she decided, this. 290 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 1: Is the person who's out of my league. I felt 291 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 1: like I was a solid six next to this nine, 292 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 1: and I just like passed on by. I didn't swipe left, 293 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 1: I just didn't do anything with the profile. But the 294 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 1: next day, this was one of those abs ate lunch 295 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 1: to view who viewed your profile, and it said he 296 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 1: looked and I thought, you know what, why not reach 297 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: out and say something. So I just said, what a 298 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: nice profile. Seems like you and I had some things 299 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 1: in common. 300 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 2: They both lived in the Midwest a few hours apart, 301 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 2: and both had adult children, so she asked. 302 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: Him, would you like to see if we have more 303 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 1: in common? And he wrote back and he said, yeah, 304 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 1: that would be nice. That's how our connection started. 305 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 2: They started talking every day. 306 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: After a few weeks, it's going great and it's sweet. 307 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 1: He and I both agreed it was time to meet. 308 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 1: We decide that we're going to go out to Lake 309 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 1: Michigan for the day and just kind of enjoy the beach. 310 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: I'll pack a picnic for the two of us. 311 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 2: That Sunday, they met in person for the first time. 312 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 2: He looked just like his photos, handsome, kind eyes, huge smile. 313 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 2: She was surprised by his enthusiasm. 314 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: He's a very loud person, very charismatic, dynamic person. The 315 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:12,640 Speaker 1: introvert to me was like, that's a lot. I felt overwhelmed. 316 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:15,200 Speaker 1: My first inclination was like, ooh wow. I mean he's 317 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 1: gesturing and his voice is booming. Brad, by the way, 318 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:21,880 Speaker 1: it was extremely quiet. Our first data. I had to say, 319 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 1: if you don't start talking, this relationship is going to 320 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 1: go nowhere. So picture of the differences between that. 321 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 2: He was a gentleman. He wanted to unload all the 322 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:31,960 Speaker 2: picnic supplies she brought. 323 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:35,919 Speaker 1: He swings something away from me to not let me help. No, No, 324 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 1: it's your turn to be taken care of. It's your turn, Okay. 325 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 1: So I walked down to the edge of the water 326 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 1: with him. We find a spot and we sit there 327 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 1: and we just start to talk. 328 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:49,400 Speaker 2: And one of the first things he wanted to talk 329 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:52,439 Speaker 2: about was what it was like to be a widow. 330 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 1: He said, I'd been researching widows, and my thought was, Oh, 331 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:02,719 Speaker 1: this is something I would do. I would research widows 332 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:06,119 Speaker 1: to understand my partner. I thought, oh, he saw that 333 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 1: about my profile. He's been going out to understand my 334 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 1: particular issues. 335 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,720 Speaker 2: Just like his dating profile suggested. He was direct. He 336 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:17,160 Speaker 2: didn't want to waste their time, so he said there 337 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 2: were a few things she should know right up front. 338 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 1: I need to let you know that I've been married 339 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:24,400 Speaker 1: more than once, and I want to do this differently. 340 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:25,880 Speaker 1: I want a forever relationship. 341 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:29,879 Speaker 2: They talked about how and why his earlier marriages failed. 342 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 2: His explanations weren't very in depth, but they all seemed 343 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 2: reasonable enough. 344 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:39,400 Speaker 1: And then he stopped and he said, I came from 345 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:43,720 Speaker 1: a really rough home. And he began to describe some 346 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 1: of the dynamics that was happening in the house. 347 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 2: He began divulging dark details about his childhood, stories of 348 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 2: family secrets and abuse. 349 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 1: And I'm thinking this is a first date. I wouldn't 350 00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 1: get into this with another person. This is kind of 351 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:01,880 Speaker 1: uncomfortable history. And I ended up thinking, so, how much 352 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 1: of my history should I be saying, because he's exposed 353 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:08,880 Speaker 1: so much of himself, will he think I'm being secretive 354 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: if I don't share that back. 355 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:16,159 Speaker 2: So instead she turned to the picnic she packed, and 356 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:17,400 Speaker 2: to her surprise. 357 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:20,199 Speaker 1: I forgot all the cold items in the refrigerator. So 358 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 1: here I have this picnic, no meat, no tomatoes, just 359 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 1: has bread, lettuce, chips, and fruit. You know, everything else 360 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:30,360 Speaker 1: is missing. 361 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 2: So much further picnic lunch. 362 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 1: Because I was feeling one of those moments like oh no, 363 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 1: I blew this date, and He's like, no, no, this 364 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 1: is no big deal. And then he suggested at the end, 365 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:43,879 Speaker 1: let's go out to eat and see a movie because 366 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 1: we were starving by that point. 367 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:49,119 Speaker 2: She liked that he was flexible, he was going with 368 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,199 Speaker 2: the flow. After dinner and a movie, he handed her 369 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:56,160 Speaker 2: a gift. It was a dozen wild rose blossoms without stems. 370 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:58,640 Speaker 1: He said, now you can kick them home and dry 371 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 1: them and create some so we have a memory of 372 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 1: our first date together. So it was just this really romantic, 373 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 1: over the top sort of experience that was fabulous. 374 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 2: And with that he kissed me on. 375 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 1: The cheek and said, you know, I hope you sleep well. 376 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:16,120 Speaker 1: It's so nice to meet you, and then left. 377 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:19,200 Speaker 2: They immediately started making plans for another date. 378 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 1: He was really good at planning things. He took me 379 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 1: to Mall America, went through the aquarium, we did like 380 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 1: a little amusement park ride, and he took me to 381 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 1: one of his favorite restaurants. So every weekend felt planned. 382 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,920 Speaker 1: Another weekend. He took me to this National park, the Waterfalls, 383 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 1: to show me one of his favorite places, and it 384 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 1: just was romantic. 385 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:44,919 Speaker 2: As the dates went on, it was clear there was 386 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:48,439 Speaker 2: an elephant in the room, the fact that Carrie didn't work. 387 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 1: He started to like, do you have like financial issues? 388 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 1: Are you in trouble? Do you need a loan? Are 389 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:57,200 Speaker 1: you all right? I said no, no, I'm okay. Actually 390 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 1: the opposite is true. I don't need to work. I 391 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:03,440 Speaker 1: came into a lot of money when Brad died. 392 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 2: And then without thinking, she said the number. 393 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,200 Speaker 1: And the minute I did that, I had this deep 394 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:16,880 Speaker 1: shame flood over me. It's like you've made a really 395 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 1: grave error here, You've divulged something super private. Now You'll 396 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:24,639 Speaker 1: never know why this person's in a relationship with you. 397 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 1: Is it for the money or is it for you? 398 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:30,480 Speaker 2: She watched him to see if he'd change, if you'd 399 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 2: suddenly become overly affectionate or expect her to start paying 400 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:38,400 Speaker 2: for more, And he didn't. You see the same easygoing guy. 401 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:41,400 Speaker 2: But on some level, she knew she needed to be 402 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,880 Speaker 2: more cautious. Little things started worrying her. 403 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,160 Speaker 1: He wasn't a big caller, so we weren't having constant 404 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 1: phone calls. They were rare, and we might have a 405 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:53,160 Speaker 1: fantastic phone call, but then I might not hear from 406 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 1: him again. I just felt he was hard to reach. 407 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 1: Even if I texted him. He wasn't really quick to 408 00:21:58,280 --> 00:21:58,879 Speaker 1: get back to me. 409 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:03,119 Speaker 2: They lived a few hours apart, so when she couldn't 410 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 2: reach him for a couple of days, her mind would race. 411 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:10,120 Speaker 1: It was bothering me so bad that I reached out 412 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,920 Speaker 1: to a private investigator that i'd hired before, a professional PI. 413 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,919 Speaker 1: I contacted him and said, I'm dating someone, but I 414 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,200 Speaker 1: have a question. Is he really divorced? 415 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 2: The PI ran a background check and he found that 416 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 2: Caesar was single, living alone. The records also pulled up 417 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 2: an old dui and a string of short lived jobs. 418 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,680 Speaker 2: Other than that, nothing particularly alarming. 419 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 1: So I'm seeing him shortly after that, and my big 420 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 1: conundrum is do I tell him I did this because 421 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 1: I just don't like secrets. I just hate them. I 422 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 1: just feel like they fester and ruin relationships for you 423 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 1: to have something that you know on somebody else. And 424 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:51,640 Speaker 1: so I said to him, I've done a background check 425 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 1: on you, and I'll never forget. He got really still 426 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:58,399 Speaker 1: like frozen, and I thought, oh no, this is going 427 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,200 Speaker 1: to go really bad. Said, so what did you learn? 428 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,200 Speaker 1: And I started listing, You've had a lot of jobs, 429 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,640 Speaker 1: you've moved quite a bit, and you have a dui. 430 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:10,359 Speaker 1: And he said, yeah, I did have a dui and 431 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 1: this is what happened, and yeah, I have made some 432 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:15,159 Speaker 1: job changes in trying to find the right job. But 433 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:17,480 Speaker 1: I could tell the tension. You could cut it with 434 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 1: a knife. It was so tense. And then he called 435 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:22,640 Speaker 1: me over to sit beside me, and he started saying, 436 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 1: next time you have these types of doubts, come to me. First, 437 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 1: I started crying and he pugged me and he said 438 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 1: it's going to be okay, but I want you to 439 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 1: come to me. 440 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 2: First, she was immediately ashamed that she'd gone behind his back. 441 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 1: We got through it, and I really thought that was 442 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:40,880 Speaker 1: sweet in that I was shocked that he wasn't more angry. 443 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 2: A few weeks later, he asked her to go steady. 444 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,199 Speaker 1: That was his word. He asked me in September, can 445 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:50,240 Speaker 1: we go study? And I said yeah. I thought that 446 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 1: was really sweet and kind of reminiscent of the past. 447 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:56,479 Speaker 2: So they both deleted their online dating profiles and started 448 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,880 Speaker 2: seeing each other exclusively. He pushed her to try new thing. 449 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,439 Speaker 1: He took me salsa dancing, actually taught me how to 450 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 1: salsa dance, and there was a childishness to him, like 451 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:10,399 Speaker 1: a playfulness. His eyes would sparkle, and he'd be so 452 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 1: excited when we would do the salsa dancing as I'm 453 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:16,119 Speaker 1: trying to struggle with the steps at this big restaurant 454 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:18,919 Speaker 1: with everybody learning, and they're all twirling around us, And 455 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 1: he just made me feel like I was the most 456 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:22,439 Speaker 1: beautiful woman in the world. 457 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 2: One weekend, she'd traveled to him, and the next he'd 458 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 2: traveled to. 459 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:31,439 Speaker 1: Her, and it started to feel like life in between 460 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:35,680 Speaker 1: these dates were really dull and flat, like I was surviving. 461 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 1: And then when I was with Caesar, it felt like 462 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 1: life became colorful and just really rich. 463 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 2: Carrie started daydreaming about starting fresh and moving somewhere closer 464 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 2: to Caesar, but her twenty year old son was still 465 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 2: living at home. 466 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,119 Speaker 1: I called my middle son, who had been living with me, 467 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,439 Speaker 1: and I said, you know, I'm thinking of moving. What 468 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 1: do you think if we were to move, you and 469 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 1: I were to move together, and he said, Mom, I'm 470 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:02,400 Speaker 1: really depressed. I'm not doing well. It sounds great, let's move. 471 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 2: She runed out her place and they made the move. 472 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,120 Speaker 1: Caesar had had this policy, you don't get to see 473 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:11,920 Speaker 1: the kids until we're engaged. 474 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 2: But once she moved closer, they decided to break that rule. 475 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,640 Speaker 2: Their first week in town, Caesar took her and her 476 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 2: son out to dinner. 477 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 1: And then Caesar just became part of our life. You know. 478 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,040 Speaker 1: He would come over after work and hang out with 479 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:27,680 Speaker 1: the two of us, got to know the two of us, 480 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 1: and it felt good. It felt like a new normal. 481 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: Caesar would even invite me up for lunch in the 482 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 1: middle of his day. Brad would never have done that, 483 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:39,639 Speaker 1: which I even thought, Wow, he's stopping his day. And 484 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:41,400 Speaker 1: then he comes over at night. Hangs out and watch 485 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 1: TV till he falls asleep, and then he heads home. 486 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:45,639 Speaker 1: It just really felt great. 487 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:50,560 Speaker 2: Caesar grew up in Mexico and shared his culture with Carrie. 488 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:52,679 Speaker 1: Teaching me how to buy tr tea is, teaching me 489 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,399 Speaker 1: even what carnita is and how much fat do you 490 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,440 Speaker 1: want to have in it? And then introducing your own 491 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 1: you know that I've never had before, or just having 492 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,159 Speaker 1: this whole new side of things being introduced. It was 493 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:04,120 Speaker 1: so so exciting. 494 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 2: Caesar, Carrie and her son started a tradition of Sunday dinners. 495 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 1: He would take me out to a little Mexican grocery 496 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 1: store by carnitas, buy the dirtillas, you'd make all the 497 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 1: prep and then we'd have this little buffet of carnitas. Together. 498 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 1: We would laugh and the three of us would watch movies. 499 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:27,200 Speaker 1: And one of the most tender scenes the three of 500 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 1: us were on the couch and the basement. Then, in fact, 501 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,639 Speaker 1: Caesar made sure I'd noticed this. My son was leaning 502 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,719 Speaker 1: up against him and he looked over at me. I 503 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:39,680 Speaker 1: just felt like, we're family. See, we're a family. Even 504 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:57,639 Speaker 1: my own son loves him. 505 00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:01,119 Speaker 2: After almost a year of dating, care and Caesar planned 506 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 2: their first vacation together. 507 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 1: So we plan a trip over the middle of February 508 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 1: to go out to California, and his favorite movie is 509 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:12,720 Speaker 1: The Godfather, and we found out that Copolas have a 510 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,920 Speaker 1: winery out there, so we make this reservation that we're 511 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:17,720 Speaker 1: going to have a dinner at their winery, and I 512 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,200 Speaker 1: can tell that he's decided it's going to be something 513 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 1: extra special. 514 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 2: On the scenic drive to the winery, Caesar seemed almost nervous. 515 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 1: Driving up to this long dirt road with the trees 516 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 1: beside it, and you come up dusk and the lights 517 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: are on the trees and it's just beautiful. And then 518 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,239 Speaker 1: we're out on the back deck looking up at the 519 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:40,439 Speaker 1: moon and next thing I know, I turn around and 520 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,639 Speaker 1: he's on one knee with an engagement ring held out 521 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:45,159 Speaker 1: and said, will you marry me? 522 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 2: She said yes. As she looked closer at the ring, 523 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 2: she noticed something was off about it, and. 524 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 1: It was really kind of odd that the ring seemed cheap. 525 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 1: And I feel really even bad saying this, but it's 526 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 1: like really cheap, like I can tell that it's not 527 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:08,399 Speaker 1: real metal. It actually started tiishing my finger it with green. 528 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,680 Speaker 1: It was cheap, and I came out of the bathroom, 529 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 1: and he happened to be standing there. He bent low 530 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:15,119 Speaker 1: and he goes, I know it's not much. I just 531 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,080 Speaker 1: didn't have much suspend I didn't want to hold that 532 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 1: up and asking you to marry me. But I will 533 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 1: buy you a much better one in a few years. 534 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 2: Ultimately, she didn't really care how much the ring cost. 535 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:30,200 Speaker 2: She wanted a partnership like the one she had with Brad, 536 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,680 Speaker 2: and this time around, she wanted to do it differently. 537 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,880 Speaker 2: With her kids grown, she could go on adventures, live 538 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 2: life to the fullest. 539 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 1: I mean, I had this dream that Brad sort of 540 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 1: painted for me in Jamaica. 541 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 2: That's when she got an idea. Caesar was a Mexican citizen, 542 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 2: so marrying him meant she could apply to be a 543 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 2: permanent resident of Mexico if they moved there. 544 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 1: Really great way to make income last a really long 545 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 1: time is to live in a less expensive place. And 546 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 1: I thought, I'd already been a landlord, maybe I can 547 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 1: do something similar. 548 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 2: So she approached him with a business plan. 549 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 1: I said to him, have you ever thought about moving 550 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:16,400 Speaker 1: back to Mexico? Or what about vacation rentals? Why don't 551 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:19,479 Speaker 1: we do that? And I remember Caesar got super silent, 552 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 1: like deathly silent, and he paused for a long second 553 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 1: and then he said, are you serious. You're not making 554 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 1: a joke here, are you? I said, no, I'm very serious. 555 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 1: That would be a dream of mine. I'd love to 556 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:33,800 Speaker 1: do that. 557 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 2: They started with a trip to one of Mexico's most 558 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 2: popular tourist destinations. 559 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 1: We visit outside of Mereda and then we go to 560 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 1: Plia and when we find a king Kun and drive 561 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 1: into Plaia, he and I looked at each other and thought, 562 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 1: this is it. This is where we want to build 563 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:54,120 Speaker 1: this company. 564 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 2: The entire trip, they did research for their new vacation 565 00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 2: rental business. 566 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 1: United States of citizen can't own property near the shore. 567 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 1: The only way that you can do that is either 568 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 1: you buy a lifelong lease as a word for it, 569 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 1: Fido Camiso, or you start a Mexican corporation. It had 570 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 1: to be two owners and one had to be a 571 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 1: citizen of Mexico. So we agreed that we would do 572 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 1: that and that we'd open this and run this rental 573 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:19,959 Speaker 1: business together. 574 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 2: So Caesar helped incorporate the business and Carrie started making 575 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 2: offers on rental properties. 576 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 1: We find that one property really fell in love with. 577 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 1: We made an offer on it, and it just starts 578 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: to feel like it's falling into place. We visit another property, 579 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:37,760 Speaker 1: we make a second offer, and then I even find 580 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 1: one more that I want. So we have three houses 581 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 1: that we're going to purchase and then we're going to 582 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 1: start running them. And my thought was, this is going 583 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 1: to be enough income that will become self sustaining. 584 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 2: Carrie supplied all the capital, but she wanted the business 585 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 2: to be a real partnership. 586 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 1: Here I am starting this new relationship used to a 587 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 1: partnership with Brad, used to having everything work really great, 588 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 1: to being a team. I didn't want to start out 589 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,720 Speaker 1: with saying I'm ninety nine percent owner, you're one percent. 590 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 1: It just felt mean, like how do you start a 591 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,480 Speaker 1: marriage on that foot? Like I want to share my 592 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 1: life with you, but you don't get to own this 593 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 1: company because I'm contributing to the company and you're not. 594 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:17,360 Speaker 1: So I made him fifty to fifty owner. 595 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 2: She felt comfortable with this decision, especially because Caesar encouraged 596 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 2: her to get a prenup. 597 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 1: He's saying, you know, I would really feel more comfortable 598 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:30,960 Speaker 1: while we're getting married that you go speak to an 599 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 1: attorney and get a prenuptial agreement. I'm thinking, wow, that's 600 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 1: really wow. Okay, so that in my mindset, you're invested 601 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 1: in the relationship. You're not so invested in the money. 602 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 1: You're invested in the relationship because you want me to 603 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 1: protect myself. 604 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 2: So she made an appointment with an attorney. 605 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 1: The guy sits down with me and he explains prenuptials 606 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 1: how they work. This corporation in Mexico is not governed 607 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 1: by US law. It's governed by Mexico. It says that 608 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 1: in the corporate paperwork all US law, it has no 609 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:06,520 Speaker 1: power in the country of Mexico. So I'm going to 610 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 1: make a prenup on what this seemed to me like 611 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:11,720 Speaker 1: a useless measure. 612 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 2: She decided against a prenup. 613 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 1: But for me to have him think of saying that 614 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 1: really made me feel like, oh, look, you know, just 615 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 1: like in that picnic when we had on that first 616 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 1: date and he carried all the stuff. He's thinking of me. 617 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 1: He cares about me. This is so sweet. 618 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,960 Speaker 2: After all, she believed Caesar had the best intentions, and 619 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 2: there was so much to look forward to. The rental 620 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,720 Speaker 2: property company was off and running, so. 621 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 1: The value of Brad's life insurance has now been spent 622 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 1: on properties. 623 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:47,600 Speaker 2: She really believed in what they were building together. The 624 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 2: last step was getting married so she could officially become 625 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:54,320 Speaker 2: a permanent resident of Mexico. After a trip to the 626 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 2: US to tie up loose ends and finalize the sale 627 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 2: of her home, Kerry returned to Mexico. She and Caesar 628 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 2: plan to get married the following week. 629 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,040 Speaker 1: I come back from that trip and Caesar picks me up. 630 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:09,680 Speaker 1: He's holding flowers and he's rocking back and forth, and 631 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:13,239 Speaker 1: he's white, he's pale, he's jittery. My first question was, 632 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:15,200 Speaker 1: does somebody die? That's what it looks like like. He's 633 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 1: going to tell me very very bad news. And he 634 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 1: starts to cry, and he says, it just hit me 635 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 1: because we're going to get married five days that I'm 636 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 1: still married, And I said what. 637 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 2: On the next episode of Betrayal. 638 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 1: I used to think that you were a good guy 639 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 1: who sometimes wore a monster mask. But what I realized 640 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,480 Speaker 1: that you're actually a monster who sometimes wears a good 641 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 1: guy mask. And then whispers, I'm glad you know. 642 00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 2: If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal 643 00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:00,520 Speaker 2: team or want to tell us your Betrayal story. Email 644 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:04,840 Speaker 2: us at betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal pod 645 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:09,359 Speaker 2: at gmail dot com. We're grateful for your support. One 646 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 2: way to show support is by subscribing to our show 647 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,840 Speaker 2: on Apple Podcasts, and don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. 648 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,239 Speaker 2: Five star reviews go a long way. A big thank 649 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,720 Speaker 2: you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production 650 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,520 Speaker 2: of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in 651 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:28,360 Speaker 2: partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by 652 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,920 Speaker 2: Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by me 653 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:36,800 Speaker 2: Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Monique Leboard, also produced 654 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:41,840 Speaker 2: by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristin Mercury and Caitlin Golden. 655 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,800 Speaker 2: Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Krintech. Audio 656 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:49,640 Speaker 2: editing and mixing by Matt Delvechio, Additional editing support from 657 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:54,760 Speaker 2: Nico Ruka and Tanner Robbins. Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Bains. 658 00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 2: Music library provided by myb Music and For more podcasts 659 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:03,600 Speaker 2: from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 660 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:04,680 Speaker 2: you get your podcasts.