WEBVTT - QLS Classic: Chris Schwartz 0:00:00.480 --> 0:00:04.280 Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. This classic 0:00:04.280 --> 0:00:07.040 episode was produced by the team at Pandora. 0:00:10.440 --> 0:00:12.799 Hey, this is on paid Bill. This week's QLAS classic 0:00:12.840 --> 0:00:15.160 is with Chris Schwartz. In the September twenty four, twenty 0:00:15.240 --> 0:00:17.920 nineteen Combo, Chris talks about co founding rough House Records, 0:00:18.000 --> 0:00:20.040 growing up in Philly, and giving our very own Quest 0:00:20.079 --> 0:00:22.560 Love his first Internship episode one two. 0:00:22.720 --> 0:00:23.479 Here it is. 0:00:31.800 --> 0:00:38.280 Suprema s Sun Suprema roll call Suprema Suh suh Suprema, 0:00:38.479 --> 0:00:44.160 roll call, Suprema su su Suprema, roll call Suprema. 0:00:44.400 --> 0:00:48.880 This is not going to be Suprema. It's my turn. Yeah, 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:50.040 live in you learn. 0:00:50.479 --> 0:00:52.199 Yeah, we're talking to the man. 0:00:52.520 --> 0:00:53.800 Yeah, who let me in? 0:00:53.840 --> 0:01:02.640 Turn Suprema s Supremo roll call Supreme Suck Suck Supremo. 0:01:02.160 --> 0:01:06.800 Rolets in the building. Yeah, and it must be said. Yeah, 0:01:07.120 --> 0:01:08.200 rough House Records. 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:10.160 Yeah, they got all my breads. 0:01:11.400 --> 0:01:18.759 Suprema shun Sun Supremo role Suprema shut Supremo role called. 0:01:18.840 --> 0:01:19.959 My name is Sugar. 0:01:20.319 --> 0:01:20.559 Yeah. 0:01:20.840 --> 0:01:24.600 Last time I lived here, Yeah, I lived with a mayor. Yeah, 0:01:24.920 --> 0:01:26.360 that was a rough House. 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:35.120 Supremo roll Suprema su su supprivo roll. 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:35.839 Boss Bills in the House. 0:01:36.280 --> 0:01:38.959 Yeah, no, I ain't on a plane. Yeah, but I 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:41.839 just might be a little Yeah insane in the pre. 0:01:43.280 --> 0:01:50.360 Supremat Supremo roll call Suprema So Supremo. 0:01:50.000 --> 0:01:53.880 Role my name, Yeah, and that's PRIs Swartz. 0:01:54.240 --> 0:01:54.680 Yeah. 0:01:54.720 --> 0:01:57.440 You may not know this, but he was my boss 0:01:57.480 --> 0:01:58.440 once Roll. 0:01:59.320 --> 0:02:06.360 Supreme Sun Sun Supremo roll call Suprema Sun Sun Supremo. 0:02:06.000 --> 0:02:12.880 Roll for sure hanging out Yeah, Quest Love Supreme. 0:02:19.200 --> 0:02:25.760 Suprema Sun Sun Suprema roll call, Suprema Son Sun Suprema 0:02:25.960 --> 0:02:30.560 Roll Call Suprema Sun Sun Supremo roll call. 0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:40.960 See it wasn't that pretty bad life? Ladies and gentlemen. 0:02:40.960 --> 0:02:45.520 Welcome to another episode of Quest Love Supreme. Uh, Quest 0:02:45.639 --> 0:02:47.240 Love and we have the team Supreme here. 0:02:47.520 --> 0:02:50.000 Hello. Hello, this is your life? 0:02:50.200 --> 0:02:54.600 Yes, I know, right in the house. Yeah yeah, and 0:02:55.000 --> 0:02:58.280 I'm paid. Bill is hear in spirit? 0:02:58.360 --> 0:03:02.560 I'm sorry. Yeah, he's recovering from Boss Bills in. 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:06.359 The house and Sugar Steve good see man, Hey, how 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:07.079 you doing good? 0:03:07.120 --> 0:03:07.880 See everybody? 0:03:08.080 --> 0:03:12.799 Yeah, it's nice to see. I will say that. 0:03:14.480 --> 0:03:21.000 Our guest today was instrumental in giving us a lot 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:26.320 of classic nineties hip hop man listen that shaped us. 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:27.839 Not to mention. 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:31.160 This man also gave me one of my first jobs 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:34.280 that got me into the industry, gave me an edge 0:03:34.320 --> 0:03:39.360 of vacation. I asked for an internship. It's like show 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:41.280 up at ten in the morning, be on time, and 0:03:41.320 --> 0:03:43.120 then I was there. 0:03:44.920 --> 0:03:45.600 What can I say? 0:03:45.680 --> 0:03:51.280 Like Roughhouse Records, Philadelphia's premiere recording label that gave us 0:03:52.600 --> 0:03:58.680 Larry Lair, Cypress Hill, the Fuji's, the Goats, Criss Cross, 0:03:59.400 --> 0:04:03.160 a little unown group called Chris Cross. Uh, even jam 0:04:03.360 --> 0:04:06.000 oh Man Jamal Ski I used to play that John 0:04:06.400 --> 0:04:13.840 Don't do It started the Jamal ski started a slew 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:19.600 of impostafarimators on their label. But even d M X 0:04:19.960 --> 0:04:22.800 not many people know that x is the first single 0:04:22.839 --> 0:04:23.560 was on rough House. 0:04:23.680 --> 0:04:25.760 Uh, I mean school. 0:04:26.160 --> 0:04:30.080 There's so many like uh, book coming out? Yes, when 0:04:30.160 --> 0:04:31.360 in the title of the book. 0:04:32.000 --> 0:04:34.680 Rough House from the streets affiliate to the top of 0:04:34.680 --> 0:04:35.080 the hippop. 0:04:35.120 --> 0:04:38.280 Yes, I didn't know what the practices is called Ladies 0:04:38.279 --> 0:04:41.360 don't give it. From the one and only Chris Wartz. 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:44.440 Yes, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. 0:04:45.800 --> 0:04:47.000 Man full circle. 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:51.200 Yes, yes, Worts, I mean last time I seen you man, 0:04:51.480 --> 0:04:52.200 you know we. 0:04:52.000 --> 0:04:56.520 Were I talk about this all the time. I remember, Oh, 0:04:56.600 --> 0:05:00.479 he's seeing you either at the airport or the trains. 0:05:00.839 --> 0:05:04.120 You were always on the move. And I remember I 0:05:04.160 --> 0:05:07.880 was telling Leyah, I was driving to thirty Street station 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:13.360 with somebody from New York, and I said, I'll bet 0:05:13.400 --> 0:05:17.840 you right now, like twenty bucks that we're going to 0:05:17.920 --> 0:05:18.880 see a mirror. 0:05:19.400 --> 0:05:19.679 Right. 0:05:19.960 --> 0:05:22.560 So we got to the train station, you weren't there, 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:25.800 and I forked over the twenty. 0:05:26.279 --> 0:05:27.240 But then when. 0:05:27.040 --> 0:05:30.600 We were leaving New York to come back, you were 0:05:30.600 --> 0:05:31.320 at the train station. 0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:32.520 See. 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:36.720 I'm never well, See I'm the opposite of general. Never 0:05:36.760 --> 0:05:42.960 on time, but always there, never there. I have so 0:05:43.000 --> 0:05:45.280 many questions. I mean, I've known you for so long 0:05:45.400 --> 0:05:50.000 but never knew your true story? Right, but where were 0:05:50.040 --> 0:05:51.840 you born? Were you born in Philadelphia? 0:05:52.279 --> 0:05:55.080 In a hospital in Philadelphia? Technically? Yeah, I was worn 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:56.160 at Jefferson Hospital. 0:05:56.279 --> 0:05:58.960 Okay, yeah, okay. What part of Philly did you grow 0:05:59.040 --> 0:05:59.200 up in? 0:05:59.400 --> 0:06:02.080 I grew up in I grew up out out in 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:03.240 the farmlands. 0:06:03.440 --> 0:06:07.840 Okay, you say that with pride a lot of people. No, no, no, 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:08.599 I'm not I'm not riky. 0:06:08.800 --> 0:06:11.520 I'm just saying that when people who are not in 0:06:11.520 --> 0:06:14.280 Philadelphia see me, they're like hey. 0:06:14.200 --> 0:06:14.880 I'm from Philly. 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:17.000 I was like, oh we're we're part Evan. They get 0:06:17.000 --> 0:06:17.560 to seem like. 0:06:19.720 --> 0:06:25.480 No, no, no Salem or you know, come shocking. Yeah yeah, Devon, 0:06:26.200 --> 0:06:30.640 yeah Devon. Uh where I was, where I grew up. 0:06:30.760 --> 0:06:31.320 It was. 0:06:32.920 --> 0:06:39.240 Like farmland, and then my neighborhood was this little like uh, 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:43.400 I guess it was like a World War two, you know, 0:06:43.520 --> 0:06:45.320 post World War two little development. 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:50.160 And but you know, I. 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:54.440 Left home at seventeen and uh joined the service and 0:06:54.800 --> 0:07:00.920 spent really yeah okay, which brings navy Okay, yeah wow, 0:07:01.120 --> 0:07:02.200 oh yeah, it's on the book. 0:07:02.839 --> 0:07:04.680 But never I'm that discipline cars. 0:07:04.800 --> 0:07:08.719 Yeah yeah, right, well that explains a lot. 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:13.840 Uh what'd you I mean? Were you always uh sort 0:07:13.840 --> 0:07:17.000 of drawn to music or oh? 0:07:17.040 --> 0:07:18.640 Absolutely absolutely? 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:21.280 I mean since uh, well I got I grew up 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:25.240 in a family of ten kids. Wow, so uh at 0:07:25.320 --> 0:07:30.280 number seven? Okay, So I have four older brothers and 0:07:30.360 --> 0:07:36.080 two older sisters. So growing up, you know, you know, 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:40.760 I'm I was born in nineteen sixty, so having old 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:42.640 you see, it's the thing my family was set up. 0:07:42.680 --> 0:07:45.320 It was like two groups of kids. There was the 0:07:45.400 --> 0:07:50.200 older kids, right, and and then my parents had another 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:56.200 five kids later on. So for instance, when I was 0:07:57.680 --> 0:08:02.560 I guess five or six, my oldest brother came home 0:08:02.640 --> 0:08:06.080 from he went to college and he started his first 0:08:06.160 --> 0:08:10.680 job and then he moved back from Ohio to our house. 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:15.600 I didn't know who he was. I mean, yeah, literally, no, 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:18.520 It's like one day, one day, I'm you know, my 0:08:18.680 --> 0:08:22.080 mother wake up and my mother's talking to this guy 0:08:22.520 --> 0:08:26.960 and you know, he's got like bushy blonde hair and 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:29.600 a scraggly beard, and he's standing at the top of 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:32.600 the stairs in his underwear talking to my mother. And 0:08:32.640 --> 0:08:34.880 my mother's talking to him like, you know, she's doing 0:08:34.880 --> 0:08:37.040 them all her life. And I'm like, I'm standing behinder 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:38.560 like who, like who is this? 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:39.000 You know? 0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:45.160 So but but but back to you know, so I 0:08:45.240 --> 0:08:49.559 grew up in a house like a lot of music 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:53.520 from the sixties and the seventies, you know, was constantly 0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:56.319 playing from different rooms, and. 0:08:58.000 --> 0:09:01.079 So yeah, I. 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:02.719 Was particularly you know, there was a lot there was 0:09:02.760 --> 0:09:06.120 two things going on. You had the definitive pop radio, 0:09:06.160 --> 0:09:09.920 which was AM radio, which was just pop hits, and 0:09:10.480 --> 0:09:15.280 then you had the progressive FM rock stage. 0:09:15.360 --> 0:09:17.520 So were you a wizard one hundred head? 0:09:18.600 --> 0:09:22.120 No, it was actually WFI l oh okay, Yeah, And 0:09:22.160 --> 0:09:26.520 then and then there you had WYSP and w WMMR 0:09:26.840 --> 0:09:30.439 WMMR for people from Philly. You probably don't know that 0:09:30.520 --> 0:09:33.560 it was actually one of the first underground FM rock 0:09:33.600 --> 0:09:37.680 stay in the country. Every Saturday at twelve o'clock at night, 0:09:37.880 --> 0:09:42.440 they play an entire album like new outline artists and you, 0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:44.920 and they would tell you how to set your dollby 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:50.360 on your tape deck to record. It's really yeah, yeah, 0:09:50.840 --> 0:09:52.320 really yep, damn. 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:53.600 I didn't realize that. 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:56.880 So you you weren't You weren't part of the generation 0:09:57.000 --> 0:10:01.160 listenings up because I know that Wizard one hundred on 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:02.439 the AM dial. 0:10:05.200 --> 0:10:07.560 Was kind of like that. 0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:10.640 Actually that actually may have been a little bit before 0:10:10.760 --> 0:10:11.959 my listening years. 0:10:12.200 --> 0:10:13.840 Okay, yeah, yeah. 0:10:13.880 --> 0:10:16.760 All right, No, I just you know, the house was 0:10:16.760 --> 0:10:19.720 always on my radio, like in the house, that radio 0:10:19.800 --> 0:10:20.400 was always on. 0:10:21.080 --> 0:10:23.679 House wasn't always on my radio. Radio was always on 0:10:23.960 --> 0:10:24.360 my house. 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:31.400 Yeah, but usually on the weekends, uh, like Saturday and 0:10:31.480 --> 0:10:36.440 Sunday like Casey Casem's countdown we come on that station whatnot. 0:10:36.480 --> 0:10:40.640 But all right, so you straight up FM kid, Yeah, 0:10:40.960 --> 0:10:44.000 do you remember what the music environment was like in 0:10:44.000 --> 0:10:46.040 Philadelphia as far as the nightlife was concerned. 0:10:46.120 --> 0:10:47.480 Or anything, or did you have to go to New 0:10:47.559 --> 0:10:47.960 York too? 0:10:48.800 --> 0:10:52.720 Well, when I was, I mean it was like when 0:10:52.720 --> 0:10:57.880 I was, when I was like like a uh teenager, 0:10:58.800 --> 0:11:03.760 the music of Philadelphia was really more primarily known because 0:11:03.800 --> 0:11:06.760 of pir you know, it was really known as the 0:11:07.360 --> 0:11:12.079 you know, you had you had the you had Motown oheys. 0:11:12.600 --> 0:11:17.000 But Philly, Philly was known as is the place where 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:19.760 you know, it played a big part of the disco era. 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:25.840 You know, it did the tramps and everything like that. So, uh, 0:11:25.840 --> 0:11:27.280 but your coming of age was more. 0:11:27.200 --> 0:11:32.120 Post yeah, assuming twenty one, twenty two whatever. 0:11:32.080 --> 0:11:35.440 Like, yeah, well I would well I was, uh, I 0:11:35.480 --> 0:11:41.240 would have been twenty one in nineteen eighty eighty one 0:11:41.400 --> 0:11:44.000 eighty one, Yeah, yeah, nineteen eighty one. 0:11:44.160 --> 0:11:49.360 So what were the musical options after the initial primary 0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:52.280 disco duh? 0:11:52.280 --> 0:11:55.120 Well, oh so we're talking about that peak period. 0:11:55.200 --> 0:11:59.960 Yeah, yeah, nineteen eighty one it was it was uh, 0:12:00.320 --> 0:12:05.199 you know it you had Lady b Power ninety nine. 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:08.600 Okay, yeah, that's so you were a head. 0:12:09.440 --> 0:12:12.800 Oh right, oh yeah, nineteen eighty one mostly yeah, Well, 0:12:12.840 --> 0:12:14.920 here's it was. It was two things. It was hip 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:21.120 hop on one part of it, right, and then uh my. 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:23.520 My sort of bass. 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:27.959 Formative thing was I was really into electronic music. 0:12:28.520 --> 0:12:30.600 That was that was it? Like to me? 0:12:31.080 --> 0:12:34.320 Craft Work? Yeah, craft work, see because I had listen. 0:12:34.320 --> 0:12:36.760 I've been listening to craft Work since I was a kid. 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:39.520 I mean I went to see I want to see 0:12:39.640 --> 0:12:45.240 them perform Audubon at the Valley Forge Music Fair because Audubon. 0:12:46.080 --> 0:12:47.680 Here's here's what a lot of people know. 0:12:47.960 --> 0:12:52.240 Wfi L used to play the entire album version of Audubon. 0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:57.560 The three longest songs in history of AM pop radio 0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:01.400 were Tubular Bells by Michaelfield, which was the because it 0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:04.319 was the theme for The Exorcist. Uh, and it Gotta 0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:08.720 Vita by Iron Butterfly, and then you had Audubon and 0:13:08.760 --> 0:13:12.840 they used to play it, you know, the entire thing 0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:16.600 on pop radio. So they they did a show at 0:13:16.640 --> 0:13:19.560 the Valley Forge Music Fair and I went there with 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:20.240 my best friend. 0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:21.840 Yeah. 0:13:21.960 --> 0:13:24.200 No, no, no, no, no, that's the new value for it. 0:13:24.200 --> 0:13:25.160 That's the later on. 0:13:25.840 --> 0:13:29.880 Valley Forge Music Fair actually started as a tent really yeah, 0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:32.160 it was a big tent. It was like a seasonal thing. 0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:34.520 They'd have like you know, Fiddler on the Roof and 0:13:34.559 --> 0:13:40.520 stuff like that. And they had just built the first one. 0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:43.800 The first incarnation of it, right and uh yeah, and 0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:47.120 it was like I went there and was just two guys, 0:13:47.400 --> 0:13:50.240 you know, Ralph and Florian and like big stacks of 0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:51.440 keyboards and everything. 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:56.800 Uh and it was it was. It was very cool. 0:13:56.840 --> 0:13:59.880 I was so futuristic. Yeah, they were the daft punk. 0:14:00.160 --> 0:14:05.560 Yeah, well it's it's funny if they they were, you 0:14:05.600 --> 0:14:07.920 know the way I kind of see it daft punk. 0:14:09.880 --> 0:14:13.199 Really yeah. If if there's been no craft. 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:16.240 Works, I'm not sure craft work, yes, yeah, I see 0:14:16.240 --> 0:14:16.920 what you mean. 0:14:17.679 --> 0:14:21.160 Wait, is the Valley Ford's Music Fair still around today? 0:14:21.560 --> 0:14:22.200 I don't think so. 0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:25.840 I think there's a there's either a Red Lobster or 0:14:26.280 --> 0:14:32.280 damn something. Yeah, like Criss Cross show there, yea with 0:14:32.320 --> 0:14:35.280 Doctor Dre and Ed really yeah, it. 0:14:35.320 --> 0:14:37.280 Was, it was yeah. 0:14:37.320 --> 0:14:42.560 So yeah they closed in ninety six, really damn. Yes, 0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:47.200 there's always my dream to to play there, like my 0:14:47.520 --> 0:14:50.160 dad played there once. But like they would have a 0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:54.800 rotating stage in the round thing and yeah, one could 0:14:54.840 --> 0:14:58.320 get dizzy or lose their since. So yeah, depending on 0:14:58.360 --> 0:15:02.680 how many degrees the how fast the stage was turning. 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:05.480 When I was thirteen, I worked at a banquet house 0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:09.920 down the street, washing dishes and all the whoever was 0:15:10.000 --> 0:15:12.760 playing at the Value Forge Music Fair used to come 0:15:12.800 --> 0:15:17.440 to stop. Yeah, they go there to eat and I 0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:22.000 met a lot of people like Mac Davis. 0:15:22.600 --> 0:15:23.160 Oh, Dann. 0:15:23.320 --> 0:15:26.640 I changed a flat tire for zero Mastell's limo. 0:15:27.200 --> 0:15:31.920 Really yeah, damn, gave me ride home, gave me fifty bucks. 0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:34.280 Wow, fix a limo and get a lift. 0:15:35.080 --> 0:15:39.040 Do you remember the club Cahoots There was like a Sheridan, 0:15:39.160 --> 0:15:42.360 a circular Sheridan hotel like in the area. 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:47.800 Uh yeah, in Value Yeah. I never had reason to 0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:50.800 frequent the club. Yeah, but I know they had that. 0:15:50.800 --> 0:15:54.160 That's the place that had the themed hotel rooms. 0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:58.600 Yeah, top yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm going down Philly memory Lane. 0:15:58.640 --> 0:15:59.240 You know, I'm sorry. 0:15:59.280 --> 0:15:59.960 I always wanted to go. 0:16:00.600 --> 0:16:02.000 Yeah. 0:16:02.040 --> 0:16:04.560 So for you like listening to Lady B, Well, Lady 0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:08.960 B started off on w H A t Mary Do 0:16:09.000 --> 0:16:10.640 you remember Mary Mason? 0:16:10.840 --> 0:16:11.040 Yeah? 0:16:11.160 --> 0:16:13.800 Yeah, Mary Ma, she was still on h she was 0:16:13.800 --> 0:16:15.640 still Yeah. 0:16:15.680 --> 0:16:20.680 So, like they had a Saturday hip hop show, one 0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:23.400 of the very first ones that Philadelphia had. 0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:27.440 So I know that Lady B started. 0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:31.240 At H at like nineteen eighty till, which is weird 0:16:31.280 --> 0:16:35.800 considering that hip hop, you know, two years in having 0:16:35.800 --> 0:16:38.240 a two hour format you know, you only had like 0:16:38.320 --> 0:16:40.760 thirty records to choose from. Uh, so you had to 0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:42.800 play all those sixteen minute songs. 0:16:43.160 --> 0:16:45.120 And then they took her over the station that was 0:16:45.200 --> 0:16:49.720 the there was the uh I think it was w 0:16:49.840 --> 0:16:53.920 io Q right. Then they became uh, it was Yesterday's 0:16:53.920 --> 0:16:54.720 now Music Today. 0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:55.680 It was like new wave. 0:16:56.600 --> 0:17:00.320 Then I think they moved her there and they build 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:03.440 up the ratings like they she was there, like it 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:07.120 could have been you know, I might have my facts wrong, 0:17:07.200 --> 0:17:09.719 but I believe it. They would play it was all 0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:12.359 hip hop. It was massive. They sponsored shows at the 0:17:12.400 --> 0:17:16.240 after midnight and then they sold it. Oh really, And 0:17:16.320 --> 0:17:17.760 I think she went to Paradise. 0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:21.359 Yeh kicking out Once she came to parat nine eighty four, 0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:26.080 briefly had an afternoon Sunday show from like twelve in 0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:30.880 the afternoon till uh maybe five pm on Sunday afternoon. 0:17:31.520 --> 0:17:33.240 And I mean there she would play hip hop and 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:36.439 uh the electronica of the day, so sort of like 0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:39.840 Nucleus and uh gem on, yeah. 0:17:39.600 --> 0:17:42.560 That sort of you know, anything that sounds like planet rock. 0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:46.680 And then she went away and then yeah, and then 0:17:46.760 --> 0:17:49.080 returned in nineteen eighty seven. 0:17:49.720 --> 0:17:51.760 Did you start out as management. First, Like, what was 0:17:51.800 --> 0:17:54.680 your first job in the industream I played? I played 0:17:54.680 --> 0:17:58.440 in bands, okay, and who did you play with? I? Well, 0:17:58.520 --> 0:18:01.440 my first my first thing when I when I when 0:18:01.560 --> 0:18:05.359 I joined when I joined the Navy, I played in 0:18:05.640 --> 0:18:06.679 I started a band with. 0:18:06.680 --> 0:18:08.600 A bunch of other sailors and we did a bunch 0:18:08.640 --> 0:18:09.119 of gigs. 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:15.919 And when I came home, I regrouped with my best 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:17.200 childhood friend, Jeff Coulter. 0:18:17.320 --> 0:18:18.040 He was a drummer. 0:18:18.800 --> 0:18:23.080 So when I was in the service, he started really 0:18:23.080 --> 0:18:25.919 getting into you know, because of craft work. He started 0:18:25.920 --> 0:18:28.440 getting into these other I mean craft work is kind 0:18:28.440 --> 0:18:32.120 of like at the at the apex of this whole 0:18:32.520 --> 0:18:38.760 like community, like of all these German groups like Klau Schultze, Tangerine. 0:18:38.240 --> 0:18:41.280 Dream, NOI, uh everything. 0:18:44.080 --> 0:18:49.040 And so when I came home, he had like literally 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:52.640 over a thousand records of this stuff. And we get 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:56.320 him at either Plastic Fantastic and Ardmore or the basement 0:18:56.359 --> 0:19:00.879 of basement of Third Street Jazz. You mentioned Plastic Fantastic, 0:19:00.880 --> 0:19:02.640 one of the greatest record stores ever. 0:19:02.520 --> 0:19:04.960 Right down the street from when I sold insurance on 0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:05.840 Lancaster Avenue. 0:19:05.920 --> 0:19:08.520 Yeah, yeah, I would take my entire sector. 0:19:08.720 --> 0:19:08.880 Yeah. 0:19:09.200 --> 0:19:13.000 Well, and here's the thing the the the basement of 0:19:13.040 --> 0:19:16.840 Third Street Jazz. That's all that was. And you would, 0:19:16.840 --> 0:19:19.840 you know, like a cloud Schultz import was like one 0:19:19.920 --> 0:19:22.840 hundred and twenty bucks, but you bought it because this 0:19:23.119 --> 0:19:27.080 was like, you know, Kloud's doing a like two sides 0:19:27.119 --> 0:19:29.920 of a duet with some famous cellis and Klouds is 0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:32.120 playing with the Gens computer and. 0:19:31.960 --> 0:19:33.600 You know, it's just very cool stuff. 0:19:34.040 --> 0:19:39.880 So so I had a set of Degan electro Vibes. 0:19:39.960 --> 0:19:43.240 It's a portable vibe set of vibraphones that you like 0:19:43.280 --> 0:19:47.480 a suitcase and the stands. So I bought all my equipment, 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:50.520 had it shipped back, and him and I joined up 0:19:50.560 --> 0:19:54.359 and we started this group called Tangent and we were, 0:19:55.160 --> 0:20:00.959 you know, just devotees to electronic music. So you were, oh, 0:20:01.200 --> 0:20:04.360 well yeah with w XPN. So w XPN had two 0:20:04.440 --> 0:20:07.800 radio shows. One was called Diaspar and the other what's 0:20:07.800 --> 0:20:12.760 called stars End. They played and supported electronic music. We 0:20:12.800 --> 0:20:16.880 did shows. So we did a tape for them and 0:20:17.160 --> 0:20:20.399 uh I remember we drove down to their station on 0:20:20.480 --> 0:20:25.679 Spruce Street and jumped out of the car, double parked, 0:20:25.760 --> 0:20:28.320 ran in, knocked on the door. Some guy, you know, 0:20:28.359 --> 0:20:31.439 the buzzer opens the door, takes the tape, and like 0:20:31.640 --> 0:20:35.560 three nights later we're you know, every night, that's all 0:20:35.600 --> 0:20:38.720 we did was jam and record. And we stopped to 0:20:38.800 --> 0:20:43.600 listen to two Stars end and John de Liberto comes 0:20:43.600 --> 0:20:45.440 on and says, yeah, we got a new tape from 0:20:45.880 --> 0:20:49.560 a group from Philadelphia called Tangent Chris Schwartz and Jeff Culter, 0:20:50.000 --> 0:20:51.280 and we're hearing the stuff. 0:20:51.520 --> 0:20:51.680 Now. 0:20:51.720 --> 0:20:54.040 I've been at you know, I've been at the Navy 0:20:54.080 --> 0:20:59.640 now three months and I'm already you know. So they 0:21:00.200 --> 0:21:03.159 this week we went and played their picnic there that 0:21:03.240 --> 0:21:08.720 they had, and then we were we did a show 0:21:08.840 --> 0:21:11.159 at the East Side Club where we did Audubon. We 0:21:11.200 --> 0:21:16.240 played the whole version of Audubon there and uh met 0:21:16.240 --> 0:21:19.400 this this girl who was a filmmaker, and she introduced 0:21:19.440 --> 0:21:21.879 me to these guys had a band called Rhythm of Lines. 0:21:22.440 --> 0:21:26.200 Uh at this in this period in Philadelphia. Philadelphia had 0:21:26.240 --> 0:21:31.120 this really amazing live music scene for for bands, and 0:21:31.640 --> 0:21:33.520 there was you know, is when you go down the 0:21:33.560 --> 0:21:37.000 South Street or and you'd see these bills on on 0:21:37.119 --> 0:21:41.320 telephone poles and there'd be like shows every night. You 0:21:41.359 --> 0:21:43.359 could go out, you could go out and see any 0:21:43.440 --> 0:21:50.080 number of uh, the Stickman, the Vells, Pretty Poison, Yeah, 0:21:50.200 --> 0:21:56.000 Pretty Poison. So yeah, so so we joined. Jeff and 0:21:56.040 --> 0:21:58.600 I joined this bigger band called Rhythm of Lines, and 0:21:58.640 --> 0:22:01.680 it was more like a New Order Talking Heads type thing. 0:22:02.240 --> 0:22:04.000 And we we we. 0:22:03.920 --> 0:22:06.080 Did a bunch of shows opened up for Pretty Poison, 0:22:06.240 --> 0:22:10.640 the Vells, shows of the Stickman. We did shows at Blondies, 0:22:10.840 --> 0:22:17.119 Emerald Cities, Bigelow's, Phillies and the East Side Club and 0:22:17.440 --> 0:22:20.080 h But I wanted to get a record deal. 0:22:20.240 --> 0:22:23.520 That was my big thing. I wanted to, you know, 0:22:23.600 --> 0:22:24.400 get a record deal. 0:22:24.920 --> 0:22:28.119 And you know, the guys, the the other guys in 0:22:28.200 --> 0:22:31.400 the in the in the band, they weren't I don't 0:22:31.400 --> 0:22:35.640 know they they just had their priorities were in peculiar places, 0:22:35.680 --> 0:22:41.000 I'll know. So, uh, Jeff and I left. We uh 0:22:41.080 --> 0:22:44.600 we ended up moving to a house in West Philly. 0:22:45.000 --> 0:22:48.320 Uh that a friend of mine, Rich Murray, who was 0:22:48.359 --> 0:22:53.040 a Temple film grad. Yeah yeah, Rich, and so we 0:22:53.080 --> 0:22:56.359 all we moved in together. We uh we put a 0:22:56.400 --> 0:22:58.280 student we created put our studio. 0:22:57.880 --> 0:22:58.679 In one of the rooms. 0:22:59.440 --> 0:23:04.440 And so Jeff and I were now doing more traditional 0:23:04.640 --> 0:23:11.280 dance music and met this girl, Robin Carter, who was 0:23:12.119 --> 0:23:15.560 her they called her astro girl because she had this, uh, 0:23:15.640 --> 0:23:19.520 this total affinity for anything related to NASA and space travel. 0:23:19.920 --> 0:23:23.000 She actually went on to get her degree in astrophysics 0:23:23.040 --> 0:23:25.920 and she does work for NASA as we speak, really crazy. 0:23:26.119 --> 0:23:30.440 But she was a saxophone player. Her her her landlord 0:23:30.600 --> 0:23:32.439 was Jack right from Spring Guarden Music. 0:23:32.720 --> 0:23:35.840 So she you're naming. 0:23:35.600 --> 0:23:39.400 All these like Philly legends of record store owners and yeah, 0:23:39.520 --> 0:23:42.600 shout out to Michael mcquochan, also from Third Street Jazz. 0:23:42.840 --> 0:23:44.720 Yeah, you give me all the good ship. 0:23:45.320 --> 0:23:50.320 So we we uh, she she joined up with us. 0:23:50.720 --> 0:23:53.880 We came up with that. We called ourselves the Ultronics, right. 0:23:54.200 --> 0:23:59.280 And we we started doing gigs and she got us 0:23:59.280 --> 0:24:05.480 a gig at to get Llery Mall. 0:24:04.160 --> 0:24:07.600 It was a little different, you know. 0:24:09.119 --> 0:24:12.239 So you know, we're doing our thing and people are 0:24:12.320 --> 0:24:15.160 kind of coming there, standing there carrying their shopping bags. 0:24:15.160 --> 0:24:18.159 They're looking at us for about three or four minutes 0:24:18.200 --> 0:24:19.000 and walking away. 0:24:20.040 --> 0:24:23.639 But there was a group of kids who were like 0:24:24.320 --> 0:24:27.760 watching us intently the whole time, and they're like talking 0:24:27.800 --> 0:24:33.640 amongst themselves, right, and they're just like so when we're done, 0:24:34.600 --> 0:24:39.240 they kind of like they they they walk over and 0:24:39.960 --> 0:24:44.800 this kid introduces himself, his name is Clinton Shirley and 0:24:46.040 --> 0:24:51.359 his stage name was Kid Fresh and he and he said, 0:24:51.920 --> 0:24:55.159 you know, we're hip hop group and we'd like to 0:24:55.240 --> 0:24:56.480 know could you guys. 0:24:56.200 --> 0:24:57.480 Help us do some beats. 0:24:58.240 --> 0:25:01.879 So we bought them over to our house and like 0:25:02.000 --> 0:25:05.080 the next week and we did a bunch of tracks 0:25:05.119 --> 0:25:09.399 on the second floor and made this tape. 0:25:09.920 --> 0:25:10.240 And so. 0:25:11.720 --> 0:25:14.280 You know, by this time, we had amassed a bunch 0:25:14.320 --> 0:25:18.440 of twelve inch dance records. So I started looking through 0:25:18.480 --> 0:25:21.800 these records because I remembered there was a record label 0:25:21.840 --> 0:25:27.800 in Philadelphia and it was Virtue Virtue Records, and I 0:25:27.840 --> 0:25:31.280 got the phone number. Now I got to go back 0:25:31.320 --> 0:25:35.080 a little bit because Rich being you know, as a filmmaker, 0:25:35.160 --> 0:25:37.520 he was doing these videos for Philly World Records and 0:25:37.600 --> 0:25:39.040 he got me the gig as being. 0:25:38.880 --> 0:25:40.640 The caterer during these video shoots. 0:25:40.720 --> 0:25:45.520 Right, So I had met Donald Robinson and Donald came 0:25:45.560 --> 0:25:47.320 over to our house. I tried to get him to 0:25:47.400 --> 0:25:49.760 produce us, and he said, yeah, I get what you're doing, 0:25:49.800 --> 0:25:50.600 but your song suck. 0:25:50.680 --> 0:25:52.000 And I was like, all right, I get it. 0:25:52.160 --> 0:25:55.679 But but the thing is, it's that when I called 0:25:55.680 --> 0:25:59.840 the number on Virtue Recording, I I kind of took 0:25:59.840 --> 0:26:03.840 the liberty of bolstering the narrative and telling Frank Virtue 0:26:03.840 --> 0:26:07.680 that I was I was working with Donald Robinson. And 0:26:08.200 --> 0:26:11.080 that got Frank's attention and he said, come on up. 0:26:11.480 --> 0:26:14.720 So I went up to Frank and I played him 0:26:14.760 --> 0:26:16.120 this uh this stuff. 0:26:16.440 --> 0:26:17.320 He listened to it. 0:26:17.800 --> 0:26:22.040 Now, Frank had been working as a partnership with the 0:26:22.080 --> 0:26:25.240 guy named Vince de Rosa, who owned a company called 0:26:25.320 --> 0:26:29.199 Soundmakers in Jersey and for folks who might not know 0:26:29.359 --> 0:26:33.080 or maybe be interested, sound Makers in the eighties pressed 0:26:33.200 --> 0:26:38.840 up all the records for Next Plateau, Sleeping Bag, Tommy Boy, 0:26:41.000 --> 0:26:43.880 even Death Jam, Yeah, all the indie labels. 0:26:44.240 --> 0:26:47.440 So they were the disc makers of yeah oh yeah, 0:26:47.480 --> 0:26:47.800 oh wait. 0:26:49.080 --> 0:26:51.320 We should also know that Donald Robinson didn't he write 0:26:51.440 --> 0:26:52.960 Dreaming for Vanessa Williams? 0:26:53.200 --> 0:26:57.760 Yeah, yeah, yeah, Donald, Donald did lots of Uyah, Eugene Wilde, 0:26:57.840 --> 0:26:59.359 you know, to get you home to you know what 0:26:59.359 --> 0:27:01.399 I got to tell you, Well, that song, you know, 0:27:01.520 --> 0:27:04.960 that song was a was a was really just doing 0:27:05.040 --> 0:27:07.560 sexual healing right coming whole vibe. 0:27:07.880 --> 0:27:10.560 But it was still a great song, you know. 0:27:11.359 --> 0:27:14.000 Uh So yeah, well that's where I met Donald because 0:27:14.040 --> 0:27:18.920 I was a caterer on Rich was doing the video. Yeah, 0:27:19.680 --> 0:27:25.000 so so Frank Frank Virtue and for people to know 0:27:25.119 --> 0:27:27.560 he was a music industry old timer. 0:27:28.080 --> 0:27:28.479 He uh. 0:27:28.760 --> 0:27:31.600 He played in the Philadelphia Orchestra as a teenager. He 0:27:31.680 --> 0:27:37.280 was a prodigy violinist and he led he he he. 0:27:37.359 --> 0:27:39.800 They drafted him to the Navy to lead a big 0:27:39.840 --> 0:27:43.040 band dance band in the Navy. He got out and 0:27:43.160 --> 0:27:45.679 he had a group called the Virtues and the Virtue 0:27:45.720 --> 0:27:48.400 with the Virtues and the Virtuoso's, he had a couple 0:27:48.640 --> 0:27:52.480 hit songs. He had Guitar Shuffle Boogie, the Horse, the 0:27:52.560 --> 0:27:55.919 Return of the Horse. He toured with like Patty Page 0:27:55.960 --> 0:27:58.040 and somebody sent me something on Facebook the other day. 0:27:58.040 --> 0:28:00.560 He actually did shows with the Three Stooges. It's a 0:28:00.600 --> 0:28:05.200 warm a back row three Stooges. Yeah really yeah so 0:28:05.200 --> 0:28:11.800 so so we Frank and Vince formed this record company 0:28:11.800 --> 0:28:16.760 called Slice Records, and Clinton Shirley was one of their 0:28:16.840 --> 0:28:20.400 kid fresh was their first artists. So we we did 0:28:20.440 --> 0:28:24.560 these records up at Frank's and it was a pretty 0:28:24.560 --> 0:28:28.120 pathetic affair in terms of a label. The pressing plan 0:28:28.280 --> 0:28:30.800 hired this guy in a pickup truck to drive Clinton 0:28:30.920 --> 0:28:32.960 and his hype guy around. 0:28:32.600 --> 0:28:36.120 To the to the to the to the venues and everything, 0:28:36.160 --> 0:28:39.640 and nothing ever came of it. Uh. But Clinton later 0:28:39.720 --> 0:28:45.720 on uh changed his name to Mike Elliott. Oh yeah, 0:28:45.760 --> 0:28:51.280 I knew that I was lean up. Yeah. Yeah, Mike 0:28:51.320 --> 0:28:54.320 Elliott the Source. But you know, but here's the thing. 0:28:54.440 --> 0:28:58.440 He he He actually co wrote the What's the Kid 0:28:58.520 --> 0:29:02.280 the Sneaker the movie? 0:29:02.680 --> 0:29:06.880 No, Mike Kelly did the Source Awards. Well yeah, hang on, 0:29:06.960 --> 0:29:09.320 I gotta look. Yeah, Mike Elliot is one of the 0:29:09.360 --> 0:29:13.520 original uh source guy. 0:29:13.640 --> 0:29:17.000 Yeah. Yeah, I didn't wait, I didn't realize. 0:29:17.200 --> 0:29:20.840 I forgot. He also had his own video show. He 0:29:20.880 --> 0:29:25.160 had his own video show in Philadelphia. It's killing me now. 0:29:25.360 --> 0:29:29.240 He went in the movies. Uh, Mike Elliott developed the 0:29:29.320 --> 0:29:37.000 Carmen movie Most and most us birthing sometimes in this 0:29:37.400 --> 0:29:38.720 in this very room that we're in. 0:29:39.400 --> 0:29:42.240 Uh. But yeah, Mike Elliott is a fully legend. 0:29:42.520 --> 0:29:42.760 Yeah. 0:29:42.800 --> 0:29:45.800 He did the script Brown Sugar, I believe, so I 0:29:45.880 --> 0:29:48.040 know that he got into filmmaking heavy. 0:29:48.200 --> 0:29:52.760 Yeah he No, he did the something like Mike the 0:29:53.520 --> 0:29:54.720 about the kid in the orphanage. 0:29:54.760 --> 0:29:56.040 Yeah, like Mike, like Mike. 0:29:56.120 --> 0:30:00.200 No, something like Mike. Brown Sugar was his first. Uh No, 0:30:00.560 --> 0:30:01.720 but this here's the thing. 0:30:02.520 --> 0:30:07.080 Rich Murray and I were out in La this years 0:30:07.160 --> 0:30:11.240 later and we're we're at some some film company, some studio, 0:30:11.760 --> 0:30:14.880 and the guy were sitting there and somehow we hear 0:30:14.960 --> 0:30:17.960 Mike Elliott's names, like Mike Elliott, I know, Mike, Mike Elliott, 0:30:18.240 --> 0:30:20.920 and and he said, uh, oh yeah, you know he's 0:30:20.960 --> 0:30:25.040 a hot property right now because he did this the movie. 0:30:25.440 --> 0:30:28.000 It's about a kid in an orphanage and something to 0:30:28.040 --> 0:30:30.480 do with a pair of sneakers, like and Michael. 0:30:30.240 --> 0:30:32.640 George like Mike like Mike. 0:30:33.120 --> 0:30:35.719 Yeah yeah he did like Mike with bo. 0:30:36.200 --> 0:30:36.920 Yeah. 0:30:37.520 --> 0:30:42.880 So I'm sorry, so so so so I So then 0:30:42.960 --> 0:30:45.520 then the thing is the trade off was Frank would 0:30:45.600 --> 0:30:47.680 let me use the studio to develop acts. 0:30:47.880 --> 0:30:50.960 I had to help him. Frank had a gospel. 0:30:50.560 --> 0:30:53.600 Business, and what it would be is that, you know 0:30:53.840 --> 0:30:58.200 a lot of the bigger churches would record their gospel choirs. 0:30:58.760 --> 0:31:02.760 They press up the records and sell them to the 0:31:02.800 --> 0:31:04.120 congregation to raise money. 0:31:04.640 --> 0:31:07.040 And so that was a big business of Frank's. 0:31:07.400 --> 0:31:13.800 Frank actually, interestingly enough, had a a very you know, 0:31:14.320 --> 0:31:18.400 back before Sigma Sound and these companies, everybody went to 0:31:18.480 --> 0:31:22.040 Virtue to record. Kenny, Kenny and Leon did a lot 0:31:22.080 --> 0:31:26.000 of their early stuff up there and Frank, you know, 0:31:26.320 --> 0:31:28.960 I don't know if some many listeners don't know about 0:31:29.000 --> 0:31:32.320 the mastering process, but after record has made and mixed, 0:31:32.480 --> 0:31:35.000 it has to be mastered. And what mastering. 0:31:34.640 --> 0:31:36.760 Is is that you you. 0:31:36.920 --> 0:31:40.120 It's a process for making sure that the record that 0:31:40.200 --> 0:31:43.720 you made in the studio is reproduced everywhere else with 0:31:43.800 --> 0:31:48.680 the intended audio equalization. So the record has to get 0:31:48.680 --> 0:31:53.360 mastered for manufacturing. So it's a it's a whole other 0:31:53.520 --> 0:31:56.920 kind of mixing process. And uh, Frank had been doing 0:31:56.960 --> 0:31:59.520 it for years. He held patents on the mastering pro 0:31:59.720 --> 0:32:02.360 he met. He mastered the first couple of Beatles singles 0:32:02.360 --> 0:32:07.760 for Swan and Decca Records. So I did this whole 0:32:07.800 --> 0:32:11.120 thing with Frank for a while and it just kind of, 0:32:11.360 --> 0:32:14.440 you know, came came to nothing. And now like I'm 0:32:14.480 --> 0:32:19.920 working in Downies as a cook and living in West Philly, 0:32:20.480 --> 0:32:24.920 and I saw an ad in newspaper for record company 0:32:24.960 --> 0:32:28.880 looking for help, and I'm like, okay, it's you know something. 0:32:28.920 --> 0:32:31.480 And I called this guy up and he tells me 0:32:32.240 --> 0:32:37.040 he has a company called Nicetown Records in West Philly 0:32:37.840 --> 0:32:41.480 and his name was Ted Wing and one of his. 0:32:41.520 --> 0:32:42.560 Records was. 0:32:44.120 --> 0:32:45.040 Live and greater for. 0:32:50.120 --> 0:32:53.560 So yeah so Ted, Ted was formerly a prison guard, 0:32:53.920 --> 0:32:58.680 right and Ted helped actually helped Lawrence and Dana start 0:32:58.720 --> 0:33:06.000 pop art so so so so yeah, so you know 0:33:06.960 --> 0:33:11.560 cut the Rich and I you know, also did a 0:33:11.640 --> 0:33:15.880 video for pop art. We did the Rock Sands Rock 0:33:15.920 --> 0:33:16.720 Sands Revenge. 0:33:16.880 --> 0:33:17.719 Yeah yeah. 0:33:17.920 --> 0:33:20.000 We shot it at our house. As a matter of fact, 0:33:21.480 --> 0:33:22.720 yeah ye. 0:33:24.760 --> 0:33:25.000 Record. 0:33:25.120 --> 0:33:26.160 Yeah, I'll tell you this. 0:33:26.560 --> 0:33:30.520 I we shot at our house and it had everybody 0:33:30.760 --> 0:33:33.080 was involved in the actual story about how she got 0:33:33.120 --> 0:33:34.120 a record deal and got. 0:33:34.000 --> 0:33:37.080 Signed was in it. The shooting went till three in 0:33:37.120 --> 0:33:37.560 the morning. 0:33:37.920 --> 0:33:40.920 And I'll never forget coming downstairs in my in my 0:33:40.960 --> 0:33:45.640 living room. Uh, Marley Marr and mister Magic are in 0:33:45.680 --> 0:33:49.480 my living room on the couch under blankets, eating cereal 0:33:49.480 --> 0:33:55.720 and watching cartoons. 0:33:57.000 --> 0:33:59.800 Wait, can you take us a slight sidebar? 0:34:00.680 --> 0:34:03.400 And because whenever I get someone that tells a pop 0:34:03.480 --> 0:34:05.760 art story, usually. 0:34:05.560 --> 0:34:08.600 It's you know, told like and then I met Lawrence coopin. 0:34:10.080 --> 0:34:11.920 No, Dana was the dangerous one. 0:34:12.160 --> 0:34:13.880 Okay, well this is what I want to know. 0:34:15.560 --> 0:34:19.799 Obviously they had the makings to be a contender, yes, 0:34:19.920 --> 0:34:21.759 because they were deaf jam before death cham. 0:34:21.840 --> 0:34:24.440 Yeah, they had salt and Pepper. They had all of 0:34:24.480 --> 0:34:26.160 the for them. 0:34:26.280 --> 0:34:29.920 I'd never tried to get a deal with a major label, right, 0:34:30.000 --> 0:34:34.560 So how did they drop in the most diplomatic way 0:34:34.760 --> 0:34:36.120 you can say, or if you don't give a fuck, 0:34:36.239 --> 0:34:40.359 tells the truth, how do they drop the ball on 0:34:41.120 --> 0:34:46.520 pop art? They had something they had, I'll tell you 0:34:46.560 --> 0:34:51.040 what they had, man. They they they they they cracked 0:34:51.120 --> 0:34:54.200 the code right long before a lot of people. 0:34:54.239 --> 0:34:57.120 And here's what they realized hip hop. 0:34:57.040 --> 0:35:01.840 Music, right, yeah, you know it was a It was 0:35:01.960 --> 0:35:05.560 the purview of the indie labels because for the first 0:35:05.640 --> 0:35:09.560 time since the whole disco era, you could. 0:35:09.360 --> 0:35:11.680 Now be an independent label. 0:35:12.160 --> 0:35:15.360 You could make a record, you could get it out there, 0:35:15.480 --> 0:35:22.640 and because you're using you're facilitating uh, lifestyle marketing initiatives. 0:35:22.080 --> 0:35:24.959 And every stuff that doesn't cost a lot of money, but. 0:35:25.000 --> 0:35:28.399 Yet you have a product they can go out and 0:35:28.800 --> 0:35:30.080 sell big numbers. 0:35:30.239 --> 0:35:30.439 Right. 0:35:31.320 --> 0:35:36.319 And the it was kind of like, uh, you know, 0:35:36.440 --> 0:35:40.279 the majors were seeing this, you know, and they were 0:35:40.640 --> 0:35:46.160 they were coveting this whole thing. And the majors basically, 0:35:46.400 --> 0:35:48.719 and I know no other way to say it, man, 0:35:48.760 --> 0:35:50.560 but they colonized. 0:35:50.239 --> 0:35:51.560 The hip hop industry. 0:35:51.719 --> 0:35:53.680 I'm not talk about hip hop music. But the hip 0:35:53.680 --> 0:35:57.760 hop business they colonized. They colonized it. Yeah, and so 0:35:57.760 --> 0:36:02.040 so Lawrence and Dana figured it out earlier on before 0:36:02.080 --> 0:36:05.440 a lot of people because these companies like Next Plateau 0:36:05.480 --> 0:36:08.279 and Sleeping Bag and everything all went by the wayside 0:36:08.440 --> 0:36:11.640 because they all chose to remain fiercely independent. And I 0:36:11.760 --> 0:36:15.920 get that, but when the popularity of a music becomes 0:36:16.000 --> 0:36:18.640 so big, you know, you're not going to be able 0:36:18.680 --> 0:36:22.800 to deliver the manufacturing and distribution. So they figured it 0:36:22.840 --> 0:36:24.759 out that you had to get with a major. And 0:36:24.800 --> 0:36:27.440 so that's when they did the deal with Jive, right, 0:36:28.080 --> 0:36:32.719 And I watched that and I said to Joe, I said, 0:36:32.760 --> 0:36:35.160 that's that's where we need to be. That's that's what 0:36:35.200 --> 0:36:36.120 we need to do. 0:36:36.760 --> 0:36:42.200 So but they had such a hefty roster, lost them all. 0:36:42.239 --> 0:36:45.640 They had Jazzy Jeff Prince, they had Salt and Pepper, 0:36:45.719 --> 0:36:47.120 they had bizz. 0:36:46.840 --> 0:36:51.600 Ye, John tay Uh, the hill Top Hustlers. 0:36:51.440 --> 0:36:55.840 Stead they had them all and lost them all. Like 0:36:56.600 --> 0:36:57.239 were they just. 0:36:58.719 --> 0:36:59.279 Businessmen? 0:36:59.600 --> 0:36:59.799 Yeah? 0:36:59.840 --> 0:37:04.040 I think it's you know, the the for for what 0:37:04.160 --> 0:37:09.319 it's worth there this business. You know, let's face it, 0:37:09.360 --> 0:37:12.239 there there is no no prerequisite to get in the 0:37:12.280 --> 0:37:12.920 record business. 0:37:13.080 --> 0:37:14.800 You don't you don't need. 0:37:14.600 --> 0:37:16.960 A college degree, you don't need a resume, you don't 0:37:16.960 --> 0:37:21.920 need nothing. And as a result of that, and because. 0:37:21.480 --> 0:37:26.680 Of the the proliferation of all these visuals showing showing 0:37:26.840 --> 0:37:31.080 wealth and showing you know, status and everything like that, 0:37:31.480 --> 0:37:34.840 it attracts a lot of people, a lot of people 0:37:35.239 --> 0:37:37.680 who who feel like, oh, this is a business I 0:37:37.680 --> 0:37:38.320 could walk. 0:37:38.120 --> 0:37:39.720 In and become a millionaire overnight. 0:37:39.960 --> 0:37:40.280 Right. 0:37:40.960 --> 0:37:44.680 And they had they I always say, there were great 0:37:44.800 --> 0:37:47.719 an r guys, and they had the musical chops, but 0:37:48.000 --> 0:37:51.440 I think they they just lacked a lot. 0:37:51.280 --> 0:37:53.400 In the on the side. 0:37:53.120 --> 0:37:54.080 Of a business. 0:37:54.239 --> 0:37:55.520 Yeah, and just. 0:37:56.200 --> 0:38:04.040 Wow, man, I don't know, I want to do with 0:38:04.200 --> 0:38:08.160 bulletproof still around, I'm like they are. 0:38:08.239 --> 0:38:10.600 Because I still followed. 0:38:10.920 --> 0:38:14.800 Uh well, you know the youngster guys or they're ulsters 0:38:14.880 --> 0:38:20.600 now one of them is still working with Like, I 0:38:20.640 --> 0:38:21.000 don't know. 0:38:20.960 --> 0:38:22.720 How are you talking about the kids? 0:38:23.200 --> 0:38:26.040 Yeah, like one of them in her staff. 0:38:26.080 --> 0:38:28.040 But I'll tell you this. I'll tell you this. 0:38:29.080 --> 0:38:34.960 Lawrence and Dana were very they have very definitive ideas, 0:38:35.120 --> 0:38:35.799 you know what I mean. 0:38:36.040 --> 0:38:37.960 And that's what that's to me. 0:38:38.600 --> 0:38:42.719 It's like, you know, they they again they cracked the 0:38:42.760 --> 0:38:45.040 code they figured it out, because I'll tell you when 0:38:45.080 --> 0:38:47.600 they did the deal with Jive, and I'll never forget 0:38:47.600 --> 0:38:50.120 they came in the studio with their with their jackets 0:38:50.200 --> 0:38:53.080 at r c A and the hats and everything, and 0:38:53.120 --> 0:38:55.800 I'm like, I was kind of like, at first. 0:38:55.640 --> 0:38:58.000 I was like, oh man, they they sold out. They 0:38:58.000 --> 0:38:59.879 went with Jive and everything, you know. 0:39:00.480 --> 0:39:03.120 And then and then but then to hear him talk 0:39:03.160 --> 0:39:06.680 about it, it was like it was like the the 0:39:07.480 --> 0:39:10.000 you know, it's like, well, that's if you're unless it's network. 0:39:10.120 --> 0:39:12.959 Now, if you're not a major, you're gonna is what. 0:39:12.880 --> 0:39:15.439 You're gonna think. Yeah, okay, So all. 0:39:15.400 --> 0:39:17.520 Right, so we're at the Bill Cosby record, right right. 0:39:17.600 --> 0:39:21.080 So so Ted was a prison guard at great effort, 0:39:21.680 --> 0:39:27.520 and he was the director of the Prisoner's Activities Fund. 0:39:27.560 --> 0:39:30.160 And so I think Bill Cosby, I think the story 0:39:30.320 --> 0:39:34.239 was to get his PhD or is his thesis. I mean, 0:39:34.760 --> 0:39:37.080 for whatever you can say about the man, he he 0:39:37.680 --> 0:39:40.720 you know, this is the guy who who was shooting 0:39:40.800 --> 0:39:45.000 I spy right in the sixties and then flying to 0:39:45.080 --> 0:39:49.600 do casinos to do shows and getting his uh he 0:39:49.680 --> 0:39:52.640 constantly he continues his education all throughout the whole thing 0:39:52.760 --> 0:39:56.839 by doing these projects. So he told the prison you 0:39:56.920 --> 0:40:00.360 can have whatever how you want to exploit this state up. 0:40:00.440 --> 0:40:03.320 You can have it as long as the money benefits 0:40:03.320 --> 0:40:07.759 the prisoners activities fund. So so Ted ends up with 0:40:07.800 --> 0:40:11.160 this record and you know, he doesn't have any real 0:40:11.280 --> 0:40:12.200 artwork or anything. 0:40:12.280 --> 0:40:14.040 It's uh, he had some rendering done. 0:40:14.080 --> 0:40:16.240 It was just really headed boys. 0:40:16.320 --> 0:40:24.239 Yeah, so so he he. I walk from forty eighth 0:40:24.320 --> 0:40:28.080 in hazel to fifty second in Parkside looking for the 0:40:28.120 --> 0:40:29.760 address of this record company. 0:40:30.200 --> 0:40:30.640 My house. 0:40:30.840 --> 0:40:36.680 Yeah, so there's this daycare center right. Ted's mother answers 0:40:36.719 --> 0:40:40.839 the door. She's like very uninviting. She makes me wait 0:40:40.880 --> 0:40:43.080 for Ted. I have to sit in this chair that's 0:40:43.160 --> 0:40:45.279 like a foot high for little kids. And I'm sitting 0:40:45.320 --> 0:40:48.120 there for twenty minutes, like thinking this might not be 0:40:48.200 --> 0:40:51.160 the dream job I was thinking it is. Ted shows up, 0:40:51.520 --> 0:40:54.520 takes me up to the third floor of this building 0:40:55.200 --> 0:40:58.799 in a room with like crumbling plaster. The windows are 0:40:58.880 --> 0:41:01.319 nailed shut, and there's a desk and a chair and 0:41:01.360 --> 0:41:05.239 a phone, and he shows me the billboard charts and 0:41:05.360 --> 0:41:08.200 how to call these retailers and get the record charted. 0:41:08.640 --> 0:41:10.799 And he paid me, you know, a couple hundred bucks 0:41:10.840 --> 0:41:14.600 a week, and so I was working the Bill Cosby 0:41:14.680 --> 0:41:19.239 record and at the time Bill Cosby from The Cosby 0:41:19.320 --> 0:41:25.040 Show had done a jazz compilation, right, so there were 0:41:25.080 --> 0:41:29.320 two Bill Cosby's records out, and I definitely took advantage 0:41:29.360 --> 0:41:30.160 of the confusions. 0:41:31.680 --> 0:41:35.480 Yeah, I did. And I was calling retailers and and 0:41:35.560 --> 0:41:40.120 doing that. And so so. 0:41:40.600 --> 0:41:43.280 We had a session. Ted signed a bunch of artists. 0:41:43.320 --> 0:41:45.800 I can't even remember their names, except for Bunny Siglar. 0:41:46.040 --> 0:41:49.280 We did a Bunny Siga record that was pretty cool. 0:41:49.640 --> 0:41:52.880 But we we had a session booked at studio for 0:41:53.120 --> 0:41:55.879 one night and I'd only been to studio for once 0:41:55.920 --> 0:41:59.120 because I was involved in the WDAS Black History Month 0:41:59.239 --> 0:42:04.359 rap compilation that with Eddie d and everything. And so 0:42:05.200 --> 0:42:07.480 we go to the session and studio for and our 0:42:07.600 --> 0:42:10.400 engineers Joe Nicholo, and I'd never met Joe, you know, 0:42:11.080 --> 0:42:12.680 and we're in the session. 0:42:12.800 --> 0:42:13.879 We're starting now. 0:42:14.000 --> 0:42:19.160 Ted was a pretty boisterous guy in that he was 0:42:19.200 --> 0:42:20.279 always bragging him out. 0:42:20.400 --> 0:42:23.680 Yeah, I got this deal going on with MCA and. 0:42:23.560 --> 0:42:25.960 Doing this and doing that and everything, and he's doing 0:42:25.960 --> 0:42:29.759 this in the studio and and I guess at one 0:42:29.800 --> 0:42:32.759 point I kind of rolled my eyes, like out of 0:42:33.080 --> 0:42:35.799 you know, and Joe caught it right right. So when 0:42:36.000 --> 0:42:39.839 Ted walks out of the studio, Joe's like, how did 0:42:39.880 --> 0:42:41.319 you end up working for this guy? 0:42:41.360 --> 0:42:43.680 And he said, well, you know, it's not my dream job, 0:42:43.680 --> 0:42:45.160 but you know, I want to start a record label. 0:42:45.200 --> 0:42:46.480 And Joe goes like, yeah, well so do I. 0:42:46.760 --> 0:42:48.840 You know, so here's my number. You know we should 0:42:48.920 --> 0:42:52.120 get up at some point. Nice So that happened, right. 0:42:52.840 --> 0:42:58.879 So back at nice Town Records in West Philly, I 0:42:58.920 --> 0:43:01.880 was in Ted's all office talking about something and I 0:43:01.960 --> 0:43:06.120 see these these records, the yellow labels, and I pick 0:43:06.160 --> 0:43:11.520 it up and the song is called Gangster Boogie by 0:43:11.640 --> 0:43:14.680 Schoolide and it was on a record label called A 0:43:14.840 --> 0:43:16.200 Place to Be Records. 0:43:16.480 --> 0:43:18.120 Now, I had known. 0:43:17.960 --> 0:43:21.719 About Schoolie for a long time, right, and I know 0:43:21.880 --> 0:43:24.319 that you know you remember Bobby Dance and the wind 0:43:24.480 --> 0:43:28.720 Ball Oh yeah, okay, so fruit of Ism, security and 0:43:28.800 --> 0:43:33.359 all that good stuff. Uh. I knew about his whole thing, 0:43:33.760 --> 0:43:38.799 right yeah. And so I said to Ted, I said, so, what, like, 0:43:38.880 --> 0:43:41.840 what's going on with these? He goes, oh, yeah, school 0:43:41.880 --> 0:43:44.200 He came to me and he wanted, you know, me 0:43:44.320 --> 0:43:46.200 to do this and that for him. I told him 0:43:46.200 --> 0:43:52.080 I wasn't interested, and I'm like, what, like, let's playlet 0:43:52.920 --> 0:43:55.920 Bill Cosby record and Schoolly D comes in, You're not interested? 0:43:56.400 --> 0:44:02.040 So I filched school number out of Ted's Rolodex and 0:44:03.640 --> 0:44:05.880 I call him up and I said, look, you know, 0:44:05.960 --> 0:44:08.600 my name is Chris Schwartz, and uh, I think I 0:44:08.680 --> 0:44:14.799 can help you. And you know, I know distribution and everything. 0:44:15.000 --> 0:44:17.520 I think you should start your own label and all 0:44:17.560 --> 0:44:18.080 this stuff. 0:44:18.160 --> 0:44:19.879 And he goes, yeah, that sounds good man. 0:44:19.920 --> 0:44:20.080 You know. 0:44:20.200 --> 0:44:21.399 Come on, and where do you live? 0:44:21.480 --> 0:44:26.040 And he lives like like a couple of blocks bubb 0:44:26.080 --> 0:44:29.319 the daycare center. So we set up a. 0:44:29.320 --> 0:44:32.880 Time and I'll never forget this man. I go to 0:44:32.920 --> 0:44:35.799 his house. I step up on the porch. I knock 0:44:35.880 --> 0:44:40.040 on the door. He answers the door, and he's wearing 0:44:40.040 --> 0:44:43.880 a towel and he sees me on his porch. He 0:44:43.960 --> 0:44:46.440 sees me on his porch and then he kind of 0:44:46.440 --> 0:44:48.319 looks around to see who's seeing me. 0:44:48.480 --> 0:44:51.839 On his porch, right, you know, and he goes, yeah, man, 0:44:51.880 --> 0:44:54.239 I'm taking a shower and he shuts the door and 0:44:54.280 --> 0:44:56.799 I'm standing there like like, you. 0:44:56.760 --> 0:44:58.640 Know what what just happened? 0:44:58.719 --> 0:44:59.160 Right? 0:44:59.680 --> 0:45:02.719 So I call him up later on he goes, oh, 0:45:02.760 --> 0:45:05.360 you need to talk to my lawyer, Warren Hamilton. And 0:45:05.440 --> 0:45:07.560 before I could ask for Warren's number, he hangs up 0:45:07.960 --> 0:45:11.719 and I look up Warren. I met with Warren. Eventually 0:45:12.280 --> 0:45:16.160 we met all of us, three of us together. I said, look, 0:45:16.640 --> 0:45:20.000 I'm gonna, I'm gonna we're gonna shoot some videos. Uh, 0:45:20.000 --> 0:45:22.640 We're gonna do this whole thing. I'm gonna get your record, 0:45:22.880 --> 0:45:26.480 you know, distributed. Uh, and I'm gonna sit up distribution 0:45:27.440 --> 0:45:30.759 and uh. And that's how I started working with him. 0:45:32.160 --> 0:45:40.080 And so at the this is at the beginning of PSK. Yeah, yeah, 0:45:40.280 --> 0:45:42.560 so how did you he recorded? 0:45:42.600 --> 0:45:45.879 He just recorded PSK and Gucci Time, but he had 0:45:45.920 --> 0:45:49.080 not done the album yet, Okay, And we recorded the 0:45:49.160 --> 0:45:51.840 album this is a crazy thing. We recorded in Center 0:45:51.920 --> 0:45:55.040 City at a little eight trax studio that recorded the 0:45:55.040 --> 0:45:57.280 Philadelphia Orchestra and there. 0:45:57.160 --> 0:46:00.919 Was no no. 0:45:59.560 --> 0:46:02.759 No really equipment, and so we they had one of 0:46:02.800 --> 0:46:05.920 the old big plate reverbs, right like you know. 0:46:05.840 --> 0:46:11.000 What I'm talking about. Yeah, and it was just uh. 0:46:10.880 --> 0:46:14.760 We should also shout out, all right, spawn, what's Jeff's 0:46:14.760 --> 0:46:15.600 true last name? 0:46:15.640 --> 0:46:16.800 Because I keep on saying. 0:46:16.680 --> 0:46:19.920 Jeff Cheese state, No, Jeff Chestick, Jeff, yes, Jeff Why 0:46:20.200 --> 0:46:20.760 Are you ready? 0:46:20.800 --> 0:46:23.320 Are you ready about you want to hear Jeff Chesstick 0:46:23.360 --> 0:46:23.919 trivia fact? 0:46:24.000 --> 0:46:24.080 Yes? 0:46:24.239 --> 0:46:28.640 Hit me. Him and I went to junior high together. Really, 0:46:29.160 --> 0:46:34.879 I know that I knew Jeff Chestick since nineteen seventy two, 0:46:35.040 --> 0:46:35.719 seventy three. 0:46:36.320 --> 0:46:36.640 Jeff. 0:46:36.760 --> 0:46:41.279 Yeah, when Jeff used to mix here, I forgot what 0:46:41.360 --> 0:46:45.840 project I was working on, but he told me the 0:46:46.000 --> 0:46:48.720 very first story of and he never gave the title. 0:46:49.320 --> 0:46:51.160 Yeah, it was so you know, it's like I want 0:46:51.160 --> 0:46:52.400 more reverb, more reverb. 0:46:53.520 --> 0:46:56.480 And when he did this, I was like, yeah, this 0:46:56.560 --> 0:46:58.000 is just like in PSK. 0:46:58.160 --> 0:46:59.800 He's like, well, yeah, mixed that. 0:47:00.440 --> 0:47:03.120 And I know you're probably like what, You're like, what? Yeah? 0:47:03.239 --> 0:47:03.919 Can I tell you? 0:47:04.000 --> 0:47:07.919 Jeff Jessick we were in a V A V club together, right, 0:47:08.040 --> 0:47:11.279 and we did these av projects, right, And this is 0:47:11.320 --> 0:47:15.480 in seventh grade. He did this thing where, you know, 0:47:15.520 --> 0:47:19.600 because you have audio, you have video equipment, and he 0:47:19.719 --> 0:47:22.560 did this thing where it was an elevator going up 0:47:22.560 --> 0:47:25.000 in a store and opening up in the different. 0:47:24.640 --> 0:47:27.320 Departments and everything. It was really it was clever. 0:47:27.560 --> 0:47:29.279 You know, in the seventh grade, I thought the guy 0:47:29.360 --> 0:47:37.440 had real talent, you know, chops so so so basically 0:47:38.520 --> 0:47:43.759 we're now doing stuff and I was going through it 0:47:43.800 --> 0:47:46.600 was a lot of schooly up till then, have been 0:47:46.640 --> 0:47:52.840 doing primarily West Philly, North Philly hip hop shows and everything. 0:47:53.760 --> 0:47:58.840 And I started sending out his record to like remember 0:47:59.200 --> 0:48:04.680 Metro record well, Martin keone, Yes, I do. Next thing, 0:48:04.719 --> 0:48:09.800 you know, I'm getting phone calls like these clubs, white 0:48:09.800 --> 0:48:15.399 clubs right, loving schooly d right, And I'm sending out 0:48:15.440 --> 0:48:19.759 the record to like all these record all these one 0:48:19.800 --> 0:48:22.240 stops and independent distributors. 0:48:23.200 --> 0:48:24.840 And like City Hall. 0:48:24.800 --> 0:48:33.320 Records in San Francisco, West Coast Record Distributors, Schwartz Brothers 0:48:33.400 --> 0:48:38.239 Done in Baltimore, Maryland, Encore Distributors Up and Up in Brooklyn. 0:48:38.880 --> 0:48:42.640 And the thing about in the independent record distribution business 0:48:42.640 --> 0:48:45.200 at the time is that it's very hard to get paid. 0:48:45.960 --> 0:48:50.160 And the reason they're very difficult in paying you is 0:48:50.200 --> 0:48:55.160 because if you're a new independent label and you have 0:48:55.200 --> 0:48:57.960 a record that goes out there and sells, that's all 0:48:58.000 --> 0:49:01.080 fine and well, but what they don't want to do 0:49:01.360 --> 0:49:04.800 is pay you. And then when they get hit turns, 0:49:04.840 --> 0:49:07.560 they go to call up and your phone's disconnected, so 0:49:07.719 --> 0:49:09.840 you have to you have to have like and I 0:49:09.920 --> 0:49:12.520 used to go up. I remember driving up to Encore 0:49:12.600 --> 0:49:14.560 distributors in the. 0:49:14.480 --> 0:49:15.799 Car and the car. 0:49:15.840 --> 0:49:19.160 I'd have a car stacked with records in the back 0:49:19.560 --> 0:49:21.880 and in the trunk, and I'd sleep in the parking 0:49:21.880 --> 0:49:25.000 lot overnight, you know, wait for these guys to get it, 0:49:25.239 --> 0:49:26.920 get it, to get a check, and to give them 0:49:26.920 --> 0:49:29.319 the records. So at one point I got I set 0:49:29.360 --> 0:49:31.040 it up to where I was sending out the singles 0:49:31.040 --> 0:49:34.480 and they're paying half cod. So the pressing plant and 0:49:35.000 --> 0:49:38.080 I had a whole thing set up. And then uh, 0:49:38.200 --> 0:49:42.479 these kids would call in different areas and so because 0:49:42.480 --> 0:49:46.399 we had no radio airplay, so I started getting these 0:49:46.480 --> 0:49:50.919 kids to take the records to like barbershops, pool halls, retailers. 0:49:50.960 --> 0:49:54.120 Because it was just like on a Saturday, where do 0:49:54.160 --> 0:49:56.000 you go to find new music? You go to the 0:49:56.040 --> 0:49:58.200 record store, beat the market store. 0:49:58.760 --> 0:50:01.719 Yeah, so there is a whole thing where you could 0:50:01.760 --> 0:50:04.800 release a twelve inch right on a Friday. 0:50:05.480 --> 0:50:06.640 You you give it. 0:50:06.560 --> 0:50:09.000 To the clubs, you give it to the mix show. 0:50:09.680 --> 0:50:12.360 Saturdays you get to guys playing in the store. And 0:50:12.480 --> 0:50:14.719 Saturdays there again it's in the mix show and in 0:50:14.760 --> 0:50:16.720 the clubs. By Monday, you knew. 0:50:16.600 --> 0:50:19.080 If you had something right. It was that fast. 0:50:19.239 --> 0:50:22.520 That was the excitement of putting out putting out records. 0:50:22.560 --> 0:50:24.839 So they're calling you saying like I need five more. 0:50:25.040 --> 0:50:27.200 Yeah and so and so. 0:50:27.640 --> 0:50:32.120 Uh we we ran into a little schism with the 0:50:32.560 --> 0:50:36.359 sound makers because I was at Downtown Records and up 0:50:36.360 --> 0:50:39.880 in New York City one day and I saw that 0:50:39.920 --> 0:50:44.800 they had our PSK Gucci Time record and it's our label. 0:50:44.840 --> 0:50:49.160 Everything's the same except it says distribute through Warlock Records. 0:50:49.680 --> 0:50:54.440 And I thought, wow, this is the search. Yeah, Warlock Records. 0:50:54.520 --> 0:50:57.520 That's that's that's you know, Roulette, Morris Levy and Son 0:50:57.560 --> 0:51:02.920 Adam Lee or so. So I didn't call Warlock, but 0:51:03.320 --> 0:51:06.160 I'll never forget this man. I went to the counter 0:51:06.560 --> 0:51:09.600 and there was this guy who's like literally right out 0:51:09.640 --> 0:51:14.799 of Central Casting for for you know, big guys. 0:51:15.320 --> 0:51:17.520 Yeah Agad. I was about to say, were you your 0:51:17.600 --> 0:51:18.280 own collector? 0:51:18.800 --> 0:51:22.160 Big thick glasses and a cigar, you know, And he's 0:51:22.160 --> 0:51:24.399 sitting behind the count and he goes, yeah, at least 0:51:24.440 --> 0:51:27.359 Warlock can get the records pressed. 0:51:27.080 --> 0:51:30.680 Up and delivered when we need them, right, So what 0:51:30.760 --> 0:51:31.440 you mean collector? 0:51:31.600 --> 0:51:35.640 Like like you were your own distributed like you Yeah? 0:51:35.760 --> 0:51:38.080 I did. Yeah I was back in those days though, 0:51:38.200 --> 0:51:41.600 didn't you need some muscle. Oh no, no, no, no, no. 0:51:41.680 --> 0:51:44.440 The thing is took In terms of collecting, we had 0:51:44.440 --> 0:51:46.920 a we had a company set up. It was Schoey Records, 0:51:46.920 --> 0:51:49.399 and no I would send them to you know, distribuers, 0:51:49.480 --> 0:51:53.480 but we also operated kind of as our own one stop. 0:51:53.520 --> 0:51:54.319 Because here's the thing. 0:51:54.600 --> 0:51:58.800 Schooly on his own had started out, you know, Chino 0:51:58.880 --> 0:52:02.360 at Funko Mart given them records and everything. And that 0:52:02.480 --> 0:52:04.600 became a little bit issue issue because when I hooked 0:52:04.680 --> 0:52:09.120 us up with Universal, you know, uh, you know, they 0:52:09.400 --> 0:52:12.719 they they fronted us the money to press records and 0:52:12.760 --> 0:52:16.400 then they go to solicit Funko Mart and these plays 0:52:17.000 --> 0:52:17.399 and there. 0:52:17.480 --> 0:52:19.640 Yeah, that that was school. He was always doing ship 0:52:19.760 --> 0:52:20.120 like that. 0:52:20.400 --> 0:52:29.799 But so so so. 0:52:32.120 --> 0:52:35.439 We uh you know, but a lot of a lot 0:52:35.480 --> 0:52:36.279 of really. 0:52:37.120 --> 0:52:41.960 Crazy things happened, and and then it's it was amazing 0:52:42.080 --> 0:52:46.120 that that the record just suddenly took on this whole momentum, 0:52:46.280 --> 0:52:49.359 you know, and suddenly the orders started happening, you know. 0:52:49.480 --> 0:52:52.560 And it was and we you know the album. 0:52:52.800 --> 0:52:55.440 Were you in a place where like the demand was 0:52:55.520 --> 0:52:59.719 sort of demand demand what you could supply. 0:53:00.320 --> 0:53:09.680 Yeah, because because I every time I needed Schooy. 0:53:08.640 --> 0:53:11.320 To write a check to press up records. 0:53:12.160 --> 0:53:16.600 If I needed, you know, six hundred and forty two dollars, 0:53:17.719 --> 0:53:21.360 he'd give me two hundred and forty two dollars. 0:53:21.440 --> 0:53:21.640 You know. 0:53:21.840 --> 0:53:23.880 It was just it was just yeah, it was just 0:53:23.960 --> 0:53:28.000 say everything constantly a day late and a dollar short, 0:53:28.239 --> 0:53:31.080 you know, day late and a dollar short. I booked 0:53:31.120 --> 0:53:34.480 him in a bunch of rock clubs, and you know, 0:53:35.880 --> 0:53:39.080 in the in the early days of hip hop, hip 0:53:39.120 --> 0:53:42.400 hop promoters for the most part were guys that that 0:53:43.080 --> 0:53:44.760 didn't see doing one. 0:53:44.640 --> 0:53:47.520 Off hip hop shows. It's like career building blocks. It 0:53:47.560 --> 0:53:49.080 was more of a score for them. 0:53:49.640 --> 0:53:55.160 So artists get jacked all the time. And because of this, 0:53:56.040 --> 0:54:01.080 you know, Schoolly always demanded his money up front before 0:54:01.080 --> 0:54:03.480 he went on stage. And I get that, right, But 0:54:03.640 --> 0:54:07.880 when you're doing a rock club, right, that's a an 0:54:08.040 --> 0:54:12.400 established venue that you know that deals with booking agents 0:54:12.440 --> 0:54:13.600 and everything like that. 0:54:14.239 --> 0:54:14.680 They don't. 0:54:14.800 --> 0:54:17.239 They don't stiff bands because if they did, they'd be 0:54:17.320 --> 0:54:19.759 Persona and Grada. He'd never be able to book. But 0:54:19.960 --> 0:54:23.080 you know, we would do these shows and he'd won 0:54:23.160 --> 0:54:25.239 his money up front, and then the idea of these 0:54:25.280 --> 0:54:27.719 club managers and he'd have to count the money out 0:54:27.719 --> 0:54:30.160 of the receipts and everything. And then the next thing, 0:54:30.200 --> 0:54:33.480 you know, he gets on stage and what are hip 0:54:33.520 --> 0:54:36.480 hop artist shows in the eighties? Do they do their 0:54:36.680 --> 0:54:42.000 couple songs? Then they roll and you got these kids 0:54:42.040 --> 0:54:44.399 that drove from Delaware. 0:54:43.920 --> 0:54:48.680 And they're like, yeah, so that was that was a 0:54:48.719 --> 0:54:49.800 whole mess. 0:54:49.840 --> 0:54:55.840 And you know, but anyhow, so I called it Joe. 0:54:55.960 --> 0:54:58.320 I had that business card from Studio four. 0:54:58.800 --> 0:55:02.280 And we, uh, we. 0:55:02.120 --> 0:55:06.239 Got together, decided let's start this record label. And I 0:55:06.400 --> 0:55:11.719 was managing Schooly and my first office, you know the 0:55:11.880 --> 0:55:14.400 you know the building, you know the my first office 0:55:14.440 --> 0:55:17.279 was when you get down into that basement floor when 0:55:17.320 --> 0:55:20.120 you come through the door the Studio four built, right, 0:55:20.480 --> 0:55:23.440 they built because Larry. They built a b room for 0:55:23.520 --> 0:55:26.600 Larry to put Larry gold. But it's in clavier and there, well, 0:55:26.640 --> 0:55:31.080 there was a vestibule. There was a vestibule between that 0:55:31.080 --> 0:55:33.760 that room and the hallway right. 0:55:33.960 --> 0:55:35.000 That was my office. 0:55:35.600 --> 0:55:39.480 It was like four feet wide and uh, my desk 0:55:39.640 --> 0:55:43.080 was made of plywood covered with red vinyl because it 0:55:43.120 --> 0:55:45.960 was the original reception just for the studio, right, and 0:55:46.040 --> 0:55:48.719 I had a little lamp and Joe bought in like 0:55:48.760 --> 0:55:52.719 a pink princess phone from home, and that was that was. 0:55:52.680 --> 0:55:54.840 The phone and and that's. 0:55:54.640 --> 0:55:57.960 Where that's where we that's where the actual business started. 0:55:58.440 --> 0:56:01.280 And then we moved into that of the other room, 0:56:01.440 --> 0:56:01.959 which is. 0:56:02.160 --> 0:56:05.239 The bigger room that I know. Okay, wow, so. 0:56:05.239 --> 0:56:07.440 But no, yeah, and then we moved down the hall 0:56:07.680 --> 0:56:11.480 later on took over that whole area down the hall too. 0:56:12.480 --> 0:56:12.879 I missed. 0:56:13.680 --> 0:56:15.280 Yeah, you know what I gotta. 0:56:15.080 --> 0:56:20.840 Tell you, man, I Uh, it's funny because got years later. 0:56:21.640 --> 0:56:24.120 You know, you get you go thro these peers where 0:56:24.120 --> 0:56:26.640 you have gold platinum records every year and it's just 0:56:26.800 --> 0:56:32.000 never ending. But I look back on those days and 0:56:32.040 --> 0:56:35.600 I was like, I was always broke, but I just 0:56:35.680 --> 0:56:37.480 had so much fun, you know. 0:56:37.960 --> 0:56:38.879 The time of your life. 0:56:39.080 --> 0:56:44.759 Yeah. 0:56:44.800 --> 0:56:50.120 So when was rough House as we know it officially 0:56:50.120 --> 0:56:50.920 officially born? 0:56:54.840 --> 0:56:57.719 We we we first, first we started. 0:56:57.880 --> 0:57:02.040 We had this really stupid in ambiguous name, Pyramid Productions. 0:57:02.120 --> 0:57:05.240 I don't know how that came about, but that lasted 0:57:05.280 --> 0:57:09.560 for like about a couple months, and Roughhouse, I have 0:57:09.800 --> 0:57:12.000 to say, was probably born. 0:57:14.120 --> 0:57:17.280 I want to say eighty six, maybe. 0:57:17.720 --> 0:57:21.040 Eighty six, I don't, I know it's in my book 0:57:21.040 --> 0:57:23.560 because I had to put together a bunch of events 0:57:23.640 --> 0:57:26.600 to you know, to figure out when it happened, but 0:57:26.680 --> 0:57:31.000 I know where it happened. We were in Arthur Man's office, 0:57:31.120 --> 0:57:35.120 our attorney who later went on to found raich ODIs, 0:57:35.280 --> 0:57:38.479 the first CD label and the history of music, which 0:57:38.600 --> 0:57:44.919 was an amazing thing. And there was a cassette by 0:57:45.240 --> 0:57:49.919 some rock band called rough House roug h and Joe said, 0:57:49.960 --> 0:57:52.400 you know, that'd be a great name for a record. 0:57:52.120 --> 0:57:54.360 Label, and I was thinking, yeah, it's like, you know, 0:57:54.400 --> 0:57:54.680 and I. 0:57:54.640 --> 0:57:58.280 Had a pretty rough house growing up, you know, my 0:57:58.400 --> 0:58:01.560 childhood and everything. Uh, but we should change it to 0:58:01.600 --> 0:58:05.360 our U F F to keep it you know, yeah, keep. 0:58:05.240 --> 0:58:08.960 It rough And and that was really the birth of 0:58:09.000 --> 0:58:09.400 the label. 0:58:09.480 --> 0:58:13.480 Our first artist was a was an artist named uh 0:58:13.760 --> 0:58:19.160 Mac Money uh me and Mack Evans her. She she 0:58:19.160 --> 0:58:23.160 she was a Philly battle rapper who did a answer 0:58:23.280 --> 0:58:26.880 record to PSK. Really yeah it was actually it was 0:58:26.960 --> 0:58:33.920 really good, and so we we signed her. And about 0:58:34.000 --> 0:58:35.560 there was a group called the Dead Milkman. 0:58:35.600 --> 0:58:37.200 Do you remember the Dead Milkman rock group? 0:58:37.280 --> 0:58:37.840 Yeah? 0:58:37.960 --> 0:58:41.480 Uh, well their managers. They were distributed by a company 0:58:41.520 --> 0:58:42.960 on the West Coast called Enigma. 0:58:43.360 --> 0:58:44.160 Enigma was a. 0:58:45.480 --> 0:58:54.240 Was uh a company that did really obscure alternative like 0:58:54.400 --> 0:58:57.920 Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds right here. Let me 0:58:57.960 --> 0:59:00.760 tell you how obscure this music was. I was living 0:59:00.800 --> 0:59:06.400 on Gerard Avenue and uh I had body, a Jaguar and. 0:59:07.960 --> 0:59:08.720 X J six. 0:59:09.240 --> 0:59:12.880 Somebody broke into my car one night, and when we 0:59:12.920 --> 0:59:16.640 went out to Enigma, they gave us all these records 0:59:16.400 --> 0:59:20.800 to bring home, right, and so I had all these 0:59:21.640 --> 0:59:25.480 all these uh cassettes of all these different artists, these 0:59:25.560 --> 0:59:28.600 rock artists. Somebody broke into my car, went in the 0:59:28.640 --> 0:59:35.240 glove compartment and they took everything excepted anything that was 0:59:35.280 --> 0:59:41.120 released on Enigma. Whoever, whoever the car thief was, he 0:59:41.280 --> 0:59:46.080 basically took his time decided, deciding, deciding which, which which 0:59:46.120 --> 0:59:46.880 records he wanted. 0:59:47.480 --> 0:59:51.200 Steve, remember that happened to us. Yeah, someone broke into 0:59:51.200 --> 0:59:52.040 my car and. 0:59:52.520 --> 0:59:58.040 Left the roots albums. No they they they I had. 0:59:58.120 --> 1:00:01.560 Uh Johnny I just seen walked the line. So I 1:00:01.600 --> 1:00:03.680 was like, all right, let me buy everything, Johnny Cash. 1:00:03.800 --> 1:00:06.760 I went and brought the Johnny Cash box set all 1:00:06.800 --> 1:00:07.720 this stuff, and. 1:00:07.680 --> 1:00:10.360 Then I like brought Orange Johnson. 1:00:10.720 --> 1:00:14.760 Joni Mitchell's like working stuff, and they like left everything 1:00:14.800 --> 1:00:18.720 and I pair Converse sneakers and my door was open. 1:00:18.760 --> 1:00:21.360 I got there and I was like, wait, someone broke 1:00:21.400 --> 1:00:24.400 in my car. But I was like, why didn't they 1:00:24.480 --> 1:00:26.880 take anything? And Steve looked and he's like, this is 1:00:26.920 --> 1:00:32.520 why they didn't want another. Oh see, you guys started 1:00:32.520 --> 1:00:34.720 in eighty six. I remember you guys went through like 1:00:34.760 --> 1:00:37.560 a couple of logos. So that's how I know the 1:00:37.560 --> 1:00:45.960 progression of the label. I first heard of you guys, 1:00:47.240 --> 1:00:47.840 I guess through. 1:00:48.040 --> 1:00:52.680 Uh was Larry your first album signing. 1:00:52.480 --> 1:00:53.360 Or Larry Larr? 1:00:53.600 --> 1:00:53.840 Yeah? 1:00:54.160 --> 1:01:02.440 Uh no, we had a group called Blackmail. Larry Larr 1:01:02.760 --> 1:01:04.680 was one of the first. I don't know if he 1:01:04.800 --> 1:01:10.200 was absolutely the first, okay, but it's funny because he 1:01:10.320 --> 1:01:14.400 was definitely before Tim Dog. 1:01:14.600 --> 1:01:15.360 I was waiting. 1:01:15.400 --> 1:01:22.560 I was just waiting, Yeah Dog, is he all right? 1:01:22.640 --> 1:01:22.960 All right? 1:01:23.320 --> 1:01:24.000 What do you guess? 1:01:24.040 --> 1:01:24.520 Is okay? 1:01:24.640 --> 1:01:27.000 Where's he at? Where's Tim Dog? I know one of 1:01:27.040 --> 1:01:28.000 the joints he finessed. 1:01:28.280 --> 1:01:30.560 So you don't think you don't think he's dead. Oh, 1:01:30.560 --> 1:01:31.560 I don't think he's dead at all. 1:01:32.680 --> 1:01:37.080 You think no, I think I think he's dead. Man. Now, 1:01:37.200 --> 1:01:38.560 I hope I get I. 1:01:42.080 --> 1:01:44.880 Just said my book, I said in Memoriam, you know, 1:01:45.040 --> 1:01:46.640 to himself, I'm pretty sure. 1:01:46.680 --> 1:01:48.600 I'm pretty sure he passed away. Because he was sick. 1:01:49.080 --> 1:01:52.440 Oh yeah, okay, yeah, okay, So do you all know 1:01:52.480 --> 1:01:55.000 the scandal? Yes, Tim Dog? 1:01:55.120 --> 1:01:59.960 Yeah, yeah, what's the short of Tim Dog? 1:02:00.080 --> 1:02:02.520 He was basically like meeting chicks online and like finessing 1:02:02.560 --> 1:02:06.680 amount of money and ship and then he and then 1:02:06.720 --> 1:02:11.360 he died quote unquote, quote unquote putting that record out, man, Like, 1:02:11.760 --> 1:02:12.960 were y'all what was the thought? 1:02:13.000 --> 1:02:13.920 Were y'all worried about? 1:02:13.960 --> 1:02:14.120 You know? 1:02:15.080 --> 1:02:18.919 It was a it was it was a dicey proposition. 1:02:19.120 --> 1:02:25.320 But you know, I said to Tim at one point, right, 1:02:25.440 --> 1:02:29.200 I said, you know this is you can't you can't 1:02:29.320 --> 1:02:31.320 go and tour on the West coast, dude. 1:02:31.440 --> 1:02:34.120 It's just you know, you're and and he got this 1:02:34.200 --> 1:02:34.560 whole thing. 1:02:36.200 --> 1:02:39.320 Yeah exactly, he said, he goes, I'm just in gangs 1:02:39.360 --> 1:02:43.880 and everything and all that stuff. But you know, the 1:02:44.200 --> 1:02:49.120 crazy thing was is that that record, like I forgot 1:02:49.160 --> 1:02:51.480 where it charted. I think it went to maybe number 1:02:51.520 --> 1:02:54.120 seven or number five on on the on the Rap 1:02:54.160 --> 1:03:01.040 Singles chart. But it was the first ever music video 1:03:01.680 --> 1:03:07.080 that was sold as a commercial release. We sold, yeah, 1:03:07.200 --> 1:03:10.240 we sold over one hundred thousand vhs is for. 1:03:10.280 --> 1:03:11.240 Nine ninety nine. 1:03:11.680 --> 1:03:11.880 Wow. 1:03:12.000 --> 1:03:17.000 Yeah, sou And you know it's crazy to the album 1:03:17.160 --> 1:03:18.320 Penicillin on Wax. 1:03:20.440 --> 1:03:23.200 This is like hip hop at this point started really. 1:03:22.960 --> 1:03:29.520 Becoming, you know, like an album oriented thing where if 1:03:29.520 --> 1:03:31.760 you if you if you had a hit hip hop 1:03:31.800 --> 1:03:35.520 single in the early eighties and you did an album, 1:03:36.000 --> 1:03:38.360 it was a good guess that your album was going 1:03:38.440 --> 1:03:39.200 to do well. 1:03:39.160 --> 1:03:40.520 Because the single drove it. 1:03:40.680 --> 1:03:43.560 But then I think, you know, the fans really started 1:03:43.600 --> 1:03:48.560 to want more of a narrative, you know, and Tim Yeah, 1:03:48.600 --> 1:03:52.640 and Tim could not break out of that narrative, you know, 1:03:53.000 --> 1:03:55.760 his narrative. He could not, he could not expand on it. 1:03:55.840 --> 1:04:00.120 But the production on the album because some company he 1:04:00.320 --> 1:04:03.520 did created something it was like where you can mix 1:04:03.560 --> 1:04:06.600 in quad. It was really cool, and they let Joe 1:04:06.640 --> 1:04:09.320 hold onto this machine for for like a month or 1:04:09.320 --> 1:04:11.080 so and he mixed the Tim Dog album on it. 1:04:11.720 --> 1:04:14.640 And I'll never forget listening to that headphones. So I 1:04:14.680 --> 1:04:19.240 was like, God, this sounds so amazing. Just but yeah, 1:04:19.320 --> 1:04:21.120 the record didn't really. 1:04:21.600 --> 1:04:24.280 Yeah, I bought it because at that time that was 1:04:24.320 --> 1:04:27.680 when like just rough house, like I would buy anything. 1:04:27.680 --> 1:04:30.200 I saw the label on the label, so I was like, 1:04:30.560 --> 1:04:33.200 I'm like all right, and I came to appreciate that 1:04:33.400 --> 1:04:35.400 much later me a shout out to my man Jayson, 1:04:35.760 --> 1:04:37.680 who was like, we're like the only two people in 1:04:37.720 --> 1:04:42.480 the world at rob fendersing long wax. Oh yeah, it's 1:04:42.480 --> 1:04:44.280 I mean, if you look at it, it's like, I mean, 1:04:44.320 --> 1:04:47.320 it's comedy, but it's just it's just a man just 1:04:47.400 --> 1:04:48.960 hollering and that ship is amazing. 1:04:49.280 --> 1:04:50.200 He has a song. 1:04:58.440 --> 1:04:58.720 Robbed. 1:05:01.880 --> 1:05:09.720 Also, how did how did you guys get connected with Cyprus? 1:05:10.920 --> 1:05:11.000 So? 1:05:11.800 --> 1:05:20.920 I uh, while managing school starting the label, I also did. 1:05:21.040 --> 1:05:25.480 I promoted shows at post shows at the Chocadaro and 1:05:25.600 --> 1:05:27.480 the Chestnut Cabaret. 1:05:28.600 --> 1:05:29.880 Yeah and uh. 1:05:30.200 --> 1:05:36.520 I also managed a group called Executive Slacks. Executive Slacks 1:05:36.960 --> 1:05:41.560 for my best way to describe what they were it 1:05:41.760 --> 1:05:43.200 was nine Inch Nails. 1:05:43.480 --> 1:05:45.280 Years before Nine Inch Nails Wow. 1:05:45.320 --> 1:05:48.040 As a matter of fact, the same label Network Records 1:05:48.120 --> 1:05:50.840 up in Canada used to license the Slacks off of us. 1:05:52.280 --> 1:05:57.040 It was a It was a drummer named Bobby Ray 1:05:57.280 --> 1:06:02.800 who played standing up playing those electronic drums, and a 1:06:02.880 --> 1:06:07.720 keyboard player and a singer name and the play guitar 1:06:07.840 --> 1:06:11.400 named Matt Morello. I'll tell you one record that you know. 1:06:11.440 --> 1:06:15.920 I just tell everybody if they're even vaguely curious about 1:06:15.960 --> 1:06:20.040 this group. It's called Fire and Ice and it's an 1:06:20.200 --> 1:06:25.360 awesome record and it's real techno rock. But way back, 1:06:25.640 --> 1:06:31.600 long before this stuff really came of age. So so 1:06:31.840 --> 1:06:34.800 there was a A and R guy at Geffen Records 1:06:35.200 --> 1:06:40.240 in Los Angeles named Meo Vukovic and Mio was a 1:06:40.320 --> 1:06:42.959 DJ prior to becoming an A and R guy. 1:06:43.200 --> 1:06:45.360 And there was another guy who was an A and 1:06:45.480 --> 1:06:47.600 R guy who was a He was a lawyer for 1:06:47.680 --> 1:06:48.360 Warner Bros. 1:06:48.400 --> 1:06:50.640 Records, who became an A and R guy, and him 1:06:50.640 --> 1:06:56.240 and Meo kind of formed like a partnership. And MEO's 1:06:57.600 --> 1:07:02.080 two favorite artists in the world was schooly D and 1:07:02.200 --> 1:07:07.400 Executive Slacks. And so he called me up one day 1:07:08.040 --> 1:07:10.520 and we got to know each other. He flew out, 1:07:10.640 --> 1:07:14.560 we hung out, and him and Jeff had signed two 1:07:14.680 --> 1:07:17.959 hip hop artists to Geffen. One of them was a 1:07:18.120 --> 1:07:23.760 group called seven A three and they were produced by 1:07:24.680 --> 1:07:26.640 Lawrence Muggs Mugga Rood. 1:07:27.640 --> 1:07:30.280 And the other group was a group. 1:07:30.040 --> 1:07:35.320 Called Silk Times Leather Yeah, I remember, by Jermaine dupri So. 1:07:38.320 --> 1:07:41.440 Those projects were what they were, you know, they I 1:07:41.640 --> 1:07:45.760 just they just didn't happen. But Joe mixed them and 1:07:46.320 --> 1:07:49.160 I helped mark and pro the singles. Now you remember 1:07:49.160 --> 1:07:51.360 at this point, I also I also had a market. 1:07:51.600 --> 1:07:53.760 I was marketing records for other labels because all the 1:07:53.840 --> 1:07:56.120 labels that couldn't sign, you know, we end up signing 1:07:56.120 --> 1:07:56.480 school you. 1:07:56.520 --> 1:07:57.320 To Drive records. 1:07:57.680 --> 1:08:03.200 But every label, one of them, every budd Electra Warner's Capital, 1:08:03.400 --> 1:08:07.120 they all wanted to sign Schoolly. So the so the 1:08:07.120 --> 1:08:10.400 the guys that didn't didn't sign them, they signed their 1:08:10.480 --> 1:08:13.440 hip hop out act say, they called me up and 1:08:13.480 --> 1:08:14.720 they say, can you help us? 1:08:14.800 --> 1:08:19.240 Right, so now I have like this little company doing this. 1:08:19.840 --> 1:08:26.840 Uh Roseman who I was. I was engaged to Rose 1:08:26.880 --> 1:08:30.679 at the time, and she started doing retail promotion and 1:08:31.160 --> 1:08:34.280 Jackie Paul the rap chart editor for his magazine. 1:08:34.560 --> 1:08:36.360 So we had a little company, right. 1:08:36.840 --> 1:08:41.439 So we worked Easy E, n W A, Tone, Loak, 1:08:41.680 --> 1:08:46.160 Young MC, a whole host of other records. So we 1:08:46.240 --> 1:08:49.640 did this whole thing with with Geffen for seven eight 1:08:49.680 --> 1:08:52.759 three and Silk Time's Leather. Uh, we mark and promote 1:08:52.760 --> 1:08:56.519 the record and Joe mixed it and the records didn't happen. 1:08:57.360 --> 1:09:03.240 But you know, we started a relationship with Jermaine and 1:09:03.280 --> 1:09:06.879 his father Michael Malton Michael. Michael was the tour manager 1:09:07.000 --> 1:09:10.640 for the Fresh Fest and and did a lot of 1:09:10.640 --> 1:09:16.320 stuff with Russell and def Jam and everything. Right, So, 1:09:16.320 --> 1:09:25.479 so Joe was out in La working mixing Meloman Ace 1:09:25.920 --> 1:09:31.080 uh Mentor and Meloman is Send's brother from Cypress Hill, 1:09:31.600 --> 1:09:34.479 and so Meloman was telling Joe, you should check out 1:09:34.600 --> 1:09:39.360 my brother's hip hop group, which was coincidentally produced by Mugs. 1:09:39.840 --> 1:09:45.240 So Joe brings this cassette home and we listened to 1:09:45.320 --> 1:09:49.759 it and we're digging it and everything. And it's funny 1:09:49.800 --> 1:09:54.000 because we we went up to Columbia that day and 1:09:54.040 --> 1:09:56.760 I'll never forget because Joe's brother Phil came with us 1:09:57.160 --> 1:10:00.599 and we had a meeting with a schedule with Kep Woodley, 1:10:00.800 --> 1:10:05.519 who was our a R Kevin up there, and when 1:10:05.560 --> 1:10:10.000 we got there, they said Kevin's no longer here, and 1:10:10.040 --> 1:10:12.400 it's like, oh, well, what's thee know? 1:10:12.680 --> 1:10:14.800 Oh but yeah, you guys, you could talk to Kurt 1:10:14.800 --> 1:10:16.760 Woodley and Kurt replaced him. 1:10:17.240 --> 1:10:20.200 So one Woodley's out, the other Woodley's in no relation 1:10:20.920 --> 1:10:24.360 and Kurt, Kurt was kind of cut from a different 1:10:24.360 --> 1:10:28.120 cloth and are wise, he was more more i think, 1:10:28.280 --> 1:10:31.960 much more kind of in tune intuitive with everything that 1:10:32.040 --> 1:10:36.320 was going on, and Kurt wasn't feeling Larry Layer, and 1:10:36.400 --> 1:10:39.840 he was unapologetic about it, you know, and we went 1:10:39.920 --> 1:10:42.200 round and round, and Kurt's whole thing was it he 1:10:42.320 --> 1:10:48.439 felt that the Will Smith Dougie Fresh storytelling style of 1:10:48.520 --> 1:10:49.040 hip hop. 1:10:49.680 --> 1:10:51.240 You know. Yeah, you know. 1:10:51.280 --> 1:10:53.200 I didn't even tell the whole Cheeba story. But that's 1:10:53.200 --> 1:10:54.280 all right, we don't need to get in that. 1:10:55.080 --> 1:10:59.080 Cheeba was actually our first record with with Columbia, right 1:10:59.160 --> 1:11:05.599 when we did and and so when we left, as 1:11:05.680 --> 1:11:09.800 I'm leaving, I give him a copy of the Cypresil tape. 1:11:09.840 --> 1:11:12.760 I said, well, you might dig this in, right, And 1:11:12.840 --> 1:11:16.599 he called me up that night and he said, he goes, oh, man, 1:11:16.720 --> 1:11:20.439 that's Cypricil. He goes, I played that for Donnie. That's like, 1:11:20.680 --> 1:11:21.599 we got to do this. 1:11:22.800 --> 1:11:25.760 Yeah, Donnie. And and so. 1:11:27.240 --> 1:11:30.240 Cyprecil what happened to have been in the studio they 1:11:30.240 --> 1:11:33.799 were cutting five songs for their publishing deal of BMG, 1:11:34.720 --> 1:11:38.599 and so we offered a singles deal and they sent 1:11:38.680 --> 1:11:42.040 us the five songs and then it became an album deal. 1:11:42.760 --> 1:11:48.519 And so that was such a groundbreaking. If you remember 1:11:48.560 --> 1:11:53.719 who Hans Soeul was, I met my soul from well 1:11:55.040 --> 1:11:58.519 you were not the one that yeah, no imagination. 1:12:00.400 --> 1:12:03.320 He had like this spiked or this hair. 1:12:06.360 --> 1:12:07.920 Well he's a gospel rapper now. 1:12:07.920 --> 1:12:11.400 Yeah, but back then, back then, he was part of 1:12:11.400 --> 1:12:15.840 that that like that school of like like kuame and yeah, 1:12:16.040 --> 1:12:16.519 that whole. 1:12:16.920 --> 1:12:19.439 So we have met Hans so on the on the 1:12:19.479 --> 1:12:25.519 at the Motown Philly video and Hans lived about maybe 1:12:26.160 --> 1:12:29.040 twelve blocks away from me, but during the crack area, 1:12:29.160 --> 1:12:34.000 twelve blocks is you know, well twelve blocks that might 1:12:34.040 --> 1:12:39.400 be twenty blocks and crackers crackers. So it's like seven 1:12:39.479 --> 1:12:43.519 pm and he's like, yo, man, I just came back 1:12:43.520 --> 1:12:46.800 from New York's at he's I came, I came back 1:12:46.800 --> 1:12:51.960 from New York. Yo, I'm gonna change your life. He said, 1:12:52.000 --> 1:12:54.240 y'all got to get here. Me and Tarik we were 1:12:54.280 --> 1:12:55.479 like his little interns, you. 1:12:55.400 --> 1:12:56.799 Know whatever, always rolling around. 1:12:56.920 --> 1:13:00.240 Hans is really responsible for Tarik being the freestyle aster 1:13:00.360 --> 1:13:02.519 he is now because Hans used to do that a lot. 1:13:03.200 --> 1:13:06.880 So we like, all right, it's gonna be nighttime running 1:13:06.880 --> 1:13:11.719 through West Philly. Somehow we got to Hans's block and 1:13:12.360 --> 1:13:15.120 he's like he no build up. He just said, listen 1:13:15.120 --> 1:13:19.320 to this first song he plays the Summertime by Jazz. 1:13:19.360 --> 1:13:21.640 He's from the press, Prince and we couldn't guess. He's like, yes, 1:13:21.720 --> 1:13:22.160 who this. 1:13:22.080 --> 1:13:24.439 Is and we still didn't know that was Will and 1:13:24.520 --> 1:13:27.160 Jeff like by the second verse with rock. 1:13:27.120 --> 1:13:32.679 Him and then he puts pigs on ship. 1:13:35.560 --> 1:13:39.400 And we were like, what the hell? 1:13:39.880 --> 1:13:40.439 We just. 1:13:41.880 --> 1:13:46.080 We many have the scanners and everything, and see you 1:13:46.120 --> 1:13:47.720 know the machine I was telling you about that he 1:13:47.760 --> 1:13:50.920 mixed Pilson on wax with the quad. Use that for 1:13:50.960 --> 1:13:56.759 the police scanners, you know, like crazy, Yeah, No, Joe's 1:13:56.760 --> 1:13:57.120 no joke. 1:13:58.400 --> 1:14:01.400 Now that album sucked me up, man, that's. 1:14:00.400 --> 1:14:02.160 It, and it came from nowhere. 1:14:02.640 --> 1:14:05.640 Well here's here's here's the other thing too. It's that 1:14:06.439 --> 1:14:13.479 it's that we ship like thirty thousand plus albums. 1:14:13.880 --> 1:14:18.960 And you you're seeing the bugs bunny that you know, 1:14:19.160 --> 1:14:21.680 the thing where he jumps out on stage and there's crickets. 1:14:22.880 --> 1:14:23.640 That's what it was like. 1:14:23.840 --> 1:14:28.200 It was like nothing, nothing right, And the weeks are 1:14:28.200 --> 1:14:32.680 going by and it's like, what's going on here, you know, 1:14:32.760 --> 1:14:33.520 and people. 1:14:33.240 --> 1:14:37.879 Are calling DJ's are people we're loving this record? But nothing, 1:14:38.600 --> 1:14:45.400 and then uh, the B side of the One Killer 1:14:45.479 --> 1:14:54.680 Man ends up in Juice where omar but he's a 1:14:55.320 --> 1:14:58.080 Tupaka Shore's character is chasing Omar ev. 1:14:59.840 --> 1:15:01.680 You you could watch, you could sit there in the 1:15:01.680 --> 1:15:05.080 theater and you can suddenly see people like you know, 1:15:05.960 --> 1:15:09.479 and then it just exploded. Now it's on fifty thousand 1:15:09.560 --> 1:15:11.479 copies a week, and it's just. 1:15:11.439 --> 1:15:13.680 Like because I bought the Juice soundtrack thinking it was 1:15:13.720 --> 1:15:14.840 on that and it wasn't. 1:15:15.400 --> 1:15:16.800 But shoot him up on the Yah. 1:15:20.560 --> 1:15:24.040 Yeah, it's just it was just it's it's it was 1:15:24.520 --> 1:15:27.200 like just a real innovative master. 1:15:27.320 --> 1:15:27.519 Wait. 1:15:27.600 --> 1:15:35.599 Speaking of studio, for where is uh? Where is Kravits today? 1:15:36.760 --> 1:15:41.240 Studio for West Coast? He has a studio for in 1:15:41.240 --> 1:15:41.840 the West. 1:15:41.880 --> 1:15:45.000 It's I think it's in Venice Beach. Andy funky drummer, 1:15:45.880 --> 1:15:46.719 drummer Kravitz. 1:15:47.040 --> 1:15:51.320 You know what, I'm going to give props, you know, 1:15:51.920 --> 1:15:57.280 Andy to me and for where you know what I 1:15:57.360 --> 1:16:00.000 knew at the time, I just saw. 1:16:00.040 --> 1:16:04.479 But the guy was the most incredible gefted musician. You know, 1:16:06.680 --> 1:16:09.960 him and I, you know, we started out cool, and 1:16:10.000 --> 1:16:11.840 then there was a period where we didn't get along 1:16:11.960 --> 1:16:14.559 for a long time, you know, but then later on 1:16:14.760 --> 1:16:17.639 he ended up moving uh to a house near our 1:16:17.760 --> 1:16:22.000 our wives, you know, became friends and you know, uh, 1:16:22.040 --> 1:16:26.439 but he yeah, he started the Studio four West, Studio 1:16:26.479 --> 1:16:26.920 four West. 1:16:27.000 --> 1:16:35.000 Okay, the time that I met you at the one 1:16:35.000 --> 1:16:38.280 of those Philly Hall of Fame thing, my Jiggers or 1:16:38.280 --> 1:16:40.280 whatever you you and Roseman. 1:16:40.040 --> 1:16:41.000 Was there, yep. 1:16:41.640 --> 1:16:45.639 And really, I mean yeah, I was there to see 1:16:45.640 --> 1:16:48.560 my dad get inducted, but really I was trying to 1:16:48.600 --> 1:16:50.280 make a bee line to YouTube to see if that 1:16:50.479 --> 1:16:55.960 I could intern at Studio four. And this is right, 1:16:56.479 --> 1:17:00.880 this is right on the crest of Chris Cross, like, yeah, 1:17:01.800 --> 1:17:07.920 about to dominate the world. And yeah, I think you 1:17:07.920 --> 1:17:10.640 guys hired me on the on the on the on 1:17:10.760 --> 1:17:11.760 the strength of. 1:17:14.640 --> 1:17:17.719 That Chris Ross Cross was blowing up so fast. 1:17:18.520 --> 1:17:22.040 Yeah, because my first day there I was I felt 1:17:22.080 --> 1:17:24.040 like I was part of the Michael Jackson Dangerous Tour. 1:17:25.200 --> 1:17:28.240 I was mailing all these I remember. 1:17:28.479 --> 1:17:30.200 I remember the first time I ever saw you. You 1:17:30.240 --> 1:17:32.920 were sitting there at the big conference table. And the 1:17:32.960 --> 1:17:35.360 thing is, it's a tony. They gave me this Q 1:17:35.439 --> 1:17:37.400 and a thing for my book, and they you know, 1:17:37.479 --> 1:17:39.559 they one of the questions was about you and everything. 1:17:39.600 --> 1:17:41.960 And they said and I said, I remember you had 1:17:41.960 --> 1:17:43.759 a knapsack on, right. 1:17:44.120 --> 1:17:46.959 And you didn't take it off never and I thought. 1:17:46.840 --> 1:17:50.320 Like, so, so I'm walking, so I said, you know, 1:17:50.760 --> 1:17:53.640 this kid's got a knapsack on, like it must be 1:17:53.720 --> 1:17:56.360 kind of uncomfortable sitting there wearing a knapsack. 1:17:55.960 --> 1:17:57.479 Stuffing records and and everything. 1:17:57.840 --> 1:17:59.760 And then like I walked past a half hour lady 1:18:00.240 --> 1:18:04.719 had the knapsack on, and I thought, well, maybe he's 1:18:04.880 --> 1:18:08.519 afraid that somebody's gonna snatch it if he puts it down. 1:18:08.520 --> 1:18:12.479 You know, like you know, I always carry my soundtrack 1:18:12.520 --> 1:18:15.519 with me every every superhero needs some music. 1:18:17.400 --> 1:18:20.920 Yeah, Chris gross record. I'll tell you this. 1:18:21.920 --> 1:18:26.639 If if things start blowing up, then it's Tommy and 1:18:26.760 --> 1:18:28.080 Donnie and Kevin. 1:18:27.920 --> 1:18:31.880 Glin Kevin, Kevin's here. Okay, so he seemed philly. Yeah. 1:18:32.200 --> 1:18:36.200 So if it's like a major, if it's lynk Q 1:18:36.400 --> 1:18:38.000 or Larry Ladry, then it's like, oh that's what I. 1:18:37.920 --> 1:18:39.879 Felt, lynk Q. That's that's a good. 1:18:40.720 --> 1:18:45.360 But you know, if things start getting successful, then it's 1:18:45.439 --> 1:18:47.800 suddenly sony like, yes, that was all us. 1:18:47.880 --> 1:18:49.960 Oh yeah, oh yeah, no, I'll tell you what it was. 1:18:50.000 --> 1:18:52.200 It was so funny. What's the politics And well, oh 1:18:52.320 --> 1:18:55.880 my god, dude, I did. 1:18:56.800 --> 1:19:02.599 I was on CNN Power Lunch thing right doing an interview, 1:19:03.680 --> 1:19:08.040 and then my my cell phone rings and it's an 1:19:08.400 --> 1:19:12.000 executive from Columbia Records, who I just won't I don't 1:19:12.000 --> 1:19:13.880 want to embarrass him, so I'm not gonna mention his name. 1:19:14.320 --> 1:19:19.679 But he was saying, you know, Chris, you know, he goes, 1:19:19.720 --> 1:19:22.080 I gotta tell you something. You know, Tommy really likes you. 1:19:22.320 --> 1:19:24.880 I said, yeah, what I like Tommy. Yeah, but you 1:19:24.960 --> 1:19:27.960 know what, man, you know, Tommy likes his guys to 1:19:28.040 --> 1:19:32.200 be like, you know, laid back and so this and so. 1:19:32.800 --> 1:19:36.320 Here's the thing. This this guy is talking to me. 1:19:36.680 --> 1:19:40.439 He's coming through like on this frequency that I'd never 1:19:40.520 --> 1:19:44.040 heard from him before, you know. And then I kind 1:19:44.040 --> 1:19:47.519 of put it together that he's sitting there talking to 1:19:47.560 --> 1:19:50.719 me and Tommy's sitting right there, and then he starts 1:19:50.760 --> 1:19:54.599 telling me stuff like, well, you know, like you know, Tommy, 1:19:54.720 --> 1:19:57.320 like you know, he's really like, you know, Tommy's a star, 1:19:57.640 --> 1:19:59.000 He's a star, and all. 1:19:58.880 --> 1:20:00.240 This stuff and this whole thing. 1:20:01.040 --> 1:20:07.839 But when Crisscross happened, there was a picture of Tommy, 1:20:08.760 --> 1:20:14.320 Donnie and Me and Crisscross staying in front of us 1:20:15.360 --> 1:20:20.760 and Rolling Stone magazine like two weeks. 1:20:20.560 --> 1:20:24.240 Later there is the picture, but where did I go. 1:20:24.880 --> 1:20:28.439 Oh yeah, it was like that all the time. 1:20:29.200 --> 1:20:33.200 Really, yeah, yeah, I got When we get. 1:20:33.080 --> 1:20:36.280 To another when we get to another part of the story, 1:20:36.479 --> 1:20:40.160 I'll tell you something that's really just and I can't 1:20:40.200 --> 1:20:41.439 believe I had fallen for it. 1:20:41.720 --> 1:20:44.760 But but you became a star on your own, right though, Chris, 1:20:44.760 --> 1:20:47.320 because we see you on and everywhere. 1:20:47.400 --> 1:20:49.639 Yeah, but but you know, I wasn't. I wasn't trying. 1:20:49.840 --> 1:20:53.120 You know, I wasn't trying. I uh But the Criss 1:20:53.120 --> 1:20:57.160 Cross record, and I'll make I'll make an admission here 1:20:57.400 --> 1:21:00.600 that you know I talk about in the book. I 1:21:00.600 --> 1:21:03.920 I didn't like the song that wasn't When we got 1:21:04.160 --> 1:21:07.960 the Crisscross, Like the demos, they had a song little 1:21:07.960 --> 1:21:11.400 Boys in the Hood, right, and what it was about 1:21:11.680 --> 1:21:15.720 it was about two kids twelve years old trying to 1:21:15.720 --> 1:21:16.840 make that decision. 1:21:17.160 --> 1:21:18.040 Okay, well my. 1:21:18.120 --> 1:21:22.080 Role models are like, you know, these the gangsters with 1:21:22.120 --> 1:21:24.360 the clothes and the cash and the cars and ever 1:21:24.400 --> 1:21:26.479 that do I want to do that? Or do I 1:21:26.520 --> 1:21:29.439 want to do this? And I thought that was a 1:21:29.479 --> 1:21:33.519 really interesting thing for a hip hop record, you know, 1:21:34.040 --> 1:21:37.479 like that and coming from these little kids. So that's 1:21:37.600 --> 1:21:41.799 what I thought was going to be, right, Jump didn't 1:21:41.920 --> 1:21:48.240 happen until later on in the project, and it was 1:21:48.400 --> 1:21:50.760 it was I just kind of thought it was a 1:21:50.880 --> 1:21:56.360 noisy little song, you know, And it's a noisy, little 1:21:56.760 --> 1:22:02.920 like annoying, little like, you know thing, and so so 1:22:03.200 --> 1:22:08.000 Michael Maldon, David Kahn at Columbia Records and our guy, 1:22:08.280 --> 1:22:10.920 he said, you guys should put a baseline on this song. 1:22:11.120 --> 1:22:13.360 So Joe goes and puts a bassline on it, and 1:22:13.400 --> 1:22:14.040 they mix it. 1:22:14.680 --> 1:22:17.760 And I was leaving rough house one night and this 1:22:17.840 --> 1:22:20.400 one we had the one room office, the glass doors, 1:22:20.960 --> 1:22:24.320 and a fax came to remember facts is Facts comes 1:22:24.320 --> 1:22:29.200 through and it was from Michael Maldon and said, Chris 1:22:30.160 --> 1:22:35.920 Jump is going to be a number one song. Smash Michael, 1:22:37.360 --> 1:22:39.920 I should have kept that. I should have kept it, Okay. 1:22:40.000 --> 1:22:48.360 So here's what happened. We Rosie Perez was the talent 1:22:48.479 --> 1:22:54.720 coordinator for In Living Color and Rich had shot Rich 1:22:54.800 --> 1:22:58.080 Murray shot to Criscross video down at Lanta. It was 1:22:58.120 --> 1:23:00.599 the first time it ever snowed in Lanta, like thirty 1:23:00.600 --> 1:23:04.080 two years, right, And we shot the video for like 1:23:04.160 --> 1:23:09.439 eighteen thousand dollars right right, And they performed on In 1:23:09.560 --> 1:23:12.519 Living Color the next day. 1:23:13.640 --> 1:23:16.200 We're my wife and I. I lived on Sitting. 1:23:16.000 --> 1:23:18.280 Line Avenue, and my wife and I were at the 1:23:18.320 --> 1:23:22.639 Overbrook Diner and I was really hungover and my wife 1:23:22.720 --> 1:23:28.839 was giving me a bunch of shit and. 1:23:26.640 --> 1:23:29.720 And I was just like, all I wanted to do 1:23:29.840 --> 1:23:33.640 was just eat. And you know, it was the weekend. 1:23:33.840 --> 1:23:39.960 And but I'm hearing this older, middle aged couple sitting 1:23:40.160 --> 1:23:41.120 Caddy Quarter. 1:23:40.960 --> 1:23:45.280 From us, and the guy was going on and on 1:23:45.640 --> 1:23:46.840 about Crisscross. 1:23:47.160 --> 1:23:49.040 Right, this older white guy, he. 1:23:49.040 --> 1:23:51.880 Goes, these kids were so amazing and blah blah blah 1:23:51.880 --> 1:23:53.920 blah blah blah, And I thought, wow. 1:23:54.040 --> 1:23:55.439 I looked at Mer and I said, I think this 1:23:55.520 --> 1:23:59.000 record's gonna this record's gonna blow up. And uh yeah 1:23:59.080 --> 1:24:01.640 it was. Uh it was like a behemoth. 1:24:03.000 --> 1:24:08.200 Can I ask one question about Jump besides the money, 1:24:07.760 --> 1:24:15.240 but uh, can you clarify something? So obviously my guess 1:24:15.320 --> 1:24:17.560 is the backstory with Jump around? 1:24:17.840 --> 1:24:19.639 Oh yeah, I'll tell you all about. 1:24:19.479 --> 1:24:23.160 It, right of course the end of the record Joe 1:24:23.200 --> 1:24:27.160 the bier Nicola right. 1:24:25.880 --> 1:24:29.479 Which, Okay, My my guess is. 1:24:31.920 --> 1:24:40.519 That because both acts recorded for rough House not no wait, 1:24:40.560 --> 1:24:41.920 let me let me get my theory out. 1:24:42.080 --> 1:24:42.519 See if. 1:24:44.240 --> 1:24:49.120 Because Mugs producer jump Around was also a producer at 1:24:49.400 --> 1:24:54.920 at Rouse. My guess is and I always wanted to 1:24:54.960 --> 1:24:59.000 know this because I would do the same thing because 1:24:59.040 --> 1:25:02.679 the the the same midnight what's the what's the break 1:25:02.720 --> 1:25:08.720 of of uh pluck tuning midnight Manziel's midnight themes? Yeah, 1:25:08.720 --> 1:25:13.960 all right, so the midnight theme drums? Uh that Cyprus 1:25:14.040 --> 1:25:15.080 used on. 1:25:16.800 --> 1:25:17.880 Kill a Man? Right? 1:25:19.200 --> 1:25:24.679 Uh, that's all Mugs right. My guess is that. 1:25:24.840 --> 1:25:29.600 Okay, let me use some you know that some of 1:25:29.680 --> 1:25:31.680 Mugs's tools were utilized. 1:25:32.960 --> 1:25:39.240 Okay, besides the jump say exactly what happened? Okay, so 1:25:41.320 --> 1:25:46.559 we I passed on a lot of great artists, you know, 1:25:46.600 --> 1:25:52.160 and I passed on a House of Pain arrest development. 1:25:55.920 --> 1:26:02.800 What was that, Alicia Keys? I know that's painful. I mean, 1:26:04.880 --> 1:26:10.120 well now you know, but here's the thing. It's it 1:26:11.800 --> 1:26:13.800 if if you were there, you know what I mean. 1:26:13.840 --> 1:26:14.360 But any happen. 1:26:14.400 --> 1:26:15.560 Let me let me get back to this story of 1:26:16.080 --> 1:26:21.160 so so so so we got a we got the 1:26:21.280 --> 1:26:26.000 demo from MUGS for a House of Pain. Okay, it 1:26:26.120 --> 1:26:31.479 was good, but it wasn't in our humble estimation at 1:26:31.520 --> 1:26:33.519 a time there yet. But you know, who can hear 1:26:33.560 --> 1:26:35.439 what in a demo in this day and age. Right, 1:26:36.040 --> 1:26:40.519 But here's the bottom line. There was not a song 1:26:40.640 --> 1:26:44.880 called Jump on that demo. It wasn't there. Okay, number one, 1:26:45.080 --> 1:26:52.040 number one, number two, right. Amanda Cypress is one half 1:26:52.080 --> 1:26:54.960 the Cypress management team. A Manda Shear calls me up 1:26:55.439 --> 1:26:58.920 and she says, here's how She so, you guys have 1:26:59.000 --> 1:27:02.800 a song coming out called Jump, and I said, yeah, 1:27:03.040 --> 1:27:07.080 Criss Cross Jump. Well, House of Pain has a song 1:27:07.160 --> 1:27:10.479 called Jump, and you guys stole it and gave it. 1:27:10.439 --> 1:27:11.679 To Criss Cross, right. 1:27:12.640 --> 1:27:16.519 And I was like, that's the most insane thing I 1:27:16.520 --> 1:27:20.960 ever heard, because Jermaine dupri did everything right, you know. 1:27:21.560 --> 1:27:24.639 So she and I said, so where did we steal 1:27:24.680 --> 1:27:25.240 the song from? 1:27:25.280 --> 1:27:25.679 A many? 1:27:25.760 --> 1:27:26.799 Oh? Is on the demo? 1:27:27.080 --> 1:27:27.320 Right? 1:27:28.080 --> 1:27:32.160 And I said really, I said, hold on, right, and I. 1:27:32.120 --> 1:27:34.960 Go I got the demo and I'm sitting there on 1:27:34.960 --> 1:27:37.680 the film with her and I'm listing the songs. I said, so, 1:27:38.560 --> 1:27:40.559 I'll tell you what's here blah blah blah blah blah 1:27:40.560 --> 1:27:42.920 blah blah blah blah. Which one of those songs is? 1:27:43.400 --> 1:27:45.880 Which one did we take? And she goes, oh, well, 1:27:45.880 --> 1:27:47.880 the song's called Jump. I said, well, there's no song 1:27:47.960 --> 1:27:51.439 called jump on this demo. This is what Mugs gave us, right, 1:27:52.000 --> 1:27:55.400 but they couldn't let it, you know, everlast couldn't let. 1:27:55.280 --> 1:27:57.160 It go, couldn't let it Okay, Yeah, and. 1:27:57.160 --> 1:28:00.439 Here's the thing. Mugs told me. He never thought Joe 1:28:00.560 --> 1:28:03.280 Jack the song, he never thought. And the thing is 1:28:03.320 --> 1:28:05.559 that I can tell you this right now. I mean, 1:28:06.000 --> 1:28:08.760 Joe Nick Low God bless him. Man, I've known this man. 1:28:08.960 --> 1:28:11.519 You know intimately there is Joe. 1:28:12.960 --> 1:28:13.519 Joe's not. 1:28:16.880 --> 1:28:20.640 He doesn't have that thing right to take like he 1:28:21.200 --> 1:28:24.560 that would require much more time, effort. 1:28:24.320 --> 1:28:26.720 And energy and resources to do. 1:28:27.920 --> 1:28:30.080 Then Joe wants to expend you know what I mean, 1:28:30.200 --> 1:28:32.360 He's not He's not that kind of like you know. 1:28:32.960 --> 1:28:35.439 What was his reaction when he first heard it? 1:28:35.520 --> 1:28:39.200 Oh he loved it. He goes, yes, yeah, no, he said, 1:28:39.320 --> 1:28:41.200 oh yeah, he goes, you should see it in the video. 1:28:41.240 --> 1:28:42.760 He gets right up in the camera. 1:28:42.520 --> 1:28:48.559 And okay, I always wanted to know. Okay, there's something else. 1:28:49.120 --> 1:28:55.799 I'm just reminded of explaining nas situation. Yeah, you guys 1:28:55.840 --> 1:28:58.599 had him first, Yeah, and then what happened? 1:28:58.760 --> 1:28:59.120 All right? 1:29:01.080 --> 1:29:05.400 So so at this point, you know, we're when we 1:29:05.520 --> 1:29:09.360 got to Sony right to Clumb it with CBS at 1:29:09.400 --> 1:29:14.200 the time, it was like, you know, there's death Jam 1:29:14.439 --> 1:29:18.000 and there's you guys, right, and you're it. We're not 1:29:18.200 --> 1:29:22.719 doing any other hip hop right. And the next week 1:29:23.160 --> 1:29:25.920 we go up for our first meetings of like people 1:29:25.960 --> 1:29:29.839 like Angela Thomas or product manager, and I'll never forget 1:29:30.000 --> 1:29:35.400 Angela Thomas was eating a salad and Kevin Woodley walks 1:29:35.479 --> 1:29:38.040 us in and he goes, yeah, this is a Chris 1:29:38.040 --> 1:29:40.800 Schwartz and Joe Nicholo. That's their hip hop label, rough 1:29:40.840 --> 1:29:41.360 House that we. 1:29:41.360 --> 1:29:42.120 Just did a deal with. 1:29:42.600 --> 1:29:44.840 And Angela's kind of like she's got her mouthful of 1:29:44.880 --> 1:29:47.799 food because she just found out that they did Russia 1:29:47.800 --> 1:29:51.880 Associated labels, which is like thirty companies, right you. And 1:29:51.920 --> 1:29:54.200 she goes and she's like looking and she's like, oh, 1:29:54.360 --> 1:29:56.880 another label, and you could just see that that look 1:29:56.920 --> 1:30:02.960 on her face so so deaf jam. Then something happened 1:30:03.000 --> 1:30:05.400 and they left, they got you know, they went to 1:30:05.680 --> 1:30:08.400 they went through a renegotiation and it just didn't work out, 1:30:08.439 --> 1:30:12.920 and they went over to mc A, PolyGram whatever. And 1:30:13.000 --> 1:30:18.559 we were it right, and we were now doing really 1:30:18.640 --> 1:30:22.719 well and we had a lot of pipeline revenue coming 1:30:22.760 --> 1:30:25.680 to us. You know, the labels don't have to give 1:30:25.720 --> 1:30:26.599 it to you all at once. 1:30:26.720 --> 1:30:27.240 It's there. 1:30:27.520 --> 1:30:36.480 So so h mc search uh wanted to sign Nas 1:30:37.040 --> 1:30:43.719 now a couple of months prior to this. Uh there's 1:30:43.760 --> 1:30:46.400 a guy that he he was the manager of. 1:30:46.360 --> 1:30:51.599 A club called Revival, Philly. Yeah, Greg mcgara, Yeah, yeah, 1:30:51.800 --> 1:30:54.000 I lived at Revival. I was like, I was there 1:30:54.040 --> 1:30:54.639 all the time. 1:30:55.040 --> 1:30:57.479 Greg was the manager and we used to hang out 1:30:57.479 --> 1:31:02.320 to the wee hours and you know, and he constantly 1:31:02.479 --> 1:31:03.080 played me. 1:31:03.200 --> 1:31:05.280 This record. 1:31:06.120 --> 1:31:10.280 Live at the Barbecue, right, and he said, you know, 1:31:10.600 --> 1:31:13.920 you should find this kid Nas and sign him. But like, 1:31:14.200 --> 1:31:17.040 I know that this label, Wild Pitch was owned by 1:31:17.040 --> 1:31:20.120 Stu Fine, and I said, he's already signed. He's already 1:31:20.120 --> 1:31:23.080 signed to Wild Pitch, you know. So so I just 1:31:23.560 --> 1:31:24.160 that was it? 1:31:24.439 --> 1:31:24.639 Right? 1:31:26.439 --> 1:31:30.320 And so I get a phone call from Donnie Einer 1:31:30.840 --> 1:31:33.519 and he goes, Look, he goes, I want to introduce 1:31:33.600 --> 1:31:37.839 you to Search. He's got this artist that that you should, 1:31:37.960 --> 1:31:38.599 you know, look. 1:31:38.439 --> 1:31:42.919 At, named Nas. I was like, oh really, so awesome. 1:31:43.040 --> 1:31:43.240 Yeah. 1:31:44.200 --> 1:31:48.400 So Search comes down the Philadelphia with Faith Newman and Nas. 1:31:49.320 --> 1:31:51.400 We go to the Spaghetti Warehouse. 1:31:52.880 --> 1:31:57.519 After midnight, post the post, after post the original after midnight. 1:31:57.760 --> 1:32:02.160 I know those guys that ran Oh my god, all right, 1:32:02.240 --> 1:32:09.080 so so we uh we we do this deal and 1:32:09.280 --> 1:32:12.360 uh it was two things where we signed NOAs and 1:32:12.439 --> 1:32:14.240 we also did the deal for. 1:32:14.320 --> 1:32:18.120 The soundtrack as Zebrahead and uh. 1:32:18.840 --> 1:32:22.840 The first thing we do if NAS was halftime uh 1:32:22.920 --> 1:32:27.000 Rich Murray, Uh production protege James Brummel did the video 1:32:27.040 --> 1:32:31.920 for like three thousand dollars, you know, and then stuff 1:32:31.960 --> 1:32:35.719 started happening, you know, and uh, you know. 1:32:35.800 --> 1:32:38.800 John Scheckter. Let me go back to an earlier part 1:32:38.800 --> 1:32:39.280 of the Source. 1:32:39.320 --> 1:32:42.880 When I was we had the school D Records right, Uh, 1:32:43.160 --> 1:32:48.000 I was sending out thousands of records to retailers besides, you. 1:32:47.920 --> 1:32:49.360 Know, to do stuff. 1:32:49.720 --> 1:32:52.640 I mailed out the first issue of the Source in 1:32:52.680 --> 1:32:57.320 the school D Records package. So I knew John and Dave, 1:32:58.360 --> 1:33:02.400 Dave Mays and John Scheckter. And John Scheckter came down 1:33:02.560 --> 1:33:06.000 and his mission was to get a copy of the 1:33:06.120 --> 1:33:10.200 NAS songs, and I gave him like, I think five 1:33:10.360 --> 1:33:15.240 songs and then uh, I think he was like the 1:33:15.280 --> 1:33:17.960 first artist to get X amount of microphones and the 1:33:18.000 --> 1:33:18.639 Source or whatever. 1:33:19.840 --> 1:33:22.599 So now now shout out to miss info. 1:33:23.080 --> 1:33:28.560 Now there's a huge, huge thing happening with NAS. Right, 1:33:29.040 --> 1:33:35.880 everybody's excited, you know. And I get a phone call. 1:33:36.479 --> 1:33:41.760 Rose comes in and says, oh, Chris, I was just 1:33:41.840 --> 1:33:44.960 told by somebody at Columbia that that NAS was gonna 1:33:45.040 --> 1:33:46.280 be on Columbia proper. 1:33:46.880 --> 1:33:49.439 And I was like, well, how's that he signed to us? 1:33:49.560 --> 1:33:51.439 He's contracted to us, it's our you know. 1:33:52.560 --> 1:33:58.559 And uh I we called up Donnie and Joe and 1:33:58.600 --> 1:34:02.639 I go up there and Donnie shows us a it's 1:34:02.680 --> 1:34:06.840 a fax from Tommy and the subject. 1:34:06.400 --> 1:34:11.240 Matter is why is NAS signed to rough House? 1:34:11.760 --> 1:34:11.960 Right? 1:34:12.320 --> 1:34:13.519 So here's what happened. 1:34:13.920 --> 1:34:20.360 Search bought it to Columbia, and Columbia said, oh, we'll 1:34:20.360 --> 1:34:22.240 do it, but it has to be on rough House. 1:34:22.479 --> 1:34:29.280 Why because if it fails, then we end up eating 1:34:29.320 --> 1:34:32.840 it from our pipeline revenues. Right, It's no risk for 1:34:32.920 --> 1:34:36.360 them to put it on us, you know, And it 1:34:36.520 --> 1:34:37.759 backfired on them. 1:34:38.200 --> 1:34:44.360 It backfires continues. Yeah, sounds it feel like being their 1:34:44.600 --> 1:34:47.479 red headed step kid, like the red Headed step bitches, 1:34:47.640 --> 1:34:50.080 you know, was it not? 1:34:50.439 --> 1:34:51.160 I mean, were they not? 1:34:51.640 --> 1:34:57.240 Because as a label on their own, they weren't. They 1:34:57.280 --> 1:34:58.559 weren't doing jack. 1:34:58.400 --> 1:35:01.240 With hip hop. Yeah, I know, I know, but but 1:35:01.360 --> 1:35:02.040 here's what it is. 1:35:02.160 --> 1:35:02.840 Here's what it is. 1:35:04.040 --> 1:35:08.639 After was all said and done, you know, Donnie shows 1:35:08.720 --> 1:35:11.760 me this facts, right, and it's from Tommy and it 1:35:11.840 --> 1:35:17.280 says he's saying, quote unquote you fucking asshole. Right, that 1:35:17.360 --> 1:35:20.920 is what it's hit and exclamation points and underlined right. 1:35:21.840 --> 1:35:25.240 And Donnie was like, you know, Chris, I'm like in 1:35:25.360 --> 1:35:27.960 a thing here, can you please help us out? 1:35:28.720 --> 1:35:31.800 And so we did a deal. 1:35:32.080 --> 1:35:36.040 We let them, We let them buy us out. Should 1:35:36.120 --> 1:35:36.720 we have done it? 1:35:37.760 --> 1:35:43.080 You know, here's the thing it was, looking back in retrospect, 1:35:43.400 --> 1:35:46.880 probably not. But at the same time, it was kind 1:35:46.880 --> 1:35:49.439 of hard to say no when this is a guy 1:35:49.520 --> 1:35:53.040 who's kind of like your partner at the thing and everything, 1:35:53.160 --> 1:35:56.519 and you know, we hed done a lot for us 1:35:56.600 --> 1:35:58.760 and everything, and it was just a thing. 1:35:59.360 --> 1:36:02.960 And then I remember later on Faith Newman, you know, 1:36:03.160 --> 1:36:03.439 kind of. 1:36:03.479 --> 1:36:06.720 Conceded is that, you know, Chris, I said, part of 1:36:06.800 --> 1:36:09.160 the pressure with this is that is that we have 1:36:09.360 --> 1:36:13.720 nothing for Columbia proper, you know. And what they I 1:36:13.760 --> 1:36:17.439 guess they didn't want to see was that if rough 1:36:17.520 --> 1:36:20.840 House suddenly ups and leaves one day the way def 1:36:20.920 --> 1:36:24.080 Jam did, and can imagine like half your revenue stream 1:36:24.160 --> 1:36:27.960 walking out the door, right, you know, because you know, 1:36:28.080 --> 1:36:30.519 it doesn't for like really like a ten year period 1:36:30.560 --> 1:36:30.920 of time. 1:36:31.280 --> 1:36:37.599 We were their black music department, so so so, so yeah, 1:36:37.760 --> 1:36:38.479 that's what happened. 1:36:38.520 --> 1:36:41.519 But you know, it's funny. I would see Nas like over. 1:36:41.600 --> 1:36:44.800 I saw himong like over in Europe and everything, and 1:36:44.960 --> 1:36:47.560 he always said, he goes man, he goes. I just 1:36:47.680 --> 1:36:50.040 wanted to just stay on rough House so bad, and 1:36:50.240 --> 1:36:54.960 you know, and it's crazy. Yeah, so but he gave 1:36:55.000 --> 1:36:57.479 me a nice shout out in the Surviving the Times. 1:37:02.640 --> 1:37:07.960 My last day at rough House. Uh, two things happened. 1:37:12.240 --> 1:37:16.280 One freaking I don't even know if you're aware of this. 1:37:18.560 --> 1:37:21.200 My last day at rough House was Santy Gold's first 1:37:21.280 --> 1:37:24.640 day at rough House. Oh wow, as working under Da 1:37:24.680 --> 1:37:28.880 Vida gar right, and yeah, it was kind of like 1:37:28.960 --> 1:37:31.479 that dream Weaver moment like in Wayne's World. 1:37:31.680 --> 1:37:33.760 Yeah, who is that? 1:37:35.680 --> 1:37:39.200 I don't mean to creepy out Santi, Sorry, it was 1:37:39.240 --> 1:37:42.680 a long time. Santi was like she was Day of 1:37:42.760 --> 1:37:49.120 the Century. And Davida asked me for a favor and said, hey, uh, 1:37:50.360 --> 1:37:55.120 at you guys's signing party in two weeks, could you 1:37:55.320 --> 1:37:58.080 let one of our new acts open for you guys? 1:37:58.520 --> 1:38:02.880 And I was like, okay, who is it and she 1:38:03.040 --> 1:38:03.519 gives me. 1:38:05.160 --> 1:38:08.560 Blunted on reality, which at that point, which at that 1:38:08.680 --> 1:38:13.880 point was like it was a quiet two months. Like 1:38:15.360 --> 1:38:17.640 I was gonna say, nappy Heads didn't even have the 1:38:17.680 --> 1:38:21.880 remix yet. Early in the game, I knew when I 1:38:21.920 --> 1:38:26.200 saw the eight x ten because of the way that 1:38:26.360 --> 1:38:30.519 soap operas running my family's houses. Yeah, I was like, oh, 1:38:31.120 --> 1:38:33.679 that's the joint from As the World turn Yeah. Yeah, 1:38:34.880 --> 1:38:38.000 I didn't even know about Sister Act too yet. Sacha 1:38:38.080 --> 1:38:41.080 knew her as the trouble kid for me As the 1:38:41.120 --> 1:38:42.840 World Turns, So I loved it. 1:38:42.920 --> 1:38:44.680 I was like, yeah, hell yeah, let her do it. 1:38:45.840 --> 1:38:49.720 So how did like, so the fujis came to my 1:38:49.800 --> 1:38:56.479 attention two weeks like Thanksgiving of November ninety three, but 1:38:57.240 --> 1:38:59.439 she told me that you guys had had them long 1:38:59.520 --> 1:38:59.880 before that. 1:39:00.160 --> 1:39:08.640 Oh yeah, so how did you guys? We actually Roseman? 1:39:09.560 --> 1:39:09.880 Okay? 1:39:10.000 --> 1:39:12.960 Yeah, I mean, I I just you know, I'm real 1:39:13.040 --> 1:39:14.880 big on giving credit where credits. 1:39:14.640 --> 1:39:18.040 Due, you know, And was Roseman officially A and R? 1:39:18.200 --> 1:39:21.360 Like what was her job at? You know, who's an 1:39:21.360 --> 1:39:22.320 an R guy anymore? 1:39:22.360 --> 1:39:22.920 You know what I mean? 1:39:24.200 --> 1:39:24.519 Label? 1:39:24.680 --> 1:39:27.000 You know, Monica Lynch said the best music to came 1:39:27.120 --> 1:39:29.519 the biggest records that came the Tommy Boy came through 1:39:29.560 --> 1:39:32.160 their guy in the Puerto Rican guy in the mailroom, 1:39:32.200 --> 1:39:32.720 you know what I mean. 1:39:33.080 --> 1:39:34.400 Yeah. So, so. 1:39:36.280 --> 1:39:39.960 Remember the TV commercial Uh, I guess it was in 1:39:40.080 --> 1:39:44.040 the late eighties, early nineties. Uh, the the guys in 1:39:44.120 --> 1:39:47.080 the cab and the cab driver in New York City 1:39:47.200 --> 1:39:47.960 has the dreads. 1:39:48.439 --> 1:39:52.920 You know they showed that commercial. That's Hassan Scherie, Hassan Hassan. 1:39:53.040 --> 1:40:01.120 He was in Sphead, Yes, yeah, yeah, he always Oh yeah, 1:40:01.200 --> 1:40:04.200 so that's I guess that's a Zebrahead party. Is where 1:40:04.479 --> 1:40:05.280 he met Rose. 1:40:05.760 --> 1:40:08.559 Wow, and so he had night during their premiere. 1:40:08.880 --> 1:40:11.400 I guess I don't. I don't know how she meant him. 1:40:11.400 --> 1:40:13.560 That must have been because I rented a bus and 1:40:13.640 --> 1:40:15.040 took us all to New York City. 1:40:15.240 --> 1:40:18.280 I did. And that's that's the that's the ill fated 1:40:18.439 --> 1:40:19.080 night where. 1:40:20.680 --> 1:40:23.400 I remember Clark Kent went back and forth on in 1:40:23.560 --> 1:40:28.479 Vogue's hold On Nas freestyled, I have my one moment 1:40:28.600 --> 1:40:32.479 with romy with Nasty Nas back. You know, that was 1:40:32.560 --> 1:40:34.560 my one moment when I thought it was going to 1:40:34.560 --> 1:40:39.760 be emc and I gave it up after that for real. Uh, well, 1:40:40.000 --> 1:40:44.240 I just ad minute. This is twenty five years later. 1:40:44.400 --> 1:40:46.559 So you know, I hope nobody recorded that ship. 1:40:46.680 --> 1:40:49.640 But so he met her that night, he must have. 1:40:50.200 --> 1:40:50.920 That's crazy. 1:40:51.080 --> 1:40:57.360 So so what happened was she bugged the ship out 1:40:57.400 --> 1:41:01.120 of me for for a long time. She goes, you 1:41:01.280 --> 1:41:03.679 got to hear this. Listen to this group. Listen to scroup, 1:41:03.760 --> 1:41:06.240 Listen to group. So I'm in my car. 1:41:08.240 --> 1:41:14.679 And I put this tape in and the first thing 1:41:14.840 --> 1:41:19.720 that caught me was it like, oh, it's not like 1:41:20.320 --> 1:41:24.120 hip hop. Like it's hip hop, but there's you know, 1:41:24.680 --> 1:41:26.720 it had a whole different thing about it. 1:41:27.200 --> 1:41:30.880 And and then and and so, well you're familiar with 1:41:30.920 --> 1:41:32.120 that because you also have the goats. 1:41:32.400 --> 1:41:32.599 Yeah. 1:41:33.000 --> 1:41:36.400 Yeah, So so I thought, I thought, all right, so 1:41:36.640 --> 1:41:39.880 this is something a little bit unique and different. I 1:41:40.400 --> 1:41:43.640 didn't know their Haitian. You know, I'm embarrassed to say this. 1:41:43.840 --> 1:41:45.600 You know, I thought it was Jamaican. You know. 1:41:48.800 --> 1:41:52.880 This, what's new. So we go to the uh we we. 1:41:53.040 --> 1:41:55.759 Joe and I go up to their audition at David 1:41:55.840 --> 1:41:58.200 Sonenberg's office on the Upper East Side in this. 1:41:58.320 --> 1:41:59.120 Townhouse and. 1:42:01.280 --> 1:42:06.439 And there was like seven or eight people and but 1:42:06.720 --> 1:42:12.519 here's what what basically the thing that right away was 1:42:12.640 --> 1:42:18.559 that why Cleft the beat box and the acoustic guitar, 1:42:19.479 --> 1:42:22.719 and it was like, Okay, this is a little different, 1:42:24.000 --> 1:42:27.960 this is like and that That's what did. 1:42:27.880 --> 1:42:28.200 It for me. 1:42:28.760 --> 1:42:32.400 You know, you didn't hear a note from Lauren's now 1:42:32.439 --> 1:42:34.840 I'm I talked about in the book. I don't even 1:42:34.880 --> 1:42:37.559 remember her from the audition. And here's the thing. When 1:42:37.680 --> 1:42:40.479 we went, there was like six or seven kids, and 1:42:40.640 --> 1:42:43.800 at the end of the audition, why Clef like, it's 1:42:43.920 --> 1:42:45.439 now stripped doll's clothes off. 1:42:45.520 --> 1:42:47.719 He's in his boxers, going nuts and everything. 1:42:48.160 --> 1:42:51.360 And I'd found out later on they had a dussion 1:42:51.600 --> 1:42:56.240 for every major and independent we were their last shot. 1:42:56.760 --> 1:43:00.200 They said we were at So when we went to 1:43:00.320 --> 1:43:04.920 do the contracts, it was there was only three people 1:43:06.200 --> 1:43:08.479 and I was like, well, wait, what were where were 1:43:08.520 --> 1:43:09.960 all these other people that were there? 1:43:10.240 --> 1:43:10.400 Right? 1:43:11.080 --> 1:43:15.600 And so anyhow we did the album. Uh, most of 1:43:15.720 --> 1:43:21.160 my dialogue was with y Cleff and the manager, David Sonenberg. 1:43:21.840 --> 1:43:24.479 And when we got when I got the first batch 1:43:24.560 --> 1:43:27.640 of songs, it was really weird because like Prose was 1:43:27.760 --> 1:43:31.479 like the dominant rapper and I thought, you know, Prose 1:43:31.800 --> 1:43:35.680 was good, but he no, no, no, he he I'll 1:43:35.720 --> 1:43:37.560 tell you, but you're ready or not, you have to 1:43:37.600 --> 1:43:44.920 admit he's what he does on that track. Yeah, but 1:43:45.240 --> 1:43:49.320 I just wasn't feeling him carrying these songs. And I 1:43:49.479 --> 1:43:51.599 call up David and I said, David, you and I say, 1:43:51.600 --> 1:43:55.360 is this is a problem And he goes, well, he goes, yeah, 1:43:55.400 --> 1:43:57.920 it is a real problem. He says, because y clef 1:43:58.520 --> 1:44:00.719 is or Prose is why club's cousin. 1:44:00.880 --> 1:44:04.320 I'm like, oh shit, I gotta talk. But I said, 1:44:04.400 --> 1:44:06.120 fuck it. You know, lit a cigarette. 1:44:06.479 --> 1:44:08.920 You got Cleft on the phone, and I said, yo, man, 1:44:09.160 --> 1:44:12.240 I said, it's cool, but is there any way that 1:44:12.560 --> 1:44:13.559 you know, blah blah blah. 1:44:13.560 --> 1:44:16.439 It's diplomatic? Is possible? Clubs? Oh yeah, man, I got 1:44:16.520 --> 1:44:17.040 you right. 1:44:18.200 --> 1:44:24.040 Like a week later, different different thing. You know, pause 1:44:24.200 --> 1:44:25.840 is more pushed to the back, you know. 1:44:26.760 --> 1:44:26.880 Uh. 1:44:27.160 --> 1:44:31.240 And that first album and the touring and here here's 1:44:31.280 --> 1:44:33.120 the thing, man, you know, I always said this. There 1:44:33.200 --> 1:44:36.280 was like three groups, three hip hop groups from that day. 1:44:36.560 --> 1:44:42.439 The tour that was the Fujis Psychercil and the Roots 1:44:43.600 --> 1:44:48.360 constant touring. Yeah you're a constant god, those were they. 1:44:48.600 --> 1:44:51.400 I merried Scott Thomas, you know Scott Thomas over in 1:44:51.439 --> 1:44:55.880 the UK. Booking agent. Yeah, he would tell me, he said, 1:44:56.280 --> 1:44:59.240 he goes, yeah, all through those he you would always 1:44:59.240 --> 1:45:02.920 say those artists, those are the ones you know, Uh 1:45:03.320 --> 1:45:07.479 you had to but but ye, how about this. Two 1:45:07.760 --> 1:45:12.479 years after the release A Blunted on Reality, we're still 1:45:12.600 --> 1:45:17.960 selling six eight hundred copies a week SoundScan, right, So 1:45:18.200 --> 1:45:22.320 that's showing that this record. And I gotta tell you 1:45:23.040 --> 1:45:28.120 that whole thing with with Sony and Columbia was hanging 1:45:28.640 --> 1:45:29.240 not by. 1:45:29.200 --> 1:45:33.080 A thread, but by like a spiderweb thread like it was. 1:45:33.240 --> 1:45:38.280 Uh, they did a show in London and I wasn't 1:45:38.320 --> 1:45:42.920 at the show. But Luke Verge, who later on became 1:45:43.080 --> 1:45:46.000 head of every like he became my guy for Europe 1:45:46.040 --> 1:45:48.320 for everything. He was our He was head of international 1:45:48.400 --> 1:45:52.360 marketing for Columbia Records. He called, he's He's from Marseille 1:45:53.920 --> 1:45:55.920 and he calls me kiss. 1:45:56.400 --> 1:45:58.439 He was roaded a cat back with these guys. 1:45:58.520 --> 1:45:58.880 Last night. 1:45:58.880 --> 1:45:59.920 They're talking about dropping. 1:46:00.520 --> 1:46:07.080 You must do something, you know, and uh I called 1:46:07.120 --> 1:46:10.600 up Donnie and uh I said, Donnie, I said that 1:46:10.800 --> 1:46:11.959 they were gonna win Grammys. 1:46:12.000 --> 1:46:12.640 We just got it. 1:46:12.760 --> 1:46:15.120 We gotta stay with we gotta do this and. 1:46:15.439 --> 1:46:18.680 Stay with it and everything and do you know what 1:46:18.800 --> 1:46:22.200 it is like the lack of faith, because the thing is, 1:46:22.479 --> 1:46:25.200 I would even like to think that, like, Okay, the 1:46:25.360 --> 1:46:30.160 money by this point, you know, you have some gratitude 1:46:30.200 --> 1:46:32.360 because the money's good. 1:46:32.800 --> 1:46:34.679 You guys are doing the numbers. 1:46:34.880 --> 1:46:39.080 Yeah, Yet it's like each time out the out the gate. 1:46:39.280 --> 1:46:42.519 Well, no, I'll tell you this, at this point, at 1:46:42.680 --> 1:46:46.479 that point, I had a lot of confidence in the relation. 1:46:46.680 --> 1:46:47.240 I'll tell you this. 1:46:47.400 --> 1:46:51.400 When it when the first the first five years at Columbia, right, 1:46:51.960 --> 1:46:55.000 I was I was the wimpy kid, you know. 1:46:55.600 --> 1:46:59.320 I was easily easily bullied and and and you know, 1:46:59.600 --> 1:47:01.040 talk to to ship. 1:47:01.439 --> 1:47:11.400 In another diplomatic way. How how approachable is Tommy And 1:47:12.960 --> 1:47:15.640 is he one of the guys or is you know 1:47:15.760 --> 1:47:18.120 what you'd be like, hey, yo, but you. 1:47:20.479 --> 1:47:23.320 Kind of I got I got a little little story 1:47:23.880 --> 1:47:27.280 that that I'll get into. All right. 1:47:27.360 --> 1:47:28.040 So so. 1:47:32.520 --> 1:47:39.639 Lauren this record, right, the Miseducation of Lauren Hill. 1:47:40.240 --> 1:47:44.160 Yes, okay, uh, we allowed to talk about that record 1:47:44.200 --> 1:47:44.400 in here. 1:47:46.880 --> 1:47:56.600 No, the record, the record that the project is the 1:47:56.760 --> 1:48:02.320 vehicle for the story, right, but that she she was 1:48:02.439 --> 1:48:07.160 going to Japan to do a show for the Sony executives. 1:48:08.640 --> 1:48:11.880 We had just did this whole thing in in in 1:48:12.120 --> 1:48:17.400 the UK, and and I was going I was going 1:48:17.439 --> 1:48:21.160 with her to Japan. And this is shortly after my 1:48:21.439 --> 1:48:24.000 remember the phone call from the executives about you know, 1:48:24.320 --> 1:48:28.800 I am all right right, yes, so she's so we 1:48:28.920 --> 1:48:33.240 got this big thing happening, bought my ticket, all ready 1:48:33.280 --> 1:48:36.920 to go, and I get a phone call and it's 1:48:37.560 --> 1:48:44.200 Tommy's assistant. Oh, Chris, Tommy needs you to come up 1:48:44.280 --> 1:48:49.080 to a meeting with him and Danny DeVito. And who's 1:48:49.120 --> 1:48:53.280 the woman who runs Jersey Films you know I'm talking about, right, 1:48:54.080 --> 1:48:57.560 And and I said, oh, yeah, yeah, cool, right, so 1:48:58.120 --> 1:48:59.439 when's when's the meeting? 1:48:59.479 --> 1:49:01.679 She gives me a hey. I said, ah, impossible, I'm 1:49:01.720 --> 1:49:05.680 going to be over in Japan with with miss Hill, right, 1:49:06.280 --> 1:49:12.439 And she goes, oh, well, Tommy is really asking if 1:49:12.520 --> 1:49:15.520 you could, you know, make this It's really really. 1:49:15.360 --> 1:49:16.400 Important, you know. 1:49:17.240 --> 1:49:21.040 And I'm like, and I'm thinking, wow, Like, how can 1:49:21.120 --> 1:49:21.880 I say no? 1:49:22.080 --> 1:49:22.400 All right? 1:49:22.800 --> 1:49:24.120 So I said, all right. 1:49:25.760 --> 1:49:30.320 I go in the clickman's office and I said, yeah, 1:49:30.360 --> 1:49:32.720 it looks like I'm not going to the thing in 1:49:32.840 --> 1:49:36.160 Japan with miss I'm doing the Tommy wants to have 1:49:36.320 --> 1:49:40.000 this really important meeting with Danny DeVito. And all this stuff, 1:49:40.840 --> 1:49:45.720 and Kevin just laughs at me and he goes, he goes, Yeah, 1:49:45.840 --> 1:49:46.599 what's going to happen. 1:49:47.280 --> 1:49:48.719 The plane's going to take off. 1:49:49.720 --> 1:49:50.559 And then they're going to cancel. 1:49:50.600 --> 1:49:54.000 They're get to canceled the meeting. I said, I said, Nah, 1:49:54.360 --> 1:49:58.439 it ain't gonna happen, something like that. And of course 1:49:59.479 --> 1:50:03.880 the plane takes off. Call Oh, Danny had to do 1:50:04.040 --> 1:50:05.519 some reshoots. 1:50:05.360 --> 1:50:08.800 You know, and and so and so. 1:50:09.720 --> 1:50:12.760 How else could I look at this right and to 1:50:12.880 --> 1:50:19.280 think that that he didn't want me meeting the Sony guy, 1:50:19.520 --> 1:50:23.960 the Sony you know over there. 1:50:24.400 --> 1:50:27.920 But you know, the reality is like what what what 1:50:28.040 --> 1:50:31.000 would I do? You know, I'm just you know, what 1:50:31.240 --> 1:50:33.840 am I going to talk to these guys about? You know, 1:50:33.960 --> 1:50:35.760 I'm just there as part of the you know, with 1:50:35.920 --> 1:50:40.479 her and the show and everything. But but but you know, 1:50:40.560 --> 1:50:43.200 here's the reality. I could never prove this in a 1:50:43.280 --> 1:50:46.880 court of law, and it's only speculation on my part. 1:50:47.479 --> 1:50:50.760 But you know, but the only thing I could say, 1:50:51.360 --> 1:50:54.840 if that meeting was just so fucking important, how come 1:50:54.880 --> 1:50:59.600 it never got rescheduled? Because I had called up? So 1:51:00.080 --> 1:51:02.800 when are we doing the meeting with Danny? And it 1:51:03.000 --> 1:51:07.080 just kind of like, you know, yeah, So what was. 1:51:07.080 --> 1:51:08.920 Your breaking point, because you said that you probably was 1:51:08.960 --> 1:51:11.280 a pushover for the first like five years. 1:51:11.080 --> 1:51:13.600 But what was the moment when you were like it 1:51:13.800 --> 1:51:17.280 was the I guess the breaking the breaking point where 1:51:17.479 --> 1:51:20.640 it's no, I didn't suddenly become nasty and mean, it 1:51:20.880 --> 1:51:24.960 was just sort of when when you really like, I'll 1:51:25.000 --> 1:51:27.920 tell you this, there's a guy, uh, his name is 1:51:28.000 --> 1:51:32.639 Chris Blackwell, and he's the founder of Island Records. He's 1:51:33.120 --> 1:51:37.320 one of my best friends, and he's been my mentor 1:51:37.640 --> 1:51:47.040 for years. And when you really get a grasp of 1:51:47.200 --> 1:51:53.439 the type of money that those companies make, it's it's, uh, 1:51:53.720 --> 1:51:54.799 it's mind boggling. 1:51:55.560 --> 1:51:55.680 Uh. 1:51:56.120 --> 1:51:59.240 For instance, at the time, you know a major distribution 1:51:59.439 --> 1:52:05.639 power M right, Well, there's manufacturing costs, right, you deduct 1:52:05.720 --> 1:52:12.040 that you pay for your manufacturing. The company that's manufacturing 1:52:13.720 --> 1:52:18.680 the record is the same company, but you're paying, but 1:52:18.960 --> 1:52:22.320 you're paying for the man you like. In other words, 1:52:23.280 --> 1:52:26.720 they're paying you're you're paying them to manufacture. You're not 1:52:26.800 --> 1:52:33.000 getting any break on that, you know. So it's and 1:52:33.120 --> 1:52:38.240 then let's face it, uh, international Okay, I can tell 1:52:38.280 --> 1:52:41.720 you this that, uh, there was an old there was 1:52:41.760 --> 1:52:44.240 an old time industry account named Bert Padell. 1:52:45.720 --> 1:52:50.040 Yeah, well it's guy's got the. 1:52:50.280 --> 1:52:53.880 Biggest He was an accountant, big shouted him out on 1:52:54.360 --> 1:52:54.639 the ones. 1:52:54.680 --> 1:52:57.760 What Bert Padell was that, you know, when you go 1:52:57.880 --> 1:53:00.800 to do a co venture right as a label, they 1:53:00.960 --> 1:53:03.160 just don't get it to you. You know remember when 1:53:03.200 --> 1:53:07.880 Andre herald the fifty million dollar thing, right, they don't. Yeah, 1:53:07.920 --> 1:53:11.439 they just don't. When you renegotiate, you got it. You 1:53:11.680 --> 1:53:16.800 have to come to them with a whole plan, like 1:53:16.960 --> 1:53:20.720 a prospectus. You have to have projections, you have to 1:53:20.800 --> 1:53:23.639 have a pro forma, You got to have all that stuff. 1:53:24.160 --> 1:53:28.320 You have to because if in order for them to 1:53:28.479 --> 1:53:31.519 cut loose with that money, they have to be able 1:53:31.640 --> 1:53:32.800 to justify it to. 1:53:32.760 --> 1:53:36.080 Whoever the board of whatever whatever it is. But that's 1:53:36.280 --> 1:53:38.880 part of the process like in any business. Right. 1:53:39.479 --> 1:53:43.040 So so when I when we did our finally did 1:53:43.120 --> 1:53:46.639 the co venture, uh, I had to get Bert Padell 1:53:46.880 --> 1:53:48.880 to help us put that stuff together because he's got 1:53:49.000 --> 1:53:49.519 he's got. 1:53:49.680 --> 1:53:51.760 All that stuff. But what I the reason I bring 1:53:51.840 --> 1:53:55.360 him up is that the majors is that were they 1:53:56.120 --> 1:53:58.719 one place that they really get you at that time 1:53:59.240 --> 1:54:02.679 when we have when we relying on the physical product, 1:54:02.760 --> 1:54:07.880 which was the lifeblood of the business was international internationally. 1:54:07.920 --> 1:54:12.560 You think about it, you everything is all computerized. 1:54:12.720 --> 1:54:16.240 So and somebody renegotiates a record dealer or something, you'd say, 1:54:16.240 --> 1:54:18.920 okay for international, We're going to get this particular royalty 1:54:19.040 --> 1:54:21.160 rate and they raise it by you know, a couple 1:54:21.240 --> 1:54:24.720 pointsever But somehow somebody forgets to put that in the 1:54:24.840 --> 1:54:26.080 royalty accounting program. 1:54:26.240 --> 1:54:30.320 Right, So then when you go back and you do a. 1:54:32.280 --> 1:54:37.280 So we audit, you would believe the hundreds of thousands 1:54:37.360 --> 1:54:41.840 to millions of dollars that you find and Roughhouse if 1:54:41.880 --> 1:54:44.800 we were anything else worldwide, we were one of the 1:54:44.840 --> 1:54:47.120 biggest hip hop labels in the world because our artists 1:54:47.200 --> 1:54:52.080 were massive, you know, and and you know, we were 1:54:52.200 --> 1:54:56.600 making so much money for them. And so that's at 1:54:56.680 --> 1:54:59.520 that point I just kind of felt like, you know, 1:55:00.760 --> 1:55:03.600 I I knew you know what I mean. So that 1:55:03.760 --> 1:55:06.400 gave me a lot of confidence and and you know, 1:55:06.720 --> 1:55:07.400 dealing with them. 1:55:08.280 --> 1:55:11.080 So what did you When did you officially leave Sony. 1:55:12.160 --> 1:55:15.160 Uh in nineteen ninety nine. 1:55:15.920 --> 1:55:19.960 Oh wow, right after right after during the I was 1:55:20.080 --> 1:55:27.240 having I was having meetings with in La with like 1:55:27.760 --> 1:55:32.040 uh David Geffen uh, heads of like e am I 1:55:32.560 --> 1:55:34.080 and Warner Brothers. 1:55:35.680 --> 1:55:40.320 The day after the Grammys. Yeah, I forgot because with 1:55:40.480 --> 1:55:45.280 rough Nation, yeah uh uh? And then Proud of from 1:55:47.360 --> 1:55:50.600 Yeah that record, dude, you should see that. You should 1:55:50.600 --> 1:55:53.920 see the video they did with Liz Lighty. It's it's 1:55:54.000 --> 1:55:58.040 incredibly rich. Shot it in this place in Delaware. It's 1:55:58.120 --> 1:55:59.720 like it's a white psych. 1:55:59.640 --> 1:56:02.240 That goes around the room and it's a camera that's 1:56:02.320 --> 1:56:06.320 on this like robotic thing. So the way it's one 1:56:06.440 --> 1:56:10.720 continuous shot. So you see this video and you see 1:56:10.840 --> 1:56:14.480 like hundreds of people in it, but there's no edit. 1:56:14.880 --> 1:56:16.320 Oh, it just keeps going. 1:56:16.640 --> 1:56:19.960 It just keeps going, and it's this whole system with 1:56:20.080 --> 1:56:22.720 the computer and the camera. That's a really awesome video. 1:56:22.760 --> 1:56:24.040 I can't find it though online. 1:56:24.200 --> 1:56:25.000 So where did you? 1:56:25.640 --> 1:56:27.080 Where did Rough Nation? 1:56:27.360 --> 1:56:27.480 Was that? 1:56:27.600 --> 1:56:29.000 Warner or Warner? 1:56:29.760 --> 1:56:30.080 Okay? 1:56:30.640 --> 1:56:32.360 I want to be the guy to bring black music 1:56:32.400 --> 1:56:33.080 back to Warners. 1:56:33.280 --> 1:56:33.960 That was my goal. 1:56:34.600 --> 1:56:35.720 It wasn't even about money. 1:56:36.680 --> 1:56:40.080 I actually took less money to go with Warners because 1:56:40.840 --> 1:56:44.600 and to me, the last real things in regards to 1:56:46.200 --> 1:56:51.920 black music of any significance was iced Tea in prints, right, 1:56:52.920 --> 1:56:54.960 and if you want to talk about cold chilling, I'm 1:56:55.000 --> 1:56:58.280 not sure, but you know that that was it, And 1:56:59.160 --> 1:57:02.960 I felt like if I could come there and kind 1:57:03.000 --> 1:57:07.040 of inject that rough House DNA into into the gig, 1:57:07.440 --> 1:57:10.120 you know that I could do something significant. 1:57:10.840 --> 1:57:14.200 So at the time when I started at rough House, 1:57:14.480 --> 1:57:17.440 you guys were just implementing a new system. Sound Scan 1:57:17.600 --> 1:57:21.960 hadn't really started yet, right, So every day I'm hearing 1:57:22.120 --> 1:57:26.120 all your people call and saying, hey, I need five 1:57:26.200 --> 1:57:28.160 hundred pieces reported in Billboard for this. 1:57:28.240 --> 1:57:31.240 And it was a little more subtle than that. 1:57:35.040 --> 1:57:39.160 But my point was then there was a point two 1:57:39.280 --> 1:57:42.520 months later, Oh yeah, where all that stopped. I'm like, wait, 1:57:42.560 --> 1:57:44.800 how come you guys aren't And people are being letting 1:57:44.840 --> 1:57:47.040 go because they're like, well, we have sound scan now, 1:57:47.080 --> 1:57:48.080 we don't need that more. 1:57:48.200 --> 1:57:50.760 How crazy when the chick when they went, when it 1:57:50.840 --> 1:57:55.600 went from from regular, when it went from the bullshit charts, 1:57:55.960 --> 1:57:59.760 the sound scan suddenly labels like us where the King 1:57:59.800 --> 1:58:02.320 of the he look right right, we sat there, man, 1:58:02.360 --> 1:58:04.880 You're you're trying, you're you're working a record and you're 1:58:05.160 --> 1:58:10.720 legitimately selling records and yet you're like trying to break 1:58:10.760 --> 1:58:13.800 an artist and you're in the one hundred and ten 1:58:14.120 --> 1:58:18.720 spot and Billboard. But then you see some god awful 1:58:19.640 --> 1:58:23.480 thing like sitting at number fourteen that you know is 1:58:23.600 --> 1:58:27.480 not selling, right, it's there. And then when SoundScan happened, 1:58:27.920 --> 1:58:32.680 suddenly hip hop was like the first twenty, right, it 1:58:32.800 --> 1:58:33.200 was crazy. 1:58:38.400 --> 1:58:40.640 So how do you feel now today? 1:58:41.640 --> 1:58:46.920 Uh, the way streaming is and stream Facebook likes, Instagram blaks. 1:58:47.000 --> 1:58:51.760 Yeah, yeah, it's just overwhelming you Well now, you know, 1:58:51.840 --> 1:58:54.320 it's funny, not as much as I thought, like, say, 1:58:54.360 --> 1:58:54.920 a month ago. 1:58:55.600 --> 1:58:59.680 Uh, you know, I have I somebody I. 1:58:59.720 --> 1:59:02.640 Started Twitter account and Instagram count like years ago, but 1:59:02.760 --> 1:59:05.240 never paid attention. Then I just started looking like a 1:59:05.320 --> 1:59:07.160 couple of weeks ago and it's like I had over 1:59:07.200 --> 1:59:09.360 a thousand followers on each. I said, oh, that's a 1:59:09.440 --> 1:59:12.920 nice little start, you know, And so I just started 1:59:12.960 --> 1:59:16.560 figuring how to do that. I never paid attention to 1:59:16.600 --> 1:59:20.800 that stuff. But in terms of the industry, I'll tell 1:59:20.840 --> 1:59:23.680 you what I think is. First off, when the whole thing, 1:59:24.120 --> 1:59:28.320 you know, digital and streaming for the first time since 1:59:28.400 --> 1:59:32.800 the fifties, there's now level playing field. But if you 1:59:32.880 --> 1:59:39.480 look at global music revenues, eighteen percent of global music 1:59:39.840 --> 1:59:43.360 revenues are independent artists. 1:59:43.960 --> 1:59:48.560 And that that's a big thing. I mean, what would 1:59:48.600 --> 1:59:52.240 that have been twenty years ago. Point independent artists, no 1:59:52.280 --> 1:59:54.280 I'm not artists not signed to record labels. 1:59:54.760 --> 1:59:59.760 Artists putting out music make up eighteen percent of global 2:00:00.120 --> 2:00:05.840 music revenues. And so this year is the I guess, 2:00:05.920 --> 2:00:11.480 I think it's the third year that global music revenues 2:00:11.720 --> 2:00:17.040 have taken a northernly upturn, you know, because let's face it, 2:00:17.360 --> 2:00:20.640 ever since the death now the stranglehold in the early 2:00:20.720 --> 2:00:25.960 two thousands, you know. But so yeah, so it's it's growing, 2:00:26.280 --> 2:00:29.760 and it's growing, it's going to keep growing. And I'm 2:00:29.880 --> 2:00:34.400 starting to see you know, labels now being a little 2:00:34.440 --> 2:00:38.280 bit more speculative, you know, in terms of artists and 2:00:38.320 --> 2:00:39.000 everything like that. 2:00:39.280 --> 2:00:43.640 And so in walking I've never spoken to anyone that 2:00:46.240 --> 2:00:48.280 once had a label and then walked away from the 2:00:48.320 --> 2:00:52.800 distribution deal whatever. So what happens to like a group 2:00:52.880 --> 2:00:55.280 like Cypress Hill will be a legacy act, so that 2:00:55.400 --> 2:00:57.720 album will continue to sell over and over. 2:00:57.960 --> 2:01:00.840 But they they brought us out, they bought the artists. 2:01:01.080 --> 2:01:07.080 They yeah, yeah, yeah, wow, yeah, because the yeah, because 2:01:07.080 --> 2:01:09.480 it was ninety nine, so yeah, the Carnival that wasn't 2:01:09.560 --> 2:01:10.200 rough House. 2:01:10.320 --> 2:01:12.240 That was rough it was Yeah. As a matter of fact, 2:01:12.320 --> 2:01:15.360 I paid for that record personally when we started. 2:01:15.320 --> 2:01:17.680 Oh wow, I love that album, and that's like, well 2:01:17.760 --> 2:01:18.520 that was Here's the. 2:01:18.560 --> 2:01:24.320 Thing, you know, they they didn't like the carnival when 2:01:24.360 --> 2:01:28.080 I when I when I went to the meeting, When 2:01:28.120 --> 2:01:31.000 I went, when I when I went, Now when I 2:01:31.080 --> 2:01:32.400 went to the first meeting. 2:01:32.760 --> 2:01:35.560 Here's what happened, Why Clef, Why Cleff. 2:01:37.880 --> 2:01:41.920 Originally I'd gone to Haiti a couple of times with them, right, 2:01:42.160 --> 2:01:47.320 and we had this idea to do a Haitian traditional 2:01:47.440 --> 2:01:49.960 Haitian kind of pop record, right, but mix it with 2:01:50.040 --> 2:01:51.440 some like hip hop and everything. 2:01:52.160 --> 2:01:54.320 And it was this wasn't going to be like what 2:01:54.440 --> 2:01:56.640 we call frontline release. This was going to be like 2:01:56.680 --> 2:01:57.720 an independent project. 2:01:57.760 --> 2:01:59.720 I was going to maybe see if Chris blackwell when 2:01:59.760 --> 2:02:02.520 you get involved with it on palm and stuff. So 2:02:02.960 --> 2:02:06.120 we start doing this record and then next thing, you know, 2:02:06.280 --> 2:02:09.200 it starts to kind of turn into something else. And 2:02:10.080 --> 2:02:12.680 now we think like, okay, now this is like a 2:02:12.760 --> 2:02:18.160 frontline rough house release, right, and but I had, you know, 2:02:18.560 --> 2:02:23.160 spent money at this point, and why Clev calls me 2:02:23.320 --> 2:02:26.600 up on a Tuesday night with Sonenberg to tell me 2:02:27.320 --> 2:02:32.320 that he booked like an eighty piece orchestra for that Thursday, 2:02:33.440 --> 2:02:37.000 and it was like, I haven't even gotten to like 2:02:37.120 --> 2:02:40.920 a budget approved or anything. And I had a meeting 2:02:41.040 --> 2:02:46.560 with Donnie on a Wednesday and I played him. I 2:02:46.680 --> 2:02:50.400 gave him the CD of like the five five or 2:02:50.440 --> 2:02:55.400 six songs, puts it in, listens to it, and does 2:02:55.520 --> 2:02:58.000 one of the worst things ever that could happen to 2:02:58.040 --> 2:03:00.920 you when you're trying to get somebody to like something. 2:03:01.560 --> 2:03:02.600 He handed it back to. 2:03:04.320 --> 2:03:08.680 Were staying alive on there? Uh no, no, but. 2:03:10.360 --> 2:03:13.240 No no. But he handed it back and he goes, 2:03:13.320 --> 2:03:16.600 I don't know, he goes sounds like something like vacation. 2:03:16.440 --> 2:03:19.200 Music or something, and I'm like think, going, yeah, now 2:03:19.240 --> 2:03:20.800 we got the orchestra going and ship. 2:03:22.800 --> 2:03:26.240 But Larry worked on that one too, right, yeah he did. 2:03:27.520 --> 2:03:30.800 He did. Wow, I love that album. 2:03:30.840 --> 2:03:33.440 Man. Oh yeah, it's a brilliant record. Man, it really is, 2:03:34.640 --> 2:03:41.160 really is. But but here's the thing that that the 2:03:41.280 --> 2:03:45.320 miseducation was the really that was the struggle. 2:03:45.880 --> 2:03:51.840 That was, like they first off, they didn't want a 2:03:52.000 --> 2:03:58.760 solo record from her, yet they wanted another Fuji's record, 2:03:58.960 --> 2:04:02.400 And of course, who could blame them, right, another Fuji's 2:04:02.400 --> 2:04:05.880 Record's gonna sell eleventy billion, you know whatever? 2:04:08.040 --> 2:04:09.960 But the the. 2:04:12.440 --> 2:04:15.280 They say said, okay, so now she's a good dual record, 2:04:15.680 --> 2:04:19.480 but we want we want Puffy, we want this. 2:04:19.760 --> 2:04:20.720 We want all these. 2:04:21.480 --> 2:04:25.360 And the problem was I, you know, I had a 2:04:25.600 --> 2:04:29.280 a thing at my house like a barbecue, and I 2:04:29.440 --> 2:04:33.400 invited her to come, not thinking that she would come, 2:04:33.720 --> 2:04:37.240 you know, And her mother called me up and says, oh, yeah, 2:04:37.280 --> 2:04:39.120 we're coming out, and I was like, oh, okay, so 2:04:40.280 --> 2:04:42.440 and she came. We hung out for a little bit 2:04:42.560 --> 2:04:44.560 and I had my house at the time. I had 2:04:44.600 --> 2:04:49.080 this room, like this music room, and she started to 2:04:49.160 --> 2:04:51.680 tell me about this record and it was gonna be 2:04:51.880 --> 2:04:57.040 like sixties and seventies soul, like the hip hop and 2:04:57.160 --> 2:05:00.720 this whole but real organic, you know, if analog and 2:05:00.800 --> 2:05:01.400 this whole thing. 2:05:02.200 --> 2:05:04.080 And it's like cool all this. 2:05:05.320 --> 2:05:06.720 And when. 2:05:08.760 --> 2:05:13.920 We I was in Bath, England with my wife and 2:05:14.080 --> 2:05:17.320 it was like three o'clock in the morning and the 2:05:17.480 --> 2:05:21.840 phone rings and I knew who it was. 2:05:22.760 --> 2:05:25.920 I knew it was gonna be Tommy and Donnie and 2:05:26.440 --> 2:05:30.080 I had given them the five songs, five or six songs. 2:05:29.880 --> 2:05:34.960 And five six songs from Miseducation. Yeah okay, and they said, and. 2:05:36.480 --> 2:05:39.120 Tommy's on Speak, Donnie was on speaker phone. He goes, yeah, 2:05:39.360 --> 2:05:42.720 Tommy and I listened to the record and we think 2:05:43.560 --> 2:05:44.480 the songs. 2:05:44.160 --> 2:05:46.600 Are very, very very mediocre. 2:05:46.800 --> 2:05:52.600 Oh now now I hang up and in whatever, I 2:05:52.640 --> 2:05:54.080 hang up, and I'm. 2:05:54.000 --> 2:05:57.240 Sitting there in the dark, right and my wife's asleep, 2:05:57.320 --> 2:05:59.520 and she's like, Chris, what's the matter? I said, they 2:05:59.560 --> 2:06:01.200 don't like to record, you know. 2:06:02.400 --> 2:06:04.280 And I'm like, and you know, but you got it. 2:06:04.600 --> 2:06:08.240 This is but see for me, you know, Okay, I 2:06:08.480 --> 2:06:11.320 like I said, Yeah, I talk all this bravado. 2:06:10.840 --> 2:06:13.640 About my dealings with them and everything, but still these 2:06:13.680 --> 2:06:17.200 are two guys who are, for the all intensive purposes, 2:06:17.400 --> 2:06:20.480 pretty powerful guys in the music business, you know, who 2:06:20.680 --> 2:06:22.080 have years and years. 2:06:21.920 --> 2:06:23.120 Of an experience, you know. 2:06:23.760 --> 2:06:27.200 But the one thing that that I held on too 2:06:27.480 --> 2:06:31.760 was that they were wrong about the Cleft record, completely 2:06:31.880 --> 2:06:37.440 wrong about that. And the record was good. It was 2:06:37.600 --> 2:06:41.280 just like it just like, how how could they? You know? 2:06:41.400 --> 2:06:41.720 I didn't. 2:06:42.040 --> 2:06:42.440 I didn't. 2:06:42.760 --> 2:06:45.480 Okay, this is the thing, though, I don't think it 2:06:45.720 --> 2:06:48.960 matters if it's good or bad. Could they no, no, no, 2:06:49.040 --> 2:06:51.400 I'm just saying, but it's the truth. Could they not 2:06:51.600 --> 2:06:53.480 see that it was going to be effective? 2:06:54.600 --> 2:06:54.640 Like? 2:06:54.800 --> 2:06:55.480 How could they not? 2:06:56.120 --> 2:06:59.240 Because she could have done any okay by that point. 2:06:59.080 --> 2:07:02.880 Because they would have because these guys, right, I always 2:07:02.960 --> 2:07:03.520 used to say that. 2:07:03.640 --> 2:07:06.320 I used to tell her this all the time earlier on. 2:07:06.520 --> 2:07:08.960 I used to say, you could sing over five minutes 2:07:08.960 --> 2:07:10.800 of static kiss and it'll be a hit record. But 2:07:11.840 --> 2:07:16.360 they lived, They live in these monolithic glass and steel 2:07:17.440 --> 2:07:22.000 places where everything is about radio and Greatest Gainer and 2:07:22.120 --> 2:07:26.520 weekly this and all that, and everything is formatted and 2:07:26.800 --> 2:07:30.040 this and that, right, And it's like, yeah, but the 2:07:30.120 --> 2:07:36.600 thing is, like I saw both the Carnival and miseducation 2:07:37.440 --> 2:07:43.120 these to me, this was like circa nineteen sixty eight. 2:07:44.480 --> 2:07:48.520 WMMR FM radio. Like you know, this isn't about this 2:07:48.680 --> 2:07:52.200 is about a body of work, you know, And this 2:07:52.320 --> 2:07:53.480 is the thing is. It's like. 2:07:55.080 --> 2:08:00.480 I felt that that I wasn't thinking not thinking singles, 2:08:00.600 --> 2:08:06.480 you know, I'm thinking this. But you know, Michael Maldon was. 2:08:06.680 --> 2:08:10.560 You know, we did a white label twelve inch for 2:08:10.720 --> 2:08:11.280 Lost Ones. 2:08:12.520 --> 2:08:13.000 We did it. 2:08:13.600 --> 2:08:15.920 Rough House did it. Clumby had nothing to do with it, 2:08:16.400 --> 2:08:17.960 and we didn't even tell him about it. We just 2:08:18.120 --> 2:08:21.160 did it and we sent out it was her idea 2:08:21.920 --> 2:08:25.800 and we sent that out and oh my god. 2:08:25.840 --> 2:08:30.640 The ship hit the fan. All right, yeah, they ship 2:08:30.920 --> 2:08:33.120 hit the I mean there. Oh well, here's the thing. 2:08:33.200 --> 2:08:36.680 They were angry or Michael Maldon was angry, you know, 2:08:36.800 --> 2:08:38.480 because I you know, let's face it, he was had 2:08:38.480 --> 2:08:41.640 a black music department and I just and I just 2:08:41.680 --> 2:08:46.200 went and did that ship, right, But he said, Donnie's 2:08:46.240 --> 2:08:47.960 gonna get ready to blow up your phone. 2:08:48.360 --> 2:08:50.280 But you know what, I never heard from Donnie. 2:08:50.720 --> 2:08:55.040 You don't know why, because now, no, I never heard 2:08:55.080 --> 2:09:00.680 from Donnie because it was so incredible. 2:09:00.520 --> 2:09:04.160 The way it started, the whole thing. It was like 2:09:04.320 --> 2:09:09.440 that song lost Ones. What a perfect entree vus for 2:09:10.000 --> 2:09:11.000 a project like that. 2:09:11.320 --> 2:09:13.720 But they've literally had doubts that the album is going 2:09:13.800 --> 2:09:16.800 to work, even though oh yeah, so how do they 2:09:16.800 --> 2:09:17.800 feel about the score of then? 2:09:17.880 --> 2:09:22.680 Oh no, no, well well no, no, not at all. 2:09:22.920 --> 2:09:24.200 But but I'll tell you this. 2:09:24.800 --> 2:09:29.360 They they wanted they they wanted. Not only did they 2:09:29.440 --> 2:09:33.520 want that that all that crazy you know, commercial production. 2:09:34.920 --> 2:09:42.720 They they definitely wanted an a nineties female R and 2:09:42.920 --> 2:09:51.880 B singer style photography. Yeah, it's like sont so, so 2:09:52.040 --> 2:09:54.920 think about this, think about think about what the cover is, 2:09:55.120 --> 2:09:56.760 and think about what they're thinking about. 2:09:57.360 --> 2:10:01.480 Yeah, album, it's can have been another cover. Yeah, yeah, no, 2:10:01.800 --> 2:10:02.120 it was. 2:10:02.240 --> 2:10:05.000 Like and no, they eventually they gave in because I 2:10:05.120 --> 2:10:07.280 know this that there was a there was a marketing 2:10:07.400 --> 2:10:12.600 meeting and Miguel B. Gower and a bunch of people 2:10:12.920 --> 2:10:19.360 in the room all said that the anticipation and the 2:10:19.800 --> 2:10:23.480 early feedback and everything was that this record was not 2:10:23.680 --> 2:10:25.880 only going to be critically acclaimed, it was going to 2:10:25.920 --> 2:10:27.080 be massive and everything. 2:10:27.160 --> 2:10:30.000 And then then, of course, you know, because it was 2:10:30.080 --> 2:10:31.520 lost ones and to do to do. 2:10:32.600 --> 2:10:37.160 Yeah, I just can't believe that they didn't know that 2:10:37.280 --> 2:10:40.440 they had it easy. Yeah, especially after killing. 2:10:42.760 --> 2:10:45.480 Well, you know, killing Me Softly was never even uh, 2:10:45.920 --> 2:10:48.360 it was never supposed to be a single. Fuji's didn't 2:10:48.440 --> 2:10:51.080 didn't even really want their song on the record, and 2:10:52.320 --> 2:10:54.680 and they didn't want to promote it, as you know 2:10:55.040 --> 2:10:55.400 they did. 2:10:55.640 --> 2:10:58.480 We did a video and and it just they hated it. 2:10:58.760 --> 2:11:01.960 So we shot it with them in the movie theater 2:11:02.040 --> 2:11:05.040 throwing popcorn at each other like like a non video video. 2:11:05.320 --> 2:11:05.440 Right. 2:11:07.440 --> 2:11:10.280 But yeah, that song, you couldn't stop it was that 2:11:10.360 --> 2:11:11.760 all love That wasn't on Love Jones. 2:11:11.800 --> 2:11:16.360 That wasn't you think the sweetest thing. I think it's 2:11:16.480 --> 2:11:20.040 possible that both can be, right, I mean it's not. 2:11:20.400 --> 2:11:23.000 I'm not one of these die hard Then that album 2:11:23.080 --> 2:11:27.480 changed my technically, that album actually changed my life in 2:11:27.600 --> 2:11:33.120 a technical sense. It affected my life. But I think 2:11:33.320 --> 2:11:37.160 I'm just shocked that they couldn't see that this was 2:11:37.200 --> 2:11:37.920 a no brainer. 2:11:38.920 --> 2:11:42.200 Well, they just they were you know what, I'll tell 2:11:42.240 --> 2:11:42.480 you this. 2:11:43.240 --> 2:11:49.240 They didn't trust their record to have all of it 2:11:49.640 --> 2:11:54.360 to be pulled off by her and her alone, Okay, 2:11:54.640 --> 2:11:57.400 because at that point she had gotten rid of her management. 2:11:58.400 --> 2:12:05.840 She was disassociated with everything and everybody up there except me, right, 2:12:06.160 --> 2:12:08.120 and that was it. So it was kind of like, 2:12:10.040 --> 2:12:15.160 you know, they they would have loved that that the 2:12:15.400 --> 2:12:21.720 A list, R and B nineties hip producers. 2:12:21.200 --> 2:12:23.400 You know, they didn't realize that she was the answer 2:12:23.480 --> 2:12:26.320 to the coming backlash that no one saw coming up. 2:12:26.400 --> 2:12:26.600 Yeah. 2:12:26.840 --> 2:12:29.800 Yeah. And the thing is I heard all sorts of stories. 2:12:30.080 --> 2:12:33.200 Uh somebody said that, you know that Puffy had this 2:12:33.360 --> 2:12:36.120 big meeting and pulled everybody into a room and held 2:12:36.200 --> 2:12:38.120 up the record and says this is where we need 2:12:38.200 --> 2:12:39.920 to be going and all this stuff, and. 2:12:40.560 --> 2:12:44.760 It just it really, you know, that's crazy. Yeh. How 2:12:44.800 --> 2:12:47.160 did the lawsuits and stuff affect you guys? If it all. 2:12:50.280 --> 2:12:50.880 I don't want to. 2:12:51.440 --> 2:12:54.440 I don't want to say anything, you know, I know 2:12:54.560 --> 2:12:57.960 I knew Beta, right, But here's here's a simple reoity 2:12:58.080 --> 2:13:00.960 the fact that they claimed that they wrote lyrics and everything. 2:13:02.240 --> 2:13:06.720 How How because I know these songs and I know 2:13:07.000 --> 2:13:09.720 everything that she's talking about in the songs. You know, 2:13:10.520 --> 2:13:14.400 moving records on South Orange Ave right, Okay, I used 2:13:14.400 --> 2:13:17.320 to take records there, you know, to move in records 2:13:17.360 --> 2:13:18.280 on South Orange, AZ. 2:13:18.600 --> 2:13:21.280 So why would why would those guys come up with 2:13:21.440 --> 2:13:24.720 that reference in that song? Why would they? How could 2:13:24.720 --> 2:13:25.600 they have wrote lost? 2:13:25.720 --> 2:13:25.760 Like? 2:13:26.040 --> 2:13:28.720 It's so crazy? But here's the biggest. 2:13:28.360 --> 2:13:31.360 Thing, right, and and here's what it is, in the nutshell, 2:13:32.000 --> 2:13:35.040 if they, in fact were the ones who made this 2:13:36.120 --> 2:13:41.800 monumental contribution to this production, well why haven't they made 2:13:42.680 --> 2:13:46.760 a similar monumental contribution to somebody else's production since you 2:13:46.880 --> 2:13:47.360 know what I mean? 2:13:48.840 --> 2:13:55.560 And make Yeah, that's uh, you know, I guess with 2:13:55.680 --> 2:13:58.000 all these due respect, James is not here too. 2:13:58.440 --> 2:14:02.000 Oh no, no, James, James. I know what James DIDs. 2:14:02.120 --> 2:14:06.200 James he wrote the thing because I'm like, after a while, 2:14:06.240 --> 2:14:09.120 it was just like Lauren did everything, and then people 2:14:09.200 --> 2:14:10.000 was like, wait a minute. 2:14:09.800 --> 2:14:13.960 Hold up, Yeah, yeah, but I don't think one person 2:14:14.040 --> 2:14:16.320 does everything yet do everything? 2:14:16.480 --> 2:14:19.160 Yeah, exactly, but it was a nice mark. It was 2:14:19.240 --> 2:14:20.040 needed at the time. 2:14:20.320 --> 2:14:25.080 I'll tell you what I know of some major, major 2:14:25.880 --> 2:14:30.520 market name producers who are out there who are given 2:14:31.280 --> 2:14:36.720 the ultimate credit for projects that they basically, yeah, they 2:14:37.440 --> 2:14:40.360 would come in and listen to some mixes and say okay, 2:14:40.480 --> 2:14:42.560 do this and do that and go home. 2:14:43.160 --> 2:14:45.320 And there's quite a few of them, and they rely 2:14:45.640 --> 2:14:48.200 on a lot of people the team. Right. 2:14:48.400 --> 2:14:57.400 Yeah about Wow, the lessons we learned today, Well, Chris, 2:14:57.920 --> 2:15:01.160 we thank you, thank you, thank you, thank. 2:15:01.000 --> 2:15:01.400 You, thank you. 2:15:03.360 --> 2:15:06.600 Yet this year is the anniversary of rough House. 2:15:06.840 --> 2:15:11.920 No, yeah, I was like, wow, you know, we're just yes, 2:15:12.120 --> 2:15:14.640 we're what we're trying to do is to figure out 2:15:15.280 --> 2:15:15.839 the research. 2:15:15.920 --> 2:15:18.560 You get a definitive date and we're going to probably 2:15:18.720 --> 2:15:21.120 use when we really just started with Columbia. 2:15:21.360 --> 2:15:27.320 Is the real anniversary because that's when all the records. Yeah, yeah, 2:15:27.360 --> 2:15:31.680 that would be yeah, thirty, it will be thirty. 2:15:32.040 --> 2:15:32.920 We talk about DMX. 2:15:34.160 --> 2:15:37.160 I forgot about how did you find DMX and why 2:15:37.280 --> 2:15:40.800 did y'all not uh we did a we. 2:15:41.080 --> 2:15:43.440 We well, you know, you know what the biggest problem was, 2:15:44.280 --> 2:15:50.040 we never like it was a good song, but we 2:15:50.160 --> 2:15:53.760 didn't have the like I never really got to. 2:15:53.800 --> 2:15:56.320 Hang out with him or anything, you know. And we 2:15:56.520 --> 2:15:59.040 did this song Born Loser, which at the time it 2:15:59.200 --> 2:16:01.440 was it was a good track for when you look 2:16:01.440 --> 2:16:04.800 at the time when that came out, Yeah, that was good. 2:16:05.240 --> 2:16:08.160 But we only did a singles deal. And I think 2:16:08.280 --> 2:16:11.880 what happened was that by the time we started trying 2:16:11.920 --> 2:16:14.920 to figure out what the next move was, something had 2:16:14.920 --> 2:16:15.880 already elapsed. 2:16:16.520 --> 2:16:19.480 And I know that the rough Riders had already And 2:16:20.120 --> 2:16:23.680 you know, I'll tell you this, I didn't get upset 2:16:23.800 --> 2:16:28.480 or anything because well, if I if I was so like, 2:16:28.680 --> 2:16:30.560 you know, like, if. 2:16:30.480 --> 2:16:32.280 This was something that was important to me, I'd have 2:16:32.320 --> 2:16:32.840 been up on it. 2:16:32.959 --> 2:16:42.320 You know. Wow, who knew? Yeah, well, I'll end on. 2:16:44.120 --> 2:16:45.879 All right, Chris, We thank you very much. Thank you for. 2:16:47.520 --> 2:16:52.200 The bills, Sugar, Steve and Laya. This Quest Love, Quest 2:16:52.240 --> 2:16:54.360 Love Supreme and we will see you on the next 2:16:54.440 --> 2:16:55.560 go round, all right. 2:17:05.640 --> 2:17:09.400 Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. This classic 2:17:09.440 --> 2:17:15.920 episode was produced by the team at Pandora. For more 2:17:16.000 --> 2:17:20.480 podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 2:17:20.520 --> 2:17:22.120 wherever you listen to your favorite shows.