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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on

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Speaker 1: iHeart Radio and welcome back to Coast to Coast George

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Speaker 1: Nori with you. Jocko will link with us his book Leadership,

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Speaker 1: Strategy and Tactics. Do you find, Jocko, that most successful

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Speaker 1: individuals are good leaders? Well, there's different levels of success,

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Speaker 1: and there's certainly people that might not be the best leaders,

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Speaker 1: but they're very good individual contributors and they do a

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Speaker 1: great job in their individual skill and they pay a

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Speaker 1: huge contribution to a team. So I'd say, you don't

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Speaker 1: necessarily have to be a great leader to be successful.

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Speaker 1: But one thing you will find is even with individual contributors,

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Speaker 1: you know, leadership isn't just about people listening to what

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Speaker 1: you have to say. Leadership there's a there's a big

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Speaker 1: piece of leadership that is knowing how to follow and

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Speaker 1: knowing how to be a good part of a team.

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Speaker 1: So I would say, in general, yeah, people that are successful,

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Speaker 1: they have good leadership qualities. They might not necessarily be

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Speaker 1: in a leadership position, but they are able to lead

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Speaker 1: up and down the chain of man to help the team.

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Speaker 1: When you started doing this, and again we talked about

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Speaker 1: you as a youngster. I bet you had heart though,

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Speaker 1: didn't you. Yeah, he was a pretty gritty kid. And

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Speaker 1: once again, when you're not extremely talented, then you have

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Speaker 1: to kind of learn how to gut through things. So

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Speaker 1: I'd say I definitely learned how to gut through things

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Speaker 1: at a pretty young age in Iraq. Did you see

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Speaker 1: some things that were horrendous? And I don't mean the

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Speaker 1: tragedy war, but I mean in leadership, you know, you'd

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Speaker 1: see some things that you definitely would would frown upon

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Speaker 1: from a leadership perspective. But you know, most of the time,

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Speaker 1: team's working together, and the military does a good job

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Speaker 1: of bringing its leaders and training its leaders up to

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Speaker 1: a good level. But you know, I always say that

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Speaker 1: the one person that's not going to become a good

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Speaker 1: leader is someone that lacks humility, because when you lack humility,

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Speaker 1: you already think you're the best leaders, so you don't

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Speaker 1: listen to anybody. Those are the guys, the guys that

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Speaker 1: had the big egos, that thought they knew everything. Those

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Speaker 1: are the guys that were problematic, and yes, that could

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Speaker 1: be very horrendous from a leadership perspective. Those are the narcissists.

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Speaker 1: Weren't saying Yeah. Absolutely. They don't listen to anybody else.

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Speaker 1: They don't listen anyone below them in the chain of

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Speaker 1: command because they think they know everything. They don't listen

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Speaker 1: to their peers because they think they do it better.

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Speaker 1: And oftentimes they don't even want to listen to their

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Speaker 1: boss because they're saying their bosses up in the ivory tower,

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Speaker 1: they don't know what it's like down here, and so yep,

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Speaker 1: they don't listen anybody. They don't even do any good

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Speaker 1: self assessments to see if there's anything that they could

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Speaker 1: do better. It's it's a real problem. The ego is

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Speaker 1: the biggest problem that leaders have. In your book, Leadership

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Speaker 1: Strategy and Tactics, do you try to train people how

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Speaker 1: to be better leaders? Yeah, well absolutely. And what you

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Speaker 1: can do as a leader is when you when certain

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Speaker 1: situations unfold, there's there's strategies and tactics that you can

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Speaker 1: do to get those problems solved. So, you know, if

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Speaker 1: you've got, for instance, let's say we're talking about egos,

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Speaker 1: Let's say you've got someone that's got a big ego

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Speaker 1: on your team, and you know, blow you in the

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Speaker 1: chain of command. They got a big egos, they think

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Speaker 1: they know everything, they don't want to listen anybody. There's

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Speaker 1: some strategy and tactics you can do to give them

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Speaker 1: some humility. And one of the ones that I love

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Speaker 1: to use is I used leadership as a tool often

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Speaker 1: to teach people things. So if I had a guy

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Speaker 1: in one of my platoons that had a big ego

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Speaker 1: and didn't want to listen to anybody, you know what

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Speaker 1: I do with him, I'd put him in charge of something.

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Speaker 1: I'd put him in charge of a training mission. And

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Speaker 1: that way he sees how difficult it is, he realizes

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Speaker 1: his own limitations, knows that he's not as good as

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Speaker 1: he thought he was, and it actually humbles him. So

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Speaker 1: there's all kinds of techniques and strategies and tactics that

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Speaker 1: you can use as a leader. What about some leaders

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Speaker 1: who you know just lie and do whatever they have

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Speaker 1: to do? Do you know, advance? Well, some people like that.

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Speaker 1: I mean, over time, they're going to get found out.

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Speaker 1: And this is one one that's tricky about this is

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Speaker 1: because you'll have someone that's lying, that's stepping on other

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Speaker 1: people to advance. And sometimes I guess what they do

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Speaker 1: get advanced, They do get the promotion because the senior

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Speaker 1: chanel command isn't in the trenches, so they don't see

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Speaker 1: that behavior up close. But the thing is over time,

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Speaker 1: in the long term, that is not going to work.

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Speaker 1: People do not want to work or follow or have

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Speaker 1: on the team people that they don't trust. Trust is

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Speaker 1: a huge part of being part of a team. You know.

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Speaker 1: Trust is what a relationship is. Right, If you and

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Speaker 1: I trust each other, we have a relationship. If we

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Speaker 1: don't trust each other, we don't have a relationship. A

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Speaker 1: team is a bunch of people that have relationships with

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Speaker 1: each other. So if someone's untrustworthy, they're not a good

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Speaker 1: team member, and that gets found out over time. Jucko.

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Speaker 1: If you're a parent, how do you work with a

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Speaker 1: child ten year old, fifteen year old to get them

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Speaker 1: to develop these skills when they become adults. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: so I have four kids and the oldest one is

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Speaker 1: twenty now, the next one is eighteen, then seventeen, and

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Speaker 1: then I got a little straggler at the end who's

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Speaker 1: only ten years old. So seeing all these leadership principles

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Speaker 1: applied inside my own family, and you know what, we

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Speaker 1: what we want to do. And this is a little

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Speaker 1: bit tricky because we and get emotional when it comes

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Speaker 1: to dealing with our own family. First of all, we

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Speaker 1: want to detach. We don't want to get emotional with

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Speaker 1: our kids. And the other thing is you want to

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Speaker 1: teach them how to lead. Let them be responsible for things.

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Speaker 1: Let them have them make their own peanut butter and

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Speaker 1: jelly sandwich, have them make their own lunch for school,

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Speaker 1: have them tie their own shoelaces. Have them be responsible

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Speaker 1: when they don't do something. Hey, i's guess what if

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Speaker 1: you didn't get up early enough to make your sandwich

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Speaker 1: for school, You're not going to have sandwich in school today.

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Speaker 1: Let them suffer the consequences. Look, do you let them

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Speaker 1: go and play in the road in the highway get

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Speaker 1: hit by a car? No, I'm not talking about that.

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Speaker 1: But I also often say about parenting that if you're

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Speaker 1: helping your kids, you're hurting them. You need to let

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Speaker 1: them brush up against the guardrails of failure. You need

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Speaker 1: to let them learn about taking ownership of things, being responsible,

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Speaker 1: and when they aren't responsible, when they don't behave correctly,

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Speaker 1: there's got to be some consequences. And usually the world

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Speaker 1: itself provides enough consequences for them to learn lessons. How

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Speaker 1: would you have categorized Hitler as a leader. Well, obviously

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Speaker 1: a very disturbed man first of all. But clearly he

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Speaker 1: was charismatic and he had a vision that he was

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Speaker 1: able to convince other people was correct. The problem, the

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Speaker 1: big mistakes that he made, like we've been talking about

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Speaker 1: all along, is he became an egomaniac, and so instead

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Speaker 1: of him listening to his great military advisors that he had,

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Speaker 1: he thought he was right and he made all the decisions. So,

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Speaker 1: hey General or hey hey Hitler, Hey mine fur we

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Speaker 1: should not fight the Russians at the same time we're

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Speaker 1: fighting the rest of Europe. No, we're going to invade Russia. Okay,

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Speaker 1: Well it didn't work out very well. That's the classic

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Speaker 1: example of someone's ego getting out of control, not taking

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Speaker 1: advice from their subordinate leadership, and the you know, they

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Speaker 1: end up losing the war if I mean, we're thankful

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Speaker 1: for this, but it was certainly his ego that became

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Speaker 1: a problem. Can leader a good leader be evil like

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Speaker 1: I would assume Hitler was evil as all get up

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Speaker 1: and insane, but he may have been, at least for

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Speaker 1: Germany as they were concerned, a good leader. Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and we see where it ends up. So eventually, if

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Speaker 1: someone is an evil person, their their leadership is going

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Speaker 1: to be ended because they're not doing the right things

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Speaker 1: for the right reasons and caves in on them going

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Speaker 1: to fall apart. Yes, exactly. And then you look at

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Speaker 1: other leaders, you know, people like John F. Kennedy, they

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Speaker 1: liked Ronald Reagan, they like people like that. Were they

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Speaker 1: good leaders? Do they have traits? Do they have certain

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Speaker 1: traits good leaders? Oh? Certainly good leaders. There's there's certain

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Speaker 1: traits that good leaders have. And you know, you know,

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Speaker 1: you look at Reagan and you look at Kennedy. There's

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Speaker 1: two good examples. Is that they're both very articulate, right

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Speaker 1: and are Being articulate is a trait that people have.

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Speaker 1: And the more articulate you are, the more clearly people

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Speaker 1: understand the message that you're trying to. So being articulate

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Speaker 1: is a very important trait. Can you become more articulate

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Speaker 1: over time? Sure, you know, if you lead and you

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Speaker 1: study and you practice speaking to people, you can become

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Speaker 1: more articulate. But just like you know, strength training, if

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Speaker 1: you're a weightlifter, there's some people that have more genetic

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Speaker 1: capacity to have more strength and there's some people that

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Speaker 1: have more genetic capacity to be more articulate, and there's

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Speaker 1: a bunch of different traits like that, and no one

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Speaker 1: is going to have, you know, exceptional traits across the

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Speaker 1: board that are all perfect. It doesn't happen. So what

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Speaker 1: you have to do as a leader, when you have

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Speaker 1: an area that you're weak in, then what you need

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Speaker 1: to do is build a team around you where you

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Speaker 1: have people on the team that complement your weaknesses with

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Speaker 1: their strengths. So if I'm in charge of our platoon

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Speaker 1: and let's say I'm not very articulate, and you're my

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Speaker 1: platoon chief and you're articulate, or I would find you

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Speaker 1: at the in the seal teams and say, hey, George

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Speaker 1: Nor he speaks really well. You can get his message

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Speaker 1: out very clearly. I bring you into my platoon. And

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Speaker 1: now when it comes time to put out the message

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Speaker 1: to the rest of the platoon, I say, hey, George,

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Speaker 1: here's what I want you to put out, and I

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Speaker 1: let you do that, and I put my ego in check.

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Speaker 1: Instead of saying, well, no, I want to do everything. No,

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Speaker 1: I say, you know what, George's a little bit better

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Speaker 1: than this at than I am, so I'm gonna let

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Speaker 1: George put out the work and now we have a

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Speaker 1: stronger team. We have stronger a stronger leadership team because

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Speaker 1: we work to to use our strengths to the benefit

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Speaker 1: of the platoon. Why don't schools teach this to kids?

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Speaker 1: You know, it's a great question. And when I look

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Speaker 1: at you know, like I said, I got four kids,

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Speaker 1: all gone through public schooling. There's a lot of things

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Speaker 1: that you wish that they would teach kids in school,

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Speaker 1: and they just they just don't do it. I think

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Speaker 1: over time, our education system it it it kind of

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Speaker 1: it kind of develops in a certain way, and certain

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Speaker 1: things drive whether it's whether it's testing, whether it's trying

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Speaker 1: to get into college. There's certain things that drive schools

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Speaker 1: to teach kids certain things, and I think over time

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Speaker 1: it's become a little bit distorted. I think so too. Yeah. Well, actually,

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Speaker 1: both my parents were school teachers, you know, high school,

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Speaker 1: high school teachers. My mom taught English, my dad taught history.

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Speaker 1: And I know there's a lot of great teachers, teachers

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Speaker 1: that my kids have right now. A lot of them

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Speaker 1: are great. But sometimes you look at it as a

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Speaker 1: whole and you say, well, you know, maybe these things

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Speaker 1: could be done a little bit differently. Do you do

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Speaker 1: many live events before companies? Yeah? You know that's so.

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Speaker 1: I have a leadership consulting company called Echelon Front, and

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Speaker 1: that is what we do. We go around working with

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Speaker 1: different companies getting their leadership, training their leadership on how

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Speaker 1: to lead, and getting getting leadership teams aligned so that

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Speaker 1: they can execute. Well, yeah, I do it all the time.

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Speaker 1: That's my job kind of take us through a course.

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Speaker 1: I mean, how do you handle it? You're you're in

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Speaker 1: front of all these these these company executives. Do you

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Speaker 1: call them up on stage? What do you do with them? So,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's it's a consulting firm. So what we

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Speaker 1: do is we go into a company and we will

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Speaker 1: spend time figuring out what it is that Well, first

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Speaker 1: of all, we figure out what the company does. But

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Speaker 1: once we've got that figured out, which I can take

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Speaker 1: very long, you know, we read they explain to us

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Speaker 1: what they're doing. But then what we do is we

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Speaker 1: spend time interviewing people on the team up any You're

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Speaker 1: not like the guys in office space, though, are you? I?

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Speaker 1: You know, I wouldn't quite say we're like the bobs

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Speaker 1: on office space and one of the things that is different.

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Speaker 1: So so consulting firms, you know, they look at what

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Speaker 1: kind of processes people have, They look at what kind

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Speaker 1: of what their p and l is doing, They see

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Speaker 1: what their numbers look like, and they analyze that stuff.

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Speaker 1: And we don't, you know, we look at leadership. That's

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Speaker 1: what we look at. And I'll tell you in any company,

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Speaker 1: in any organization, the problems that teams have, the problems

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Speaker 1: that businesses have, they're all leadership problems. So you show

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Speaker 1: me a company that has the p and l's aren't working,

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Speaker 1: I'll show you the people on that team that aren't

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Speaker 1: paying attention to be Who hires you, Who hires you

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Speaker 1: for the company, jocko? Is it the president or somebody

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Speaker 1: sees something wrong? So well, actually, actually I would say

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Speaker 1: eighty percent of the companies that we work with, our

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Speaker 1: companies that are doing well, that want to do better,

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Speaker 1: and they recognize that leadership is important as they're not

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Speaker 1: doing well. So it tells you right out of the

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Speaker 1: gate that they're humble. They've got an attitude where they're

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Speaker 1: looking and seeing, oh, we could make some improvements, which,

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Speaker 1: by the way, is why they're doing well. As a

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Speaker 1: company because they're humble, because they make adjustments, because they

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Speaker 1: don't think they know everything. So in those situations, it's

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Speaker 1: people inside the company, whether it's the CEO or someone

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Speaker 1: in the C suite or of some of the senior

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Speaker 1: management that says, oh, yeah, we can do better if

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Speaker 1: we improve our leadership. They bring us into those companies.

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Speaker 1: Those companies have open minds. They adopt what we're talking

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Speaker 1: about very easily. Sometimes, though, we work with companies where

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Speaker 1: there's a problem, and let's say it's the board of

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Speaker 1: the company that brings us in to fix the problem.

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Speaker 1: And guess what. In those companies, they don't think they

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Speaker 1: need help. Their egos are big, they think they're doing well,

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Speaker 1: but they're not. That's why we're being brought in. And

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Speaker 1: the very reason why they're not doing well generally is

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Speaker 1: because they lack the humility to say, oh, guess what,

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Speaker 1: maybe we're doing this wrong right now. But instead they're

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Speaker 1: pointing their fingers saying it's not us, it's the market,

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Speaker 1: it's not us. It's the union, it's not us. It's

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Speaker 1: our employees, it's not us, it's our competitors. And when

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Speaker 1: you just sit around and blame everyone else. Guess what,

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Speaker 1: you don't fix any of the problems, and that's why

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Speaker 1: the companies are going down. So most of the time

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Speaker 1: we work with companies that are doing well that just

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Speaker 1: want to do better. Occasionally we get brought into fixed

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Speaker 1: companies that are having problems, and usually those they're always

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Speaker 1: leadership problems, and a lot of times those problems are

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Speaker 1: sent around centered around the egos of the individual's leading

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Speaker 1: the team. I was going to say, are you met

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Speaker 1: with much resistance by any of them? Occasionally? And it's

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Speaker 1: it's usually the type of companies that are not doing well.

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Speaker 1: And once again, the reason that they're not doing well

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Speaker 1: is because the leaders already think that they're doing everything

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Speaker 1: right correct, even when they're losing millions of dollars. They

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Speaker 1: think it's not me, it's these other elements. It's the market,

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Speaker 1: it's the employees, it's the competitors. They will blame everybody else,

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Speaker 1: which means they don't take ownership of the problems, they

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Speaker 1: don't make any adjustments, and they continue to fail. And yes,

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Speaker 1: those individuals can bring resistance, and if I do my

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Speaker 1: job well, I'm able to show them themselves in a mirror,

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Speaker 1: let them see what the problems is they wake up

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Speaker 1: and they say, Okay, yes I'm the problem. Here's what

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Speaker 1: we can do to fix it. But with arrogant people,

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Speaker 1: even when they look in the mirror, they see perfection,

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Speaker 1: and so they can be challenging to fix them. And

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Speaker 1: those are the people that usually don't end up. Those

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Speaker 1: are the people that end up not making it and

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Speaker 1: we have to go out and bring in someone else

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Speaker 1: to leave the company. I'd love to use the example

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Speaker 1: of Blockhouse, a Blockbuster video. They had all these video stores,

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Speaker 1: they had the market all lined up, yet they were

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Speaker 1: sleep at the wheel and didn't see streaming video on

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Speaker 1: the horizon. Yeah, I mean, I forget the number, but

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Speaker 1: I think they had an opportunity to buy Netflix for

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Speaker 1: like ten million dollars. Ah, and they sat there and said,

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Speaker 1: and they had all the programming. Oh yeah, they had

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Speaker 1: everything they could they could, they could have and should have. Butt.

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Speaker 1: Once again, as you just pointed out, if you're arrogant

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Speaker 1: and you think, well, we're Blockbuster, no one can touch us.

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Speaker 1: We've got all these stores, we've got all these relationships

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Speaker 1: with Hollywood to get these movies. No one can touch us.

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Speaker 1: That's exactly what they thought. They didn't make any adaptations,

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Speaker 1: they didn't change as the market shifted, and they ended

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Speaker 1: up those thousands of stores that they had all over

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Speaker 1: the country all closed, all closed. That's right, I mean,

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Speaker 1: just crushed, crushed by Netflix and now Amazon's doing its thing.

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Speaker 1: Crushed by ego. Their own ego is very dangerous, isn't

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Speaker 1: it It is? Indeed, listen to more Coast to Coast

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Speaker 1: AM every weeknight at one a m. Eastern and go

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Speaker 1: to Coast to Coast am dot com for more