WEBVTT - Trust in Science, Politics, and Taylor Swift 0:00:01.280 --> 0:00:05.280 You're listening to the Bloomberg Opinion podcast counts Saturdays at 0:00:05.280 --> 0:00:08.400 one and seven pm Eastern on Bloomberg dot Com, the 0:00:08.480 --> 0:00:11.600 iHeartRadio app, and the Bloomberg Business App, or listen on 0:00:11.680 --> 0:00:13.760 demand wherever you get your podcasts. 0:00:15.880 --> 0:00:19.840 Welcome to Bloomberg Opinion. I Amy Morris. This week it's 0:00:19.880 --> 0:00:23.760 a matter of trust, trust in science and in scientists. 0:00:23.960 --> 0:00:27.479 We'll talk with Bloomberg's Faith Lamb, and we'll explore the 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:31.840 erosion of trust in politics in our country's institutions and 0:00:32.080 --> 0:00:35.320 where that might lead the country in an alarmingly short time. 0:00:36.000 --> 0:00:39.320 But we begin with Taylor Swift and her Era's tour 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:51.199 that took her through Brazil. The Grammy winner returned to 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:54.720 the stage in Rio de Janeiro. Here she is performing 0:00:54.760 --> 0:00:57.280 Bigger Than the Whole Sky. It's one of her surprise 0:00:57.360 --> 0:01:00.200 songs in that tour. It happened a day after she 0:01:00.240 --> 0:01:03.040 had to postpone her ERR's tour because of the extreme 0:01:03.120 --> 0:01:06.039 temperatures at the time. This also appeared to be something 0:01:06.080 --> 0:01:08.960 of a tribute to a fan who died reportedly in 0:01:09.000 --> 0:01:12.800 connection with that triple digit heat. The heat index reached 0:01:12.840 --> 0:01:16.760 fifty nine point seven degrees celsius at one point, that's 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:20.360 nearly one hundred and forty degrees fahrenheit. Let's talk about 0:01:20.360 --> 0:01:24.960 this with Bloomberg Opinion colonist Lara Williams. She covers climate change. Lara, 0:01:25.080 --> 0:01:29.280 those temperatures are insane. I had to double check those numbers. 0:01:29.880 --> 0:01:33.360 Yeah, they're ads the importantly, so that's the heat indebt. 0:01:33.440 --> 0:01:38.199 So it combines the actual heat, which was around forty 0:01:38.319 --> 0:01:42.399 degrees celsius one hundred and two fahrenheit, with the humidity, 0:01:42.880 --> 0:01:45.120 and that that's what really was made in The temperature 0:01:45.160 --> 0:01:48.520 is so dangerous. Just the heat humidity combination can be 0:01:48.560 --> 0:01:49.200 really really. 0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:53.560 Bad, and a fan actually passed away. Swift had trouble breathing. 0:01:53.600 --> 0:01:57.080 The tour had to be postponed. And as you point 0:01:57.080 --> 0:01:59.920 out in your column, this is not the first perform 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:03.480 means to be impacted by the effects of climate change. 0:02:04.360 --> 0:02:09.400 No, so Billboard has been keeping tally of major concerts 0:02:09.440 --> 0:02:11.919 around the world that have been impacted by extreme weather, 0:02:12.280 --> 0:02:15.840 and I think the count, not including the tailor concerts, 0:02:15.840 --> 0:02:20.160 actually was above above thirty. And you know, so that's 0:02:20.280 --> 0:02:25.600 you know, evacuations, cancelations, postponements, and it's you know, everything 0:02:25.680 --> 0:02:29.720 from you know, people being directly impacted by extreme rain, 0:02:29.919 --> 0:02:34.120 extreme heat. To Pearl Jam had to cancel three concerts 0:02:34.120 --> 0:02:38.200 because their lead singer got throat damage from performing in 0:02:38.240 --> 0:02:41.440 an outdoor concert in Paris and got affected by the 0:02:41.480 --> 0:02:44.680 heat and dust and wildlife smoke. So there are all 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:46.720 these kind of not on effects from climate change that 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:49.399 aren't even direct. It can be indirect as well. 0:02:49.760 --> 0:02:52.760 And you say thirty, at least thirty performances, and that's 0:02:52.919 --> 0:02:54.960 just this year, just. 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:57.520 This year, and that's just major ones that Billboard have 0:02:57.560 --> 0:03:00.360 picked up. So I'm sure there's been plenty of smaller 0:03:00.880 --> 0:03:03.160 gibs and you know, up and coming musicians that have 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:04.240 been affected. 0:03:03.840 --> 0:03:07.120 To I completely forgot about the wildfires too, that's crazy. 0:03:07.160 --> 0:03:10.920 So would this then help drive the message of climate 0:03:11.040 --> 0:03:13.680 change home? Or is any when listening or people just 0:03:13.800 --> 0:03:17.160 annoyed that their favorite show is being postponed. 0:03:18.120 --> 0:03:20.680 I'm sure lots of people were annoyed that their favorite 0:03:20.720 --> 0:03:23.280 show is being postponed. I know some people didn't make it. 0:03:23.360 --> 0:03:26.040 Saturday Night Dot postponed to Monday, and some people weren't 0:03:26.080 --> 0:03:28.720 going to be in Rio on Monday, so that was 0:03:28.760 --> 0:03:33.720 annoying for them. But I think kind of longer term, 0:03:34.000 --> 0:03:38.280 it really makes the point that we need to be 0:03:38.400 --> 0:03:42.160 able to adapt and have plans in place so that, 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:47.760 you know, concerts can go on without pausing. Danger to 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:55.280 life disasters happen when these extreme events hit preexisting vulnerabilities. 0:03:55.320 --> 0:03:59.400 And the important thing is that the tailor concert, probably 0:03:59.400 --> 0:04:03.400 the gig shd's have gone ahead. But also funds weren't 0:04:03.400 --> 0:04:06.600 allowed to bring their own personal water bottles into the show. 0:04:07.120 --> 0:04:11.280 There was reports of in azituit distribution of the free water. 0:04:12.680 --> 0:04:16.080 You know, funds complained that it was too crowded, and 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:20.560 so those things together really combined, you know, and potentially 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:23.000 led to the death of one fan. 0:04:23.720 --> 0:04:26.960 We are talking with Bloomberg Opinion columnist Lara Williams about 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:31.200 how climate change is impacting live tours and performances and shows, 0:04:31.960 --> 0:04:34.520 and you were talking about the adaptation that we're all 0:04:34.560 --> 0:04:38.120 going to have to see, and we're specifically targeting, of course, 0:04:38.200 --> 0:04:41.200 these live shows and these tours and these concerts in 0:04:41.240 --> 0:04:44.680 this particular interview. Venues are going to have to change 0:04:44.680 --> 0:04:46.880 those rules, like you said, allowing people to bring in 0:04:46.920 --> 0:04:49.560 their own water bottles, maybe even putting a disclaimer on 0:04:49.600 --> 0:04:53.240 the ticket about a climate change impact type of thing 0:04:53.520 --> 0:04:55.160 where you may or may not be allowed to get 0:04:55.200 --> 0:04:57.799 your money back, or trading your ticket for something else. 0:04:57.839 --> 0:04:59.880 That kind of thing are we going to see more of. 0:05:00.240 --> 0:05:05.279 Are you hearing any chatter or any hubbub about changing 0:05:05.320 --> 0:05:08.240 how the venues are able to do business based on 0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:11.440 the impact of climate change? And even as I say that, 0:05:11.440 --> 0:05:13.719 that sounds really remarkable. 0:05:14.320 --> 0:05:16.440 Yeah, I think I'm not hearing it. I've not heard 0:05:16.480 --> 0:05:19.599 anything specific to the music industry, but I think, you know, 0:05:19.680 --> 0:05:23.360 people are starting to pay attention and adaptation has been 0:05:23.880 --> 0:05:27.920 one of those forgotten you know, aspects of the kind 0:05:27.920 --> 0:05:33.600 of climate era. You know, Historically, adaptation was almost looked 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:37.080 down upon because people saw it as a controversial thing 0:05:37.279 --> 0:05:41.920 that was taking money and attention away from the you know, 0:05:42.240 --> 0:05:45.000 we need to reduce emissions, which is obviously still you know, 0:05:45.080 --> 0:05:47.839 really important, but we need to remember that climate impacts 0:05:47.839 --> 0:05:50.680 are already here and so we need to be able 0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:54.480 to adapt. And so, you know, you'd hope that stuff 0:05:54.520 --> 0:05:58.839 like this and high profile events being affected does make 0:05:59.120 --> 0:06:03.960 you know, venues pay attention and start putting together proper 0:06:04.000 --> 0:06:06.680 heat you know, and governments as well. This obviously has 0:06:06.720 --> 0:06:09.200 to turn from governments. Governments are also not very good 0:06:09.240 --> 0:06:12.760 at planning for you know, the physical risks of climate change, 0:06:12.800 --> 0:06:16.320 and either are companies. So I think the more we 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:18.239 talk about it, the more people are going to start 0:06:18.520 --> 0:06:22.480 building this into their kind of operations and you know, 0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:29.320 into laws. The Brazilian government actually reacted with emergency rules, 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:32.359 you know, to to ensure that venues have to provide 0:06:32.400 --> 0:06:39.760 water and have to allow personal water bottles into venues. So, 0:06:40.560 --> 0:06:43.679 you know, it's a shame that it took such a 0:06:43.720 --> 0:06:46.880 tragedy to kind of spark that, but to be fair, 0:06:46.920 --> 0:06:49.560 Brazil did respond very quickly over the weekend. 0:06:50.480 --> 0:06:53.080 Have we seen this before? Is this quite unusual? 0:06:53.480 --> 0:06:56.120 That's a good question. I mean we've seen lots, you know, 0:06:56.200 --> 0:06:58.680 as the billboard list shows that, you know, we've seen 0:06:58.720 --> 0:07:03.560 lots of uh, you know, climate impacts. We're burning, man, 0:07:03.800 --> 0:07:05.560 they all aren't rained in sure. 0:07:07.520 --> 0:07:10.400 Let me just clarify. That's for for this year, and 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:12.800 they've they've started doing a tally for this year. But 0:07:12.840 --> 0:07:15.760 we haven't seen tallies for years before, have we. I mean, 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:19.240 the idea that concerts and venues are having to change 0:07:19.280 --> 0:07:21.400 how they do business because of the impact of climate 0:07:21.480 --> 0:07:24.080 change seems really fresh and new. 0:07:24.800 --> 0:07:26.960 Yes, that's that's a good point. We haven't been paying 0:07:26.960 --> 0:07:31.440 attention to this before, and so in that way, and 0:07:31.600 --> 0:07:34.800 you know, to be fair, we've we've seen you know, 0:07:34.840 --> 0:07:37.520 the physical risks of climate change really comes to the 0:07:37.560 --> 0:07:40.640 fall in the last couple of years. We are we're 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:43.080 now in an El Nino year, which is you know, 0:07:43.320 --> 0:07:47.760 raising global temperatures and potentially you know, itsascerbating the the 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:51.800 you know, the the heat risk and extreme weather risks. 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:56.600 And I think, yeah, people's new that people are paying 0:07:56.680 --> 0:07:58.480 so much attention to adaptation. 0:07:58.840 --> 0:08:01.720 Can we expect to see more of this then, not 0:08:02.000 --> 0:08:06.640 just with concerts and live entertainment, but other organizations, companies, 0:08:06.760 --> 0:08:09.480 venues having to adapt. 0:08:10.040 --> 0:08:15.320 Yes, exactly. For you know, the SMP Global Corporate Sustainability 0:08:15.320 --> 0:08:18.400 Assessment is a kind of survey of thousands of companies 0:08:18.440 --> 0:08:21.560 around the world, and only one in five companies have 0:08:22.320 --> 0:08:25.440 an adaptation plan to you know, adapt their supply chains 0:08:26.440 --> 0:08:29.280 and operations to the physical risks of climate change. And 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:33.040 so we'll probably see a lot more companies. You know, 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:36.040 there's there's basically a lot of lots of companies need 0:08:36.080 --> 0:08:39.360 to touch up to the you know, the current climate 0:08:40.200 --> 0:08:44.240 and current climate change risks, and so we'll probably see 0:08:44.280 --> 0:08:46.600 that happen in the next year or so, and then. 0:08:46.480 --> 0:08:49.400 The flip side of this coin, it's actually quite true. 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:52.360 Swifties are really a force of their own. If they 0:08:52.440 --> 0:08:55.520 can't recruit more gen z ors to the climate change fight, 0:08:56.320 --> 0:08:59.040 if not Taylor Swift, then who I mean. It seems 0:08:59.080 --> 0:09:02.280 like this is well, it's an awful tragedy and it's 0:09:02.280 --> 0:09:05.000 a very difficult thing to face. At the same time, 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:08.960 enormous amounts of attention are being paid to it now. 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:13.079 Yes, no, exactly. I think one thing that could make 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:18.160 it even more impactful is if you know Taylor herself, 0:09:18.640 --> 0:09:21.600 we've talked about climate change, and you know, obviously it's 0:09:21.679 --> 0:09:23.680 very early on. She's in the middle of a global tour. 0:09:24.480 --> 0:09:28.079 I'm sure the events on Friday and you know, over 0:09:28.120 --> 0:09:30.600 the weekend have really affected her personally, and so I'm 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:33.040 not surprised that we haven't heard her speak out about 0:09:33.080 --> 0:09:38.600 it yet. But if Swifties and you know, Taylor Swift 0:09:38.600 --> 0:09:42.280 should talk about climate change and raise awareness, and that 0:09:42.320 --> 0:09:43.480 could be really powerful. 0:09:44.920 --> 0:09:47.240 You know, it almost seems like an opportunity for like 0:09:47.280 --> 0:09:50.000 a live aid, a band aid, some sort of concert 0:09:50.120 --> 0:09:54.240 or gathering to help raise awareness for the for the issue. 0:09:54.520 --> 0:09:56.880 Yeah, for sure. I think I have I have heard that, 0:09:57.040 --> 0:09:59.520 you know, people involved with Live Aid did want to 0:09:59.520 --> 0:10:01.680 do a clime at one and I think last year 0:10:01.720 --> 0:10:05.160 Billie Eilish, I think did there was a bid. There 0:10:05.200 --> 0:10:10.160 was a bid festival in maybe Paris or somewhere like 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:13.440 that for you know, to raise money and awareness about 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:17.000 climate change. But we can't. Yeah, we're just that. 0:10:17.400 --> 0:10:18.680 Momentum needs to continue. 0:10:18.679 --> 0:10:21.559 We need to keep the momentum going and so hopefully 0:10:22.240 --> 0:10:25.720 you know, something good will come out of this, and 0:10:25.760 --> 0:10:28.760 that's you know, more awareness well the needs for adaptation 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:33.680 plans and also more awareness someone gen Z about climate 0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:37.199 change and the very real risk that climate change poses 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:41.079 not only to you know, people in abstract time periods 0:10:41.120 --> 0:10:43.920 and countries, but you know, to their enjoyment of their 0:10:43.960 --> 0:10:44.600 own lives. 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:47.400 Really, Lara, thank you for taking the time with this 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:48.160 on this today. 0:10:49.280 --> 0:10:50.080 Thank you for having me. 0:10:50.200 --> 0:10:53.560 Bloomberg Opinion columnist Lara Williams covers a climate change and 0:10:53.600 --> 0:10:57.280 coming up. Science and trust in scientists is taking a 0:10:57.360 --> 0:11:00.840 hit in the United States. You're listening to Bloomberg Opinion. 0:11:09.800 --> 0:11:13.640 You're listening to the Bloomberg Opinion podcast count US Saturdays 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:16.800 at one and seven pm. Eastern on Bloomberg dot Com, 0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:20.000 the iHeartRadio app, and the Bloomberg Business app, or listen 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:22.280 on demand wherever you get your podcasts. 0:11:24.240 --> 0:11:26.640 You're listening to Bloomberg Opinion. I may me more as 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:30.480 science and trust in scientists is taking a hit in 0:11:30.520 --> 0:11:34.520 the United States, A new Pew Research Center poll finds 0:11:34.600 --> 0:11:38.640 that Americans trust and scientists continues to decline. Among both 0:11:38.720 --> 0:11:42.520 Democrats and Republicans, trust in scientists is now lower than 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:46.160 it was before the pandemic. Similarly, the positive views of 0:11:46.240 --> 0:11:50.199 science and belief in its positive effect on society continues 0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:53.320 to dip. Now, this is not a new phenomenon. During 0:11:53.320 --> 0:11:57.280 the pandemic, In Texas, pediatrician Christina Props made an appeal 0:11:57.320 --> 0:12:00.640 to the public to continue to take precautions to avoid 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:04.559 getting and spreading COVID, even after the state reopened businesses 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:06.119 and lifted mask mandates. 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:10.280 We are doing our part, and so it is really 0:12:11.640 --> 0:12:15.959 a painful experience to feel that our elected officials don't 0:12:15.960 --> 0:12:20.440 trust us, don't trust our expertise, and are not listening 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:21.280 to the science. 0:12:21.600 --> 0:12:24.760 But this is not all about the pandemic necessarily. Bloomberg 0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:28.040 Opinion columnist Faith Lamb joins me now Fay Cover Science 0:12:28.080 --> 0:12:30.439 and his host of the follow of the Science podcast, 0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:34.840 they where's this coming from, this distrust of science and scientists. 0:12:35.480 --> 0:12:38.959 Well, I think that there is a connection with the pandemic. 0:12:39.080 --> 0:12:42.319 The Pew Research Foundation just came up with some new 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:47.360 numbers where the public trust in science did take quite 0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:52.960 a dip from twenty nineteen to now. And you know 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:56.160 what else, what else seems likely to have changed. We've 0:12:56.240 --> 0:13:00.200 had this pandemic, We've had scientists telling people what to 0:13:00.200 --> 0:13:03.120 think and what to do. And I don't think it 0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:06.400 has anything to do with astronomers or physicists or other scientists. 0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:09.280 I think it has to do with medical science primarily, 0:13:09.320 --> 0:13:13.440 and public health and some of the missteps that public 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:15.040 health made during the pandemic. 0:13:15.600 --> 0:13:18.760 But this also crosses party lines, which is not something 0:13:18.800 --> 0:13:22.000 we saw during the pandemic. In fact, quite the opposite. 0:13:22.600 --> 0:13:26.559 Yeah, I think maybe over time it does. Republicans are 0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:34.160 less likely to trust scientists than Democrats, But I think overall, 0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:38.280 there have been some flaws in the way the pandemic 0:13:38.480 --> 0:13:42.439 was handled that the general public is more likely to 0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:43.600 be concerned about right now. 0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:47.440 Is this also a reflection of the muddying of the 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:51.240 message during the Trump administration, which was a very intentional thing. 0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:54.160 Or is there something else happening that has caused the 0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:58.120 public to continue to distrust science. Is this this a 0:13:58.200 --> 0:14:00.439 lingering after effect or is there more to it? 0:14:00.600 --> 0:14:02.679 I think there is more to it. In fact, one 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:04.200 of the things I'm going to be writing about in 0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:06.960 this column is a book that I really like. It's 0:14:07.040 --> 0:14:10.880 called Within Reason, and it's written by Sandra Galia, who's 0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:14.640 dean of public health at Boston University. And this book 0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:19.200 is just a really nice, sort of honest reckoning with 0:14:20.200 --> 0:14:24.040 what public health got wrong during the pandemic and why 0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:26.000 they got it wrong. And I had a very nice 0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:28.800 talk with him, and I think he has the humility 0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:32.120 to recognize that this might not be completely something wrong 0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:34.440 with the public. It might also be something wrong with 0:14:34.960 --> 0:14:39.640 the way scientists handled things. I think that there's been 0:14:39.920 --> 0:14:42.640 there have been a few editorials by scientists saying, well, 0:14:42.560 --> 0:14:44.560 what we've got to fix the general public so they 0:14:44.600 --> 0:14:47.960 trust us again. But I think that there is a 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:51.440 real place for self reflection. And I think one of 0:14:51.480 --> 0:14:54.640 the things that went wrong during the pandemic was what 0:14:54.680 --> 0:14:58.960 I call false false certainty. You know, when people were 0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:00.720 saying things when they did I didn't really know and 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:02.760 would say, no, we definitely know, you should do this 0:15:02.880 --> 0:15:05.640 or do that, and now you know in retrospect when 0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:07.360 they got things wrong, they said we didn't know. But 0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:09.480 then my question to them is, well you didn't know, 0:15:09.480 --> 0:15:12.560 why didn't you say you didn't know? And I saw 0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:14.960 that happened early in the pandemic. It wasn't just a 0:15:14.960 --> 0:15:17.400 flip flop on masks. There was a flip flop on 0:15:17.600 --> 0:15:20.520 how to think about the pandemic. So in January and February, 0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:23.160 there was actually a lot of evidence building out that 0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:27.800 the problem in China was incredibly disruptive and that the 0:15:27.880 --> 0:15:30.640 disease was spreading and that we could face a real problem. 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:33.480 But I was seeing editorials running in the paper saying 0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:37.040 seasonal flu is a bigger threat, you know, don't worry 0:15:37.080 --> 0:15:41.240 about this, And there was there should have been a 0:15:41.320 --> 0:15:47.400 huge effort at that time to prepare hospitals, to get 0:15:47.480 --> 0:15:51.200 ppe for all of the workers, to prepare the general 0:15:51.280 --> 0:15:55.240 public for a possible disruption, to give businesses in private 0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:58.760 citizens time to prepare for these lockdowns. But instead, even 0:15:58.800 --> 0:16:01.560 though the science didn't make a U turn, the science 0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:05.160 was evidence was building up, but the scientists did take 0:16:05.200 --> 0:16:08.040 a big u turn from don't worry to stay in 0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:12.160 your house. And yes, some of the restrictions they made 0:16:12.160 --> 0:16:16.280 also were counter to what scientific evidence was was building up. 0:16:16.320 --> 0:16:19.720 That there was already fairly early on and understanding that 0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:22.640 outdoors were safer than indoors. And yet we saw you know, 0:16:22.680 --> 0:16:25.640 playgrounds being taped up, and people, you know, police chasing 0:16:25.640 --> 0:16:28.840 people out of parks, and skateboard parks being filled in 0:16:28.840 --> 0:16:32.680 with sand, you know, stuff that was not following the science. 0:16:33.240 --> 0:16:36.280 And we are talking with Bloomberg Opinion colonist Faith Lamb 0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:39.600 about this new pole regarding trust in science and why 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:45.480 that trust is waning on a general level. Fay is 0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:48.040 trust in short supply across the board in the United 0:16:48.040 --> 0:16:50.440 States anyway, just not it is in science. 0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:50.760 It is. 0:16:51.240 --> 0:16:55.000 In fact, scientists were still more trusted than almost everybody else, 0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:59.760 including journalists. So what people really need isn't trust in 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:03.680 individual scientists, but trust in the process of science and 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:06.920 the methods of science. Things like clinical trials. Double blind 0:17:07.000 --> 0:17:09.880 clinical trials are actually designed as sort of an anadote 0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:13.760 to human fallibility in human bias. And the reason that 0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:18.000 science produces reliable knowledge for us all is the methods 0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:21.160 of science and the way this sort of group project 0:17:21.200 --> 0:17:24.120 of science keeps adding to that knowledge. But individual scientists 0:17:24.200 --> 0:17:28.040 are fallible and it's very hard to If we do 0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:32.920 develop trust in science, then our trust in individual scientists. 0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:36.400 How do people know which scientists are the right scientists? 0:17:36.400 --> 0:17:39.919 There are plenty of people that are considered outliers and 0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:44.520 even hucksters who have PhDs and mds behind their name, 0:17:44.760 --> 0:17:50.679 and so there's also a problem with fringe scientists. So 0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:54.879 I think understanding, you know, trust in the big picture 0:17:54.960 --> 0:17:59.400 science can help people recognize when scientists who are trustworthy. 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:04.600 Scientists who are trustworthy will point to the wider body 0:18:04.600 --> 0:18:06.800 of knowledge that is science, not try to say, oh, 0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:09.520 all of those scientists everybody else is wrong. I'm right, 0:18:09.640 --> 0:18:11.280 that's a red flag. 0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:14.520 So then the onus would be on the general public 0:18:14.600 --> 0:18:18.040 right to know the difference between science and pseudoscience and 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:19.000 just outright fraud. 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:22.240 Yeah, yeah, but they do know that evidence that you 0:18:22.520 --> 0:18:25.000 should come with evidence, you know, and if you're a scientist, 0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:28.880 you better have some really strong evidence evidence, and that 0:18:28.880 --> 0:18:33.199 there is a sort of connection between things we know, 0:18:34.000 --> 0:18:35.399 things that we've built. 0:18:35.200 --> 0:18:37.280 Up, knowledge we've known from the past. It's why those 0:18:37.320 --> 0:18:41.360 vaccines worked so as well as they did because they 0:18:41.359 --> 0:18:45.359 were built on years of biological experiments, and then they 0:18:45.400 --> 0:18:49.680 also had to go through clinical trials that were designed 0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:55.320 to flag problems and you know, make sure that they 0:18:55.359 --> 0:18:57.200 really worked the way they thought they worked. 0:18:57.560 --> 0:19:00.800 This isn't just distrust of scientists though this Paul also 0:19:00.840 --> 0:19:04.520 shows that Americans are questioning the positive role that science 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:07.800 has on society. Did that surprise you a little. 0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:10.480 Bit, Yeah, because that seems like, you know, we have 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:13.520 we're surrounded by so many things that are that are 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:17.880 made possible by our advancing scientific knowledge. But I think 0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:21.280 the pandemic may have left people so bitter that they 0:19:21.359 --> 0:19:24.680 may be reacting to that. You know, polls are it's 0:19:24.680 --> 0:19:28.159 sometimes it's hard to know without more detail where that's 0:19:28.200 --> 0:19:29.000 coming from. 0:19:29.800 --> 0:19:33.240 What can the scientific community do to win people back. 0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:35.600 It almost sounds like they need a pr campaign, But 0:19:35.640 --> 0:19:37.120 that just seems wrong. 0:19:38.040 --> 0:19:38.280 You know. 0:19:38.440 --> 0:19:41.119 I think that one of the things I really liked 0:19:41.160 --> 0:19:45.800 about this book Within Reason was the idea that science 0:19:45.880 --> 0:19:48.800 has to sort of rise above all of the politics 0:19:49.280 --> 0:19:52.560 and has to be self reflective, has to be honest 0:19:52.600 --> 0:19:56.240 about where they might have gotten things wrong and where 0:19:56.280 --> 0:19:59.960 some of the policies during the pandemic weren't completely science based, 0:20:00.240 --> 0:20:05.840 and that with that kind of reckoning and radical honesty, 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:09.679 that that is where trust I think could be re earned. 0:20:10.480 --> 0:20:13.800 Thank you, Faith. Faith Lem is a Bloomberg Opinion columnist 0:20:13.800 --> 0:20:16.560 who covers science and his host of the Follow the 0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:20.760 Science podcast coming up. Trust in politics, It's not a 0:20:20.760 --> 0:20:23.400 pipe dream. There is a measure of trust in our 0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:28.000 political system that is eroding to a perilous end. This 0:20:28.080 --> 0:20:29.040 is Bloomberg Opinion. 0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:41.840 You're listening to The Bloomberg Opinion podcast catches Saturdays at 0:20:41.840 --> 0:20:44.960 one in seven pm Eastern on Bloomberg dot Com, the 0:20:45.040 --> 0:20:48.159 iHeartRadio app, and the Bloomberg Business App, or listen on 0:20:48.240 --> 0:20:50.320 demand wherever you get your podcasts. 0:20:52.200 --> 0:20:55.399 This is Bloomberg Opinion. I Maymy Morris. There is a 0:20:55.480 --> 0:20:58.639 difference between the twenty twenty four election season and the 0:20:58.680 --> 0:21:01.280 election of twenty sixteen, now eight years ago. The race 0:21:01.320 --> 0:21:03.639 for the White House was won by a candidate who 0:21:03.720 --> 0:21:07.800 had categorized himself as an outsider, a businessman, someone different 0:21:08.160 --> 0:21:11.959 who would serve as a disruptor. But this election season, 0:21:12.160 --> 0:21:15.280 voters know who Donald Trump is and he's promising to 0:21:15.560 --> 0:21:19.640 build camps for migrants, purge the vermin from obstructing his endgame. 0:21:19.960 --> 0:21:23.560 He has praise for dictators, all while he's facing numerous 0:21:23.560 --> 0:21:26.439 indictments and legal entanglements that don't seem to slow him 0:21:26.440 --> 0:21:29.480 down at all. And the disconnect here might very well 0:21:29.520 --> 0:21:33.720 be a matter of trust. Bloomberg opinion columnist Clive Crook 0:21:33.880 --> 0:21:36.560 is a member of the editorial board covering economics, and 0:21:36.600 --> 0:21:39.480 he joins me now, and Clive, you have this really 0:21:39.480 --> 0:21:42.240 great column on the Bloomberg terminal. Your view is that 0:21:42.320 --> 0:21:45.679 Donald Trump could never really have gotten this far actually 0:21:45.720 --> 0:21:50.040 without Democrats unwitting assistants, in part because of their refusal 0:21:50.080 --> 0:21:54.359 to recognize the collapsing trust in this country. Can you 0:21:54.400 --> 0:21:55.040 expand on that? 0:21:55.400 --> 0:21:59.600 Yeah, I mean I think that made sense actually those 0:21:59.680 --> 0:22:02.480 time around, you know, when Trump was first elected, I 0:22:02.520 --> 0:22:06.440 think just as you say, you know, he campaigns an outsider, 0:22:07.080 --> 0:22:09.879 as something of a wreckor you know, someone who wouldn't 0:22:10.840 --> 0:22:14.520 about out to the rules, that would just you know, 0:22:15.280 --> 0:22:16.680 fix what needed fixing. 0:22:17.040 --> 0:22:22.040 And the fact that he succeeded before, you know, shows 0:22:22.080 --> 0:22:26.040 that people didn't really trust politics as usual. So I 0:22:26.040 --> 0:22:30.320 think that fact was already in play. But this time around, 0:22:30.359 --> 0:22:34.399 I think it's vastly more serious. I mean, to be 0:22:34.400 --> 0:22:37.359 honest with you, I wasn't that worried about Trump first 0:22:37.359 --> 0:22:39.800 time around. Perhaps I should have been, but I wasn't. 0:22:40.160 --> 0:22:43.320 I thought he'd betained by the system, you know, controlled 0:22:43.359 --> 0:22:46.680 somewhat by the system, and I think to a large 0:22:46.720 --> 0:22:50.439 degree he was. But I think it would be a 0:22:50.440 --> 0:22:54.360 big mistake to suppose he won't be any more dangerous 0:22:54.480 --> 0:22:58.600 next time. I think he's out for revenge for the 0:22:58.640 --> 0:23:03.359 way he's been treated by the system. And the astonishing 0:23:03.440 --> 0:23:06.520 factor is that he commends very wide support in the 0:23:06.600 --> 0:23:11.640 country and the people who are telling posters. But therefore Trump, 0:23:11.760 --> 0:23:15.480 having seen what's happened and having listened to what he 0:23:15.640 --> 0:23:21.160 said lately, they're basically expressing a complete lack of confidence 0:23:21.600 --> 0:23:23.679 in the system as usual. So I think as it 0:23:23.680 --> 0:23:28.600 were going into another Trump administration, it would be a 0:23:28.760 --> 0:23:33.159 much more destabilizing, much more dangerous prospect than it was 0:23:33.720 --> 0:23:35.959 last time around. And that is saying something. 0:23:36.359 --> 0:23:40.760 Do you believe that the electorate from the beginning didn't 0:23:40.840 --> 0:23:44.520